 So welcome tonight, we're sort of, this is the third program in our more than a month SFPLs version of Black History Month, which is, you know, American History Month. We are doing all the way to January and February. So stick around. We have a lot more events, but this is a really exciting one. We are so excited to have this panel tonight. We are interviewing authors SA Cosby, Kelly Garrett, Gar Anthony Haywood, and Cheryl a head, and they're going to be discussing the history of black writers and crime fiction and the future of black writers in the genre. We acknowledge the mini Rami Tushaloni tribal groups as the rightful stewards on the lands of which we reside and work here in the Bay Area, and we are committed to hosting programs providing information and book lists. That's what we do. So those are also in that document. Check out our YouTube. This video will be on YouTube after the event, but we have a lot of, we've partnered with a lot of great indigenous groups and we have lots of great videos and a lot of the programs all year round. We also want to acknowledge the painful and violent situation our country remains in and acknowledge that we're all even here tonight in this, you know, these times it's just I thank you all for being here for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's take our minds off things for a nice hour and forget about that. But do know that San Francisco public library stands in solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement and against police brutality and violence and killing. And we are working in our own institution to end our systemic racism and institutional racism, not just in the library but in our community as a whole. So you can check out our go on. If you just Google SFPL racial equity, you will find our updated racial equity work that we're doing also lots of links in that document that I sent. And here we go with a quick slideshow super quick, and we're going to get on with tonight. We are celebrating the 16th one city one book this is where everyone in the city reads the same book. We're going to be celebrating Chanel Miller for her book know my name, a very powerful book about her sexual assault on the Stanford campus and her dealings with the court system. She's an amazing author and an amazing artist so that's happening in March. I hope I am monthly read at the library again, where we try to get all of our community to read the same book. So January and February selection is old drift by Namawali Serpel. Very good, very. It's also got a little thread of science fiction. So check it out. Tonight we'd like you to support and buy your books local, pick up all of our fine authors books nights from Borderland books, do or voted the best mystery and sci fi books, or you can support Marcus books nations oldest black owned independent bookstore that was really quick. So we love bookstores hashtag we love bookstores shop local support these people do not let our bookstores go out of business, your library will be here. We won't be a city without our bookstores. So please spend your money there. Lots of things coming up Saturday evening is 6pm we don't do too many of these evening events so come out and celebrate and show why we should. We're going to be celebrating the life of Miguel Algarine poet, and it's going to be fun. Like I said this is a celebration of more than a month black history and heritage. So take a look at our website. I put a link in that document for all of the events for more than a month coming up and we have a lot. We're going to be celebrating the 26, Diane for Lottie and Eric Pearson will be telling us stories. And it's going to be great because she's going to do a version for adults, so come check it out. And I am now going to turn it over to Cheryl head, who is going to moderate tonight's panel. Cheryl was originally from Detroit now lives on Capitol Hill in Washington DC, where she has navigated successful career as writer, television filmmaker broadcast executive and media funder herself published a new novel novel, Long Way Home, a World War two novel was a 2015 next generation indie book award finalist, and both African American litter and historical fiction categories. Her award winning Charlie Mack Motown mystery series is set in Detroit, featuring a black lesbian private investigator. When not writing head consults on a wide range of diversity issues. And Cheryl did one of our new social media hooked on a book so did Kelly so check those both out and we'll put those in the link. I, let's give a big round of virtual applause for a panel tonight. Thank you everybody. Cheryl. Thank you in this. Thanks so much for the San Francisco Public Library for having us to do this panel I'm really psyched about being with these luminaries guard as I want me to call him a luminary. Let me introduce them real quickly you've seen their long bios you know their award winning and celebrated authors. Let me let me tell you a little bit about them so Gar Anthony Haywood is a three times shameless award winner and Anthony award winning author. He's written 12 crime novels and numerous short stories in the crime genre. His work includes the Aaron gunner private eye series and Joe and daddy louder milk mysteries. This new novel, which I've read is really interesting I've departure for him. And I hope he'll talk about it before we make our exit tonight. Sean s a Cosby is an Anthony award winner. Last year he had a blockbuster of a novel that was prominently placed on most of the best of 2020 mystery and crime lists. And in case you've only been watching hgTV for the last six months, it's called black top wasteland. Sean is a writer with southern roots and he's already in the proverbial cat bird seat with his new book razor blade tears which comes out in July, and has already been picked up for film adaptation. Author Kelly Garrett is a true influencer in the mystery crime community. Her novel yes you are Hollywood house. Right back in the bio. I decided to send my famous mega bro black actress and won the Anthony award the Agatha award the lefty award and the best first novel. Welcome to detected by day series Hollywood ending was featured on the today shows best summer reads the 2019 and was nominated for both Anthony and lefty awards and Kelly serves on the national board of sisters in crime, and as a co founder of crime writers of color, and we'll talk a little bit bit more about crime writers of color before we end today so I'm going to jump right in it this is like a black history month thing so what I like about it is, it's starting in January, and we're going to try to extend it in March because we only need more than 28 or 29 days. So this panel is called black crime writers celebrating the past and looking forward to the future. I'd like to ask each of you to spend a minute or two on a black author of the past that you admire and tell our viewers. What's special about that author and they're, they're writing what's unique and valuable about about them. Let's start with you Kelly. My pick was Valerie Wilson Wesley. She was part of the way that was around with Gar and Walter Barber nearly in the late 80s early 90s. Her first book was a black woman PI series. It was a novel in 1994 when death come stealing, and it was, it takes takes place in New Jersey, and so that was around the time I was a teenager and I lived in New Jersey. And so just to see a black woman in a mystery because I love mysteries, I love them so much, and then also to recognize the places like oh I recognize 280 and I recognize the town's it was such an influence on me. Valerie's a big influence on a lot of authors, especially black women, crime writers, I know Tracy Clark says the same thing. And so she took some time off you know I think part of it might be just publishing isn't always kinds of black authors when it comes to keeping them published and was doing paranormal and romance but she's coming back at with the new series that comes out. I think this month maybe next week it's a cozy paranormal series. I think it's what is called glimmer of death so she's been such a big influence so she was an easy choice for me. Excellent. Well, what a great choice. She has one of the best first lines and any mystery now the love of her read on a paraphrase it because I don't have it in front of me but it's something like, all I wanted to do was going by a fish sandwich. Oh yeah, I remember that one. I wonder if it's this one I should book. Next on this question garb who is your pick for black author that you really want this audience to know about and admire what's valuable about about their work in their books. I'll give you my answer in a minute but one thing I wanted to ask Kelly because I think this is kind of a vital question is Kelly how did you discover value like how did she come to your attention when you first found a book. I think the author is a huge reader. And so she was reading so many people like Sue grafted and Sarah Peretzky and Walter and so, and she would just give me free reign on her book, her bookshelf so any book I wanted to read even if it was Jackie Collins, I could read it. And so that's how I found Valerie, you know and then I would go to the bookstore she dropped me at the bookstore at the Barnes and Noble by my house and I would just like peruse the shelves and be able to buy one so that's how I found her. That's great. Good question garb. Your pick and then tell me how you found your pick. Sure. Sure. Chester Himes was my first introduction to to African American crime fiction of the day so to speak. And you know I'm a black, I'm a, I'm a child of the black exploitation film era and so a lot of the books and authors that I ended up reading voraciously, I initially found through a film, one film or another. So in the case of Chester Himes, the movie cotton comes to Harlem. I started to Godfrey Cambridge and Rainier St. Jacques. You know I saw that movie and I was completely blown away by it. And anytime I find out that film is based on a book. And I really like the film then I, you know, I find that book I dig it up and so that's what I did in this case and that's how I discovered Chester Himes. And I read a few of his books after that. And I was really amazed by his story. And because of the era that essentially he was writing in. And what he was getting away with, frankly, you know he was using some racy language some racist situations. And he was very tongue in cheek, anybody that's read his work knows that there's a lot of humor and what he writes, making as much fun about of black people as a white folks opportunity, satirist so to speak. And I really love that about his work. It's timeless in that sense. Excellent. I like Chester Himes too. Who doesn't remember maybe Kelly she's too young, seeing that movie in the theater. I am I'm too young. I'm going to go to Sean next and then I'll name my pick. But I'll tell you real quick cotton cotton cotton comes to Harlem has a legendary place in my personal history, because cotton comes hard on in his original run was my mom and dad's first date. You want to see that movie. And that's how they, they, they were their first date so like we just become a it's become a part of our personal, personal mythology. My mom didn't like it either so that's pretty funny. I know right crime right she does not like crime right but I was telling me too many curse words in your book. But my personal choice was Dom goins. That was my first introduction to a black crime writer I read a lot of different mystery novels I've been a voracious reader since I was seven or eight years old and my mom read biographies and my grandma read romance novels and my uncle on my dad's dad read mystery novels and so one day, my mom and dad separated got back together separated many times. And during one of their separations, my dad and my uncle were babysitting me they had me riding around with them as they did some errands and we ended up back in my grandma's house. And I saw the book on the table and it was a book called fiend by Donald going. And I asked him I said what is this. He's all you two young to read that my dad said well let him have it and keep him quiet while we fix they were fixing something at my at my grandma's house. And so I read it is that day and then I found I searched out everything I could my library didn't have done the ones books. So I had to go to like thrift stores and your sales to pick up, you know, kenyatta's revenge and, and all his other books and the thing that struck me about Donald was his just unrelenting honesty, his books are brutal and raw and they're sort of a precursor to exportation films, but there's just a certain level of no BS with him that really struck a chord with me that really influenced me later as a writer it made me always want to tell the truth in my books. That's excellent. And I should have told you that you know I'm a moderator but Kelly is insisted I also be a slash panelists so I'm going to jump in every once in a while so on this question I want to say that my pick is a person called Nikki Baker that's her pen name, Jennifer Dow dell, who was the first person to become an African American protagonist in a lesbian lesbian mystery series. And this was back in the 90s her first book was out in 1991. And I was reading you know lesbian mysteries I wasn't out. So I did not be reading these books that got delivered to the House and Brown paper packages and stuff so people wouldn't know what they are and, you know, and I finally was able to go into a bookstore and find a book written by an African American lesbian that had a black woman on the cover I saw the cover this is 1991 I went. That's a black woman on the cover, and it was a mystery. It was queer, and it was African American. So for me it was like a literary trifecta for a young black woman in Detroit to see herself in the pages of this book, and to imagine that was me on the cover her books have been out of print for about 30 years. She wrote three books and then kind of dropped out of sight, but a company called re queered tales is re issuing her books started last year, re issuing re issuing the three books you wrote, and they asked me to write the forward for the third book long advise, which I was honored to do and it'll be out in March. Amazing. Let me interrupt. Yeah, that that writes a forward to a book is a luminary just I think we're going to say Illuminati. You got to email to that helps the switch on the on the question this is January named after the Roman got Janice who looks forward and looks back so let's let's look at the current and forward situation who are one or two or three current black crime fiction writers that you want to give a shout out to that should be on the to be read pile of anybody watching this zoom meeting. Oh, my turn first. Okay. I'm at a clock. I mean anybody that's not reading at a clock is missing out on essentially, you know, I hope she doesn't find this objectionable but to me she's the female Walter Moseley I mean he's just a brilliant writer, use of language and situations and locations are very she just is just really, really smart, smart writer I love everything that she does. Yeah, and then I like you know my boy Gary Phillips. I like the stuff because he varies himself research, you know a lot of his stuff is historical, and nobody writes a historical crime fiction novel based on black people in the black situation is better than. Then gee, I think Gary folks is another. Excellent, excellent. Sean, let's go to you. A couple ones that stand out to me. One is someone who hasn't been published yet, but it's a great new writer named Yasme McClinton she won the bland award, and I was very honored and privileged to read her a novel that she's working on that should be hopefully will be out soon. She has got just an incredible mastery of language. She writes about the African American and the African experience with something I haven't seen before in a really good crime novel. And so I just can't wait for more people to get a hold of her work because I think she's going to be, she's going to be a superstar at she's going to get into the stratosphere that her writing is is amazing. Another person that really stands out to me as a part of our current crop of folks, and I'm stealing your answer a little bit. Cheryl is a general on john verger and Chris chambers are two guys that are writing very interesting crime novels contemporary crime novels that are deconstructing certain ideas about blackness and class in a way that I think is pretty unique so those are two folks that I hope somebody folks will will reach out and search out. John, no, I don't mind killing here. So my, I had so many talented people coming out right now I feel like we're in a little renaissance, but my choice is Rachel how's the hall and I'm not saying that because she's here. But Rachel, I feel like her first, she's been published for the past two decades consistently consistently she her Lou Norton series came out in 2014 which is about a black woman, police officer in LA, which is where she's from and she just really captures Los Angeles great. And I know that guard things that Attica lock is the female Walter mostly I think Rachel is. I will fight I will fight you are but not saying Attica is not talented but I think Rachel, especially with Los Angeles. You know she has a Los Angeles connection, and she's just able to write such a wide variety of things because she has the police procedure series she has this one which is domestic suspense. And her new one that was that last year which is getting all the buzz was just nominated for a lefty along with Sean. And now she's gone and I would have that up but my give it to my aunt to read, you know, and she has a new another series coming out with Thomas and Mercer this year and she's just so talented can write anything. And I kind of hate her because she writes so well. It's like I don't like. She's like really nice to hard but I still hate her. And so I just think I think she's amazing and so I think you like you should definitely add her to your TBR list. So all her books, a lot of them. So I'm not going to follow the rules I'm just gonna name a bunch of people real quick. I have other people to but name some. I want to mention the other person who's nominated for a lefty award along with Sean and Rachel that's Tracy Clark. Tracy is my girl and Cass Rains is my girl to her phenomenal main character who I think is comparable to Sue Grafton's Kinsey Millhorn and I've told Tracy this many times so she won't be surprised at that. I also want to shout out to Delia Pitts, her Shelby, Shelby J. Rook, protagonist I love. Abby Van Diver who writes the Romaine Wilder Mysteries, Frankie Bailey who we stand on her shoulders a lot of us Lizzie Stewart Mysteries. You want to shout out some more people. As someone who writes traditional lightweight amateur detective novels I should shout out my fellow cozies, Valerie Burns, Vian Burns has three series, Alexia Gordon has a paranormal series. Abby also has under Abby Collette has another series as well that she's doing with Berkeley. So, also Patricia Sargent, Olivia Matthews she also has two cozy series so it's been a lot it took a long time for a lot of black women to get to not to basically break into cozies but now that we're here we are representing so. Yeah. Yeah. If I could jump in here just one quick second. Sean mentioned the bland award. You know that's named after Eleanor Taylor. Yeah. This conversation is not complete. If we did not pay tribute to Eleanor, I knew her very very well. She died way way too young. Absolutely. And Kelly, I hope you take this in a way that it's intended. You know, it occurred to me literally a minute ago that you essentially are the, the next Eleanor Taylor bland in the sense that very talented writer, but utterly committed to promoting the work of people color, you know, in the business and you guys could be twins essentially because this was a woman that just gave her all 110% to see that writers of color got their due. I just wanted to make sure that, you know, she gets some kind of credit because we wouldn't be here on this call probably be one for Eleanor Taylor. I know where I might be jumping ahead but when I first met Walter, and we were talking about primaries of color and starting it he said the same pretty much the same thing that Gar said which is that Eleanor was the glue that held everyone together. Unfortunately, she passed away. Unfortunately, it kind of, it wasn't as this wasn't the same basically, you know, and so I've never met her I've read her I enjoy her work. So but she sounds like an amazing person I'm so happy that sisters in crime has the Eleanor Taylor bland grant that they do for an emerging writer of color every year. Absolutely. And of course, you know we're saying Walter every once in a while, Walter Mosley just got to say the name first name basis. And the other person. Give a shout out to the to the late Barbara Neely, you know, the Blanche books. When I found the Blanche books I was going like, Oh my God, open these to buy these books and do you know, you know, So let's, let's talk about publishing industry and the current infatuation with diversity and inclusion. I'm going to ask you to go through quickly and ask you this and then we'll talk about it. Do you believe the current focus on diversity and inclusion in crime or fiction but in fiction in general is a trend, a fad, or paradigm shift. Tracy, I mean Tracy, you're not on this one. Kelly. I'll take Tracy. So I think, you know, I, I, I gar, I mean we didn't really say this but gar was, I think, like the first in 1988 with his Aaron Gunner to kind of kick things off and then Walter came two years after him. We have to give Gar even though I don't want to give Gar credit for anything we have to give Gar credit for that. You know, you're welcome it's the only couple you'll ever get. The check is in the mail. Thank you. Um, you know, and during that time after Gar and Walter we had Barbara we had Eleanor we had Valerie we had all these amazing authors. And then, like, you know, in the 2000s they all a lot of them are gone you know and they weren't publishing for a variety of reasons I think Barbara kind of stopped on her own and Val was saying it was hard to get published. And then it's kind of been a resurgence the past couple years you know when I came out in 2017 there weren't a lot of black mystery authors being published you know, Rachel was being published and Alexia was a year before me. And of course obviously Gar and Walter and Gary. You know and so now I they're finally embracing it and I think I said this when I went my Anthony I was like we have to make sure it's not a trend, you know because I'm not a trend none of us are trends my life is not a trend. You know, but I do think that the younger generation you know millennials and Generation Z they expect a diversity that even as me as a generation X or boomers don't necessarily expect, you know so I'm really hoping that this means that it's not a trend and it is a paradigm shift you know and, and I think the key though is that we have to sell you know people have to buy the books, because it is a business, you know so I really encourage everyone if you really enjoy a book especially by a author of color period especially a black author mysteries. So tell your friends about the master library to buy them you know to make sure that we are we are a trend. So that's going to really help the class to thank you. Gar what do you think the current trend of focusing on diversity and inclusion and publishing fat trend or period action. Well, as, as Kelly points out you know I have a unique perspective on this question because I've been around forever and I'm as old as dirt. I've seen trans this this trend quote unquote come and go, you know, number of times. And what I will say about it is that it is cyclical obviously, you know this up and down with the, the embracements, so to speak of publishers with artists of color. I think what Walter and I discovered very early on is that what happens is, somebody blows up. Let's use Walter as an example. And what that means to other publishing houses is, we got to have our Walter. And so they'll find one writer that they'll promote, you know, all the hell, but they think that's it you know okay we've done our duty and we signed up our one. Author of color, and now we can, we can let it go right. Right now, trust me their house is looking for their Sean Cosby. And once they find him or her, they'll pretty much be done. Okay, until they see, you know, and, and God help that author, if that author doesn't blow up like Sean did. That's essentially how I've seen it work. They don't, they don't treat us with the same level of respect as they do writers that are white. They just don't you know they think that there's a specific market for us. That market is only so big, and only so many certain types of people read them read us and serve kind of types of people will never touch us. And because of that, they need one or two authors of color on their list and that's as far as it goes. So that's a very long winded way of answering the question Cheryl, that in my opinion. It's definitely not a paradigm shift. We haven't seen that yet. I, I wait for that day for sure because that'll mean that the doors open for everybody. You know, in the day may come that a publisher has 15 to 20 authors of color on their list because those people deserve a slot. Thank you guys a thoughtful response and I appreciate your candor on that. I think it is a trend that is building toward a paradigm shift and what I mean is to Gar's point. You know, when I was growing up, the only writers of color that I knew that were being printed published I should say we're Gar and Walter and Barbara, and I Kelly said it sort of became. I would say evaporated but it kind of it lessened over the years. There was this niche market for a long time a street lit so you guys like Omar Tyree Kwame that were selling, but they were, they were perceived as only being able to sell a certain number of books. You know, you will see them in a Target or a Walmart and publishers that were publishing them didn't really get behind them, you know, you never saw them on the day show or the best of list. But people read those books. There's a lady out of Richmond, Virginia, where I'm from, named Nikki Turner, who hustled her way into a publishing contract, because she self published and sold books out of the back of her car, up and down, you know, at 64 and 95. And so I think publishing, to Kelly's point, the millennials the generation behind are behind us now, they expect diverse they expect a multitude of voices. And I think there's a shift coming, but it's glacial. It's a plate tectonic shift, because the publishing houses are moving very very slow on that. And there's a reason that, you know, a book like where the crawdash sings, which is sort of modern retelling of the, the classic white savior Southern Gothic, it was the no more in book of 2019. And then books like, you know, the vanishing half, or, or books like, you know, Hollywood homicide are perceived as being Oh, that's nice. The publishing house don't seem to want to get behind it. And so when those books succeed as to Garcy, it looks like, oh, well let's get our magical Negro in here, and we'll have our one magical Negro writer and that'll fill our quota. And so, you know, the true paradigm shift will be the day when we don't have to ask this question. Right. So it's kind of interesting. So obviously this past summer black lives matter was such a huge, a huge thing. And it was, it was, so of course, a lot of people are embracing, I gotta read, I gotta read black people now, I gotta read it usually it's just February now it's like I gotta read it now because unfortunately someone died. It shouldn't be it shouldn't be that that so much and have to die for you to want to read people of color to be black, you know, and so a lot of publishers I will say I was seeing so many deals from people like six figure deals that they were getting for debut black authors for mystery authors and things like that but the thing I'm curious about is these books aren't coming out to 2022 probably, you know, and it's going to be a different time then so I'm curious if they're going to still be as passionate about it and I call it I call it white writer money and like people, all my like black women mystery writers know I always say it's white writer I want to like white writer money. And so I'll find next deal, you know, and so that we're getting white writer money now but the question is, will we get white writer promotion and marketing in 2022. So that's going to be the curious thing I'm going to see what's going to happen and hopefully we do. Let me ask this question see who wants to take it what is there one or two things the publishing houses the publishing industry might do that would make a difference now that would solidify the popularity of some of the books we're seeing Sean's and Rachel's and Tracy's and others should that that they could do to prove that they're in this for the long time that they got some skin in the game around diversity and inclusion. They should be able to give us room to breathe. I don't think the thing about being a black writer is that you, you only get one strike. You know, you can be a white writer and your next three books, you know can sell in the middle range or middling or not have really great sales and you will still get another contract with writers of color with female with women writers, women writers of color or what have you, you don't get that one to strike is one strike and then it's like oh we don't have any we don't see you as a Bible. Oh we tried. We tried. Yeah, exactly. And so we need to have that room to breathe, not room to fail, but room to rise a marketing way, you know, and have second and third chances the way everybody else does, you know, and I think that's the thing that will show that publishing is behind, not just diversity but multicultural and behind writers who are not straight white men. Right. I also think that, and you know, you guys may disagree with me but I also think it's kind of problematic to create these specialty imprints, you know, in a house for, you know, authors of color books of color, because I think that's in a way that's a way of ghettoizing, you know, the authors that are on there on their slate. You know, if my book or Sean's book or Kelly's book, if it's good enough to, you know, to be published by a given house, you know, don't give us, you know, this sideline imprint to publish under, you know, does that make sense or am I overreacting? What do you think? No, I agree. No, no, I think that to a certain extent, you should be a part of the main line of the publishing house. I am very, I know it, I know this, because I'm just an Ashley Knuckle Boy from the Virginia Hills. I'm very lucky to be in the main, like, Flatiron catalog. You know, and I think people would look at the book differently if there was a, you know, moonshine press that published Black Southern writers, you know, or so I think to guard point, I think there is validity in that. Well, the point that you're making is essentially in mind and that is that you are exactly where your book belongs. You are mainstream crime novels. People might want to create some subcategory for you and for me and for Kelly, like the fact of the matter is, you're crime novels. Okay. And you belong in the main house, in the big house, so to speak, as opposed to out in the shack somewhere on the field, you know. That's, that's like when bookstores will have just like that they'll have the black section of the books they put they don't put the book the black books in both sections I'll put it just in the black section. That means that people have to go and find the black section to read black books and not everyone does that. So, I mean the good thing about this past year because of Black Lives Matter, people were seeking out black material movies and books and that kind of thing. I think we got a little more play people have time to do it they're stuck at home with COVID. They're thinking about how to be an anti racist so I think they were reading our stuff, you know. Right after like that week I was like let me check my sales and they were not as big as I thought they were going to be based on all the people claiming they were going to read my book and I was like okay. But it seems to me there's a kind of a parallel issue it's it's the publishers not paying attention to what's going on in the world I mean we live in a diverse world people want to see themselves they want to read about themselves. Our stories have value and that interest to the broader world, and it's on the other end we've got a set of readers who might be afraid to try the where who might be afraid they only go into Walmart so they're never going to go into another store. How do we how do we get to those, those people how do we convince readers that they need to at least try our, try our work. It's so funny Alexia Gordon said this one's and it's so true she's like if you how could they always think oh I can't connect I can't connect with a person of color, but it's like you can connect with an alien. Like a vampire you know people that things that don't exist so how can you connect with those, like Harry Potter you can connect with those witches and the vampires and all you know like whatever that twilight but you can't connect with people like actual real people that's, I think that's that mindset that's American American mindset to unfortunately. That's interesting because we're expected to connect with a white protagonist regardless, no matter what it is. Nobody ever. We never can say, well I can't really connect with Chad and Iowa I don't understand his cultural milieu. You know, it's so we're just expected to take that as the default and I think to make people. I think people have to be willing to open their minds to it. I mean I've got a lot of emails from people who read black tie wasteland, and they think they're paying me a compliment when they say, I didn't even think he was black. Well you missed the whole damn point of the book, what the hell. Anyway, that's a personal issue. Yeah, but I want to come back to that I think it's a big issue but let me ask you a couple individual questions let me start with you Sean. I've heard you talk about more being more about the local more about the character than the location. You're writing about rural south, you're making it work your characters fabulous. Your writing is fabulous. Talk to me a little bit more about what your goal is in writing about the rural south. Well, first of all thank you for that compliment I appreciate it. I'll be sending you a PayPal payment before the end of the night. But for me, but for me when I write about the, I think there's this idea among a lot of people not just readers but I think the general society at large, that the rule south is the sole provenance of you know white Neo Confederate When we talk about the south the first thing that people talk about or they think about is a quote unquote redneck or a quote unquote hillbilly or what have you. And you know, my family goes back six generations in the south. Every scrap of land that somebody walks across waving a Confederate flay people that look like me have bled and work and died on it and I'll be damned. If I will let that be the sole provenance of people who don't respect me as a person. And so I wanted, I think this is idea that people have about blacks in the south that either we don't exist. Now we're just window dressing, or there were somehow these submissive subservient, you know, brave new world soma drinking folks that just, you know, take whatever is handed to us because we're in the south and so I yearn and I want to write about the full breath and with of those characters and I use crime and crime fiction because it's to me the universal language that you can talk about everybody hurts. Everybody knows pain. Everybody knows desperation, you know, when people talk about crime fiction as a genre. Yes, a genre, but it's also can be literature. I mean, you know, do it just is crime and punishment is great literature and it's about a crime. It's about a murder. And so for me, I want to explore and introduce people and educate people about the black rule experience at the same time. Talking about class talking about toxic masculinity talking about the pain of poverty. And so those are the things that I aim to do, you know, I always said this before but you know a dark alley in the city is scary but to me there's no more terrifying place on earth than a country road with no lights. And you see headlights coming up behind you. So that's that's sort of my ethos when I try to write. I'm with you on that much of that deliverance violent that get our things starts happening to me when I'm in the dark country road. I like it. Kelly, we kind of asked your individual question already that I that I told you about earlier so I want to ask you this. What I love about your writing is, you know, Dana Anderson is, she is irreverent she's funny she's quick with it she's observant. She's you know she's a scaredy cat but she's fearless on her own way to talk to me about how you use humor really to attract audiences and to get them with you and you know that there are a lot of white readers who love your stuff. I think I think I think black people in general we use humor, you know, it's better to laugh than to cry, you know, you know, and I even with this, the whole the past couple weeks and everything that's been going on, you know, there's still people making jokes and things like that to help, you know, it kind of softens the situation, you know, and so for me, I wanted to write a beach reeks I don't think I think with black people were expected to write issue books where it's about so hard to be black, it's just so hard, you know, and, and that those books are great but I feel like white people can write you know, funny books and issue books and good books and bad books and we don't get that opportunity, you know, so I really did want to do a book that was a story that had humor in it. That was, that was the goal, you know, and to kind of and also I am doing Hollywood which is when I worked in it, you know, and kind of having a very irreverent look at that and again it's better to laugh and to cry with that so So I'm looking at our time I'm I don't know how much time we'll have for audience q&a because I have some more questions for you guys but the guard talk to me about your ability to write across series and across genre it's obviously something that you enjoy. What are you just testing your metal when you do that or you just don't want to be boxed into any one thing. Oh, you you answered the question yourself. No, seriously, I mean it's both of those things is like you as an author you don't want to be boxed in you know you don't want to, you know, you don't want to be known for this one thing that you do really really well. And you can't do anything else. And the other thing is as an author you kind of want to like stretch and see you know what you can do what you can't. That sort of thing so um and I can't speak for the rest of the people on the panel but you know I write the book I want to read. And I like to read a lot of different things and so when I read a book that's like really really funny. I think to myself, you know, I think I would like to do that I think that's that's where the Joe and daddy lot of milk books. What I think from was my need to to lighten up a little bit and write something just for fun, you know, yeah, yeah, but versatility is is is a really big thing and Kelly you gave Rachel her props for that. I think that it's a, it, it's a valuable asset to have if you can prove to the readers out there that you can do more than one thing. So I want to ask this question about our kind of current situation you know we're, we talked about a little bit but we're in the era of cove it where you know right now in Washington DC, the whole city is tense and nervous because of what we saw last week. White supremacy, just front and center insurrection is front and center you've written about it, Gar and your first book you talked about white supremacist so it's been around a long, a long time. So here's the question. Given our times, the times we're in the issues we have. What would your protagonist do. Come on, what would bug montage be doing at the Capitol if he was at the Capitol. Right now he was in on the six he would probably keep his ass inside, but he would probably be. I thought about this because I thought about writing a short story. He would be thinking a way to leverage this into a he's using, you know, using the situation is advantage. So, you know, and maybe he drive for a ice crew that's you know, got a whole truckload of mask or PPE or something like that. I didn't expect that answer. What would Aaron Gunner do Gar. I think, very much like me he just be, you know, need deep and sadness, you are broken. You know, and he's not, he's never on the front lines of activism. You know that's just not who that guy is but I think that, you know, I think there's a certain amount of resentment that would boil up in him. I think we're all angry, to be honest with you know, we, we play it off and we talk about, you know, the things that are funny about it but it's not really very funny. And I think Aaron would be bent out of shape, frankly, you know, and I don't know that he'd do anything to get himself put in jail but I wouldn't rule it out. And Kelly, what would the Dana Anderson do. I think, I think black women in general we tend to have a tendency when it's go time we are focused and we handle our business. Yes. And then once business is handled that's when we are we break we allow ourselves to break down and and have tears you know so I think right now she'd be doing what she needs to do to take things you know and I thought about that, like, because I cried like four times today over just different things with the Biden inauguration. Yeah, and I realize it's because I felt I have never like when Trump won I didn't cry. You know I haven't cried for four years and I was like, okay, what's going on right now is now that we're free and clear of the situation. And I can be vulnerable because it's taking you know it's I've been strong and I think for black women that's what we do we're strong, we're super strong because we have to be. And then once everything's taken care of everyone is taking care of to because we take care of everybody. That's when we're by ourselves and we're vulnerable. Well, that's great. And here's why I want to take liberty as an author to talk about what Charlie Mack would do. But, you know, I, Charlie's big on tolerance. She comes from parents who wants a high school principal the others are an attorney so I think she would be thinking about what makes these people tick what or what, why would these people feel this surge of unbridled and unreasonable anger that they would do the kind of crazy thing they're doing and try to, I don't know if she would be trying to reach it kind of a reach across the aisle but I think her initial response would be anger. I doubt if she cry. But I think after that she be going like, let's I want to talk to one of the guys. Maybe I can change their mind. Maybe I can understand how the hell we got here, because we can't move forward in this country with the kind of division that we have right now. That's that's what I think Charlie would be doing. So let me switch us back to the viability of black crime writing. It seems to me that, especially last year. There was a lot of Hollywood interest in black culture to, you know, we love Lovecraft County was on pretty little lives and you know it's just a time even do verne's doing her thing. Do you think that kind of focus from Hollywood from television helps black crime writers helps the the overall literature around black writing. Do you think that makes a difference when that when black television shows and black Hollywood and black panther and the box office is doing well for those kind of shows. It helps sell more books written by black authors. Well, I'll take I'll take that first and I mean the short answer is it can't hurt. It absolutely hurt. You know and again like, like the story I told before, you know, one of the ways I discovered Chester Himes was by seeing that film so. And there are a lot of people that are writing for television specifically that are also writing, you know, for long form fiction. And, you know, I'm sure they'll find some readers strictly from their television work so it can't possibly hurt Cheryl I mean that's one of the beauties of where we are where television is concerned is that, you know, with all the new channels that we have the all the streaming channels that are creating original content. No more people color on television now, then I ever saw the first 20 years of my life so I mean that is not a bad thing and it can't help but create a new generation of readers of fiction. I mean, Sean, do you have any you have a take on this. No, I think like to Garth, I think I agree with Garth it can't hurt. I think you know, the more you show black faces in all types of situations not just, you know, like Kelly said not just a downtrodden, holding up the bloodstained banner of suffering that you see, you know, a film like Queen and Slim you see a film like Black Panther you see a Netflix series like a Lupin Lupin that's all you know when you see the multiplicity of black faces and it can only help you write again only help your your your fiction I think, you know, you know, like, I think movie studios streaming network services are like Garth said are hungry for content. And just by the sheer fact that they need a lot of content to fill their coffers, they have to go outside their stereotypical traditional sources of inspiration so you're going to see, you know, really, I think strong content featuring black people featuring LGBTQ people featuring, you know, people of, you know, color of all shades and hues and so I think it can only help I mean if somebody goes to see Queen and Slim. Yeah, or they go to see or they watch widows, and then they want to pick up an Aaron Gunner book or or a Hollywood homicide book that can only help. Right, right. Got two more questions for you and it's 953 so I'm going to ask them fast. What's the best part of being a black crime fiction writer Kelly Garrett. I think being able to tell our stories to be able to, you know, I have so many black women in my life like my mom, my mother, my grandmother to my niece who's six you know and be able to put that on paper and representation matters and I want to make sure that my niece and that generation has doesn't like me right I like our right remember being like in her age and not seeing black people. You know, on TV, or only seeing them in essence and magazines, you know, and so just kind of be able to hopefully kind of have representation that will you know impact other for further generations I guess. Thank you. Gar, you take that that question what's the best part of being a black crime fiction writer. Well, you get to me Kelly. I mean, I was going to say me. You get on a first name basis with Sean, you know, everybody else has to call them say I get to call Sean. You know, on a serious note, it just, you know, I get I get to tell my story. You know, that's essentially every time I start out I'm telling my story one form or another. And, you know, hopefully I find an audience for it and people, you know, appreciate it but being a black crime writer is, I'm writing the book I want to read, you know, and Sean ain't writing it Kelly ain't writing it so I have to write it. Thank you Sean SE. I think just to echo what everybody else said is the ability to tell stories that matter to me. I think also the camaraderie. When Kelly reached out to me to be a member of crime writers of color, you know, I finally felt like I had somebody to have my bag, the whole group, because I've done a lot of live readings back in the before where I was the only black person in the whole bar and in the water the bar, or I was the only black person doing a live reading and it feels really lonely. And so to read to reach out and have a network of writers who understand what it's like to get that email where somebody says, Oh this is really good. We just don't know what to do with it. You know, there's a certain shorthand that you develop when you have friends and colleagues who understand what that means. That's excellent. I want to, before we take a couple questions from the audience, ask you what's coming up next for you Sean let's let's go back right back to you. Oh shoot. I have a book coming out in July called razor blade tears real quick the elevator pitch is by two fathers one black one white both ex cons who seek revenge for their murdered gay sons and also while seeking revenge. They try to find redemption for their homophobia and prejudice they had while they were raising their boys. Nice. Kelly, what's coming up. I have my elevator pitch but I have to read it because I don't know. So right now I wanted to kind of go into domestic suspense which I don't think is enough people of color in it. And so my work in progress is like a very Megan Miranda Lori Rader day. She has her own voices of the black woman it's based in New York, and she's looking to the overdose death of her one time reality star who's down within blocks of where she lives and that we start reality stars actually her younger sister who she hasn't talked to in two years. So, in fact coming out. It's the work in progress. Okay. What for you you just put out a book last month. Interesting. Tell us about that one. It's called in things unseen and it's essentially my take on. I don't, I had to say to call it Christian fiction because that's too specific, but it's, it's a book that deals with faith. It's about a real real time miracle, an actual miracle God given miracle. And how only four people in the world know it it's current. And so that's, that's what that book is about. I'm very proud of it. When the world is open again. Do you have appearances coming up up book appearances or virtual you have something coming up next Friday, Kelly that sounds really interesting. I'm doing a panel with nano and sisters and crime and so it took six years for Hollywood homicide to go from an idea to being published. Including being on sub for a year and being rejected by everybody before midnight ink finally took a chance on me. So we're only talking about that and kind of my journey and my agent Michelle Richter from fuse will be there in my editor who was at midnight So we'll all be discussing kind of using my book to discuss publishing. So, that's excellent. It's Friday. You got my like Twitter account, Kelly Cal KEL why E KLL you can I always like tweet about it so you can find it information there. Excellent. I'll be there. From Allison Gates. Are there any recommendations for graphic books crime fiction reads by black authors like graphic novel. I mean, I'm like Gary writes those right Gary Phillips. Yeah, Gary, Gary writes right. Check out Gary Phillips. Allison. Sean, who do you want to play bugs. But I've been asked this question a lot. I have two people that I would love to see. I can see both of them doing really good job. Do you have a comment on David Washington or certainly Gabriel. Yeah, both of those would be good. Gar you and Kelly, both have a common experience in that you have written for television series before that experience make you a better crime writer, or, or not. I think so I think it helped me with pacing. I think it helped me with plot twist. I think it helped me with making sure every chapter ends on the kind of a climactic note to make people want to keep reading. And also developing characters and especially I write a series is my first books were, you know, and kind of having those characters that you can kind of be with for more than one book. Yeah. What about your car. I think that it teaches television right it teaches you how to get in and get out, you know, be spare us, you know, no word wasted, etc, etc. So, and that's that's helped my fiction immensely. I think so. Yes, same. Excellent. It's 10 o'clock. I think we're going to not take questions unless you guys want to go over time. It's, I mean it's 10 o'clock. I mean, I don't mind if there's other questions. I'm still awake. Okay, okay. Let me see somebody to the questions. Let's see. And this needs some help from you. There's one question from YouTube, which is how has your method of research changed since the pandemic, or has it. Who wants to start with that. Research. I hate doing research. That's why I make up channels. I'm lazy. I'm lazy as hell. I'm the laziest right in the world. I have my writers like Kelly who has like this long big white board and complex outlines and there's an algorithm. I don't do any of that. I really should because I would save myself so much trouble on the back end when I got to do edits. But I'm just, I'm lazy. They used to say that about me at school too, you know. The pandemic. The only thing it changed was I used to do a lot of like stuff at the library just because I was old school. So now I'm just doing stuff on Google. Okay, what about for your action scenes and your your car chase scenes or some of those moves I was going, I was trying to put, can you do that. That's 180 degree turn. How do you come up with that you don't research that I researched it because I grew up around cars. One of my close cousins knowing with us, he was a car mechanic, but he also did like legal and illegal drag racing. And so I knew a little bit about that, just in just for my own life. But I also I'm a huge car nut. So I've kind of had a lifetime of researching that and I used to have a, I used to have a 71 Chevelle that my mom made me get rid of. I built it with the high school, and I got three speeding tickets in the same day. Well, you needed to three day. You probably can't even drive your license by suspended. I couldn't drive for a year. I could legally drive. I mean, I still do a lot of research online basically, you know, I mean, I live in New Jersey, and I would commute to the city so I was really good at eavesdropping on people so I can't do that anymore. But yeah, it's still online. It's not different. So has Hollywood changed a lot since you've been away from it. Do you have to look up things about that was the hard thing about the second book. So the first book I was actually still in LA and it was really easy to like name drops, like, you know, places and, you know, like streets. And then second book I had to look a lot of stuff up on Google Maps I had to ask friends because places were closed that I loved you know so it was definitely hard so the new series actually set in New York. So I can I don't have to worry about trying to figure out things. And Gar, what's your, your research product process. I'm like Sean, I just lie. No, really, you know, one of the one of the tricks of the trade is to lie real, you know, in a way that's believable. You know, so I do research as necessary, generally online. You know, but then, you know, if I can find a way to fake something that it doesn't, you know, read that way. That's what I'm going to do for sure. You have to have done some research on firearms. You're very specific when you're describing weapons. Yeah, but you know the reality is, you could probably get away with a lot less than I use but yeah, I mean, I like I said I do as much as I think I need to to sound, you know, like I know what I'm writing about. And using Sean as an example, you know, he obviously knows cars, you know, I wouldn't have picked a duster for both car myself but, you know, working out well for him though, his mistake work out. So the duster, the duster, the duster had like three options when it was first mass produced, and my dad had one and he got the four barrel six slant six option. So those cars get updated. So that's why that that's where they came from. Everybody else uses Chevelle's and then Paula's and stuff. So I was like, I'm gonna throw a duster in there. I'm like, I just think it. I look forward to seeing your new work faked or not. Gar, I hope you have great success with your really a departure for you, your new book but it's so well written and really thoughtful and you think about it days after you finish reading it. Thank you. And Kelly really looking forward for your next you're going to do another series in the in the day series to in addition to this one. I am asking for your publisher. I'm my publisher clothes in 2018. They have to be resurrected. They have to pay me. This has been a lovely conversation. Thank you for allowing me. You're an amazing, amazing moderator. You know, you best selling award-winning authors. I'm just hoping all this, all of it rubs off on me through the zoom lens. Good night to everybody. Thanks for all the people who came and asked questions and I hope you will buy the books of our panelists and by the books of the people we mentioned. We really have a wealth of talent in the crime writing community, not only our black crime writers, but our writers of color. And just to send us off, Kelly, will you give us two minutes on the crime writers of color group. Sure, crime writers of color was started by myself, Walter Moseley and Gigi Pondian, I think two years ago. And we all kind of came together because we were saying earlier we wanted a safe space for people writers of color, crime writers of color to, you know, get together and network and to talk about the unique experiences that come with being us because we aren't always appreciated by publishing like we should be. You know, and so it started off, I think we all invited people we knew like, you know, Walter was like, I'll invite Gar and Gary and I invited Sean and I invited Tracy and I invited all my friends, Rachel and you and Gigi invited her people, she knew, you know, so now we have over 250 members, I think, and they're from all, all, all areas of their career with people like Walter and Gar and Sean and you and people who are writing their first crime novel or looking for an agent, you know, and we're so great because it's such a positive group. You know, we celebrate every success we have a good news thread that happens every month and it's literally I think by hundreds of comments because people share their news and people all chime in about how great it is. You know, and I'm just so happy with the group I think it has exceeded all of our expectations when it comes to me Walter and Gigi, and just of what's happening with it, you know, and hopefully we can kind of you know take it to further steps and you know have conferences and, you know, and things for people to so, so I'm excited for it. Yeah, thank you for your leadership and together and keeping it together. John, good luck. Gar, good success. Kelly Thank you so much. Anissa I'm throwing it back to you at the San Francisco. Thank you so much. We really appreciate that our community, lots of love in the river of chat. And yes, buy books and request books we will buy any book you want from our library. And that link right there that I just put in again. We tried to keep up with you with all of those authors so but I think we did pretty well between Lisa and I. You can find those there you can find their books on those links, and I'll send you a reminder tomorrow too so don't worry. And thank you. Kelly Cheryl Gar. Thank you. Thank you and Lisa for for doing this and for having us you know, thank you really appreciate that much I was such a so much fun. So fun. All right friends, let's have a good night everybody stay safe. We miss you we love you. Good night.