 I'd like to invite the panelists for our next session up to the stage, Gabriela Cuomo, Executive Director of Fintech Open Source, David Treat, Managing Director of Blockchain and Metaversa at Accenture, Jennifer Lassiter, Executive Director of the Digital Dollar Project, and Morton Beck, Head Center for the Swiss Innovation Lab at BIS. Thank you for joining us today. I'd like to invite all the panelists to do a brief introduction of the work that you do and also just maybe, given the topic of our panel, your first introduction into open source. Shall I go first? Okay, my name is Gabriela Colombro, Executive Director of Finas, we are the Fintech Open Source Foundation and we enabled really old constituencies of the financial services industry to collaborate through open source. We've been operating now for six years and since two years we joined the Linux Foundation, so we are a hyperledger sister foundation, I would say. We've been really growing in terms of banks, buy sides, regulators, and now Fintech's increasingly joining the open source collaboration, which is quite unprecedented. And if you ask my first introduction to open source, it was about 15 years ago as an open source committer to the Apaches Software Foundation. It's pretty different back then. I think I had dreadlocks. Dave Treet, in this context, so I founded Accenture Blockchain Practice back in 2015, and then almost immediately, shortly thereafter, I spoke with Brian Bellendorf and said, hey, let's get involved with hyperledgers. It was a founding board member with hyperledger and one of our main focal points right from the beginning, actually. We took a look at where were the deepest value pools, the most important spaces to work on, and it really came down to digital currency, digital identity, and supply chain, and so digital currency has been a focus of ours from the start. My first intro to open source, nobody lets me code anymore. I remember using open source, but I think really my awareness of the governance of open source and actually what open source projects are was really Brian sitting me down and convincing me that hyperledger was the right thing to start. He's a great ambassador for that. He was the ambassador, yeah, drew me in from just being a user to helping to try. And you failed to mention you're actually our new governing board chair of hyperledger foundation as well. Yes. Jennifer. Jennifer Lassiter with the digital dollar project. We are a nonprofit based out of the United States that's focused on bringing the private sector together to do exploration of a US central bank digital currency. My first exposure to open source does not date as far back as these gentlemen sadly, because that's amazing, but started in 2012 with my work at the consumer financial protection bureau. And when that agency was opened, it was open source first, and we had the first open source policy in any financial regulator, and we helped support the then Obama administration and drafting the first US federal open source policy for the US government. So it was amazing. More than back, I hit up the Swiss center of the BIS innovation hub. The Bank for International Settlement of the BIS has been promoting monetary and financial stability through international cooperation for over 90 years. And for the last two years, we've been doing it through innovation. And we started out with three centers in Hong Kong, Singapore, Switzerland, and we've just opened up in London and Stockholm as well. And later this year, we'll have a Euro system one and even later one in Toronto. We also have a strategic partnership with the Federal Reserve. So my introduction to open source has really been through the projects that we've been doing in the BIS innovation hub. So it's fairly recent compared to the rest of the panel. Thank you. I love hearing all the stories. I guess I just ate myself. Well, we all have to start somewhere, right? So before we dive into our discussion, I think it's always helpful to level set on a definition of what open source technology means to you from your different perspectives. So anyone can jump in here. You know, some people think that just, you know, posting your code on GitHub means you're doing open source. So if you could share a little bit about how you define open source technology and collaboration. Happy to take a stab at it. I mean, some people even say I'm doing open source because I'm buying red hats, which doesn't really make a lot of sense. But well, look, baseline doing open source means having a project that is under an open source license. So an Apache license, a GPL license, really any of the licenses that are approved under the open source definition that is maintained by the open source initiative. That said, as you mentioned, you know, most of the times it doesn't just take throwing some code out there in GitHub. A, to build a community. B, to actually solve critically, you know, strategic problems for an industry like you're sort of looking at doing here between Phinos and the digital dollar project and Hyperledger. And so I think it's not, you know, by chance that most of the, you know, critical components of the internet like Linux, Kubernetes, Node.js are actually not only open source, but they're openly governed under, you know, third party nonprofit entities like, you know, the Linux Foundation or Phinos or Hyperledger. Because otherwise, it generally, you know, open source just in GitHub falls critically short when you have, you know, political and really strategic interests around the project and commercial interests around the project. So, you know, I'm a big fan of promoting open governance, not for every single open source projects, but for the sort of type of projects where you have competitors in different constituencies collaborating amongst each other. I don't know what you guys think. I might add that it's, you know, if you think about the alternative, right, so you have, you know, vendor, you know, software platform created software. Yes. You know, it's incumbent upon them to gather, you know, a wide range of industry input to build the right thing and then it's done in a deeply proprietary manner behind closed doors and their whole, you know, that business model is to then generate a massive amount of trust in that it's highly effective, safe, you know, secure code, you know, alternatively for, you know, for, you know, for certainly the utility or common applications that support the entirety of financial services or other industries, you know, that there's a really appealing alternative in open source, which is because everyone can see the open source code, right, the, you know, the quality of that code is provably better generally. And, yeah, this is coming from someone who helps in the, you know, develop software. So, you know, it's, there's a Linux where it's an order of magnitude, fewer bugs per line of code in open source because everyone can see it. And, you know, by definition, and I think that's, you know, phenomenal. And then therefore that ability to address, you know, security, you know, the cost advantages of having multiple parties engage with it, you know, is all incredibly compelling. So, this notion of developing, recognizing the common, you know, our common needs and then being able to get a community rallied around, you know, around, you know, building quality code to address those needs just is, I think, more and more critical. But not everyone sees all those benefits that you just mentioned. So, you know, what are some of the misconceptions that we see in this space about open source, right? There's the log4j that was in the news a lot recently. What do people not understand about it and don't necessarily fully understand maybe about the benefits that you just mentioned? Yeah, please weigh in. But I mean, log4j is an example, right? There was a scathing set of articles around like, oh, this is the end of open source because the source of, you know, of the vulnerability came from an open source project. That is a very myopic viewpoint, right? All software has bugs and issues and flaws. And so, for me personally, if you balance the ability to, you know, to look into proprietary code behind a firewall and figure out where the problem occurred, it's incumbent upon the software developer to really self, to find that themselves versus the open source code where immediately the entire world can evaluate that code, find the flaw, address it, you know, in an open manner. That is a much faster path to, if you just accept that humans write code, we all make mistakes, like there's gonna, you know, or just not anticipate everything. And if you make the assumption that there will be bugs and security flaws in software, would you rather have complete transparency that anyone can help find it and see it and we can all evaluate it and there can be, you know, thousands of people or it's all on one company to basically self, you know, self assess. So, you know, to me, it's, it wasn't a scathing indictment of open source. It was a confirmation of, you know, how they work together. You know, and to Gab's point, right, it's, it then, what it does is raises the real, raises the awareness of the importance of how you govern open source, and you make sure you've got a vibrant community continuing to look at it and develop it and, you know, where you get in trouble in any situation is when the code starts to just get stale and nobody's updating it and maintaining it and putting it into the context of today's challenges. So, and I think along those lines, definitely security is the number one pushback or question that I get. But then there's also longevity. So if it's community sourced, what is the effort that goes into maintaining it? Does it die quickly? And I think what we've started to see now is that sometimes the name, the incubator of the open source platform actually can close with the open source code or platform itself continues on. And that's because you have the community who have established these open governance protocols that live beyond that moment in time when a name is attached to the platform itself. So the longevity piece to me, I think is starting to prove itself to not be problematic. I also think thinking about is open source actually enterprise level platform or is it just, you know, something that you're going to do in your garage or group of people? That's right. And you know, I won't go through the list of global companies who have started to use open source platforms to power their products. I would wager that most people don't realize they're using open source platforms every single day in their life. So that to me answers the question around enterprise grade or not, right? I would actually add one final thing kind of besides what you said. I mean, I think the concept of open source as a hobbyist, you know, Steve Balmer 20 years ago sort of shooting down on Linux. I think we're past that we're saying even financial service institutions, the largest investment banks, for example, in Phoenix contributing to open source. But I think the last sort of myth that is going to be dispelled is this idea of, you know, open source equals free or open source has no commercial value sort of related to the enterprise readiness. I mean, I think over the last three years between the Red Hat and GitHub, as well as several exits and IPOs of much smaller commercial open source endeavors, I think we are sort of past that stage as well. But that would be a number sort of free myth that I think I've seen over time. That's a good transition to the next question. So we've been seeing this shift happening in the last few years, where the open source ethos is spreading to institutions have historically maybe been wary or reluctant to get involved, such as in financial services. I'd love to hear your perspective on this Morton and obviously Gab. You know, why is open source relevant for the financial services industry for central banks? And what is different about the stakeholders now that's driving this shift? Yeah, I would say open source is definitely from a central bank perspective journey. And I think we are just at the halfway house. But if you look at it from the BS perspective, BS is the bank of central banks and central banks are the banks of banks. And the trend that we're clearly seeing is that the banks are really using open source and are embracing it. And that's kind of like traveling upwards now. So central banks are using it, even BS is using it. So I think that's the journey that we are seeing. And I think just from the perspective of being in an innovation hub, you know, we actually built most of our things at the moment in the cloud and there's a lot of open source things available. And there's no way that we could do the things that we're doing without having access to all these great open source tools. So for our perspective, it's great. I do hear the concerns about security and longevity. And we need to figure those out. And there's also been an open tech initiative at BIS. Yes, very briefly. So that's the halfway house I was talking about. So we will be sharing our code that comes out of the innovation hub with a, at least initially with a limited number of participants. So everything is, it's a GitHub, it has governance, it has licenses. But to begin with, it's a little bit of an invitation only. But I think basically the trajectory is that we want to go all the way and to an open source platform in terms of sharing our outputs. Yeah, of course. Because earlier, Morton, we were talking about also open source is a path to realizing our mission of financial infrastructure really serving the public good. Yeah. And I think this is really important to call out because it's what Morton just said is huge. Talking about central banks being comfortable with open source ethos in general really represents this huge cultural shift in a traditionally conservative financial sector. Right. And so I think again, starting to understand that what we build collaboratively and transparently helps us serve our citizenry more directly is really important. So again, that underpinning of open source providing a path for social good, I think is part of what has brought about and we've started to realize this cultural shift, not to take words out of your mouth. No, I agree. But I think one has to remember the central banks are conservative. So this journey that I spoke about, I think we're really about trying to move what I call the production possibility frontiers of central banks and by technology. And I think open sources is the best way to do that. It's interesting when you say it's sort of leveling up, sort of floating up from the banks, the central banks, because of course, I mean, I've experienced has been with banks that is really originally about talent and cost reduction, really the way they started looking at doing open source. Very much like you've seen other industries do, you know, five to ten years ago. So not surprising that, you know, a regulated industry will take a little longer to adopt technology trends. But more and more you're seeing them really trying to drive faster innovation or really solving longstanding challenges. And that's what we're seeing the move from, you know, I'm open sourcing a project to really attract talent, to really embarking into an openly governed shared initiatives, which oftentimes involves regulators. That's one of our big goals at Phoenix as well. So it's interesting to see that this is actually being perceived and sort of floating up as well at central banks. There's a pragmatism to it as well. I mean, the BIS report, right, of the number of central banks that are actively on the on the journey of evaluating central bank discurrency and how to get there, right, it would be incredibly dystopian if that was solved, you know, 178, you know, different ways in different, you know, in terms of thinking about the modernization of our global infrastructure, that ability to have interoperability and have it all hang together, you know, that ability to go through that journey together around some core foundational principles and, you know, and and governance, you know, to make sure that it's done in a way that meets the requirements of systemically important infrastructure at scale and security and the like, you know, there's a pragmatic element of if, you know, even if this if the community of global central banks were split into four or five different factions that rallied around four or five different, you know, different vendor solutions, right, we'd we'd still, you know, there'd still be a significant effort that would be needed to to to weave together the global financial infrastructure in its new form, you know, you know, they just incredibly pragmatic to say, actually, why don't we just have, you know, have a, you know, an open source, you know, community rallying around those common standards and then allowing the central banks to obviously configure for their own needs individually, but be confident in a foundation. And gab, can you share just a little bit more about the cultural shift that you saw that you've observed happening in banks? And, you know, what have you noticed about that kind of shift and and what sparked it more in some than others? It's it's it's really interesting. I think in the last five years, again, five years ago, when we started finance, it was really all about cost reduction, all about, you know, accessing talent, you know, especially U.S. banks are in a talent crunch with respect to the West Coast and based in Silicon Valley. Really, over the last five years, and honestly, when we started, we saw, you know, I still was getting those type of questions, sort of what is this other party doing? What is this other competitor doing? Of course, the type of questions that I'm never going to answer. But over time, we have seen actually this trust to your point of transparency. We have seen trust building across these different organizations to the point that they're actually able to start talking about their share challenges, something that again, five years ago, they wouldn't have sort of trusted to share with each other. And even to the point that we are actually starting to bring all the other constituencies, you know, big tech, which of course, there's sort of an hate and love relationship there within financial institutions and sort of the West Coast, FinTechs, which again, we think open source can have a potential to build bridges there. And even so regulators, which of course, you know, banks really would like to have a more efficient sort of relationship with, but you know, it's always a very complicated relationship. So I think the general pattern is they have overcome their sort of basic misunderstanding or misconceptions about about open source. They've understood again, pragmatism, I think it's a really important word. At the beginning, it was still looked as a charity thing. Hey, how about do I give back to open source? And of course, there's a lot of really positive aspects about open source in terms of being a positive sum game for the ecosystem. Everyone is driving its own strategic goals through open source. I think legally, sort of strategic understanding and just culturally, you know, we're seeing banks really being even considering the technology shift of the industry and the very sort of redefinition of what it means to be a financial institution, they really have to leapfrog into new ways. And so I think open source is really sort of driving that change. Yeah, that's a key part to understand. Like it's not charity. And I think that that is still viewed sometimes by some people. It's really part of your strategic direction and, you know, in a way is how you design what you're doing in order to make it more efficient, resource effective and longstanding as you've all you all have touched on. And it's funny though, sorry to interrupt you Karen, but on the angle of talent, I've heard multiple times bank executives tell me, you know, the new generation is coming in and they're asking us, what are you doing to give back? And as much as again, I think we all agree at strategic level open source is not charity. It certainly is a way of giving back. So it's kind of this interesting I think there's I mean, I think it's a more fundamental commercial. I mean, if I if I if I as a bank or if I'm responsible for making all doing all of the development of a proprietary custom solution, it's all on me. That's a massive investment. And and then I've got to worry about interoperability and working on my parties and doesn't work. Or if or if you rally a community of five or eight banks to basically say, look, we're all going to contribute, I can cut my, you know, you can cut your investment into it down to an eighth. You can you can increase the utility of it because it's been done as a group and you know, it's going to work with your counterparties. Like I put it on very commercial terms of, you know, it's the antithesis of charity. It's it's it's it is, you know, it is, you know, prudent investment governance. Yeah, yeah, that's great. I also feel like I need to say so it's not surprising to me that the financial sector and regulators are, I know I wouldn't say late to the game, but like the latest adopters, right? It is critical that our financial systems move slowly, a little more slowly than perhaps technology is innovating, right? There's there the backbone of our economies. When they fail or something goes wrong, there's dramatic impact on individuals, people lose homes, people lose savings, right? So I think it's actually quite prudent to watch and then step in when you start to see, OK, we've had x systemic problems. Perhaps now I'm seeing through experimentation and other organizations being able to be early adopters that this outcome open source results in these outcomes and that could potentially solve our problems. Let's go forward and explore that. I think so sometimes we get very excited, right? We're all in innovation work. So we're constantly like what's next? How do we iterate? What do we improve on? What haven't we discovered yet? I take comfort, particularly with our central banks, but certainly our commercial banks as well, that they aren't the first ones out of the gate adopting some of these new these new technologies or ways of working. So I just want I don't know. I wanted to put that out there that you know, why is the financial services sector behind? I don't think they're behind. I think they're taking the weight of their remit in a very serious way. And this is how it shows up. Yeah, absolutely. So I think that's a good way to segue into maybe talking a little bit more about central bank digital currencies. We have seen a good amount of open source technologies being used in many of the experimentations. Many of them are hyperledger technologies that are being used in the research. A couple of live ones actually as well for the exploration of central bank digital currencies. Why is why is this technology versus maybe you know, designing something very bespoke and proprietary relevant for CBDCs? Um, I'll start. I think I think there are a lot of different ways. But I think actually, I think open source the whole CBDC involvement has been a catalyst for using the use of open source and central banking because when people wanted to start and experiment with the LG's open source was really the only way to go. So which the project Jasper in Canada project in Singapore, they were kind of like the trailblazers and everybody else has been following this and now there's good momentum. People feel more comfortable actually using open source in their own experimentation in the innovation of we're building also blockchain platform. It's built built on hyperledger best suit. So we are trying. So so I think I think that's true. So just to get out of the gate, open source was the only way to go. Then central banks over the last couple of years is thought more deeply about central bank digital currencies of last year. There was these reports that came out of this coalition of central banks. They highlighted a number of different things. One is do no harm, interoperability and maybe also innovation. And you can map open source to each of those. The first one is more about the ecosystem. You don't want something with less financial stability than we have today. But that's where if you believe open source is more secure than it fits in there in terms of interoperability. I think it's obvious that open source is a key there and also in terms of innovating and allowing people to build on some kind of base layer of central bank digital currency. Again, I think open source will be extremely helpful. Maybe there's some layer where because it's critical infrastructure of security that we might have to think about. It's not unlike how we have it with bank notes today. There's some things we share. There's some things we don't. Maybe it has to be the same way with central bank digital currencies. I would just add to that. I have a tremendous amount of respect by which between Jasper and Ubin and all of the projects that Morton just referenced, the commitment to sharing the results and publicizing the learnings has been fantastic. I think very much consistent with the view of moving towards open source and the common standards that have to evolve in the interoperability points. I've been incredibly encouraged with that because it would be a shame to have every central bank be on the journey individually and have to learn all the lessons individually rather than what we're seeing is a pipeline of projects where each one is saying, okay, the previous ones have proved these points and now we need to extend and prove this new thing and there are a number of things to prove and to get comfortable around it. So that global sharing and openness to basically say, look, each new project needs to put, you need to, you know, there's a whole, there's a framework of things that have to be addressed. Let's knock them off one at a time with each project. I think it's exactly what you would hope for, you know, in that global collaboration. And as BIS has, you know, a view and I imagine you've got a lot of internal forms there with the various different central banks that are part of BIS, how is this topic being discussed about the different projects, the lessons learned, like how is, is there some information sharing or knowledge sharing or how is the approach that each one is taking being discussed amongst the different participants in BIS? So I would say we have this giant BIS innovation network where pretty much every central bank of the world can be a member. And so that's really the channel that we use internally to share within central banking share or the lessons learned. But I don't think there's not that much that we haven't put out in the public in our reports. We're doing some work where we actually try. I think now we have four different projects on cross-border CBDC and we're working on kind of like comparing the results, right? It was all about getting ahead and now we're just taking a little step back and what was the lessons learned across all four projects? So I think that's going to come out soon, that'd be interesting. And Jennifer, how does it? You've announced some pilot projects. You know, how does it play into what DDP is doing? Yeah. So similarly to our earlier discussion, part of DDP's value is that we see the financial infrastructure that's underpinning this work as a societal good. And because of that, we believe, again, well, obviously a central bank digital currency is a central bank digital currency because it is issued from a central bank. So we believe bringing the private sector together and using the skill set and the resources within the private sector in service of helping understand in an open way how what some design, both technical and policy choices might look like to contribute to the conversation that perhaps central banks do not have. They do not have the speed or the resources necessarily. So doing that in service of the social good is very important to us. And I think, again, thinking about that interoperability, the central banks are going to have to work with the private sector, whether they choose to issue a central bank digital currency or not. We're looking at a future world where there will be all forms of money existing simultaneously, I think, for a while. So again, how are we building that infrastructure together to be able to support all the different shapes that that money might take globally? And that takes a diverse set of stakeholders. So it is the central banks. It is the commercial banks. It's the payment providers, et cetera. And we're just trying to fill that one that one piece of experimentation and data in this larger conversation. Just to be sure, like any forms of money or payment system today is a public-private partnership. That's right. And it will also be so in the future. I want to ask, you know, what are some of in the ways each of you have been involved in projects that use open source technology? What are some of the challenges for organizations who are at different points of their open source journey to get involved? What does that kind of collaboration look like? And, you know, more specifically, if you can give us some color to that. And also, how do you kind of blend newcomers with others who are more experienced who have to then work together on these projects? That's a complex question, but certainly one that, you know, when we started Finas in 2016, actually, yeah. The first two or three years were really all about enablement, enablement, enablement. There were a... And there still is, effectively, a very broad fork or spectrum of expertise, you know, mostly into the how. Engaging in open source needs to be done as a regulated industry, you know, from a legal and compliance standpoint, from even a technology tool chain standpoint. But in that experience, even regulated industries are able to address the how once the why is absolutely clear. Once you have a strong business case as to why you would want to, you know, enter open source or an open source collaboration with, you know, some of your competitors, for example. And so I think it all starts from the why. And that is, in a way, the actually the way you can bring, you know, this old spectrum engaged, meaning the ones that are least expert in participating in open source communities, well, engage them in the problem space, engagement into what are your biggest challenges and help us prioritize what's important to you strategically. And then, OK, hopefully we can move you through the maturity chain and have you been able to put developers and influence the direction of the project. But I think that's one key sort of thing that we learned over the last few years. Another stepping stone is open standards. Banks are more familiar with open standards than with open source through sort of years and years of consortia and, you know, standardization to sort of different levels of success. But that's also been a good sort of stepping stone. And then the last point to me is, you know, you touched on it is transparency. The only way to bring everyone together ultimately is building, being relentless about trust. The moment you start cutting corners in any way, sort of departing from the very transparent ethos of open source, again, with the caveat that we do certain things sometimes sort of on a time bound basis in a more private way to, you know, we're conscious. This is a regulated industry, but trust is sort of at the fuel or the gas, I guess, that fuel collaboration. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. I mean, just at the, you know, building on that, I think the if you have the why and the value, you know, as that central point, the momentum you build around it, and then the realization that it's not, there's not one size fits all, right, to Gab's point that how you configure the governance and the engagement and the, and how you manage it, right, this is the reason that, you know, this is the reason that, you know, why Phinos and the Linux and Hyperledger, you know, exist is the, you know, the professionalism around managing that community is super important so that you could, you know, you could make central banks comfortable, right, that their, you know, their needs, requirements and voices standards are, you know, are being met by the code that's being developed. It's, you know, the, you're addressing the quality issues, the security issues, you know, et cetera, that it really is a the community, the community, the approach all has to be then configured to the needs of, of how it's going to be used and the stakeholders and the standards and so momentum, active governance and, you know, and, you know, that's that's matched to the, to the community's needs and that core of doing something really valuable. Yeah, it's kind of the recipe. And it's interesting, I was going to say, it's interesting you mentioned regulators because I think specifically for CBDC, again, I keep going back to sort of this idea of open governance. Of course, you know, there's a debate whether, you know, what the role the public sector and the private sector should play in, in digital currency, I think actually open source and open governance can really provide sort of, I think you were, I think I heard you talking about that in a panel a couple of weeks ago in New York as to how open source could actually provide this place where both public and private sector, including regulators can come together to govern from the get go providing this level playing field so that there's no sort of, again, doubt that either of the party is going to sort of take over. So I want to make sure we have time for our last two questions. So drawing upon all of your relative perspectives, you know, some of us represents, right, a deep expert central bank and end user services for central banks, right, research and regulatory advisory, obviously deep services and advisory experience as well and strategy, Phenos, you know, deep experience in open source and having, helping institutions come along that journey. What are some, and as obviously as we're all in the innovation space, as Jennifer said, right, we're all excited about the new kinds of digital assets, CBDCs that are being developed. What are some key principles that you all think are really essential to keep in mind as we are crafting, designing a new financial services infrastructure? I think more to start. Oh. No, but I do think just to take one, I think inclusion, I think CBDCs and that whole can do a lot of financial inclusion. So I hope that that's the principle and that's also an area where I think if you develop open source that can really leverage that. And so I think financial inclusion is the one thing that I really hope that some of these things can push forward. Yeah, that's really important. If I should say one thing, I think I would say that. That's got one thing to keep it quick. Oh, OK, one thing. I'll take financial inclusion. I'll add privacy. So I think, again, thinking about trust, money as a social construct. How do we start to think about privacy in the state, individual privacy in the state of these new technologies, which will contribute to how successful we are when we think about inclusion goals. So I mean, so let's say, yeah, I'm going to say. So let's so build it building on inclusion, privacy. You know, the core of this is obviously systemically important infrastructure at scale. So the security and scalability and it has to, you know, the confidence that everyone has to have in the in the functionality of their current of the fiat currency is like there's no there's there is no higher bar. So well, you might guess, but it's transparency. And I think it's by and see really open source as this unique way of being able to be transparent, while drive increased security and privacy. And so I'll leave it at that. Awesome. I think those are wonderful principles to keep in mind. And, you know, given what we've discussed today, I would like to share something that we wanted to make an announcement today here at Davos altogether that our three organizations, Hyperledger Foundation, Phenos and Digital Dollar Project, we've really seen this need for open collaboration, open development in the Central Bank Digital Currency Space and the research and projects that are happening. So for this reason, we're coming together to start an initiative, the Open Digital Currency Initiative, to promote open source collaboration and governance in the CBDC space. Our aim is to promote the open collaboration development of Central Bank Digital Currencies involving all kinds of stakeholders, not just central banks, but those who are helping central banks and anyone else who's involved in this space so that we can develop really publicly shared resources and avoid duplicating efforts. From our perspective, we really think that most CBDCs are going to be quite similar in essence and not too different from each other. And so there's really a lot of benefit from collaborating on shared resources. We will be announcing soon how you can get involved on each of our blogs and social media. You'll see a link to a page where you can learn more and sign up to get more information as we do more announcements around this. So I'd like to invite Gabb and Jennifer, just to tell us a little bit about why you felt it was important to get involved in this initiative altogether. Can I go first? Sure, yeah. So Digital Dollar Project is about experimentation. So for us, it's really easy, right? We see a space to really amplify the efforts that are happening currently around research of central bank digital currencies. It's a space for us to bring together our private sector players and introduce them in some instances to open source and start to involve them in a use case that helps demonstrate the value of open source in this space. And then again, contributing back to that social good and that social conversation. And this is a wonderful vehicle to do that. We also have a really deep bench of advisors in the Digital Dollar Project, of which Davis won. I must announce on our board of directors. So and it's a cross sector, right? So we bring a variety of perspectives and experiences, regulatory knowledge. And we're excited to bring the weight of that expertise into this conversation. What I will say is that open is great, but it only works if people participate and use the information and and contribute, right? So please do come to either one of our social media channels and drop your email in to be a part of the process, because if it's just the three of us, we'll have a really fun time, I think, but it will not be as fruitful if we are not able to grow the ecosystem and the perspectives around the table. That's very exciting. Well, from our perspective, as I mentioned, we, you know, we start from the why we start from the business problem. And this is a hugely important business problem in the industry. And so having, you know, the secondary market, the banks already so primed for this collaboration, beyond also the recent involvement that we have with regulators, technology companies. Again, David sits on our board. You might imagine that he had something to do with this, but we really think we can bring sort of this a removing friction from this collaboration. You know, it took us five or six years to really build this understanding, trust and infrastructure that banks can really feel comfortable working in because to your point, if we are the three of us, we'll have fun, but if it's going to take us years to build sort of the critical mass, we know that that's going to be too late. And then, you know, secondly, again, I think we can bring to the table. We're very complimentary to both Hyperledger in terms of the solutions and technology you guys have and the sort of policy, really social good aspect that the digital dollar project brings to the table. So we were really excited to, you know, have the opportunity to collaborate with you guys. Yeah, so hopefully more. I'll just add, you know, just, just, yeah, I mean, just just massive thanks. So the Accenture team is working with the majority of the G20 central banks in some, you know, in various roles and stages of the journey. We're deeply partnered with the BIS and we were just, you know, just thrilled to be able to support both, you know, Hyperledger, Finnaz and DDP. So you're not, we're just, we've already got a base team. We've got a bunch of, we've got a whole set of central banks that are interested and engaged and what a phenomenal set of partners. So really very exciting. And thanks for your leadership, Dave. Did you want to add anything, Martin? Just that obviously the BIS is not part of this great initiative, but we definitely welcome these and other initiatives. And I think it sounds very exciting and I hope it's not just going to be the three of you. Well, that's exactly, we'd love to have you all involved. You know, from the Hyperledger Foundation perspective, you know, we see ourselves very much, not just in this use case, but in many use cases where enterprise blockchains being used as a convener of many different stakeholders to come together to work on building these various technologies that everyone can benefit from, that you can use to build your use cases, your products, your services on top of. And in this space where we've seen a lot of activity already in our community, we thought it was really important to, and where I, you know, as I mentioned, we think that there's going to be a lot of similarities between these designs. We felt it was really important to work together with others in this space where we've got the banking community, the policy regulatory community, and the commercial community as well to bringing them together. So we look forward to sharing more about what we'll be doing. Please be sure to check it out. Contribute. Yes, yes. We are definitely looking for contributions as well. As one little last plug before I think the panelists, Danielle and I have mentioned we do have our Hyperledger Global Forum that's happening later this year, September 12th to 14th in Dublin, Ireland, so not too far away from here. This is an event that brings together anyone and everyone that's building with Hyperledger technologies in all various use cases, whether it's telecom, healthcare, public sector, et cetera. And also we have Phenos who's putting on their event in July in London, right? July 13th. 13th. So be sure to check out those two events so you can hear more about the work that we're all doing with open source technologies. Thank you so much for such a wonderful discussion and all your different points of view and perspectives. I think it was very valuable. Thank you. Thank you again. Thanks. Thank you.