 I'll record it. This is the Neobooks call on Monday, number 27, 2023. Klaus is in transit from San Francisco back to Bend. And we're catching up on Neobooks and such. And Klaus, go ahead. Your image has frozen, so you may actually be out of reach. There we go, you're back. Yeah, why don't I turn my camera off? That will probably help. Yeah, better. Yeah, so even with people that I'm partnered with on LinkedIn, there are ideas floating to change into quasi-generative practices that are not really restoring the soil. And these are basically attempts to maintain monocoque practices with some adjustments. And that's just not going to work. And I think one item that came out involved on is that the challenge for us is really to restore the soil so that the soil restores the hydrologic cycles. So that turned out to be the core conclusion that came out of the AI-driven volume. So I'm pondering how to express this in volume two ways that is accepted. And the other thing I'm really wanting to focus on is to make this more digestible and more positive. Because there are constructive ways to engage. And there can be presented in ways that are fun and participatory and actionable and so on. And that's really what I wanted to do, is to create maybe a series of letters, create a blog. And I started working on Substack to find a way to publish. Now these things maybe come out once a week or once every other week with an article that sort of builds up towards what we saw in the storm. Now you're breaking up on us too much to understand Klaus. I got you until the last eight words and then you broke up a bunch. Rick Klaus is driving with family from San Francisco back up to Ben. So he's on the road swimming in. Do you want to try that last little bit again, Klaus? We may have lost Klaus altogether. And the comments I had I wanted Klaus to hear. So I'll make sure that we got his connection back when we go. Rick, how's it going? It's going well. Going well, thank you. We have indeed lost Klaus from the call. Hopefully he'll be back. Good. Any news on your front? I've been trying to think. Actually, I just came from a Zoom call this morning. And it was testing out a new platform, which I'd never heard of before. I think it says Go Brunch or something. Let me see if I can find it. And they did a testing of it. And the idea was to try and create more of a learning community, a little bit much more adaptable than Zoom, where you could have continuous community. Anyway, I'm just looking around for what's going to be the next new thing that really is designed for creating learning communities. Zoom isn't, from my point of view. But it doesn't have a community building. So one of the things I've been fascinated with is how to, when you have a live event, how do you have follow-up where you have asynchronous communications about it? And actually, I've joined this group on civil discourse. And I don't think it's so civil, but that doesn't matter. And they're sorting out the ground rules. And I've been very proactive on that. And I've actually been calling out people on their false assumptions and projections when they respond to me. And I try and do it with a sense of equanimity, because when people become overreactive, then they can start firing off all sorts of stuff. But it's not out of hand, it's just normal. But if we don't have the language to call people out when their amygdala brains are taking over the neocortical ones, then we get locked into this emotional quagmire of how to navigate these issues. So, and then I shared an updated sub-stat article on how to co-create generated dialogues and facilitate civil discourse at a group last night. And I was just blown away by some of the reactions that I got from people. And it was so informative because you just assume that people share your point of view and until you get somebody says, well, equity is all about taking things away from the deserving and giving it to the undeserved, those sort of tropes. And I had to call the guy out on it. I said, that's a trope. And so how can we have more engaging, authentic conversations with Kendra in such a way that we can actually see whether people are willing to shift some of their points of view or not? I don't try and convince anybody of anything. I just say, this is what it is. What do you think? Once you get into the persuasion game, I think you've lost. And I much prefer to think as influence is not as a proactive outward thing, but something you attract people to, which is different. And so it calls for different strategies. Anyway, that's just a few musings. From the equity muse. Exactly. Thanks, Rick. That's really interesting. And you kicked up a whole mess of thoughts, including a bunch of conversations Pete and I have had over many a year over what is the better platform that has sync plus async plus this plus that plus note taking plus shared ideas, plus wiki dynamics, et cetera. So you're in familiar territory for us, like looking around for what's going to work there. And Pete, if you want to jump in on that, please do now. Rick, what platform were you on? I just see if I can find it actually. You said go brunch, but I don't know if that's a thing, but yeah. And there's, there've been many. Actually, if you go brunch, it's a, yeah. Go brunch.com or what? Yeah. Get creative and collaborate with go brunch, the ultimate virtual office and community platform for creators and startups. Well, there it is. Yeah. This was a demo and it was a bit, people, it's like anything you start off when the first time people were just stumbling over the usual sort of things. And it wasn't really tested, but I was asking them, well, what do you think the added benefits are of it? And they only described it to you, but it was enough for me to say, I want to look into that a little bit. So Pete, you're far more technological than I am and you are, Jerry. So I'd be loved to get your opinion on it. And then this group, they're going to host a session where they're going to try and use it. They're trying to use Zoom and go brunch at the same time. And it got so confusing for people. It was, you know, you either have to use one or the other. We have a friend named Lucas Chaffee who created something called Kiko Chat that wraps some persistent objects around Zoom. And he did this kind of early pandemic and offered it up to a lot of communities trying to have discussions. I know that Doc Searle still uses it. It doesn't look very elegant. He doesn't have a lot of UI experience or staffing or resources, but it does its job reasonably well and it fixes a couple of problems of the kinds that you're thinking about. Back to you in the booth, Pete. I, well, speaking of community, I went to compare to kind of mighty networks, just discourse, you know, that flavor, but it's go brunch is more of a video platform. And so I have to swap over to remember the video kinds of things that we've looked at. Yeah. I'm putting a link to Kiko Chat in the chat for you, Rick. Okay. And this is a perennial problem and there's a whole bunch of things that showed up during pandemic that had a virtual space where avatars could float around and meet each other in different rooms and move around. I never had a great experience in any of those, but I collect a whole bunch of these. So there's like lots of them out there. None of which. Do you remember one of the names, Jay? Sure. Let me actually try to remember the name of the one in particular that got big during, well, because I've had good experiences with the one that SF Meetup use, SF D-Web uses. So here's virtual event platforms. Do you recognize which one? The circles was in there, but it's not the one I'm thinking about. Remo was interesting. Kiko Chat is under this thing. Then there are webinar, then there are multi-party video conferencing, video chat services. Here's Jitsie and Big Blue Button and a couple of those. I'm still not seeing the one. It was a group town, group, yeah, something town. Yeah. I want to say town. I'm looking for the one. Online town there, someone down there. Right in this batch here? No. Great, go all the way to the bottom there. Second to the bottom up. It says Rabbi died and then above it, it says online town. Oh, this one, yeah, that's not it. Thank you. That's not the one, but it's gather town. Gather town, thank you. And so let's see. I don't know if you've got it listed there. Another one called Sutra. I don't know if you have Sutra. Why do I not have gather town in here? Is it spelled that way, Pete? Sorry, not looking at your screen. Yeah, it's just one word. Gather town, no space. I will look it up. Sutra, I know the founder of, not who is, go ahead. Yeah, here's Lawrence and his wife, Lawrence Sell and his wife Natasha. Yeah, I know them as well. And I have that under power tools for discourse where it shows a whole bunch of other stuff. It's gather downtown. Gather downtown, that makes sense. I was like, I'm pretty certain I have it in my brain. I still am not hitting it. That's weird. I will find it and then try to add it and see if it finds it. And then Remo is another one that's similar to that. Yep, and I had Remo in there. Gather town is the one that I was specifically thinking of. And I've had good experiences with gather town, even though it's a darky 1980s avatar thing, it still works. Yeah, interesting. There was a, yeah, there was a virtual platform long ago, like 92, 93, called On Live. And, and they had a server called On Live Talker that was really cool. It was the first thing I'd ever seen where as you got closer to avatars, they had these huge lip syncing avatar heads with very low polygons. So nothing that looked exactly like a person, but you would pick an avatar head and walk around in this space, which was uninteresting entirely. But if you got close to people, their volume would go up and down. And the magic behind the platform was that they had figured out a compression scheme optimized for multi-party calls like that. So that all they had to do was, they didn't need a big multiplexer and a lot of processor power to do that, they had optimized the algorithm to do that. And it was, I thought it was really clever and it just disappeared from the world. But I think this has some relevance to Nia Books because the Nia Books is a platform. And the question is, where do you, I mean, I'm much more interested in the quality of the learning community and the experience that people have of collaborative learning and transformational learning. And I just haven't, I don't know where to go brunches worthwhile experimenting with and hosting one event just to see whether, I think you need two. One is just to get people oriented to, and I think they tried to do too much on the Zoom call rather than thinking they're gonna pull it off. They should have just focused on, okay, let's just see if we can get everyone on and do this, this, and this. And then, okay, now that we know how to play, let's come back and play a game, which they actually did. They're gonna set up another session. So I think they just stretched it a little bit too far for people, but that could have been artifactual because people were trying to use Zoom and this platform at the same time. Anytime you start coordinating like Miro plus Zoom, that's a stretch for a lot of people. Oh, it is. And we tried that a bunch. Now, there's modes in which your video can show up sort of next to the drawing board, which I think works a little better. But nobody's figured this out. Yeah, I agree. Now I've remembered that I think complexity of entries is gathered too, and they've used it really successfully. Cool. It's interesting, I'll have to look more at GoBrunge. There's an interesting thing between being in community synchronously and then maintaining that asynchronously between synchronous sessions. And communities do that with various tools and various levels of effectiveness. Discord is kind of, for me, the state of the art of that right now because it has live capacities and it has channels and so forth. I'm not thrilled with Discord servers. There's too many of them, they're very chaotic, but they do a nice job of blending sync and async and community and a bunch of other stuff like that. I, the community, I'm on like 15 Discord servers and one of them does synchronous sessions but they do it in Google Meet. Oh, interesting. So they don't even use the Discord features. Klaus, you've been really patient in coming back on with the call and off the call and you'd like to jump in. So please do. And then let's switch back to your topic for a bit so that while we have you, we can sort of wrap that up. I actually have three bars for the moment, hopefully for the last 10 minutes. Yeah, no, I wanted to ask, where is the status of Substack now? What did we, I was reading last minutes, didn't last minutes, reading minutes, but it wasn't clear where you want to go with this. What have you done? So that was actually where I was going to go once we had all kind of checked in a bit. Pete created a Substack publication for us, which is I think just called open or something like that, but basically it's an OGM Substack for the purposes of NeoBooks. And then he pushed a test post through it just to see how it worked and so we could all see it when we received it, which worked fine. And it's a test post that he will just delete when we get sort of more posts in. And then my assignment for this week was to create an intro to NeoBooks post that would be the first of hopefully many that will start posting together through this one Substack account. And I've got a better, I've got a, I think nearly finished draft of the text, but I haven't poured it into the Substack yet. And I was looking at the Substack sort of default banner and stuff like that. We probably have to do a little bit of work configuring Substack so that it looks the way we want it to look and does the things we want it to do. But we're kind of at that place right now, which means as you refine the thoughts that you were just thinking about that you were just telling us about, as those things materialize into blog posts, you could publish them through the same Substack. Yeah, I was saying before I'm the overwalking office that I would like to create something more user-friendly because the language in the first NeoPog is too stiff. You know, it doesn't really, it doesn't have a heart, is what I mean to say. So there are some writers really engage with the sense of humor and personal risk. And I have to find a way to do that, which is not something I do naturally. But I would really like to find ways to engage more general public people who are not familiar with the relationship of food and agriculture or your personal consumption of biases in the impact they have on farmers and which innovation it's from. So for that, I wanted to create kind of a slender that is more friendly and upbeat and an action number. So a couple of suggestions. One is, so don't give up on the first NeoBook that you've got, don't think you have to go write something new and different. If you like the logical thread of what you've got in that NeoBook, we could sort of upgrade any and all of the nuggets that can pose the NeoBook and you could make them more funnier. And since ChatGPT is your writing partner anyway, you can turn up the humor level on ChatGPT and ask him or her it to use more puns or to use more, whatever you want. You can throw it in and it's shocking how nicely it complies in different ways. So you could just take a swing at that and say, hey, I'd like this to be written in a more accessible way with some humor. See what ChatGPT comes up. And you should say that in the last Zoom call I just did, somebody took the blog post and said, gave instructions and I'll just give you the first two paragraphs of there but it's just very interesting how it, I don't know what the prompts were but I thought it was quite clever about how it was trying to condense it into something that was, and it's got a use, using soil metaphors and gardening metaphors. So it's really, you know, I don't know what he did. But I still can say, yep, I know. And that's so close. I don't, I mean, Pete, maybe you know more about how to do this, or maybe you Jerry but there are ways in which you can change the style of the presentation to make it more accessible to different audiences, depending upon their metaphorical preferences. Right? Yeah, I think several once said it, but it just didn't come out the way I feel good about it now to have a language that sort of connects with people that I know, the way they would engage and just, but I'll try, I mean, I'll keep going with it. And so, so my daughter is helping me set up a website. Indeed, I have this domain for thought. And I want to elaborate on that a little bit and put an AI section into that, where I can then link the new books in a blog that collects these kinds of subjects. But I don't want to, I don't want to do something different from what you have, you know, I mean, I don't want to diminish what they're doing with the GMD project. Sounds cool, sounds complimentary. Go ahead, Pete. I wouldn't worry too much about diminishing. It doesn't matter, I don't think. Yeah. And in fact, actually, I kind of, one of the things I would like us to think through is this is gonna sound weird, but using Ghost and Substack together, we ended up having, you know, we made a binary choice and I don't think we needed to do that. I think it makes sense to have potentially both. So Substack for Reach and Ghost for Permanence on our own domain. Well, so I'm basically still writing the post in Obsidian, pushing it to GitHub for Permanence. And my goal is then to have the Substack version of it be, hey, look over here for a mainstream media use of this particular nugget, but the nugget, so the post is gonna point back to the nugget and the nugget is gonna point to a publication of this nugget over there in Substack. So do we then still need Ghost? Yes and no, or no and yes. I guess my thought there is to take advantage of Substack because they do the distribution reach thing, but also instead of just living in their environment, I think the thing to do is to use that as a platform that helps build our own domain basically. So you're entirely right, Jerry. Pointing it doesn't, theoretically it doesn't matter too much whether or not it's massive wiki or Ghost. The thing that would be nice, the thing that I'm imagining is you send out a Substack, it says, this was originally posted on openglobalmind.com, whatever, right? Read article there. So every time you push a Substack thing, you're also siphoning a little bit off to maintain your own domain. So then that domain probably wants to be to look more like a blog than a massive wiki, I think. But a massive wiki could easily look like a blog. A massive wiki could easily look like a blog if you build it that way. Well, so a massive wiki can also turn into a wiki or it can turn into an impenetrable front page or whatever. So then I think it makes sense. I like that NeoBooks is nested within the OGM wiki, but then NeoBooks can't easily be a good blog inside the OGM wiki, I think. So just to catch Rick and Closetop in case you weren't in those conversations, which I'm not sure you were. So a massive wiki is Pete's project of building something that is a wiki and more using markdown files on GitHub to get version control and community editing and shareability and some audience flow and all that. One of the experiments that we'd like to get some funding to code is basically weblog code for massive wiki. Pete, fix what I'm saying please as I go, but by which I mean a weblog is just a collection of nuggets which are markdown files that live somewhere on that repo or vault. And they're just organized by a chronology and they have interstitial matter so that they look like a blog post. So you could have the retweet, whatever, whatever, a comment section maybe, a header and a date and all that kind of stuff. But the weblog widget in massive wiki would say, hey, when you wanna create a weblog, create a page, call it a weblog and then tell me what tag to collect up from all the pages in this namespace or some other namespace to call it a blog. And then when it presents as a weblog, it's just taking any post anywhere in any document that's in that vault that has the hashtag Pete's blog would then get rolled up into Pete's blog and sequenced chronologically as a weblog. And you could tag things up, you could do whatever else, but now each post in the blog is actually a wiki page and that's secret sauce because now each blog post gets all the benefits of wiki communal editing, et cetera, et cetera. Does that make sense? Makes sense to me. Yeah, you're going to compliment charity. Yep. And there's a detail on top of that which is that infrastructure would be useful to take a blog that lives inside OGM wiki. OGM wiki has a lot of different kinds of articles and not much navigation. That infrastructure would help like present a blog nicely out of OGM wiki. A different thing we could do without the technology overhead is to have a separate mass of wiki, that's just the blog and you can maintain most of that structure just by hand. But that sort of defeats some of the purposes. Yeah, it does. Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to figure out how to make massive wiki have a large collection of nuggets that are repurposed for different reasons and that then present differently in the appropriate context. So, and then to use the mycelium metaphor, to me, each of those presentations is a mushroom sprouting from the mycelial substrate. But the important thing is not to carve out the mycelium and to make one be the wiki. That to me like breaks the whole model in some sense. It does, yeah. It may simplify maintenance, but it doesn't. No, it gives, the reason I mentioned it is time to market. Actually, not. Okay, I'm happy to be the crash test dummy for all this stuff and just like keep going with OGM wiki as the main basis for a lot of these things. And that's what I'm writing with that assumption right now. Yeah. That we're sort of heading in that direction. So then it would be nice to resource some technology stuff to make all that happen. Exactly. I love sharing. Five bucks going off here. My favorite, of course, is the laser light show. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. So for my particular material, the big thing that came out of the volume model is that the crux of the matter really is the soil microbiome which determines that the capacity of the soil to absorb the cold water, which in turn drives the hydrologic cycle which is also called a small water cycle in local areas. And the recognition, the realization that millions of acres of soil have been depleted with chemical forms of agriculture, tilling chemicals, destroying the soil microbiome causing large fee areas of test certification, which changed the weather patterns in the entire regions and if globally because of buildings of acres that have been deteriorated. That is a major curveball to the industry that is based on monochrome practices and doesn't really know how to get around this because if you want to get into regenerative practices that means that we have to now rotate crops, we have to adapt crops to the bio regions that's on its own, which breaks apart the entire supply chain as it's currently conceived. So it's now, and surprisingly, I mean, not surprisingly, I mean, you would anticipate that the recognition of something like this would spurn changes, you know, that because it is like an existential issue. This is not, I mean, this is not a nice change, but you know, shouldn't we do this? No, I mean, this is truly existential. And Al and Savory has been propagating this forever. He's been reading very, very, then, now shut down and all that. So, so, you're starting to break up on us, Klaus. Yeah, we can't, at this point, you've broken up enough that we're not understanding. It's better now, go ahead. Okay, should I wait for a moment? You now sound better, go ahead. The industry is pushing, the industry is waiting to see I carbon intensity index, which is completely ridiculous because it maintains, it creates slightly movements in carbon retention in the soil, but it's non-permanent carbon, it's non-organic carbon, and it doesn't help the soil, might put my own, but it has this sort of benefit that the industry wants to reward, and in fact, now the bio-computer on the entire carbon intensity index. And so, to counter that, that is an information campaign that penetrates that and I wonder how many issues like this happen in the energy sector, I mean, everywhere you look really, also this COP28, amazingly, I mean, it's being boycotted by Regeneration International now COP28 because what they're doing is just counter to, it's finding reasons to perpetuate monocoque practices is basically what it's down to. So that's sort of my volume too, wanting to lead from the future as it emerges stepping into the future, that's where my mind is aiming at to define how can you explain this in ways that pushes through and penetrates and encounters this kind of misinformation. So I just wanted to mention this, this is sort of where I'm leading this volume to discussion. So if I may, a couple of thoughts on exactly what you're saying, Klaus. One of the things that's very frustrating to me is that sort of extremely popular things like cap and trade and carbon capture are from the point of view of trying to protect the earth, stupid, terrible things because they're basically ways of not actually taking action that heals anything, no soil is made better, they're ways of continuing to pollute while trading away your responsibilities or like hoping somebody else sucks up more of the carbon. And so I really don't like those initiatives. I find that those are avoidance tactics which is a little bit kind of what you were just saying. And you said a little earlier, you're trying to switch to the positive and not have something that is a rant or I'm sort of putting the word rant on what you said. But I think there's a really good moment because COP28 is just about to start, there's a really good moment to write a very strong piece that says, any activity that doesn't actually improve soil health should be questioned and should be like, I don't even know what the strong way to say it is because some effort to help is probably a good effort. But if soil fertility is so central and has so many good payoffs, like the multiple benefits of soil, of improved soil fertility from water capture to community, forming community to food creation, et cetera, et cetera. Like it's insane, it's really crazy. So I think Klaus, if you wanted to write just a blog post that is very strong-minded about something like that, I'd be happy to collaborate with you and we could put it through the sub-stack and you could point to it and use it in this next coming week because we have the sub-stack ready to go. You just need to start that piece and then I'd be happy to help you polish it and get it out because I feel strongly about that. Now, when you started, when you sent leading from the emergent future and the first thing was a profile of Puritim Sorokin, I was really confused. I was just thrown. I did not get a sense of urgency or even focus from what you were trying to write there. So I'm not sure that your beginning of your second piece is doing what you wanted to do yet because I looked at it and I was like confused. And I get that Sorokin probably has some really, really important concepts to look at, but you needed to maybe back into them or present them later, but that didn't feel to me like it was serving you at the moment yet. Yeah. I mean, this is pretty much like with volume one, but I had apparently three books and it became necessary to explain how they are connected. And so with Sorokin, there's this transition from a sensate society into a, what is it called, not theological, but... Ideational, integral and sensate. Yeah, into ideational. But that whole framework is a null operator for me trying to build your argument because the moment I start trying to figure out which one is a sensate, which one is ideational, I was lost. Yeah, yeah. I get that the way I'm going with it is that we basically have lost our connection to the, to nature, to the biosphere, which has been the ideational form of thinking. So every major religion is really focused on what is defined as God, but particularly Buddhism. It's really the world around you, the connection to life. And in a sensate culture, these are externalities, right? The nature is a resource that's being used. Whereas in an ideational culture, the environment is part of us, we are part of it. And so that's a sensate materialistic culture, right? The spiritual culture. So we need to find a transition and this is the integrated, or the integrated society where, yes, you have the materialistic component, but you're also responsible to the spiritual aspects of life. So the integral idealistic culture is the mix of the two. So that's sort of where I was going, but it's like we need to find a way to return to the spiritual aspect of life because we're killing ourselves. And we don't want to be going into the other extreme because that doesn't really work either. So we need to find a way to where we have our materialistic needs and impulses aligned with the needs of living and nominees around us. Does that make more sense? So in previous, I think OGM calls, I'm not sure any of these calls or even some of our other breakouts, but I think I've talked about how I find that the re-sacralization of the world is really important, that we've managed to make everything just an object and just a raw input and between capitalism and individualism and the objectification of everything, we've managed to make it so that nobody cares about the things that they're doing to the earth and to each other. So I talk a bunch about re-sacralization and I only now from your explanation understood that Sorokin is likely saying something very similar to that. And that his integral culture is in fact sort of the material plus the spiritual sort of blended, but I did not get that whatsoever until your explanation right now. And I could be wrong. Yeah, and then particularly important is Sorokin's warning that the transition phase is full of risk and danger because the sensation of the world is very different old culture is hanging on to because you have and this when you think about the whole story talking about how deeply embedded that the given power structures really are and how difficult they are to enlarge in what we're seeing right now. So that we are in a transition phase where there is great risk and danger for violence. So this is sort of why Sorokin and into the discussion. I hope, keep left. Thank you. I had keep left. Love that. Cool, thanks for the explanation class. That makes a lot of sense. Any comments, Rick Pete? Maybe a little bit of a tension, but one thing that I'm hearing is how can you manage content more agilely and use it more effectively? That's just a sort of brief summary of it. But to me, I want to go back to the process and that is, well, if class does do this, what are you going to do to promote it, get engagement? Because it's just a fire hydrant of stuff out there. And so it really requires a marketing mindset to think, well, how can you invoke engagement and build community? And I think it starts within your own group, within this own group. How well are people doing this? And this is where using this time as a way of gathering more than the four of us, but actually, maybe every other week, there is a feature, somebody has written something in advance, people looked at it and actually live it and see whether you can sort of cultivate a mycelium network where people are learning from each other. I mean, to me, that's the challenge. I mean, that's the result. So a couple of things. Back in the day when social media was young and innocent, there were these things called thunderclaps where a group of people would come together and share their social media accounts and then they would drop something into the group and say, hey, let's everybody retweet, post, whatever comment on like this thing right now. So we have an OGM community where some people might be interested in doing that. Substack creates a little bit of natural traffic because one of the reasons to use Substack is that there's a bunch of people looking through Substacks for what to subscribe to or what to read. So that's one reason why we're over there at this point. So if we did those two things, that would be great. Pete has talked about SEO, which I'm loathe to sort of spend a lot of cycles on, but if somebody else wanted to do that, I'd be thrilled. But I'm trying to figure out what is the organic way we can build connections and following an audience rather than the inorganic manufactured way. And also Klaus has a whole bunch of people that he's been sending individual emails to and in contact with. If he had a place to point to a post that is post published and looks like a real article, whether it's on LinkedIn or Substack or whatever, that would help him. And then we can kind of echo that and fill in more. Pete, take it away. Thanks both. Rick, I completely agree that promotion is critical. You know, all this work is not gonna matter too much if we don't get the word out. Jerry, and I don't wanna be over-associated with SEO. I'm not really interested in SEO, but actually the reason I mentioned SEO when I did was somebody else had mentioned timing posts on LinkedIn, for instance, there's a bunch of mechanical things that you do to get better reach, better distribution. And if you do them, you get better reach and better distribution. SEO is one of those things. It can certainly be used for evil, but I was actually also kind of making the point that whenever you're trying to, whenever you're, I didn't really wanna talk about this, but maybe I am a little bit, whenever you're gaming an algorithm, whenever you're going to LinkedIn and posting differently than you would just post, you're manipulating yourself, you're trying to manipulate the algorithm, you're trying to live within the algorithm to get better reach. So the whole thing is really problematic for me, not just SEO, but even things like just mechanically optimizing your posting schedule. Good change in optimization. Yeah. So, and yet we also find ourselves in a world like Rick said, with a firehose of information, nobody sees anything unless you work the system a little bit. So I think it's a reality that I kind of have to learn to live with and that we have to work better. Where I wanted to go was more to the point that I think a couple of things, I think Rick is entirely right that we need to do more that to be read, new books have to have more promotion. I also wanted to make the point that for me, my involvement in new books, I kind of have the bandwidth, I would love to spend all my time here and do everything in new books. My bandwidth is such that I can work on the process of new books, project management, publishing process, technology for publishing, technology for moving things from raw resources, Microsoft Word or Google Docs or whatever, to intermediate formats like HTML and Markdown and export formats like eBooks and Kindles and I can do a lot of that stuff. I don't have a lot of time for writing content and I don't have a lot of time for promoting content. So I can imagine, I like Rick's idea, I don't know who would attend, but I like Rick's idea of regularly having sessions where people are, in my parlance, these are kind of the editing people, editorial people, the editorial team would be digesting books, looking at them going, okay, and then let's think, let's put our promotions hat on and let's promote this. Let's figure out how we want to consume it, how we want to shape it to be consumed, how we can push it out to the world, and then I guess for me, it goes from an editorial team to a promotions team or something like that and those are kind of overlapping integrated. I think we need to do, or I think that needs to be done. I don't think we need to do it. I think it needs to be done. I can also pretty much say that it's not going to be me that does that. So another thing, I have this structural deficit in other parts of my organizations. I have a number of organizations I've started or participate in that are dev heavy or product development heavy and marketing light and sales light. I love, Jerry, I love your focus on, hey, let's just do this organically. And I also am concerned that that's not going to get very far, which may be fine. I think my guess is that that's kind of a way of hoping or getting to do the things that we think are fun and then hoping that something will catch, somebody else will pick it up and distribute it, right? And I think it's a luck thing that that happens. It's not much more of a, so to do it right, to do it more cohesively, more holistically, I think just like there are people like me who are like, dude, I'll volunteer for anything as long as it's got marked on an HTML in it. You kind of want people who do the same thing, dude, I'll do anything as long as I can post to LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram and TikTok and write up editorial calendars and manage marketing messages and all that kind of stuff. You want those kind of people too, right? And I think that's the way it gets done. I think hoping that it will happen is not enough. I think it actually needs a team working on it in the same way that the tech needs a team working on it or it doesn't happen. So to close, let me make a short pitch. I'm re-energized around thinking about what I'm currently thinking of as micro startups or nano startups, where you have a slicing pie dynamic equity way of arranging not so much ownership, but governance and involvement and actively recruiting for the functions that you don't have. You know, if it's tech, you can recruit for that or if it's marketing or recruit for that or whatever, if it's just editorial, reading, writing, pushing words around, you can recruit for that. There's a lot of things that we don't do in the world because we have a sister group, FreeJay's Brain where we did a cool development effort and we couldn't figure out to kind of split up the equity governance of it. So we just said, oh, let's just all make it open source and that works, but it burns people out. Jerry, we did get some thank you again for contributing into the fund to reward the people who made some of that open source stuff. But I thought open source was actually our initial goal. What we couldn't figure out is like the rest of it, but my goal was from the start to make sure we wrote some open source software. Yeah, I'm telescoping a little bit. We didn't get, I think we could have gotten a lot farther with Mean Brain and maybe Brainy McBrainface. If, you know, an open source project and we did, we accomplished, I don't know, we didn't set out to do a particular open source project. We set out to do some open source in the right vein and we did it. And then nothing happened, kind of. We didn't get marketing, we didn't get distribution. Nobody uses Mean Brain because nobody knows about it because we didn't do marketing for it. So it kind of comes back around to my point. There ought to be structure in the world where because of my background, I think of it as a startup structure, but we ought to have startups where the investment capital is a few dozens hours of my time or a few hundreds of dollars from some kind owner or something and set up those structures so that we can get persistent work done and persistent and growing work done like new books wants to do, for instance. And also, I believe that it would be wonderful to have a world where I could say startup and not have people go, oh, that means VC, that means millions of dollars, that means cashing out. Let me get on that, that's what I want. That's not what I'm talking about when I say startup. I'm really talking about we need some way of doing project teams that are more cohesive and more well-rounded and have reward for the people participating that's not necessarily just about money or not necessarily just about equity even, but about proportional involvement, proportional, kind of say, proportional reward of whatever that means, good in the world as a big reward. So for Rick's benefit now, because class has fallen off, mean brain and brain name and brain face are the names of two pieces of software that are related that we were using to basically scrape and access my brain data, classes back then. Class, I was just explaining that mean brain and brain name and brain face are two project names from FreeJerry's brain in the Monday call that's a little bit later today. And Pete, I think I have to apologize to you then because I saw those two as explorations that weren't close to being productive, production quality useful. I didn't see them being a thing that could be used by muggles or near that. And I thought that we sort of stalled at that point for a variety of reasons about brain access, about whatever else I don't know. So I didn't know or even surmise that it was frustrating to you that we didn't try to market it, that we didn't go more like this was an offer that could be in the worldview. That wasn't even a thought in my head at the stage that we were at. So I apologize for that. Well, you don't need no apology necessary. And I wasn't frustrated at the time because I was glad to have built something. It's a frustration that builds over time. You and I and Rick and Klaus have spent literally years of our lives working together, building cool stuff. Years later now, it seems like less of that stuff gets out in the world than would be nice. And I'm looking to spend more of my time on things that not only are cool but actually get out into the world, right? So it's a hindsight observation. It's not, you know, a not in the moment observation. And, you know, and back straight to kind of the new books called to action and Klaus's book called to action. All I want to do is help save the world, right? And Klaus has got an amazing amount of information and in the world that we live in having an amazing amount of information sitting on Google drives is, you know, doesn't matter. So we just need to, we need more traction. You know, that's all I'm looking for. So, go ahead, Brad. I'll tell something you said earlier. I see there's a Venn diagram between the sort of an editorial group, a writers group and the readership group. And actual fact, I would put the readership group at the head because at the end of the day if you don't involve your readers, I mean, that's one advantage of Substack which authors do, they publish things, they get people, get their readers reacting to it. So you test it out in advance rather than producing something and then finding out that maybe it doesn't market very well. So you're constantly testing it and coming back to your comment about NATO or micro innovations. I mean, that's something that could be done internally. I mean, if we can't do it internally within the group of this group then it's not going to happen outside. So, I mean, the first test case really is can you get people within this community more activated because they feel strongly that things have got to change. It appeals to their self-interest. There's an attractor that makes it people willing to go with it and to participate. But it calls for participation a different way. The blog post that I shared there actually goes into some of the things I've been experimenting with about how to create instead of facilitated, centered presentation or Zoom calls, how to go towards a group-centered process which is going away from the stage on the stage, the guide on the side, there's plenty of information there. So it's actually trying to create, if one creates a more meaningful learning experience, and people say, wow, that was really worth going to. I wasn't multitasking while I was doing it. I wasn't checking my email while things were going on. I was engaged and it caught my attention and something came out of it that I didn't expect. And that's where Genitive Dialog can be so powerful in creating new insights, breakthrough understands the RDR. You create this kind of experience, people want to come back for more, better than a Netflix blockbuster series, ideally. So, how do we make it so that people say, I want to participate, this is good. So I think testing it out in terms of the internal market to see whether you can create that sort of energy, then you can go outside, okay, so how can we then use whatever you want to call it, clone, mycelium, whatever it is, the ways that so that it becomes self-organizing, self-generating, because it has to be designed that way. If you're gonna have any opportunity of amplifying or even better, still exponentiating learning opportunities. So that's my two cents. Thank you, so a couple of thoughts to add. I'm not a blocking conscientious objector to SEO, it's just not where I want to put much of my energy. That said, as I'm writing titles and thinking of tags and whatever else, I'm clearly thinking about what will snag people's attention and what will make them show up and actually read these things and go forward. So I'm doing a little tiny bit of it myself and I wrote in the chat that it's very likely that some of the people participating or even lurking in the OGM lists are into SEO and SEM and would know what to do and so forth. A third thing struck me which was, hey, why don't we feed a post into chat GPT as a corpus and say what are the smartest things we could do to get SEO or other kinds of attention for this post? And let's use the intelligence to guide us a little bit toward what might actually work. I'd be happy to do that as an experiment to be really fun. I think I would learn a ton going there. Then for the NeoBooks project, I've been working us toward getting an output book of some sort that we can show the OGM crowd so that we can then say now we need help here, here and here, but here's the thing and it's pretty much, it's on its way out the door. We have a thing, we have a group who've been working toward it, et cetera. And I felt that until we got near that spot it was a little bit early to go back into OGM and say, come help us now, let's go crazy. It seems that with sub-stack and given our tactic or strategy of pre-posting chapters through sub-stack or nuggets through sub-stack, the time might be now and let's just get a couple in the tube and out the chute and then come back to OGM and say, hey people, let's do this. A small side note, I think I said last week that there was a guy who was gonna be at COP who was gonna take next Thursdays, this Thursdays OGM call to turn to help him out. It turns out he now has an important meeting that conflicts with that time so we'll just have to move that to a different time so that's not happening. Klaus? Yeah, so in regard to search engine optimization that really is the core reason for the inclusion of spiral dynamics into chapter one because we have to think about target audience and the, not just cognition but also worldviews of specific quotes. So are we talking to an orange audience or a blue audience? Are we addressing those specific sub-quotes? And I think, I mean, that's basically what marketing PR is doing. That's what the political process is doing and that now goes into an area where a lot of folks are not really all that comfortable because manipulative and all those things but then in order to be effective, right? How do we talk about climate change or climate change related issues to a blue audience? For example, that believes in magic and believes that these are their higher powers are responsible for this and you see that when you follow the news cycle and you listen in to the conversations, they are clearly dominating the conversation of how far within their worldviews. So I wanted to set the stage in volume one to create messages that are target audience specific. And have us feel comfortable with this because we want to be heard. And in order to be heard, we have to enter the worldview and not bring in ideas that are just conflicting and shutting down conversations with people we would like to talk. Pops, what you're saying first gave me the thought it's really easy for me to imagine doing what I said earlier about asking chat GPT about SEO for Nugget and doing that by color layer in the integral model and the spiral dynamics model. And then I had the second idea, oh my gosh, you could start a company called Spiral SEO and market that and sell it in the world. So I've got your trademark in the chat. Pete, go ahead. Thanks. I think I want to break in to say I apologize. This has been a great conversation and I think I should take off. I've got stuff to take care of. Jerry, I won't make it to FJB today. Okay. Off having fun at tide pools. Oh, sweet. Looking forward to continuing the conversation. Thanks Rick, thanks Koss. Thanks Jerry as always. Thanks Pete, that's great. Cheers. Cheers. Cool. So given everything we've said so far, any additional thoughts or questions or? Well just, you know, to me it's a question of doing this nano innovations, you know, when you have your blog post and actually, you know, encourage people to come to Monday or you know, you may have to do it on a Thursday which I can never make. So that it, you know, how can you get people internally excited about the idea? So I don't know when you feel you have something to share in terms of a draft that would be, you know, that we can read and comment on before it's published and then take it to the group, get them in there and then say, okay, and you can cross. I mean, I do this all the time now. I write an article in the sub stack and do a short one in LinkedIn and vice versa. So there, and then if you do one on LinkedIn I, in the past I have done this and it does work except you've got to get people to agree to it which is if you get a certain number of things in the first two hours on LinkedIn, I mean, you know, if that's the name of the game and you don't have the control over it then it does help if you can get people to make comments on it from the get go and it'll help, you know, push up some of the exposures. So, yeah, so as I was saying a moment ago my original goal was to get a draft kind of ready for publication and then go back to OGM and say, hey, look, let, you know, help us do this, et cetera. Now that we've got the sub stack I think if we can publish two sub stack posts that are substantive and interesting and then mirror those in on the OGM Wiki and sort of show what this is and how it works I think that's a much nearer goal and it's a place where we could go back to the group and say, join us on Mondays. And I have no problem inviting many more people to come join us on these calls this would be the right place to do it. Well, the thing about, what I'm talking about is sort of pre-marketing really and it's pre-marketing internally so that before something to be published you're actually generating interest in it. They've got an advanced warning when it's gonna be published and, you know, you can post it on other places as well or links to other places so that people do the same thing. But it does, I mean, to me, that's, you know if we're not effectively promoting each other then, you know, if we can't do it ourselves it ain't gonna happen outside of ourselves. Yep, yep, totally agree. So, totally agree. I'm game to play. Good, thank you. Klaus, any other thoughts? No, I'm good. And I'm about to get into a mountain range because of any ways. And I'm thinking we've done a lot. This feels like a call we can wrap right now and. Just one last quick comment. Yeah. Klaus, one of the things that I find with, you know the whole climate change aspects of it all this advocacy, regeneration, whatever is that unless you go upstream beyond that and look at the political corruption, power structures, you know, I mean, that's why COP is not going to I don't know if many people are particularly optimistic about it. I'm certainly not. And the question is unless you're actually calling out the power structures that make it difficult to actually do something, then just pure advocacy for climate change by itself is swimming against the stream. So. And, you know, we had a brief discussion on the election in Argentina. And when you think about it, I'd be where they have traveling, which was called and you always get a lecture and you have some professor comment on that. So we got an overview of the election. There were three candidates running and there was a huge demonstration outside our hotel street shut down during that time. So it was quite interesting. So what it turned out is that the guy who won is actually paid for by, you know, the richest people in Argentina. There's one guy, you know, this quote that warrants all the airports, they're all like major hotel chains. And they, you know, this is back to the ultimate treatment approach of privatize everything, you know, and the most disturbing part of all of this is that climate change is just not real. At the same time, Argentina this year had a major global failure caused by climate change. So it's a tragedy unfolding in front of the eyes. And so, and this is why I'm still working in all of this. Now, on this discussion, because in your week there's one paragraph where he's saying the transition period, you have established democracies, established power structures hanging on with ever more regulations, ever more tightening down, you know, doubling down on what clearly doesn't work, but reserving it in the process, ramming it deeper into the ground, making it more difficult to turn away from. And that's exactly the space we're in right now. It's extremely dangerous. And you see it how you have concentrated wealth, dominate global politics. COP28, I mean Bill Gates, my God, I mean, the guy is influencing the World Economic Forum. You have McKinsey coming up with insane ideas of how to use technology and innovation to create a new reality completely ignoring the socio-economic impacts of their ideas and the climate impacts of their energy. So that's the answer. But people are saying they want to save the world for the future. But it is sort of where I'm at. I thought there's nothing more on the same page. Well, to end on an even more pessimistic note. Oh, good. If the Netherlands can go right. I mean, that is just, I have, you know, Dutch colleagues and I haven't been able to touch base them about what they think is what the hell is going on in the Netherlands with Gert Wilder's coming into power. I mean, the swing to the right is just. And if we don't, if we don't start taking on these issues and when we were caught because we have an act, that's the whole point of that blog post actually shared is that we have, you know, incompetent, unethical governance. Yeah, we don't have to go into details now. But anyway, upwards and onwards, right? For the good fight. So here's the, here's me lay and builders win big. They both won like in swing landslides. Here's the rise of the European rightists. Here's the global shift to the far right. I've been tracking this for a while. I added this thought in 2016. Can you share a link? Sure. Yeah, that'd be cool. Coming up. Let me just get to the chat. Bottom line really is that we have to reduce consumption. Because the best in the US and best in European and consumption patterns are clearly unsustainable. And the, and so we are coming from this high to convincing a lot of people that we have to power down. And no one really wants to. There's no way. And I think if they was responsible leadership, you know, it could be, it could be packaged, but there isn't now. And so, so yeah, we are, we are in a really bad. Yeah, it's a pickle. Cool. Thank you very much, Klaus. Thank you so much for dialing in while you're driving. I really appreciate it. And it's worked out. Yeah. You should say. Thank you to my. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. All right. Thanks guys. See you.