 That's Rachel Fukumoto. Hi, Rachel. Hi. Nice to see you again. Yeah, nice to see you. Yeah, Rachel's from Hawaii Energy. And she wants to talk about Honawha School this time, what Hawaii Energy is doing there. So give us the poop. I mean, it was such an exciting week. We started off on Monday at a school assembly. And so there were 700 students in attendance. And so what Hawaii Energy did for Honawha School, they're out in Waipahu. We provided an incentive for energy efficient lighting. And so they took that. And they're a pilot school with Abterra energy, too. So through the Kahe program, they really just did energy efficiency first. So they worked on their lighting, their air conditioning, really brought their load down. And then they put PV panels to make up the rest of it. Is this a drill or a real thing? It's a real thing. Real thing, all right. Yeah, it was incredible. And so hopefully this is the pilot school. And other schools around the state can use them as a great example. So what kind of reactions do you get from the kids? Oh, it was wonderful. We really got them involved. A lot of them did do home energy audits. They took it home, what they learned at school, and then they brought back the information back to the classrooms. And so actually two of their students, they wrote essays. We want to give a shout out to Shannon and Brianna. They were wonderful. And so Shannon and Brianna, OK? Yes. And so they actually received home energy retrofits for their house as well for doing that and participating. You know, the thing about kids is they talk to their parents, most of them. And most of them, parents listen, actually. Kid comes back from school and he's all excited. Was she all excited about energy? Tells the parents. All of a sudden, the parents are learning something. So you guys are very clever. Using the parents, the children is a way to get to their parents. You know, it's all about market transformation. And so with Hoy Energy, we provide these behavior and market transformation programs, really providing the education at the school level. And so hopefully, we can really allow these kids to, like you said, take it back to their parents. And hopefully, their parents can take it to their workplace too. Yeah, filtering that information into the community, disseminating it. The idea is to change the way people think about energy and about clean energy. So it's a project that Hunter White done? Yes. Everything is completed. And so now, I think the Cahe project, they're in the woodworks of finding more schools to participate and just really using that school as a great example. Yeah, so now you have a template. Yes, exactly. So use it again and again. So can you tell us, or is it a secret, as to the next school you're going to be visiting? You know, I'm not sure. But we have to stay tuned. OK, you have to come back and tell us more about this adventure, this most excellent adventure by Hawaii Energy and Rachel Fukamoto. Thank you so much for coming there. Thank you. Yeah, aloha. Aloha and happy New Year. It's 2017. Please keep up with me on Power Up Hawaii, where Hawaii comes together to talk about a clean and just energy future. Please join me on Tuesdays at 1 o'clock. Mahalo. Hi, I'm Tim Appichella. I'm the host for Moving Hawaii Forward. And the show is dedicated to transportation and traffic issues in Oahu. We are all frustrated by sitting in our cars in bumper-to-bumper traffic. And this show is dedicated to talking with folks that not only we can define the problem, but we hopefully can come to the table with some solutions. So I invite you to join me every Tuesday at 12 noon. And let's move Hawaii forward. It's me, Angus McDuck. Wishing you to welcome and join us to see us on Hibachi Talk on Think Tech Hawaii. 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And our show is all about educating board members and owners about their responsibilities and obligations and providing solutions for a great association. You can watch me live on Thursdays, 3 p.m. to 4 p.m. each week. Aloha. So, do you have a big party yet? Oh, we're back. I was asking Scott, too, if you had a big party yet, because he's now the vice president of public affairs of a wine electric. What do you think? Party? Every day's a party. Every day's a party. Public affairs, it's all a party. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you very much. Congratulations, vice president of public affairs of a wine electric. And Meena Marina, former chair of the PUC, and the chief cook and bottle washer at Energy Dynamics blog, which you write all the time and is very well informed. Well, I mean, I kind of backed off for a while. I got to get back into it. OK, we'll be looking. We'll be watching you. OK, thanks. So February is a very exciting month. Yeah, let's talk about it. So the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum is kicking off its series today on the utility of the future. And having both the Hawaiian electric companies and Kauai Island Utility Cooperative participating in various discussions on a number of topics this month. Utility of the future, all February. Every show in February on Hawaii, the state of clean energy. So what is the utility of the future? I mean, just define the term for me. What does that mean? Well, I'm going to define it from the terms of, I guess, how our customers would experience it. So what we are all talking about, and when I say we, it's not only us at Hawaiian Electric. There's many, many conversations happening about this, which is that in the future, our customers are all going to be playing such a critical, active role in terms of not only how they use energy, which is what we currently do, but then also how we play a role in actually allowing this energy system of ours to actually operate and do so in an efficient economic manner. It's a little bit different because normally, the traditional utility system is, well, we are there. When you turn on your lights, we figure out, how do we get the power to you? That utility of the future means the customer and the utility are actually working side-by-side, dynamic, real-time. It's going to be a much more complicated system, frankly. But at the same time, ultimately, the customers get more value from it. So I think that's a pretty squishy description, but it is really a different dynamic. It's a story of transformation is what it is. Different technologies, different roles. I think basically what you're looking at is the utility as a platform that can either provide services or receive services to have this transactional relationship with the utility. So good for you, good for one electric, good for the state. Wish you well in this. I think it's going to require a change in public thinking. It's one thing for the utility and for the industry to understand this, but the public have to understand that it's a two-way street and that it's a handhold, a collaboration as never before. That's pretty exciting, actually. How are you going to do clean energy at the same time? Well, I mean, clean energy is actually a part and parcel of that utility of the future. We're all moving towards the 100% renewable energy future as well. So it's not only, I mean, there's the clean energy piece. There's the figuring out the role of our customers and the utility and our other stakeholders, our regulators, and very critically, which is really the topic that I'm here to talk about. How do you do this so that throughout thick or thin, your utility system, your energy system is going to be there to function and deliver the power to you? We're talking about reliability and resiliency. That's interesting, because if you look back at the old model of utility is, we're here. We'll do it. Don't worry about it. It's going one way. And we will be responsible to get it to you on a reliable basis. Now it's more complicated because it's two ways. And the assurance of reliability is all the more important. And there are so many things that could get in the way of reliability when you have a two-way street. So this is an exciting time. Or as they say in China, an interesting time. So I think one of the questions that we want to ask Scott is, since today's topic is grid resiliency in an era of climate change, so I think one of the things that we want to start off with is what is the definition of grid resiliency? And that's really important, so we all have a common understanding of what we're talking about. Well, these are three of us anyway. Yeah. And it's actually a very good place to start because, I mean, I tell you, even in the energy industry, sometimes we start off with different conversations because we have a different framing of the meaning of reliability versus resiliency. So the simplest way. And that was the second question. What's the difference between resiliency and reliability? So the easiest way that I think about it is that the reliability is something that we have all talked about very frequently over these past several years. And it talks about, OK, well, how often might I experience a power outage? What is the duration of those types of power outages? And the utility industry, we have metrics where we track our performance. So again, it's the frequency of outages and duration is typically how you might measure your reliability. It's every day, right? Real time, every day, there may be a car that hits a pole and we have a power outage somewhere. So how do we actually manage reliability and do what we can to improve it? Resiliency talks about more from a, I would call it a broader view from the energy system as a whole. What is the capability of our energy system to be able to withstand the big shocks to it, whether it's from a natural hurricane event or a cyber security attack or something really bad happening? And will our system be able to basically bounce back? How can we minimize the damage that takes place in the first place? And then how can we bring our system back and recover? So those are the nuances, reliability versus resiliency. OK, so let's talk about reliability first, OK? Am I right to think that there are additional reliability considerations and issues when you move toward clean energy and you move toward this collaborative handshake in terms of the concept of the community and the utility? Yes, absolutely. And I think maybe the simplest way to think about it is, like you said, Jay, in the old days, the utility had its handful of power plants. We had our lines and poles going out into the neighborhoods. And essentially, we could easily tell when something went wrong. And I think the main thing here is the flow of electricity is just in one direction. Right, right, right. In the future, when we talk about having, literally, thousands of customers playing a real time active role in producing electricity, obviously consuming electricity, now you're talking about how do you manage the reliability when there are so many different inputs and factors. And little things can go wrong over here. Over there, you have a resource to compensate for that and so on, so it is much more complicated. One of the, I guess, the fundamental tenets that we have to think about as we're designing this future utility grid is that all of these resources, even though they may be relatively small by themselves, they can all play a key role in either supporting reliability or also harming it if they haven't been designed correctly. So yeah, it is going to be more complicated. I think my overarching message is that all of us, all of our little resources, will play a very important role. It's very important that we all have those resources, though, to serve as tools that the system operator can use. It is going to be more of a challenge, I think, if we start to lose the control of certain resources. Certain resources may be more flexible and provide a lot more value. What's a resource? I'm sorry. When I say a resource, that is my generic term to consider that a customer's load, your energy use, can be a resource for me. If I'm the system operator, if you are a generator, you are actually producing electricity, that can also be a resource for me. The information that you may have in terms of what you are planning to do with your usage can be a resource for me, because that can help me actually plan ahead. So all these different, these are different types of resources than what we have traditionally thought of, like a resource being a power plant, for example. The inputs into the system. That's right. So the question is, how do you do that? Little black box, about that big. Well, I think that's one of the challenges for the Hawaiian electric companies. I'm having visibility within their system so that they can make these kind of split second decisions to balance the system because it always has to be in constant balance. And so not having the tools like advanced meters. What are the tools? I mean, by this time, you must have an idea about what tools are necessary in terms of function and who's making them and where can you get them and how can you replace them if they fail and all that? Well, I would actually correct you on that. I think we have a general sense of the types of tools that are going to be needed. But as far as knowing, OK, this particular manufacturer provides this piece of equipment, and it'll cost specifically this amount of money, that's where, depending on the type of technology you're talking about, the jury is still up. Is it jury out because there are multiple possibilities and that, I mean, I'm really interested in, is it that you can say, Jay, you can use A, B, or C, different brands, different just follow these specs? Or is it that you totally can say, look, Jay, you better use A because A is the one we like best and that's the one that's safest. Which way do we go on that? I would say it's more of the, and let me use an actual example to sort of see our thinking. Let me use, as an example, a plug-in electric vehicle that actually is capable of not only taking electricity from the grid as it's charging, but also perhaps delivering electricity back. Sometimes people call that a vehicle to grid type of system. That's a great resource because, hey, if I need somebody to use electricity at a certain time a day, good, charge that car. And if I need somebody to give me some juice back to the system, OK, good. That car can provide that to me. I am not at a position today to tell you, Jay, that, well, OK, already the technology is robust enough that manufacturer A is the one to go with. Because although I know that certain car manufacturers are already basically demonstrating this capability, it's not enough that they've been able to really bring it to market. And so I can't really tell you, or I wouldn't want to tell you or recommend, which vehicle to go with at this time. It's just still developing. But yet we know already that in the future, that's the kind of technology, a consumer, almost product that is going to be real critical to making this whole system work. I'm really curious, though, when we get there, and we know all that we need to know, and we have pilot programs to rely on and all that, are you going to say to me, Jay, A is the one? Or are you going to say, Jay, you have choices. You can do A, B, C, or D. It's sort of like the telephone company. Originally, they had their own phones. They owned the phone. And you rented the phone. But then there was a flood of phones on the market. We all know this before cell phones. Is it going to be like that, or is it going to be just one? I highly doubt that it's just going to be one, because these types of technologies, I mean they're not going to only be valuable here in Hawaii. They're going to be valuable on the mainland and other countries. So I would really expect that there is going to be a good competitive market for different types of products that will meet certain standards. Do you see that also plug-and-play? Yeah, that would be the best. But part of the challenge is all of these standards have to be developed. And that alone is a safe process. Well, they have national standards for it, international standards for it. Do we not have standards for plug-and-play now? Well, see that's a little bit tricky, because this great 100% renewable is that Hawaii is launched forward. And given that we have relatively small island grids, they don't have, frankly, they don't have the national standards in place which would really necessarily govern what we need here in Hawaii. So Hawaii, we are actually on the leading edge of actually identifying the needs. What should the standards be for our systems? And then ultimately, that will be what we are targeting for these technologies. One of the challenges, though, of course, will be that if we come up with such nuanced standards in Hawaii that these big manufacturers say, well, that's really, really going to be expensive and it'll only be good for Hawaii, then it may take some time for them to actually give us the types of technologies that work here. Well, we could be leaders in this. Oh, yeah, absolutely. We're going to end up being in the center of establishing this standard because we're willing to go the extra kilowatt. Yeah, I mean, when people talk about adopting best practice, I see Hawaii as developing the next set of practices. How do you see Hawaii going forward to a new utility? I mean, what is your vision, Mina? I've been thinking about this, I know you have, of the future. Say 10 years from now. I'm not talking 2040 just yet, but 2045, I know you like 2040, but whatever it is, how do you see it in the next, say, 10 years? What's it going to look like? Well, I think eventually, it's really moving to the utilities being the balancing agency in maintaining the grid and monitoring the participation on the grid for services. But I see that as a long time coming because- How many years do you see it? Oh, God. I love asking these questions. That's what they pay me the big bucks for, yeah. You know, it's how fast we can move on developing the right rate structures because if you're looking at adopting a market approach, the rates has to be right. You know, the right price signals have to go out. And that is a slow process. How slow do you think it is, Scott? Well, you know, I think there's part of the challenge is that there's a number of different areas that have to actually transform. I mean, a lot of times people just talk about, well, what's the utility got to do to transform? You know, we can transform all we want, but if other sectors are not transforming as well, so technology development sector. Regulatory structures and how we are regulated needs to transform. Our customers' expectations and the market, that all has to transform as well. So when you put all those together, yeah, it can be a long time. I do think that- Five years, 10 years? Yeah, 10 years, 10 years maybe? I don't know, I'm not. I have no secret crystal ball about that. It does really come down though to having to have a broader systems approach. You know, when I've just rattled off, you know, these three or four or five different areas that need to transform, that's gonna be critical. It is a systems approach that has to be taken because you can do all you want in one sector and you're just gonna be fooling yourself if you're thinking you're gonna solve everything without addressing those other sectors. Yeah, this is hard business because it's a moving target, all these, and you don't have control over everything. You have to negotiate with these resources and people and agencies and what have you. Well, you know, going back to what Scott was saying earlier about, you know, he can't tell you what technology to buy right now as, you know, they're being developed and tested and nor should they, you know, if we're really looking at a market approach for various services. So, you know, the big question is what kind of investments do we make today that we will have no regrets? Who's we? All of us. You know, what? The rate payer, the utility, the state. Where do we put, where do we put the subsidies? Where do we put the taxpayer money? Where do we put the rate mayor pay? She says it's a big question, Scott. So, let's see, so you're asking me what's the big answer? Well, I mean, that's what you're struggling with with the PSI key, right? Yeah. Who's gonna pay for this? The rate payer. Well, ultimately the rate payer, but here's the other aspect. Okay, the other area that needs to transform is we as a state need to be smarter in terms of how do we actually monetize all of this good work that is happening in Hawaii? You know, how do we actually... The know-how, the best practices. The know-how, the intellectual property value. I mean, let's stop being just, you know, the very nice folks to say, hey, come here and develop your technologies and we'll help you do that and, you know, can you give us a slight discount on what you're selling us? And meanwhile, we're actually helping these folks develop their technologies and then they go off. Yeah, that's true, that's a good point. So, but you're talking about intellectual property protection, what? Well, I mean, that's just one component of it. I mean, I'm talking about, you know, what about joint partnerships? What about as we design and test the new piece of equipment on our electric grid here? What about that company and whether it's Hawaiian Electric or, you know, other estate agency actually having a discount? We have to be mindful of that because if we're gonna be out there in the front leading this and doing all these innovative things that help other people elsewhere, we should have some sense of control on it. But let me go to the other point that we need to discuss before we run out of time and that is resilience. Resilience in the face of climate change and sea level rise and extreme weather, all those things. How do you make, how do you plan to make? How can you make a grid? The grid of the utility of the future, you know, protect itself and be resilient against those things? Yeah, well, so that's where it really, we have the opportunity, I think, as we are trying to design this future system to make sure that we are thinking about those scenarios that we might have to face as a state in the future. You know, so if, for example, our system of the future is gonna be much more distributed, for example, where we have distributed generation, distributed energy storage devices all around our island, how do we make sure that we are able to, let's say, compartmentalize sections of the island? You know, let's think about microgrids. What could microgrids, what role could a microgrid do on our island? It's like a ship, we have compartments. What a safety compartments. So if one compartment gets flooded, the other one doesn't, same idea. Right, right, right. And you know, this is the part of the discussion that I think, frankly, I think we need to elevate more because I know all of us are so ingrained in talking about the 100% renewables and what specific generation devices are in there and have you. Let's not forget that if we don't design resiliency and reliability into that system, then it's sort of, you know, waste time, right? Because if I can't rely on my power being there, then, you know, all the work that we're doing to try and build the cost effectiveness and clean into our system will quickly be sort of overtaken by not having a functioning energy system for economy. So. Yeah, and the only good planning is to do that because otherwise you might go down the path of reliability and then lose it all for failure of resilience. Right, right. They gotta have them both, they gotta work on them both at the same time. Yeah, and I think, you know, we have to be very cognizant that even though there's a really big push to move towards distributed energy resource, distributed generation, roof top, there's, you know, a lot of chatter about that, the majority of the customers still get their electricity from the electric utility. What, 70%? It's probably gonna stay that way too. Yeah, yeah. So it needs a systems approach, is what it means. Right, so, you know, and I guess we last comment on this is, you know, some of the investments that will have to be made are, frankly, they're not very sexy. You know, we are still talking about perhaps hardening of our system in certain areas. Let's say that there is a critical substation or a set of poles that actually need to be strengthened. Right, that's not the kind of stuff that, you know, you see, you know, in the headlines all of a sudden or we don't talk about those things at conferences, but yet those are actually very critical to really being the backbone of this energy system. And so I do think it's gonna be important that we are mindful that those things are still very important. We didn't have a real time to talk about cybersecurity. I think everybody is mindful that that is becoming more and more top of mind. I think the challenge generally with cybersecurity is that also as we move forward, and we have now thousands of entry points or end points, as you will, we have to make sure that any one of those points isn't somehow a way to somehow bring the entire system down. So, you know, it was interesting. They had a briefing at the legislature about, you know, the government system and how many attacks happen every day. I mean, is that something you can share? Let me say this. The problem about building a system that deals with the handshake and the collaboration with customers at the same time is resilient against climate change. And at the same time has cybersecurity protections in it. That's not easy. And all three, not all, just two, but all three have to be dealt with at the same time. And I agree absolutely. Going forward, that is a big issue and will become a bigger issue. Just look at Mr. Putin for a moment and you will see what I mean. Anyway, thank you, you guys. It's Scott Hsu, vice president of public affairs and also a systems engineer. Yes. I mean, Marina, former chair of the PUC. Thank you so much. Thanks.