 Welcome to the Monday, February the 6th, 2023 meeting of the Montpelier Design Review Committee. We'll let members and staff introduce themselves. Eric Gilbertson, Member. Benjamin Cheney, Member. Meredith Crandall, Staff. Stephen Everett, Member. Martha Smirsky, Member. Member. Your connection is a little rough with audio. You might want to turn your camera off. Okay, at this time we'll let Meredith review the remote meeting procedures. So we do have an applicant on remotely. Some of this little spiel will be for people who are watching the meeting be at work, but there's still some pointers as well for everybody else. I'm going to share my screen. All right. So, for those members of the public viewing tonight's meeting, the work on media you can participate in the design review committee meeting via this platform. You can do that by either typing this link into your web browser. It should take you right into the zoom meeting and it'll just say that the host will admit you shortly and that would be neat. Or you can call into this phone number. Plug in this meeting ID when prompted. And again, I will get a little notice that someone's trying to enter into the meeting and I can let you in. If anyone is having problems accessing the meeting, please email me at M Crandall at Montpelier hyphen BT.org. I will be monitoring my email throughout the meeting for anybody who's trying to get in for if anyone does attend via zoom turning on your video is optional. Please do keep your microphone on mute when you're not speaking this will reduce background noise and reserve the chat function in zoom for troubleshooting or logistics questions please anything substantive we want to be done via audio over either your microphone or your phone. In the event the public is unable to access the meeting it will need to be continued to a time and place certain. I will now hand the meeting back over to the chair. At this time unless anybody has anything else to add, do I hear a motion to approve the agenda from the members. All second. All in favor of the agenda speak your names. Ben. Stephen. Man. Okay, the agenda is approved. We can go to the first applicant for eight summit street. On our applicant team or Bradley for review a replacement of sighting. Is someone team was on remotely. I'm here. I'm not sure what more I need to say. I'm, yeah, hoping to. Yeah, I get this, this gable and wall complete and make a significant energy upgrade in doing so. It's it's currently a two by four wall. And that's all it is. And so I'm, I'd like to put three inches of of styco insulation. This is kind of a new product is a wood based fiber board installation. And it runs just shy of, of our value of three, three per inch. So, so it's good. I think a good air barrier in between layer plywood, another weather barrier, cedar breather, and then finally painted shingles. Kimo is it just that one wall you plan on doing. Yep. And the rest will stay with the vinyl sighting. The vinyl is, is gone at this point. The other, the Eastern gable. I completed during COVID. The first COVID winter. And that's where we have a photograph of team on what you're going to do. Doing the other side identically to that. Exactly. Okay. Thank you. And is that an accurate representation of the color. Yes. Anybody, any members have any questions, comments or suggestions? Looks good to me. Nice job. That's going to say it looks like a significant improvement. Thank you. Both performance wise and appearance wise. It's really nice. Actually, my parents live next door. They're, they're my tenants. And it really, it actually changed everything. It doesn't get as hot in the summer anymore. And they're very comfortable right now. And so, yeah, I'm after, after the other night, I can. Reminded that, that this is really not up to par. The way it is. I'd like to just get it done. Sounds good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We can go through the criteria for the application. Exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings will be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. Additions and alterations to nine historic and I contributing structure shall respect and be compatible with existing patterns and setbacks found in adjacent buildings. And so, I would like to move on contributing structures that overshadowed to manage the story character contribute. Or of adjacent contributing structures are prohibited. This. Application for the change of sighting is acceptable. Just a second. That's fair. That one was a little. Sketchy. That one was a physical record of their time, place and use acceptable. Architectural features, including, but not limited to cornices, windows, shutters, fan lights and tabulator, trim and other forms of molding or character defining detailing, prevailing on the existing building shall be considered in the alteration of a building acceptable. All in favor of the application. Speak your names. I'm a yes. Yes. And Steven. So it's approved five to zero. So team. Oh, we will get that back downstairs and hopefully we'll get that permit issued tomorrow and mail it up to you. Super. Thank you. Thank you all very much. Thank you. I'll sign off now. Okay. Thanks. Thank you and good luck with your project. Thank you very much. Okay. Bye. Bye bye. We can go to the next application. Is for 162 Berry street. On our applicant, Linda beads replacement of windows and siding. Welcome. Describe your project for us. I'm Linda. I'm Linda. Yeah, I mean, that's that's also for just sort of general purposes. Usually she's more for city council. Okay. The project. If you drive down very street very often. I took notice. The little house. Very. It's a more modern structure. It's small. It's a very modern structure. It has hideous gray vinyl siding on it at the moment, which is. It's integrating. So we've been nailing it back. What it was. So we're removing the vinyl siding. One. We're replacing the vinyl siding with. A storm on it. We're replacing that with triple. Little look. Essentially looks the same. The same size. Same size. Yeah. We're not changing the size at all. And then there's a small awning window on the side. That is. Not in good shape. And we're placing that with. A triple pane awning window of the same size. And then we're placing that with. Four inches of insulation, which. The builder really likes the mineral wool board. That's not what I'm familiar with, but we went around and around, but different. Strategies for siding. And this is, this is one that can use. Consistently. And really likes it. It's. It's a rock wall. It's a kind of a. I might not get all the details right because I'm. Remembering what he's told me. It's a kind of a fun. Rock. And so it is completely. Hydrophobic. Cannot get wet. So that seems like. Anyway. So they will put a. A weather barrier on. What does he call it? The weather barrier that will go on. The, the. Whatever you reply, would I assume. Sub. Stratta. And then the weather resistant barrier, four inches of insulation. And then spruce clavards. Over that. And as you see from my. Little drawing. The photograph with my drawings on it. We're adding quite a lot of. You know, a little bit of a. Trim to it to give it to try to give it a little bit of a. Historic look. For that. Street. That's. That's pretty much it. I'm having trouble figuring out where you are exactly. Can you give me some. Well, you know where the senior center is. If you were going toward the hunger mountain from there, it's on the same side of the street. I remember the old lawnmower repair. Yes. Almost across the street from that. Okay. So be on the left. If you're proceeding to the co-op. Yeah, that's right. Thank you. I can also pull it up on the screen. You can see the street. Let me do a quick share screen. There's the building. And then there's headed towards the co-op. To your right. Yeah. Yeah. Towards the co-op. Versus. Heading back. Towards downtown. There will be no shutters. And then there's across. That's great. Thank you. So you're taking the shutters off. The shutters thickening trim around those second story windows. Yeah. Okay. Bold trim all around that will. I think. Give it a much nicer look than shutters. Have the windows on the upper level been replaced prior. They're, they're double paying. They, you know, maybe at some point when we. Recover the cost of this. This bit will improve the windows, but they're actually quite tight. And the builders. They're going to do whatever he's doing so that the windows would be relatively easy to replace at some point. Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah, I'm nice to think ahead. I'm, I'm a planner. That's what this. That's what this house is. We live up an icy hill outside of town right now. And one of these days. We're not going to feel like that's okay. And so we're going to move into town. Yeah. We're going to move into town. Right now it's, it's a rental. Do you have a color picked out for the club? You should have. I included. I pasted on to my little photograph. Some colors. Yeah. This little white. Yeah. The, the siding will be kind of a tan and the trim off white. Yeah. The one that has to be a little bit here. Oh, I see. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. They'll have a, can't remember if the building next door of that building is still that color. It is. Yeah. It'll be a little more almost. There is sort of a green. Or the trim almost makes that main color look more green. The trim is so green. Yeah. I tried to find a color that wasn't. The same as the surrounding houses, but I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Nicely enough. Yeah. There's a lot more sort of. Browns. Good. Thanks for doing your research. That's about the 10th iteration of color scheme. But I kept coming back to that. That's soft. I'll hurt his choices. You're going to live with it for a long time. And there's a lot of it. Yeah. Yeah. Any members have any comments, questions or suggestions? Like she's covered all her bases. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I was just saying. Boom. I think you're going to have to. New. Turn off the speakers on one of your devices. Try it again. Oh. Yeah. Two things connected there that both have their volume on maybe. Feedback loop for yourself. Let's do it. Let's get it. And again, I can go through the criteria for this project as well. Exterior design and materials. New construction or alterations. New design and materials. And compatible with the characteristics of the existing bullet building or other properties in the district. Additions and alterations and nine to nine historic and nine contributing structure show respect and be compatible with existing patterns and setbacks found in adjacent buildings. There are no additions on this. It's just a change of the sighting and window. Acceptable. Okay. I'm just going through the criteria at this point, unless you had something you wanted to add in the, in the additions at the end. So anyway, existing buildings shall be recognized as a physical record of their time, place and use. Acceptable. And that was any, all that there was one more down here, architectural features, including, but not limited to cornices, windows, shutters, fan lights, and tabulator, trim and other forms of molding or character defining. Revealing on the existing building shall be considered in the alteration of a building. Acceptable. So all in favor of the application that's presented speaker. Okay. So the application is approved five to zero. Since you're here. I'm like Timo, I'm going to have you sign the recommendation form. Okay. Just because it's helpful when you're here to have me do that. And we'll be able to issue that from tomorrow. Great. We'll guess as long as I don't know you're both here. You're one of us can do the software. Okay. Although that would be the zoning number. You want to have Michelle about the question about the. So. If you just sign in that block there. We used to get everybody's signature. Because. Everybody would be in person, but. Thank you. With your project. It'll be great. I'm painting everything. Oh yeah. Good luck. I do have just in the reminder on this last one. I do have a seven o'clock DRB meeting tonight that involves at the Mount College of Fine Arts application. So people will start probably coming. Yes. Okay. Seven. So we can just try and stay on task. We'll try to be quick. So again, we'll go to the next application. 155 Northfield street. Portured Valley. Waldorf school. Welcome back, Sandy. You're keeping busy. Describe your project. Very different projects. Yeah. Um, orchard. Of. Valley. A Waldorf school. Owns. Child's garden. Which is an existing. Daycare. Up on. Northfield street. And. They stopped using the building and started to rent space at the Elks Club. The Elks Club leases ending. So they need to get back in. To their building. They need to make some changes to it. For code. And also a major issue of safety. Right now. Children going to the park. I have to cross over the path of cars where cars are parking, which is not great. So they want to reconfigure the parking spot. Um, they also, um, Have, uh, More little children now. So they are expanding their early. Childhood infant. Program. So this change. Is, um, You have the application. Um, is minimal changes on the outside. They want to enclose the open porch. And, um, in doing that, they want to add in, uh, A better exit. On the east side of the building that has. A ramp down and around towards the street. Um, And they. Need to add some parking spaces. They have. Nine teachers. Um, So they're expanding it to them. Maximum allowed. By the city. Um, without. There's a minimum and a maximum for parking lots. So they're, they're able to live within that maximum. Um, After we applied. It became evident that the project is actually in divide design review, which is why it's more than an administrative approval. Um, It really should not be. I talked to Mike Miller about this. I believe he agrees. Um, but it is in fact here now. That's why I'm here now. And, um, So it's been the only reason why it's the only property along Warfield street that's in design review district. Besides the community garden. And the only reason why the two of those are is because they used to be part of national life. And back when I was active. With designer review. They made the gateway West district. What was it 20 or 30 years ago? And because it was all a continuous property, it extended all the way over to this area. It has been subdivided off. And somehow was missed in the last. Revision to the map. So it is. Stuck in design review. Um, So to be clear, the buildings on either side or not in design review. Actually up and down the entire street or not in design review. So, um, I was surprised to see you here on that subject. Yes. Me too. But I think it is important that we. Do what it needs to be done. Because here it is in desire review. Oh, the other question. Yep. Meredith did ask me for photographs. Um, the forum said drawings or photographs. So I'm fine, both. And the other question that seemed to be. A little bit of a friction point was, um. Is this in design review. There needs to be some. Screening. Around the parking lot. I'm actually not in favor of that because I would rather have. The, the playground be visible from the streets. But. Your requirements require a screen. And, um, we have suggested raspberries. Partly because they're food for birds. They're great for butterflies and bees. Um, children like to pick raspberries. And if anyone else has raspberries, you know that they make an extremely dense. Edge. Actually year round. Um, Uh, there was some pushback on that that maybe there needs to be. I personally wouldn't mix anything with raspberries. Very hard to keep. Separated. But, um, They are open to making it a Cedar hedge. If you want, I'm just worried because usually Cedar trees grow up and then you can see through them. And then they're actually. No longer a screen. They're kind of a. Irritating thing. So up to you. And then the standards for the screening. It doesn't have to be something that you can't see. Um, we just, and in the planning department, we just had a couple of questions about the effectiveness of just raspberry bushes, but. It's really something that just it's landscaping is one of those things that's in the DRC's. Per viewing once it comes in. So, you know, we'll, we'll go with whatever you guys recommend or happy with. I, I have a respirator. And, uh, three feet. Of canes grow. They have tried competing against each other. So they'll probably grow seven feet tall. And my experience is a densest hack, but. Um, it, yes, we will just do what you folks want. Uh, they need to start construction. I submit is this application at the end of December, believing that there was at least one hearing in January. This is the first hearing. And they need to start construction like next week, because they have to get. Um, kids in. By the summertime. So. Um, they want to start demolition. Right away. And again, what. Is it that they're going to be demolishing a staircase inside the building that's not under your review? Yeah. So you're going to be closing in an existing porch to make that more of a classroom space. And then adding on some additional ramps and sort of. Decking areas. Um, At the request of a state. Reconfiguring the, the walkways, because there's a, there are a couple of sites in here. One shows existing and one shows the proposed. Um, It's also going to be just fencing in the back that each of us going to sort of, you can see it in that new picture. Submitted today, you can see the fencing in the background. So you said it's going to pretty much match. We're going to match that. Yeah. So it's going to be. You know, same kind of fencing. And the, the siding on the new areas is going to match what's there now. So there's not, you know, There's not a lot of really aesthetic changes, but it still needs to go through. I think I submitted a cut sheet. Yeah. You were kind enough to print it for me. Yeah. So new windows. And the new door. I thought I read something about demolishing a garage or. Oh, I read about that. Actually, thank you. Martha. Thank you ever actually completely. So there is a. Dangerous and derelict garage. Well, they call it the barn. That is going to be torn down. And then there's a smaller structure that they call the garage that they have converted into an outdoor classroom. It's really just a pavilion. And so they're going to rebuild that on the site. Of the barn. And the purpose of that, and it's going to match. So it's just matching existing. The purpose of that is to get. Everything on one side of the. Eastman up into the solar field. And both on the same sites. So everything's on the same property. I don't know what you mean. So the, let me just hold on a second. I'll pull up on the screen. Thank you. The pictures. So the garage is being demolished. And the outside classroom. Both. Yeah. You're right, Steve. That is going to be demolished, but it's going to be replaced in that exact. Configuration. It's going to look exactly the same. Yeah. But go. Where currently this is. Thank you. This is being demolished. As well. This is being demolished, but something that looks. Pretty much like this, but is better construction. Will be built where this is now. Right. So if you look at the site plan that's dated. January 11th. 2023. Some green and yellow highlighting. You can see the new outdoor classroom. Building. You can see the new outdoor classroom. Building. Yes. That's an overlay where it says demo existing bar. So that's that bigger building picture right now. And then. What's being there, that new outdoor classroom is the same footprint as the demo existing after. I think I can share with you besides consolidating where the children play outside. They may want to, at some point in the future. Build. An additional building of school, but I'm not supposed to include that in this application. Because it's future. You're supposed to look at it as it is. But that is why. We don't want construction equipment to be going over the path of children. Yes. So we're trying to get everything. On one side so that we can. Can keep things. Safe. That's the lowest pitch camera rope I've ever seen. Yeah. Isn't that wild? It is a gambrel. I hadn't noticed that slightest change in pitch. It looks like it. So the new building will be on that site. Yep. And we'll look like. Looks like. That. Lean to. Yeah. No. Nothing. Correct. The other building. You're going to need to mute yourself. The other building. Site is a larger than that. Correct. You can see that on our site plan. We have it. That type of style. On the other spot. But smaller. Will it fill the entire. I mean, is there a slab under the other. On our site plan, you can see the dash line for the demo. A couple of able to demo existing barn. And the new classroom is actually going to be at a different angle to run parallel to the slope. So that it fits against the slope better. Okay. And that whole foundation will be taken completely out and fill, you know, whatever is. It'll be smoothed off than. And the site where the. All garages will also be grassed. Yes. What kind of condition is this building in? I had actually haven't even walked in it. They didn't want me to. It's coming down one way or the other. I think pretty soon. With helper on its own. Yeah. And it's really a liability with children in the area. So. Needs to go. I have more questions about the ramp on the front of the building. Has visible from the road. Yep. Some of which is like. What its purpose is. And then I assume. I don't really need to know because I imagine there's a very good purpose for it. But. The. How one might be able to like. It feels tacked on in a very sort of like. On what is a very traditional looking historic. Looking building. And then it feels like a building. And then I don't quite know what can be done to make that. Feel a little more integral. Pain of light. I honestly. So. There are a lot of children who cannot evacuate the building. On their own. Accord. They can't walk. So. They have to be out of the building in like. 50 seconds or something. So what happens. Is they keep strollers by the door. And they throw four kids into the stroller or into a crib. And roll it out. Has to be a ramp. So it's mostly an emergency exit. It is only an emergency exit. Yeah. Well, actually. I'm sorry. And that's not true. I think. That. People can enter. People can enter there. We was only an emergency exit. And now people are entering that way. But it is an emergency exit. Primarily. And is it. It looks as though it's roofed or half of it. And maybe not the part that. The whole thing is. You can't have snow on the ramp. So that's not what's shown in this. At least this elevation. I don't see a room. Cutting in front of those windows. Hey, look. I don't think it'll be quicker to look at yours. In this proposed south elevation. Like draftsman was trying to. Minimize blocking the view. The drawing of the windows. I. Mall for that. But so I don't know how you get a roof on there that doesn't. Block those windows. I think that's why we, we kept it away from the front of the building. I mean, I almost. Wonder. If that ramp could come. Tight to the building. And then have that same roof pitch. Come out over the ramp and then you're not blocking the windows at all. And there isn't that sort of like. There's not a lot of vertical room there. All right. You need the pitch. Right. Yep. You need the extra length for the pitch coming down. Yeah. Yeah. And we were really trying not to modify the porch itself. Yeah. The building's been renovated many times, but it is still. I wasn't through totally thrilled about that. We actually talked about making it like a curve shape around the ramp. But at the end of the day, that seemed like the most straightforward and inconspicuous way to do it. I was thinking of maybe you could. Visualize it as. Like almost like playground equipment, like, you know, it's not a climbing thing. But. You get it a little bit further away from the building, but the owners want to have the path be as. As direct as possible. To the parking lot. If there's a fire. They have to get out. Sure. They can't. I don't know that we have. Really a great. Linions and coming. I didn't want to come off the front of the building. We're trying to. It kind of space out the exits. I think I know the answer to this, but could the ramp go down the other side of the building? We tried. We really wanted it to. But the grade. Drop is fact. I don't know. We really wanted it to. But the grade. Drop is faster than the ramp. Right. I can see that grade drop off here. It's pretty significant. It's my question to there. Yeah. It basically was impossible. Not without spending a lot of money to fill that in. Yeah. You said that the porch is going to be enclosed. So what we're looking at here will be. Right. There's a drawing in this section that Benjamin held up that shows what that front of the porch would look like. With windows. The other question. Hospital put down one of those reading deal. Bores on the ramp. Where they are really expensive, but they might be cheaper than a roof. Um. Well, little feet get. You mean the little bitty great, right? So you're not going to. Look at that, but. Um, the last ramp I looked at. For building in Montpelier was over 70,000. For steel structure. So. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that's possible, but. I don't know that that's going to stay. Ice free all the time. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know either. I mean. My experiences is better to just cover the ramp. I mean, you have to deal with, you're dealing with wheels. Stroller wheels that are kind of small. And down the bottom, it's going to the snow. Just going to build up through it. Right. The great. Well, it would be, it could build up. To a point, but we've put quite a bit of that in. And the current price of that, you know, you know, I don't know if that's possible. It's in the neighborhood of $20, $25 a square foot. And you can get three feet wide sections. Yeah. Six, eight, 10 feet, you know. Long. And what we've done in the past is we just felt a framework. Pressure treated material. Yeah. And then this stuff sits in it. It's so heavy. You don't even need to attach it. It just sits within a frame. It's galvanized. So it never rests. You don't have to do anything to it. Yep. It's zero maintenance. Well, I think the very expensive ones that I was pricing had the whole framework was metal. So, I mean, I'm sure they would be willing to look into it. But if you could leave some room for them in case it is not, you know, it's not. But I'm not sure what, how the floor surface is going to affect the design. Of this in any significant way. Are you just saying that you could avoid. I'm in an effort trying to get rid of the roof. Like I think this drawing is. Not very accurate as to what I'll actually be seeing. Like, I think there would be a roof line that's cutting across. All, all these windows. Right. And even if it is separated away from the building by four feet. In pure elevation, I would, all these windows would be blocked. And I think it's going to look a little tacked on in. Well, I certainly wouldn't want them to build it and then come back to you. Next January asking to put a roof on a metal. Sure. That would really be horrible. They can't do construction once the kids are in. Right. They can't, they don't have to stop having school. I understand why there's such a push to get this done. Yep. I mean, if you could leave. Space in there so that they could make a judgment about the material cost for the ramp and then, you know, encourage them to leave off the roof if possible, but leave some space for them to put it in if they have to. I mean, I'm sure they're open to looking at it. But to box them into something that's unworkable. I hear that. I was worried. It's no matter the roof. That's why it's a way. That's why there's a gap there. Yeah, I hope it is. Yeah. I've got somebody logged in that I just need to check in with to make sure they're actually in the right meeting. If you give me just one second. Okay. I'm sorry. Carsten's and could you unmute yourself? Are you, did you intend to sign into tonight's design review committee meeting? Or were you. The development review board meeting. Um, It's the VCFA one. Yeah. So that meeting doesn't start until seven o'clock. Okay. There's a different link for that one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. And so, uh, come back. I'll see you at seven. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. What's, uh, What kind of work are you thinking about over? I'm going to be at the pitch of the. Ram. Shatter a gable. I was thinking of a gable. But, um, And just, you know, asphalt. Just low pitch room, you know. Yeah. At the pitch of the ramp or at. Yeah. The roof itself would slope down. Parallel. Yes. Slam across. So it would be a continuation. Of the. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes, it would. Yep. Was there any exploration of putting the ramp. On the opposite side of the house. Yes. And the, but it does drop. It does drop away too much on that side. Sorry. We tried. No, that's challenging. That was actually the desired place for it, but. The site doesn't work. It's a shame because then that way you could wrap that. Which roof. Around both sides. Right. And then I'm around. But the great. The great is prohibitive. Sadly, I like that idea too. I haven't thought through the, but if that ramp. Came off that, that level landing that. That square level landing, if it came off, not parallel to the building, but add a little bit of a. Angle closer to the road. Well. Fire safety is not letting us use that door. For the preschool. It was, it was over there and I was trying to get down the side of the building. I did have it. But we. I think. You can go just look through it. You can show it. You talking about. I think I understand what you're talking about, but. I can also try and show on the screen. This. Oh, what that. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about this. That's correct. And I was actually thinking maybe it could even be segmented like a, is a set of playground structures. I think it could even be a, it could even be a, it could even be a, it could even be a, it could even be a, it could even bring it further out. I think you could have that pushback on it. It doesn't make a huge difference. They're trying to get families out closer to the driveway. Yeah. It's possible. It would be the same distance to the driveway. Well, it's. Farther to the park. But, you know, I. To the car. Yeah. So if you folks. So Ben, you're talking about. Angle it more like this. Yeah. I think you could definitely require that. I don't know that I have to require anything. I'm more exploring it as. The reason why I, that's how I had it. When first it went over there. We went through a number of design iterations on this. I had it at more of an angle and then I even had it as a segment. And their concern was that it's farther away to a place of safety. So I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing for the children. Because you need to then walk the kids up the driveway to get over here to a bigger like cloud space where fire trucks can still get up here in emergency vehicles. I just have real concerns about that being like the thing that is presented to the street every time you drive by is this just. Well, one reason why I was only half joking about paint is I think that will help if it's a different color from the. The way that you get the drawing. Whatever it's just bringing it straight out. Then they still have so far from the stroller with kids. I don't. They need to get towards the driveway. Yeah. If it goes straight out, they still have to get over here and then back up to here. Cause this is like for the emergency exit and for this is sometimes an entrance to the infant room. Cause this whole area is going to be the infant like sleeping area. It's going to make parents like potentially go down and go in. I don't quite understand why that. You know, if you extended that. Just straight from the building and not turn, not turn the corner, right? Cause you'd end up on Northfield street. Cause it has to come out here and go down. Yeah. So then it, so where our marriage little hand is now, which is, I think that's a great thing here. If you got the same distance as the rest of the ramp. It's going to be like, it's going to be like, it's going to be like going towards the street. Right there. But you're not really ending up anywhere that's useful to anybody. That's the problem. Yeah. So, I mean, the compromise might be the 45 degree angle that Ben suggested. The only reason why it's drawn it than the parallel. Is because that's what Waldorf thought was best for their parents and for their children. So the ramp has to go. Four four and so was on your drawing. Thank you. You could do a, a, a. This is a shed picture. It would, it would be a minimum cutoff. Yep. Of the windows. Yep. Just as sleek as possible. Yep. Hold, hold the ramp tight to the building. And just with the ever so slight, like an eighth of an inch of foot. Membrane. So that anything draining off of the porch would lay on the membrane and it would be continue. You wouldn't have any. The windows are very high up towards the roof. So there's not a lot of room for more pitch. It would have to be another 40. It would have to be another 40 feet of pitch. One eighth of an inch in a foot. If you're around. Four feet. Four feet times that. It's a half an inch. Yep. Maybe it would work. I mean, it's going to be, the new roof is going to be engineered for more load. So a snow. If, if that stops snow and water from coming off, at least it would be stronger. Then it is now. It's going to be the next stretch that's in front of the building. Be roofless. I mean, I think if you can just. Give a couple of things that would be more acceptable. I do not want to come back. In however many weeks you next meet. We need to get a permit. So I don't know how you want to do this. I just want to give them a couple of reasonable. Things and let them choose from that. That would be helpful. I'm sorry. Let's go ahead. Yeah. Do you want to try to email me your comment? And then I'll still have it for the record because it'll be email. And I can read it to Steve and put it up on the screen. I don't know if that helps. I like you. I'm going to get a little bit more into the audio. I'm kind of making it a little bit funky with your audio where it's echoing. I mean, I'm not convinced that my idea. Turning it at the angle really. Solves much of my concerns. About having the. I think it helps. I think it makes it feel a little. Little bit better, but I still think. If you're putting a roof over it, it's going to block those windows and look a little awkward on the front of that building. of whatever the kind of like ADA grading that would allow moisture to pass through it so that maybe you could omit the roof. We put this in some kind of a priority. Alternative one is the grading. That's our first choice, the second choice. Yeah, what I'm thinking is there's a very low pitch, single-pitched flat-rope that almost almost don't pitch to a pitch so the water would run and run away from the building that way. The other way, you're running water towards the building anyway, a very low pitch. Well, you also can't run water to the bottom of the ramp. Right. It has to be, it has to shed. Right, I just think you're thinking of a center of rough as you can do. Yeah, you can definitely put in options in order of priority about this one issue where it's like preferred next option and then final option. The grate would eliminate the rough if that fades. So that seems like that's your first choice. And then you put in very minimal rough, very thin low-pitched rough, that would be, it doesn't eliminate the problem. And to be clear, we're talking about this section that's literally in front of the building. You're right. Your note is worried about the side section. So if you could make that clear, that makes a difference too. And it would functionally pitching the water away from the building would be better anyway, even if you battled out. I do have another option from Liz. Thank you, Liz, for sending me the chat. And I do have a way to save chats to be able to print them out. Liz's idea and another thing that we could throw in there, maybe for an option, is adding some screening in front of just that ramp part to soften the visual impact. It's just more raspberries or cedar trees, although she said, do you really like cedar? And I know you'd also don't want to block the light getting into those windows. So potentially some raspberries. It was one of her ideas, although I don't know if that would work with doing anything about the roof, but it would still maybe soften the impact a little. That's a great idea. Thank you, Liz. It's a very large tree, as you can see on the front of the property. So it would need to be something that would be OK in the shade. But I can think of some things that would work better. Yeah, I think landscaping would help a lot, rather than just having a ramp stuck on there. That's very good, which I thought of suggesting that myself. But yeah. Thank you, Liz. That was a really good idea, Liz. I might actually pull it up on the screen. I've got a Google image, just street view of from a little distance here so that I've got up there. So you can see the tree she's talking about, right? This is the way to read anyone. Yeah, and so this will be enclosed. And then the ramp will come out here and go across here. And so, yeah, if you put some some shrubbery or something here, especially because the ramp with the roof part doesn't go across that whole line. It only goes across part of that porch, right? It won't be quite as. As noticeable if there's a little extra plantings here. This angle helps show that if it comes out at 45 degrees or perpendicular to Northfield Street, it actually makes the ramp longer because the grade is dropping. So it kind of, at 45 degrees, it actually would end up covering more of the building as you're going south on Northfield Street. It also just puts them even farther away from. I think the Marinists have got to help me with this. And in terms of the demolition of the barn, I think we need some kind of documentation about the condition. No, because it's not on the historic register. Under ripped. Yeah, it's there. I double checked and I checked the state. These aren't enlisted on the state or the federal registers. Yeah. See how this barn. Yeah, I can't figure out if it was used for vehicles or for animals. Strange. So anyway, we've got several options. The first option is to an option to install a galvanized steel grating for the floor of the ramps where needed to minimize snow, ice, water, collection on the ramp. Number two, there's an option to install the ramp attached to or very close to the existing porch, whether without a minimum pitched roof over it with a membrane roof covering, which could suffice. Obviously, there may be some more, depending on the depth of snow, some removal that might have to be done. But the roof that's there, it's showing on the proposed east elevation. That roof is so flat it would require it anyway. And you could take the existing porch roof and run it down and do a membrane roof. Again, plumbing pipe is installed with an eighth of an inch per foot pitch. And obviously, that doesn't do much for snow, but any water will run off of that. So it would not be an issue in most of the seasons, depending on what the heck our weather is going to be in the future. And the third option was the 45 degree exit. Right, that's right. I think there's an option tool of using a very low pitched roof on the ramp that is the existing location. Maybe that could be three and the 45 degree one could be number four. And I don't know that it needs to be 45 degrees. It could be 15 degrees. It could be 20 degrees. And then the last option was Liz's of. Which is sort of a separate additional option. Yeah, add some screening. Mix and match options. Yeah, mix and match options. Liz's option could attach to any one of these other options. Or even go with the original just to make the original. If all of these others are just prohibitively expensive for some reason, even just adding the screening would probably help. Then the screening would help. It wouldn't solve the roof cutting across the windows. No, it helps. Sometimes you can't solve problems. No. That and I mean, this is a fairly big job. This is the only thing you guys are really debating. We're doing pretty good. The number one option is talking about the galvanized grate. But that option not have a roof at all. You could it does anything about the roof because you don't necessarily need one. But that point of the grade is to try to eliminate the roof. That's what I was thinking. It doesn't really say that doesn't say it specifically. So maybe just a minute and again, they know. Wired or something with no roof required. Awesome. I'll take your exact quote. I understand this is childcare facility and there's like all kinds of rules that we don't know anything about. And so clearly those are going to supersede this. We're just making our hopes and dreams made clear. But the only issue with the grading is that it doesn't work well with people with spike heels. But I doubt most of the daycare providers there would be. Well, I'm certain with the ADA grading, which is much narrower. Yes, that that's the standard galvanized is about an inch spread. And they do make one that's much less than that. What is that quarter inch? The only issue with the quarter inch is that it doesn't shed snow as easily. Snow and ice is easily as the one inch is really the ideal for winter weather. Yes, that's a few very tiny feet, new walkers, but anyways. I think we need to put a sense in there about the barn being demolished, that being not on the National Register just so goes as far as the record that people would look at. The other thing, did you know that a D8 caterpillar has less of a pressure on the ground than a high yield standard? I wouldn't dare comment on that and maybe take it the wrong way. An average person with spike heels, square pounds per square inch is greater than a large piece of machinery. Oh, yeah. Well, you'll notice you never catch me in actual little bitty heels. I grew up in Vermont. I don't wear that loose. This may betray my age, but in the early 70s, the stortices were prohibited from wearing stiletto heels because of that. They were puncturing the floors of the airplanes. The way to find rotten spots. We just added the note that the accessory structures to be demolished turn out on the National Register. Awesome. We just got done with a court case on that. Yeah, people look correct to that. Yep. Nope, that was good. Yeah, everybody will maybe not design review so much. The air be all getting a briefing from me on that case. OK, with those three options and the note about not being on the National Register for the accessory structures to be demolished, we'll go through the criteria. Exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings shall be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. Actually, I need to add a fourth option that they can add additional screening in front of the ramp wherever the final location, wherever it's located. But I'll add that after we go through this. Additions and alterations to non-historic and non-contributing structures shall respect and be compatible with existing patterns and setbacks found in adjacent buildings. New additions on non-historic and non-contributing structures that overshadow or diminish the historic character of adjacent contributing structures are prohibited. That is acceptable. Existing buildings shall be recognized as a physical record of their time, place, and use. Acceptable. Proposed landscaping shall be compatible with neighborhood, the neighborhood, and the site on which the project's located. And again, you have some proposed screening for the parking area. And unless anybody wants to add anything else, we will leave it up to your judgment as to what is appropriate for the site. And again, as Meredith said, it doesn't have to totally block it, but just distract from it. My one comment on that is I like the concept of the raspberries. I'm wondering if there is proposed any sort of structure or arbor type thing that they would be growing on or whether they would just have because I think having some sort of contained architectural sort of. So mine, I was going to leave that to them. But there's plenty of raspberry bushes. I mean, you just mow them to keep them from spreading. They're not internet supported. Right. But if we're asking them to be a screen having. Yeah, I mean, it's up to you if you're going to make that a suggestion or a requirement. I'm going to make it a suggestion, not a requirement. Yeah, it's a good suggestion. You know, some sort of trellis. It's called trellis or support structures. Yeah, it's actually wire on. Yeah, I mean, that's what I have at my house. That's a way of doing it. 15 open to interpretation. So some form of support structure for the raspberries to keep them in a more vertical orientation, something like that helps keep the mice from eating the raspberries too. And it just makes them look a little bit more intentional. Yeah. I just said proposed landscape screening may be trellis to maintain maximum screening. Location and appearance of all utilities, mechanical equipment, trash storage, and fencing shall be cited to minimize adverse visual impact or adequately and appropriately screened from public view acceptable. Alterations to buildings called for by public safety, accessibility, and fire codes shall be designed to maintain the character of the construction materials and features to the maximum event, extent, feasible, acceptable. Proportion, compatibility of relationship between width and height of facades as well as relationship of width to height of windows and doors, acceptable. Rhythm, visual patterns established by the alterations of solid walls and openings, windows and doors, and the facade of the building shall create a rhythm, acceptable. Roof shape and equipment. Consider similarity or compatibility with the roof shapes in immediate area. Conceal rooftop equipment and features on flat roofs from eye level view from adjacent public rights of way and from the ground level of any adjacent properties. Acceptable. Roof drainage systems. Roof drainage systems. Gotters anywhere or not? I'll just say N-A on that one. Perfect. Yeah, that was what I left because I couldn't figure out if you knew better. And then landscaping, screening, and site furnishings, projects within the design review or relay district and subject to the landscaping requirements in section 3203 shall consider the following. Site furnishings including fencing, seating, and other types of site furniture visible from the street or side yards. Does landscaping obscure or undermine key architectural patterns or elements on historic buildings? Mechanical equipment screening. All of those acceptable. And that was all. And again, our options were again to install the galvanized steel grating for floor of the ramps where needed to minimize snow ice water collection on ramp with no roofing required. Option to install the ramp attached or very close to the existing porch with or without a minimum pitch roof over a membrane with a membrane roof covering. And then an option to install a minimum pitched roof over the proposed ramp location which is away from the building. This one. We're going to get new accessory structure. The classroom. Okay. Sorry. Nope, sorry. New accessory buildings or structures will be located within either the side yard or rear yard and shall not visually disrupt the streetscape or affect the integrity of the existing building or proposed new building that was also acceptable. And then again, the landscaping may be installed on the street side of the ramp to minimize its appearance as well if needed. And then again, the proposed landscape screening may be trellised on that parking lot screening. All in favor. Speak your names. Steve. Liz. Okay. A lot of Liz votes. She voted twice. We got a list first meeting four times. So. Are you comfortable signing this with all those different options in there? Okay, I am. Great. And then that way we can get that. The long nodders in the office tomorrow and where I can wrestle with the software we can get all that. The building permit issued tomorrow, I think. Well, yours we have to do an administrative site plan report. So yours might take a little bit longer than tomorrow. So we're going to do another layer of paperwork. Okay. But that will be the building permit associated with this too? There are. No. Because this is state building permit. Michelle has like honorary. Wait, she still has to review stuff though, right? I have to pay some amount to you. But she doesn't review anything at all, Stan. She just gets courtesy visit. As far as I understand. I don't know. Because this is educational, which is different from some others where we. Right. And there's still have to review something. So. But yeah, I'll figure it out. It's understand. Hopefully we'll get it tomorrow. But it might be later this week. Okay. So yeah, if you want to just, it should be pens up there if you want to sign your other applicant. Thank you, Eric. See you. So take care of yourself. Great. Yes, I think you know what, it's not, I will. Take care. Thank you very much. Thank you, Andy. Thank you. Good luck with your project. Bye. And goodbye. So we. Eric. We can't do the December 5th, because I wasn't there. We can do January. January the 3rd. Does anybody have anything to add or amend to that one? I move to accept it as it's written. We'll hear a second. I'll second it. All in favor of the minutes of January the 3rd. Speak your names. Karen. Martha. And Steve. That one is approved. Awesome. So the quick little other business, that's what we're moving on to. Does anybody have any other business? So just a quick little note. Anybody who was aware of the application in permit. Well, yeah, application that was. Submitted to move the historic carriage burn at 14 Liberty street. Part of that project was also demolishing an attached shed. So that had was both of those are mentioned in the listing of that barn on the National Historic Register. So it had to go through DRB for approval to get the shed demolished. It got appealed to the environmental court and we just got a decision on that last week. The environmental court has actually approved the demolition and the moving the shed and thrown out the neighbors said no to all the neighbors appeal arguments. It could theoretically be appealed to the Supreme Court. We'll see. The Vermont Supreme Court. The really interesting thing is that the court approved of the permit application on the basis of the fact that the carriage burn was historic and that the city plan puts value and emphasis on retention and rehabilitation of historic structures within the city of Montpelier. And so doing something to save that barn which moving it is necessary to save it was in the public's interest. So that it was a different argument and different analysis of the regs than what the board used. But it was a really interesting way to look at it and not something that anybody had really argued before the board. So. Interesting. It was interesting and gives everybody a new way to look at that particular provision that we have. When they move the existing structure and literally pick it up and move in or do they have to tear it down and rebuild it? No, no. They will place the plan is to demolish the shed, build a foundation for the barn because the barn doesn't actually have a foundation. Lift the barn up, put it on that foundation and a new location where right now it's about, its back wall is maybe a foot from the other wall on a neighboring property so you cannot get in there to do maintenance and one of the roofs may actually be touching another building's roof. And so the only way to get in and fix the rotting cells and repair the whole thing is to move it. And so I'm hoping that all, I hope it doesn't get a field and I hope it all happens. This has been a really long road for the property owner. What kind of a building is it? It's a, no, it's a multi-story carriage barn. It's a really neat old carriage barn that's been used mostly for just some small storage where they can as it's been, as they've been having concerns with it. There's no one living in there. There's no one living in there. Nope, the property owner lives on site in their house and then there's an accessory apartment in the main house. There's no plans to convert the barn to living just to use it for storage. And maybe once it's in a good spot, have a car park in it but it's a pretty neat building and there's been there a long time. I don't understand how in some cases they built buildings so close to each other. There's a building up on Upper East State Street and literally there's two feet. How do you even get in there to paint? Well, that's part of the problem. Like they haven't been able to do any of that on the barn. I don't know, I think, I don't know what they've got on the other. You can't imagine the other structures while in a very good condition because you haven't been able to do anything there since the 1800s. Being able to move it just seems like a logical way to maintain it. Yep, yep. So, hopefully, let's stay up. Very interesting. Put a foundation under it when it has been done. No, that's huge. It's really huge. I'm hoping it all happens. Anyone have anything else or do I hear a motion to adjourn? I will adjourn. I will second. All in favor, speak your names. Good. Steve. Well, thank you. Thank you. Meeting is adjourned. Thank you all. Thank you. Next meeting is on a Tuesday, Tuesday, February 21st.