 Alright, so I'm just going to fill you in with a little bit of context before this one starts. This is a debate I had out the front of a slaughterhouse at a save movement. And this man, he wasn't just a normal citizen bystander. He was someone who came to antagonize the group. He came and he was laughing at us and he was filming each of the activists sticking a phone in their face and being quite rude and abrupt. Hello darling. He's coming to help me with the speech. Come here darling, come here. Oh, she, beautiful. What was I saying? Cute puppies always send me off track. So we had the BBC there for this. The BBC were filming a documentary that aired on primetime morning BBC. That's not primetime is it? But anyway, they were there filming a thing. I actually thought he was planted. I actually thought he was planted by the BBC because I asked her. I said, did you, was that set up or something? But no, I was just someone that was working within the slaughterhouse who came out to try to piss us off. But this is how it went. Alright. Yeah, I agree. Oh really? Yeah. Oh, you have a degree in farm management. You send the world film to the BBC. The world will. The world will. Because people care about animals. Not everyone's like you and don't care about anything else. Oh, you care about animals. But you condemn them to a slaughterhouse when you're with them. Okay, I just want to talk about this here was a little bit further. This is a Facebook card. So the reason my energy is quite high because of his, I built rapport with him, if you could say. I pulled her up a little bit because he come and he tried to antagonize us. So I knew this man. He already started the game off, didn't he? So I wasn't going to let it spool up into aggression, but I did bring the energy up of this debate because he was there to create a little, you know, niggling with us, wasn't he? And he's a big guy. And he found it pretty cool that he was there like picking on people. So that's why I brought it up to his level. I would say a hunter takes animals' lives against their will when it's unnecessary. I think all those teams is a will. All lives are taken against their will. Death is a natural part of life yet. Murder is not a natural part of life. Okay, because we don't need to eat meat by one. Murder is not a natural part of life, but his argument there was basically everyone's going to die anyway. So the animals are all going to die anyway, so it's okay to end their life for an unnecessary reason. Completely, one thing I want to focus on here as well, which, you know, this is basically something new that's come to my mind. It is an injustice to ended animals' life. Of course it is. It's an injustice to murder any sentient being to rob their life before their natural lifespan. But the injustice actually starts the moment we view animals as property. That's where the injustice starts. This is where it ends, too. So you can use animals as property without even killing them. So the fact is they all go to a slaughterhouse. That is a fact. But that is not the start of the injustice. The start of the injustice is that we are viewing animals as products as property. They belong to people. Even your companion animal, you have the power to end that animal's life at a kill shelter. So these animals do not have the right to their own liberty. So any welfareist argument you get into, oh, you know, there's a humane way to do it. You know, the farms we get it from, we treat them really well. You know, they're going to be killed in a slaughterhouse anyway. Might as well treat them without cruelty. Irrelevant. They are treated as property. And as soon as you do that, that's an injustice. We do debate about the slaughterhouse and the way we treat animals, but the problem is that we're treating them as property. Logically, to survive. We are living through from that. So it's murder and rape. That's a last old choice, too. It's a victim of all. Yeah, it is. Murder and rape is a crime. Killing animals. Killing animals. There was slavery back in the past, but it was immoral because there was safety of beings who had moral values. There was no talking about it from time. So it was different times. So therefore back then it wasn't immoral. So what he's doing here is he's trying to, he's getting morality and legality confused. He thinks because something is legal, therefore it makes it moral. But you know, there's a lot of things that were once legal that were completely immoral and unjust. It used to be illegal for women to vote. That's an injustice. Unfair. Does that make it moral? Of course it doesn't. It used to be legal to kill your own human slave. There was no murder charge for killing your own human slave. Is that still? This is what we actually get into. But he gets morality and legality confused. So don't let people take you down that track. There's a difference between morality and legality. In this time here, hey bro, in this time here, in this time animal slavery and abuse is legal. That doesn't mean that those sentient beings have no moral value. Animal slavery. Well they're not free, are they? They're not free. Do you think animals are here to serve you? Do you? No, I don't believe that. I think they are. You'll be the riding horse. She was saying what he just did then. Okay. See what he just did then? That is called a red herring. He tried to divert me. Do you think animals are here? He tried to do socratic method back on me. I'm being intellectually honest. So he answered my question with a question. Do you think animals are here to serve you? No. And he goes, what about riding horses? Do you believe in riding horses? Complete diversionary tactic. Always be mindful when people do this, when you're having a debate about the ethics of eating and using and wearing animals, about what's happening in that slaughterhouse. And he tries to go, oh, do you believe in riding horses? What about palm oil? All these, they're trying to divert you from the core point. And if you're a really good debater and you can recognize this, you don't let him take you down that track. He tried to take me down that track. No. No. They try to do it. News reporters try to do it. Interviewers try to do it. People debating try to do it. All they're trying to do is avoid the core point, which is it's wrong. How do you go back to the core point without him saying to you, or why are you not doing it? Repeat the question. If they divert you, keep it on track. You remember the core point. That's not up to him. He's going to try to divert you. You keep it on track. So you bring it back to the core point. You bring it back to the question. And basically when he said that, it just went, whatever. It's completely irrelevant. You can also tell him you're trying to change the subject. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Stay on point. Wait, wait, wait. I'm not sure it's shown. Your stomach is filled with the corpses of his innocent beings. That's how I brought it back to the point. Okay? Okay? So he said, what about riding horses? And I said, your stomach is filled with the corpses of innocent beings. This is the point. Okay? He didn't ride in on a horse. Otherwise we might be debating about that too. This is the point. Okay? They didn't want to die. And you were eating them. Your body sort of changed the experience with me. Just because you can doesn't mean you have to. Okay? Just because you can do something doesn't make it moral to do it. So remember that your body is tuned. We can literally eat meat and vegetables. Yeah, you can. You can eat humans and vegetables too. You can eat human babies and vegetables too. You can eat dogs and vegetables. Endangered species, rhinoceros and vegetables. We're talking about the morality of doing it. Not whether you can do it. You can beat a child. You can kick a dog. We can do things that are immoral. Just because you have a choice to do something doesn't make it moral to do so. So don't let him or her take you down that track. Diversionary. You say you care about animals, okay? I care about animals. Okay, so you care what happens to them now when they get stabbed in the throat? So they get stunned, okay? And then they get hung up and then they get stabbed in the auto to drain and look at blood, okay? Would you say they're feeling any pain at that point? So, for starters, one thing he made very obvious was that he didn't even know animals got stabbed in the throat. So you're going to debate with me about what happens in a slaughterhouse and you don't know that every single animal that ever gets killed are stabbed in the throat, even fish? They're all stabbed in the throat. It's either a slash or a stab, whatever you want to call it. It's a knife in the throat, isn't it? So he didn't even know that. Animals are stabbed in the throat. So then I understood that he didn't actually know what went on in there. So then I understood that he had sort of an innocent ignorance about him. Would you say that they are feeling pain at that point? This is a very important thing you need to not go down this track. Whether they feel pain or whether they don't does not change the injustice of it. You can treat someone like a product, like property, and you could have high welfare standards. It doesn't mean they have any liberty. It doesn't mean they have any rights, the one fundamental right, the right to freedom, to life. You can kill someone painlessly. You can drug your wife with a poison and kill them. It doesn't change the morality of it. So whether the animal is feeling pain, whether they're treated cruelly is irrelevant. Well, it does have some relevancy. Obviously, it's more of a horrific. But it's irrelevant to the injustice of it because you don't need to treat animals cruelly at all for it to be an injustice. Do you think that it should be stunned with an stab in your throat? Would it cause you harm? The reason I said harm is because there's a difference between harm and pain. You can cause someone harm without causing them pain. So you can slash someone's throat really fast and they don't feel it, but you've caused them harm. That's why I emphasised the word harm instead of pain. So do you think it's moral to cause harm to innocent beings for an unnecessary reason? Anybody who has a job in there has a responsibility if they're going to kill a animal. I think they have to do it efficiently and then at least answer the animals' feelings, if you like. Taking their life against their will. Do you think that's moral? OK, so you notice how I'm always asking him questions. This is a Socratic method in action, so we're debating, but I'm asking him questions. He didn't answer my first question. Do you think it's unnecessary? And he said, it was a yes or no answer that the question should have had a yes or no answer. Does he think it's necessary to take an innocent being's life? And he started going, I think the workers in there have a responsibility to kill the animals without causing harm. That's not what I asked him. I asked him if he thinks it's necessary, not what the workers are doing. And I keep following up his objections with a question. So try to navigate your next debate with just questions. See how productive it is. See how productive it is. Now, this is obviously a little bit more of an intense debate. You're going to have those ones. Those ones are just going to happen. It's a bit of a different vibe than James's was a bit chill. I have chill debates like that too, really chill ones. But just try navigating it with questions. It's really powerful. Well, you don't need to. You know you don't need meters. Well, you don't need any meters to survive, do you? Well, that's against the choice, isn't it? People choose to eat it. That doesn't make it moral, just because you can do something. Sorry, I had to stop that there. What he said was it doesn't make it moral to try to outlaw it, does it? So I'm there trying to basically outlaw animal use. And he's saying that I'm not giving him the choice. So I'm taking away his freedom of choice by trying to, you know, make a peaceful world basically. So I thought that was a very bizarre thing for him to say. What? Well, you can say the same thing about outlaw in any moral way. Oh, it's not moral to outlaw murder and rape and kicking dogs? That's basically what he's saying, isn't it? Do you think animal cruelty is immoral? Yes. Okay, so do you think it's cruel to take the life of an animal against their will? I'm asking you not. You don't think that's cruel, even though they don't want to die? No. Apply the same logic to yourself. Would it be cruel to take your life against your will? If you could do it. If you could do it. Okay, mate, come on. Give me five minutes to load. Okay, let's see how I handle this one. Do you think he would have been immoral? I think he would. I would defend you if someone tried to attack you. I would defend you if someone tried to take your life. I'd defend you because you're a sentient being. He don't deserve that. Hitting his heart strings. Terrorist in Syria. Terrorists are innocent. Pigs are innocent. I don't know. Wait for it. If someone attacks a terrorist in Syria, what are you talking about? Pigs are innocent. Okay? And he goes, wait for this. He goes, how do you know? Wait for this. Wait for this. You. Brother. He's just done nothing wrong to you. He's just done nothing wrong to your friends. A little bit. Right. He's a little bit method. Ten years. Right. Barney? He's talking about Barney. He's talking about Barney. He's talking about Barney. So much for Barney being a terrorist. So try to pull the Barney trick on me. If you jump that fence. Barney will rip you to shreds. Therefore, it's okay to murder billions of pigs because Barney will bite you. This is the type of thing. This is what we're dealing with here. You're causing more harm to pigs. We kill them. Yeah, you are. You're paying for their death. You're paying for their murder. He answered my question for me. So there we go. He didn't understand supply and demand when it comes to animal products. So he's... I'm actually teaching this person. This is the first... This is what I mean. Even though he was a bit... You know... It was kind of... It was a bit of an aggressive vibe. I'm teaching him. Because he just basically answered what I wanted to say. With the next, you know... It's called supply and demand. Without your money, these places don't exist, bro. Exactly. What? I'm like... Well, I can make you plant-based meat out of proteins from rice and beans and legumes. No. You're telling me you've got to eat vegetables from now on, lads? Eat vegetables, mum? It sounded a bit childish. I'm going to agree with that. Have you ever seen a vegan burger, bro? They're delicious. We've got everything vegan now. There's no reason to do this to animals. And you agree, you care about animals. There's no difference between these animals in here and the pets that you own. Sorry, I shouldn't have said pets that he owns. Because... Yeah, they're companion animals, but, you know, you make these mistakes. If you found a service that said you could be healthy and thrive as a vegan, would you agree that this is even more unnecessary? He keeps holding on to choice when it's a circular sort of thing. It's a personal choice when the victim is involved. There's a victim involved. Okay, so the victim doesn't matter in your choice? See, how is that? It's a question? Yeah. Okay. So I've got his point. There's a victim involved. So the victim doesn't matter in your choice. It's a question. So this is how the questions help you. You don't have a problem with an innocent being having a life taken for an unnecessary reason when you have alternatives. That's a pretty strong question, too. How is it necessary for you? Is it vital for your survival? Come on, tell me about you. Is it necessary for you to eat animals? Just because you have a right to do something doesn't make it moral. You had a right to own a human slave 200 years ago. Yeah? That was your right. Legal right. Does that make it moral? Just because you have a right to do that? Talking of the time is talking about the return of these. So he's avoiding the two answer it. First of all, he had a little bit of a hard time understanding what necessary means, meaning you need to do it. If I went to the supermarket and I seen some pig flesh there, I'm a choice to buy it. I have a right to do that. Necessity means you have to basically do it to survive or to be healthy without sort of, for your fundamental survival base, so unnecessary. This is something you need to really drive home with him. Do you need to do this to survive or be healthy? We have evidence to say you don't. Are we talking of the times or are we talking of eternity? He thinks morality changes over time. I'm just implying that you're watching. No, it doesn't. Morality. Okay, so murder has always been murder, yeah? Has that changed over time? It wasn't. Playing word games. The crime called murder wasn't around back then, but the act of taking someone's life against their will was, and that was what was fundamentally immoral. So this is why he's trying to play these word games with me. Okay, but was it still immoral? Just because it was legal? Which is because it's legal, doesn't make it immoral. Yeah, but it makes it offensive. Do you agree that animals suffer and feel pain, yeah? Of course they do. They do. So they have moral value. Where's that value attached? I don't see it. Where's the value attached? I don't see it. He had a hard time understanding what moral value means. Intrinsic value, meaning like a, say a tree. They have extrinsic value. So the tree brings oxygen to the life on earth. They don't have intrinsic value. So humans and animals, there's someone inside there. There's sentience inside there. We have intrinsic value. This table extrinsic value probably makes some money making tables. It serves a purpose out here, but there's nothing inside there. This is what I mean by moral value? Well, they have that sentience, just like you are. Where's the value in you? Where's the value in me? Where's the value in you? You don't. So then you don't have moral value. So we shouldn't treat you with respect. I feel like I'm getting a little bit too, see right here, I feel like I'm a little bit too much. You know, I'm in that zone and I was really getting in. So in retrospect, maybe I could have been a little bit less. We shouldn't treat you with respect. Joey, you're breaking him. He doesn't give you much of an option. Yeah, yeah. You're breaking him right now. Yeah, yeah, I've got him. I'm interrogating him because he started it off like this. You know, but I really, I feel maybe I'm a little bit, anyway, we'll see what he says. We'll see what he says. Do you agree we should treat other beings with respect? You can try and treat them with respect. I respect all beings, okay? Including you. Okay? I respect all beings. Okay? Once again, you've made a model choice. It's great for you. So you guys, you can try and treat me with disrespect. I'd like to see you try it, basically. So these were like, they were sort of empty kind of threats a little bit. Like, oh, I'd like to see you try. Try and treat me with disrespect. And I said to him, you know, I treat all beings with respect, including you. So I softened him up again, saying I'm going to treat him with respect. Even if my body language was a little bit like that, the respect's still shown through. And he said, once again, you've made a model choice. That's great for you. Yeah. And you do too. I believe you're a good person. I do. Because you care about animals. You mean about animals? I do. Whatever you say, I believe you're a good person because you care about animals. You just said it. Okay? Your actions don't reflect that. Boom. This is where I feel like I've really got him. Because he took down his guard then. Because we were both like this. And then I said, no matter what you say, I believe you're a good person because he was saying, no, no. You know, you don't know me. I'm not a good person. I said, yes, you are. Because you said you care about animals. That makes you a good person. Took down his guard. Say it. I thought, I'm kicking animals. I'm not going to eat another one. So I'm not buying the same models in your case. Yeah. So by eating animals, you're hurting them. Okay? No. They're already dead. They're not being hurt by the people. They're very dead because you don't want to buy them. Eat their bodies. They're dead because somebody sees a value in them in another way. Maybe not a model value. They don't want to sell the animal. They want to commodify an animal body. Exactly right. This is the whole problem. Human beings see value in other human beings or other animals in another way. It was selfish value. They treat them as property. Human slavery still exists. Animal slavery exists. And this is the problem. So we've basically unraveled the key issue here. We see value in animals as property. Commodities. Products like bottles of water. So commodifying sentient beings is okay in your eyes. So making money of the suffering and death of innocent beings is okay in your eyes. Are they suffering? Notice how he's answering my questions with questions. He's not answering the question. The thing is with this right, it doesn't really matter if he answers or if he doesn't. It helps because it helps me navigate the next question. What matters is what the audience are seeing. So you could be trying to persuade this person on the camera, this individual. Because it's being filmed, it doesn't really matter as much what he says, but what the audience that are watching it think. Now people with their head screwed on, rational logical people, which most people are. Most people are rational logical. Are seeing him avoiding the question. They're answering the questions in their own head and they're making them their own mind up about who's really being honest in this debate. And this is what I mean about it's not always, it doesn't always fall with the person that you're speaking to filmed. Thousands of other people have seen this. 400,000, 500,000 people have watched this. How many of them non-vegans? I don't know. I don't know, but that's half a million people. So majority of them people, logical rational people. Okay. Do you think they're not suffering in there? No. Do you think they're not suffering when they're getting their blood drained from their, I've seen animals being slaughtered, okay? Have you been in that? Have you seen them get stabbed in their throat? You don't even know where they're starting. You don't even know where they're going to release the blood. I know they have to do that, I know. All animals get stabbed in their throat. Every single animal. No animal doesn't get stabbed in their throat. So what the question was is are these animals screaming about time? What does that change the fact that they're getting stabbed in their throat? If I stab you in the throat, well, I don't want to be offensive to you, but... If I stab you in the throat, I was like, oh, so that's right. You have a board. He had a bit of a boundary here. If someone stabs you in their throat, it's going to cause you harm. See, you don't understand. Pain is not pain and suffering. If that animal has been stunned, I wouldn't say it was sentient at that point, would you? Did you hear his argument there? Everyone hear his argument? He said if that animal has been stunned, I wouldn't say they were sentient at that point, would you? So his argument was if you're stunned an animal, they're no longer sentient, so therefore they had no more moral value. Okay? It was sentient up to the point of being knocked down unconscious. Okay? Would your defence apply in any other context? Like, oh, she wasn't sentient after I stunned her, your honour. So the crime is just devoid. No. No, no, no, no. It's indefensible. Do you have a wife and children and stuff like that? If they've seen what happened, okay, so the reason I skimmed past that really quickly is because people get very touchy when you talk about this. So you have to be very careful when bringing wife and children and stuff into it. Now, you have to say to yourself, now, you have to say that in a very tactful way because people can take that the wrong way very quickly and it could turn into a very aggressive argument. Now, I didn't pause after that. I said, do you have a wife and children at home and stuff like that? If they've seen what happened in here, so I quickly didn't give them a chance to react, I'll move straight on to the next part of it. Be careful when you're doing this. I've seen a fight happen with the slaughterhouse staff and some activists. One of the activists used an analogy to do with taking children away and you've got to hurt my kids. Took the analogy the wrong way so it's very easy to do. So just be very tactful, mindful and strategic with the way that you bring these sort of topics in on it because you don't know whether he's a lot bigger than me. He could probably snap me in half. So just be careful. And also, I want to maintain a respectful dialogue. I want to be respectful to him. We're getting somewhere. Anyway, let's see what he says. We're here. We want to eat it because you don't want to see any logical, rational human beings care for animals. They don't want to see animals get stabbed to death. Children. Does that tell you something that we shouldn't be doing it? If your children can't see what happens in here without being sick and being scared that gives us an indication that we shouldn't be doing this to them. Think about it, brother. I know what you're saying. It's absolutely coming from him. We're nearly getting him. We're nearly getting him. He's falling back on. I dealt with that at the start. He has nothing. And people watching this are going to see he has nothing because he keeps bringing up the same argument we've already addressed. It is a choice, but it's an immoral choice. Of course we have a choice to do immoral things. It's an obvious thing, but so is raping a woman. Well, I've never read to pigs, sirs. All pigs get raped. He forgot that most pigs, not all pigs don't get raped, by the way. They get sows, they get raped, don't they? They get, you know, I avoid the word rape because of the trigger word, but they get forcibly impregnated, sexually abused. They wear these, it's kind of like a nappy thing. Have you seen it? What's it called? Do you know what it is? Okay, so they have this belt on that has semen in it and they all get sexually abused, so. All pigs get raped. They do. They are forcibly impregnated and the piglets gets taken away from them, okay? But it's been that, okay? Well, I have all been used by somebody else. I'm not judging you. Four years ago I was eating animals probably more than you were. Common ground, okay? I won't be judged by someone like you. I said, I'm not judging you. Four years ago I was eating animals just as much as you were. I like to say that I was eating animals more than you were and also I was involved with gangs and I was committing conscious acts of violence. So who am I to be judgmental towards you? I've come from this place to you don't even have to, in your words, say you're being superior but people can feel like you're being superior just by, you know, so you've got to be extra careful of that and I like to put myself a little bit below them because then they take the message on even better. Okay? I've just woken up and decided that it's unnecessary to cause harm to them. They've done nothing wrong to us. They're six months old. They're six months old when they get stabbed in the throat. Okay? They're like puppy dogs, okay? So, all one of us are innocent. Yep. Bang. We got him, hey? We got him. So, I got this man who was like, you know, it's really like, sort of like, hard to get in touch with his compassion side. I got him to express some compassion there. He went from saying, pigs are not innocent, didn't he? Remember he said, Barney will bite you, therefore it's okay to kill animals and now I've got him to admit all animals are innocent. Okay? So, we've fully got somewhere within then and you can feel he's really softer now the way he's speaking, isn't he? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, we're doing this to innocent beings. Okay? Innocent beings. They've done nothing wrong to you. So, how about you do your own research on that? Okay? You can find out yourself on the back if you want to do a little challenge. There's a vegan challenge on the back. Follow my link and you're going to go eat one. Thanks. That was it.