 Good morning. How's everyone feeling? Is it just me or does Defcon consistently get more energetic and more awesome every single friggin year? Like I know many of us think we're slowing down and we keep saying we're the old crowd and we're not kids anymore and yet Every one of those people who's older than me and just always thinking oh my gosh I don't know how I'm gonna handle Defcon this year That's the person I see it like 3 a.m. Still at the ninja party with a drink in each hand and one tape to their crotch So welcome welcome. Yes. This is boomstick foo. We did a little something like this at shmukan and it went over pretty well So we're gonna try it here with what's probably an even more fire arm receptive audience Let's start off very quickly what we're gonna do is blast through some slides very fast to get everyone kind of up To speed if you're not a real veteran of weapons You're not gonna be after these slides But you're gonna know enough to have some sense about some things and we're gonna try to pepper all your minds with questions Because this is all about the Q&A we want to hear what you want to know And I want my esteemed panelists to be able to give you all the information you crave. So starting out How many people are gun owners? All right How many of you shoot regularly Almost all the same hands. I like that. How many of you have ever had to use a firearm defensively? Present or pull the trigger. Let's say okay, and How many of you are considering a purchase of a piece of steel? Maybe you want another one? Maybe it's your first one How many people want to just always buy them? Okay? That's the reason I don't have any tattoos by the way because the two addictive things in life I've heard are firearms and tattoos and I have a six-month rule that I give myself So every six months I'm gonna buy one and I keep frigging choosing guns All right, well those people considering a purchase how many are considering their first purchase possibly All right, we hope to give you some lot of good knowledge on this what this talk is gonna be about It's gonna be about defensive firearm ownership. It's not gonna be about storming ahead You know into the brigades and the breach it's gonna be all about staying within the law keeping your hardware legal Keeping yourself legal keeping out of trouble speaking of staying out of trouble and out of problems Let's cover the four rules of firearm safety which everyone should know First of all you always always always treat a weapon as though it is loaded even if you are sure it is not You always keep the weapon pointed in a safe direction never where you wouldn't want to fire You always are aware of your target and what is beyond it people often forget that one and last but not least your finger Is always off the trigger until you're ready to shoot So what's wrong with this picture here? Besides the fact that Michael Douglas is illegally brandishing a fully modified automatic intratech in a fast food restaurant You know, he's got his finger on the trigger exactly anyone who's seen knows what happens He puts some rounds through the ceiling keeping your finger off the trigger is very very important every accident I've ever seen has been with somebody who was holding a weapon with their finger on the trigger for no earthly purpose Yeah, guns don't just go off. Yeah, you have to tell them to So why why choose to own guns in the first place? That's one of the questions a lot of you know anti-gun people will often ask you It's not about bad neighborhood. It's not about. Oh my god. I'm gonna be a victim and I have to stand up I mean it's partly that but it's not like you're living in fear. That's not why we own guns You hope for the best life you can ever have but you have to be prepared I believe and most of us believe for those unforeseen horrible circumstances and the worst Circumstances can get pretty bad in an unforeseen way. Think about what would happen if you lived somewhere Where there was just a mass civil unrest or the riots after the floods or an earthquake These are things that even in a nice perfect safe community you may face one day You may face a breakdown in order and even when order is not fully broken down What is the cops responsibility to you in society? None the cops do not have a legal obligation to prevent crime and prevent violence against you they respond to it And that has been backed up by the Supreme Court and numerous state level cases The police are their job is to respond to crime after it has happened It's not their job to proactively protect you and they're not under any legal obligation to do so except under rare Circumstances where you are under police custody such as maybe like an informant that's pending to go to trial But for the most part if you are just the average citizen and you say hey There's a guy at my front door with a gun he's kicking it in and the cops don't get there in time Yeah, not their fault. They're not obligated So what are we going to discuss? Yes, yes, this isn't really about hunting hunting is its own separate category, you know That's that's also a lot of people latch on to that. They say well, of course. I support gun ownership I'm a sportsman. It's not necessarily about sport. It's about much more than that You don't want to get bogged down in that argument. So what? Yes, the second amendment does not say game animals We're gonna talk about weapons. We're gonna talk about ammo. We're gonna talk about keeping yourself up to speed We're gonna talk about what you have to have in your head. We're also gonna keep you as safe and legally, you know Out of jail as we can Quickly weaponry three types of weapons. Most of you should know this. There are rifles. There are shotguns There are handguns if you're talking defensively rifles are basically off the list You're not defending a huge patch of land from a platoon of hostiles. You're a guy, you know standing in your living room Shotguns and handguns are really what it boils down to in a defensive weapon situation and there's a lot we can say about each Be aware there's different actions and styles many of you may know but for those who don't shotguns can be pump or auto loading Don't even discount the old-fashioned, you know double barrel nice little hammer gun so that you can keep ready all the time We call that the get off my porch shotgun. Absolutely If you don't have any weapons at all if you're literally just saying hmm I think I would like to buy a weapon for defense one day the same thing we tell everyone Everyone for your first one if you don't have any special needs Remington 870 or the Mossberg 590 family most reliable shotguns ever We got a hold hold. I'm sorry hold questions. We're gonna kick through these real fast There's so many ways you can customize you can work out some accessories to your shotgun you can put a light on it You can you know size saddle the shells you can sling it don't modify your guns too much will tell you why But you know, there's a lot of options there handguns You should just know a pistol is not a revolver You should understand the distinction if you don't you know will explain it to you further Just don't be afraid to ask and there's benefits and kind of pros and cons of each revolvers are very reliable They're not going to jam. They're very simple if you're not comfortable with weapon technology You'll be able to handle it. You can also store it ready. You can have you know, no spring pressure whatsoever You can leave it stored for as long as you like a pistol However an auto loading pistol is going to give you more rounds going to give you faster reloads But you may not be able to store that in a drawer forever at the ready because you've got springs compressed particularly in the magazine Speaking of keeping things safe and ready always keep maintenance in mind You're never just going to buy something and throw it literally in a drawer forever You want to make sure it's clean? You want to make sure it's taken care of you want to clean it after you shoot every time Ammunition I want you to guys to ask a lot of questions of my panelists about this one ammunition is the second biggest Consideration other than the actual make and model of what you're going to use Ammunition should be you know thought of essentially not too big and not too small if you're going to be shooting a handgun Something too small is not going to do the job. You need it to do something too big is going to make a you know Big boom, but you know, it's overkill. You don't need a 454 Kassoul to defend your house. Oh, it would be fun Shotguns I can give you a whole host of crazy statistics, but it boils down to get a 12 gauge There's ammo for it out the ass. There's so many different versatile ways of loading them and handling them It's the cheapest. It's the easiest the patterning and crush cavity. You don't even need to know about Think about and please ask us about preventing over penetration Just because ball ammo is cheap and you shoot it at the range doesn't mean you just use full metal jackets at you know Defensive situation you want to prevent going through walls you want to prevent going through one person and hitting the person behind them You also want to avoid legal trouble, however, which can be presented with you really crazy ammo. No, it's going to tell you about that Also consider just because we're talking about lethal technologies You should never think lethality as an exclusive path of action less than lethal solutions are good to be familiar with They're good to have available to you They protect not only the assailant not like that's your main consideration But it's you never want to take life if you don't have to but they also protect you they protect your well-being they protect Your family if it's your you know drunk uncle who staggered in your house at two in the morning Maybe it's better to pepper spray him instead of just start blasting away and God forbid you ever actually have to Escalate a situation to a lethal level if you had already applied less than lethal force It's a very very big legal concern. You took every step you could to prevent harm Don't just leave your weapon stored as we say always just find a good range The ranges are always easy to find you can definitely find a good one near you find out what you're allowed to do there You know don't just you know pop pop pop at the target find out if you can draw from a whole store or not Find out if you can tactical reload find out if you can do rapid fire Talk to the people around you ask what courses. Maybe they've taken there's a lot of defensive shooting courses ask my panelists about those Even if you're practicing consider you're not just practicing with your lethal ammo by the way if you have how many people have pepper spray How many people have ever actually used it just to see what it would do just like on the outside somewhere if you You know it's just makes as much sense is not owning a you know a gun and never practicing See what kind of stream comes out of that is it going to be a nice ballistic stream Or is it going to get caught by the wind and blow back in your face? Is it going to be able to be aimed at a distance or not put one or two pumps off? You know they only cost a couple of bucks those little canisters practice with them, too Yes, another really good thing for a woman to carry as a non-lethal weapon. Is it tell us stopping baton? It's something you can carry in your purse in your pocket and and just pull it out and whack Whoever it's a nice deterrent to be you sit with it Whack whoever Yes, as we mentioned just one weapons are and strap so it's not easily taken away from you But the one weapons can be yeah legality is a much bigger issue note We're kind of talking to pepper spray is usually very legal stun guns not often is legal and blunt swinging weapons can often get you into legal hassle There are many psychological considerations Not just the psychology of not looking like a victim, but actually the psychology of what would happen if you actually had to take a life It's not something just a gloss over it's something you need to think about for yourself When you make a determination whether or not you could ever use a weapon defensively a CCW obviously a concealed carry permit if you're carrying your weapon on the streets not just in your home or business is Going to increase the stakes it's going to maybe if you have the wrong personality you might get twitchy Oh my gosh, am I am I always on the lookout for crime because now I've got my gun on me? Think about what's going on in your mind Brief legal notes always this really boils down to always follow the law Do not skirt the law just because you don't like the law plenty I think all of us up here hate most of the gun laws that are out there with good reason But you got a friggin follow them you can wind up in so much shit If you don't not just in the sense of a slap on the wrist prosecution We're talking hard time vindictive da's maybe not just losing the weapon you were carrying where you weren't supposed to But losing your whole collection losing your rights to purchase future weapons Always always be aware of the law and Thorne I think in a minute is going to tell you about what you need to be aware of legally and jurist I'll tell you as well if you ever actually have to fire. Yeah, give you an idea federal gun law Like illegal possession of an unregistered machine gun Mandatory ten years and federal pound me in the ass prison And that's on top of whatever state laws you might have broken So you might get out ten years later only to go back and then have to do your state time on top of it They definitely don't do the slap on the wrist thing when it comes to guns One last time four rules of firearm safety. Let me hear him. You always treat weapons. How? Always treat as they're loaded you always make sure you're pointing where Never where you wouldn't want to fire you always be aware of what? Be your target and beyond it and you always keep your finger where? Off the trigger exactly. That's all it is for me. I thank you. Here's my esteem panel So you're gonna and see this thing take questions or yeah, I guess we can do we get a can we get an introduction of who we all are Hi, I'm noid. I'm the director of physical security for DEF CON Also a big fan of guns got a lot of them I was asked to be on this panel because I have done I've been into guns for a long time I do a lot of training. In fact, I've worked as a range officer supervising law enforcement training before Been done hunting that kind of thing I'm also pretty rabid about This country's gun laws and why they're wrong and why they don't work and how attacking law abiding citizens Is not the solution when you're trying to attack criminals. So I was asked to be up here because of my knowledge of guns and my And mouse and I'm dead sexy mouse our female perspective I'm mouse. I'm a grad student. Um, I've grown up with weapons and Have a rather fondness of them and I've been asked to provide a female perspective on Personal safety Thank you and our law enforcement voice Hi, I'm a thorn. I did 20 years law enforcement. I've been in a couple of shooting situations The last five years of my career. I was doing major crime scene investigations Seen a lot of people shot. So I know both sides of what happens with this stuff And from putting the cuffs on to keeping them off jurist our lawyer I'm jurist. I'm an attorney in the state of Missouri. I'm not your attorney Sorry, I've got to give the disclaimer I'm not your attorney. Nothing that I say should be considered legal advice and Nothing I should say should be considered to create a legal relationship. I'm also a firearms enthusiast and I I'm what happens after things go very pear-shaped. So All right, I don't know if we have any crowd mics or you just want us to repeat the questions But stand and stand and be recognized if you'd like to ask something, please This is all this is the rest of the talk is all you we've got 45 minutes for whatever you want to know Yes Okay, the question was about improvised weapons like let's say using a nice heavy mag light as a you know a defensive club as it were Yeah It's not easily concealable in a purse though Yeah, it's also with the same time though one advantage to that is I've worked security before and One thing you do get out of that is whenever you bring a weapon into play you escalate a situation And the nice thing with weapons that don't necessarily look like them such as the five-cell mag light is the fact that you could have it On you it's available, but just by having it You have not increased the hostility in this particular situation Who else? Yes, sir The question was it for less than it's important We always say less than lethal ammunition because it can sometimes be lethal But um, yes, there's there's plenty of options there with anyone like I know I have some thoughts on that But anyone else as well Yeah, I Used pepper spray a couple of times out on the streets when I was in uniform And I'll tell you that stuff takes the fight out of people like amazingly quickly You can have like a huge guy ready to take you on. I'm not that big. I mean, I'm five ten He's talking rubber buckshot, you know plastic bullets. Okay plastic bullets. That stuff does not work Generally out on the streets those types of bullets. Um, you can use them for crowd control and they're very Controlled circumstances, but it's tough to do it right. So yeah, a lot of my friends disagree with me But um for my home defense shotgun, I loaded up with what I'll call a graduated tube I keep it ready not loaded, but I keep a rack of rounds right next to it And they're basically all just police buckshot, but two rubber buckshot topper rounds So if I load the tube up, I top the tube off with the two less than lethal rounds, which are the first ones that cycle through I Can therefore it's more honestly It's more for my protection and my own psychological consideration than anyone who may be an assaulting my family or myself I would have much much less regret pulling the trigger in the heat of the moment Knowing that the first couple rounds are going to be a hornet's nest as opposed to lead But once you've broken that barrier once you've already, you know fired away Stung the hell out of someone knocked him over and they're still very much behaving improperly I would have no regrets at that point cycling through the rest of the tube The question was can you get them for pistols? Yes, but there is a very big consideration in that Something like an auto-loading pistol is probably not going to cycle properly with the less than lethal round It's not going to have the appropriate back pressure to operate the slide. So in a revolver, yes It's possible, but be very aware which way your cylinders rotating in the revolver You're making sure you're pulling the first one out that you expect And also like an auto-loading shotgun would be the same thing You're probably not going to cycle an auto-loader fully, but a pump shotgun. You're not going to have that kind of a concern I saw a hand here, but this is actually to add on to that to also realize that less than lethal Things like rubber bullets and stuff can kill somebody. So there was that gal I believe it was up in Seattle about a year ago who got shot in the head by a cop with a rubber bullet and it killed her Dead So be aware that if even if you've presented a weapon you're possibly going to have to use force Realize that even you're non-lethal or you're less than lethal First couple of rounds may end up having that effect. So it's something to take into consideration And even though more they're more expensive practice with a few rounds of them as well Especially in a shotgun seat, they're going to pattern a lot differently than your other rounds will There was a hand. I'm sorry. There's one hand behind you. Then we'll get you. Yes, sir So so choke and all different shotgun rounds and loads well When it comes to you know the type of engagement where you know say you're in your house And you got to potentially shoot somebody breaking in Everything from number seven bird shot and up is Probably going to do the trick When it comes to chokes, obviously you're in a enclosed environment. I'd go with a full choke Keep a nice tight pattern. You don't have to worry about really punching through Slugs I'm always kind of hit or miss on The one because to me one of the advantages of having a shotgun for a defensive situation is the fact that you don't have to Be as accurate you can create You know if it's 3 a.m. You're half asleep. You got the flashlight in one hand you Aren't going to be that accurate and I'd rather have say the buck shot pattern out versus Storing a couple of solid slugs through my wall potentially into my neighbor's house. Yeah over penetration with slugs is a big problem Oh, yeah, my neighbor Be aware just for the record. I'm an NRA recruiter an NRA range safety officer and My next door neighbor is the president of my state's largest anti-gun organization Yeah, party spun You can have all the legal grounds to fire a weapon like you know The assailant is in your home with a butcher knife and an affidavit saying I'm here to rape and murder you and If you used ammunition not not a DA might say, oh you should have considered you you over if you actually You know a round goes out your house and a slug of a slug will go through, you know A brick wall a cinderblock wall or something if you penetrate your neighbor's home or God forbid you hit someone else who was not the intended target You can be prosecuted especially for a negligent homicide or a manslaughter charge if they someone tries to make the case that you should have known better You shouldn't have used that ammo Yeah, I got one point about that too. I Went to two homicide scenes over a course of a couple of years where there are shotguns involved One scene Was a girl got taken out by a 12-gauge slug that had already traveled through one wall hit her Passed through her and went through like four other walls before it got stopped The other one that I went to some years later was a guy who took one shot of Birdshot in the chest and that dropped him like a I mean it just he went down like sack potatoes There was no penetration beyond his body. So, you know Those were both one-stop shots, but one went far beyond and the other one just stopped right there, so Yeah, and something else about ammo selection. We were discussing this in the green room earlier When choosing the ammo you're going to either carry as a concealed weapon or keep in the house Basically if you get yourself into a situation where you've had to defensively use your firearm and you were completely in the right You're still going to get charged They say it's going to cost you about 10 grand Usually to get the whole thing taken care of and what's going to happen is without fail You're going to get some DA who is going to portray the victim as an innocent crackhead just scavenging for televisions and you as You know the right wing gun loving can't wait to kill a human being type of person and one of the things that's come up In the past is people using say Handloads people that are hand loaders do it because it's cheap or you can make your own batch ammo They will try to play that as you are trying to develop the most lethal painful horrible thing possible Yeah, hack your ammo basically So one of the things I've done in the past is when trying to select defensive ammo. I asked the cops Say officer, what do you carry in your duty weapon? So in the event you ever have to use that You know, what kind of what kind of rounds do you carry in your shotgun? What kind of rounds do you carry in your pistol that way in the event you ever get in one of these situations? Your fallback could always be well. Why did you pick this evil peddled hollow point Tugston core? That's what the cops carry and Kind of negates the argument at that point because you're trying to be safe Yes, indeed Can we stand up to say I feel like I'm not quite seeing everyone this gentleman's waiting a while as this one Can we get one and then two? protection That sounds like a question for the lawyer Any kind of any kind of training is actually going to hold you to a higher standard The question is you is going to Getting training is that going to give you any kind of greater level of legal protection? Honestly, no any kind of training is actually going to hold you to a higher standard If nothing else just because you know more, you know You know better essentially So the so no, yeah There was a question here though it is required for your concealed carries You know if you're going in some states in some states and definitely on the east coast How many people have concealed carry permits? You've been very patient sir I would imagine once a baton always a baton Yeah, the question was what if you top one of these telescoping batons with a with a light Is it just a very versatile flashlight No, once a baton always a baton Although speaking of lights those of you who you know who equip a home defense weapon How many of you have a light mounted to it of any kind and those who do not how many would foresee Flipping a light on in the middle of the night if you had to confront somebody or would you would you just try to seize the scene? Something to consider. I saw a hand that's been up over here a few times The legality of changing stocks on a rifle or or any weapon is probably good to mention here largely depends on the state you live in In some places changing the stock out on a weapon might give it some of these evil features that go against certain state laws Overall like for example if I was in California and I were to you know put a Folding stock on a weapon That would make it illegal because apparently folding stocks somehow make criminals more Dangerous There are others but at the same time though where I live in the state of Washington It's no big deal provided that you still meet the federal overall length requirements So if for example was it 26 inches or 28 inches for shotguns The shotguns are 26 overall but 18 in the barrel. Yeah So, yeah, if you if you cut your barrel down on a shotgun to like and by the way You never ask a Smith to cut it down to 18 because the feds they have these horribly inaccurate rulers. I don't know where they buy them 18 and a quarter I would say or even 18 and a half is probably you want to give yourself plenty of room Just ask Randy weaver. Yeah, but then what if you suddenly say you switch out the pistol You know you put a pistol grip on the back of it all of a sudden whoops You're under the limit and defense do they measure diagonally? Do they measure this way? Well, no, they measure whatever way is going to fuck you if that's what they're trying to do There was a hand So the question about training and fatigue Yeah, first off. Yeah, not the weapon problem. The question for everybody was reducing fatigue while training You know sore shoulders sore fingers that kind of thing first off, you know use a weapon. You're comfortable with You know, I know people it'll go out to the range with their you know 460 weathering magnum Yeah, you're not going to fire more than a couple of rounds out of that before you're done for the day There are pads and stuff you can get like trap shooters have them. They go over your shoulder I don't recommend training with those because in the event you had to use your gun defensively. You're not going to put that on Mounting the weapon properly having it up against your shoulder properly Will reduce that? The other thing too is practice When I first got into shooting some larger caliber rounds, I'd come home at the end of the day with purple shoulder and Now I'm at the point where you give it to me. I can fire it and not bruise and that's because you know I'm holding the gun properly, but on top of that too It's just it's your muscles eventually build up and you practice and it doesn't get as hurdy after a while Yeah, and don't drag it out into an all-day thing too because you're going to get fatigued and as you get fatigued You're going to become less accurate and at that point you're just you throw on the lead down range You're not training. You're not practicing. Yeah, one of my friends who's actually here in the audience We recently found another range to go to one day a nice outdoor range But they had a policy of three second lag between any firing no matter what you're firing They had this very strict rapid-fire policy and we realized that we were getting just as good a training session in and Not fatiguing ourselves and saving a ton of frickin money because 45 is not cheap and You know, yeah, you don't have to sit there and rapid-fire your whole mag over and over and over You can actually stop break pause each time and you'll save your muscles and you save your wallet Lot of hands. I feel like I'm missing people in the wings So there was this one will go one two and then three and then we'll get in the back What was the hypothetical you want Okay, so what what would your response be if you were in God forbid a public mayhem or carnage situation and you were carrying I'd Confront I consider it if I've made the decision to carry a firearm. I consider it kind of my obligation in that point Provided it's safe to do so a good example would be the Tacoma mall shooting There was an individual who worked at the cutlery store who had us concealed weapons permit Had a concealed weapon. He actually ended up taking three rounds from an AK-47 trying to draw the gunman's fire away from people even though he had no intention of shooting because the You know these like we say, you know be aware of your target and what's beyond beyond that You know beyond him was a wall the gunman just fired at him Gunman wouldn't have cared if there was innocence behind him anyways in his case He couldn't return fire Because there was a whole mall full of people running for their lives And he didn't want to miss the gunman and strike a civilian or an innocent person And in that case though He still stood up and considered it his duty to try to protect and he drew fire effectively allowing other people to escape There's a woman in Texas a very strong advocate for for gun ownership who tells a story about Going to a local restaurant with her parents the lovey massacre and she had she had her gun in the car and someone came in and Just began random shooting if she had had been able to carry that gun on her She would have shot the gunman. She had it. She couldn't go get it. She lost both of her parents I believe that if you are going to carry you have an obligation to protect those who aren't She's a congresswoman now. I believe right either at the state or federal level She helped pass and reform a lot of the carry laws in Texas Senator state and perhaps that the Virginia The university shootings might have fewer people would have died. Maybe some would have but fewer Any other comments on that hypothetical All right, I actually I'm sure some of you may have heard of the shooting in Kansas City at the mall and that's actually very very close to my home and Got me kind of thinking about that Very issue, but what you have to realize and it's it's it's just like when you decide that you do get that concealed carry permit Is the step that you're taking and the responsibility that you're taking on? you know getting involved is certainly raising something to a to a to a higher level and And and getting involved in seeing that something is going on Even if you are in the same mall and you hear that something is going on and you walk to that situation You've got to realize that you're legally you you are treading on on a pretty fine line here As far as as far as what that response is, you know by you walking in that general direction Knowing that there is trouble is that more reasonable than Simply walking away whether you whether you have a weapon or not Because you're probably going to be viewed as if from a as if you don't mean by walking to that situation That may be viewed as being unreasonable and you not acting in self-defense whenever you draw that weapon See so you really really have to Have to think through before you take any kind of actions in any kind of situation like that Jurors could you and thorn and anyone else who would care to talk about your legal what you should legally expect after you're ever In such a situation Yeah, if you are ever involved in a shooting situation and The best thing you can do is couple of different things one expect to be arrested you will be arrested you will be cuffed You will probably be Miranda rise at some point The best thing I can tell you to do even if you are absolutely 100% in the right. It was a mad junkie at 3 a.m. Coming in your home and you were shooting protect your wife and kids Silence up demand to talk to an attorney you have that right and Most of the time the cops will understand what you're trying to do you're trying to protect yourself legally Um demand to talk to a lawyer if you have to make any statement at all I would advise against it But if you have to make any kind of statement at all you feel you that you should say that you were in fear for your life Or you're in fear for the life of other people Whoever they might have been that you were defending The cops will understand this they know what's going on. They know what the score is they have a job to do They are going to want to talk to you with your lawyer And I would advise you could make a statement after talking to your lawyer and working out that statement with your attorney, but Expect that to happen The other thing that's going to happen is initially if you're still standing there with a weapon Expect the cops are not necessarily going to know you are the good guy in the situation They're going to walk in and there's someone lying there bleeding on the ground. You're standing there with a gun They're going to be a bit excited Okay, they are going to be screaming, you know drop the gun, okay Put the gun down at that point. They are the ones taking control of the situation They're the ones taking control of the scene and at that point comply with everything like I said expect to be arrested You'll be cuffed. You'll be stuffed in the car. You'll be taken to the station at some point They'll will randomize you your investigators will come in and talk to you Talk to your lawyer first. That's the best thing to tell you I Would I would agree to put in the words of another attorney that I worked for once a night in the banking never hurt anyone Once if you're involved in any kind of situation like this You're obviously going to going to jail for at least you know at least for that first evening and I would say, you know even even No matter what no matter how strongly you believe that That you were in the right no matter what exercise your right to not speak to not make a statement until you speak with your attorney Get your attorney there as quickly as possible You know you may be Miranda is at many different points, but the fact of the matter is we all know we all know the Miranda warning so go ahead and Exercise that right to to not make a statement and and until you have your attorney present that way he can make sure the that that everything You going on to the record is is is the best possible because it is so much easier on the from the legal side to deal with things beforehand and not have statements on the record the there it is to try and You fix issues later on and no matter what And well a lot of it's I feel bad I feel that it's we're getting hard to manage who has which questions and I know we don't have Crowd mics, but could you kind of queue up in the aisles so we can get it get a feel for which order people are in and how we're Doing on time we're still pretty good on time and we want to we want to get to everyone But come on up queue up kind of in the aisles if you have a question I want to say Yeah, the gentleman just points out the psychological implications and the considerations in a snap you your body and your mind will know You're not at a range if you have to do this in real life Is there any training or any other tactics you would like to talk about that can help bridge the divide and and not You know just not just shooting at paper forever. Maybe IGPA things like that Yeah, that actually something along those lines too is the habits when you go into that defensive situation You are in reptile brain mode. You're going to do what you train and I think one of the Cases I've heard brought up by a number of cops was an incident that occurred in the late 70s where individual law enforcement officer back when they all carried the 38 revolvers Would go to the range so those little paper cup down put five rounds down range open the cylinder knock the shells up Put them in the cup load up do that to save his brass got into a situation where he actually got into a gunfight and Ultimately got killed in the gunfight and what ended up happening was is after he'd ripped five rounds out of his revolver sat down Pop the cylinder open put the rounds into his hand rather than you know Let him hit the ground pop a speed loader in and get back into the game He basically did what he did at the range. He popped them out into his hand set them down criminal shot him in the head Yes, they had these CHP new-haul shooting Yeah, they had the officers collect their brass so Yes, sir Gun guns for females wives and girlfriends to your nearest range And rent a bunch of guns just rent a whole bunch of various pistols Revolvers and let them try things of different calibers some of them. They're gonna love some of them. They're gonna hate I Got to try laszlo. He's somewhere in the back here. I think got to try his Kimber 1911 and that felt perfect in my hand But then then I tried Chris Chris Miller's Glock what was it? Glock same caliber of 45 and I That gun scares me that's that's too much weapon for me So what they have to try it and they have to pick the one that's right for them our hands are different sizes Body mass has because what's gonna throw you back? What isn't the sights are different and and the grips on on the pistols in the Revolver feel different. So you have to have the one that fits your hand, right? For my carry piece 40 caliber Glock 23 if 40 40 caliber was actually unless I'm wrong. No, you'll know this and thrown probably wasn't 40 caliber design specifically at the request of law enforcement who was equipping female officers and smaller Gentlemen officers who wanted something it's a download of 10 millimeter. Yeah something more than a nine, but not a 45 But yeah, also as a range of yes, I when I worked as a range officer I used to see a lot of different kinds of people come up and shoot and Frequently what I noticed is when it came to girls in shooting is The guys that would take them out would either think it's funny to put the biggest gun They could find in their hands Which I've never understood because that just guarantees that you're never gonna get to go shooting again because she's not gonna let you But on top of that what ends up happening is a seems like a lot of guys would come out that they wouldn't take the Time to work with the girls and it was always this sort of you know I'll tell you what the right gun for you is and it doesn't work that way It doesn't work that way for guys, you know, there are some like a friend of mine carries a sig 232. Is that the 380? Yeah Fucking hate that thing bites the hell out of my hand He's spot-on accurate with it and it's like that for everybody and just a lot of people don't realize that yeah If you're gonna teach somebody how to shoot don't expect to do a lot of shooting yourself that day You're gonna be working with them and let them try different things and different combinations till they find what fits And what they're comfortable with because if you're not comfortable with it You're not gonna practice with it, and if you have to use it defensively you're not gonna use it effectively I've got one comment about that too when I first got married. I was I was already an officer And I took my wife to the range and I started off with 22s because I didn't want to scare with recoil and all that kind of stuff She was very very accurate even for a beginner at that point But she said she didn't prefer the really big guns because there was a lot of bang a lot of recoil the control She didn't really real feel real comfortable firing those but she did try them a Couple of years later. We've been married about five years about 2 a.m. I was on duty still at the station I was just actually getting through and Someone's tried to break into our house when she was in it with our son and I actually was the one responding to it and I found her in the bedroom with my dirty Harry 44 Magnum I was like all right, yeah And I asked her afterwards. I said I didn't think she liked that and she said you know fuck him She was gonna All right, we're we're getting the five so can we do like a one minute per with these five people think we can bang this out If someone's shooting take her shooting plinking and if not hands and bottles just um no beer Alcohol and firearms don't mix people. I found the easiest way to turn an anti-gun person into a program person is to take Shooting You know let them go Interact with gun people because a lot of times people are anti-gun because they're scared of guns and they have this image in their head of The oh, I don't want to go to the range because to them that just sounds like you know guys wild west fire and they show up And they suddenly realize oh these are decent folk and they realize that oh, I'm not the only girl here Yes, that's yeah Interact with others all right, that's the one minute Yeah Yeah, we're fine in your girlfriend Just points out it's just not worth it. Okay, let's knock these out and freak Direct your internet tube to the yellow pages yellow pages Are you gonna get shit being a woman or a native cut glass? They treat you like gold you walk in and they're they're so pleased You know how we welcome noobs as long as they don't put they're not posers Yeah, it's like that in the gun world as well because remember the more you try the more you may buy So they want you to be comfortable in gun range is exactly the same way Um If you just show an interest and and you tell them I don't know anything about this But I feel like I'd like to learn to shoot They will suggest something for you to try or more than one thing for you to try our range Allows you to swap guns So you you pay you pay one fee to rent something and you buy your ammunition And then if you want to try something else of all the rentals that they have and they have zillions You just to bring that one back and swap it for something else. Yeah, a lot of ranges to have training available another resource to is NRA org Find out who the NRA instructors are in your area and to be an NRA instructor You have to offer the full coursebook and they actually have a basic handgun course They have a self-defense course and they have a self-defense course specifically for women They're new to shooting. We got two minutes. We'll get three people in two minutes It would blast blast blast Getting an attorney if you don't already have one public defender, they'll they'll get one there real quick for you That may not be the guy you're gonna end up dealing with down the road But initially you can submit a statement or whatever. He's the guy that will get you your magistrate hearing and potentially get you back out I'd call the local gun range. Yeah, and ask them if there's a gun-friendly lawyer In fact, some of the ranges I've been to some lawyers keep their cards out. They specialize in firearm related So yeah, find the local gun range call up and say hey, I'm in some shit. Who's the lawyer around here? I need to come Thank you. Yes, sir Training for house clearing well The NRA actually offers a defensive shotgun course and they offer the home defense course and that's one of the things they address is Okay, yeah, you want to go learn long-range sniper shooting, you know, they got the long-range rifle course for that This is the course. They're gonna talk about wielding a shotgun 3 a.m. In your bathrobe You know over something that may be the cat or it may be somebody coming into the window I recommend that course and it's not just because I do a lot of work with the NRA. It's a good course A lot of local ranges too. I've seen everything from kind of like Combat SWAT entry house clearing type training you can take some places which incidentally is a whole lot of fun Also all the way through You know all the way through the NRA basic course where they're like, yeah, you're not a SWAT guy You're not a commando the house clearing you're going to be doing is your house and hopefully it's gonna be a Situation where you end up having to present in the guy leaves. All right, we're getting the light. Can you give us real fast summary? What do you want? Oh That sounds like a very in-depth psychological question, but we can actually you know, there is Yeah, yeah Come see us in the Q&A room We don't always get to do firearm talks like this at DEF CON it hasn't been in a while So thank you so much for letting us come here. This was fun. Thank you Las Vegas