 We're back at AWS re-invent 2021. It's the biggest hybrid event of the year, one of the few physical events, and we're psyched to be here. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm really pleased to bring back the host emeritus, Stu Miniman, somebody I worked with, side by side Stu for 10 years in a setting, much like this, many like this. So good to have you back. Dave, it's great to be with here, with the CUBE team, family here, and re-invent Dave. I mean, this show, I remember back, Dave, going to you, after the first re-invent, we talked, we're like, we got to be there. And I mean, Dave, remember the first year we came the second year re-invent, this is the 10th year now, little card tables, gaming companies, all this stuff. You know, you had Jerry Chen on yesterday, and Jerry was compared, like, this is going to be like the next Microsoft, and we bet heavy on this ecosystem, and yeah, we all think, yeah, this cloud thing, it might be real. You know, 20,000 people here, it's not the 50 or 75,000 that we had in like 2018, 2019, but this ecosystem, you know, what's happening in the cloud, you know, multiple versions of hybrid going on with the event and the services, but yeah, it's phenomenal stuff, and yeah, it's so nice to see people. Well, that's for sure. I mean, it's something that we've talked about a lot over the years, and you remember the early days of re-invent, and to this day, just very develop, strong and developer affinity, it was a tremendous job of building that up, and it's their raison d'etre, it's how they approach the market, but now you've been at Red Hat for a bit, obviously, as well, developer affinity. What have you learned, you know, specifically as it relates to the cloud, you know, Kubernetes, hottest thing going, you know, you don't want to do an open shift commercial, but it's there, it's in the middle, you're in the middle of that mix. What have you learned generally? Dave, to the comment that you made about developers here, it's developers and the enterprise. We used to have a joke and say, enterprise developer is an oxymoron, but that line between developers doing stuff, early days of cloud, it was stealth computing, they're often doing this stuff and central IT is not managing it, so how do the pieces come together? How do apps and infrastructure, how do those pieces come together? And it's something that Red Hat's been doing a long time, so you think about the Linux developer, they might have not have been the app developers, the people, you know, building Linux and everything, but they had a decent close tie to it. I'm on the open shift team, what we do is cloud, Dave, and you know, we've got a partnership here with Amazon, we G8 our native cloud service earlier this year, Andy Jassy helped name it, it is the beautifully named Red Hat open shift service on AWS or Rosa, but we've done open shift on AWS for more than five years, basically since we were doing Kubernetes, it's been here because, of course, customers doing cloud, where are they, a lot of them are here in Amazon, so I've been loving talking to a lot of customers, understanding how enterprise adoption is increasing, how we can enable developers and help them move faster, and yeah, I mean the quick plug on open shift is, our service, you know, we've got an SRE team that is going to manage all of that. A friend of the program, Corey Quinn, you know, says, you know, well hey, an SRE team like that, because you don't want to manage as an enterprise, you don't want to manage Kubernetes, yeah, you need to understand some of the pieces, but what is important to your business is the applications, your data, and all those things, and managing the undifferentiating heavy lifting, that's one of the reasons you went to the cloud, so therefore changing your model as to how you consume services in the cloud, and what are we seeing with Amazon, Dave, they're trying to build more solutions, simplify deployments, and offer more solutions, including with their ecosystem. So I want to ask you, so you said, you know, enterprise developer is kind of an oxymoron, and I remember, you know, years ago, I used to hang around with a lot of heads of application development, and insurance companies, and financial services, pharmaceutical, and they didn't wear hoodies, but they didn't wear suits either. And then, you know, when I talk to guys like Jeff Clark, for instance, he talks about we're building an abstraction layer, or cross clouds, blah, blah, blah, which by the way, I think is the right strategy, I'm like, okay, I'll drink some of that Kool-Aid, and then when I come here, we talk to Adam Salipsky, John flew out, I was on the chime. He goes, yeah, that's not hybrid. No, it's nothing like, it's not AWS, that's AWS's cloud. So square that circle for me. You know, because you're in both worlds, and certainly, you know, your strategy is to connect those worlds. Is that cloud? Yeah, so, right, I mean, Dave, we spent years talking about like, is private cloud really a cloud? You know, and when we started coming to the show, there is only one cloud, it is the public cloud, and Amazon is the paragon of, you know, what that was, and cloud washing. Right, so today, you know, Amazon's putting lots of things into your data center and extending the cloud out to that environment. So that's cloud. That's cloud. We'll call that cloud. Right. What about the reverse? What's happening at the edge? Is that cloud, is that an extension of what we said? From Amazon, if you look at not only outposts, but wavelengths and local zones. Sure, let's say yes, that's cloud, APIs, primitives, so check. Right, so, you know, Dave, I've always thought, you know, cloud is an operating model, not a location, and the hybrid definition is not the old, I did an e-book on this, Dave, earlier this year. It's not the decade old NIST definition of an application that spans, because I don't get up in the morning, as an enterprise, and say, oh, let me look at the table of how much Google's charging me, or Microsoft, or Amazon, or wake up one morning and move from one cloud to the other. Portability, follow the sun type stuff? Does it ever happen? Yes, but it is a rare thing. Applications oftentimes get pulled apart, so we've seen, if you talk about AI, train in the cloud, then transact and do things at the edge. If I'm in an autonomous vehicle, or in a geosynchronous satellite, I can't be going back to the cloud to process stuff, so I get what I need and I process there. The same thing, hybrid. Oftentimes, I will do my transactional activity in the public cloud because I've got unlimited compute capability, but I might have my repository of data for many different reasons, governance, or security, or all these things in my own data center, so parts of an application might live there, but I don't just span to go between the public cloud and my data center, or the edge, it's specific architectural decisions as to how we do this. And by the way, I mean, the developer, they don't want to have to think about location. I mean, my background, server storage, virtualization, all that stuff, that was very much an infrastructure up look of things. Developers want to worry about their code and make sure that it works in production. Okay, so let's let Ms. test that. If it's in the AWS cloud, and I think it's true for the other hyperscaler clouds too, they don't have to think about location, but they still have to think about location on-prem, don't they? Well, Dave, even in the public cloud, you do need to worry about sometimes it's like, okay, do I split it between availability zones? How do I build that? How do I do that? So there are things that we build on top of it. So we've seen Amazon- Okay, that's fair. Data sovereignty, you have to think about, okay. Absolutely, a lot of those things. Okay, but the experience in Germany is going to be the same as it is in DC, is it not? More or less. There are some differences. We'll see often Amazon will roll things out over time and what's available in the cloud. For sure, no, that's definitely true. Okay, that's a maturity thing, right? Yeah. But ultimately, they all sort of catch up. I guess my question would be, is the delta between, let's say, Fed adoption and East Coast, is that delta narrower, significantly narrower than what you might see on-prem? The services are the same sometimes for financial or political things. There might be some slight differences, but yes, the cloud experience should be the same everywhere from Amazon. Is it from a standpoint of hybrid, on-prem to cloud, across cloud? Many of the things when they go outside of the Amazon data centers are limited or a little bit different or you might have latency considerations that you have to consider. So it's not- So that is a tug of war. It is not totally seamless because David Fleuer would tell us there, you're not going to fight physics. There are certain things that we need to have and we've changed the way we architect things because it's no longer the bottleneck of the local scuzzy connection that you have there, it is now- But the point I'm making is that gets into a tug of war. Our way is better than your way and the answer is, it depends. It depends on the workload on the use case. You've looked at some of these new databases that span globes and do things of the like. Another question, I don't know if you saw the Goldman Sachs deal this morning. Goldman Sachs is basically turning its business into a SaaS and pointing it to their hedge funds and allowing people to access their data, their tools, their software that they built for their own purposes and now they're outselling it, similar to what NASDAQ has done. I can't imagine doing that without containers. Yeah, so interesting point I think, you know, was it, God, at least six years ago now, you know, Amazon loads serverless and serverless was going to take over the world. I dug into the space for a couple of years and you had the serverless camping, you had the container camp. Last year at Reinvent, I really felt a shift from Amazon's positioning that many of the abstraction layers and the tools that help you support those environments will now span between, you know, Lambda and containers. The container world has been adding serverless functionality. So Amazon does Fargate. The open source community uses something called Knative and just breaking this week, Knative was a project that Google started and it looks like that is going to move over to the CNCF so it'll be part of the whole, you know, Kubernetes Ecom system and everything like that. Oracle, VMware, IBM, Red Hat, all heavily involved in Knative and we're all excited to see that go into the CNCF. So the reason I say that, I've seen from Amazon, I actually, John and I, when we interviewed Andy Jassy back in 2017, I asked him a follow up question because he said, if he was to build AWS in 2017, I would start with everything underneath it serverless. I would wonder if following up with Adam or Andy today, I'd said, would it be all serverless or would containers be a piece of it? Because sometimes underneath it doesn't matter or sometimes it can be containers and serverless. It's a single unit in Amazon and when they position things, it's now that spectrum of unit, everything from the serverless through the containers, through James Hamilton wrote a blog post today about running Zen on Nitro and they have a migration service for a mainframe. So what do we know that one of the only things about IT is almost nothing ever goes away? I mean, it sounded like Amazon declared the, coming soon the end of life of mainframe. My friends that over at IBM might not be quite ready to call that error over, but we shall see. All these things take time. Everything in IT is additive. I'm happy to see it is very much usually an and world when I look at the container in Kubernetes space, that is something that you can have a broad spectrum of applications. So some of my more monolithic applications can move over my cool new data AI things I can build on it, microservices in between. And so it's a broad platform that spans the cloud, the edge, the data center. So that cloud operating model is easier to have consistency all the places that I go. Mainframes in the cloud. Well, we'll see. Big banks buy the next Z site unseen. So I think Amazon will be able to eat away at the edges of that. But I don't think there's going to be a major migration. They claim it, their big thing is that you can't get COBOL programmers. I'm like, yeah, call DXC, you'll get plenty. But let's talk about something more interesting. So the last 10 years was a lot about IT transformation and there was a lot more room to grow there. I mean, the four big hyperscalers are going to do 120 billion this year. They're growing at 35%. There's a, maybe it's not a trillion, but there's a $500 billion market that they're going after, maybe more. It looks like there's a real move. You saw that with NASDAQ, the Goldman deal, to really drive into business, deeper business integration, in addition to IT transformation. So how do you see the next decade of cloud? What should we be watching? Yeah, so one of the interesting trends, I mean, Dave, for years we covered big data and big data felt very horizontal in its approach to things. Who do you take over the world? When I look at AI solutions, when I look at the edge computing technologies that happen, they are very vertically driven. So our early customers in edge adoption tend to be like Telco with a 5G rollout, manufacturing in some of their environments. AI, every single industry has a whole set of use cases that they're using that go very deep. So I think cloud computing goes from, we talked about infrastructure as a service to it needs to be more, it is solutions. Some of these pieces go together. You know, when Adam got up on stage and talked about how many instance types they have on an Amazon, it's, I mean Dave, it's got to be two X or four X more different instant types than if I went to go to HPE or Dell and biophysical server for my environment. So we need to have areas and guidance and blueprints and heck use some of that ML and AI to help drive people to the right solutions because we definitely have the paradox of choice today. So I think you will find some gravity moving towards some of these environments. Graviton's been really interesting to watch. Obviously that Annapurna acquisition should go down as one of the biggest ones in the cloud era. No lack of optionality to your point. And I guess to the point of deeper business integration, that's the big question. Will Amazon provide more solution abstractions? They certainly do with Connect. We didn't hear a ton of that this show. So, an interesting note. Last thought, we got a wrap. Yeah, so the article that you and John Furrier wrote after meeting with Adam, the thing that caught my eye is discussion of community and ecosystems. And one of the things coming after some big communities out there, like you and I lived through the VMware ecosystem in that very tight community. There are forming little areas of community here in this group, but it's not a single cloud community. There are those focus areas that they have. And I do love to see, I mean, obviously working for Red Hat, talking about the ecosystem support. I was very happy to hear Adam mention Red Hat and the keynote is one of the key hybrid partners there. So, for Amazon to get from the $60 billion to the trillion dollar mark down the road, it's going to take a village and we're happy to be a part of it. All right, Sue, hey, great to have you back. Enjoy the rest of the show. This is, let's see, day three. We're wrapping up here again tomorrow, so check it out. Special thanks to, obviously, AWS as our anchor sponsor and, of course, AMD for sponsoring the editorial segments of our event. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in tech coverage. See you tomorrow.