 Thank you very much for keeping it y in the morning. My name is Ram Maguko and if at all you're just joining us, you're just in time for the next conversation of the day. It's youth and politics and joining me in the studio, I'm joined to my extreme right, Kwenedi Odwio. He's a political analyst and governor, expert Karibusana Ken. I'm also joined, as always, you started with him. He's also joining me in this particular conversation. I'm joined by Kiragu Muridi. He is the CEO of Vijana Mbele Foundation, Karibusana Kiragu. Thank you. Yeah, and this particular conversation today is all about the Ruto Rila Tough Wars. It is Rila versus Ruto. Samua telling me it should not be Rila versus Ruto but Ruto versus Rila. And I wonder which is which, you pick your battles, which is which. Remember the deputy president William Bruto has asked Honorable Rila Oddinga to apologize to Kenyans. Now speaking on Sunday while attending a church service at the Presbyterian Church of Eastern Africa in Umorja, the DP said the big four agenda would have created jobs for the youth but Honorable Rila Oddinga came in to disrupt the big four agenda, hence this particular agenda could not succeed. Is this true? Well on the other hand Honorable Rila Oddinga accused the DP on Saturday of being corrupt and blames him for grossly inflating prizes of the SGR by 106 billion Kenyan shillings. And I quote, according to Rila Oddinga he says and I quote, Ethiopia has over 700 kilometers of rail which is cheaper compared to our own which is only about 400 kilometers end of quote. Do you think this is true? The Ajna Gazole is one in the morning at Ram Maguka and at Y254 channel between Honorable Rila Oddinga and Honorable William Bruto. Who is your pick? Well according to Honorable Rila Oddinga he asks, the donations that the DP makes to churches, where is that money coming from? Well that is a conversation. Remember we are broadcasting live on our website at www.kbc.co.ke forward slash Y254. Ensure that you head over there and continue following this conversation as we proceed. Let me start with you Ken. If you look at this particular conversation the way it's all about Ruto Rila, their face over the issue of graft. And that is what made the front page of the people daily this particular morning. What is your take? Thank you so much Ram. It's a good pleasure to always be here and have these conversations. My take is that Ruto and Rila are two sides of the same koi and that's where as a person I believe we should look at the third side of the koi which is the rolling side. Generally we've always known the koi as two sides but it's the rolling side that can make a very big difference sometimes. So as a people and I always advise young people because I'm also contesting for a parliamentary seat in Mutula constituents in 2022. And that's where mobilizing young people away from these normal games that we are used to being played on us. Because you look at Rila and Ruto you look at what they are saying when Rila says that Ruto is responsible for the inflation of this koi. Rila is a very close friend politically and functionally of the president. The president controls the state machinery that can arrest any criminal, regardless of his position. The other day we saw the court, the high court saying that the president, there are things that the president did in regard to things like BPI that can make him criminally liable. We have systems that are under the control of the executive. If the right Honorable Rila Odinga was serious that William Ruto, the deputy president, inflated this jar by 1.6 billion. Do you think Dr. William Ruto will still be the deputy president considering the circumstances we are operating in? So there are two sides of the same koi? Two sides of the same koi. Should we get another koi? We've grown in a society where, and I use examples like for example in 2017, we had Mike Songo v. Evans Kideru, in Kiambu we had William Kabogo v. Waititu. These guys have put us in a corner to a level where they only create two, they present a scenario where they purport to have two alternatives, but both alternatives represent them. So in a situation where you are at a point where whomever you elect they eliminate the perfect alternatives and then they remain with their options. You would not pick either of the two? I would not pick either of the two. At this moment and my advice to Kenyans is we've been in a situation where we've been doing the same thing the same way and expecting different results. We are politically insane as Kenyans. So we need to get out of that madness and organize ourselves around a viable alternative. And that's why we need to rethink our strategies because these are people who are in government, these are people who have been in government for the past, their entire lives. And truth to you, they have been in government, they have been leaders, they have been in power, yet they have delivered in many things that they promised to do. They have done a lot, yet you say at the same time there are two sides of the same koi. Kirago, do you agree with him? Well, Ram, I think it is the issue of politics, the blame games and the scuffles. His has this, that. And I think Rayla coming out and saying that Ruto is involved in the problems within the SGR scandal. This is mere propaganda. And as I said earlier, Rayla is very good in attacking strategies. And I think he's a very good in propaganda also. Also, I can remember also my good friend, senior counsel Ahmed Nasir referred to, in a legal case referred to Rayla Odinga as the Rayla doctrine in which elections cannot be fair, cannot be fair unless Rayla is declared the winner. So Rayla has been, as usual, has been in this case of using propaganda as his political strategy to get out of the basket. Do you subscribe to the notion of the deputy president when he asks Hondo Ballera Rayla Odinga to apologize to Kenyans? You also feel like he should apologize for letting down the big fortune? It's a win-win situation considering both of them have served in government. As you said, they have delivered, they have done their parts. So in a case scenario where they have been involved in scandals, this is up to them. They must eat a humble pie, then come back to Kenyans and ask for forgiveness. Maybe they want to run office, they can continue. Why should he apologize to Kenyans at the end of the day? As you said, politics is a blame game. You're running for a seat come 2022. I'm sure you've blamed your opponent for not delivering in a particular way or the other. So I haven't too. I believe you're running for which seat in 2022? MP Kipipiri. Kipipiri, member of parliament. And yours is Butula, member of parliament. Haven't you blamed your opponents over one issue or the other? Just as these particular individuals are also doing? I think there's a point I was an activist. And I was a very radical activist where I used to blame everyone except myself. That's where most Kenyans are. You've not blamed your opponent for anything? I blame my opponent. And as a person I usually say I'm not competing, I'm just trying to get better. So I don't have an opponent. As a person I believe as an office holder you have a duty to undertake. When I come out to say that you spend 110 shillings like it is, I saw something going around. Someone buying a brick that is supposed to cost 120 shillings, 110 shillings. And you buy five times the price and that you undercut the budget for other projects. That's not blaming anyone. That's why I need Kenyans to move from this propagandistic and populistic way of making and become issue best, focus on content. And that's why I want people not... I wish Kenyans would stop listening to what these people are saying. Because the truth is these people are just playing with the minds of Kenyans like they have been all along. So at the end of the day we need Kenyans as a people to rise to a level where we can see the value in the note and not the value in the note. We've already gotten used to that level where what sales raise beyond what we are being told and get to a point where we can look at these people and be able to associate. Yes, you say they have achieved, they have done things. Yeah, we appreciate what they have done within their comfortable abilities. But now how do we at this position, how do we move from here to the next level? We can't move to the next level if you are still thinking the same way. We can't become extraordinary by remaining ordinary. At this point as Kenyans we need to analyze these people critically and ask ourselves, yes, we have achieved this as a country. Is that the best we deserve? No. Why? Did these people contribute? Yes. If they did, how different should we do it? And until we get to a point where we take that power and become the power that determines what happens, we will still be playing. Well Ram, I think Kenyans as usual have been to the norm of what we call retrospective voting. In that they vote in cognizant of what the candidate has done in the past. And I think that is a bad stage of the political situation in Kenya. So I think Kenyans should adopt a prospective vote in which they support a new person, a new figure in the political scene that will bring in new ideas that will shape the economic structure, the government and future and progressive government to come. So we need someone new in the seats that we need. In the political scene. Well, the deputy president was saying yesterday after the church service at Umorja and he alluded to the fact that he helped Hon. Rairodinga become prime minister and I quote. He said that Well, I think William Ruto is also a very good smart politician. He's a political animal. He's a tactical politician. The issue of blame games. Yeah, history has it. William Ruto has been a kingmaker. He made the former prime minister in the 2010 government. And I think this just mere politics that got tanks wagging. So we must understand the situation that these two horses are trying as much as they can to reach to the end in 2022. Now the role of prime minister should never now be given time to become president. Remember the allegations of Yanku Kumi? Yanku Kumi. Yes. Yanku Kumi? Yanku Kumi. What are we talking about Ruto making Rahila prime minister and Huuru president? Those are two particular issues that have been affiliated to the DPA. Remember, we had the issue of people complaining. Many analysts saying that yes, there was a promise that after the 10 years of president Ruru Kenyatta we would have another 10 for the DPD president. And now we have yet another issue where Honorable Ruto is saying that I made Honorable Arodinga become who he is. Now that is my turn. What are they complaining? On the Yanku Kumi, what if the president meant because at the end of the day we came into government at the same time because the president was doing his 10 the DPD was also doing 10. I'm just trying to imagine. And then on the issue of because at the end of the day this guy did not go home he enjoyed the benefits concurrently. And then on the issue of the power that the DPD has the political power you can take away everything from the right Honorable Rila but you can never take away his history as far as our country growth and prosperity is concerned. You can take away everything from the DPD president but you can never take away his energy determination, focus to his goals. So that is something that Kenyans must internalize and understand well. Okay, the doctory the DPD president did not entirely make the right Honorable the prime minister then but you cannot take away his contribution he participated and we all remember even the conversation he supported and mobilized he's a wonderful mobilizer the only person the only person who can challenge Rila in terms of political mobilization today is the DPD president in 2013 and 2017 there are people who will rubbish and say oh the system the Mount Kenya vote but you can't take away the fact that the DPD president mobilized and you can't take away his contribution if the DPD president had not partnered with with the president any any reasonable analysis will tell you that it could have been very difficult there's a probability that the president will not have become president so you cannot take away his contribution but at the end of the day he there were accrued benefits that he gained singularly even when he made the right Honorable when he made Uwuru Kenyatta the president his excellence Uwuru Kenyatta the president he has enjoyed benefits of operating alongside so it cannot be entirely said that he has not benefited and therefore that should warrant everyone else topping the host for for his to pass and I'm looking at what the DPD president said he said that the elections will be held on the second Tuesday of August next year as is required by the constitution don't listen to those who want the poll postponed those are just cold threats you know how is that going to pan out in your perspective that these particular elections of 2022 remember we have had the conversation about whether it's viable even legal legally well I think the constitution it is enshrinding the constitution that the term limit of the president the member of parliament should end in the second Tuesday of August and should the government or rather the parliament exceed by even one hour it will be a constitution crisis in Kenya so I think we should carry out the elections as planned the issues of BBI is the issue that is going to bring a backlog to the elections and I think BBI is not an issue that is of need, of interest of people at the moment we have an economy that is already down on its knees and we need to move forward so let us first carry out the elections as planned then the amendments can come later you are taking a gas to this he insists it will take place as planned I think I want to start by telling Kenya that sometimes we overcomedize very serious matters because there are people who go on television and you will imagine they are comedians there is someone who said that if there is no BBI there will be new elections that is very comical and I think that is something that Kenyan should disregard with the total so at the end of the day on the issue of the elections and the deputy president I personally believe common sensually in BBI there are situations that can cause the postponement of an election that is in law and that is common sense if we are in war, if there is a serious pandemic so at the end of the day as per the constitution an election is supposed to be held after every 5 years but in the event of a circumstance that forces us that justifies the postponement their constitutional mechanisms and that is why I think I would like to differ with Nuretha because at the end of the day things are not cast in stone and it cannot be that because it is written it must always happen and I also disagree with the deputy president when he says elections must be held because now there is no difference between him who is saying elections must be held at the end of the day we are a democracy and democracy is about people having conversations we want to do this but there can always be a better way so at the end of the day yes we want to have elections that's how it's supposed to be but what if something happens what if COVID blows out of proportion to a point where even some of us who have taken the jobs are no longer safe too so at the end of the day we need to always have that to operate in an open environment to attain possibilities to a level where we can accept that there can be differences but as long as whatever changes come are for the people not for a few people to sit down like you are discussing about people who sit down and decide and it was very ashamed when you are doing the newspaper analysis when you say that some people sat down and made him the deputy president for someone to admit that way and then still becoming and telling us so at the end of the day we can post 10 elections if it's in the interest of all the Kenyans but it's not for 2 people 3 people, 5 people to sit down and think they have more power than 50 million Kenyans and determine that that will not accept I want us to bring it to a close on this particular note here if elected we have 2 people who have made a particular comments 100 people are allowed to 200 people are not allowed to 100 people are allowed to say that if elected he will ensure that he fights corruption and he will jail corrupt people if elected on the other hand 100 people Musala Mudabedi says that if God grants me the opportunity to be the leader of this country I will lower the taxes and one way that he will do that is through the fight against corruption Kiragu you thought it was to this I think Musala Mudabedi one thing that attributes him he is a humble character he is a very humble leader and also he has been very sentimental on matters involving our economy he keeps on saying that we should do something to cushion Kenyans especially during these times of COVID-19 he keeps talking about the taxes he keeps looking at the future of an economic structure of the country and looking at the history of Mudabedi once he was the finance minister of Kenya in the year 1995 and I remember he was described as the minister who improved the physical economic situation of Kenya during those times and also he also attributed in some aspect to the improvement of the kibaki economic structure of government I think Mudabedi if given a chance Mudabedi has a future for Kenyans he has hope for Kenyans and I think if he is given a chance he is probably going to work out of the mud economically because already now Kenyans we are already in an economic market that is too low to be to be in a third world country and I think if he is given a chance he is good to work out of the mud we have a Mudabedi supporter so you watch for him I watch for him lower in taxes he will manage to do that through the fight against corruption sure how do you if elected if memory serves me right the right honorebo majority during the coalition government but I think most of the highlights of what we picked was the Nusumkeka issues and stuff like that if I was the right honorebo prime minister during the coalition government I would have used my numbers the way Jubilee has used its numbers progressively because the right honorebo is considered a progressive ideologue he is considered to understand when he talks about fighting corruption that is one example he had the numbers he never used them to make the radical changes that he has been demonstrating over two he wants to fight corruption they had an issue with the Kirinyaga government over corruption the governor had even sued him they finished it in a gentle man vs lady agreement the question is there was a court case which court cleared the person she had accused of corruption that now warranted that arrangement and forgiveness because at the end of the day we have a situation as a person I believe leadership is not about positions and when I go to butula constituency I tell people don't allow anyone to come here and tell you they will do this when they become elected yes I may not construct a road because I do not have the authority and the vote head to go to Kera and lobby for funds to construct a road most of them fall under that category but there is this small empowerment people are talking about the bottom up economy the bottom up economy is about organizing people at the ground level organizing them and formalizing those organizations so that when you invest that's what I'm doing I'm organizing people at the grass root and then relating with them at their normal levels of life so that when we talk empowerment we talk the small things that they can relate with and grow from so at the end of the day when people like mudavadi say the lower taxes mudavadi is a party leader taxes are being increased I've never seen his party take a position and taking a position is not about as a leader once you have a vote you have a position, you have a privileged position use that position to advance that what you believe in under whatever circumstances but the party has taken a position regards to the issue of taxes he's the one who has taken a position and that's why he says there are these people who choreograph their laziness under the guise of being cool and mature no, he comes out and talks very nicely about to appeal to the people that is part of politics because there are two categories of leaders there are those who lead by compliance and there are those who lead by revolt so he's this guy who is the bureaucratic civil servant who leads by compliance he wants to look like he's good and stuff like that but in real sense where the road meets the road he never makes an effect because at the end of the day when we talk about taxes we are talking about things like borrowing we are talking about things like the debt ceiling we are talking about things like corruption you cannot be talking to the media legislation is not done in the media I do not have a position I may not legislate in parliament that's why I talk on media I write about in newspapers that David was serious about taxes that is what ANC would be doing in parliament if Reino Dinga was serious about corruption that is what ODM would be doing ODM would not be shutting its door to COVID billionaires and saying allow the system if the system is not working we change the system I would like to bring this conversation to a close here and based on what you are saying is you do not support either of the two we are talking about Reino Dinga or Reino Dinga or Reino Dinga you support the sentiments of the deputy president if I am not wrong correct just wrap it up just to bring it to a close in just 30 seconds what would you see this country heading to in regards to the issue of taxation there have been sentiments including what Honorable Johnson Sakaja said the senator of Nairobi that he doesn't believe that increasing taxes brings in money into the treasury instead he believes that we should have a reduction in taxes so that you know and that is what will enable money to come in through the incentives and everything that shall be you know accrued after the reduction that increasing money cannot be the solution in regards to that what is your take well Ram I think Kenya has has a bad has a bad history of economic situation we have an economy that is already down on its knees and I think the government and even the government that is going to come in 2022 into place 2022 their first state of business should be how should we ensure that the economic situation of the country is good for the common mananji you know at the moment we only have a situation we have the situation in Kenya where only an aristocracy economic class of people accumulate whether they are the top the common mananji are drowning in poverty in the backyard so we must bring an economic situation where the common mananji fits perfectly well the common mananji is able to live up to the standards of of living and survive in this country because when we increase our taxes I remember we've seen the recent increase in prices of fuel which is bad for the country and I think the government should come up with a trajectory that is fit for monanji not just the the people in the in the political class good for the monanji but then for the youth taxes reduce or increase how will we be able to come out of the financial crisis of the economic crisis that we are at I don't believe that increasing taxes will help help the country because if we increase the country and already 48% of the budget of the money that is given out of the taxes already is expended to paying debts I think we are going nowhere just in that okay we are we are overly consumer economy and in a consumer economy you cannot develop a consumer economy through capital expensive extensive investment like we are doing in Kenya that's where the problem starts from taxation is no problem if I earn sufficient money that's why in Europe there are people who are taxed 45% 50% and they don't complain and they have no problem because they have raised the minimum which is more money in more pockets creates a higher tax base the problem we have in Kenya is that the over concentration of wealth but she will tell you that if you took one billion and gave one man to invest and you took one billion and shared one million among us to one thousand there's a higher possibility of you recovering your money as opposed to concentrating it that's how we operate as a country we take money we concentrate in one corner such that if something happens one thousand people will die so we need to raise to a point as a country where we focus more on production even when we are doing budgeting you look at our budget it's more expenditure based we need to look more on production increase our levels production so that by the time we are taxing people we are taxing people who have sufficient income and you create an environment where people can thrive because last day I want to say something we are in a country where there is desperation and that's why taxes can only increase today in Kenya cultivating Irish potatoes is like planting bam because you need a license and all that stuff that's just a level of desperation and to do that we need to re-engineer our thinking re-engineer our economic models so that we start doing economic planning as opposed to political planning thank you very much that is Kennelly Odwayo and Kirago Muruti very interesting comments what is your thoughts on this let me just sample get to see what people are saying on social media I want to say thank you so much to Louise Moli and some good morning watching Mama Kanansi also there Arnold Okunyuk and some good morning all right we are watching from Naivasha Olkaria we have Moses Maena Kelvin Ochuku Maknon Ochwe Osirian Two Lakes they are in Osirian Two Lakes we have Racha Josean Osama counting it all right Ken Atizan Osama Auta Kitale watching you thank you very much Ken let me just sample just one more this is Slam Enok we have Sam Sam and Dickson Raphael thank you very much for watching Wambua and finally Mary Mwangi thank you so much for your feedback I'm not able to read all of them but at the end of the day it's all about ensuring that the youths participate in the politics of the country and that's why these particular individuals are here trying to buy for parliamentary seats we always wish them the best my brothers thank you and that is the end of this particular conversation right here online in the morning coming up next I shall be joined by Josiah Musili he is the secretary of the directorate of national cohesion and values of the Ministry of Interior and coordination of national government this particular morning let's talk about promoting national values and today understanding values and society both are values and by the way as I said earlier are national values enshrined in the constitution let's talk about that play this is one in the morning