 For me I've worked in the documentary space as a cinematographer and as a associate producer but both times I came into the documentary when it was already like running under steam you know I came in under principal photography and right now the hardest part that I'm dealing with in my own documentary is the pre-production phase in just getting this thing off the ground. For me that's been the hardest part and mostly because you know this thing is still so nebulous that it can change shape at any point and I wonder with how many films you've created do you still struggle with that in shaping your films or do you tend to come in with a clear concise idea? Well to sort of backdate a little bit on that those success of those early films having success is a dangerous thing for a creative because that causes you to create a formula and just sort of repeat what you think the fans want and so that took me a little while to break that sort of mold and really get rid of that sort of expectations of what people want it and make it something that I want to make and so that took a little while but once I got there then coming up with the idea and coming up with that process is the fun part and the exciting part and just so much goes with that I feel like I'm not tired during that part. Where I get tired is actually figuring out the financial side of it and how to actually make those projects. I currently work with National Geographics and making documentaries for saving animals in different regions and we did one called Save This Rhino and then another one called Save This Shark. The secrets of those ones were figuring out the distribution beforehand and then selling in sponsors on the back end of that. So we got distribution with Nat Geo then we could go back to Land Rover and Canon and all these other brands to help fund it because TV shows generally don't pay enough to make it where anybody's really making money on them. So the idea first distribution then that helps with the funding is sort of my recipe with that. That's an area that I'm more familiar with in terms of because I spent a lot of my time early on in my career in the television world and you're right it was coming up with the idea and then we would pitch it to networks and then they would kind of take care of the the back-end deals and all that stuff and then we just had to worry about actually making the show. So it's interesting to hear that even in your own experience it's much the same. It's helpful having Nat Geo as a partner. They can reach a very wide audience and the name instantly lends credibility to the project and that's that's something I'm struggling with right now is that no one has heard of me so they don't necessarily have anything to go on when I'm like hey I'm doing a documentary on this I'd like to discuss this and that with you and they're like okay cool. Yeah you know like I've come into a lot of those Roblox too and what I just sort of do is just start making it and then people sort of jump on you know like make a trailer even though you barely have enough footage to do that or build the first scene and then people that see that your skills and that usually helps when things hit a Roblox you got to keep pushing. Sure yeah it's funny you say that like so I do real estate development and I've done some startups and one of the things that I didn't realize in my life until doing this podcast and talking to people like you was there's like a theme and the theme is once someone has done enough things like once they've put enough energy into it there's a momentum that as the person in the driver's seat you never feel the momentum right because you got the steering wheel and so you don't actually know how fast you're going but at the end of the day it's like you've actually created a real momentum and without knowing it it's actually easier like like you're saying like just little things like create a trailer create a pitch deck right and these things start to take a life of its own and it sounds so frufru because we get a lot of people like what's the tactic what's the skill what's the thing and it's like you're starting from a wrong place right don't solve for the thing just start just start with the work just do the work and then it's like it's like in the Navy Seals they say like make your world really small you know focus on the one thing you need to focus because focusing on the whole thing like funding editing releasing you're gonna get into a place where you're just depressed because you can't do all that on the first day that's right I like the metaphor of like pushing a big stone up a mountain and the stones way too big to push and if you're just sitting in front of it just I give up I can't do this then it's done but if you're just trying and people are walking by and they see you pushing they're gonna jump in and help and that sort of energy is I find true with all these things you need to really just give it your best push and then people jump in behind you so true and I love what you said about the honesty thing around like you don't want to get caught as a creative doing something that gets you a likes or I think that's something like we're here we are we're releasing on YouTube we're talking entrepreneurs about I think like high-level reality is kind of the way I look at it and there's a lot of other channels that they'll do like reaction videos to anything you know and those and those videos get so much so many hits like oh my thoughts on Trump doing this and it's so silly to me it's like let's let's focus on substance but to that end it's harder because you're almost choosing to grow in an honest way but in some in some way it's also slower because you're not going into the human nature of like clickbait but to me it like I like actually prefer it but it can be difficult I think as a creative sometimes I think as a creative we should be honest with our intentions and also be vulnerable and really be yeah just conscious of who we are and be okay with sharing that with the world and and whether that gets rejected or accepted so that's a little scary for some people I totally agree