 Hamilton, Jerry, how are you doing? Are you not hearing me? Yes. Excellent. I can hear you Do not have my headphones in. I'm good. How are you? Pretty good, I think pretty good. Yeah the Steward ownership thing with Jordan I think is going to move and maybe move quickly and maybe be really good for us And that just feels good There's a lot of ogm-ness in the air. There's other movements and other things that are like Doing trying to do what we're just trying to do only different and they don't they don't overlap with us, but they're good. Hey Pete morning Um, so feeling good that way Nice. Yeah partly this conversation knows the fact to are having talked Many moons ago. I know I know and I feel I feel bad as I've missed like I've had bad timing the last A couple Tuesdays because I feel disconnected from the arc of it. Matt and I have been Ships passing in the night. I'm talking about it We will get you back caught up. Yes Maybe while it's a little bit quiet, I can This is the current version of the dashboard cool The the items are these are all pretty good items, but there's probably a bunch missing at this point I've went through different iterations making it more complex and less complex. So this is where I am right now And if you click on one, does it spill out people and stuff like that or? Um, this is actually just a reminder to add people. Okay. I've had other ones that have people You know, there's actually nothing in status right now. I don't know a little bit Anyway, I the next step might be working on this a little bit more and getting it to be usable by By folks who need to use it. Awesome, which I think is very few people You guys like my t-shirt? I got this for Christmas It's awesome. Oh, wow Oh my god, that's awesome Lin Manuel Miranda. Yeah That's great Oh god, so Pete what is um What's the epic the the column that is? Um, thanks for asking and I apologize for like No, no, no on the table and whipping it away I'm I'm Um I think well, I think this tool is super important and we haven't had it for a long time and I've been working on it working on it And I guess I don't know I'm both excited and tired about of it. Um Uh epic and and department is actually in transition. Um, there was a iteration of this where These projects were actually more like like sections of projects so getting ogm on social media is actually I mean, it's a It's actually almost an epic itself now that I think about it. Does epic ring a bell with with scram or agile or Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah That that was the intent of it. So the intent was kind of like, um, maybe there is I I would actually make this an epic Ogm on social media is an epic and then underneath that that would be like, you know identifying channels identifying internal people who want to work on it creating a social media calendar or whatever whatever whatever, right? So, um Um That was kind of the intent of the the original epic thing and some of them are kind of still like that I went through and deleted a few of these um But then but then another way to think of it. I think maybe more productive Is these are departments of ogm and there's I think This is kind of in between a a pure corporate department thing, which is another another useful cut. So, um, You know, all organizations you can think of them. They have marketing. They have Sales they have You know internal operations. They have, you know, that kind of stuff So literally you could you could have corporate departments in here instead of the things that I have Um So lionsburg is kind of a epic Internal tools is kind of a department so Still morphing it over And love it flotilla is an external department And this is part of the language we need to sort out because you sent me a nice note about Defining some of these things and figuring out what is flotilla and sort of reifying them And for me departments and epics are new language On top of language. We're still discussing So I while I like them They're confusing because I already had like five different nouns that that you're making we're making sense in my head Um, so I think we should figure out what our objects are and which one is which kind of object I think that's important. Yeah, and the way I would do that is by drawing them Yeah This is you know, this is a quiesce of the guild The um Some of the stuff that I I've actually I've been not getting back to Tony has been falling off my stock and I need to connect with him better But some of the stuff that Tony and I did made made the the nouns of of things Like really crisp in my head. Well, that's good. Okay yeah, because for me like For me free Jerry's brain is a quest But its members are the are the beginning of a guild But but free Jerry's brain isn't a guild the members of free Jerry's brain are probably the founding members of some kind of infrastructure guild Which we haven't really named yet, but that but that would be like a guild of You know foundation pourers or whatever that might be and meet and mean brain And whatever other bits of code get built within free Jerry's brain are projects, but not they're not quests They're individual projects of some sort and we haven't got a special name for projects But for me That's a project and if it becomes a piece of code we care about long term Maybe that has a different name than just a short term project But to me to me this the stuff we make Needs a name as well because it's an object right because me and brain winds up being a thing for example Yeah, I think so talking through that kind of stuff. I you know, I I would I I have more or less the same vocabulary I would tweak it a little bit It's kind of interesting I I created flotilla as a as a using as a guild and as a Well, I created a guild and a quest or a project and a community of practice Um, so So one of them is named flotilla project and then the other one is named tools for connectors And at some point on one of our calls vincent to his very patient and very accommodating Said, oh my god, we have too many names. Um, and it's he's he's got too many name, uh PTSD from his family business because they made a whole bunch of little lscs to kind of like Partition the thing properly like the coffee business. Yeah A 20 million dollar company or you know, a hundred million dollar company and and they're not quite that big yet. I don't think um, anyway, this this was from working with tony and there's um, there's a So these are almost the verbs of stuff, you know, and then the verbs kind of these are actions So they connect nouns um, one of the really interesting things was um This thing where I've got them all labeled quest quest quest quest there's a um these This is a a cycle where internal to To ogm. I think when we get going we'll be noticing a a class of problems like we need to um People keep talking about diagramming and visualization, you know, and and it seems like there's some activity there and you can kind of coalesce that into Um, hey, you know, we could you know, are there people interested in diagramming that whole uh, Game stop thing and how that worked, you know And so then this is kind of spinning up a quest or a project or or something like that similar to you know, meme brain, you know free jerry's brain meme brain, you know So what you just described there with all the quest tagged line items seem to me to be a template for action Yes, okay, but they're confusing to me as activity as on the activity dashboard because Well together there there might be one activity that says create a template for ogme action Like how do we take action and then all the items you just described would be sub subbed under that Yeah, um, it's it's an artifact of of how tony and I Worked through this. Um, so all of these things tony tony and I tony was just basically kept asking questions I think you guys do, you know x and I'm like, well, actually we don't do x but we do, you know zed, you know ab um so um So one of the things is well, I bet you guys, you know Do this stuff as this is like your main thing and I'm like, well, actually it turns out We don't do any of that right now But you know, I can see how this group is going to be doing this so This is You know, for better or for worse where we got to this this This tool here tracks like generic activities that ogm might be involved in at whatever level As you know, this this is something that I've been wanting to draw out as a separate loop thing And it would be on a separate diagram then, you know the kind of the main line activities of of Of ogm Hi, lauren. Hi, judy Pete is showing us the air table dashboard that he has been building For us to figure out where the hell we are and what we're doing, which is awesome And the table you were just showing feels to me a little bit almost like a chart of accounts in quickbooks in this Yeah, in the in the sense of These are all meta activities we would do but none of them are actually a named project meaning Outreach outreach is a category of things. That's awesome And we need to figure out how to do outreach and then in outreach and then community building is Is a thing we should do and these are you know out onboarding new members is one of the aspects It might be on this one or the other one? The other one Yeah, this one so everything in column a all the activities feel to me like like Things that ogm does But none of them are specifically a thing ogm is about to undertake, right? Yes So so hey, we've decided we're going to map the game stop debacle Would be a would be a short term activity that could turn into a quest maybe if it grows It could just be like a little experiment and maybe we maybe we need a name for Prop, you know Project experiments or something like that, but then it becomes to me a task like items So that's why i'm saying that what i'm looking at in this table feels like the chart of accounts where In an accounting package the chart of accounts is this is consulting This is patreon. This is something else and each one each one is a line of the kind of activity the enterprise engages in Yep, it that's a well apprehended. Yes, cool. That's exactly what it is. Okay, so then so then once we start doing things We could pick from okay now we're in the Determine initial problems in the sense making aspect of How we pick up and launch new projects, which sounds great to me and and we may want a tiny hierarchy of these things Yes, and that may be its own that may be its own little lookup table or something like that So we can use that as a language For how we do things. Yes fine to me the um, there's a There's uh, this I I don't know that I would Well, it turns out that this is actually a pretty good representation of things and it's useful. I this is not It's it's barely a communication tool because it's it's fairly Complicated and it doesn't this is this should really be a set of diagrams not an air table is where I'm going with that um You mean like a flow chart of how we work? Yeah different flow charts in different cycles like you know It's super useful for me and and I've been surprised with air table It it helps me do I I can do this kind of sense making into air table now And flesh out a bunch of stuff that that should be on a diagram And you know discover all kinds of really interesting You know attributes of kind of the way things are connected, but then This is really it's not even a power tool or it's it's not even really an assistive device It's kind of like a background sketch that You know, I guess uh, this is this is like In if you're making a complicated film there must be massive sets of spreadsheets, you know, like these are all the locations This is the way the different characters interact. You know, this is the costumes. They're supposed to be wearing in each scene Right. Well, this is um, if this were a movie we were making then the line items in kellum a would be Uh, you know recruit recruit photography staff recruits location scouts recruit All the positions for making a movie and then You know, uh, book book equipment schlepping, etc. etc All all of that would pile into the kinds of activities And then if we decided to make shakespeare in love, then it would then it would have people and and uh Actual places in it. It would it would suddenly be instantiated as a project plan for for humans to go do Yeah, yeah, I sure wish I'd worked on shakespeare in love. That's so much So Lauren judy hi just we don't want to just keep sort of talking. This is lovely I just want to check in and see if you have any and lauren you've been working on a lot of organizational stuff. Hey scott Um, just want to check in with you guys and see how you're doing on the steering front G Um, I'm not steering very well today. Oh good. The tiller is like loose. Yeah, the teller is loose. I'm just um, I've been so busy with so many different things that I'm kind of Contemplating limited stacations um, but But I think that what we're doing is really important and I love hearing what pete's doing because he's always got so much new stuff That he's accomplished in the week in between um I think What I'm pondering about is is just this vast territory of continuum of what it is We're steering because we're going to many Different directions and things are starting to move with various people Um, so even keeping track of what's going on is a little bit challenging Thank you. And I think um, my Posted video was an attempt to do that. I think we need to do that and sort of reify it much more and talk it through and marry Mary that to the tables that pete is just just showing so that that becomes one story and one way to To track these things and then to take things like here's class Here's claus's project Here's how here's how we name it. Here's how it fits. Here's how we can be helpful to it Here's the secret sauce that ogm brings to claus's project because why else would he be here? Um, other than he likes the people But but how does this all sort of click together into a thing that ogm does and then the line items on the activities That pete was just showing us our Are hopefully nice descriptions of the way we step through doing things like even including even How do we how do we identify a new project and call it something? Right that that's part of the middle of what what pete had there on on screen That sounds good to me. I I'm just I'm grappling with starting to have a number of different interactions with individuals about things that we're interested in trying to do together and keeping track of To what extent we need to formalize that Um, because it feels natural for it to be kind of informal initially until it comes something that Where there's a contemplated work product Um, or an outcome or a framework or something of that order. Yeah It feels like to me there's a couple sort of little thresholds there as you start like hey, let's let's make a movie, right? um Or let's put on a show the Judy garland and mickey rooney kind of line um There's a couple thresholds one is is it is it og me? Does this feel like a piece of the community because you could go float off and do something else and that'd be totally fine And that's you know, you you're using your time in a way you'd like to so if it is og me Do you want ogm to hear about it so that? Other parts of ogm will be alerted like hey, there's an interesting thing I should ask judy if I can show up to their calls for example, right in which case then How do you announce it? What do you call it? Where do you put it? Which is what we're trying to frame up here, right? um, and That that's most of it. I mean, uh, and then what and then once you've put it in the stream Then people know to look they people need to know where to look for things like that and then show up And then that's how we kind of staff and think through um ogm me things and then and then I think there's sort of an intimacy gradient of projects There's some things that are just things that individuals are doing or or like scots intellectual framework things that they've been working on for a really long time That are their projects that are that in fact they're working really hard to sort of exclude too much outside stuff So that they can frame it and deliver it as it's as it's being birthed inside of them Uh, and then there's there's other kinds of projects, uh, whether it be, uh Kiko labs educational projects or whatever else where there's there's some really nice overlap of communities But so far not that much overlap of pro projects and work How do we how do we like turn that on so that kiko lab feels a really positive effect from Being part of ogm as practice not just as community. Does that make sense? mm-hmm Go ahead. I have a question too Because as all of this evolves and becomes more elaborate Do we sort of have a like I don't know an ogm channel listing? Um, I have my own of the things that I now participate in you know put on as recurring meetings or other things like that but as as we start to have subsets coming up Are we do we contemplate or do we already have a channel listing that says that now we have You know pure gaji meeting at two o'clock of tuesdays and so forth Um, because I have a bunch of these on my calendar that I'm dealing with right But as we grow It's going to become an unmanageable pet coiff of of information and How would I know That there's other than lauren telling me or Charles or sought or somebody saying hey judy you might be interested in x Right, right or tracking the various lists that wherever we're all on or the telegrams or the whatever's So vincent has been working on an air table with event schedules Uh, I'm not a calendar master because I tend to make mistakes using the actual calendars too often But I would love to figure out how to marry what vincent is building with our calendars So that it all kind of works and we can go look at the big board and say oh, here's where I'd like to go next Yeah, that master calendar that he's working on is intriguing and the calendar sharing I'm just not a google calendar person. So that's a big thing the calendar is Is partly that I I think the answer to judy's question is probably more like you go to the home page Um, and you know, there's different sections and under this one section There's meetings in another section. There's communication channels or something like that So there should be a few pages on the website that just tell you In an ideal world What you're what you're asking about should look a little bit like an open space meeting Like like what we're doing is we're holding a protracted You know multi-month open space meeting and you go to the board and see what's next Which session you want to go to next and then some of those sessions are tagged as hey This is a recurring meeting that happens every Tuesday at two or whatever And then you can note that and you can just sort of add that in that would be that would be nice to Nice to manage that way and and I think For me since there are there are certain themes coming up that are recurring You know where people have already expressed interest in others who said yeah, I'm cool with that too Entergenerational learning would be one You know Education, I don't like the word education, but relearning or whatever we're going to create is a new word for Positive changes to the opportunities of increasing one's knowledge I need a great one word for that sort of thing Community engagement I'm just throwing up categories, but just to get a sense of Would we have a map of some sort that would allow someone who Wants to dive into a particular zone to do that or would they do that from the master list pete as you envision in terms of the I think that's It's kind of interesting the categories you're talking about are a little bit bigger than the ones that that I've been bumping into or running across so I think Where you would find that is on Another thing that that Vincent and I are working on are our directories. So project directories, guild directories, people directories So somewhere in the project directory You'd you'd have categories in there probably but but Probably you wouldn't you wouldn't find What you would do is you'd see three projects or three guilds or something Working on education. You wouldn't see education as the thing that you want to go glum onto you go Education would be one of those meta tags. Yeah, this one about You know reaching out to you know to disadvantaged youth in your own community That's the one that I want, you know, that's things for me and it's in the education category And it's also lovely It's sort of a nice irony that in asking your question to be said like Shouldn't there be like a map of this and we're all about like mapping these kinds of things So we're busy trying to use tinker toys to build something that should be a lot smoother and better Um, I don't mean I'm not I'm just asking questions and I'm hardly aware. Well, that's okay. No, I like it. I like it I mean, it's like we we're carpenters who are busy trying to invent the ads Um Well, it's it's all about engaging people You know, how do how do we connect? and I love our weekly ogm calls But and and at the same time I want to Figure out where to dive in Uh, totally agree. Um, and this is necessary. Um, and I want to So the jordan sukuit lionsburg Steward ownership thing is moving relatively apace and before I switched to that topic scott. What did you want to jump in like? um Yeah related to what you said my challenge lately has been if to jump in And and what I'm becoming increasingly aware of Is my propensity to want to help Contrasted with my available time. You need to get things done Right. Um, I'm sure my freelance work has has ramped up significantly But there's also this growing understanding that When I say yes to lauren And then don't do it That's a problem It's a problem for me. It's a problem for her and so I think It's just this growing feeling like I keep saying. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, let's do this. This will be great and then You know, I bump into reality and I realize I can't I've got these other things going on and when I have to weigh it out It's like, okay I have this paying thing that's in my face that I need to deliver I don't have this other thing that I want to do and to be helpful and reciprocal and Like I can't And then I feel bad about it Because I've said sure. Yeah. Yeah, I'll help you with that And then I don't And then I my tendency is to just like Just pull away Well, you pulled back in order to not make commitments that are too hard to or, you know, not not going to get full Yeah, but it feels like ghosting. Yeah, you know, I kind of broke up. I didn't even text you You know, I just didn't I just didn't appear anymore and Project ghosting. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. And so so that's that's kind of I mean All these things are so cool that you're all working on and and yet at the same time I'm realizing I can't do I can't be part of them all I can't be part of them all and it hurts when I say You know, you show up and and I'm picturing the zoom call and I'm thinking well There's only going to be five or six seven people there and if I'm not there That's that's like 20 percent. Yeah. Yeah, so So so I have two different answers. There's your comments to this. I'd love to know what other people think but but One one comment is Just the obvious one about we all need to figure out time management. I am terrible at it I have too many oars in the water one. That's one of my major issues And so so you've just pointed like at the heart of like one of the things I need to conquer Then I may never manage to conquer in my life, but I try really hard The other thing actually takes me back into work the the side Path the sidetrack that I was going to take us down with jordan, which is at a very nice call with jordan yesterday And at the end of it, he's like, so what's top of mind for you right now? And I'm like, well, there's there's our project together to frame up ogm and put a structure around it and then I'm Trying to drum up business because I my revenues for the last couple years have sucked I don't have growing individual sort of stuff going on and I need speeches and I need, you know, whatever else it is or Inside jerry's brain sessions or whatnot and he he sort of he very very nicely sort of pulled me up and said so As we move forward and start doing stuff together This is part of think of our conversation on thursday to try to start figuring these things out But as we move together if somebody's going to work with you they need to know That kind of you're all in with them on stuff and they need to understand that you're not working on your own behalf only Because of this sort of thing over here or if you are that that's clear and they understand where that boundary lies and for me I'd like I'd like to figure out a way because you know at the end of the conversation i'm like Damn it. He's completely a thousand percent right I need to figure out how to make sure that all my efforts are ogm efforts and that if I get remunerated A word that came up in our monday call several times. We had trouble saying it over and over again If I get paid for doing some work on a project that it's an ogm project And that there were there were slices of revenue going through the whole ogm ecosystem As opposed to just expediently doing side stuff for me because that gets confusing for other people trying to work with me And that was that was really interesting to me and it was like oh, okay I need to sort of think that myself is all in and that was really complicated for me because I need to very expediently and very quickly make some money on you know doing stuff And then that's and this this now becomes This now becomes a lovely barrier in my way to doing that because the the level of complexity for approaching somebody and doing something Just bounced up Right, so I think that the faster we get some structure around ogm and we can say there's a non-profit There's a for-profit. Here's how they work and this is what a project is. This is what a quest is This is what a guild does. This is how they fit. This is what a member is and how they you know, what members do and then and have Affordances like the directories and the air tables that pete and vincent are building And and other sorts of visualizations of this flow so that people can understand what you know How the parts move the sooner we will be in a place where clouds can not only be An enthusiastic participant here and then Lauren and Charles with their educational initiatives But they can also point to and this is how we fit in ogm And this is how ogm has helped us and this is how we're all building assets together and where those assets are going to go And all those moving parts find that being things we can actually You know talk about and point to and and show In different places and you know and here's our github repository This is where we put all the open source code that we've developed as part of our multiple quests and efforts And it has it has a place and you can go leave through it or it has a tag Maybe it's not in the same github repo, but it's actually tagged in the same way with ogm something something something But i'm i can easily envision all those things So i'm eager to step us into the structure if it's the right structure So the conversations we need to have about The steward ownership model in lionsburg is is this the right thing are these the right people because they're multiple organizational schemes that The groups like us are finding and fitting into and i met several of you including Lauren through dig life And we had long conversations there about a multi state multi stakeholder cooperatives Turns out if you want to be a multi stakeholder cooperative, good luck to you Because there aren't enough states that know how to do that the process is really well known You are a pioneer out in the field. So we ended up creating a What was it i forgot which which model it was called it was a work It was a version of a worker-owned co-op I don't know exactly what but that sort of got got created along the way And then our efforts kind of petered out Right about at the point where these things started to to get reified and get you know Come into sort of real things go ahead Pete And i get me to get my power point here my my guess is um That the whole you know structure and ownership thing is is huge and complicated Um But having done it for a long time in entrepreneurial settings The I think this is where where I start to think about small groups of federated Organizations or groups of small federated organizations rather than a big organization, right? So when When you start to say ownership instead of commons I You don't want The the more people you have co-owning something the the harder and harder it gets to manage So I think really what you want is Five or six people, you know in a in a very tightly constrained kind of thing where they all trust each other very high trust a lot of Co-interest, you know when things change and they need to change with it so So when I think of so it's interesting thinking when I when I've heard you and You talking about Jordan talking about steward ownership. It's like oh, well, we'll have a share of ogm. It's like, yeah actually when I'm thinking operationally, it's more like There's probably 20, you know little art of clusters Where you know, that's where the ownership ends up ownership and a thing ends up being And I think those would overlap, you know, so there's the pete and Vincent and and bill, you know cluster that you know does one kind of thing and and maybe own some IP or or owns You know some I I don't know. I guess revenue stream or something like that um, and then there's also, you know, Vincent and and um, I don't know who else Vincent and a few other people, you know overlaps with He's he's in other organizations So it's it's kind of funny now that I'm thinking about it using Vincent as a pivot Point in the example because he was the guy who was like, dang I got too many things but um, but I I think I think one of the one of the you know, I'm in reflecting at kind of my watching and participating in Organizations coming together like this. It's like Well, what we want to be is one big organization that you know co-owns everything and we all have shares and what want It's just like it gets too big you really have to cut it up into smaller pieces And then those pieces have agreements with each other to get things done to You know to share things and now I like that So I think we may be closer than you think so in what I've said I don't think I've ever uttered this a sentence like we'll all have a share of ogm That's you know that that's something you're assuming and I don't think I've said And one of the one of the reasons that Jordan is really big on Steward ownership is he says when you have a normal shareholder company and everybody divides up shares and you bring in a new partner You have to figure out who gets diluted and and like like and then when there's a divorce Shit hits fan and everything breaks and he says this structure avoids all of that So we'll have his roles and we'll have the ownership winds up being in the commons And there's a big mental shift, which is we're all working together To foster better commons while we're making a living doing so And there need to be some light filters for which words are completely trustworthy in this and are all in on the working principles That are shared by this constellation And they can have their own ownership and they can like I think I agree highly with the idea of Autonomous whether it's just a working team that doesn't have a dba That is just a bunch of people who love working together who want to go from project to project fantastic or whatever Or csc and then What kind of company is cnc and how does it how does it adhere or connect to? an ogm platform Pardon Doing business as a fictitious business name. Yeah Um, and are you a registered entity with in what in what municipality are you like? Homed etc etc like are you are you a business and do you do you pay a little bit of business taxes? That that's a that's a threshold for a kind of organizational Structure or capacity And so i'm interested in this being a constellation or a star nursery Of projects companies other sorts of things that are busy forming and doing the kinds of interactions I think the peak that you just described without the complexities of oh god Who owns shares and what do we have now? And with the benefits of oh Because we're in this this constellation and not that one which is run by intellectual ventures, which is also known as intellectual vultures We're not busy sucking up the the commons and locking away intellectual property and trying to maximize Like our ethos is this other ethos over here, which we can point to And if you don't adhere to that ethos, that's probably a filter for us not wanting to do very much with you And also and also a filter for whether or not you'll be attracted to this particular constellation not that one Does that make sense? Yeah So I think I think we're not that far away And that's one of the reasons why I really like Where jordan is steering us and I think he's seeing I mean I think and i'm Speaking for him here, but I think he's seeing that we're trying to model the way that Most companies and organizations and nonprofits ought to be working together in the future that instead of for profit fully for profit consumer capitalist corporation s-corps that are busy Trying to fight their greedy battle against other ones owning an electro property, but then or not We're actually going to have profitable enterprises on top of An environment that allows them to nurture the commons and yet make a great living together. Does that make sense? Lauren, go ahead. That's god. I'm just going to read your note now. Go ahead I just want to say charles and I got a mentor from colonel who's the um crypto related ip guy and I also have another guy I met through my alumni association Who's an ip um lawyer at scatton? So if there are specific questions, um, I'd be happy to direct those Thank you. And I think when we get to ip issues will We'll need to find some sort of commons ip people and I think in our crowds I think peter and I specifically or particularly know a a bunch of smart people who've been doing that kind of work as well And care very deeply about about how these things work So I I have to I have to jump in here Because my my comment here felt like a dissent To me on your comment in the yeah my yeah my chat. Okay, so I'm I'm you know, I'm just realizing that I I just think you are the coolest most interesting people to talk to and this means in a group collectively so thursdays Here and what everybody's up to I think it's awesome and then one on one every single one of my experiences I haven't had a lot, but they've all been just like more I want more of that that's that's great and and This steering committee has been talking about the structure And the organization of this and how do we How do we federate and make this into something that has a form and and can can get things done in the world? and I Have been feeling like I don't know if I'm I don't know if I'm steering I think I'm in the back seat kind of like looking out the window and enjoying the view. Um And I thought that that comment would would Would maybe put some distance between what you're trying to do and what I was feeling And I and there's three people who jumped in and said Yeah, I'm feeling this too what you wrote what sounds awesome. It doesn't sound like a dissent at all to me. Well, and and so that's where I'm like You know, I every time this steering committee comes up. I think why am I here? I've done no I've done none of these things, you know, and I just look at this and I think I'm just I'm just having fun here I'm enjoying this ride if I can help anybody because I have time I will But you know, I I'm just so anyway, I'm just really surprised that that A number of you are also feeling the same thing I can comment because My sense is not that I'm trying to steer a ship Or that I'm trying to organize it in some particular way I'm just Wanting to affirm who I think we are And how we live and and how we want to work with people And I'm interested in what structures we can create By by we I probably mostly mean Pete because he seems to be right at the center of Trying to lend order to this lovely chaos that we all enjoy But I think being able to have the ability to use systems to enable The expansion of this sense of joy and creating good things and enjoying good people and making the world a better place Is important to do So I don't see myself as doing a lot of steering in the sense of up in the motorhouse Turn left turn right It's more an appreciation Of the magnitude of what we're trying to do and how to make it somewhat manageable I think go ahead. Thanks. Yeah Um, thank thanks for saying what you you said scott and it makes sense I I think that so for me it's kind of a continuum, right? It's like I like to hang out with these people um And I get distracted because I have to do work that pulls me away from these people so What I'm where I'm going what I'm what my thinking process is is I like hanging out with these people. I would love to work with these people You know, I would love to when I get a client. I would love to share the work here And I would love to it sounds like they do cool stuff and when they get work I would love to help them work on it, right? so I feel like it's a continuum and a you know an evolution of of working together and and Especially agreeing on a way that that the world should work and that people should work together And you know helping teach that to the rest of the world Yeah Hamilton, do you want to jump in? Yeah, and um, I mean I agree with it's interesting scott And I also appreciate you saying that um Like it feels like there's two things that have emerged from all these ogm conversations um And what's emerged on for thursday for me is like it's a salon It's like if I've always wanted to be a member of a salon. I'm so I'm really grateful for that Maybe I'm don't really understand what really happened in the salons, but um, so I'm just grateful for that the great I mean just hearing and and and talking about where there's opportunity to do better and how people are doing it Just meeting all of you is like that full stop has been a value that I would love and would continue to love um And then you know the other thing Judy what you're characterizing is is this trying to mobilize a collective effort to change the world with this Um is super interesting to me, but it's that's It's so enormous that task and the and the group of people are so diverse It's like hard to understand what a minimum viable product would even be to to get us off the dock And I think that's where we keep coming back to and jerry what you were just talking about too is Little things right little orglets little things that make money just so we can just move this huge conceptual thing into some things that are real whether it's money making or Charitable or you know more philanthropic or four commons And so that's where I feel like these two where I when I come to these Tuesday meetings And I haven't been doing it a lot because my time has been so limited is What is a minimum viable product? Is it a story threading gig jerry? Right? Is it some way of bringing your brain into I was hoping some of those things would materialize then we that would give us something Like we could sink our teeth into and it would give us the the beginning of a spine and some skeleton. Yeah And and pete i'm really interested and and I know you've shared it before of like You said you've had experience of seeing these types of things emerge of just Continuing to tap into the different models that are out there, right? I know we've talked about it But because this is really really hard. I mean we we are a Group of friends who do not have a boss. We do not have a p&l Um, you know, we're in different time zones and and different clients And so it's really hard to mobilize and organize and get and get stuff done and pete that's where You know Your idea of like five people fully committed and bought in I think is is since I don't want to say it's It's a must have but I could certainly see how that type of structure would certainly help Move decisions forward move progress, you know And some of the doing of things and making of things So scott then me so my pete i'm with you and and and the The thing that jumped out at me that you said was Love being here with all these people. Yes. I agree with that and then they have to go I'm distracted by the work I have to do and I'm and it's just like it hit me That's the problem is that that's actually the work. I'm supposed to be doing if I want to stay fed and You know and and yet because this is so attractive That feels like the distraction And what I what you what you've crystallized for me is I got to the point Where I was here Thursday metacogs kiko lab and individual conversations And when the work would pop up I get annoyed like Damn it. I don't want to I don't want to have this This freelance thing that's going to take me all day because then I can't be on the call and then But and so what subconsciously I pulled away because then You guys weren't there And I didn't feel as bad, you know because it was like, okay Well, you were you're there, but you're you're busy doing your own thing and now I'm not I'm focused Well all in chair you said something about all in and I had heard this in the context of a marriage Which I thought was really interesting If you're not all in you're not married And I thought it's it's like wow that's that's it's really true You can't you can't straddle that you have to You have to be in and but anyway that that was kind of beside so the big deal for me is that what's the distraction And and I'm trying to discern that for myself What if the freelance work and ogm were the same thing? I see that but I don't see is the bridge And going going over that bridge It's like I have to let go of the other one You know and and that's kind of like so so honestly part of my pulling away is hoping that I can continue making something that will Maybe allow me to go take that bridge And and the other thing is to like okay, you guys will figure that out Then when I re-engage which I feel horrible about right Don't feel horrible about that and like seriously. I re-engage like oh you've got this figured out and built this new thing So so a couple things one Scott the heartful way in which you are here with us Like now and always just warms my heart. I'm just thrilled Thrilled that you're here that you love being with us that you are generously contributing of your ideas and time and all that Like I'm like over the moon There's I put in legitimate peripheral participation Which is a way too many syllables expression that comes out of the communities of practice work that atn vanger and gene Lave did years ago, but it's a really nice term because it says in a community of practice There's a bunch of people who are at the periphery and they're not jumping in And that's great. They perform an incredibly useful Sort of role in the community because every now and then Something lights up in the community that that sparks them and they jump into the middle and take a turn That everybody then hears from and learns from and benefits from And kind of that's what we have just on the ogm mailing list and that are very are slightly too many art You know artifacts are ways of creating that flow That flood of what's everybody working on? What do we care about? How do we wrestle through this? Okay, let's try to sort things out and then and then we're busy trying to build scaffolding So we figure out okay if this is an organization What does that even mean and I'm really reticent to make it a traditional organization Which would mean an exit strategy silicon valley, you know escort or whatever. It's like I don't want that I've seen those fail. I've seen those crash and burn way too often And so has Pete so have so have probably most of you and so I'm busy trying to hold back The the the structure in some sense so that we can work our way into something that sounds like it could be A place where we can each bring our work as long as it's resonant with the general Thing that we that we think ogm is or where it's heading and then there would there would be and should be other constellations called Game B called whatever Which are busy with their own structures in their own ethos in their own principles and and the law of attraction And I don't mean here the the crystals sort of sort of thing I just mean that the law of two feet is probably the better way of putting it Which is one of the sort of precepts of open space meetings People going toward where they're genius and their life energy is best used and if we can make a living while doing that Bingo we've likely struck the trifecta because then we're in a community. We love doing work We love and and it's all kind of aligned in ways that really work And and so that's kind of where I'm trying to aim and as I as I hear and smell pieces that Feel like they're going to get us there like jordan's lionsburg venture like that. Okay. How do I get us in that tractor beam? How do I make us a piece of that thing so that we become that kind of entity so that We can have those kinds of interactions and none of this is adequately spelled out explained All of our artifacts are still kind of squishy and it's like jello being nailed to the tree right now so we need to get there more but I think where we're heading is is that and It feels like we're not steering right now because right now like I put in the chat It's we're more like a river raft where everybody's oars in the water matter But it's okay that we have a bunch of people in the middle of the raft not steering not pulling That's fine because for some weird reason our raft is like pretty floaty and we're going to be okay We don't have holes in the raft because We're volunteering our time here Like if we were if we were all drawing salaries and we had no business coming in there'd be like big tears in the raft But since our raft is really like flimsy and lightweight We don't have that What we have is this nice structure that can float down the river and we're busy trying to figure out What is it? How does it work? Well part of what I think is happening though is that everybody who's in the raft or Hanging onto the ropes on the side of the raft or whatever the metaphor might be I'm just taking this to all the other groups. I work with In a conceptual sort of way and saying, you know, I've been learning how to do this cool stuff using collective tools to Communicate and frame context and all these groups are virtual right now, you know, whether it's the international focus and policy level stuff of the committee that I mentioned I was on with ACS It's really enlivened by the fact that now there's an opportunity for science in the US And they interface with the White House OSTP and stuff like that But they're not using any good tools, you know, they did a zoom meeting and I'm like, are you saving the chat to distribute? And they said that's a good idea and I'm like, uh, excuse me so There's a there's a an enablement that our energy can help with And I think in some ways that's the minimum viable product. It's not commercialized yet But I think it could be as a packet, you know, here's a way to Enable a collective group of people working on whatever it is you're working on To do a better job of keeping track what you're doing because people are at such highly variable skill levels You know, they're way worse than I was three and a half years ago when I started learning from you guys, you know Including pieces like how to learn and what's out there to learn like like the the education pieces and the learning pieces that we've got in the mix here are really really important because They're a part of how people flow in here and start to ladder up because they're like Oh, I would like to join that thing But they need these kinds of skills and a piece of this is just the matching of where your skills are Today what you would like to do in the future and how that fits what's in the flow Right, and then you find your way to the different kinds of projects that you can that you can work on And and I'm excited because I think that if we do this right and Jordan's holding a really large vision of transforming all of society By modeling a platform that works better for people and for the commons And for and for community at large Because I think he and I share the assumption that the current flavor of capitalism that has eaten our world Isn't that good for our world? Yeah, right and I think that there's a common critique. There's a whole mess of people I can point to and I collect them all in my brain Uh who think that that's a problem And so this is one set of solutions to that set of problems And it feels like a pretty viable thing to me Although it's not a tangible thing to me quite yet Which is why I'm really excited about the conversations coming up And I want to say before we all have to bounce here that we're currently planning a Call for Thursday after the ogm call. I put that on the matter most Uh, but Thursday after the ogm call to have a basically a facilitated Call to start this conversation about what these things look like. So I'm hoping that you can participate Go ahead Lauren um, I just wanted to say I'm planning on making a move to bring in A few people closer basically who who I attract um with my idea, but um, you know, I talked to judy about this last night To make a small group that kind of shamelessly promotes each other Um, because I think that we are all Um, we all find it very hard. I think it's like, um, we're just the kind of people who are not Shameless self-promoters and we have we all have amazing contacts But it is hard for us to tap into those like deep connections because It's hard for us to you know do that for ourselves. And so I It's just my theory from looking around and trying to figure out what uh, we need um, I think a group like this we're I'm gonna try to figure out how to gamify with incentives. I think we need and then to Basically what I'm trying to do is to create a power structure that is That you can see it and that there are very clear instructions On how to get power and those reflect the values that we have and then it's um It's visible then this is how you get power This is who has power and this this is what power consists of this is what abilities that it gives you And what I came up with jerry was kind of based on what our conversation on the dojo And you explain the structure of the person at the bottom Who does the crap work of like sweeping and taking care of everyone and they end up kind of getting the most power? um and so it's kind it's based on that idea which is that Um, whoever like does the most promotion of other people It's to kind of direct the swarm So that the lowliest like most gracious person who's always promoting other people advances the quickest and that's that's my idea Muted I was muted. Sorry. I may be misappropriating the term But a couple years ago there was this notion of thunder claps where you get a crowd of people together And you all kind of sync your social media accounts And then you drop messages into that and everybody like retweets and everybody posts and comments and everybody likes And what you get is like a vastly amplified way of doing it. So if you look at thunderclaps social media I just posted the one thing that showed up when I googled it There that might that might help you structure what you're doing Great. Yes, give you some ideas. Go ahead judy. Well, I'm just What I'm fascinated by is is sort of the dichotomy of thinking about ourselves as a profit-making enterprise in some one sense because we want to be self sustaining and thinking about us as You know, open global mind OGM E is just share what we have to make the world a better place and there's there threads in between But what I'm finding An opportunity to do is to just introduce every group I work with to OGM practices and Teach them to the extent I can and say well, if you want to learn more I know some people who can do this more effectively than I can But I think our meetings would be more effective. I think we'd get more done I think we decide what it is that we want to work on first and we'd work on it together and so forth and I think that's To use my own overused word. That's a dendritic approach to just getting it out there And not particularly worrying about the monetizing Because I think what we're doing Per se would be hard to monetize But I think the facilitators who help people do it That's a known known social structure of value And so it's kind of as somebody coined the frame, you know, that we're a collaboration of consultants And I think that's kind of the role You know, if you want help come to us if you think it's valuable pay us But we want these things to happen and then we should be happy if people emulated and perpetuated So a couple thoughts off that. Um, I I think I told this story recently to Pete or something in a meeting I don't remember where I said it this recently, but I know I've told the story but in grad school my second year I had a great household in west Philly And one of us had lived in a great household at the University of York in canada And he brought with him some house rules that we adopted immediately wholesale and they worked Fantastically and they were very different from Everybody needs to mark their food with a marker and you know, this is your shelf and this is my shelf And that's how we divide up the fridge and they were we had very different working rules from the usual How you split up a multi-person household and they were great and I was like, okay, good So partly what I'm trying to think of is the things that you're propagating are things you're seeing In other places like ogm. We need to make them more shareable. We need to make those stories very portable So you can say hey, I think that if we did the Philly household thing and here's a video explaining what those rules were Boom, somebody else picks it up. They had they adapt and appropriate it to their circumstances They make it theirs, which is really important in the whole process Lather rinse repeat worldwide And then and then to add to that this back to the conversation with Jordan I think that one of the big shifts that's possible right now is moving from sort of profit making and profit maximization It's got a name profit Regency. No, it's it's in my brain Primacy, I think it's something like shareholder primacy I think is the one of the overall umbrellas here moving from a regime where Companies need to suck dry everything they touch or they will be sued Into a regime where you can make profits while improving your commons I think that's one of the big societal shifts that I'm hoping I want to spend my life energy making happen shareholder primacy. Thank you I want to make this thing happen And I think that that's a piece of what Jordan wants to make happen, which is why I feel like a real ally in Jordan And I think that most of us would love to do that Even if some of us as you just articulated find it hard to envision. Hey, wait a minute We're all about feeding the commons, right? Why should we be making a profit here? Well the profit I think may think of it as making a living And the word profit gets a little colored in here because we tend to think of profit as profit maximization Where to profit from our work? Maybe has a slightly different sense to it. I'm thinking which means benefit and well-being Not absorption of all the value that's in the space Because if we can focus on creating the shared value and putting it in the world And still figuring out how to make a living So if somebody has a great idea like scott's mental models You know, how does scott make a living from this model that he's that he's crafted for a really long time? How does he make a living from it and how? Can we figure out to maximize the public availability of that tool? How does that thing live in the commons in some way and he still has a very comfortable living off it? That's I think a really really important and intriguing question for the future of the world because in my experience education for example is crippled because Books are really expensive and information seems to be locked inside of extremely expensive books Website edu tech websites for the moment you stop paying them their monthly fee whatever you've done goes away Seriously, all of this stuff is ridiculous. It's really ludicrous, but we take it for granted because profit motive But but but we're busy like kidnapping ideas from the public sphere Which need to be propagated elaborated appropriated adapted and reused and improved Sorry scott go ahead Oh, I thought you'd raise your hand. I did. I did. No, that's that's great. You don't have to apologize. Um so two things from that first one was um I find loren's idea really interesting about trying to the the thunderclap or the variation of that, you know um, my concern is that how many of us are ready for everyone to know about what we have because if what My my and then what question that I am always asking myself is okay, I'm going to tell somebody This is awesome. And the first thing you're going to say is okay. Cool. Send it to me and I'm going to say, uh Well, it's not it's not ready yet I can't like I don't actually have it to send So I get concerned about wanting to spread ideas that aren't necessarily Ready for prime time or maybe that's part of the spreading is this is somebody who's working on something really interesting And it'd be it'd be nice to work with them second thing is I I talked with a cornell professor this week about my program And his the number one thing that came out of it was he asked me are you making a uh of something that's fundamentally universal Or are you making an educational product? and I was like, oh It's kind of both It's kind of both. How do I reconcile this and what we ended up with Because I've been looking at card decks and I think card decks are really interesting And this will this will come home in a minute here based on what judy's judy's comment was So I've got all these like decks of cards. I went through my library I've got nine decks of cards from various companies And I'm like, you know what deck would be perfect and what we realized is that my structure Is the universal the high level The bits and pieces the 75 thinking skills Are the educational model and the framework that you build yourself And this is where it comes home to what jerry you were saying about judy The idea that what judy was saying is the idea that If you give someone a framework Locked loaded built It's not their framework And you have to work really really hard to teach them Like the whole thing say, okay, this is design thinking and here's all the steps and all the things that come with it The idea here is how simple can you make the structure? And then how flexible can you make the content? In order to so someone can say, oh, these are the parts that resonate with me And then they build it into your structure And and that's that's just something that has clicked into place for me and I think it kind of fits As we talk about how to take this to the world like judy is trying to do Is how do you make those those lego pieces that So judy you said something you you you had a conversation That was a lego piece that could potentially be used by someone else to say in a different situation. So I feel bad because i'm not going to respond to what scott said i'm going to work something else There's a lot on the table here, so during during this call i've i've had this little twinge Jerry every time you you you talk about commons And I think I might have figured it out kind of So without detracting from what you said I agree with what you said I wanted to take a different view at it and I think maybe it's because I have been Fortunate enough for the past 15 years or something like that to be working in the software software world where There is a rich and robust commons at this point So for me I think there's I the people I work with and and actually this happens all the time now in my life When i'm working with people and talking about let's build some software together um One of the first things is like and is it okay if we just dump? You know as much as we can into the into the open right because i'm i'm pulling from the commons I'm putting back for the commons. It's it's it's not even Um putting software back into the commons actually makes it better You know, it's not like you're giving up something and putting it, you know like oh, I guess I can't you know it Because every time somebody touches it they they're going to improve it in some way And then you can pull some of those improvements back into what you're doing It's not like the old chevrolet on bricks in your front yard. That's not yeah um, so so anyway for me commons is like an important really important background kind of consideration, but where I Where I feel like I Where I feel like we should Which is really just what I should feel like I guess but um, but I think the important thing So commons is like is like background cosmic radiation. It's it's like you've got to have it, right? But once you've kind of gotten to that point then you can go okay The important thing to think about is value exchange, right and instead of maximizing profit. It's like Um, and and I'm not trying to profit off of somebody else working with somebody else. What we're doing is exchanging value, you know Maybe and and then value the other thing that we we have Kind of for better for worse. We've we've constrained value down to like it's just how many dollars, right? And it's like actually the value is is very multivariate and you know and contextual and things like that the the different kinds of value streams that that two parties might entertain are you know Maybe it's completely bartering, you know, if I do this work, you'll do that work or And then, you know, we'll both benefit So kind of that mutual benefit of value and then thinking of value as many multiple streams You know, maybe it's that I get a basket of food on my porch, you know Each week or something like that and that's you know, something where we could shortcut money out of the equation And I'm still getting, you know value. That's super important to me Um, I think the the the other thing that capitalism has done Very efficiently is is move it It does this thing where it says value is only dollars and then it does another thing whereas like We're going to count certain things, but the rest of it is externalities that we push off to other You know other players in the in the world, right? So I'm going to pollute because it makes me money and I don't care that other people are dying because of it or sick and dying because of it so recognizing lots of different kinds of value recognizing that value happens in different ways between different parties and then Accounting for positive value and for negative value. I think all of that kind of value Uh, recognition value exchange. I feel like that's actually the important thing and The commons is almost a positive externality of people working together to do things smart smart ways that Benefit everybody rather than you know benefiting one one person sitting on a pile of gold I'm so happy you have twinges um Because you've just articulated and elaborated Things that I've been like floating in the fog on this at my periphery And I wasn't sort of paying enough attention to but you're totally right I mean it's the commons is a is a byproduct of healthy interactions And figuring out how the how the interactions interact Which can be articulated as exchanges of value or co-creation of value Maybe less than exchanges better is super important And I just put a video of Arthur Brock years ago talking about Bessie his favorite cow and the different layers of value in Bessie just to just to sort of play out what this the sort of kind of articulation of value kind of means and One of my big beefs with the kind of capitalism we're trapped in right now is that it contacts all these kinds of value into money And it monetizes everything it touches like ice nine uh in cat's cradle And in doing so it breaks a whole lot of systems And it undervalues a whole lot of things that are actually extremely valuable because they add to our well-being and add to the value That we can co-create so I'm completely on board with what you said B And would like it to be incorporated in some way In our working principles in our notions of how we do what we do together and all of that And I then need to figure out how to insert that in my script in my head About feeding the commons and what does this mean right? And and and the place that I usually use commons a lot as I say we used to know how to live in the community on the commons And and that dynamic the two circles I draw with my hand when I make that statement are the exchanges of value that you're talking about It's the dynamic between humans in community Doing stuff that's good for them and increasing their well-being While increasing the commons ability to hold them all and the critters that they depend on and all of that So so I think that the dynamic you're talking about is completely explicit in there And maybe I'm talking only about the nouns and not the verbs or you've got me sort of spinning on on some of those kinds of things Um, but thank you I just wonder if If we aren't closer to doing what we want to do then we think we are Because we have a body of practice this We have a sense of fair-mindedness all of these intrinsic things And I suspect all of us No other like organizations because we wouldn't participate with them if at the heart of them They didn't have some of that going And I'm thinking in particular that there's a lot of non-profits that have profit enterprise to fund the nonprofit That operate a lot more like what we're talking about than the traditional capitalistic structure And they're trying to continue to do their good works Of various types all of which feed the solutions. We're trying to see in the world And perhaps what we could share with them Would help them do it faster and get it out to more people If I can reply to that before passing the mic to scott real quick Because this opens up a bunch of super interesting conversations One of my amateur beliefs about political economy is that the reason we the reason america has so many damn nonprofits Is that the for-profits are busy screwing up so many things and trying to minimize government so much That we have a whole bunch of problems outstanding And that the nonprofit structure means that the leaders of those organizations are spending 75 of their time Fundraising not actually tackling the problem at hand and that that's a real dysfunction And that there's a whole bunch of other dysfunctions in this either for-profit or nonprofit model And part of the reason to create the for-benefit sector, which is this wee little wedge Tiny tiny little wedge like public benefit corporations b-corps There's a couple flavors of it But so far the number of companies that have jumped into this little middle sector is really small But the reason for that is to try to get away from the need to profit maximize You know share stakeholder shareholder primacy Or the dysfunctions of The whole nonprofit world of which there are plenty and I think that we all might have stories on that front And the reason then to create steward ownership where you have a nonprofit that owns the shares in a for-profit Is to do is to be able to move elegantly between those extremes Depending on the task at hand and the kind of organization Always while stewarding the commons and while increasing the well-being of the flows of value in the network So I think I think we're trying to tackle all of those things quite explicitly In the larger kind of meta model of where this thing is rolling if that makes sense Scott so this is This is a naive question and sometimes those are the best um, so You have you have a tribe they're exchanging value in a multivariate way 100 percent peat Lots of different ways to exchange value I have a huge fan of barter and all that sort of stuff then To work with the other village You you I think you it ultimately gets converted into money and we all hate that but that's That's kind of even within those little groups. It all gets Has to be converted at some point and so That's the part where to me and my naive view of this It all breaks down because if you and I are exchanging money or not money value All day long you made my thing better. I made your thing better. That's awesome Neither one of us has anything to eat Because we've we've made this thing better, but we haven't exchanged it for the value I can't take that down to the grocery store. I can't use that to pay my mortgage And so how do we take that exchange in value? Which is absolutely essential and and real And turn it into Or are they separate? Are they just separate things and you do your job? See you learn we do your job I look like you're waving Okay Yeah, how do you take your all this exchange and turn it into something that you or do you just I'm sorry Do you have your job where you just work and you find a way to keep things going and then you have this other Separate economy if you will so Lauren and then Pete and then me um Well, if we were doing things that actually like helped us in the real world, which is what I'm trying to get to then there that wouldn't Be a point Scott so that's where where I'm trying to Get people to do stuff for each other that will help them getting any kind of Employment or money coming in whatever that looks like to them Whatever they want to do work most easily do so we just have some kind of revenue coming in And I think that there's something to do if we're going to have a federation I think that we need to start experimenting um with micro currencies um like michael linton said uh, he had a really great way of Having just a board where you can post Your currency and you can have little groups of five Who have their own currency and there can just be like Flux or some nonsensical things that makes it much easier for groups to be like we like that other group will accept their currency because we like them and then they can just each group can have a list of currencies that Can accept and then that builds you can start up with little trust networks that can grow bigger And then they coagulate into brands that you trust like oh, you know, if they're with that Thing then I you know, I I I will accept that so it can grow You know and the sooner we can start experimenting because it will start with a disastrous project there'll be lots of Holes in it, but if we can just experimenting, you know, modeling three groups of five people Then that would be great because we'll just like start failing early and I'll learn how to actually do it I don't know Pete and then then when I'm done we should probably wrap the call because we'll be at our 90 minutes, right? Yeah So it's a good question scott and and lauren hit a lot of it that that I was going to say michael linton Is the kind of the the big thinker in this space? um so and lauren I think Said it well the kind of what you need to do is start federating currency Federating money. So money is a reasonable valuable value stream too. And then it doesn't always have to be in dollars It can be in flukes or you know credits or whatever um but the more basically like At if you zoom out, there's this dollar economy and the barter economy or something like that and you know You you can't see you can't see a bridge another place where you know, it's hard to see a bridge If you start dissolving both sides, you end up with a place where You're federating different kinds of currency and moving exchange for kinds of value from one one kind of Value network to another kind of value network Another way to think of it is there's the village and the other village who barter, you know Barter internally but don't barter across it's like well Actually inside each of those villages. There are people who barter with each other and people who don't but If you kind of expand the Expand the federation of bartering to include both villages There's going to be value exchange that the villages can do themselves, right? so I don't know this is it's it's been a A dream and you know Longing for a long long time for lots of people and it's a hard problem but it's also Just something that we start digging into and and start increasing circles of of things where you do value and teaching people that There's more kinds of value than just down to dollars and and just keep working on it Go ahead scott. You're muted though. Yeah one one quick question. So is it I mean for again simple me Is that like okay? So you have cash and you have credit cards Okay, or and this this or or even a gift card this gift card is only good for this tribe And you exchange value that way and the cash cash goes anywhere. I mean is that kind of a kind kind of yeah, but then then you might Talk to somebody else. Hey, I need something from that tribe and I only have a gift card for this tribe and somebody in the middle would say Dude, I'll take that gift card and give you a gift card to the other one and I'll I'll take 10 percent, you know, so I would love to do appreciation at the end. I want to also throw 10 things on the table for their great question You ask scott I grew up partly in argentina. So I've always cared about argentina And they've had a shit show economically. They're always on a roller coaster It's terrible right now. It was it was bad at the end of when I lived there all kinds of crap things My question at one point the question dawned on my head What did your average argentine do to deserve having all their country's assets sold out? Being in a world of hyperinflation having all their retirement accounts liquidated. Basically money got worthless in argentina And it was because they were all under fiat currency and because they were tightly coupled to everything else that their relative value dropped They had nothing left to go on so a whole bunch of you know alternative currencies show up in those environments as a buffer as a safety buffer It's a little bit like we have we have we've made turned money into a monocrop And that's a problem more than a more than a great solution That the benefit of it is hey, you can go around the world and you can take a green back and buy anything The danger of it is that when assholes decided to do the global financial crisis in 2009 like What allowed people to sell insurance against cdo's and call them cds's and allow multiple people to buy insurance against an asset They didn't own and then just lather in repeat that should have been criminal There should have been people in jail and there weren't and everybody almost lost a lot of money because of that crap Right. So so how do you insulate yourself from that? You create local value currencies which now are hard to use because of the conversation we just had And and that's just sort of at the money layer and then barter folds in david graver's book debt talks about how The myth of economics is that we invented money because barter got ungainly He says there is no evidence of that any place on earth anthropologically Money started as as a payment for intangibles or incommensurables. He calls it Like a bride price or a slave Those were where we started using money and then money sort of and then we end up with Of the world we have today where money is sort of everything But then in a world where we're virtual and the pandemic has driven us all into zoom and into our and online Who cares about the next village might as well be your village So so the physical boundaries of exchange have suddenly plummeted And we're busy offering ourselves free videos and and that you get into this whole conversation about the exchange of value on social Media where they're busy mining your data, which is an exchange of value behind your back Happening by people who are trying to manipulate you in your in your use of money, etc So that's a whole conversation And i'm really interested in how might we live really really well with no money being exchanged And weirdly we may be moving toward a world like that Although the money thing may sort of just happen in the background because All of this may turn into universal basic income legislation in several countries They're floating it in this country andry yang ran on that as his platform in the last electoral cycle Did not win but but everybody's looking around going crap if things are really bad We may have to give people some minimum level of income so that they have shelter and food And once you've got shelter and food Then apps have basically dissolved everything else You want to you want to have a lamborghini for the afternoon I have an app for that and you don't need to be able to afford to have the credit rating to get it A lamborghini Right so access to the things you would normally have bought with money Has now been disintermediated and you can kind of get through the sharing economy once we get to share again Assuming vaccines and we exit the pandemic that comes back So all of that is kind of happening at the same time as We're moving into an economy where so many things are available at zero cost like i don't pay google anything For using the google suites and all you know all the other kinds of things my phone just lit up because i thought i was um It's busy transcribing what i'm saying now Because i mentioned this name But but there's like this zero marginal cost economy that that germy riftkin writes about which is happening in the background as well So between the disappearance of work and all that we're we're going to see in the next 10 to 20 years Gigantic changes in the economy that will heighten our need For understanding all these other flows of value and living without money necessarily and all of that so all of these things are kind of happening right now and i think i missed a couple um, but the idea of Fostering and starting to understand these flows of value, which is what arthur brach and the meta currency team have been doing for 25 years Um, is i think really essential. I think this is like super important work for where we're headed And it did leave like three minutes for appreciations Real quick j is I i wonder if scott you read books. Maybe you don't i i don't anymore I collect books, but i don't read them you're muted scott um But but anyway, jerry i wonder if debt The the graver book is the thing to read About that or it's i think it's pretty approachable or watch a video about it I mean the thing i do a bunch on the too long reading list is i figure out if they gave a ted talk or whatever They pretty much had to crystallize the message of their book or if somebody's done There's a tremendous number of historians and other kinds of people online that are doing a series of videos about interesting issues Very often they've done something on polanyi or popper or whatever and you can just you know Observe that but the david graver's book debt is really worth worth doing the dive So to understand why we have money Yeah, um, and don't don't read neil ferguson's book money. I hate ferguson I mean there's a whole bunch of people trying to figure out what the heck money is And there's very different stories about money Really different stories about money and you you know your mileage may vary here Um, i'm still reading books. I've still got like six books open at any one time. Go ahead scott This is uh david graver debt Yes, the first thank you. Okay. Got it. Thanks. We just passed away too young Graver's awesome. Yeah, I went I went to see him speak once in san francisco and I was like sitting behind Yeah, he died recently, but the room was so packed that I was sitting behind the column I had an obstructive view on the floor The room was packed Um, okay, shall we pause for a moment and and I just I before you said that lauren I just wanted to say that I love you guys But thank you for being like wise. Yeah, likewise. Thank you. And by the way, pete Come in speak is commons keep spent hours and hours helping me Appreciation bites. I could never even even the The simple thing we done it would be so hard for me to do it without him so He's responsible happy to happy to do it And so we don't we don't know exactly what these appreciation bites will do But we think it will lead some place um helpful And give kind of like getting people into roles It may be other magical things will happen And when you say bites, I'm not sure I know what the unit of measure here is what the thing is Let's see. Um, did did you go to the link jay? Which link? I put a link in the chat And so it looks like oh the air table. No, I did not So we're just um it just allowing you So lauren when you first put this on elsewhere I went to it and I was not able to put in a person's name like that Flunked on me and I didn't have time to go say hey, this is working for me. So I stopped Oh, yeah, it's okay. Pete had to help me. This is a new improved version which Awesome might might work better might not I'm trying to find your link one. I know I So is that we're doing that live in these other windows, correct? Yes Yes, and you have to click you have to read if you want to do more than one you have to Re-copy and paste it. It's kind of annoying, but that's you know, so and and this is So I I did the tech back in for this. This is lauren's design and lauren's experiment. Um, so So it's it's a little a little bit rough But she's got an experiment. She's Her nose is following a scent and she thinks she's got a winner here And the list of the list of appreciations really is genius. Thank you lauren. It's beautiful That's my favorite part of the whole thing Well, and you know, I wish there was a select all but I know that's kind of feels kind of fake You know, it's Yeah Oh, and we can only Do one attribute at a time. I'm sorry. We're just going through for the first time. I thought you could select from multiple like scouts are saying Yeah, it's we we wanted that it was too complicated Mm-hmm So I haven't received them yet. Have you been filling them out because you have to choose the meeting for them to show up I haven't clicked submit yet because I'm still typing And then so it turns out bin sent looked at it yesterday And uh, he's super helpful too. He was like there was a way Uh with air table not everyone has to get into air table. I can I can just paste a link To it and if people can just you know then review them on their own Um, but I'm thinking in the circle appreciations what I want Because I think that there's something to them. I think they are very valuable Um, I want people to be able to I want to increase the professionalism and the contextual information in them so that people can look at their kind of own or other people's Um specific contextual things and then give very much more specific um appreciations like so and so is Always this way demonstrated by this situation where they did this and It may be instrumenting this idea too much But one thing that's really helpful in some settings is having testimonials from other people And so the gratitude bites are are small and they're formatted But even just are you inspired to write a paragraph that this person that that this person would have permission to use On their website on their you know on the internet's proposal wherever that could be super super helpful because then it builds a bank of testimonials for people Yes, exactly and I'm trying to Um encourage this behavior for even up for us to do small little things like that Um for us to like you know fill out the stupid testimonials on linkedin Maybe they're not that important But if you had 30 of them it would show something and it's uh taking steps for other people and finding out what other people are doing and Promoting each other's projects Oh, you're muted. Sorry. Is there a way once we've submitted this particular Form to go back to do it again instead of yes to the blank you have to go on the link again I know what i'm saying is is there a way does air table give you a way in the forms to to link back to the form At the end we could yeah Maybe I don't know if you get to customize the end the end you can customize that that end page Cool, what do you want it to put for the meeting we're in Okay And then when you're done, I'll I'll run the cards and send you a link Or and there was a blank row on uh meetings which made it show up like an error. It said error in the Yeah, I deleted that All right. Cool. I I deleted it. I fixed it Oh, thank you Okay, should it is everyone done? I've only done one but I need to do more but I'm I will do one one is a good start Cool. Yeah, one is cool. Okay, I will show you So here we go. Thanks so much for humoring me everyone Um, how do we add options to the appreciation categories? Uh, you can't but you can't suggest there's a thing to fill out you can suggest if there's Something that you feel is missing Um, you can suggest it. Um, I would I don't see where to put just just send laura message Okay, but can I say it out loud? Yeah Builds builds shared assets or whatever like that because I'm I'm trying to offer Pete some some appreciation And he's always building things that we can use So I don't see where that fits in these Um Added in because these are really attributes. Um You can think about that but that's uh, really? I mean this is as as as important as comes up with brilliant ideas or demonstrates curiosity Like yeah makes makes stuff that that is useful to to the group So you should take that down as a note learn and then get back to jerry with what you thought about it And and whether or not you put it in and so that's a feature request Okay Or an you could also put a field at the end that says is there not you know Is there an attribute we're missing which you know feature but then that creates traffic for you incoming for for fielding those But I don't see in the categories you have how to how to Appreciate somebody for actual like labor of coding and Stuff that we're using Something different. This is um, basically collecting attributes Um, and not what people are doing. How is that not an attribute? I guess it would be um Uh like helpful like some kind of in the attribute of helpful Because it's not what are it's like the attributes and not what uh the work that they have done Okay Maybe you should add another another attribute is potential and If you get what if you get what you measure and we want people to contribute more solutions to the pie Don't we want to have that as an attribute? Some like Yeah, I just uh, I would just phrase it differently like um, yeah I'm trying to figure out how to phrase it so that it fits inside of the framing you have for what these attributes should be Right, right All right, I will do a few more on my own. Shall we wrap the call now or do we want to continue this conversation? Um, somebody should share that did everybody get to look at the cards or Yeah, can you share screen on the results? Oh, yeah, sure. I did also send there's an air table Link that I just sent and it has uh, it's a link to all the cards You can just read them When you say you sent the link are you talking about? There's another link in the chat the one that starts with an eight Instead of that and I read it I had a question though about the thursday after ogm call Is that going to continue in the same or a different room or what's the thought there? Um, the thursday call so the instinct is All the one the one about the Lion's fin. Oh lions uh, lionsberg is going to be in a different in a different zoom So we're going to switch out it will definitely not be in the the other zoom because otherwise We're going to have people just hang out into the call so we'll switch zooms and we'll send that announcement out and Jordan is having a group called ofc do the facilitation. So that's gonna sort of be be there. So so you'll get it out to us. Yes Perfect. I just want to get it on the calendar. So I don't screw up. Cool. Thank you I think it's a fascinating area to explore Awesome. Thank you. I will go do more and read more Hi Thank you. Bye for now. Hey everybody. Yeah, exactly be careful out there. Take care Bye We're the hangers the last to leave, huh Scott? I can't do what we did last time. I can't either But have a good day. Yeah you as well. Um, I've I've just a quick update. I've made I've continued to make progress I found a 30 year old Who appeared from my past? Uh, he was a he was someone I coached in hockey And he found me and said I found you, you know, and he was super excited about it. So we connected and Apparently I had a huge influence on him that I had no idea None That's cool Yeah, and so affirmations are just jewels, aren't they? Oh, yeah. Yeah, and So he's he's an incredibly thoughtful Well, I I say kid. He's 30 years old um but Anyway, we we've just We've connected because we kind of think we enjoy that we enjoy these kinds of conversations, right and anyway, so I've been showing him my my program my model because He's far enough away from me that I'm not There's no pressure You know and we're aligned enough that he's interested in it and he's he's just encouraging. So I've been able to make progress on it, which I think is is really great and I'm excited about this idea of there's this universal structure of thoughts Placeholders projects Games and stories, you know, basically thinking saving making playing and You know living or meaning something like that And then you build your own deck using the card the other cards and and I have them organized But that doesn't limit you from I think that's a great improvement around so you're making really good progress. So I'm happy for you I'm excited about it. Um, so I'm looking forward to sharing that with you and your daughter Okay, that would be great. Have a wonderful day. You too. Thank you. Bye. Bye