 Welcome back. Thank you for staying with us. If you are just joining your own time for the first conversation of the day after the great banter that we had with my co-host. So today we are going to talk about something that is close to the heart of youths and this is on matters employment. So how can we create sustainable employment, not just in type of employment, sustainable employment and wealth for the youth. And for this we are joined by Anthony Kierori, head of the NJG team. He is the CEO of Green Pencils Ltd, Green Pencils Ltd is the company and he is here to tell us the 1 to 3's on how to do this. We need to know how we can get a sustainable employment as youth and get to wealth because that is the goal for most people, at least if not everyone. Yeah, Karim Wussana, glad to have you with us. Thank you very much Stephanie. I'm here to be here. Okay, and speaking of what you do before we get into the topic, Green Pencils Ltd, today is World Environment Day. Indeed it is, the World Day. Yeah, you'd be the right person to comment something in it. What about saving the environment? Basically what we say is, let me say, at Green Pencils what we do, we convert paper to wood to make pencils. Why? Two reasons. One, in Kenya you're not allowed to cut trees to make pencils. So all wood and pencils are imported. So when we are buying imported things, basically we're exporting our money and our jobs. Yet paper comes from wood. Yes, so why not convert paper to wood? So that's what you do. Second thing, this has to do with climate change and the environment, which is as today is the World Environment Day. When paper decomposes at the landfill site, it forms methane gas. Methane gas is 25 times more poisonous than carbon dioxide. So when you're fighting climate change, it makes sense, logical sense, to try to prevent paper from reaching the dam site. Especially when you consider that about 26% of waste in landfills all over the world comprises of paper and paper waste, paper and paper wood. So 26%, that's a quarter. And then it will form methane gas, which is 25 times more poisonous than carbon dioxide. So it makes sense to prevent paper from reaching the landfill sites. That's why we come in. Oh, amazing. Eco-friendly pencils, amazing. So now, getting into the topic of the day, I want you to take us back. The foundation of this is that last week, you went to present as a departmental committee. Financial national planning. Yes. And you are giving reasons why changes needs to be done to the finance bills to suit cannons. So maybe you can share with us this. Yes, very good. As we start, let me ask you something. People say the sky is there. The sky is the limit. Well, I, Antoni Kerori, say the sky is my playground. Welcome on board. Okay. Very good. Now, first let's mention, it's good to note that the someone who's going to cut, suppose the cut rules in favor of the petitioner, whoever's going to cut. What happens to the finance bill? Shut down. Yes. And then, I like working with facts and figures. To me, I think the way the finance bill is structured right now is not correct. And it needs to be changed. First, it's good to point that, apart from King Solomon, nobody else had as much wisdom. So even the president needs advisors. He needs to listen to other people. Now, whoever he's working with, if given that opinion, it's good to come up with a plan B. So that's what I presented, a plan B. Now, let's look at a few figures. In Kenya, first of all, Kenya is, our country is very blessed with resources. A few weeks ago, about a month ago, we were told that Kenya has got over 900 minerals. And we have a lot of natural resources. Kenya is really blessed with natural resources. However, if you Google or you check on the countries that have minimum resources or non-natural resources, you'll find Vatican City and Costa Rica as one and two. But in the least, you'll also find Japan, Singapore, Belgium, Switzerland, among others. If you go to any road in Kenya or any parking, most cars that are parked, they're from which country? They're from Japan. And most cars are from Japan. They don't have any natural resources. Now, what does Japan do? Because they know they don't have any natural resources, they come to a country like ours, Kenya, and then they buy our iron ore at $75 per ton. That's about 10,000 shillings per ton. So two tons, they spend 20,000. They'll get about 60% to 65% of steel from that. So two tons, they'll get between 1.2 to 1.3 tons of steel at 20,000 shillings. 20. They'll go and make at Yotara 4, which will come back here and we'll buy it at 5.5 million. Wow. Let me ask you, who's the brighter one there? Who's the smarter one there? Japan, of course. Who's the smarter one? Japan. What's the opposite of smart? Full. So who's... Well, you don't say it's large. But we know, right? Yeah, it makes a little sense. Yes. So what I told the Finance and National Planning Committee, since they are part of parliament, and parliament is what makes laws, they should make a law whereby as a country we should no longer export our natural resources, our raw materials, I mean our natural resources in the raw form. For example, like the iron ore, we shouldn't export it that way. Instead, build steel industries here. Let's start with simple things like spoons, but at the same time as you are doing that, let's keep an eye into the future. Do you know that in Britain, in the UK rather, come 2030, no matter how rich you are, you will not be able to buy a petrol or diesel car in the next seven years? Because they are going electric. Exactly. So now that we have the raw materials, this gives us a few options. One, we can either work directly with the engineers there. Two, we can work with Tesla. Three, Kenyans are very innovative. The government can come up with a challenge, with a program whereby if any engineer, anybody can design a car, can develop something that is either electric or uses other form, maybe water, hydrogen, whatever it is. As long as I know whatever I think about can be implemented, trust me, I mean we are not only bright enough that it's only a person that could have come from Kenya. We have great minds. Yes, we have great minds. That's one thing that we need to do and that will create a lot of wealth. And it's also sustainable. Let me ask you. These one million houses, we have been told they will create about 1.6 million jobs, right? So let's say this room we are in is the one millionth unit to be built. The last one. And the people who are building it finish it today. What happens to the 1.6 million people tomorrow? They become jobless again. Back to zero. Someone can say, we'll build another million houses. Okay fine, we'll build. But eventually we reach a place where we don't need to build anymore. No more houses can be built. They finished the very last unit that day. What happens the next day? Is that sustainable? No. It's not. I like working with facts and figures as I mentioned. And I've just talked about Japan and Kenya. Let's look at the figures. And it's important that we make wise decisions. Our GDP per capita in 2019, I'm choosing to work with 2019 the year before corona, was 1,970.11. GDP per capita for maybe a viewer who may not understand is all the money in the country, all the money made within the country, divided by the total population. So all the money made in Kenya, if it was to be divided by all Kenyans, every Kenyan would have received $1,970 for the year 2019. Divide that. Now we need to change that into Kenya shillings. So we multiply that by 130. And then we are paid on a monthly basis. So divide that by 12 months. That comes to about 21,000. Per month. Per month. Every Kenyan. Yes. Now let's say I'm a Kenyan. And I am a Kenyan. And where I am, God has blessed us with a lot of resources. So my lifestyle is 21,000 shillings. Now you are, I'm not a Japanese, but let's assume you are Japanese. Where you are standing, you are sowing your ground, zero resources. It's only helping just to keep you up. That's the only what the ground can do. Yes. It's just holding you. Nothing else. Yes. There is a common resource that we share. Brings. So yes, everyone has them. But you've used your brings in such a way. The GDP per capita for Japan in the year 2019 was 40,458. If you multiply that by 130 to combat Kenya shillings, divide that by 12. I think it comes to about 400,000. That's over 400,000. 400,000 per month for someone. So Stephanie, let me ask you. I have all the resources that I have. I'm leading a lifestyle of 21,000. You have zero resources, only brains. Only brains. You've structured the cells such that you're leading a lifestyle of about 400,000. How will you look at me? Like a fool. Like this is a fool, you know? You're not using your brains. You can laugh at me. In my face. Exactly. Because you can use your brains. So that's the situation. And maybe forgiven for this. I felt very embarrassed the other day when the Japanese Premier came here. So what do you think him and his delegations were feeling or thinking when they met the Kenyans and they saw us? I know. It doesn't make sense. So as I said, it's important we make sure we use facts and figures to make the wise decisions. Let me give you another practical example. I've talked about natural resources. Now let's go to the agricultural part of it. In 2021, Kenya, we were the sixth largest producer of avocado. I think we produced about 471,000 tons and the country earned 14.48 billion. That translates to 35 shillings per kilo. Okay. Yes. And unfortunately, the other day last week in the news, I saw farmers complaining that they're only getting 54 shillings for their coffee. And so they're uprooting the coffee. They've touched shillings per kilo. Per kilo. So they were complaining it's not enough to pay them. So they're uprooting the better plant avocados. But as we were growing up, we were told our coffee is the black gold. That was our black gold. And our coffee is unique. Is our avocado unique? No. It's not. But our coffee is unique. And now, in the 80s, we were doing over 130, 140,000 tons. In the year 2021, Kenya produced 43,308 tons and we made 33.08 billion. Note, avocado is 471,000 tons. Coffee 43,000. 43,000. Yes. So avocado, we produce more than 10 times the coffee. But coffee, out of the 43,300 and 8 tons, we made 33.08 billion. That translates to 764 shillings per kilo. So Stephanie, let me ask you. You're the Japanese, eh? You see me uprooting my black gold coffee, which is giving me 764 shillings per kilo. To buy 35 shillings per kilo. Doesn't make sense. Doesn't make sense at all, at all, at all. Wow. We've just been emotional and we're just, let's put it, as you said, we've just not been bright. So it's time we need to be, to change. Now, the effort the president is putting, the executive is putting on this housing issue. If they were to put that in coffee, things would change. As it is right now, our farmers, they normally get between 2 to 3 kilos per bush, per tree. As opposed to 30 kilos per tree. Now imagine if the president, if the government was to try to help the farmers, let's raise this 2 to 3 kilos, first let's, our first target, let it be 10 kilos. Then go to 15, 20. Do you know, first of all, they're about, they're over 800,000 small scale farmers. Small farmers, eh? They're over 800,000 of them. Imagine if government was to try to help them to raise the production from 2 to 3 kilos to 10 kilos. What will happen? This is about 3 to 5 times what is being produced. Let's just assume each farmer employs an extract to people. Not more, just 2. Yes, and then there are 800,000 of them. How much will that be? 2 times 800,000. 1.6 million jobs. Wow, we've gotten to the 1.6 million jobs that the houses are trying to create. Exactly. This is more sustainable. And then, apart from helping the farmers raise the production from 2 to 3 kilos to 10 kilos, and then 15 kilos to 20 kilos, that will mean more people are still being employed. Another thing the government needs to do, they need to set up a structure whereby the farmers are allowed to sell their coffee to anybody and everybody. This current system we have is what the British left us with. Whatever system we have is not working. Clearly. It's not working at all. And that's why our production has dropped from 130,000. Now we are doing 40. I'm sure this year it will even be less than that. Yet this is our black gold. At least our coffee, we are the kings. We can pride ourselves. Just like the way if we keep going the other day, we won the 1500, and we are happy, our coffee, we are second to none. But we are throwing it away because we are full of emotions. Let's be blunt. Bad decisions. Bad decisions. So we need to change. Stop making these bad decisions. And then, apart from that, let's say you're a government and I'm the farmer. Now, the government needs to collect taxes because they need to pay the debts and they need to run government. Instead of just quizzing every last coin from us, I believe the approach they should take is to first enrich us. True. See how to make us rich. Once we are rich, it's easier for us to pay taxes. Since I talked about the coffee example, let's continue with it. Right now, coffee harvester, they normally, when they go to pick the cherries, they normally use 20 kilo containers, the debest, and they normally pay the 100 shillings per 20 kilos. So that's about five shillings per kilo. Good harvester can harvest about five of them and we'll get 500 shillings. Now, our farmers, as I mentioned, they have been paid 54 shillings per kilo. Good quality coffee. If you go to the supermarket to buy good quality coffee, the premium coffee, it goes for about, the last time I checked it was 1,620 shillings for 100 grams. 400 grams. 100 grams. So a kilo, that's 16,200 shillings. Stephanie, you are planting coffee, you are paid 54 shillings per kilo, either broker or the person who's adding value to it. If I'm done who's adding value, I send some brokers to buy from you, you get 54 shillings, I go, I process it, I sell it at 16,200 per kilo and pay 54 shillings. Very unfair. Exactly. So, yes, and it's said that one of the greatest reasons why evil succeeds is when good people choose to do nothing. They keep quiet. Exactly. Now here, the good people should be our parliament because they don't want to make any laws. So they should make laws such that you as a farmer, at a minimum, at least earn 25% of the retail price of the coffee. True. So out of the 16,200, at least get 4,000 shillings. Exactly. That makes sense. Makes sense. Now, if you are getting 54 shillings, then I tell you, I need some of it stacks, 3% here, 2% there, another... You would definitely be overwhelmed by it, you wouldn't accept. Yes. But now you as a farmer, I as government, I structure the law such that now you are earning 4,000 shillings. It'll be easy for me to be happy. Then I come and I tell you, just pay me 25%, 1,000 shillings. That would be fine. Won't you be happy? Exactly. And you'll grow more. Exactly. And then if you grow more, you employ more people. You harvest more. I get more. Governments get more. So everyone's happy at the end of the day. Yes. And then, apart from, you know, as a farmer getting the 3,000 shillings, governments should structure the law such that even the pickers, the growers, the laborers, they should earn something from it. So instead of earning 5 shillings per kilo, let's say for the harvesters, at least let them earn 100 shillings per kilo. So a 20 kilo container, instead of earning 100 shillings, the person will earn 2,000 shillings. So if they get 5 debes, 5 containers, 2,000 times 5, 10,000. That's 10,000. That's good money. So now imagine you're earning first 500 shillings. Then government structures it such that now you're earning 10,000 shillings. Then they tell you, give us 25%, give us 2,500 as tax. Why not? It will be 7,500. Yeah. That would make sense. It makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So we are poor out of choice. Yes. It's by choice. It's by choice. Because we have all that we need. We have all that we need. All we need is just to make the right decisions the right way. I know government is pushing for this house in Levy and the finance bill the way it is. And maybe they sat down with the advisors and they thought that is what is best. But I'm sure if they listen to the people's heart, people are crying. People are not happy. And people have solutions like you do have solutions. Yes. So now that's what you say. Now go to plan B with Anthony Kierori. Okay. You have the plan B. Yeah. Let's look for the plan A, the finance bill as it is. So why don't you look for the plan B? Plan B. And then you look at what makes sense. Imagine if for instance, and this is just coffee. I'm only talking about it. We reached a place whereby we are, every bush is producing just 20 kilos or 15 to 20 kilos. From 2 to 3 kilos, if you reach 15 to 20 kilos, how many people will be employed? And then now you as a farmer, you allow to sell to anybody and everybody. Do you know why that is important? Yeah. Our coffee is the very best in the world. What will happen, the Americans, the Europeans, the Asians, the Australians and all the people who have taken coffee, they will come to Kenya to buy it from the farmer. Directly. Yeah, directly. So what happens first to what you are doing in the industry? We boost it. We already boosted it. Then when they come to buy, what happens to the price when the demand is high? It goes up. It goes up. No, more for us. More for us. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. It's a win-win. Yeah. However, when I was presenting to the committee, there's someone who said that the finance and national planning committee, these things might take about a year or two. What happens in a year and now? What can we do tomorrow? To the air. Yes. There's something called the preferential procurement master role. This is a list of 334 products that the government identified, the Kenyan government, it made a list of 334 products made in Kenya. Yes, this was on, I believe it was 8th of July 2020 during the time of Corona. And then the head of public service at the time directed all state and public agencies. That's basically government. They should exclusively procure, exclusively buy the 334 products. That is none of those products should be imported because their capacity has been exhausted. It's a beautiful idea, but we did not implement it. Or let me rephrase it, since I'm not in government, the government did not implement it. This is something they can implement, they're resuming when tomorrow. So by next week or this month of June, they can implement it. Why is it important? I have looked at that list. There are some companies that are, there are some products in that list that you find only being made by one SME manufacturer. What does that mean? If that company stops making whatever product it is, there's 100% importation of the same. Okay. Yes. Now if government was to support such an SME manufacturer, this small manufacturer will grow either into a medium-sized or a large corporate employing very many Kenyans. Many people. Yes. And every time, and then this tilts our balance of trade a bit more to our favor because we'll be now producing, the government will be using what is locally available and therefore, you see right now, our balance of trade is negative. We import more than we export. Export, okay. So even if we don't export, if we can manufacture locally, we're reducing on the importation. So that's good for us and it's also creating jobs for us. The government can implement the preferential procurement master role immediately. That's an immediate win. From July. That would be an immediate win. It's an immediate win. Another immediate win. I remember a few years ago, not so many, maybe two or three, I saw in the news, people complaining, these were senior people, senior politicians, that that time they were, should I say in the opposition or the end government, that the government was getting very expensive loans. Instead of going to citations that will give them one, two, three percent, they're going to citations that will give nine percent interest. And they alluded to something like a kickback. Now that whoever in government are in government, why don't they identify the very expensive loans? And then let's say it's two, three, four, five trillion, out of the eight, nine trillion debt that we have. And then get the same from institutions that can lend the same amount at lower interest rates. You know one percent from a trillion is a lot of money. I think that's ten billion saved. Yes. So if you get come from nine percent to maybe three percent, that's six percent, that's sixty billion. Sixty billion is a lot of money. How much was the expressway? I think around the same amount. Yeah. So you can help me expressways. Or at least many roads can be built in many other places. Just from getting just at a smaller rate. Just a smaller rate. There are very many things that can be done. Yes. So wow, this is very interesting. You know just looking at what we have internally and making the most out of it to increase, you know, a production, create employment. And eventually that will lead to wealth creation. Yes. I believe. We talk about wealth creation. What actually is wealth creation? What does someone get to a place where they're wealthy now? For you to be wealthy, you first need to be rich. And then the surplus becomes your wealth. Okay. Yes. Now government here wants, I'm going back to government because they are core. They are central in creating their wealth. The resources at the end of the day, who makes the decisions on how they'll be used? The government. It's government. So that's what I'm going back to government. So all I'm simply saying is we have all we need here. All that is required is the proper utilization. And then right now we are complaining. I mean look at the figures that I said. We are living a lifestyle of 21,000. With all the resources that we have. Last week, farmers were complaining. I saw in the news that they grew their coffee and now they've been paid 54 shillings. What is that? So they said we better approve to this. Coffee. Then in another clip I saw someone says another plunder of avocado is like another neighbor of mine did. Get profit. Of 35 shillings. So when you look at the bigger picture, it doesn't make sense. But central to this is government. So for us to be wealthy, first we need to be rich. For us to be rich, we need to make the right decisions. These right decisions need to be based on facts and figures. We need to make deliberate decisions based on facts and figures. And also we need to note nobody has a monopoly on wisdom. Nobody has a monopoly on intelligence. So we should not belate the government or hit them that they are making bad decisions. Of course the government, the president, he must have his own advisors. And they've done the best that they can. And the best that they can, we've seen it as the finance bill. And maybe when they are crafting it, it made a lot of sense to them. But... Common money. Common money. That's not for you. We too need different backgrounds. Things are different. We haven't been here but guys are the ground. A suffering. Now it's a shame that we are suffering. And we have so many resources. So many opportunities. But the way I've seen the government, it's thinking in terms of how much more do you have? How much more can I remove from your pocket? How much is in this pocket? How much is in your handbag? What have you left at home? How much? I'm coming, you know. And the KMS have really made memes out of it, especially the youth. And people are laughing about it but people are crying. People are really crying. So the government just needs to tilt, change a bit, make us rich. And then it's okay to tax us. Because we'll have... We'll have more than enough for you to take. We need also to be a bit careful for people. For instance, how much do we have so that I know whether I should continue? Well, my producer is yet to tell me that I think we have some minutes, a couple of minutes, maybe 20. Oh, good. The former governor of Makueni, he built the Makueni hospital. It costed I think $235 million. And it was a big, big, big hospital. There are 290 constituencies in the country. Do you have a calculator there? Let me get quick. So that Makueni hospital, it costed about $13 million. And it's a very, very big hospital with 200 bed capacity. There are 290 constituencies. $135 million, let's change it into billions is $0.135 over billion to make it easy. Okay. So $0.135 over billion $0.135 $0.135 times 290 constituencies. $290. That's $391.5. Billion. Okay, good. I want us to see how much a trillion is. So if you look at the things that government needs to provide, hospital is one of them, education, roads, and should we say water? Those are four core things, right? So that came, you said it came to how much? $391.5. $391.5. Let me save that figure for you. $391.5, then so every constituency can have such a hospital. Not county, every constituency can have such a hospital. Right? Okay. Then imagine if you were to build schools of the same amount. So just multiply that by 2. Times 2. Yes. $783 billion. That's $783 billion, yes. And then there are 290 constituencies. Let's say every constituency we invest a billion for water. Okay. So I multiply that. No, no, no, you add $290. Sorry. $290. So that's basically a trillion, yes? Yes, yes. And then let's say we put every constituency a billion for roads. $290. That'll be 1.36 1.36 trillion. So just slightly above a trillion. And we have all that. Covered. Every constituency will have a hospital like that one. 200 bed capacity. Every constituency will have schools. And you know building a hospital is more expensive than a school. Yeah. So it will basically be bigger schools. We'll have dams and piped water in every constituency. Mm-hmm. And then we'll have roads worth a billion in every constituency. That is just one, basically a billion. A trillion. How much is our debt? $9 trillion. What happened to that $8 trillion? How was it used? Because in our constituency, where it comes from, we don't even have a level 4 hospital. Mm-hmm. We have got very few kilometers of roads. Mm-hmm. Many places don't have piped water. So... Where did it go? And this is just $1 trillion. So what happened to that $8 trillion? Wow. That's a question. So one thing the government also needs to do is we are talking about creating wealth. Mm-hmm. The reason why I brought this up is because the Auditor General for the last few years it's like he or she has been playing musical chairs, you know. Dancing a lot. Dancing a lot. What has he or she been saying? Mm-hmm. That the government, or as a country, we lose at least 30% of our budget. A third of the budget is lost. Basically, it is stolen. So that means out of $3 trillion budget, about $1 trillion... is gone. So government also needs, as they're thinking of creating wealth, you see, there is enough in this country, I believe there is enough for everybody's need, but not enough for everybody's greed. Wow. I love that. Thank you. There is enough for everybody's need, but not enough for everybody's greed. Yes.