 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Mark Wessels who is the director of education at the zilgen company and We're talking about Vic Firth today, which is a company under zilgen mark. Welcome to the show. Hey Bart It's great to be here Vic Firth is just one of those companies that is just I just think they do everything right You guys everything is very clean and just great products. We're gonna get to the drumstick stuff But first I think we need to take it Way back and learn about the man Vic Firth That the company's named after and I want to preface that with I've had multiple people say in Videos that I'll post online. Wow. I didn't know Vic Firth was an actual guy. So Vic Firth was a man. So why don't you tell us about him? Yeah, and it's it's kind of amazing because he was So prolific in everything that he did that he was famous as a Tempinus for the Boston Symphony. He was the youngest Tempinus or the youngest member of the Boston Symphony ever He was an author. He wrote many Solo books and and ensembles and different things. He was also a great teacher Taught at the Boston Conservatory New England Conservatory music He had so many aspects of his life and he was just one of the best at everything. He did The drumsticks just kind of grew out of that and it's one of those stories of it being Really part of his personality the way the company was founded the way it was run the the goals were basically the man and not a You know a desire to sell as many drumsticks as we possibly could yeah, what year what when was he born? Just so we can kind of put it in perspective. So he was born in 1930, okay, so quite a long time ago. His dad was a band director. Believe it or not a trumpet player From Vic telling me I worked I've been at Vic Firth and Zildjah now for since 2000 So I knew Vic for quite a long time and we would he would tell stories about growing up and his his father In Maine because he was from Maine Winchester, Maine grew up in Sanford, Maine, but His father wanted him to play trumpet because that's what his father did and he said that he tried it And he just couldn't stand it and finally his his dad gave way and let him play the drums. Oh, yeah but he also played the Trombone and clarinet and he said none of those got the girls. So, you know, he just stuck with the drums Wow, you know, it's interesting. I am Couple days ago, I think it'll probably be out before this but I did an interview with Steve Fiddick about Joe Morello and it was something similar where Joe was like a very accomplished violinist and It just he switched to the drums like you get these guys Maybe it's something in the Boston area, but you get these guys who were just so good at all these like Very multiple different instruments. That's I that happens a lot today But it's just something really special and I guess it's that orchestral kind of world it was different that there wasn't rock bands and you know, that I guess that was what you would You know, you would aspire to be doing is is more of the orchestral realm Yeah, it's it's it's Different in that, you know, they had the time on their hands to really focus You think about this all of the time of are we so Broad now that we're not actually learning anything, you know, the one of the things that Vic always said was that You know, there wasn't a lot to do but you know the focus and then Especially early on the personality type, you know Vic really thought that he could be good at anything that he did Because it was his personality his drive his initiative So if he played the trumpet, he'd be one of the better trumpet players in the world, you know So it was kind of a mindset. I think that no matter what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna be the best at it That's so interesting. Yeah, he I Don't think it's an accident. It's not one of those things where he's like I'm sure he is has a virtuosity to him but There's clearly a bunch of hard work and I'm sure we'll learn later it it will cross over into his business world, but So you mentioned I believe before we were recording though his his working with George Lawrence Stone and funny side note on that I had Barry James on here who was one of Stone's students And I'm actually taking some online lessons from him now But he learned from Vic Firth as well because it was at the Boston Conservatory Where Stone was a teacher, I believe Did am I mistaken or I think Barry said this did Stone and Vic Firth teach at the college at the same time Well, it's an interesting story because Yes, Vic studied with George Lawrence Stone and he also studied with Saul Goodman who is a Tempinist and While he was in college the principal job at the symphony opened the percussion job at the symphony opened and Instead of odd instead of auditioning as they do now both George Lawrence Stone and Saul Goodman said you need that guy and So they came and got Vic while he was still a student at the conservatory still studying with Stone It became the youngest percussionist ever of or the youngest member of the Boston Symphony Orchestra So he's only 21 when he landed that that first gig the first gig of being in the Boston Symphony. That's Wild 21 21. So one of the funny stories was Vic was still in college and he was a terrible piano player and he still had not passed his piano proficiencies and But he was also teaching at the college because as a member of the Boston Symphony you become a teacher So he was student he was teaching And he refused to take his piano proficiencies and said I just won't graduate I've already got the gig. You don't you know, I don't I don't need to degree And they said okay. Well, that's that's fine. Your your piano is good enough Yeah, seriously. Wow. That's uh and and timpani I'm actually working on another episode about me like the history of timpani because being a drum set guy I don't know anything about playing the timpani and That's something I'm excited to learn more about but it's it's very cool to uh to see it and it's it's it's totally a different world obviously than playing, you know and rock bands and stuff or session stuff that symphonic World it just takes a different uh, yeah I was talking to some of the day about Broadway drummers And he was saying it is a it is night and day From just saying you can go play in a rock band and I feel like that falls in that same world of You're reading and you're listening and you're just following along and you you you know You might hit it once or twice in a in a couple minutes, but it's very important Right and and timpani is that way I I play timpani and you know have played with a few minor symphony orchestras and played percussion and play drum set But timpani has that level of uh professionalism and musicality that because it's a lot like a a lot of symphonic playing Where you play so little that every note becomes that much more important. Yeah, so the the tuning the interpretation the You know how you're fitting within the orchestra It's an amazing thing to see and Vic was You know arguably one of the best timpanists in the history of percussion Certainly most well known even before he started playing or started making drumsticks, but um Just watching him play with the symphony as I as I first started working there and going to symphony rehearsals He was like the drum set player of the symphony They could be a little bit out of time not really cohesive But as soon as he came in the time just settled because he was so Much a fundamental part of that orchestra God that's so cool. It's it's uh It's one of those things too that you you got to put it as perspective for me of like So he was already a successful In the timpani in the musicians world a famous musician not just what became this Internationally well-known brand of you know percussion stuff like sticks and everything. So he was already an established Musician so you said that was about the age of like 21 when he was with the boston symphony orchestra then Why don't we move forward there? So so how long did he play with them that he did? Did he ever do any like jazz band playing and like on the drum set or anything like that? Well actually when he was in high school, he started his own band and he was the leader of a band He played drum set. He also played jazz vibraphone And they toured and he would gig out his band to the high schools around the main You know new england area and charge feisense. He was he was an entrepreneur when he was in high school So he had a little bit of drum set abilities, but you know primarily he was a concert percussionist I would say got it That's his thing which you know, he's He's clearly uh Yeah, he he played um Well, he started when he was 21 and he retired 50 years later. So He had a long he had a long run at the at the even while he's running his company all the way up until Um, you know, like he he decided to retire from the symphony. He was running the company and still going to rehearsals and still You know what the concerts and you'd go on a saturday night to see You know the boston symphony and you would depending on you know subs or whatever you would see vik furth plane Oh, yeah, he was uh, they used to when I was in high school and I'm I'm 58 now, but uh, they used to have these boston symphony every sunday night on television And I used to watch it because I was fascinated with vik furth the man or the vik furth the timpani player and um You know, I'd watch vik play all of this literature on tv Believe it or not. They had symphonies every sunday night. Yeah, wow I think of and and uh, you know, it's it's jumping ahead But like there's a modern drummer festival where it's God, I forget who was in it don lambardi vik furth Uh, there's a couple other people who were like the legends of Whatever and uh watching him play the timpani. It's um, it's amazing. It's just very cool. That's that's great to know he never I mean, I had no idea that he was still Uh, still doing that for so long. So then All right, so we know that basically through everything we talk about that is happening. He's still playing With the boston symphony that's that's going then What the you know, that's probably what since like the fifth he was born in the 30s and that was probably in like the 50s Yeah, early 50s. Okay, and then um so he basically he was playing a symphony and he was Very unsatisfied with the the products that he had to play with because he didn't have a lot of There weren't a lot of choices back then for drumsticks in the late 50s, so he Like hand whittled a pair of sticks Um, and actually I I have a picture of it because we found it After after he had passed and found it in his uh, crates his daughters found it cool and had his uh The original sd1 and he carved his name in them Like the the original SD ones he he would actually carve his name And uh, he he made his own products for him to play and then You know And that was when he was 25 26, you know 28 And and his students being the way students are at the boston conservatory He just wanted to buy those because obviously if they're good enough for vic then So he eventually started, uh, he got a woodturner and and I think montreal to uh to turn his first drumsticks And they'd get five paired done at a time or 10 paired done done at a time. So man that I want to ask you later on about the process To some degree and I know there's moisture and there's all this stuff, but At that point being 25 26 was he a woodworker? He sounds like he's kind of a renaissance man You know really good at just whatever he did But he is you know that stuff he is Well, I don't know that he was that you know had any any Uh talent in woodworking. I think he just he knew kind of what he wanted and he tinkered around with things or whether he he never told me whether he took another pair of sticks and and and Changed that or took a dow rod and and fashioned his own But he had a very very in tune sense of how a stick needs to balance in the hand And and so I think he played around with it based off of those two models The sd1 is kind of a general drumstick for a lot of things and then he made a st2 A bolero for softer playing and they're very much balanced towards those two very specific type of things so Yeah, I think you know, I think he was a tinkerer and then he you know started making his own timpani mallets and He just wanted things a certain way. He couldn't get it by buying somebody else's so he just said i'll make my own Yeah, really what is does does sd stand for anything? Sneer drone. Oh Okay, I hate to be uh hate to be obvious, but well, yeah, no that makes sense though And the t1 timpani mallet stands for timpani in case you're wondering Okay, I'll ask the stupid questions that other people might be uh, it might be thinking um, okay, that's really cool now What do you know what the competition was at that point? Like I don't think it would have been any brands that are really around today I mean we're Was it a deal where like you would get drumsticks that were made by like Different like like rogers would make drumsticks or ludwig would make drumsticks. Was it was that who was making them? Or um, do you know the competition? Yeah, I think there there are quite a number of you know Smaller manufacturers back then certainly ludwig made drumsticks capella Uh vader made drumsticks though. They weren't vader drumsticks back then. Yeah, and um Vic made drumsticks or he when he started it was not really You know, he would he would tour Back when orchestras toured they would they would go across the country to go around the world Every time he would go somewhere into a new city He would go to frank's drum shop in chicago or you know different drum shop And he would take his sticks and try to sell them. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I've got a I've got an invoice Uh for frank's drum shop dated january 20th 1964 where he sold frank's drum shop one general timpani mallet One staccato one would He didn't buy any drumsticks though. It was all uh timpani mallet So he he sold now he did uh one general snare drumstick two dollars and fifty cents. Boy, that's a real first order first order for First order for frank's drum shop was 25 dollars. Oh, boy Vic was on his way as a master drumstick maker Okay, so rewind just a little bit when did it go from Um Making him at home to well like when did he get incorporated as a business? This is what I love too about this is it's it's born out of necessity. It's not He's searching for there's you know, oh, I could make money doing this I can change the tip of the stick a little bit which is also a very valuable thing, you know Inventing new things, but he's really sees a problem and needs to fix it. So so when did he actually become a company? I think that um 1963 would have been the the beginning of Vic Firth as a company. I guess he just registered that I don't know that his you know, his intent was to You know dominate the the stick and mallet world or anything like that He just he was selling so he needed to incorporate and you know, so he just established the company then but he was Selling only tins of sticks. Yeah Not not hundreds No, it's so he he had a design basically he would take it to a woodturner and a woodturner would uh set up a lathe and they would Crank out as many sticks as uh, you know as he ordered And and the company just started growing a little bit at a time But a lot of that was just because Vic had a pretty high tolerance for what he was willing to accept And one of the things that he was willing to accept was That the sticks weren't warped They had to be straight and he would hand roll them Uh himself on the dining on his dining room table and any sticks that were warped. He just took out of You know took that out of his profit. So so he was kind of that first, uh, You know quality control guy, but he did it with his wife Uh when his daughters were too young to participate. Yeah, so Wow, and it's it's obviously I don't think he would have been at the problem then of like sourcing Massive amounts of wood. I'm sure he at that point probably could have you know gotten lumber or whatever from a local source whereas I'm sure it's different. No, you know, and a lot of a lot of the companies that were woodturners back then in interesting enough they had He had five different companies that were making his sticks You know as as it progressed Capella was a woodturning company Who also made drumsticks? Was one of the manufacturers of Vic sticks very early on Vader actually made Vic sticks very early on before they were the Vader company Yeah But because they turn uh, so a company in Maine, which he actually wound up buying Was called Banton and Banton was one of the first woodturners that used a stone grind to create Their their models and they made all kinds of stuff. They made The the bottle caps for the English leather aftershave. You're probably too young to remember that but um Yeah, they made uh, they made Which is kind of strange the electro luxe vacuum cleaners the real high-end vacuum cleaners had a beater Bar in a vacuum cleaner that was a piece of wood because plastic wasn't good enough back then for the high rotation high high Um temperature that it got to Because of the vacuum cleaner So they made the beater bars for all of the vacuum cleaners for electro luxe and you know the high-end vacuum cleaners And and so, you know the woodturner had business from a lot of different sources and then you know Vic Firth was just one of their customers that Said I need this and I need 25 pair and 850 pair and 800 pair Yeah, that's interesting. It's very uh I mean, that's the way it goes is you need something he because again like you said at that point He wasn't really going this is gonna be my business. I'm gonna do it. I'm a woodworker. He was just trying again, you know um He needed a supplier. So that's just the way it goes okay, um That's cool. And then so obviously I mean Man, the company's starting in 1963 technically That is right there next year drum sets Blow up we got ringo um That had to be good that had to you know more drummers are Starting to play music is changing Rock and roll is happening. Um That had to affect things a little bit and and and I'm sure it just progressed from there, right? Right, right, and that's that's when he Branched out of the symphonic, you know, I don't uh SD ones and SD twos and t ones and t twos were great, but You know drum set sticks are kind of where it's at and he started with the the maple sticks because he had a you know, he already were the SD Models were being made out of maple and then he went to hickory because obviously You know many of the drummers at the time needed sticks that would hold up So so that's when the 5a came about the 7a that you know those models Yeah, so to clarify that there was um, and I did an episode about the history of drumsticks a while back where it was um uh Where we're going through the classifications and stuff but Did vic was he the one who basically labeled it as a 5a a 7a and all that type of stuff? You know, I I talked to him about that and I think that that was pretty well established Before he started making 5a's You know and he didn't As you talk to almost anybody they don't really know the story You know a is acoustic and b is band and s is street and you know Everybody kind of knows the stories, but how they came about the five this you know, like why is it smaller numbers? Or bigger numbers for smaller sticks Yeah, uh in one but you know the opposite and another I don't I don't know any of that But I don't think that vic had anything to do with that. I think he started off by You know just the the most popular sticks Is what he started with he he did a lot of maple sticks that were you know the He would call on the wacker or the hammer or the you know Yeah, those type of things but sure if I remember correctly one story goes that it was uh bill Ludwig who kind of Popularized certain titles of names or added them to those Ludwig sticks that we were talking about So that's one theory. Um That can be you know take that everyone's listening go, you know do some research, but uh Okay, so where is this all taking place? This is in boston, correct, right and uh the company has Vic lived in boston, of course and It was separated and and they didn't actually buy the factory until The mid to late 90s this factory was always Turning wood it went from five different woodturners that I said, you know vader and capella and Banton and kingfield and and all of this uh What the difficulty was is that no one of those manufacturers because they made these huge amounts of products for other companies could Seniorly do Vic Firth So some of them were on lays the banton was the only company who had a stone grind machine So you could get a 5a from Vic Firth during that time period and they could have different shapes to them Depending on which Which place they were coming out of so that was one of Vic's big We have to we have to settle on one manufacturer and at the time banton who was also making uh pepper mills and grinding grinding pepper mills and grinding uh Rolling pins and all of that they were they were doing all of that at the time that Vic bought the company So that was the first time that they consolidated and they they started making everything in one place And then all the sticks were were stone ground instead of lathe Can you explain I think we know the other way where it would be A lathe where the stick is spinning really fast and then they would kind of like you know with whatever a piece a metal I don't know the technical terms kind of shape it The stone grinding how does that work? So yeah, the uh the back knife is you know, it's just basically a knife that goes in the uh the programmed You know shape of what you want to do Basically slides up the stick and just shears the stick with a knife um But the stone ground is a large Stone that has the impression of a stick in the profile and then a dowel rod is Uh spinning and it presses the dowel into the stone So instead of anything uh Like a lathe going across from the tip all the way to the butt Uh, you know, basically ripping the uh ripping that It basically sands it all at one time So there's two stones There's a stone for the tip side and then there's a stone for the butt side because some butts have a different shape to them Any lathe stick is always pretty much just chopped off at the end, you know, they can they can uh, yeah Kind of round it out just a little bit, but anything that's that's lathe is going to be just flat at the end But the uh the stone ground Uh You know, it's it's a much more refined process and and I believe that uh pro mark has gone to that and you know, maybe maybe a couple of others, but um, it always made a much more consistent product and and also hickory being Uh, sinuous wood that it is a back knife sometimes can rip a little bit, you know can pull a little bit of the sinuous Uh threads out of the stick, but you know, it's not too much Man, there's so many there's those like processes of I'm sure that's been that that Woodworking process was developed over a long time before drumsticks and everything, but god stuff like that you hear about it And you're like I would never have thought and I actually do think I posted a video on uh, instagram of Of your guys, it was an old video of your your process of stick making and I kind of I'm gonna have to repost it when we when we release this but of Of seeing a bunch of rocks doing like like the stone. It was something with stones doing it and um And I was thinking wow, I wonder I wonder what that process is so so now I know yeah I mean, I think the the whole process over years and years and years was just a constant Trying to make something better You know all the way through the Early early on I there's so many stories of of the the things that Vic You know started You know, what are the very first things that he started doing was pitch parrying and weight matching his sticks Uh, that was not a thing Back when he first started I he he told me the story and I think it's probably out there that um You know, he was carrying a bundle of sticks and he dropped them And he just noticed that every one of them made a different sound when they hit the floor And so he thought well, what if what if I Tried to match these pitches up, you know, then I could have sticks that actually When I hit them with both of my hands, they would sound the same And and this is a story that interesting enough the early guys that worked for Vic Actually worked at his house in the basement He would get a a delivery of you know a box of sticks from a woodturner And then they would sit on the floor of his basement and drop the sticks one at a time and and try to make a Scale out of it and then match up the sticks and then put a rubber band around it. So That was the earliest earliest, uh Pairing machine was a bunch of guys sitting on the floor of Vic's basement And and one of the guys that uh worked there told me it was it was always a special day when When uh, oh god did laundry because they would turn on the uh, the The dryer and it heated the basement. So, you know I mean that's like look at where Vic Firth is now the company like but I love hearing though that it's like You know, they're excited when the the the dryer runs to get some heat Is this the basement? I mean that's like You you forget sometimes because Vic Firth is so huge that the origins of it. Yeah One of the funny stories was that His wife nagged him and said you got to get these guys off the basement floor. This is not, you know Like that that's not that's not nice, you know So he he got uh, he tried to get a uh, a stone that he could you know, put it up on a table And he poured some concrete and the you know, the the sticks did not make a sound when you hit against concrete It just wasn't you know, just wasn't heavy enough or dense enough So he had a friend uh in Maine that had a Believe it or not, uh a tombstone shop They made tombstones for uh, particularly, you know, in the war they would they would make tombstones for soldiers And then you know, if if they didn't Pick them up or use them then he just had them in the back of his place. So Vic went and got a couple of tombstones And that was the early place where the guys finally got off the floor They set the tombstone in a in a box with some sand in it and then they they paired their Luckily the guys told me that the uh, the names were faced down. So they didn't have to look at a Yeah, I was gonna say like uh, he's like guys I got a big surprise for you. It's gonna get better. This is great. And it's like, oh, thanks, Vic. It's a Soldier man, yeah But uh, it was a big other at that point right like they were doing this enough to like it's almost just like one of those like Like like uh, there's just like a success story of a business where you know, apple computers is born in a garage like yeah, and it was uh You know, it was so small that it wasn't full-time work for any of the guys They were teachers. They were players in the boston area and they would You know, they they at least could make some money with sticks in her hand. So they they took the job, but um, so the development of the actual Machine or computer pairing It was interesting because uh, vicks daughter kelly was married to an mit professor who was kind of a computer guy Back, you know in the in the mid 80s to late 80 I think he he was over the house and he saw the guys doing this and said, you know, I can I can write a computer program to do that Like, you know, computers were so new that the mac was such a new thing that um, so he wrote the first computer program that You know got the guys away from the So it yeah, I got him cut him away from the two zone They would they would Put a stick on a scale and the computer would register the weight and then they would they would hit a piece of putty With a microphone under it and they would rotate the stick as they hit it so they could get three different pitch readings off of the stick and then the computer would Uh assign a number to it and they had a slot that went from zero to ninety nine, you know A hundred tubes and they would just start putting it all the way in from zero to ninety nine and then you hit the second Second phase and then you do the next stick and it would tell the computer would say That stick goes with number 36 And then this stick goes with number 52 and then you would pair them that way so that became the You know the industrial Computerized pitch machine. I have a friend that he said Vic paid him three cents a pair So he got really good at it and he could do his job in half a day And and make enough money. So I mean if you are good at that that'll add up Pretty quick. Um, yeah That video I was talking about where it was, you know It looked it's hard to tell the dates with like when it's on youtube But I think it was 90s like I think it had that same process where it was a guy hitting what looked like a little like You know Look like putty and then he put it in a tube. Um Did that system get used for a while? If not still being used on a larger scale Oh, they went to uh, well, you know, eventually I don't I'm not really sure but eventually uh, probably Mid to late 80 90s is when they actually develop the machine the uh, you know the conveyor Yeah, the the same basic machine that we have today Okay, so, you know, it it feeds a stick one at a time onto a onto a Slot the hammer hits it while the stick rotates it measures the uh, the the pitch Is the aggregate and then it goes down to conveyors Kicks off and then goes to the next machine which weighs it and then pairs that up. So Probably about 15 years of guys doing it. Okay What after he moved away from his uh, his basement and And got an actual shop and commerce way and Wow and denim So this obviously vik furth you think of like the perfect pair or a perfect pair this Goes along with this kind of matching And really paying attention to to that kind of stuff and pushing forward with the innovation of you know getting sticks to to match and and uh Be much more quality Checked and all that stuff. So that's yeah, and I think that was just Part of vik as the man, you know, like he just he does was not a kind of person that would accept second rate The amount of it was one of the things when I first started working there that that really struck me is the amount of sticks that they would reject That either became firewood to heat the factory, you know, they they had furnaces That that would dry the sticks and and uh kilns and all that or or would become seconds for you know Uh an off-brand, you know stick something like that, but he just wouldn't accept his name Being put on something that wasn't very good. Yeah Now you read my mind. I was gonna say, well, what do you do with all those sticks? And I think that's a good way to do it. I mean, obviously you wouldn't just Throw him away. All right. So then let me ask you while this is going on in the world of drumming Was vik furth at this point like now when I think of vik furth, it's you know in big letters vik furth I mean it is it's vik furth. It's huge What how was it going? I hope that made sense. How was it going in popularity? No, I always laugh because You know, there's a perception of a company that's it's huge. It's a you know, we and I always get it You know early on my first my first job at vik was the director of internet activities because the internet was pretty young Back then and nobody had websites You know and people would write and say is there a job in your Media department. It's like well unless I quit I had you know, no, there's not No, there's not. So, uh, you know like when people think of a huge company I mean, we were literally six of us in the Six to eight of us in the headquarters. Wow, you know that just did everything in 2000 Yeah, oh, yeah. Oh boy probably all the way up until You know 2010 we we wore a lot of hats Um, you know each one of us now they they still had their production, you know, which is Three shifts of people making the products but as far as Marketing sales, you know, there's pretty much one person for each job. Wow. It was uh, it's pretty small operation I mean, you know, it's big as it was. I was amazed too when I first When he offered me a job because I had started a website Really early on Very very early in the internet like the one of the first drum websites Called the drum club and Vic saw it and said I want I want that and and Basically offered me a job and and I'd never been to Vic Firth. I was an endorser, but um So I went to Boston and the cab pulled up to the To the company and I just went I think you've made a mistake this You know, it's just in a strip mall of other, you know, like other businesses and there's one little door and that's it That's it and you walk in and it's one little room in three offices And you know a guy that has an office under the stairs in the in the back So It was amazing. I mean it was a small very small organization and you know, we It was it's a family, you know Oh, yeah, I'm sure but when did it become in popular culture like a successful company? That's like a household name that's synonymous with with drummers like when did endorsers start to come on and and Be what we know It's really kind of hard to say a lot of drummers played Vic Sticks, you know as they did Capella and you know all the other Regal tip and you know all the other other sticks, but uh, I think gad was the first signature artist for Vic and Steve had uh, he had Yamaha for a brief amount of time made sticks in the early 80s. I'm thinking so he had played a A gretch sunny pain stick and I guess Yamaha had started their drum Company and they wanted him to play their stick. So they made him a signature stick was just kind of based off of that sunny pain stick and And I get I'm not really sure the story whether he was unhappy with the quality or you know, but uh, Vic Vic was a guy that always he loved music and he He went to jazz clubs all the time and he and he knew all the up and coming drummers And he knew Steve and you know, basically talked to him and said, what are you doing? You know, I can make your sticks for you And so that was the first signature stick for Vic And it's a great first stick Yeah, a great first stick and then the next stick was uh, harvey mason, which was actually a student of vix Harvey was uh, he was a concert percussionist and he went through the boss in conservatory and learned how to play concert percussion moved to la and You know went from playing on soundtracks to The story is is that he You know the drummer didn't show up for for a gig and somebody says is anybody know how to play drum set We need this thing and harvey said, yeah, I can do that Which of course he did and uh, you know a few years later harvey is is You know amazing drum set player and that was the second drum the signature stick. So I think it just kind of Started a little bit and then steamrolled and then you know as as what happens people start talking and say, you know You know it just becomes more and more popular Yeah, that's not uh It's clearly not on accident though. It's because the quality is there and it's uh, uh It's not an overnight success, which there are great overnight successes But it was obviously a slow burn from a passionate You know group of drummers obviously starting with Vic, but it sounds like everyone was was really passionate. Um so, um Moving forward here. I want to save time at the end because I have some uh questions from people on social media who submitted for me to ask you. Um so Let's just go ahead and move forward here. Then then obviously, um Vic is getting older and all that stuff the company's getting bigger. Um What happened then? I mean, I know you guys your practice pads are very you know, I have one They're just kind of the synonymous like the standard practice pad that everyone has um What happens then in the 90s and 2000s and beyond? Well, I think you know, it's a it's kind of a natural progression where you're Um, you know, you look at a need. I think that's the way Vic thought In the way that all of us thought, you know, his his we would have a meeting a week where everybody is just kind of an idea dump of I've got this idea and I want to do this and Vic was always the guy that You know, he he loved every everybody who worked there. He loved them and we were like You know cats we would fight all the time, you know We're all the same personality type and we would just fight each other all the time But we are all going in the same direction So he would he would have people in uh have us all in and you know, what do you see what's the need? Oh, you know like have we ever thought about making headphones? You know like exactly Yeah, or have we ever thought about making practice pads or I saw this thing that this guy was doing and I I have an idea and and so he was kind of that He encouraged ideas He never you know never really Took credit for everything. He just you know, he just wanted that progression of what's the next thing What's the next thing? He always sure it was he always felt like okay. I got to be looking out for the next thing Yeah, extremely uh innovative obviously those headphones. It's so funny. You mentioned that I kind of forgot about that Not every drummer, but most drummers in the world have some experience wearing those vikverth Headphones every studio has a pair, you know for drummers They're great. I mean those are are those a lot. Do you guys license stuff like that? Or do you make in-house? Do you like we're gonna start building headphones? Oh No, no, you know like there are some products that we oem or we get other manufacturers to make Uh, obviously we don't have the the uh capabilities of making a lot of electronics and And you know, it's just a it's a process. There are there are problems with old headphones You know, you start off and that's kind of the way it works in the industry or if you you try something the vick always had a Thing that he said to all of us is he said uh, as long as you have more successes and failures You're doing well And he never really cared whether Something we really wanted to do just completely bombed and he had many sticks and different ideas that he tried that were just Terrible, but um, you know, you don't know until you try it and no so So I think that's the uh, you know, like we have certain amount of things that we We have other manufacturers like headphones, you know, obviously but um to oem for us But uh, it's it's based off of our specifications and our design and and those type of things Yeah No, it's funny. You said like is uh in addition to my show here I record and edit a bunch of business podcasts and failure Is such a big buzz thing now where it's like, you know, if you're not failing You're not trying we have fail cake to celebrate failures. So it's very uh, very popular Yeah, I don't know if it's I don't know if it's like that as much I'm like, I want to succeed and not fail as much but but you do need to try things if you're not failing You're not trying so, um That's cool. You guys obviously do a lot of uh have have a lot more successes than than failures but uh So then bring us up to modern times here, um, obviously vik is no longer with us, um, which is, you know Terrible, but he Got to talk about an amazing life. Um, what was the kind of the end of his his time? Like and then the merger with zilgen. Yeah, um, well vik had retired from the symphony Um, I'm trying to think when that was I was there um Don't remember the exact year they retired from the symphony, but you know, basically Getting older, you know, you get aches and pains. He probably could have stayed mentally He was you know, so with it and so Energetic all the way through that he could have stayed but uh, you know, like his his favorite conductor sagy ozawa was had left and And you know, he decided it was time to retire for the symphony, but he still kept going back and playing, you know Yeah, but um, I think it got to that point where he had he had two daughters and neither one of them Really wanted to to run the company or to take the company forward Um as a family owned business and so that's when he started looking for and he entertained a lot of of, you know Perspective companies to come in and purchase the the vik birth name the zilgen family made the most perfect sense because right there in boston family run, you know, very, uh Storyed history and and everything like that. So, you know, I think we were all kind of on pins and needles when that process was happening But you know, just so so relieved and so excited when when that Took place when the purchase took place and then vik stayed on for another several years after that for the transition between Uh, the the company, you know, vik first moving into the the zilgen headquarters. So yeah, yeah And zilgen makes sticks as well that I used for a long time for for a number of years. Um That were very nice drumsticks, which obviously i'm sure in the drum in the cymbal factory They weren't actually they were being supplied by you know, someone else, which i'm assuming was associated with you guys, um Actually, it was uh, they were making sticks and I I don't know the year again But um, because it's not a vik first thing Yeah, but they they were making sticks out of the same factory that vik was making sticks out of in the banton And then they decided to get more serious about it and purchase a their own factory in alabama Which they did and they were making sticks out of alabama Uh went through a few years of just not being a high quality product And at which point You know the this was before The zilgen bought vik it vik went to uh to arm on and said what are you what are you doing or craigie and said You know, we can make those sticks for you and they would be a lot better And so vik started making the zilgen sticks from Uh Probably 2008 maybe wow, I don't know the exact year there But uh, we we were we had taken over the entire production of the the zilgen sticks Long before zilgen bought vik first. Hmm. That's interesting good way to kind of Get the relationship started and um, and you know, I'm sure they knew that they were all good people. Um, which They are from from my experience of having paul francis on the show from zilgen a great ambassador to zilgen so um All right, so then obviously moving forward there to kind of wrap up. Um, unfortunately July 26th, so this was you know close to when we're recording this there was kind of an anniversary of it. Uh vik passed away about five years ago at the age of 85 in uh 2015 Which is right very sad, but again, what a long great life Yeah, and um, you know We we actually operated for the first few years almost as separate companies even though zilgen Had purchased the company vik was now our president instead of our owner Which is kind of strange. Yeah, but um, you know, like there was a there was a long transition that I think Really really benefited all of us who worked for vik for so long and the zilgen company to To uh really meld the two companies together versus you know, okay, we bought it Boom, you're part of this and you know, you need to you need to change everything now Yeah, so so there was a really nice period of getting to know everyone getting getting you know, the the philosophies and the the ideas and how we work together the transition Couldn't have been better. Hmm. That's great. That's uh, not the case for many companies who were purchased and switched over and I mean that's so just common in in the history of Drum brands where it's like now we belong to this company and the quality just went, you know to hell and then We're You know the the the brand closes 10 years later or something like that So that's really cool that it that it worked out. Um, and it still continues to be Super high quality great stuff. Um That I use vik furth sticks and practice pad and and I have those headphones. So I'm a I'm a believer Great, you're helping pay my salary. How's that? Good. Good. Good. I need to break more sticks. Um, you do All right, so now that we're all kind of through the history of it This is something kind of fun that I think I've done once or twice before but I want to If it's okay with you mark, I want to ask you a couple questions that people have submitted So other vik furth fans are curious about a couple things And before we do that, let me say thank you to uh, don mccauley for kind of getting this Started don is obviously charlie watz drum tech And has been a very good friend of the show for a long time who connected me with Joe testa, which um, is uh, a new friend to the show. Um, and I'm just honored that these guys kind of You know Helped set this up. So this is really cool. So thank you to those guys um Now on to the questions. Are you ready for some, uh, vik furth questions from Some fans I'll do my best, you know, this is it's it's kind of the hot seat because you know, I wasn't there at the beginning I've been there for over 20 years, but uh, sure. I kind of know my way around I think you'll be all right. I I cannot guarantee every single answer is You know, yeah, no no haters out there. No, if you don't know it, we'll edit it out Okay, so this first one is from luis abbott and I might if there's any doubles well, um We'll you know put lumping together, but and you sort of answered this a little bit But what's involved in the process of designing a signature stick with an artist, which is a very great question Oh, and then actually andrew lamb asked that same question Well, it really um, it really starts with the artist, you know, it's uh, it's a conversation Uh about What they like what are the what are the products that they have used in the past that they really like What are the what are they really wanting that's different from something that they really like like a lot of times Our signature artists come out of actually their their zilt their vik furth players already And they might use one stick and they think I really like a 5a, but it just doesn't have enough leverage Or it or it feels clunky or it, you know So the process starts with total feel And what are you looking for and what's your style of playing? Are you wanting more power? Are you wanting more finesse? Are you wanting this, you know? So it starts off with a very broad sense of You know, what kind of diameter feels the best in your hands now? Let's talk about length and how much leverage that has let's talk about the taper. Do you want do you want that that rebound? Right off the symbol you want that really fast tape, you know, like a longer taper a shorter taper And then it starts getting down to the specifics of the bead itself, you know, like okay what's what type of sound do you want out of your symbols are And then, you know, frankly a lot of it comes down to do we already make that stick? You know, like we don't have any products that are the same in our catalog and you know, that's one of the kind of Things, you know, like everybody would say, okay, make me a signature stick. I want the 5a I was gonna say, you know, so like a 5a kind of feel Yeah, and you know, like I think we make probably 35a's, you know, with just A little bit here or there, you know, like and it really gets to be splitting hairs a little bit in that in that world, but You know, like it really does come down to something very unique, you know So when we were designing The bini grab and I say we or stick designers when they're designing, you know, it comes down to bini and You know, he wants this but maybe this but maybe this and so you send him five different variations And he plays with them and you know, he goes back and forth and goes, I like that one But I like this one better But if you could just do, you know, so very rarely does a An artist know exactly what they want as far as dimensions and the amount of taper and the You know, guys are just not built like that. They're built for Feeling a drumstick. So you have to go off of that versus Trying to Frankenstein That's what we always call it Frankensteining a drumstick You can't I like the 5a with the neck of a 3a with a tip of a 5b, you know That just produces an awful drumstick every single time. Yeah, so So it always has to start with a feel conversation Yeah less specific more just, I mean, like you said, you start broad and then you work down to prototyping and all that stuff So, um, right great answer. Good start. Um So josh Kenuski, um, who I've talked to before Also a young father. We've talked about that before He said and you answered this so he said who was the first drummer to be endorsed with a custom stick Which you said was steve gad, correct? Correct. Yeah, okay. So we're ahead of the game here Um, and then we have a few people Sergio Aragwin and thomas collard Both asked what happened to the vic furth, uh, culinary products and I'm assuming you said banton was already making grinders and peppermills and stuff that had to be associated with that, right? Right, right. They they made those products and and they were made under the banton name Uh, when when vic bought the factory, uh, bought banton I think we continued to produce the banton Name, but they had actually gone bankrupt. So we had to pull the You know pull the name off of banton because they were being sold in culinary stores around the world and things like that vic said And he was always really kind of funny. He goes, I you know, a lot of There's a lot more people who eat than play drums. So, you know, I think we'll keep it And he really loved that world of being in the, you know, like the celebrity chef like we had mario batali, you know Back in the the day when that was a household name and people knew that we had several celebrity chefs that had signature peppermills and you know products Really really love that it ultimately came down to, um You know after zildjian had bought the company We had grown so large with the with the vic furth brand that there was literally no room in the factory to keep up with our drumstick production and it was kind of a distraction and it was a part of the factory they needed and They were making money at it doing Fairly well, but not big enough to spin it off into its own thing. So that what that decision was made to You know what let's focus on percussion Yeah, it's a sad day when the the last peppermill left the the vic furth factory and I got about five or six of them. I I went and like, you know, grab grab what I could before it was gone. So yeah, they're really nice I've looked all right. Oh, they're really nice. They're they're great. All right. Next question So andrew messina aka chocolate milk on instagram asked When did the 5a become your most popular stick? Oh, I I don't have the answer to that Okay, but I do know that Just as a you know, on a side we sell more 5a's than almost any other product that we make and at the The amount of sales that we have over 5a's are larger than most other drumstick companies Wow It is it is a no, you know, like there is no other stick that is the you know chocolate milk of The drumstick world than the 5a. There you go. That hopefully that answers your question there chocolate milk Okay, so this next one. I actually don't have a name for it's not in their account But the ink is here is the username said How does the company maintain sustainable practice of the wood supply? Which is a very good question Well, it's actually It's it's a question born out of another marketing campaign But the wood The wood suppliers we use wood suppliers from western tennessee And it's part of the natural the the national forestry foundation And it is a sustainable Uh, it's a sustainable process You know, obviously they're not doing deforestation in in tennessee because then they don't have any You know, like they plant trees for every tree they harvest so it's not a You know, we do a lot of things in our environmental You know, the biggest thing is the the wastewater and the in the sawdust and the you know the the different parts of the manufacturing process that Uh, that we reclaim But as far as growing trees for every drumstick You don't really have to do that because that's part of that that company and we do not own our own um Our own lumber facility or you know That's got it. They make they make uh wood for furniture and other really large industries. Sure Yeah, no, I'm glad that you're not like, uh, you know, we go into the rainforest in, uh, Costa Rica and we just burn it all down and uh Yeah, I mean we we do You know, like there is decisions to be made on what type of wood to use and you know We would never use a rosewood or a or a type of wood that was endangered, you know Of course. Yeah, I could I mean, it's just safe to assume that Before I you even answered that that you guys see them always vary on the up and up, but um But those are good questions to ask like there's like the you know Soda companies that are dumping stuff and polluting water for entire countries. So it's right once you get big enough Those do become problems. Um And then the very last question is ben from big fat snare drum, um asked Why won't you endorse him? So I think that might be a personal question where you guys can talk about that later Ben's a funny guy. I just wanted to include that. No, we love ben. We love big fat snare drum too. Yeah Well, it is interesting because we get that question all of the time and endorsements You know, it's a it's a very difficult thing because uh, especially now that There are so many great drummers and there's so many avenues for people to play Uh, you know back in steve gad's time, you know, if you didn't play at the baked potato, then You know, you're not really worthy of being an endorser. So it's fairly easy to say You are playing you are, you know, now you could have an instagram star that may or may not Really be able to play the drums, you know So it it really gets difficult and there's so many players we would love to accept Everybody Because we want everybody playing our products, especially those people who love our products, but At the same time you got to sell some wood, you know Yeah, they need to be out. I mean that's I completely get it and It makes perfect sense where obviously I'm sure you guys get I'm sure you field many emails of hey I'm I'm a young drummer and I'm playing X amount of gigs and I'm doing all this but um Now can I just ask as a guy who's you know never has been and probably never will be endorsed by a drumstick company like if you're a major Drummer, I mean, let's say you're steve gad. Does he get like a regular package of like here's your drumsticks Here's your drumsticks for the month. Like how does that usually work if you're a if you're a A level top dog drummer Yeah, and and you just described it a level b level, you know, like there there are different levels to our You know what we what we have Obviously steve gets as many sticks as he wants and Obviously he gets the royalty off of any signature product that we sell Now we we do not pay anybody to play our sticks. So even if it's a player who Who doesn't have a signature stick, but they're endorsed by the company They are not getting a paycheck from us to Represent the company or to speak on our behalf or you know, any that kind of thing doesn't happen You know, we're not we're not in the Nike world of that But uh, you know, it it depends on the level of players and what we think the reach is going to be and I'm speaking A little bit for their artist relations department, which they might have a different Uh way of putting it but uh, you know, there is an allotment that a lot of guys get The guys and girls will get an allotment of you know, X number of sticks depending on the tour that they're on You know, if you're playing arenas, you might get a lot of sticks if you're if you're Playing the jazz clubs and you know, you might go through a pair of sticks A month, you know, like it's kind of based off of the guy and the style and you know Like in the need because guys are not, you know, nobody takes advantage of a relationship that you have And what those guys also get is that that relationship of calling in and saying I need Oh, I need a high and heavy pitch. I I want them at this pitch. I want them at this You know this weight and you know, like we'll we'll pick very specific sticks for you know, higher level guys So that they can always reach in their bag and have exactly the stick that they want So there's there's benefits to the to the endorsement relationship And not all of it's voluntary at all got it. Well Really good to know because sometimes you just think You don't know what to think with like some of the major endorsements and all that stuff But in a nutshell, you guys keep your players Stocked with sticks so they never go, you know, yeah And we have a lot of players that buy sticks from us, you know, they're they're buying You know, they might get a reduced price from us But what they're buying is that relationship and and that that customization of either picking sticks or we You know, somebody might play a 5a, but they want their name or their signature on the 5a So that, you know, they can sell them in the merch stands or whatever But so we do a lot a lot of that type of thing Yeah, I have a friend Aaron Roy who plays Vic Firth and he plays in a ton of bands Like, you know, he's from Cincinnati, but he plays all over and I think he does that I think he has signature sticks that are I would imagine are along that same line of You know, exactly what you just described. So Sure, cool. Well, Mark, that was fun. I gotta do that more on the show and just ask people questions and get some other Insights from people. So thank you to everyone who submitted questions. That was great. I posted that about two hours before the interview So I'm glad we got that was a pretty The right number of questions. I think So that was great Well, Mark, um, usually I say where can people find you? But obviously I think people can just go to vikfirth.com And then if you have anywhere else you want people to be able to find you personally I mean, I guess now is the time to let us know, you know, what you're up to and Are you playing in any bands or anything? Uh, I don't I have this day gig that Yeah, me too. If you heard about No, I I have a actually personally I have a publishing company that I've written several books that is is a big thing In the in the scholastic or the concert world In a drum set book with stanton moor if anybody wants to check that out fresh approach to drum set So, um, I am in charge of all education for zilgen and vikfirth. So if you see anything in the You know in the vikfirth rudiments or web rhythms or you know, all of that stuff and now we're really My transition into the zilgen education role was only in the last year So we're really getting started with a lot of stuff going on in the zilgen education world So you can find me There zilgen.com vikfirth.com man, both great companies. Um, who have been very, you know Helpful to me by coming on the show and helping to share their story to people who listen. So Yeah, mark. Thanks so much for being here And uh, I hope to see you someday at one of the drum shows doing the all the educational stuff Well, I'm so excited about getting back to a drum show. I never thought I would miss traveling to a drum show, but Yeah, my gosh. Yeah, maybe next year Yep. All right. Thanks mark. Thank you so much for having me If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history And please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning This is a gwin sound podcast