 Welcome back. It's still the breakfast and plus TV Africa. Well, to our first major discussion right here on the breakfast federal High Court in Abuja Yesterday barring the federal government from further making deductions from the Federation account to fund the Nigeria police Trust fund not just the Nigeria police trust fund But other institutions that are not listed in the Nigerian constitution if you look to look at the Nigerian constitution You have the statutory institutions recognized by the Nigerian constitution of this is after the River State government filed pursuit in May 2020 Challenging the planned deductions and law on which it was promised now the police trust fund fund is not a creation of a Nigerian constitution but a creation of the National Assembly through the enactment of the Nigeria police trust fund establishment act which came into force in 2019 and delivering judgment in this suit the trial judge Ahmed Mohamed declared as Illegal unlawful and unconstitutional the direct allocations made so far By the federal government from the Federation account to fund the Nigeria police trust fund What does this judgment mean for governance and fiscal federalism in Nigeria to help us answer this another? Burning questions on this issue. We'd like to welcome and say good morning to Mr. High King Esquire a human rights advocate who's reaching us all the way from River State and put Hucket to be precise. Mr. King. Good morning to you Thank you very much. Now you are a well-known lawyer in River State This is not the first time the River State government has taken the federal government to court over fiscal issues of us financial issues What's going on? Why do we always have the River State government in court with the federal government of our monetary issues? Well, I Am not surprised What is a good one because the global make downs have made Some state government and some other even the federal government to begin to think outside The box because you would agree with me It is because of the economic now that the local government state government and the federal government are looking for ways to generate a fund Because and what they are doing now is because I'm looking for money, but that there is nothing wrong with that Thank God for that. I think I like that. This is one of the positive aspects of the economic Globally and I do you have to in particular It's very good. What has made them to begin to realize that they can make money from other sources because this thing that's been going on for years Nobody where is it and nobody challenged it? So because they felt that they are not getting enough what they should get and why should this happen? So This is not the first time the River State government is taking like we said earlier the federal government to cut over fiscal issues We can remember the tussle. Yes, it's still ongoing over VAT collection But we have 36 states in Nigeria all these states have attorneys general So if even if the governors are not lawyers, I don't have a legal background like here So we go River State. They still have that can have advice Okay, can you hear me now, Mr. K? Oh, sorry about that Sorry about that, but can you hear me now, Mr. K? Can you hear me now, please? Okay, fantastic. So so we have 36 states in the country even if the governors are not lawyers like we K They have attorneys general who can advise them. How come this has been going on and nobody has made any noise And it's it's we K who is now, you know Doing that and meaning this victory that other states would benefit from Go ahead and Watch for that I think it's commendable on his part. It's very very commendable Like I said, the economic challenges have made them to begin to look for how to make money Because we have the best money some of these bad issues We didn't bother about them. We didn't want to look into all those areas because there has been a lot of money But now there is no money. They are consuming individuals Sometimes I let my tenants be in the house because he won't remember that the rent has expired The good I don't have for that open. Oh, no, no, no, no, no This man has nothing. This man has nothing. Go and look for him. Go and look for him So it's like that I think Because the lack of money is making them do what they are doing And mutual is putting the bull by the horn. Commendable, commendable, commendable Okay, but let's also talk about the constitutionality of the deductions now Because according to the government of river state, you're saying that this is unlawful Being that you have the ptf not a creation of the constitution And what is the implication for state government? Local as well that have to be dependent on the federation account for the handles.com So what is the implication of all of these on these other tiers of government? It's very good right now The implication is that they will begin to do the right thing That you have done the wrong thing or done the wrong deduction for a long time does not make it right That the hand of a monkey has been inside the fort So a young man does not make it a human hand. It is still a monkey's hand So even when you pretend that it is a human hand you can never be a human hand So what really happened now is that this tier of government will get more money Because when the state gets more money, he will not give more money to the local government and this will cut across So what we're doing for is for the whole Nigeria is not for river state alone Like I said, it's commendable Commendable the situation has made them to wake up Second strategy that made the nation to wake up Because they are saying they didn't do it But when the economic crunch continues That's to do is commendable I commend them I commend them for that So this is very fantastic is good The good for everybody is good for all of us Some of them will have more money Although the argument has been made that Some of them will also have more money to invest in Interesting. Yeah, Mr. King The governor of river state has had this judgment in his favor It has implications for The rest of the country like you're saying The different tiers of government will have more money to be able to to share or There will be no deductions going to the police trust fund from the federation Accounts What do you say? What do you think this this means this judgment means for the ongoing debate On restructuring, you know issues surrounding vat states are tackling on or taking on the federal government Not just river state, but also legacy which has been in that battle for some time And now we have this one on non constitutionally recognized Government agencies like the police trust fund or government contributions. What does this say or what impact does this have? On the ongoing clamo and agitation to have a rich structured federation where The the component units have a greater control of their natural resources and financial affairs I think It's part of the restructuring that we are talking about Let me give you a little explanation about this functional issues Constitution of Nigeria 1999 I made them Is the ground norm It is the overall law in Nigeria It does not mean that other laws are not recognized No, it doesn't mean that other laws are not recognized Other laws that federal or state laws are law. If you look at government laws are laws. They are to be obeyed But what were the lawyers are saying or what the law says is that The constitution being the modern norm A ground norm the overall No, the overall law The the almighty law Every other law to make must be subjection To the constitution must be under the constitution It must not go outside what the constitution says. So that is why the courts Are mandated are under obligation to implement the constitution Now if other laws for instance And the constitution clashes the constitution takes precedent If the law of the federation for instance clashes with the state Integral law takes precedent If the state law clashes with that of the local government The state law takes precedent In that order like seniority senior brother Mother senior brother Senior sister and so on and so forth. That is how it is. All of them are laws. None of them are imperial We are only saying if we go contrary to what the constitution says This is it. Now. I have not heard that Judgment, but what I think from what I just Saw in the news that is This thing you are this deduction you are doing You ought not to deduct it from the federation account You ought not to deduct it directly from the federation account where All of us are sharing from Now it's like these are the three parts where the 36 wives Comes to collect soup every day Now this 36 wives will come to Okay Come to this pot to collect soup every month and this Soup inside this pot is shared among these 36 wives Now the pot is says How for that where he takes his own his own if the pot he says we have the reserve idea after he's due to the 36 wives The pot will also have a reserve there The pot also have responsibility to other children that the pot has outside the 36 to the Maybe some compromise And just give the analogy now We are that we are saying that The pot where you collect your own Get from there and give to your concubine Don't take from this pot When you take from this pot you give to this your concubine You not come and share our ration we reduce That is what they are saying. Okay, so the the police found and some other agency are made To be funded by the federal government And federal government will fund that one from their own allocation Not from this central post Central post we are all opposed are to share from because if we have 36 billion to share in a month And you remove okay, we have 40 billion for instance And you remove you remove them Two billion to give to this your concubine And you not share it to share We may not be able to get one one billion each 40 billion inside the pot You give both 36 billion You cannot use the four billion and give to your concubine Just from the central post That is what they are saying. All right interesting. So that law is good. Mr. King Interesting. The the the trial judge cited, you know, section 162 of the 1999 Constitution, which recognizes only the federal state and local governments As far as the federal allocation Our federal accounts are concerned also Section four of the Nigerian constitution as well, but but River state, this is not the first time river state has There are a river state government has led, you know, as well at the forefront of trying to ensure that And the federal government does not dip his hands into the the the pull of funds that should go to the states And they've tried to to make the government at the center do the right thing. I think you have you clearly remember Rotimi Amici as Chairman of the Nigeria Governors Forum Leading the child against good luck, Jonathan And his attempt to dip his hands the federal government's hands into and take from the excess crude account I'm sure you remember that that episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, so but but the the the the point being made by the federal government then under president good luck Jonathan was that time some of these funds were needed for things that would even benefit the state So my next question to you is the issue of um of national interest The Niger police trust fund is not going to serve police men in Abuja alone They're going to serve policemen all over the country Um, we're looking at a time when the Nigerian government is trying to increase the number of policemen To to match up with the increasing population. We have uh, uh, the ratio is not is below the recommended ratio Of a policeman to the populace. So so shouldn't the issue of national interest also be a priority to say, okay Let's let's country in the same way some state governors take money from the local government accounts and say, okay Chairman of local government a this is money. I'm taking you know what I'm talking about mr. King They do this I don't want to talk about river states because I don't have evidence I won't go there but they do these things of local government chairman and chairman keep quiet And so it is in the interest of the state. Okay, if we are going to take the monies for let's say Sanitation we should be a local government affair and then to fund the state sanitation agency That's government is helping us. So shouldn't the states be looking at this as an issue of national interest, sir That is what we are saying you say when you the picture Retreat Injustice and on the other hand you are acting for justice in difficult best We in the human rights community Even when you are perpetrating injustice this way I with one with your right hand that is written in justice And with the left you are asking for justice We will act we will support you on your left to ask for justice And on the right will condemn you for perpetrating injustice that is what We do in the human rights community I agree with you that the governors are guilty Of what they are asking the federal government to do. They are all guilty They stifled the immediate local government And which of the local government has risen up? We put in reverse state Have you seen any of them Rising up to challenge the status quo? One of them made me some time ago that I wanted to challenge the status quo. We agreed And I said okay, I just did my deals and we agreed to so okay Go ahead and let's all start the fireworks They ran away. They chose me that they have prepared us in that it should not challenge the governor and all that I say well go ahead now because as a lawyer if I don't have a plan I cannot go to court on my own and not to look at government channel I'm telling you reverse it. One of them approached us. We have agreed for you to come out But we can't have the bothness to do what you're doing and I commend him for that. I am not It's very good. I want him to even take more initiative because what he's doing Will also trickle down at the point. So I'm not sure whether the police is not for national interest We are not saying politics is not for national interest We are saying that the constitution did not say It should take the money from the traditional account. That is what they are saying The traditional account share the most follow the law follow due process We are not saying you should not now if you But that only has its own money That only has its own money that is from that Boss as we are talking about when you share after sharing President have surplus money If you have your money from there you found the body and it's what you should be The constitution, the framework of the constitution knows what it is So let us know the constitution Even if it is false Even if the constitution is not good Even if the constitution is And let's also talk about the fact Mr. King can we can we also look at the issue you have talked about due process Due process is one thing that has not been respected You know looking at the Nigerian government at different quarters I mean you talk about obeying the law first of all the question is Why would the government want to deduct from the from you know from funds from the federation account where And the constitution does not give them the right to do that So you can imagine the deductions that have been going on and how long these deductions have been going on And different deductions that people cannot account for or people have not talked about So that's on the one hand so what's the what difference does he make now that the river state government Has raised this concern is there a possibility that the federal government will stop this deduction does he make any sense Would there be a case of restitution or it would there be a law that would check the government the excesses At the end of the day and also on the other hand you want to ask yourself with the pdf fund that is created Which is not you know a creation of the the constitution however But you also have the national assembly a creation of the national assembly and then no legal frameworks on how this You know the pdf trust fund should be funded and how they should generate revenue or revenues that should come to them as a trust fund No there is now We're not saying that the pdf is not constitutional Because the body that created the pdf is a constitutional body and they are empowered to so do So they is the position is constitutional The pdf is constitutional every other For the every other thing created That national assembly or the social assembly are constitutional But we are saying that the deduction they are not saying that they are not You cannot even function if you are not a constitutional body If they are constitutional they are recognized, the constitution recognizes them But we are saying that what you Judges are saying is a deduction But not to be taken from the immigration account As for your question, there is always how to fund them You cannot create a body and you don't have to fund them You just clean them and you just go under no first liberty I have not seen how they were created by the House of Assembly There is no law about them young men are just gathered Turn to the streets, they are killing people, injuring people, impounding people's cars It's a natural destruction You must tell us how you are going to fund them But there is nothing wrong about it They are saying that where they are going to be funded If they form the federal government but they don't have a way of funding them They give money to the police hygiene now Give money to the police hygiene Where they get this money We are not a rule of law We have to go Yes Okay, Mr. King, we have to pull the plugs of this one, Mr. King, because of time We have to go, Mr. King, but one wonders if this is the what the Constitution says, you know, the section four of the Niger Police Trust Fund was created in terms of funding And you have section one, two, six of the Nigerian Constitution looking at Which agencies should be funded from the federal accounts? How come the Nasha Assembly did not know or did not take that into consideration? We want to thank you very much for your time And for your expert analysis on this subject matter this morning Thank you very much High King Esquire is a human rights advocate joining us live from the city of Port Hackel River State When we come back, NFPC presents a three trillion narrowfield subsidy bill to the federal government at the federal executive council We'll look at that, but I guess analysts ahead on the breakfast, stay with us