 Okay. Well, hello everybody. Good evening. Good morning. All the, all the times wherever you're all located today. Welcome to Brain Club. So for those that I don't know and I think there are a couple, a couple of names looked new so welcome, welcome those, welcome to everybody, but in particular those who are new to Brain Club. I'm Mel Hauser. I use Shiba pronouns and I am Executive Director at All Brains Belong. So tonight we will be discussing neurodivergent work challenges. Before we get started though just by way of introduction our community agreement. All forms of participation are okay here you can have your video on or off and even if it is on we do not expect anything of you we certainly don't need you to look at the camera or sit still. And you know please move, fidget, stim, eat, whatever you need and everyone is welcome here. And all forms of communication are welcome. You can unmute and use mouth words, you can type in the chat, whatever works for you. And because safety comes first here, we really want to make sure that we're explicitly affirming all aspects of identity, and that we're respecting and protecting one another's access needs, access needs being anything that anyone needs for full and meaningful participation. And what what what that means as our group has gotten larger. We want to pay some careful attention to giving space for everyone to participate by the way participation and there's no right way to participate. Observation is a completely valid form of participation. But for those who do want to directly contribute to conversation either with mouth words or in the chat we want to make sure we're giving space. So, that's all I have to say about that. Anyway, last thing I'll mention is that today is for education purposes only it is not medical advice and individual traumatic experiences are best processed in a therapeutic setting brain club is not such a setting. Last bit of access. Close captioning is enabled. You just need to toggle it on at your end if you'd like to use it. So depending on your version of zoom, you can click either the lab transcript close captioning icon if you see it. Otherwise, try more dot dot dot and choose show subtitles. And, and you can do the same thing and choose hide subtitles if you'd like to turn them off. And lastly, we often tend to have a robust conversation going on in the chat. I'll read out selections from the chat. Periodically as we go. But if you look on your on your zoom toolbar you're looking for this speech bubble and that's how to find the chat. So we are continuing our May 2023 brain club theme of neurodivergent lived experiences. So, here we go. Many of you have seen this slide before but our model here at all brains belong is that to do anything for the neurodivergent community we have to do everything which is why our programs address medical care. We have education access and educational trainings for the community to shift the community conversation on neurodiversity and inclusion. Social connection and employment, all of these things are part of well being and health. What we know is that autistic adults are anywhere from two and a half to eight times more likely to be unemployed or under employed and so and so that you could see that the wide variety but the take one point is that more likely than non autistic people to be unemployed or under employed. We know that 80% of ADHD adults experience employment related challenges. And what we know is that employment is linked with health, it's part of health. Unemployment increases the probability of developing a chronic health condition by 83%. And what we know is that those who are unemployed versus those who are employed at any level. They experience at least twice the amount of distress. And when we think about the, you know, the financial impact the psychological impact there's so much of this that goes that goes into this, and, and because when we think about all of the, you know, the intersectional differences in which people are marginalized and other there's just like you just stack up all of these, all of these things, and, and it's really bad for health. What we know is that we all have access needs we talked about this last week at brain club access needs anything that a person needs for full participation. And everyone has access needs it's just that for neuro divergent people, we are more likely to have our access needs not met by the defaults of society. So when we think about what are the examples of the types of access needs that one might think about that, you know that relate to to work. You know, it's, it's so many different things it's the environment, you know sensory processing mobility communication executive functioning, the way that instructions are presented, or the pace of speed at which instructions are given activity or access needs, the style of supervision and management I mean it's just like so many different things. And when we think about all of the opportunities for access needs to be unmet, this is going to take a toll. And while, you know, humans are resilient and resourceful and while people whose access needs are not met often figure out workarounds or compensation strategies for access needs not being that it's at a cost it's at a huge cost. And what we don't want, we don't want the square peg that's being hammered to fit into the round hole because look what happens you break the peg. And Steve is sharing, and I absolutely agree it's all compounded by the the work driven ethic right so so you know the, the, the American society that you're referring to you know this this this capitalistic, you know, urgency culture the way that like value is ascribed to how much you produce it's all of these oppressive systems that are further compounding the problem I absolutely agree with that. The word merit in quotes right so so the, the, the idea that you know what you accomplish what you produce all of this like this that this is this is that this is where value is derived as opposed to you. And the value simply just by being. When we think about the social model of disability, where rather than you know in contrast to the medical model that says that the issue is the individual, the social model of disability refers to the issue being an inaccessible and when people don't have their access needs met. That's where we see breakdown. And as Steve says in the chat if merit mattered neurodivergent people will be doing a lot better right it's it's so so you know when we when we think about what we really would like to see so. Dr Thomas Armstrong in the book the power of neurodiversity uses the term niche construction, each construction be you know the idea of learning about your brain and your needs and designing a life that works for your brain. We, you know, so many people are such a long ways away from each construction. And even when we ask people about their access needs they don't know how to answer that question. Most people have not been ever asked this before. And so, one of my favorite quotes from one of our ABB village members is, I don't know what my needs are, I just know they're not being met, like, so profound like yeah that. So when we, when we think about it's helpful Tonya Tonya is saying that it's not just the American society with with with these capitalistic ideals is very similar in Australia. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm saddened and not surprised to hear that. Um, the idea would be that maybe rather than saying you know like what do you need, maybe we work backwards, maybe we're asking you know what drains my battery and if I don't know that maybe I wonder well when am I exhausted, one of my stress when do I when do I flip my lid when do I doubt myself like and maybe the answer to that is always because depending on, you know, in what situations and what environments your accesses are not met. This may be most environments that one is in. When we think about our original approach to talking about employment and accessibility, we set out to, to like the oblique angle rather than name all the things that are not working. We thought well why don't we identify places where things are working well and bright spot those examples. And so we launched this program, a little over a year ago. And, and this is a program through which Vermont employees can nominate their employers who are creating environments where people with all types of brains can thrive. And I'm very excited to announce the spring 2023 award winners perky planet, Lawson's finest liquids, three mountain cafe and seaweed car washing detail center. So, so so we're and you can you can learn more about these employers on on our website thanks so much for posting those Lizzie. And what we know is that there are some predictable elements the fundamentals of neuro inclusive workspaces relating to essentially these are all the this matches really closely to the examples we gave of what are some of the considerations about access needs neuro inclusive workspaces are about the multiple different types of access needs that an employee might have and designing workplaces and workplace culture intentionally so that people with different types of access needs can pick from flexible choices about how to meet that. And for a while, we, we, because you know we've been we've been having monthly neuro inclusive employment brain clubs for about a year now. And Lizzie if you could link the playlist to all the YouTube recordings of all of the past neuro inclusive employment brain clubs. We've really run the gamut in terms of how we've approached these conversations. We've, we've had community panels of neurodivergent people talking about you know what doesn't work and what does work. We've had employer panels about how they, you know create create workplaces for people to have their access needs met. We've looked at you know some of the oppressive power systems that are you know, you know, causing further gaps in economic and health equity. We've talked about, you know what actually defines a neuro inclusive workplace culture. And anyway, but today we're going to do something different. We have feedback from a community member. Not everyone can work for a neuro inclusive right spot. So what about the rest of us. How do we cope. And I thought that that was such thoughtful, really profound feedback of like, no, I want to, we need something different we need to create something different and structure this conversation differently. You know, when, when we're in the trenches, it can feel so isolating. And sometimes, you know, the bright spotting I think has a really important role to play in terms of what we can strive for and work toward and you know models for employers to follow. So when we're in the trenches. It's, it's, it's, it's not super helpful to hear about all the, all the things that go on that you don't have access to. So thank you. I really appreciate appreciate this feedback. So what I want to just present to you as a framework before we open this for discussion. So many of you have read this book called scarcity, I bought by sential mullinateman and elder Shafir. But I'm going to stop sharing you know I can see you again. You know scarcity. I read a number of a number of years ago, and the, you know, the concept is that, you know, when, when you don't have your needs met this affects thinking and acting and actually leads to poor decision making and reduced well being. You know when you think about all the essential resources you know whether that be physical emotional cognitive spiritually you know your whole social support system. There's just so much scarcity out there. And you know some of the some of the things this book talks about is that you know when you when you have scarcity. It's predictable that will become the primary focus of one's existence, and it makes it really hard to concentrate on anything else even even even important other things else. But the scarcity creates really a cognitive tunneling effect where where we're fixated on on on having that particular need met, and that leads to getting stuck scarcity creates a pattern of getting stuck because all of one's situation and bandwidth is is consumed, and doesn't, and to the expense of everything else and so, you know, and what the book really talks about is how do you how do you recognize when you're in scarcity mindset, and even if you're still in a space of scarcity, mindset part like how do you shift from a scarcity mindset to having more bandwidth. And, you know, I think I think how how how I'm wondering how this plays out into the neurodivergent challenges at work conversation would be, you know, can we get to a place of, you know, we can't have the thing. You know, can we can, can we can we shift anything just by knowing that, you know, we're not alone. There are people who understand, you know, that that you're seeing that, you know, recognized your challenges are are recognized and like being, being on this journey together. So that does that have any impact on the experience of scarcity on that access needs, all of it. What do you all think. Vicki. Thanks. Okay, is it okay to kind of tell you something that I'm dealing with right now and kind of get the group's feedback, because it does pertain to scarcity and employment accommodations. Sure. So, I, I run my own house cleaning business it's a just me it's a small business. And I love my clients I love the work and it's very it's it's successful enough for me gives me a lot of flexibility. The issue is that I have to report my income to four different agencies. And those agencies are based on the idea that low income people are not self employed. So every month I have to fill out a change of employment form, because if your income changes by more than 10%, which mind does every month, you have to fill out a change of employment form. It's more difficult because I thought well maybe if I just earn enough money. But if I lose disability status, I lose eligibility for my mortgage, because it went through that, that criteria. And I don't know why I don't know if it's autism or traumatic brain injury or PTSD. But filing the income documents is not something I seem to be able to do. I've been, I've gone to capstone and their Vermont brain injury Alliance and higher ability and CVMC social services. Looking for anyone that can help me just file my income. I can't find anyone. And I've been looking for a long time and now I'm facing the idea that maybe I have to stop working not because I can't work, but because I can't keep up with the regulations of the benefits. So I hope that's not derailing things too much I just. I thought if anyone would, would know. Have any advice it might be this group. Yeah, this is and so while while you were sharing Vicki just a lot of a lot of a lot of people nodding along with various components of that like you're not you're not alone by any means. And just as Laura says in the chat, what a very, very broken system. I'm feeling a really a lot of shame because it doesn't seem recognized that that could be an access me. Yeah. Yeah. And I actually asked higher ability before I started my business I was like, I've done a few house cleaning jobs people are asking me to do more I'd like this to be a source of income I don't want to declare a business. Unless there's support for filing because I can't do that. And they said that they did have the support because I think they really honestly believe that they did. But they don't. Yeah, I'm just I'm facing having my disability taken away now because I can't keep up with the reporting and if the disability goes away then the mortgage I don't know what all, but it's, it's quite a bit. Yeah, all right so so Lisa Lisa has her hand up let's see let's let's go for Lisa. So I can relate to what you're saying. I was self employed as a dance teacher for many, many years, and I had SSDI and had to figure out how to make sure then that's to its own train wreck rate. And then, but what I ended up doing because my file was like, and they're like yeah we don't we don't we don't fit in the system. I just kept track myself eventually and would give them the information kind of in a chunk and if I knew that I was going to owe them something I would have it saved to the side, then just give it to them. Because every time I entered something it flagged their system, and you get sent a million things. So I'm not sure it's the best thing but it's kind of what I ended up doing. nightmare. And so you know here, here we are having people not have their access needs met who are having to then spend all of all of all this extra spoons to like navigate this nonsense. CV says, this is so huge I relate 100% it keeps me feeling so trapped the disability systems are not accessible if I work I risk losing my shelter and medical right. And, and, and, and so many people feel feel trapped. And, you know, when the as Lisa saying in the chat the executive function demands are an issue like I mean this is, you know, I think the point that I can that I want to I want to zoom in on is the shame part right. The same part of like, I can't do the thing, where it's like, the thing was thwarted. The thing was thwarted. There's nothing wrong with you that you are struggling to do the thing, like everything you're trying to do is just being thwarted. And when when when coming from a place of having you know for all of the, the old narratives of being the defectiveness narrative like it just, it gets brought up time and time again and recalled when things like this happen. It's almost like you know how, how do we, in the setting of being thwarted. How do you recognize that you're being thwarted, as opposed to blaming yourself for struggling to do the thing. What do folks think about that. How do we do that how do we shift to recognizing and like matching the pattern of like, you know, these, these, these. These really broken systems getting in the way and not that this is a reflection on your value as a human being. I think it goes back to the old fashion mentality of how people with disabilities should be treated with this year 2023. No, I think, yes, we're all different individuals for their what we're dealing with. And we're all at our levels of, we're all at different levels of capacities. And how we can be, how we can be in within society in the community, but it's that government body or agencies making it hard just to put those arms just by the way. I mean, it's, you know, paper what you have to put through. You know, I don't think it stays got nothing. I think you just put one on the paper. Not the going to different agencies. That's, yeah, that's more like, well, okay. Yeah, so I think it's, I think the old fashion mentality has to change and thinking the way they see it. And with the way that we what we can give to the, to the society and the community and general. But if that ever happens, just thinking into the box. Yes. And, you know, recognizing that, you know, all human beings have value and have something to contribute to society. And it's not the systems that are going to provide the way forward the systems, you know, are designed to keep those in power and, and, and I actually really I want to just zoom into this amazing post in the chat from Allison. Hi Vicki I don't know if you want suggestions or to support is there anyone in your life that is good at paperwork, but bad at housekeeping so you can exchange skills right so so what what that, what that comment means to me is it's really about a culture of interdependence. So this is like from the, from, from the ground up, creating something new. Because the systems are not going to become more accessible. And it's about how do we reimagine what it means to belong to community to not spend all your spoons on this thing that is is is is unfortunately the rate limiting factor to all the other things. Lisa asked in the chat when you know you're being thwarted, where do you put the anger. What do folks think about that question. Not saying it's healthy but I always just turn the anger inward. Right. And so many people do you I see lots of nods. Yeah, so so many people do right. And, and, and that's, that's where, you know, the, the, the, just when you can shift from a place of blaming something, not not not not to say that like we go around blaming that's not what I mean by that but just like that you can attribute like the root, the root of a problem outside of you, as opposed to blaming yourself for the problem like that shift is is is huge. And I think I think how this this this this plays out to like our ongoing conversations around regulation is that when you are dysregulated when your limbic system is triggered. And you're having this involuntary automatic limbic response you may not actually have access to the, the, the cortex the upstairs brain skills of zooming out, zooming out is a complex brain skill. You're able to zoom out and say I'm, you know, this system is really messed up. That's a skill you may not have access to it's actually an executive functioning skill to be able to zoom out and and and recognize that you're not the problem. And so what happens is we we loop into these over rehearsal neural pathways that said it's my fault. There's something wrong with me. There's anger and grief right so many so many so many complex emotions it's all it's all it's all rolled up to this and how could you not feel that way how could you not feel that way. Sarah says, it seems that the shift is most definitely not linear it goes back and forth depending on one's level of regulation right and how what you have access to. Elizabeth says I think sometimes we have to spell out to folks exactly what we want them to do for us and tell them what has not worked in the past I'm constantly having to to say I can't do that and stop people when they start explaining how to do that. Steve says it's not that we created those patterns we were taught in a detailed way, right. It wasn't an accident it was like an explicit message. It wasn't some childhood. I want to zoom back up to a question that was asked question my name was. I missed it and I was like oh I'm going to that sounds like a great topic and then I got you real. So the question is, when interviewing for a new job how to communicate access needs or how much to communicate at first. What has been what has been folks experiences around that I have something to say about that but I want to I would love to know what what you all think about that Liam. My experience has I've always been told don't state your access needs. Like, you have to make yourself look like the perfect candidate without any possible flaws or needs. It has to be entirely what you do for the company and nothing about what can help you. So, so many people are explicitly hot that. What do you think the long term impact is of entering into environments where it's not okay to talk about your access needs. How does that play out. Fortunately, I've been lucky to in my short experience of employment I've always, I've always worked through higher ability where the access needs are brought up at the table. Right. So I don't really know what it's like but I guess that it's really not helpful it probably leads to a lot of stress. Yes. And probably it makes you at risk for losing your job. All of that Liam, all of that. So I think the advice of, you know, and it's and it's hard right so if you are presently employed, and you need income. And you are not at a plan you're in your access needs are not being met and you're being forwarded left and right. You know that it's it's a privilege to be able to walk away from a place of employment. And even to go through the process of applying for other jobs that takes executive functioning which you may not have access to if you don't have your access needs met all day and your batteries being constantly drained. So like that's real. And if we're really talking about beginning a new employment relationship. I think I think often in the adb village, you know, when when people are of the of the viewing world through the lens of like well I'm not going to, I'm not going to show my true self. I'm going to present, you know, the self that I want that I think people want to see. It's really only a matter of time because you're set up, you present your mask and then you're like you that mask persists and the pressure to present that mask persists, and then that drains battery. And it becomes, and like Mary saying burnout from masking over stimulation. I never knew why I couldn't handle what others could I could pretend for a time, but the older I got the harder it became and often it's not even about age. It's about, you know, time spent in burnout. It's, it's, it's you can, you only have a certain amount of bandwidth and energy and when you spend it. It's like your, it's like your car right like when you run out of gas you can't drive anymore. It's like that. I love this lovely conversation in the chat like this is what this is this is this is and I forget who said it, I missed the line about you know a community that takes care of itself like this is a this is a place to make connections. And, you know, there, there, there are, you know, when, when, when again we're not going to likely fix the structural problems and systems. We do much find people who get it. And, you know, to try to devise, you know, some, some, some creative work around and bartering skills, Mary said bartering skills amongst ourselves is a great idea. So going back to a question I posed at the beginning around, you know, if is, you know, when you don't have your access needs met, is it the case that all of your attention goes to getting your particular access needs met. Like that's the scarcity mindset thing right like it's, it's fairly I mean this book is really well researched. It's fairly predictable that that's going to happen it's not like a, you know, a character deficit it's like a predictable human nature thing. So, so, and then, and then the stuckness. So how do we get, how do, how do we shift out of that when you recognize that it's happening, because it's going to happen it's going to happen to all of us. I mean it does happen to all of us. David. I thought I'd send a chat text but I'm not sure that it went through I for me, the discovery in being part of a group like this. It's a continuing process that one of the big ones is just realizing what my access needs probably have been. I mean I'm beyond the end of my career and I look back on it now and for me it would have been. I know this sounds maybe a little defeatist I wouldn't have expected most of the organizations I worked for to figure out how to meet my access needs but I should have known better what those needs were and not gotten involved in the first place. And a lot of years and organizations big bureaucracies that were not about to change their pace of way of doing things. And this is sort of neurotypical dominance magnified by many times, and it just knowing what the needs are and then for being very clear on which organizations are likely to meet them or not being being just sort of humble about what you can do within an organization is not about listen very carefully. Other people have talked in here in previous sessions about trying to point out things that were problems within an organization where people just didn't want to hear that and maybe eventually they would catch up and realize what was going on. And it's often tough to be there in the meantime when people aren't realizing that so for me it's just that sense of being very clear on what who I am and what my needs are and what kind of organization would work for that. This has been terrific I wish I had been here 50 years ago. There's there's there's so much, you know, like, and I just want to say like you, you couldn't have received this message 50 years ago right like so you all of us right we can only, you know, like if you're not surrounded by community that get it. You're the only one who has a certain framework like you're not you're not you're not going to be able to ship the paradigm of like, you know, of how you, you know, even describe your own experience. Laura. David that just really resonates with some of my own experiences and recognizing where we can make change and where we can't and then like Mel I think you're such the role model of doing your own thing when you can't change the system. But one thing that strikes me is that I had an experience of applying for a job that was not my dream job that I didn't. It was kind of like, when me over if I'm going to take this job you've got it. And it was such a different experience than any other job I'd ever applied for where I really wanted it and I wanted to portray myself this certain way that I thought was very powerful. And it actually was such a great learning experience to feel like I had this power seat of like, these are my conditions, do they work for you or not because that's what I need to work here. And in some ways I think just having that experience of the not dream job application was really empowering in future application processes for myself, and knowing that negotiation power that you have to. I don't have the knowledge to hold that power but to be able to learn the skill of saying like I'm interviewing you as much as you're interviewing me and this has to be a fit for me to make sense. Yes, absolutely. And when, when people have received the message that you don't get to have needs that you are needy, if you get to have needs like how on earth would we get to a place where we can enter a job situation to say, you know, oh I have needs I'm interviewing the employer like, like that's just so unlikely. When you're when you're in that state. And I think that you know when what the other thing that came to mind when when when David was sharing is just the idea of safety. Right, so you could be entering a job interview and get like the red flag like like radar vibes. And if you don't trust your intuition, because when you know you've been, you've been told that you're overreacting or you've been told you're too sensitive or you've been told you're making a big deal about things when you don't have that intuition of like oh I'm getting a I'm getting a vibe here that like doesn't feel like I can show up as my true self or like you know I feel unsafe with these people in this environment like, or or I'm supposed to feel that way because it's new I'm supposed to feel that way because it's a job interview, like there's all these narratives that make people discount their own experience. Sarah says reminds me of interviewing healthcare providers for myself when they're pregnant made me really feel like the provider was a good match for me. Right, and I think that, you know, what, when we are meeting people in whether in a, you know, professional context or personal conflicts. There's a, there's a difference I think between the like being able to show up authentically versus not. And I think that people with they have not, if they're not used to feeling safe in community. They don't expect to feel safe. And so if something feels unsafe. It's like oh well that's how life feels. And so people end up in employment situations where you know and yeah, things go south and if you ask people like, you know, did you did you have any warning signs of this almost always they did. They, you know, they, they, they, they didn't, they didn't know that they could discern safe for not safe. Steve says I was a manager a school principal, I valued my neurodivergent employees the students 30% more were also neurodiverse I did everything I could to make it work for them. But there, there are also incredible barriers for even well intentioned managers, and you know you're listing listing all of the, all of the barriers are just so many. So, so yes. It's, it's, it's, it's very hard. And I mean I can, I can, I can say and like I've, I've, I'm really new to being an employer. And I really, it's like really important to me to be a neuro inclusive employer. And we have, we have, you know, as a, as a, as a small enterprise, we have the flexibility to like be responsive and nimble and make changes to make sure everyone's access needs are being met and in a, in a, in a big enterprise there are lots of systemic barriers. And I cannot imagine, you know, I cannot imagine being thwarted by the system for how to meet people's access needs that I was responsible for, like that that is just an, you know, what Steve is describing is just, and this is how it is this is like a lot of people. So it's like it begins with a paradigm shift and it also like comes down to autonomy and agency to actually do the right thing. Oh, sorry, I think, think, think, thank you Sarah for bringing to my attention I'm sorry Lisa for not seeing your hand. Go for it. Yeah, when you're talking about the red flags and things it really reminds me of the same kind of thing with trauma or when you are just used to being on hyper vigilant mode and, and that's normal right and there's nothing else and so if you don't know anything else then you're just like yeah this relationship or this job or this lifestyle this is what it is. And it's just that I'm bad at it, not that. And you think of it's kind of that way, I guess. Yeah, and if we're looking for a visual support so whether we're talking about you know trauma like macro trauma, or, you know, micro trauma of everyday life this is a really good book sensory trauma autism sensory and the daily experience of fear. So trauma physiology stays in the body right and, and I think that, you know, it's, it, it, it, those over rehearsed neural pathways like the brain is changed. And, and, you know, we, we, we, we, in many ways often, you know, gravitate toward what is over rehearsed. Anyone else noticed a lack of flexibility under a diversity especially in the mental and mental health field or is it me. Oh yeah for sure it's so so and this also comes to make it comes to training, and we talk a lot about, you know, brain rules versus world rules and by brain rules I don't mean that like the brain rules book about how to get your brain to work better. And like the rules that seem like they are like universal life truths but your brain really made them up or like someone else's brain made them up and like you got brainwashing to them. Anyway, there are so many brain rules in the health care system in the medical education system. Like I was literally when I can say that because I was trained in the traditional health care system right like, I mean I was literally trained before it would be a person. There's one or a bit of develop there's one or a to like communicate and play and you know all the things right and it's just it's just wrong. Yes, I will look for the link for the book I talked about for sure. But and that's where to Aiden's point I think when you can recognize that a system is really messed up, and that it's not, it's not you. But that's huge. Oh, thank you Laura thank you for supporting my executive functioning. I have a kind of brain that's so hard to like they can talk and like open up web browser. Thank you. So what have we not addressed tonight that I that that we think would be important to name around employment, whether that be, you know, ways, ways of coping ways of getting on stock ways of connecting with community ways of just, you know, just just reframing the experience of being in the trenches. Somebody said in a long ago, brain club that if you're stuck in work that it isn't working that you have basically you can either accept what's going on, you can change what's happening. You can try to create something new, or you can leave. And what struck me like going through that list was when I realized that I was really stuck, and that it wasn't going to change, and that my access these weren't going to be met, but I couldn't really leave because I had children to take care of in schools and things like that. It was just a really debilitating experience I learned a lot about burnout, and just the energy that goes into not having an exchange with your work environment of having this sort of wall placed. It was very, very, very exhausting. And I don't know. I said that's why I said, I think it's really important to start the trajectory of work with it as clear as possible a sense of, you know, what your what your dream job actually is your dream job is not necessarily the one you think it is because you think that you can move into a situation and you can bring what you are to that situation there are a lot of jobs that are just not going to, not going to hear you so the dream job is one that is a keen awareness of your own access needs and a keen awareness of what an organization is going to be able to do with them. Recently, our co-chair of our board, we're going to actually play it tonight but it didn't this seemed like this should this conversation frame this way was going to be more useful, but Matt interviewed me about about work and like my own working experiences and how this compared to other things and anyway how the conversation evolved was really interesting is I was giving examples of like as a as a child growing up, anytime I felt unsafe I would just like cut people off you're an unsafe person cut you off like as a third grader like I just anyway, so that to be in a work situation where I was stuck in the primary breadwinner. I can't leave it's like it's unsafe I don't have my access needs met and to not be able to leave I mean that I've never experienced anything like that in my entire life, and I had no frame of reference for it. And that drove me further into autistic burnout than anything I mean I anyway that's how I got my autism diagnosis, but it was it was that experience of stuckness. And so yeah we talk about like, you know yeah I had a you know a place of privilege of being able to, you know leave leave leave an environment that wasn't a fit for my needs and you know all this but like for for for a year and a half. And at least of like this, like, like, not only am I access needs not being back but I am unsafe. That that is how so many people feel. Lisa says, or sorry, I'm scrolling up CV says I end up using my time with my therapist to help me with the completing paperwork for executive functioning stuff right yeah culture of interdependence. So we'll put David, I agree. Lisa says I think neurodivergent brains have a lot to offer and if we can get the support or if we can put ourselves in the best environment possible, we can able to contribute more great. And, and, and, yes, and Steve, Steve is amazed at the language that you're learning here. Tanya. I also think it goes back I think majority of you saw with me that they tend to look at their disability first before I was able to do the work at home, or the job criteria. I feel a stigma around disability like with autism and because I'm also I'm not only that I'm born with brain damage or too bad to think brain disorders and and more autistic when I think he's old. I don't do it twice or three months of life back in the day. But we know we're so was able body people that can do we can we were able to do things that we can to our level of capacity. But then when it comes to a job provider or seeing as some go for a job. We have to really work very hard to be at that level. The same is normal people but there's nothing normal but you know we have to we have to put out we have to put ourselves more at the forefront. There was point you know we tell I always tell yourself and the I doesn't get me back. You know, I've never actually worked myself for having more three children and stuff and. Yeah, that's working itself. Oh, but I was up there my tour dated later in life that was kicking the guts, which I was born into this world with this, but I had to take myself out the mental piece and realize that I can only do what I can do. But I can, you know, I can also catch up with other things. So it has not been an easy world for some of us where we have to really double check on how we have to do things. We have to remind ourselves sometimes that it's not. It's okay if it's, you know, if we're not going. Right. We're not going to do things what we mentally face me doing but we also have to look after ourselves and I'm wanting a way that every day to my. Yeah, we just have to do what we need to. Thank you Tanya. And you know I think that all anyone can do is do what they can do. And I think that when society gives people the message that you're supposed, you're supposed to do a certain amount of thing, and that you're supposed to do more than you can do, and that there's like a gold standard of what it is that you're supposed to do, like that that's just so bad for health. And I, and I, and I, and I think that, you know, that that that ableism of the, you know, this, all of the messages that that that it is superior to be able to do the thing and to do more than the thing. And I think that, you know, there's, there's, it's, it's just so bad for health, reading a quote in the chat from from Steve who's quoting Ben Mitchell. People in the autism community are most likely to be targeted when you struggle with social pragmatics or so processing speed, you're at the mercy of anyone with even a minimal level of social status. And I, I, they come to a point where they can no longer endure the constant humiliation patronizing from neurotypical culture. Right. And so I think that, again, normalizing safety and normalizing that all people deserve to show up as their true selves and to feel safe in community as their true selves. You know, rather than, you know, you know, I think I think that that that message is not arguable. Like so. So I, I think that, you know, you know, anyway, and also I think it's really important to shift the narrative of like what kids grow up today. Even, you know, kids with typically developing brains, I like to talk about neurodiversity with I don't want anybody thinking that their brain is the default brain because it's just not true there is no default brain. We all do things differently. But most of all now it's the respect that we, that we, that we, that we should be given. We sometimes we don't get the right respect of who we are. It always goes back to that, that word, that disability or that payment that we're dealing with. But, you know, this, we are who we are, this is who we are, but why can't they see it as what we, what we can do, it's not what we can't do, create a federal government stream. Right. So the strength of strengths based lens is, is, is critical. And as we wrap up today, I'm going to, I'm going to read what Elizabeth posted in the chat. And I'll connect it to a to, to, to the bigger picture. So Elizabeth says something that's promising for me is the norm around personal boundaries that appears to be shifting, even amongst neurotypicals. I'm Gen X and we'll put up with crack in a workplace, the millennials and Gen Z and my department say no to things. They also quit when their needs aren't met. I'm seeing turnover among new hires in my workplace. And so the management is starting to notice they don't get a one sided seat of power anymore. So, so all people need to be able to say to say no and I think when we think about, you know, we think about young children. This is where this begins, like you have to practice saying no, and to feel safe saying no, and that and so for so many of us as adults we're learning this for the first time. We're having to, you know, unlearn all of these messages that say that like, you know, the brain rules that say that you can't say no, you. Great. So, so anyway that, but I also just want to say, you know, when we think about, you know, how, how, what why this conversations around neurodiversity and access are so mission critical is that, you know, we have a place where there's so many, employers who are you know they can't fill positions they can't keep employees there's so much turnover. It's like, well did you think if you met people's access needs they might not quit their jobs right like so. So that's I think how this really does benefit everyone to be having these conversations around access needs. And so, so so you know when, when we do a lot of neuro inclusive employment trainings for employers who are looking to, you know, improve their the way that they meet people's access needs. And I think that so much of this is it's a paradigm shift. It's like yeah we teach people practical things that they can do to incorporate universal design principles into everyday life, but this really is you just like, shift to recognize that we all have different brains and if you want people with all different types of brains to be able to access employment, you have to offer everything you're doing in multiple different ways. So there's that. So thank you all so much for this, as always this wonderful conversation. Thank you to everyone who shared your experiences and ideas and thank you all so much for being part of our community. We'll see you next week. We have a community panel on experiences of neurodivergent parents. So we will see you then have a great week. Bye everybody.