 to see you and welcome, Darlene. It's good to see you again. Been a while. And a while. Yeah. And so we've been working on the farm COVID-19 relief money, along with food services and 50 other things. And so this morning, we thought we would hear from the farmers, because we haven't heard from you folks since the governor came out with his proposal. And it's all going to be part of the mix. We sort of had our own that we were coming along with. And so anyways, we're going to be putting together a plan to submit to our appropriations committee. And we've got a week and a half or two weeks to do that in. So if you'd like to lead off this morning of how things are and what you think of the whole fiasco in general, that would be great. Well, thank you. Thank you, Bobby. My name is Darlene Reynolds. I own and operate Crosswinds Darien daughters in Albert Vermont. My husband and I and my two daughters run the farm. We move milk probably around 600 to 650 cows all the time. We're an MFO. I don't know if most of you remember. I was the chair of the Farmers' Watershed Alliance for some time and have stepped down at this point, but still very engaged with what goes on in our communities around me. I think I have a really healthy relationship with everybody in our community, which I always appreciate, because I have been one of them farmers have been lucky enough not to have any phone calls and stuff like that. So it's always good to have the quietness. But definitely, COVID-19 has changed my business dramatically. I got to say that I cannot believe the change that we have made since early March. And very unexpected, almost to the point where by the time the reality set in, it was almost too late for our farm to kind of jump on that reaction. We have been a farm that's always purchased insurances the last five years. And shockingly, we, for the first two quarters of the year, had none. Because we just felt that the year was going to be great and that we were going to be able to move forward and start paying back some debt and really hopefully put our farming in a standing where we could bear the next downturn. Because you know what always usually does happen. And it's exciting time for us. I have a daughter who just graduated from UVM with a bachelor's degree in animal science with a minor in entrepreneurship. Very super excited. And I had to mention it because there is no ceremonies, no graduation, and very proud of her. And I have another daughter who's 26 years old who's currently on the farm with me who has come leaps and bounds since she's graduated. And also to let you know, both of them were recipients of the 2 plus 2 program. I've got to put that out there and always appreciate that program. Thank you very much. And going in COVID, hearing the governor speak last week about potentially or it happening to help us dairy farmers get through COVID-19 was super, super exciting. I don't know how I'm going to pay my vendors. I don't know where this money is coming from. The drop has come so significant and so dramatic that I'm here now looking at the end of May trying to put a game plan together. And everything has happened, had to happen so quickly. Running to my companies for equipment asking for deferred payments. Trying to figure out how to cut myself back on grain because not only did we get hard with prices, we also got hit hard with the fact that our cooperative is now asking us to drop 15% of our production very quick like in a manner of only giving us one month's worth of production to look at. And every day, it seems to be new changes. Every day, it seems to be new challenges. And I think as a farm, we've had a lot of family meetings. We've had a lot of discussions on how we were going to work that out. Plans on making deferred payments, plans on taking and paying interest only on some of our loans, plans on where to cut staff if possible. That was a little catch-22 because we were one of the ones that took the PPP monies. And then you're looking on where to cuts. And that's not one of them because of the PPP monies. You need to ensure that your staff are continuing to be there. So that was a little interesting. But trying to work through that, trying to work through where vendors are going to get something if they can get something. I mean, at this point, I'm still looking for money to finish paying up the grain bill. Even though at the beginning of the month, our farm decided to cut back on grain. Our farm decided to develop a much more locale group. And our farm also decided to beef out several animals to try to help get the cut back, plus decrease the cost of what's going on right now. So with all that at hand, I'm looking into June in even lower milk prices. So we've set the price for May and looking at to be around $1250 to $1275. And now they're looking at June to be even maybe $75 to $1 less than that. So moving forward, we're just trying to figure out ways all the time to try to mitigate the situation. We're also looking at insurance programs for the fourth quarter and the third quarter of this year if available. Have took a look at it. Very, very, very expensive. But looking at all those avenues, I feel like our dairy, I've got to say, has been one who's also been progressive on trying to do some diversification. My husband and my family do a lot of custom operating for other small farmers, especially the organic area, because we live in Grandile County, organic herds. We also take and do a lot of assistance with other things that goes on the farm to help out with that cash flow situation. I just want to let you know that what's happening now isn't because dairy farmers in Vermont are doing a bad job or isn't because dairy farmers forget how to be good entrepreneurs. This is happening because it's happening everywhere so the country. And when you talked about this stimulus package and I have spoke to the Senate House Ag and I guess that's why I'm jumping into this, I want to let people know that every dollar that the state of Vermont gives to us, we're giving back to the vendors of the state of Vermont, that those dollars will quickly leave our farm if they even hit the doorsteps for two seconds and run right back out to where those monies need to be, to secure the infrastructure that's going on here, to secure the people who, the automotive salesmen we buy filters for for our tractors, to the dealerships we buy tractors from, to the grain companies where we get our grain, to the hardware store where we get lumber if we have projects we have to do. That monies is the monies that we're desperately missing right now. And this is a very expensive time of year for us. We're out there planting corn, chopping hay, trying to pay for diesel fuel, trying to keep people working because we are essential. The bottom line is that this work still needs to get done. And I also want to say too that most of my farm is land trusted. So this farm has always had the idea of being agriculture to being in this community and to making sure that Vermont stays the way that it is today. And I can't stress enough on how important these dollars are to every Vermont farmer that's here. Yeah, thank you, Darlene. Have you any estimate on the loss that you like suffered up to this point from low milk prices to extra costs for because of Colbert? Yes, our dairy farm right now for this last milk check and pushing forward we're a little over $100,000 loss. And that's medium-sized farm. That is a medium-sized farm. And also just remember there's also other struggles other than the actual not being able to pay bills. Sometimes just getting services for the farm because of Colbert 19 has been difficult. So even though our farms still have to run 365 days a year pretty much 24 hours a day, we need to make sure that that happens. And sometimes getting those services isn't as easy as it used to be because of Colbert as well. So that incurs extra time, extra expense. And ingenuity, we have to think outside of the box to get what we need to get done on a daily basis. Yeah. Other questions from the committee members? No, and has any of the federal money come through yet to help you folks, darling? Nothing federally has come through for us. I don't know of any farmers myself that have gotten even the $1,200 stimulus check. I do know that a lot of farmers applied for the PPP and gotten some monies. I do know a very, very few farmers who got a little bit of unemployment checks, but most of them have gotten none of them at this point in time that I know of. And as far as the USDA, the sign up for that particular program just started on May 26th. And yes, my application is already in because that's super important to me that funds come back to the farm as soon as possible. It's not an easy task though to get ahold of an FSA person to get that application in because they are so overwhelmed on the amount of applications that are heading into their office right now. I feel like I was one of the lucky ones that had an email and they answered it. So I just kept emailing back and forth until I got everything completed. And I know a lot of other people are still pushing to do that as well. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. Are there any questions from committee members for Darlene? If not, thanks again, Darlene. Ruth. Just one quick question, Darlene. Thank you for your testimony. I don't think I've met you before and congratulations on your daughter. Thank you. I just wondered how many, just give me an idea of how many employees you have on your farm for a size, from MFO size? We probably have between eight and 12, depending on the day. And does that include your daughters and your family? Yeah, yeah. I have two daughters that work on the farm. I work full-time. I actually milk one shift a day, six days a week on the dairy as well as do the bucks here. And my husband works on the farm. I helps out with feeding, but a lot of times he's gone doing the custom work with my daughter Olivia. So the main people that are on the farm actually working with the herd is my oldest daughter Serena and myself. Okay, and which cooperative do you belong to? I am a DFA member. DFA, and they're the ones that they've asked for a 15% reduction in your production? That is correct. We didn't get notification until around April 15th or 16th and that it would start the decrease in production on May 1st. I will let you know I have not been accomplished, able to accomplish the 15%. The good part is, is that not gonna take away money away from me like agramar is gonna try to start doing. I'm hearing that every 100 pounds that you overproduce in May and agramar, they're gonna charge you $14. In May though, with my overproduction, I can get paid anywhere from $2 a hundred weight for that milk to possibly as much as $7 a hundred weight, but no more. For the overproduction? For the overproduction. And you mentioned that you called some animals, were you able to get a decent price for the beef for those or? The last couple of weeks have not been bad. There was a like two or three week gap beforehand that the prices actually went down. I think for decent beef right now, you can get around 70 to 71 cents for a very good cow and as little as 50 cents. So it has come up a very, a little amount, probably about 11 to 12 cents per hundred per pound, which has been really helpful in meeting the demands of trying to make, for at least my farm, for trying to make payroll on the weekly basis because of the deductions of the advance checks that the cooperatives have come out with because they're so low without those beef checks, it would be even more extremely difficult. So your cooperative is doing deductions on your milk checks? Absolutely, they take and give you a final paycheck and then they do an advanced paycheck and that advanced paycheck has been hit dramatically hard on how little that you're gonna get paid versus the next month. It's pretty serious when you start having conversations with your milk company and they're basically asking you to take off all of your non-mandatory milk check assignments off your check. They're saying that milk prices are so low that payments that we normally pay for you that are non-mandatory, you need to take them off your milk check because there probably won't be enough money to cover that and that's exactly what happened. So they, my milk company stepped out and warned me because I'll be honest with you, just getting my head wrapped around this drop was not easy in the beginning. You think of like a two to $3 swing I think is the most that I've ever really seen on our particular milk check and this swing was, I think around five to 550. And then our milk company in particular added a covert 19 minus on our check. So we got paid a specific price, then minus 87 cents for covert 19 and minus 49 cents for the marketing assessment fee, which brought our check down to a significantly lower price before we started paying the bills. Okay, thanks for confirming that. That's what we had heard that they were doing a sort of covert 19 reduction in the milk check. So that's, it's good. I mean, it's not good to hear, but it's interesting to hear directly from you that that's actually what's happening in the field. So thank you and thanks for your testimony. Thank you. Have you darling, have you talked with the directors of your co-op? Because what we're finding is, you know, the supplies in the stores from yogurts to cheese to fluid milk are not there. I mean, you know, the shelves are empty is flying out the door. And why, you know, why is the price so low and there's no milk to sell to people. Maybe we'll get into that from some other participants this morning, but. I can answer that question for you, dear. I had the exact same question myself when that happened. And you've got to remember that there's a lot of processing plants around the country and each processing plant processes a different type of product of milk. And when the food service industry went offline, the processing plants that processed milk in the five gallon bags and the processing plants that made 40 pound bags of mozzarella cheese, they actually became over stocked in the amount of material that they had left that they already had made. So they had to shut down their productions. And even though we ramped up the yogurt places and bottling milk, they couldn't ramp it up fast enough to get what was flying off the shelves moving. Plus they had to move the milk that was supposedly heading to the plants to produce these larger quantity packages back to the plants that had to gear up for product. So there was a lot of transitioning and shift. So it was like a ying and a yang in the beginning. First we had milk just flying off the shelves and actually milk was actually just driven into every place. And then we had this over flush that everything had to be pulled back again. And that's what I was told. And I kind of can relate to that because every plant I'm sure processes packaging differently than a different than a plant before that. Yeah, there's a lot to it, that's for sure. Well, thank you, Darlene, and we'll move on because we've only got about an hour and a half. So thanks a lot for your time and we'll move over to Will Gladstone. Morning, Will. Morning. Are you Walt Gladstone's son? Yeah, that's correct. Well, when Linda told me that Will Gladstone was going beyond I said that name doesn't sound quite right. But it's great to have you on and say hello to your dad and mom. Yeah, we'll do. No, well, I appreciate being able to be a part of this this morning. Oh, man, I mean, I'm going to sound kind of like a broken record to what Darlene just said. She did a really good job. So I'll give a little background about myself. I'm 31, partners with my parents and my younger brother on our farm in Bradford, Vermont. Currently, we're milking about 15 to 1600 cows. Someone asked about employees. We have about 26 full-time employees on the farm at the moment. And we also grow about 200 acres of pumpkins as a diversification piece to our business. As far as COVID-19 goes, you know, at the beginning of this year, end of the following year, it looked like we were going to have a great year. We have Darlene and those folks sound like they've done a better job than us as far as participating in insurance programs. We used to do a little bit of futures contracting. We mostly contract our grains, but we have not done any milk in recent years. So we're totally unprotected. And I think someone told me the other day only 4% of the state at the moment is protected under some type of insurance program. So most of us are pretty well wide open and vulnerable to what's going on. So we ship our milk to AgroMark. And the day before the first day of May, we knew it was coming, but we didn't really know what percent and what the penalty was going to be. But they sent out a letter at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, an email saying we have to reduce production by 6% of March's milk for the month of May and going forward until this pandemic, until they can get milk sales up again. And the penalty, so what they're actually going to do is they're going to pay us full price for all of our milk. But the last 6% overage is going to be docked $14 a hundred weight. So for May, actually, they're going to charge members based on what most producers will be under that $14 range. So they'll actually charge us to pick up the milk. So I know many, many producers that are going to couldn't reduce completely the 6%, just like Darlene had mentioned. And field staff is actually quite concerned. I talked with Vice President of Membership yesterday. They're actually pretty concerned because there's so many producers that are going to open up the valve per se on Sunday. And I think there's going to be a lot of half empty milk trucks running around the countryside because people are going to dump their milk because they don't want to have it charged to pick it up. So that's kind of what we're facing on the COVID side. Like Darlene had said, prices look to be extremely depressed for maize milk. So that would be June's milk check. And really going forward, it's very uncertain. The markets have been so, so volatile the last month or two. Really, we've had major swings from limit down, which is $0.75 a hundred weight in a day to limit up certain days. So it's really hard to know what our milk prices are going to look like going forward and what is going to happen, whether we have a second wave of this or not. But in the short run, dairy farmers desperately need those monies to pay vendors to continue to pay on their operating line potentially. So it's definitely going to hit many farmers very, very hard. Yup. So the $14 charge, is that on the 6% or how is that determined? Well, that's correct. So basically, for us, and I'll give you some real numbers, we were making about 153 to 152,000 pounds a day. We are only allowed to ship right now at the moment 141,500 pounds. So anything over that amount is going to be subject to the $14 penalty. And it looks like, from what Agramart in talking with our directors, that's going to be for maize milk, definitely for June's milk. And they're just very unsure of how quickly they're going to be able to loosen the reins, per se, on that penalty. So it's roughly, what, 11,000 pounds reduction per day? Yes. You've got to reduce. So for 30 days, that's 33,000 pounds of milk a month. That's correct. That's quite a few trailer loads. Yeah, so we're figuring it's going to end up being about three and a half to four trailer loads of milk, correct? And what can you dispose of that on your fields and your pet? What do you do with that much milk? I think a lot of people are going to put it in their pets. That's correct. I think that, obviously, the state probably will get involved in certain operations, and I'm sure producers will be talking with different people to make sure that that happens in an appropriate manner. But yeah, I think that there's going to be some of that. And I think some producers will probably end up shipping the milk and taking the penalty. There's probably been a lot of producers, too, that have cut back their milk by either feeding less grain, calling cows, drying off cows early. And all of these decisions are, as you well know, unprofitable decisions on top of a low pay price. So it's kind of a double whammy. Yeah, yeah. Are there any other markets out there for the milk, like down south, or is it the same, regardless where you go in the country? I can tell you just from talking with a few of my friends that are in Wisconsin, it's worse in certain areas than others. We are lucky we are in an area that has quite high class one utilization, which would be fluid milk in Wisconsin, where there's a lot of generic cheeses that are made to grind into bulk, or bulk cheeses. There were numerous co-ops out there that were asking producers to reduce 15% to 20%. Yeah, and certainly no spot market milk, right? Well, not really. So I mean, the spot market deals kind of a tricky thing, too, because AgroMark, as well as DFA markets, melt to many of those vendors. So contractually, we actually cannot sell our milk directly to other processors that it's not what we're supposed to do. But there's a lot of processors right now that are buying milk for very, very small amounts of money, $6, $7, $100 weight, distressed milk. Yeah, yeah. Are there any questions from the rest of the committee? Hi, Rose. Chris can go ahead. I took last time. Go ahead, Chris. Well, thanks, Will. Do you think that we're likely to see some farms closing in Vermont that this will be the breaking point for more of our farms? Oh, there's no question about it. I mean, when we're talking $12, $13, $14 class 3 prices, our break, even on our farm, to cash wall and have debt repayment, we're somewhere around that $18, $100 weight range. And we're probably, we're a large farm permit. So I mean, we're probably maybe marginally a little more efficient than some other producers. And that's what it takes for us to make 100 pounds of milk. So I think for sure there's going to be a lot of people who are going to exit. There's one thing that's interesting that these co-ops have made happen is basis transferable. So there's been quite a few farms that have sold out and their base milk production is transferable if that producer buys their cows, if that makes sense to you. So if, let's say, you're milking 100 cows and you want to sell out. And right now, the price of dairy cattle is terrible, right? Because milk prices are poor. You might be able to get a premium for your cows because I want your base. I want to be able to make that milk without a penalty. So which I think was positive that the co-ops are letting that happen because it's giving producers who want to exit a chance to get more value for their cattle. But we're definitely going to see more farms exit the business this year for sure. It strikes me that it's tragic news on the back of several years of hard news. And Cal, there's no question about that. And so from our seats, in the Senate Agricultural Committee, we're trying to figure out how to help farmers that are struggling to pay the bills. But we also are trying to figure out, well, what do we do for the folks that are closing or to sort of help with transition? And the moment we talk about that, people are frustrated because they maybe hear us giving up on farmers that are giving it their all, to say the least, and have been for years. And we deal with that, that's fine. But I would love to hear any ideas that you would offer us as we try to navigate that a little bit, recognizing that this is going to mean farms are closing. And are there roles for us for the state to play to help transition? We want to keep that land working. We want to keep it open land and in agriculture. And so any strategies for us, just even on how we should be talking about it, so that people get the sense of where we are coming from, which is a supportive place, but also recognizing we do seem likely to lose some farms. And we want to help that happen in an orderly way that protects paychecks and people's investments. Well, I think that there's no question right now. People are more concerned about where their food comes than ever, ever. And I mean, I don't have the silver bullet. We grew 32 acres of hemp last year and still haven't been paid for 99% of it. So I think that diversity can work in some ways. You kind of got to be clever about how you, as the state, you guys, how much you want to push certain new ideas. I think that there are, depending on the land-based size and what's going on. And there can only be so much farm to table, I think, but we started selling about a month and a half ago beef off of our farm. And I can't believe. We've sold probably 20 dairy caulkows and a bunch of that we've sent to a processor and been selling it retail. I'm floored at how many people. And I'm sure that this is just a snapshot in time that, but I think that there's definitely opportunities out there. I think though probably still our bread and butter is going to be these dairy farms continuing to work the land. And I guess my advice would be to you guys is I think that the folks that are left milking cows, I think that we're moving into a new era, like Darlene had kind of said, where these tools and insurance programs are going to play a much larger role in establishing a bottom. I don't have a silver bullet for you. I think that don't have all your eggs in one basket, probably is, yeah. So I know you mentioned earlier, Will, that you do a couple of hundred acres of pumpkins. And that's quite a few jack-o-lanterns and things. Are you going to do more this year? Or I mean, how's that market going up to this point? So far. So we sell pumpkins to probably 80% of our pumpkins only go to two people. Market basket and is a huge customer of ours. And then we sell to a distributor who goes into Lowe's Home Depot and Walmart. And I think that, you know, those guys seem to think that they're going to be able to get the job done. And I sure hope so. I think that I hope that people are still going to go out and want to buy a pumpkin or two for their, for their children to carve. And so we're growing about the same number of acres as we always have. I don't think we totally had the courage to do more. But no, it's been a great business for us, especially in years when dairy really has fallen short. Yeah. Well, that's great that you've got at least that market that's somewhat positive anyhow. Well, any other questions for Will? If, if not, thanks a lot for your time, Will. I know you're welcome to do like most farmers. So is it. The next one to speak, is it Donna? Yeah. Are you. Are you all set? Can you hear me? Yeah, you sound. Loud and clear. Oh yeah. It's Dean of Benjamin. I don't really have anything more to say than darling and will said because they did such an awesome job. I'm just here to, to, to back up everything that they said and the urgency of getting the funds right to the dairy farmers. That would be great. A couple of strategies that we use that our farm is we went from milking three times down to two times. And that the way it figures is probably a 9% production loss. We also deferred all our long-term loans. To August. So. That's a little bit of a relief, but as it stands right now. For us that in, in January, we were current with all our vendors. No longer current where we're running one to two months behind. They've been fantastic, but you know, like Darlene said that that only goes so far. So that's what we're doing. We employ about 10 full-time employees. We're able to meet right now our paycheck and our payroll expenses. But that is absolutely it. You know, it stops at payroll and I'm thankful to be able to meet those. Yeah. And how many, how many animals do you have? Oh, yep. Sorry about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Around just shy of 500. We have a total head of about nine 50. And. Are you a medium. Are you a medium or LL. Medium. We're an M. Yep. Yep. And you're out of. We're in Franklin. We have about a thousand acres here in East Franklin. Yeah. Are there questions for Dina? So you, by reducing your Brian. Thank you. So I'm just trying to keep track of numbers. Darlene mentioned that they're an MFO and it was about $100,000 loss. So I'm guessing Dina's probably in that range. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd want to go back to Will and ask him as an LFO, what he would put down for a number. It'll just help us kind of. Get a. Overall kind of. Number. Yeah. We, we run those numbers too. So we're right around a hundred. Okay. And what about well. I'm kind of spitballing because I think that it's going to change quickly because. I think it's going to change a little bit. I think it's going to change a little bit in the beginning of next month. And probably a lot of us are going to be. Pretty discouraged. I'm going to say it's probably in that 160 range. 150. 160. Okay. Thank you. Other. Other questions. If. If not. We'll move on. Amanda. I'm going to go back to Bill. I'm going to start Bill. I'm, I can go, I'm going to, I'm going to keep it real short. You guys have seen me a couple of times already. I appreciate the ability to come back after the announcement. And I just wanted to touch on a few things. And I know, I know there's a lot to figure out in this industry and your committee is kind of the ones that need to do it. So I appreciate the mid to long-term. And I know that it's just a little bit of a, it's just a little bit of a, little bit of a big, little bit of a big time. And we would love to be part of those discussions. And we do have some ideas. One of the ideas I just briefly throw out before we get to the subject at hand, which is the. The cares money here before us. But I really feel with. These other generations coming on board. It's actually going to be an attorney, but two, four daughters, two are on the farm and one is still too young to decide and certainly will is the next generation and Dina has a son and potentially a daughter. So I guess for me, something that this committee could really look at is offering some business consulting, you know, at a higher level to educate and to help these farms that are fully committed and invested, not only with our dollars, but the money the state has put in, you know, we're running a lot of farms that have conserved lands. And if we are not here and we do not figure out what type of bag or the breakdown of different ag, that is an investment that our remoders have done for nothing. And also if you consider the water quality investments, we all have made and the state has made. If our dairy farms or types of agriculture are not here, that is an investment that will not pay up. I can tell you that right now, there is an increased demand for housing. If you haven't heard that already, houses are flying off the market. We have some moths, I'll be honest with you that we were not going to develop that we are now looking at putting out for sale as a way of helping us through this time. I know up in your county, Senator Starr, there was some people from Connecticut driving by, they stopped at one of the farms and said, hey, do you know of any places for sale? We want to get out of Hartford, we're looking. And that is the real, that is the real story that's happening now. And I am all for new people coming into Vermont, helps our tax base, gives some resurgence and maybe some workforce, but at the same time, I don't think that we want to offer our work landscape as that, I think we wanna look and plan where the housing goes. I just wanted to touch really quickly on those few things, but in general, I guess my request to your committee is to keep the bill simple and not get into many different bills, many different versions, to expedite the funding to the farms as they need it now, our vendors need it now, and we are not gonna hold onto it. It's gonna go right back out in the economy. I think that our proposal of the 42 million prior to the governor coming and announcing his package is still pretty accurate. We're still looking at about a $7.50 loss per hundredweight, no matter what size dairy farm you are. And we had come up with 14 million a month. I think that's fairly accurate. I think we probably should look at the numbers again and forecast is where are we gonna be at with the loss of farms and the production in the state of Vermont over the next month or so and come up with another funding request potentially in the fall. And I think there is time for discussion on diversity and restructuring that needs to happen. And that's why we put in some considerations for mid and long-term goals, which we haven't had a chance to discuss with you yet. But really what we're trying to do is build that bridge and the hard work that we put in the last four years, let us get to the other side so that then those things can happen. I know that, and I think, I don't know if we'll set it this morning in your committee, but in the house committee, they had capital projects planned. And I think most farmers did. We had water quality projects we had saved money for. We had capital improvements and diversities that we were planning. That money now is gonna go into offsetting the COVID losses. And that money is borrowed. So they're not going to loan us more money to do these projects. And that is really kind of sad for the state of Vermont because when you look at better year of milk prices and you've done the work of cutting your cost of production, you're building more cash reserves. And so we're gonna put it to good use and we're gonna become more efficient and do these things. But now those projects will not happen. So again, whatever questions you have for us, we'd be happy to answer if you need some more numbers. Senator Starr will get those to your committee if that's helpful. But I just really would request that this get done as soon as possible and get out the door because farms are closing and they're not necessarily the farms that you want to consider closing. They are the farms of the future, but they just can't seem to figure out how to get through with this cash flow shortage and they're not going to have the vendors hold any more money than they already did. Yeah, well, a lot of vendors, a lot of vendors have not extended anymore credit as we understand it. Right, I think we heard, I think it was 200 million in unsecured funding, the grain companies, you know, and that's scary and they have employees and their money recirculates in a state of Vermont as well, fuel purchases, et cetera, et cetera. And so you're right. I mean, this is a tsunami that nobody could plan and hit and now we're all left trying to deal with the aftermath. Well, and you take as things go, you have no choice where you're gonna sell your milk. Basically, you've got two buyers as far as I know and you don't wanna get the grain dealers down to two where you know what'll happen to the price of grain. And, you know, it's a dine vicious circle and you get caught up in it and it comes to bite you. Ruth, I think you had your hand up. Yeah, yeah, thanks, Bobby. And Amanda, thanks for your testimony again. I was struck by the first thing you started with, which was the need for business consulting services or training for especially new farmers. And I appreciate that you said that. I think that our conversation a few weeks ago that maybe sparked a little controversy around the state. We were trying to figure out, you know, what is it that farmers need? And in terms of consulting services or, you know, continuing education or professional development or whatever you wanna call it. And, you know, we were talking about some kind of survey that would be, that would come with the, you know, check to say what is it that you do need? Can you fill out the survey and let us know? And if you need business consulting services, then we will know moving forward that that's something we need to invest in or provide funding for or, you know, beef up the ability to offer that to farmers. I've heard from farmers down in my area in Addison County that the same kind of thing that business consulting services would be helpful, especially for new farmers. So I'm wondering what your thoughts are on if we were to, you know, include some kind of, you know, five question survey about what are your needs moving forward so we can make sure that we come out of this crisis as resilient and strong as possible. And we need to hear from you, not just you guys that are able to come on to our Zoom meeting, but farmers all around the state. So what are your thoughts on something like that? I mean, I think it's fine to collect data for sure. I wouldn't want it to hold up anything. I wouldn't want it to hold up any kind of funding. And I'd be really crystal clear on what I'm thinking for business consulting. I think it's education around booking floors and purchasing this, what we're calling as insurance. I think it's really education around how do you book grains? You know, I think it's really specific to building budgets and dairy profit analysis. I think it's really forward thinking. And I think it's really having somebody available where you can say, this is my thinking around this potential investment. Help me crunch the numbers. You know, this is the forecast for next year. What kind of budget? I mean, it has to be that specific. And I get a little concerned sometimes when we present these ideas because I think it's not just new farmers. I think we're all young enough to learn a new trick. Right? I agree. God help my husband. He's struggling with a smartphone, but he's gonna get it, he's gonna get it. But dairy today is so different. And I think it needs to be really like, I'm gonna throw out a couple of universities and apologize, I don't wanna offend anybody, but Cornell has some great programs and they have great people available. And New York has the Dairy Center of Excellence. We don't have to recreate. We don't have to make it only a Vermont. I think that we can partner and it will be a lot less expensive and they're already doing it. And I'll be honest, our family has undergone so many changes in the last four years because of that. And we utilize those things. And I just think, that is something that could be helpful, but I don't want it to hold up any funding. Gather information is great, but let's do it in a way that it's not tied to delay. That would be my only thing. Right. We got accused of that, but we never intended that. Yeah. And we're trying as fast as we can. We're ahead of other committees in terms of getting our package out the door. The legislative process is obviously not a fast one. We have so many struggling businesses and organizations and individuals around the state that we're trying to help all at the same time. And I know that 1.25 billion sounds like a lot of money, but when you divvy it up with all the people and businesses that are struggling, it's really just not enough. So we are making tough decisions and trying to do it as quickly as possible, but thank you for your testimony. Thank you. And it's very hard to have it equitable too. We're trying to figure it out so that the little guys get used fairly and everybody in between up to the large guys get used fairly. And damned if you do and damned if you don't, you're going to get criticized either way. But you know, I'm used to that because I'd been around for quite a while, but some people, their skin isn't quite as thick, you might say. But anyways, any other questions for Amanda? If not, thanks a lot again, Amanda, for giving us your time and thoughts. We certainly appreciate it. And Bill, I guess you're up next. Okay. Morning. Well, good morning. I've been in the field all week and we were covering a bunk at six o'clock this morning. I'm just sitting here kind of relaxing. Feels good to sit down for a minute. Nice to see everybody. Look, we know you're working hard. We know you're trying to do the right thing. We understand that you've got a lot on your plates and there's a lot going on and it's hard to do everything by distance. In some respects it's better, but in some respects it's a little more difficult. And I'm not going to press you. I'm going to simply say thank you for your efforts. We appreciate your interest in dairy farms in Vermont and we applaud you for the help you're offering. So that's about all I have to say. I mean, I think everyone's spoken enough about it so that I don't need to sit here and reiterate what others have said. So I'll just simply thank you and we'll be looking for your next call. You'll need some help further down the road probably. So I should tell you I've talked with a couple of people. You may want to be talking to some banker type folks and one of the people I spoke with was the FSA director who would be able to do something if you needed testimony on a financial issue. Another one was David Lane and also Brenda Frank with Yankee Farm Credit. And I think they may have reached out to you, Senator Starr. If they haven't, they will be. So I told you I'd do that and I'm not going to let you know that that's been, I've looked into that and they have your numbers. Yeah, thank you, Bill. Hey, before we move too far ahead, you want to give me Brian's phone number so I can give him a call and try to get him to keep you out in the field more often because you usually aren't this quiet and reserved. You know, he has a restricted number as far as you're concerned, Bob. You like that, you like that quiet side of me, do you? Well, no, it's just different. You know, I was in the trucking business with you for quite a long time there and we had to fight a little for what we got. You know, it was the kinds of battles, yeah. Unless it kind of carried over into agriculture, didn't it? Yeah, you jumped from the fire, from the pan right into the fire. You know, that old guy in Maine said about those lobsters that they were putting them in that boiling water and the old guy said to the kid, well, they get used to it. Yeah, I guess. Are there questions for Bill, from any of the committee members? Um, well, I don't see any hands up, Bill, and I certainly want to thank you, all of you, and for your time. I know we've used up quite a bit of some of your time in the past and it's always been appreciated and it really helps us understand the difficulty. The difficulty firsthand of where you folks are what you're facing, what you're going through and we, you know, we're hopefully not this week coming but the following week we're supposed to have this stuff done and get it out the door. And we had a good meeting earlier this week with Anson and the agency and they're getting geared up to get the money out themselves and so damn it, hopefully in a week or so, two weeks you'll get some relief coming. Nothing from FSA though, right? Yeah, but you guys all got signed up and farmers are signing up and... And Amanda, I did want to comment on those flatlanders blowing in up here in Orleans County, it's unreal. Driving along, they're just stopping by a plot of land to get away from the city and I don't know, they think we're giving it away cheaply so I guess everybody's got jacked at price a little. Did you folks have any other questions for us? If not, again, thanks a lot to all of you for your time and energy. Well, thank you all. Have a good weekend folks. Thanks everyone. Thank you. Good luck. So committee, we still have about 15 more minutes that we can work on the bill or did we have anything else on the schedule, Linda? No. No, so this morning at the chairs meeting earlier this morning, the plan sort of is that we'll do the ag stuff on this recovery money and that we will put together our plan and then move it to the Appropriations Committee and where hopefully our plan will be pretty well intact so it can just be sled into the big bill and the thinking behind that is we have to have a central place to keep track of the money so it doesn't get over overspent and of course everybody's concerned about what may happen down the road if there's gonna be more problems later in the year and so they don't wanna get rid of all the money until we find out whether there's gonna be more money. So I think we're back somewhere to our numbers more than Anson's numbers and hopefully though we ought to set this up I think so that there could be a second payment in case more money comes in it would be all squared away and ready to go so we wouldn't have to fool with it. It's amazing how much of that 1150 million dollars is gone but I think Tim or someone else somebody's gonna get sheets out to you folks when they get it organized but Chris you had your hand up. I just wanted to thanks for that and I actually was glad for this morning's conversation even though we'd heard some of our farmers I see Amanda may still be here but it's helpful to have them be with us as this evolves a little bit. So I appreciate that. I wanted to let everyone know I did talk to Senator Lyons about the Meals on Wheels and Food Shelf piece of what we were talking about yesterday. They're very eager for us to work with them on that. They haven't had a lot of testimony but they will and so I left it pretty loose because I wasn't really sure what we were gonna do and what they were gonna do so Bobby it may make sense for you to check in with Ginny but the bottom line is yes they're happy to partner with us and happy for us to be thinking about that. I think it's gonna make sense for us to get really clear on what would be my hope is that does not come out of the ag bucket of money that is separate. It's a distinct need. It's an undeniable need but it is very different from direct assistance to farm businesses. So that needs clarifying or and it's above our pay grade here but not above your pay grade Mr. Chair. So I just wanted to flag that conversation a good beginning conversation with Senator Lyons. Yeah and Rose. Yeah I just want to add I brought it up in the Education Committee yesterday too and they're supportive of our efforts to take the lead on this and then just loop them in next week when we have language and a plan on the school food issue as well. So they thought it was great that we started working on it. Yeah and you know I pulled around with education a long time you know locally and then in Montpelier and the Senate and it's challenging to my mind why you know it's costing so much this Colbert 19 is costing so much for K through 12 classes. When they haven't been to school since March 10th or something do you guys talk about that in education Ruth or is that? Well one of the reasons is because as you probably know about 80% of the cost of education is teachers paying for teachers and staff and even though the kids have not been in school the kids have still been doing remote learning. So the teachers and the teaching staff have all been engaged in education. I can tell you for sure and so can Chris that this is happening in our households and so teachers are working and they're getting paid for it and just like the farmers that we just heard from school districts have contracts that they have to maintain and vendors they have to pay. So the bus and contracts have continued and they've been using those buses to deliver food in most cases and they still have their building costs and things like that. So while there have been some savings there have also been increased costs for things like technology, a lot of schools bought computers to for kids use and stuff. So I'm happy to talk to you more about it but there are still expenses related to running the schools even though they're not in the schools physically. Yeah, it's amazing. In that sheet that we received this morning there's a lot of money tucked in there for K through 12. I mean, it's long ways from what I would call pocket change. It's major dollars and the healthcare industry they're in there for a lot of money. I think yesterday I talked a little bit maybe out of line about the big guys getting all the meat and the low guys are getting the bones and I don't know maybe that's the way it has to be but I really question that to some degree. Yeah, Chris? Well, maybe this isn't the place but I can't help myself. To that point, the idea that we're gonna give businesses whatever the grant is $25,000 or something and then bail out the hospitals in some kind of commensurate assistance without acknowledging that business owners are glad to scrape together 100 grand of income and hospital CEOs are paid millions of dollars. Like this really bothers me and I am wondering as this evolves if we could in a broader sense not in agriculture but maybe across the board acknowledge that and the pandemic has laid bare all of the inequalities and weaknesses of our economy in the most blatant way and that's exemplified by the food lines and all and on and on and on. And if we don't, if we are not mindful and actually perpetuate inequality in our relief spending, then shame on us and it's gonna be hard. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying we won't do it a little bit but we ought to have that conversation and spread some of the meat to everybody if you carry out the chair's analogy. Well, that's always been my belief even. I know that's totally off the subject but I had 35 employees and dammit, I made sure they lived as good as I lived and I had 35 happy employees that some of them they stayed until they were grandfathers and their sons came and their grandchildren came to work for me and if you use everybody fair, you know, it all works out great. And so anyways, yeah, that's gonna be a battle, Chris, that I just soon be part of but I'm gonna have another chat with the powers to be in regards to our numbers and because then we've gotta figure out, how much do we put in the other firms? We've got our other firms that are bleeding well and so we, I think next week's gonna be a busy week for us and is there anybody that, you know, I was thinking during our earlier meeting, if we could use some matching funds, you know, I don't know where to help, we'll get them from but if we could get some grant money that to go to firms where we could match it with covert 19 money, you know, so we'd get two bucks worth of use for a dollar or something like that. I don't know if it would pay to get Gus back in to see if there's anything through the Ready program that I hear Ella know about, but you know, I think we've gotta chase the money, that's for sure. Well, the other thing is, you know, I really appreciated that Amanda brought this up, like the other thing is not hinging or delaying the money to help with some technical expertise but potentially pairing it so that the money goes a little further, you know, and as she rightly said, the money is gonna go out the door the minute they get it, I believe that, but sort of some, we're all aiming for sustainability and in a very volatile industry, particularly in dairy. And I've been amazed that the farmer in Richmond, they called me and was quite upset about our conversation a few weeks ago, had diversified, you know, and so it was sort of like, well, this is, you're proving the point and some of the farmers we heard from today, they were glad to be, Will was glad that they had diversified and I think we do have an obligation to help them pay their bills and help them do a little planning and especially when they're asking for that help, I mean, so that's not a match as you're saying, Mr. Chair, but it is a pairing of some of the money with also some technical assistance and not in a way that has, you know, gotta be, if you want this, you get that, but... Yeah, I mean, it doesn't have to be a mandate but it would be good to get that feedback Rose? Yeah, I was just gonna say that what Amanda was saying about the programs at Cornell University for dairy, I've heard from farmers in my area too, they have some really, really strong programs already up and running that we don't have to pay for, we just need to provide access to them because they're expensive to get access to but they're already there, we don't need to reinvent the wheel and I think part of, you know, I had asked a couple of weeks ago if we could have Laura Ginsburg in to talk to her about that dairy innovation grant because that's six million bucks, it's supposed to go regionally and I think creating these regional partnerships with, you know, services and things that are already happening in our region with dairy would be helpful to Vermont dairy farmers to the extent that these things already exist that they just need access to. So wondering what Laura's plans are and actually now I remember that you guys asked me to reach out to her so I will do that again but just wanting to not spend too much time reinventing the wheel when we have stuff right there. Brian? Yeah, I'll just note, I think we all got copied on this, I assume we did, yeah. Anson Tevis had sent along an email this morning around nine about the financial relief package that's available for folks outside dairy and you may want to take a look at that there's some grants and things available that he found going back here. Yeah, we'll just note that. You may want to see it in our community. It's only $25,000. Well, I understand, but I'm going to side with the chair. No, I'm going to just mention that I think the chair's right, if we focused our efforts the next week or so on collecting all the money we could possibly find, it's kind of like the old story about the couch where the quarter slipped down on the dimes and if you pick all that money up, it's actual money. So it may not help too many people but it might help a few people and take the pressure off the other funding that we're going to be required to, hey, let's be honest, we're going to have to make some really tough choices. If the 50 isn't 50, it's less than that. It's going to take some tough choices. I've never, never been embarrassed reaching down and picking up a penny. Never bothered me in the least. But anyhow, we ought to get ready for our session at 11.30. And if any of you've got ideas about anybody being on or what we should work on on the schedule for Tuesday or Wednesday, next week, be sure and let me or Linda know. And Michael, good to see you. Did you have, you've got a couple of projects you're working on for us. Sure, I just wanted to give you a status report. I finished drafting the dairy assistance. I just finished drafting the agricultural producer and processor assistance program. The farm worker retention program stays the same but Treasury's issued some new guidance which may affect the eligibility for that program for CRF. I have contacted John Sayles at the food bank. He's going to get back to me with numbers and a proposal today. I talked to Stephanie and Jen Carby about funding meals on wheels and that's about an appropriation and potentially using some of the CRF money or some of what was general fund money. And I think that that's probably eligible under the new Treasury guidance. I contacted Rosie at AOE. I haven't heard back from her. I'm not really surprised by that because she probably has channels that she has to work within if she's going to make any kind of official proposal. So I'm going to draft something that's basically a general grant to the agency to do the summer food service program and then a separate general grant for the food service employee benefits. I do think we need to talk at some point about whether or not that benefit like the farm worker retention benefit is going to qualify underneath the new CRF Treasury guidance. I have to digest that a little bit more and that's kind of where I am. So I will have a draft for you either by the end of today or early Monday for you to look at. It won't be proofed and edited, et cetera, but you'll at least be able to work. I don't think that's necessary yet until we get it sort of firm dot and then ship it off to get straightened out. Okay. The other thing you were kind of just talking about the business consulting, you had got a proposal from BHCB at one point. I've been in contact with them about how much money they would need to provide the COVID response assistance that they proposed is $192,000. And I have the language to include in the bill if you want me to include it in the bill. Yeah, well, I think we need to talk about that to see how in depth that would be and if it would cover the needs that we heard about this morning from some of the witnesses. So we'll plan to do that Tuesday morning then. Is that okay with you, Michael? You'll be free. I think, I'm not sure when it's already scheduled me but she generally just blocks out my time on Tuesdays and- She's a real hummer to work with. I just blocked it out, doesn't he mash? Yeah, yep. So yeah, I'll be available. Yeah, anything else from anybody? No, I gotta go put a tie and jacket on. Yeah, I gotta get ready. Well, have a good weekend, everybody and thanks a lot for everything. We'll see you in 10 minutes. You too, Bobby.