 In this episode, you'll learn which role you as a service design professional can play in the digital revolution and how to start your own podcast. Here are the guests of this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, I'm David. I'm Jacob. And this is the service design show, episode 145. Hi, my name is Marc van Dijn. And welcome to a brand new episode of the service design show. On this show, we explore what's beneath the surface of service design. What are the hidden things that make a difference between success and failure, all to help you design great services that have a positive impact on people, business and planet. Our guests in this episode are Jacob Magnell and David Griffith Jones, who recently started a podcast called Designing the Robot Revolution, which explores the intersection between technology and service design. So obviously, I had to invite these fellow service design podcasters on the show to learn why they started this and what their plans are moving forward. We ended up having a loose conversation that bounced between what it's like to create a podcast to robotics and industrial automation and anything in between, to be honest. This is one of those episodes that touches on topics that you don't necessarily get exposed to in your day-to-day work as a service design professional. And for me, these conversations are usually the most interesting ones as they offer the opportunity to get exposed to something that I don't know anything about and learn something new. So if you also enjoy conversations like this that help you to grow as a professional, make sure you subscribe to the channel and click that bell icon so you'll be notified when a new episode comes out. That's all for the intro and now it's time to jump into the conversation with David and Jacob. Welcome to the show, Jacob and David. Hi, Mark. Hi, Mark. Thank you. Hey, this isn't the first, but we haven't done many multiple guest episodes, so I'm really interested to see how this is going to work. And this is going to be a little bit different episode because we're your fellow podcasters, podcasters, podcasters. How do you call people who make a podcast? I guess podcasters. I guess podcasters. I don't know. But before we dive into that, I'm really excited to explore that topic. We always do a short introduction and maybe, Jacob, you would like to start, like, who are you and what do you do these days? So yeah, I'm a service designer. I work in Gothenburg. It's an industrial town in the west of Sweden. And I've been working with service design and recently we started doing a podcast together, me and David. So that takes up most of my spare time right now, but it's really fun. Gothenburg. I've been close, but haven't been there yet. I just hope that that will be an opportunity in the near future. Jacob, are you also in Gothenburg? David. Yeah. Exactly. I'm looking at the wrong screen in this case. Screen will be confusing. So yeah, I'm David. I'm from the UK originally and I've been in Gothenburg for six years. I work as an independent service designer, mainly in the industrial internet of things space. And Jacob and I, as mentioned, started a podcast called Designing the Robot Revolution, which we're looking forward to talking more about. Exactly. That's definitely something that we'll explore. But as you know, I hope that you've listened to some of the previous service design show episodes. We have a 60 second, well, in this case, a two minute rapid fire question round and we'll do it in sequence. So I'll ask you both the same question. And let's see what comes out. The first thing that pops to your mind. And I'll start with you, David, and then I'll switch to you, Jacob. David, what's always in your fridge? Oatly e-café. It's the oat milk specifically for coffee. And it's great. I've got the same one. Yeah, Swedish brand, the word. Yeah, Jacob, how about you? So lately, we've been having a lot of mozzarella in the fridge, just because it's really good. OK, yeah, why not? But let's talk about books. David, which book or books are you reading? I'm reading a couple of books at the moment. One called The Wisdom of Listening, which is edited by Mark Brady. It's a series of essays with people who have listening as a key part of their job. Really, really worth reading. And another one, more work related is Value Stream Mapping, which charts the history of value stream mapping and how it's used today. Well, add the links for sure. Thanks, Jacob, how about you? Yeah, right now I'm reading Notch. I'm catching up on that one. The Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein are the authors and have been meaning to read it. But now they released a final edition about their behavioral psychology book. So that's what I'm not. It's about behavioral psychology, right? Right. Yeah, exactly. Still my reading list for sure. Let's move on. David, what was your first job? My first job. Well, I mean, I worked in a restaurant while I was studying, but my first proper job was as a criminal defense lawyer. I always wanted to be a criminal defense lawyer growing up. I'd seen all the movies and brought into the dream of what it could be, fighting for truth and justice. And the reality was quite different. It was a very hierarchical, very traditional. And yeah, I quickly tried to move out and move into something a bit more innovative, but my first job, proper job, was a criminal defense lawyer. Awesome. Almost similar to to services and Jacob. What about you? So my first job was laying down rye ceiling in the roofs, like doing those, you know, with almost grass kind of roofs. But my first proper job, I would say, as a UX research consultant here in Gothenburg. Yeah, fair enough. David, what did you want to become as a kid? Well, I followed by my passion as a kid. I even from the age of like six or seven, I wanted to be a lawyer. I think it was largely influenced by the fact I come from a family of lawyers. So I didn't have much choice in the matter. And of my siblings, three of us did. So there was clearly some indoctrination going on there. And we're saying none of us work in it anymore. So clearly we were stayed in the wrong direction. Oh, you know, you explore that opportunity. Jacob. I've always been kind of a generalist. I think I wanted to be a musician for a long time. Up until I was in the position where that was where I was going to get my money from. And I wasn't so keen on it anymore. So we went back to school. All right. Final question. And let's keep it brief because we'll dive into that for sure. A bit more in a second. David, when did you first get in touch, got in touch with Service Design? I remember it really clearly. It was 2013, and it was a project in Australia with a telco and a guy who's been on your show, Damian Kernahan, introduced me to us, working with him. And it was a great introduction. I met some fab people and really caught the bug from them. Jacob, what about you? Yeah, it was quite late. I was working as a UX researcher in Gothenburg in the car industry. And my old teacher asked me if I wanted to interview for a job. This was 2018, I think. And I got the job and read a lot of books. And then I met David on that job and he kind of filled in the the gaps. But it was quite quite a similar job in terms of like the fiscal things you do as a UX researcher, but the purpose is different. So that was kind of a good, good pivot. OK, thank you. Now that we know a little bit more about your background, some what's in your fridge, but books you're reading, let's transition into the topic of today. And that is the podcast that you started, which is related to service design, the digital transformation, manufacturing. Now, I have to start with the most important question. What topics am I missing that you thought I need to start a podcast? You're not singing, I think, Mark, your podcast is great and avid listeners. Are you obvious? Yeah. Go for it, Jacob. Now, obviously, we've been listening to your podcast quite a lot. And I think when we started talking, and you need you have to correct me if I'm wrong, David, but when we started talking, we were looking at these different podcasts that are out there, mainly in the industrial space, actually. And then also service design, which obviously there aren't many podcasts about service design, but we felt like the industrial podcasts are so technical as to be kind of difficult to get into. It's a little bit. There's a. Entry level that is quite hard to get into. Yeah, I'd say so. I mean, there's some great podcasts out there and there's been so many more coming out in the last in the last few years. And we both listen to a lot of podcasts, but we find that some of the ones relating to the internet things can be really techy, engineering-y and quite impermeable, therefore for people to get into and understand. And then there's some awesome design podcasts as well. But we're looking to try and bridge that and attract both audiences. And I you're obviously doing a podcast. The service design show is both an audio version and some people watch the video. You're opted to only do the audio version. Are you afraid to get on video? No, it's actually a technical. It's it's it's about the format of the podcast itself. We edit the podcast quite heavily. Therefore, it's quite kind of complicated to make it video. So there's the trade off between those. I think we would have to do like a video special where we're less editing in order to do video. But as of now, it would be really difficult. All right, just joking. It's it's most people listen to the audio version of the podcast. Anyway, so let's let's unpack the topics that you sort of address in the podcast and let's start at the beginning. You already mentioned that some of the Internet of Things industrialized podcasts that are out are quite hard to get in. At which moment did you think, well, this is something that we would like to a space that we would like to fill in. How did you start? Because yeah, how did you start? I think what's happened for us both through through the pandemic is that audio and video have become more and more important in our work. So when we're telling stories from the research we've been doing, we'll be capturing things in video and audio snippets. And then with digital facilitation, the audio becomes far more powerful. So it's something we'd become switched on to in terms of our day to day work. And then Jacob, really, I mean, you're the audio geek, aren't you? You were the one who had all the kits and you're the editor as well. So yeah, for me, it was a question of us talking a lot like a lot about this stuff. Rarely we spoke about service design itself. It was more of a from the perspective of two service designers. What does this mean for us with digitalization and IoT or anything that you can imagine really? And one day we were talking and we casually mentioned podcasting as a thing. And I thought, well, we could just try and do that. So yeah, we turned on the microphones and then tried it. Yeah, that's usually the way it goes, recording interesting conversations. So could you give some examples of topics that you've maybe already addressed or hope to address in on your show? Yeah, I mean, we're experimenting with different formats. So we have three different types of format. The first is Jacob or I read an article and then come and unpack an article and discuss it and how it maybe applies in our day to day work. The second format is getting subject matter expert interviewers on. So we've just interviewed an innovation leader to see how they're working in this space. And we're interviewing an executive coach coming up to get the executive perspective on this. And then the third is more of the kind of fun conversational where we just Jacob and I switch on the mic and talk about things we've been doing. And we're interested to see which which is most gets the most traction. And in terms of topics, maybe you can share a little bit about that, Jacob. Yeah, we were talking now about industrial shipping and the automation of that as a thing. And it's just an example of where we how we we find these topics are mainly we are interested in something that is complicated to one or both of us. And then trying to unpack that. So automated shipping is something that David has been speaking about, that I'm really keen on doing. And it's kind of the the geek geek thing of the moment that we've. Yeah, basically anything that we're talking about that has the potential to be relevant for for the people that we believe listen to the podcast. We did. Yeah, sorry to interrupt you. But who do you think or who do you hope will listen to your stories? So I think it's it's for designers, so designers, service designers, organisational designers, UX designers working in digital transformation and innovation, but also for the professional profiles who we work with on a daily basis in that space. So product managers, business developers, IT architects, different types of engineers who are maybe curious about design. So we really want to appeal to both of those audiences, the design audience and also the people designers work with. Yeah, because that is a main purpose with the show is to help people that could have used for service design to get into it from their perspective. So we don't try to not go from the service design perspective, but from the the potential clients or or partners that we could work with. Yes. And you mentioned industrial shipping. Can you sort of give a few more examples to illustrate what what we might expect when we tune into your conversations? Yes. So the episode that was launched released last week took an article by McKinsey around the data driven organisation of 2025 and exploring what data leaders will be behaving like in the near future. So it explained that they should view data as products rather than infrastructure projects and painted a picture of how data will be used in decision making across the whole organisation. So we took that heavy article and discussed that and gave examples of how it might apply in the organisations we've worked with. Yeah, I've listened to that episode. Absolutely. Jacob, any other topics? So industrial shipping and data, what else can we expect? I would say that it's very likely that we're going to make an episode around automation in the health care space fairly soon. I think both me and David are really interested in talking about that. So it's it's quite open right now, but we're trying to focus it in on automation and digitalisation and then put the service design perspective on that. Yeah. What I what I what I do just as if I say that it's the overlap between service design and technology and maybe you're defined technology more specifically, but yeah, I mean, that's a good way of describing it. I think one of the motivations was when we look at we think there's great potential for service designers to work in the industrial space, you can make a huge impact. From a sustainability perspective, and there's this increasing demand for traditional manufacturing companies to want to engage with service designers because they're going through this servitisation process where services are becoming so important for them in many ways, but there's language and barriers for service designers to be able to work in that space confidently. A lot of it around the heavy technical language that a data scientist would use or the the kind of intimidating IT architecture that all the IT architects will be using. So we want to try and bridge that as a means of helping more service designers come into this space, but then also seed interest in service design within those technologically driven roles. And when you mention manufacturing and the industrial space, what I'm assuming is that these are the companies, the organizations who aren't in the service space, obviously, so not the banks, maybe not the hospitality scene, but these are the organizations that still manufacture physical goods, cars, bikes, appliances, and those are looking into services and how that is transforming their role within society, maybe even. Yeah, I think many of those companies that you just mentioned have been trying to create services or reduce risks in in this space of digitalisation and servitisation and finding it very difficult. So this is a great time for service designers to actually come into that space and help out and make a difference in that journey. And from, yeah, I think both me and David feel very welcome in that space as well. And the classic situation for those traditional companies will be that they start from the technical perspective. They have a great idea for what the technology could achieve and that they don't think about desirability and the customer need and even sometimes the viability and the business model. They start with the technology. So it's really important to bring in that different perspective and start with the customer. So that's often what we're finding ourselves doing. And if you talk to other service designers who are in this space, how do they experience being in these non-service oriented, non-human centred oriented organisations? I think they really appreciate being part of a design community. So when we've spoken to other ones, they actually really say how important it is to be part of a design team so that you have your, you know, that kind of colleague to discuss things and have that perspective together because it can, although there is welcome and there's an increased interest in it, you are often maybe working by yourself in an atmosphere where there can be a few folded arms and people kind of saying, well, what's this new toolkit you're bringing? You know, we've been doing lean six Sigma for ages. They have different types of methodologies. So work, having a community and having a design team with you can really help you kind of go through that friction. Jacob, anything to add there? No, just definitely that's, I think it can be very complex. There are so many things that maybe a service designer comes into that space, haven't been subjected to before. Just IT and manufacturing at the same time can be if you've not worked in those spaces before, can be very daunting. And I think there can be an expectation from anyone working within manufacturing because it's such an old, many of these companies are very old. So there can be expectations that you actually know what you're doing when you get into it, which is not always the case coming in from the service design perspective. So I think that can be a barrier for service designers. But I think if you are curious and willing to look into it, I think it's it's a good space. So there are still so many manufacturing businesses which in fact aren't manufacturers, but they are already providing a service. I think I don't know what is the traditional example of a car manufacturer over. How about I think a few percent of the actual costs of a car go into their materials and all the rest is service related like R&D, marketing, HR, stuff like that. So they are in fact already a service business, but they still operate in a different way. What do you see some how could we accelerate the adoption of service design within those industries? What are some domino blocks that would need to follow to again accelerate this? I think this is one of the reasons why we are doing the podcast is to inform about service design in a way that is digestible by people in in manufacturing and maybe specifically in leadership positions in manufacturing so that they know why this can be valuable because it's a little bit of a fluffy fluffy thing to bring into an organization. But I think that's one way, one thing. Yeah, I'd add to that. Really, it's about business model transformation. So the the poster child for servitization and as a service business models in this space is Rolls Royce engines. And they now sell flight time rather than the engine itself. And that mindset can apply to all of these different products. But it's a completely different business model. It's a different relationship with your customer. And it can actually be different types of customers who you've never considered to be your customer before. So if we can show the potential when it comes down to money, frankly, if you can show the potential that there's these new markets, these new customer relationships and it makes business sense, that's going to be what drives the adoption and service designers have a key role in exposing the customer needs and these different values. I'm I'm curious of the topics that you've covered so far. What's the one that you found the most interesting? So in a in a in a podcast that we're recording at the moment, we're looking at autonomous shipping as a classic example of a product service system that enables autonomous solutions for the future. So it's based on some academic papers. Now autonomous shipping is we're going to go from a state where you have lots of these cargo ships floating around and they're heavily manned and they're people not great living conditions because you have to be away from your family for so long. In the future, the vision is that a team of about five or six people will be able to sit on land and control these six or seven fleets of ships that go around the world delivering our cargo. But how do we get from the current state where it's manned to an autonomous state and it involves a whole business ecosystems coming together that currently don't collaborate and it will need a change in terms of how the traditional power within shipping industries have to change their view of how they get value and who they collaborate with. So for example, they might be working with a startup now a software company that enables this. And this is very new for the traditional shipping companies. But it is the future. It's going to dramatically reduce costs. It's going to by having less staff, it's going to have benefits for the workers. So it's important that these traditional shipping companies embrace this change. So this sounds super fascinating. And now I'm imagining I'm a professional working in the service design space. How do you feel that this could be relevant to me? So we're using the lens of autonomous shipping. It could be applicable to any other type of new autonomous product service system. So in the classic that people think about is autonomous cars. But maybe it could also be other types of autonomous services within the home or within the property sector. So any project or initiative that a service designer is working on where there's a vision for this AI powered autonomous solution. It brings the perspective that, OK, you've got the technological side which you need to develop and be ready. But actually, there's the whole value ecosystem, the way that the companies collaborate that has to become part of it. So it brings that lens away from just the technology side. And following up on that, how do you? Because I can definitely see technology leading the conversation in many cases, especially around machine learning, AI, autonomous stuff. How do you bring in the voice of the customer into these conversations? Because it is like technology has a really strong pull factor. I was going to let you go there, Jake. All right, I'll go for it. That's often kind of what we're in the projects to do. So we'll be working with technologists and they're very comfortable with talking about the technology. We're pushing them to say, think about who the customer or the user is in this case. And what we've found to be an effective way of getting the team really to be thinking that way around who's the customer, who's the user, what's the value is to get them to realise that they need to go out and test their assumptions. So we'll often bring cross functional teams together and get them to align around the perspective of the person who's going to be using this AI service and get them to walk in the shoes of the customer to get into the mindset of the customer. And they often have a starting point for what they think the customer wants. But then we challenge them to think, OK, what assumptions are you making here? And then get them to realise that actually some of the assumptions they're making are very high risk for the whole initiative. So can we go out and test this with customers? And then we actually bring them along with the testing and get them to speak to customers because there's no better way to embody the knowledge than actually being part of the research themselves. I don't know if you want to add anything, Jacob. No, but I think it's just really important that is often I feel like where we end up in the beginning of these techno heavy projects is to facilitate the move towards more prototyping mindset because if you've invested a lot of time into technology and then suddenly you start seeing that there might be some cracks in the value proposition or anything connected to the humans that are going to use the thing that can be painful. But we as service designers can sorry. We as service designers can ease that by using our facilitation and methods to help them get closer to that prototyping mindset. Yeah, testing assumptions, that's a really powerful step, especially when people start to do it themselves and sort of see that not everything they believe to be true is true. And what I found with working with these kind of organizations is that there is often very strong expert led culture. People who have been in within these companies for a long time and a culture of, of course, we know what our customers want. I've been here for 20 years. Yeah, David, you want to chip in on that? Yeah, no, very much so. And I've come to, I think I started more aggressively actually being kind of aggressively pushing people to say, look, you really don't understand your customer. Over time, I've come to appreciate they really do understand that they've been working with them for 10, 20 years. Often they were actually the customer themselves. But it's about the the the nuances that they're missing. It's about the blind spots. So it's not that they don't understand the customer. They have a huge wealth of knowledge about it. But actually acknowledging there are things that they are maybe seeing through their bias lens or that they're not seeing because they're only seeing that part of the pie that they're focused on. Yeah, giving them. Jacob, yeah. No, giving them that extra layer of dynamics is most often what I think David is talking about here. I think it's a powerful thing. And as soon as you can show them that those extra layers are there, I think that brings a huge difference to their work as well. Becomes more fun when you actually look into the customers more closely. More fun. How so? Because you're you're this may be a personal a personal lens for me. But what I feel like when I get more close to my customers, when I actually speak to the actual people that are going to use the product or the service, it becomes more engaging. It becomes solving an issue for the actual people that are going to use it rather than the company or myself. And have you ever and I'm I'm assuming you have gotten more the pushback of this is just going to delay, as you mentioned, it's going to be more fun. But if you're in an environment where people assume and in some sense know what their customers want and you're stepping in and saying that they don't, you're probably going to get the pushback that this is which you're asking is just going to slow us down. And I think that's where visualization and actually showing examples of where we need. And I think the services design toolkit has that where we can show them insights into what's actually going on. Obviously, that requires some sort of buying in order to get to that point. And that's where I think your podcast and hopefully our podcast as well and things like that that is more overarching is really important to get to that point where we can actually get in and do the explorative work. Just to add to that, Jacob, I think it's important to show that user research doesn't have to be a big slow undertaking. It can be quick and dirty and actually that will expose learnings. And so it doesn't have to be this big initiative. Also, save your gunpowder for the things that really matter. So don't be pushing for user research in every single scenario, but really pick those times when it is going to make the biggest difference. How do you know what makes the big difference? So try and get the going back to this assumptions and ask them ask the team if we're wrong about this assumption, what's the impact going to be? So if this assumption, if we're wrong about this, how you can even quantify it in terms of business value, is this an assumption with a very high business value risk? Well, that's probably something to have some deeper research around. Jacob, you've been doing a few episodes so far. I'm curious when we cycle back to the podcast being the podcast producer, host, facilitator. What have you learned so far? Um, I don't even know where to begin because I'm learning so much doing this. It's for me personally and professionally, it's a fantastic tool for digging into complex issues. That is one thing. Digitalization and an automation, obviously, but also getting better at my work as a service designer by talking to David and talking to guests, just making sure that I have these questions top of mind every day. And then there's also the technical aspects of. Producing a podcast, just making sure that it sounds good. And that can be very useful in my work as well. I think we've both, me and David, started talking about using audio more in our presentation of the work, making it more alive that way. David, what would you say is the biggest thing you've learned so far? I've really enjoyed the rhythm we've started to fall into of recording every week. And so it makes us both look at kind of a bit alert for different topics and then an extra reason to read an article and try and make sense of it. So I've really enjoyed the process, both when we're recording the conversation, but also when it goes before it being alert to different topics. I recognize this very much because when I started out with the service design show, one of the reasons I did that is I was looking for an excuse to be able to pick the brains of people who are smarter than me. And that's not the hard part, but actually going out to do that. That's that's the hard part. And for me, like having an excuse, like I'm going to interview and we're going to record it, that was a great way to just get out into the world, start asking questions, be more curious. So I definitely recognize what you're saying. Not everybody. I would advise everybody to start a podcast, but I'm sure that there are other ways to sort of feed your curiosity because I think that's at least that's what's happening to me. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you've had this, Mark, but I'll often find that within a few days of recording a podcast, I'll find myself the topic that we've spoken about will come up as relevant in conversation. Equally, I'll be listening to the service design show and then something comes up that week where it's relevant. So it's a it's a way of surfacing topics that are of interest that actually come up as applicable in your day to day work. Anything to add to this, Jacob? No, not really is, but it's really true, though. It's it's a great way of processing and getting to know things that you didn't know before looking into the topic. And it's a it's a different version of listening to a podcast, creating a podcast. It's more intense, of course, but you still get that. Cooked down perspective of the topic that is fascinating and speaking to interesting people is obviously an extreme benefit. And speaking of interesting people, do you have like a dream guest that you'd like to have on the show? I see you're nodding, David. Yeah. I mean, my dream, I have no experience of working in this space, but I'm so curious about robotics and elderly care because there's so much potential there for robots to help with an aging population. And so I'd love to speak to someone who's working on the front line in terms of developing robotic services that help with elderly care. So that would be my dream interview. Jacob, what about you? Yeah, I think it would be really interesting to have a thought leader in the automation space. Come and talk to us. I think someone that is writing all these articles from from different think tanks. And just for me right now, that would be very interesting to have these very productive people come on and give us a little bit of a lowdown on what's going on and how they're working. So there are millions of people listening to this service design show right now that could be potentially have helped you. Do you have any questions? How can we help you as a service design show community in your journey that you're on, Jacob? I would love feedback, honestly. It's one thing that I'm really excited about is when someone and that's happened a couple of times already when someone reaches out to me and tells me things they liked or things that they thought was maybe difficult to to understand in an episode. But suggestions and feedback. David, anything to add? Yeah, I mean, we eat our own dog food. We do really want feedback and suggestions of how we can improve things and topics. But please listen to the podcast. Would be the first thing that people could do. And then if a subject matter is interesting to you, like reach out to Jacob and I on LinkedIn. And we'd love to have conversations spinning off from the podcast. So please listen to the podcast and get in touch if there's something of interest. And with regards to topics, you mentioned, for instance, healthcare and automation and robotics. Any other topics that people could maybe link to or sort of, yeah. Yes. Smart cities. There's going to be huge changes in terms of automation in the way smart cities and smart properties are being run. Again, that's something Jacob and I are really interested in, but don't necessarily have a huge amount of experience in. So if there are people working in that context, or maybe there's other types of places where robots are having a key role. For example, we've been learning about how journalism is being taken over by bots. So now many of the articles that you read started with the financial reporting, but it's getting further. It's now written by a robot. And there's maybe surprising areas where we don't even realise robots are playing a key role. So anywhere that you can see robotics, which don't have to be the big metal arms. It can be this robotic process automation as well. We're really curious about that. So please get in touch if there's areas that you know about. Jacob, is there anything on your wish list as the topics that people could bring forward? I think that sums it up very well. Having people reach out to us if there's unexpected robotics would be fascinating because it's coming to a point where robotics are everywhere and it's not highly visible as well. It's quite hidden from view sometimes and getting to know that would be fantastic. So if anyone has an unexpected place where robotics have an influence, then we would love to discuss the services science perspective on that. Yeah, so would I. I would be really interested to hear that because there have been a few episodes on the service design show about the intersection between service design and AI, service design and technology. But to be honest, not that many. If I look in the grand scheme of the 145 episodes so far, and I'm sure that there are people in the service design space who are working in a heavily technology oriented environment that they are probably a minority and would be great. Like it's really hard to find those individual souls who are doing great work. Sorry, maybe aren't yet on the conferences, on the stages. So, yeah, if you are one of those people, step forward. And before we sort of start to wrap up, I'm curious, you mentioned that you also listen to a lot of podcasts yourselves. Obviously, next to the service design show, what are some of the podcasts that you listen to and you enjoy? You think might be relevant for the listeners? If I go first, Jacob. The Power of Ten by Andy Palayne. I think it's a great design podcast, really enjoyed that. And then my favorite kind of techie IoT one is by IoT One called the IoT Spotlight. Really great content. They go really deep into different types of topics. It is quite technologically focused, but really recommend. So both of those podcasts are great. Andy has been on the show as one of the first guests. Yes, almost five years ago, I think. Jacob, what are your favorite suggestions? I'm very much into the behavioral economic right now. And I'm listening a lot to Freakonomics and the whole Freakonomics radio network. So those podcasts come in at a clear second place. And I like your suggestions from the perspective that I also think that in order to become a better service design professional, you need to learn about stuff that isn't service design. So reading about or listening to behavioral economics, listening to IoT, anything that's sort of adjacent that can help you really to grow as a service design professional rather than just listening to our conversations here about where service design geeks geek out on these topics. I think you need to have both, though. Like the service design show is always it's always good to have that more focused service design perspective. And I think the the combination of both is really what does it for me? Bringing conversations from another field into a service design discussion. And but that that's also exactly what you are doing by bringing technology and robotics into the conversation about service design. I think that's really what we need to actively seek out the topics. The experts that aren't per se part of our inner tribe and see how we connect with them, because I think for a large part as a service design community, we are bridge builders. We need to understand what's happening in those other fields in order to create those bridges. At least that's my perspective. Couldn't agree with you more, Mark. So where do people find you? So we're on all good podcast platforms, Spotify, iTunes. If you search designing the robot revolution, we come up on all those platforms. And yeah, yeah, yeah, Jacob. No, I just if if people want the recommendation from a service design perspective, I would listen to why every service designer's dream should be to work in manufacturing. I think that's a good introductory episode to our podcast. That isn't too techy, but still kind of a nice mix. I'll make sure to leave all the links in the show notes to that and also to your LinkedIn profiles. Any last words before we close off, Jacob? I'm just so happy to have been here. Thank you so much for listening to us and I hope to see you again soon. And thank you very much, Mark. Really appreciate you getting us on and big fans of the podcast. And we appreciate you as the elder statesman in the podcasting world coming and helping up a couple of upstarts. I wish you all the best in the journey and have a lot of fun and keep making that content even regardless how many people tune in. If it's just one person who gets benefit out of it, I think it's already worth it. So keep having those conversations. And yeah, I'll definitely be following what you're doing and I'll be enjoying the new kids on the block. Thanks, Mark. Thank you. I really hope that you enjoyed this conversation with David and Jacob. And if you did, make sure to check out their podcast Designing the Robot Revolution. The link is down below in the show notes. Thank you for watching to the service design show and I'll catch you very soon in the next episode.