 Well, welcome everyone. My name is Andres Hake, and I'm the director of the Advanced Architectural Design Program at Columbia G-SAP. It's an incredible, immense pleasure to welcome Cecilia Vicuña, who in my opinion is definitely one of the most important person on earth now, her work and her voice is so relevant. And she's been, it's been very relevant in the last decades, for a long, long time. I still remember the first time I saw the work that Cecilia started doing in the 1970s with the Salvador Allende government, the democratic government was dedicated to a coup d'etat, a very tragic moment. And Cecilia was inventing this way for art to be relevant in that discussion to inventions like the Palabras Armas and this this moment, which also the struggles of dictatorship, military dictatorship in Cecilia's mind was also connected with sexism, with questions that have to do with the violence of nature. So it was anticipating what her voice would be doing in the following decades in an amazing way. There's works that definitely will never, that change probably what we think of humanity and culture and nature forever, like the, of course, the menstrual kippus, but not only that, if you think of movies like Paracas or the text that Cecilia's been writing, or the paintings, the angel of menstruation, the text on the Mapuches, choosing the feather as well, like all that is an immense body of work that for me, it's not only important, but also at the personal level, something that allowed us to attune together the state of things. And I think that this is incredible. Also, I want to say that Cecilia has also invented a way to and enacted a way of being activists to art. And I remember, for instance, all the work that she did with art is for democracy, or the entire series of Chile and Tehran, and the work that she keeps doing and keeps doing all the time. This is a very unique session. I know how important it is to have Cecilia Bicunha here, so I'm really happy to be sharing this with all of you. And of course, this session is being, it's a spot of the arguments lecture series is co-curated by CLC Chen and myself, CLC here in the, in, of course, in the call that it's been doing this incredible work over the years in making possible arguments and thinking and conceptualizing arguments. And with the support, of course, administrative support of Nicholas Roberts and Sonia Marshall, and also the graphic design of Laura Combs. But of course, this is possible also through the generosity of Cecilia, of course, and the participation of all the students, the AED students, the AED arguments instructors, and among the arguments instructors that are in this incredible work of vigilance on the political dimension of art and architecture. I am happy that today's Oscar Arnoson, who is introducing Cecilia, will be introducing Cecilia. And he will be, Oscar will be joined by Darryl Cobb in moderating the following debate with the support of Diana Verankova and Elliot Sturdevant. And this is incredible moment. And I don't think I should waste more time. I would like to hand it to Oscar to introduce Cecilia. Thank you, Andres. I acknowledge that Columbia University is on the traditional territory of the Lenape people. The Lenape people lived in the area that is now known as New Jersey and parts of what is now Pennsylvania, New York, Delaware and Connecticut. The Lenape burned clearings for their towns and camps alongside small streams. They fashioned wood and stone tools and grew corn, beans and gourds. They built longhouses at centers of clearings covered with bark sheets and grass mats on bent holes dug into the ground. They were a matrilineal society centered around successive generations of women who served as the foundation of Lenape society. They tilled the soil, raised the young, and managed the affairs of the home. The Lenape were, in one historian's words, a nation of women. Men were mobile. They hunted and gathered and moved into different clearings at various points in their lives outside of their lineages to prevent incest. The Lenape's political and spiritual leaders were satians who helped govern this egalitarian people by an arduous process of consensus to organize production, distribute goods, and mediate disputes. The Lenape who inhabited the area between Manhattan and Minnesic islands on the Delaware numbered between 10,000 and 30,000 people at the time of initial contact with Europeans in the early 17th century. But by the beginning of the 19th century, there were no Lenape's left on the traditional territory, having relocated first to the Ohio Valley and subsequently further west, eventually to Oklahoma and Ontario, Canada. I therefore acknowledge that Columbia University is on the traditional territory of the Lenape people. Founded as King's College on October 31, 1754, a little over a century after the Lenape supposedly sold Manhattan to the Dutch, the college survived the American Revolution and was rechristened Columbia University in 1784 to emphasize its new world outlook. It relocated to its current location in 1897, seven years after the closure of the American frontier, at which point the Lenape were long gone in any recognizable fashion. It is therefore a double injustice that the university is named after Christopher Columbus, whose disastrous contact with already settled land in what is now known as America, initiated a process of settler colonialism that has yet to be turned around. This march of settler colonialism that began with the colonization of the Americas provides models and legitimizes practices that are still in play across the world today, most egregiously on display most recently in Palestine, where similar Zionist principles of expropriation and violence are legitimized in the name of Western civilization and an exclusive liberal democracy that denies half of the land's inhabitants their rights and maintains them in a state of apartheid. Now, I give such a lengthy preamble at the risk of detracting from the attention of our speaker today precisely because it seems to me that our speaker Cecilia Vicunia and her life's work is an especially potent lens to examine not only our position on the land Columbia University stands, but also the times in which we live and our roles as architectural students, practitioners and educators in these times. Vicunia is a poet, artist, filmmaker, and activist whose work addresses urgent contemporary problems, ecological destruction, human rights, and cultural homogenization. Despite the apparent timeliness of these problems, she has engaged with them since the beginning of her career as a teenager in Santiago de Chile in the 60s. Perhaps these timely concerns are timeless after all and forms such as this have simply lacked an engagement. Now, while preparing to give this introduction of Vicunia and her work, I listened to her read her poetry. I was therefore grateful to see that she shared her sound piece menstruating a part of e-flux and the 13 Shanghai Biennial series wet togetherness with the students so they would know what I am about to talk about. In menstruating, Vicunia performs a piece of poetry for lack of a better term. Poetry often traffics an ambiguity. You have to perform it to give it meaning. Reading a poem is interpreting that poem not unlike how in her instruction manual for Kangkani Kipu that she shared with us, Vicunia tells us that, and I quote, Kangkani Kipu may be a command or a plea depending on the tone of voice. When faced with reading the phrase Kangkani Kipu out loud, I am forced to choose to read it as either a command or a plea. Begin to not, begin to not. This indeterminacy of speech is what orality means for Vicunia. She sees orality as the indigenous counterpart to the coloniality of writing. Indigenous language is colonized through writing. In a world of struggling Indigenous languages dominated by a few master languages, it is all too easy to assume that preserving them through writing might paradoxically render them extinct, but in fact she proves this is not the case. As Vicunia's reading of her poems proves, this logic can work both ways. If you can colonize speech through writing, poetry can destabilize this writing. The poet can use written language against itself by instilling it with ambiguity. If the colonizer can colonize Indigenous speech through writing, the native can take the reins of that very writing to create new hybrids. This seems to me to be what she is suggesting through her attention to the Kipu. Now please correct me if I'm wrong, Cecilia, but as far as I can see through my own perfunctory research scholars presume to have a good idea about what Kipus did and how they worked, but they don't know how to decipher them fully. They do not know what they mean or even how they mean, they only know that they mean. So most likely, most likely they did not do much more than record keeping, excuse me, although some claim that they amounted to a written language. Now Vicunia's of despite its remarkable internal consistency consists of an unusually wide range of outputs that could be categorized as installations, performances, paintings, poems, films and sculpture. Vicunia's sculptures, which she terms picarios, are perhaps the most consistent category of her art. The gun in 1966 as sculptured, the sculptures gathered on the beach from sticks and stones and feathers, they're a way of communicating with their surroundings, in her words collaborating with the elements, be it at the beach or at the street. Vicunia's first picario now destroyed presumably was the Kipu that remembers nothing, an empty cord. It was a Kipu without a knot, an open channel of pure potentiality, speech without writing. All of her Kipus since have been variations on this picario, the one she shares with us today. Kankani Kipu made of unspun wool is just such an open channel. Instead of being woven into threads and knotted with Kipus, it has somewhat cruelly been appropriated and even been defaced by floating words as she calls it. The negative interpretation is that the writing has jammed the channel, the written language pins the potentiality of the fleece down, the book binding renders it all too literal and transportable to the colonial library. But the positive reading is that the fleece can still be spun, still be embellished by Kipu, the Kipu might still speak. This is the utopian project of this celebration of orality as indigenous decolonizing speech. It suggests that in every picario there is an indigenous world to be sprung, under the pavement, a clearing and a spring. In an interview, Vicunia says of her picarios and I quote, I look at things backwards as they're going to look when I'm gone. I have a very intense feeling that what we do is already the remains of what we're doing, the dead water, our poems. I try to bring awareness of what we are leaving so that by picking things up I'm conscious of what has been thrown away but is staying, unquote. The buildings at Columbia University's Morningside campus are perversely occupying the island of Manhattan for some of us, including myself as avatars while I sit in the comfort of my home in Reykjavik, Iceland. To which extent are these buildings already merely the remains of what we're doing? To which extent are the buildings you as aspiring architects will build in your lives already picarios and remains? What would it mean to design with Vicunia, designing by looking at things backwards? As we collectively try to answer these questions with Vicunia's help, on this the most colonized corner of Manhattan, literally called Columbia University, it should be the aspiration to decolonize, to decolonize, and to oralize. This is not to evoke a facile reveling in a recombining of Manhattan, a kind of lennapization without lennapies. Lennapies, excuse me, but perhaps Vicunia's work can at least help us find a way to transform what remains. If not to return it to the Lennapies, at least use what remains to advocate on their behalf and in their name. I welcome Cecilia Vicunia. Thank you. Gracias Oscar. Thank you very much. Do you hear me well? Is that okay? Should I come closer? Is that okay? It's very moving for me to be with you all because I began my life, studying my life as a sort of idol after high school, entering architecture school. And yet this is the first, the very first time an architecture school or group invites me to speak and think of my work in relation to architecture. So I was very attached and moved by this sort of circle and the year I entered this architecture school is a very important year for my life, which is 1966. So I wanted to share with you some loose notes precisely because of what you said Oscar, that I don't believe in preparedness. And so I didn't actually prepare very much, but throughout the days, as Andres invited me, I was taking some silly notes. And so I have a bunch of disconnected silly notes here and I will begin reading them. So I wanted to read to you, oh where did he go? Now that's another thing that I prepare things and then I look. No, here it is. I found this text, which I don't know when I wrote and it is in Spanish. And I thought that it was a good way for me to share with you the pain of not having these works ever translated. Therefore, I have to translate them as I go, which is always a painful experience, but it locates me in that space, which is the same space from which the kippus and the precarius emerge, which is that as I look at them, recalling the first time I ever looked at them in the way I have learned to look at them, it was sensing their pain and their pain as a form of transformative beauty. And just say those words, put me again in the state of being in front of a little basurita, a piece of debris that has traveled through the ocean, beaten up by the waves and whatever disaster has hit a forest or has hit, you know, any place. So what we encounter is the remains again of the pain, but the pain that finds the way to transform itself. It is called Pupilas Transitivas, which is a title almost impossible to translate, because Pupilas is the pupil of the eye. But here in this phrase, the pupils have become a verb, verb, verb of course in Spanish is to see. So it is like the act of the eye seeing becomes a transitive action. And when I thought of that, I had to look up the definition of transitive in the dictionary, because most people like me use it without really knowing what it says. And I was surprised to encounter in the Marian Webster this definition. It says, characterized by having or containing a direct object, transitive verb, being or relating to a relation. Look at that phrase, being or relating to a relation with the property that if the relation holds between a first element and a second and between the second element and a third, it holds between the first and third elements equally is a transitive relation. And I thought, fuck, this is like the definition of precarious, you know. And so what is it in us that picks a name? Now the text and I will translate as I go. It says, Pupilas Transitivas escuchan su movimiento, su continuo contraerse y expandirse arterial. La defensa mínima de los sentidos contra la red electrónica escuchar con las pupilas alertas subtilar. Wow, I don't think I can translate that, but we'll try. It says, transitive pupils of the eye listen to their own movement, their continuous contraction and expansion like in artery movement. This is the minimal defense of the senses against the electronic network. To hear with the pupils awake to their detilar. How could you say that? Like the twinkling of a star. That's the movement of the pupil of the eye behaves very much like a star. escuchar con los dedos o ir con los ojos expandir el sentir es atender a la tierra abandonar la destrucción. To listen with the fingers to hear with the eyes it is to expand feeling to tend to the earth to abandon its destruction. Space wishes to be loved understood as the real temple. Space and time go inside for a moment creating an intersection and interaction that's where we exist contemplating the double joy of common penetration. El objeto es visión una entrada a otro mundo a otro espacio de percepción. The object is vision it is entering into another world another space of perception and sabido ser invisibles porque son el legado de otra percepción. Now I am saying that the objects have learned to be invisible because they are the legacy of another form of perception. They exist before taking place. They are there to disorient the technology of destruction. Particularly like that line I suppose that's why I picked this text for you that these precarious beings are there to disorient the technology of destruction. La basura habla del pasado que vendrá. Garbage three remains speak of the past that will come. At all the land, las aguas, defusions, locusts flashed out. No hay un out. Todo es la tierra. Where do they go? The waters in a water shed? What is it for flashing out? There is no out in this earth. Everything is in everything is the earth. La última generación que se bañó en el mar entendió su oleaje y abrió los ojos bajo el agua. And here it is not known if this line refers to our bodies being the bodies of perhaps the last generation able to bathe in the sea to play with the waves the last generation that opens our pupils under the water. I say this because as water as the ocean is dying and becoming more and more toxic around the world we don't know when this time will come for the last generation to be it may be us of our children or our children or our grandchildren. Verán entonces en el futuro que era posible el juego de las burbujas cristalinas, el rolcamiento de pies y manos en las olas pequeñas desatándose al borde como el último golpe de un ala antes de fallecer. In the future they will see looking at us that it was possible to play among the waves the crystalline bubbles where your feet and your hands are and I don't know how to translate this word hit by the waves so we're rolling down it's in the sand at the bottom of the waves in las olas pequeñas and time themselves at the edge as the last bit of a wing that is falling. So after this I think we may pass the Kamosyama the power point and I pick up my lecture after that but I will let you see them without speaking. Sorry let me just I realized the sound issue I think it's so important I'm sorry to pause this and but let me try this again. Cecilia should we start from the beginning for the sound? Oh no no I think we didn't get the sound. No we didn't get the sound for a while but I want to I think it's important to share so how would you like me to share it? Perhaps when you do the YouTube version of this talk you can play the proper how you call it the link so to happen but now I think we can proceed we got to a point where maybe I can just say that in the last portion of this film the kippu that had begun in the scene this place this is Kon Kon the place of birth of my art the peccario and so I go back to this place as often as I can and that this film was shot in 2010 and at the time all the dunes that are really you know a unique habitat in the world with lots of endemic animals, insects, plants was all being turned down for what in Chile is called development so the last scene you see is what I call a track kippu where I came to the construction site of the destruction of the beauty of Kon Kon and I spoke to the workers there and I told them what I was doing and they immediately offered to have to participate because they were people who were born and live in Kon Kon and yet they were forced to work for the companies destroying Kon Kon so it was a really beautiful moment when the kippu gave the workers of the the destruction of Kon Kon the chance to participate in the prayer for what they're losing the dunes in which they had played all their life knowing that their children will never play in those dunes destroyed by all these monstrous buildings so I wanted for us to share in that transformation that moment of transition where the workers helped and when I arrived with my huge balls of they had the discussion among themselves as if they should allow me in the construction site or not and they not only allowed me but stopped the track so I could get my wool under the track and we had and you will have to see in a different time the image of the track is slowly becoming like the knot covering the redness of the kippu which for me was like a moment a kippu moment where the kippu transforms itself into what it wants to be through us in us and with us so you can show the missing images yeah I can share the the last bit of the video to my deposit for a second so shall I speak now okay so I don't know it seems that the the presentation was a little long I am I need for you to keep me on track with the time because I am very bad at keeping time and I want to know how much time I have because I have lots of pages and I don't want to take longer than I'm supposed to perfect I mean as you as you as you would like I think you could go on to the your next pages as you as you need okay very well so these notes I have here I was thinking of how different it would be for you the students to enter architecture school now in the 20s 2021 2020 as it was for me in 1966 so I wanted to get myself in the mind of that girl that I was when I was 17 years old so happy to have been admitted to the architecture school because the two hardest schools to get in after you finish high school were medicine which of course was the top for everyone second was architecture and that very fact I don't know if this is still true in the world but the fact that architecture had that space that place in society so when I was imagining this in the beach of concon I began by doing these precarios a little sort of impossible towns for the high tide to erase and this I conceived either as the future architecture or as a remnants of an ancient culture and at the moment the time of this girl I was imagining architecture as the supreme embodiment of poetry capable of transforming whole societies just by seeing itself as the architecture of daily life as if the construction of all spaces from the social to the private conceived as art could turn life itself into art I entered as architecture school imagining that whole neighborhoods could become an artwork created by the people for the people in an explosion of collective creativity constructed in such a manner that it could be reabsorbed into the land without hurting it in other words it could be loved by the earth and the sea as you see it was already the image of the solution as creation driving me and after many many decades a young art historian comes visit visiting me in New York and he says Cecilia knowing that your art began in concon I want to invite you to come to concon again so that we can discuss his name is Jose the northern fleet and he is an art historian and professor in Chile even now so he was the reason why I made the film concon and the film that you just saw concon be it was invited in other words the creators that mama for the exhibition on drawing call online that was opening I believe in the year 2010 or 2011 perhaps they said we cannot show concon because it's too long long so can you do a little concon so that was concon be so it's like a condensed version of concon and so while I was in the process of creating this film called concon in conversation with Jose and with other local artists in concon I became aware that there was a notion of archaeological research conducted in concon I learned of the ancient nomadic architects of and their cultural historical choice to construct impermanent precarious constructions so I have begun my art of precarious in concon without knowing that the ancient precolumbian architects of the area had already been doing what I was doing so doing the performance the visual performance of concon this knowledge came to me the knowledge of course was already there but a person such as me is not necessarily aware of the archaeological research and I discovered when I showed concon to the people of concon that this hidden knowledge was also hidden from them since when I showed the film in concon people asked me where is this concon that you see even though they have been born and lived in concon in other words it was a history hidden by european colonization kept from us so completely that nobody in concon could have heard it I showed it to the fishermen and the fishermen said where is this concon where is this ocean that they were fishing on every single so what is this is the architecture of oblivion the architecture of erasure the architecture of lies all of it converted into dispossession in perverishment of the people and destruction of place all for the sake of profit for what in Chile they call development the endemic beauty the endemic springs the rivers the dunes the forest the lagoons the wetlands all destroyed along with the memory of place incidentally in the same site but on the other side of the river the river Ciudad Avietta the open city had been built and is still there because they had the insight of buying the land and converted into a corporation so you can still visit a precarious city on the other side of my precarious sculpture that disappeared because of the northern fleet in his research says that my precarious construction began before Ciudad Avietta I suppose so but we will have to read him to know that that is the case I will skip a few things because I have the feeling that it's time for us to begin our conversation I just will add a few more notes here it says el hacer es la plegaria dunes is the prayer I fly myself I bend myself I become pliable but enter entering that edge that basurita that little debris wishes transformation itself the precarious is the instant of the solution the instant of transformation I walk on that edge I become that edge it is the edge of the birth of my feeling of my thought I am the edge this is the precarious is the dissolution this dissaparition how you pronounce this apparition this appearance this appearance this appearance the extinction of the gestures the extinction of the sounds the extinction of the thoughts the extinctions of ways of being of dreams extinction of the moderation it says the moderation in Spanish the moderación la moderación is the tempering the tempering of the tongue of the language that speaks in speech the beginning of amanecer de la duna de la lluvia fina el horizonte y el mediodía I wanted to say that all this work has never been predicted on mastery on the contrary the whole poetics of my life's work come from this precario from this diario estúpido from these bad paintings from the no from the no the broken song the canto quebrado the broken song the book of errors as if as if all of it could become that doesn't fit that doesn't hit the nail in the head the infinite liberating intelligence of the gesture of breaking with that that sets us up from each other if the starting point if dissolution if we acknowledge that everything disappears then by logic you know that you I are nothing and you I are all at once the infinitesimal part of it all you know the solution is the only possible idea what makes us identical to each other think of the paradox of that uniquely identical the paradox in the world itself the fluidity that applies to art and the extension of our own being in other words the order between categories is fuzzy nonexistent or reading or ready equally fluid you can work in all media because all the equals all the equals are equally empty and willing to be transformed and play along your exchange is the end of what I wanted to say to you thank you so much for that presentation Cecilia and spending this time with us today and enacting translation in real time it was wonderful to experience out and sit with that with you there's an immutability and yet an ambiguity in your performances where language is both preserved and destroyed when you speak about ketchup for example you've mentioned that certain words cannot be translated as they represent the unique philosophies of a people so that words are not words only in your poems are also songs and also experiences beyond the spectacle the words infuse into the subconscious alongside the conscious mind the work is very inviting and even joyful in the midst of the pain that you referenced before and there's a suggestion in your installations and performances that the door is open to everyone to experience the language and the knowledge and the metaphysics of ancient cultures but my question is do you think that your work can act as a window into a type of indigenous universalism one that many different peoples can experience and the example of the construction on the dunes of Hong Kong seems to exist in that space well I would say that you see let's say construction workers in Chile are probably a lot like construction workers here the epitome of machismo the epitome of a paternalistic attitude towards a woman a little dark woman you know and this little old woman shows up with this ball of wool so my crew my camera people said don't go there because it's a dangerous thing to do you mean you may be attacked you may be insulted you are interrupting there is a kapataz a chief that would you know prevent the workers from being distracted by this action and yet the arrival of the wall and this disheveled old woman creates something for them so I would say the answer is the what is the proof is in the pudding something like that you have an expression that is a funny thing because it requires knowing how to make a pudding you know but you see I experience in my life not only this which was a beautiful participation and collaboration I sometimes experienced the absolute opposite for example for many years for many decades my art was ridiculed in Chile in Latin America in north in the US not ridiculed but ignored which is just as bad so I have experienced both sides I could answer in a in a contradictory way say yes and no it can be but it's not necessarily so because the invitation to participate is a risky one and I would say that is the constant to place yourself in that risk where I don't know what's going to happen therefore who's going to know you know I don't direct my my actions for example I came up with this notion the minute I saw the tracks I do plan it I don't think of it that way I allow myself to be the opening so if we allow ourselves to be in that space of of not knowing not determining as Oscar was saying then chances are that the things that are unexpected within quantum physics is called emergence may occur you know and I think we as human beings believe for that impossible encounter for that possibility that probability that something that we don't know of will happen therefore opening also us up it's not like we are the opener no it is the exchange the act that we engage with the earth or with others and that can become the opening if we let that's thank you very much for that I want to give Oscar an opportunity also to ask a question before we open it up to the students in general yes thank you Dario thank you for this amazing presentation Cecilia the work is is incredible and I think that the kind of the persistence you know it's the precariousness of the precario that gives it its power you know the fact that it never gets blotted out it's always this work of the of the 16 year old girl that gets kind of marshaled to the beach again and again that kind of provides it with its power and so I appreciate it very much I wanted to so I wanted to ask you about this idea of kind of native knowledge or or indigenous knowledge and so last week we had a guest here who gave a very thought-provoking lecture about the consequences of the legacies of colonialism for space exploration and during one of the discussions in class in the class that I participated in I was kind of trying to dematuralize and even problematize the conception of the indigenous and one of one of the students in my section his name is Fahad he's here he pushed back and he gave a kind of a helpful definition of the indigenous that I don't think you know that has even something to do with the precario you know which he defined and I hope I'm not misconstruing as those silenced by colonialism so that everything that does not make it into the dominant language of colonialism is the indigenous so while at first glance this might seem to kind of one all indigenous people into a homogenous category it also acknowledges that every you know even the concept of indigeneity is meaningless without colonialism a struggle for land is meaningless without someone trying to take it from someone else so indigenous people instead of being you know of a nation or of a land they become so almost despite themselves you know by resisting this imposition of knowledge from the outside and above so as a particular people or as a particular place or in a particular place so while this is a kind of a negative definition it also seems quite powerful and even acceptable so I kind of went with it so so that was a very kind of long preamble so but my question is actually very short it was more just kind of to ask you to think through this kind of category of the indigenous with us you know for example and and maybe even through the kipu you know how does the kipu fit in this discussion is the kipu a tool of indigenous knowledge in its specificity to a place and a people or is it a tool of colonialism through you know its purposes for record keeping for a powerful empire the the Inca empire and should we therefore you know see or should we see your kipu perhaps you know precisely as a kind of a middle ground that acknowledges both or is kind of embedded within the the kind of the middle ground between the two well that was a really fantastic way of putting a really traveled zone and I think with the word indigenous as with with every word perhaps I'm now going to go out on a limb is that how you say by adding the possibility that what we're going to say about indigenous may apply to many words that are created as insults you know that are created from the start as a diminishing as a reductionist view of what the other is or can be you know so let's say from the beginning let's imagine that the the use of this word becomes important we can imagine a date like 500 years ago with colonization with the arrival of columbus here it's probably not so we're not i'm not making a history of the etymology of this word but if the original intent of this word was to demean the other person as it appears to have been the case even though this may not be the case we imagine that this was the case charges the word and so in the process of 500 years people have fought one way or the other to disarm this word and convert this word in all the possibilities that you said you know as a weapon of liberation as a banner for identity as you know an insult and so all these realities are at play now so my response to this my visceral response as a girl was to identify with the despised identify with the unloved the unwanted why did that little girl there are pictures of cecilia at nine years old with feathers like i was a city girl you know i grew up in the countryside but at nine i was already had been moved to the city so my rebellion about having been moved from the country the wilderness into the city was to wear feathers so this rebellion against being labeled this rebellion against being named in one way or the other but because of course my family moved to to a region of santiago where the case could be quieter blonder taller than me so i was immediately seen as the dark one arriving and so my response was okay i am the dark one with pride you know so in other words i was enacting as a little girl the same position that you are describing of of indigenous people everywhere you know but that's only a part of it the other part for example in my experience was that i didn't know i had no reason to know or to understand that i really belonged as as an indigenous so i i decided that i invented my indigeneity and i lived and created all my work i created the kipu not not as a mimetic interpretation of what the kipu had been but as the opposite of it so none of my kipus recreates authorize or so i thought and later in life i have encountered the testimony from colonial books that i have become aware now as an older woman that some of the rights and shapes and funds that i have been imagining imagining i was creating did exist we don't have a clear picture of how they may have been but from the description we may infer that something similar to what i have been doing already existed so you see what are we inventing or what are we reinventing is a great song what is it that an insult that becomes a liberating force you see the only constant in all these things is that all those definitions and possibilities exist in superposition yes no perhaps all of the above and none of the above as superposition is described in quantum and so what can we say that would be relevant other than what you just said yourself do not travel that definition and if we try to go in one direction or in one other direction it will always encounter this danger of becoming a form of determinism a form of determinacy so i believe that we are in a moment of our species where if determinism was dangerous before and has cost us to live in this world of reductivism attractivism and everything that allows us to hurt and destroy others and earth that is the one thing that we wish and need to avoid if we want to make it as a species it's as plain as that so this is not anymore an ideological or intellectual or philosophical or linguistic question at all it is now a question of really sensing what is in a name and the beauty of the name is that the name just like the precarious is nothing and it's everything at the same time so how can we learn to live in that space of probability where we are observing ourselves for example my understanding of indigenous wisdom is the ability to be aware of your awareness and that is a definition of forms of buddhism as much as of South African ancient thinking in let's say among the sun as it is in the Andes I have heard expressions to account for that from every corner of the world I have also encountered them in western metaphysics so there's something that is I know that in western thought essentialism or this essentialist is like the total no no but it's the total no no for what purpose you know because there is truly a quest in us to liberate ourselves from determinism and you can see that in babies you know call a baby something and see the result you get thank you for that wonderful response very compelling I have many more questions I could ask but I'd like to give the students an opportunity to ask their questions so let's start with Michelle thank you Darryl hi Cecilia thank you so much for your very hard-working presentation I really admire your works and like from the readings that it's shared from the email I try to sort of like dig deeper into your works and then how you try to leave sort of like your thoughts your voice like draw your teenage years throughout to keep it self and I was fascinated when I come up into like this script of your conversation with Eliana Khan in which you define language in terms of its changeability when we relate to it with an awareness of what we are seeing or engaging in as if language were an alternate reality and then as architects we also develop our language through time and try to weave this alternate reality as well into our work in which in the process of creation itself might be rendered the entangled reality and we come up with this sort of like question of representation and so on and I am curious as to what is your process and immersing yourself into a context and then come up with a vibrant language to speak out your voice through your works which seemingly captures what cannot be saved and how does your language evolve or perhaps change through time in the journey of your career thank you thank you Michelle well the process is very resistant to contemplation do you know this famous story of the centipede that the centipede can move the 100 little legs but the minute the centipede is how am I going to move boom you know it freezes you're so when you contemplate your own process you have to be very delicate in doing that because you don't want to become sort of what's an American expression to name this is something like self-conscious you don't want to be self-conscious you don't want to call on what in the west is called the super ego the controlling mind so how can you observe your own process with such delicacy as you for example let's say I remember when I first came to the US I observed that Americans I observed Americans more or less like an anthropologist I have to say because I was kind of such a weird culture and so you could see that they don't seem to be present and I will speak of Americans as they in this moment or them and but when they are in a shop and they are going to buy something they examine that with such intent you know like a deep concentration in that moment and I thought how peculiar that that quality of observation that quality of concentration could be reduced to the moment when you're going to spend your money in you know and so it's a very telling thing about the value of a society when do you become totally present for who you're doing and if you ask me of my process I would say that my observation of my process I found reflected when I investigated toward presence you know where it comes from it comes from the Latin presente which means pre is to be in front of and sent is being so to be in front of being so think of how delicate it is to master the art of being in front of yourself in other words to be the witness of what you're doing while you're doing it without interfering with it you see it's like meditation when you begin to learn to meditate they tell you you have to observe your breathing but when you try to observe the breathing you interfere with it that doesn't work you see so you have to be present for your process in such a manner that you are there while not you're not really there you're not in the controlling business but you are in the openness as if you were making love with what you're observing you know and but that's similar is probably not appropriate in a culture where people are not so open to even making love because people are afraid and so it really is to be fully and completely with the awareness of your process you have to learn to existing fear without fear paralyzing you and preventing you from seeing what you really need to see well Ahana the bear question yeah hi Cecilia thank you so much for your presentation I think it surfaced like an ocean of thoughts so I'll try to streamline them and keep it brief but forgive me if I go a little too far I have two observations they're kind of linked back to one another but the first one is this paradoxical side of architecture in general I feel like architecture is complicit and almost fundamental in advocating or catalyzing certain exploitations you know when you showed the video of the truck you know going over the threads it kind of feels like it's literally walking over what exists so in a way architecture is entirely you know not just not just a built but also the process of building is an invasive process and that's why I feel like as architects we often forget the multi-dimensionality of architecture I'll cut to the other observation and then I'll try to tie them together the other observation is that also in the video you see how the thread transforms into something more not just physically from the thread to kind of you know a blanket of cloth and a ritual in itself and I kind of tied back to the knot and the thread kind of transforming into something more in terms of its physicality and also in terms of the ritualistic behavior tying it back to a line and point in architecture which transforms to a space in the end and an entire experience so and that way I kind of I feel like they both kind of resonate the same kind of energy and the power that they have however my critique is that architecture is permanent and it is permanent so we can't really you know being being aware of your awareness is where I come in and you can't really say that you're not going to build of course you're going to build because not just human beings build all beings kind of have an idea of a habitat and architecture in itself so it's an inherent process so architecture is permanent but however the architect needs to be temporary so I feel like when you kind of say you know you're nothing in your everything at once I feel like as architect maybe it might be interesting to know that when we design you know we have an agency but it doesn't mean that that agency gets carried forward through time and that's where I feel like the idea of you're there but you're not there is very important because maybe when you initiate a building or when you initiate a design you have an agency of being the architect but probably over time these architects are the different beings and they don't necessarily have to be either you as the human or other humans or you know other species in general and that's that's where I feel like architecture could possibly be loving without hurting but I'm not sure I would love to hear your comments on this too. Yes I think your questioning is very important to to architecture itself because we I suppose you're very young but I have traveled around the world quite a bit and even if you haven't had the chance you have seen images and there are places where there are forms of other forms of architecture both ancient and current you know for example I remember being once in in a town called Oyantai Tambo this is in Peru in the Sacred Valley and I entered into the home of some friends and they inside the house there were huge rocks inside the rooms you know and the floor and the walls were done the Andean way where the floor was converted into sort of surface for a bed then it was converted into a wall then it could reach so it was a feeling of being in an architecture that was sort of a caress and a sort of in dialogue with the earth I know that in big cities of course where iron and glass dominate this may not be the case but we see in in world architecture right now a sort of move towards a more fluid openness that would allow to have a sort of combination of permanent and impermanent allowing for enough creativity and interaction for transformation and adaptation to cure and it seems to me that this would be like the logical consequence of our realization that architecture doesn't have to be necessarily on this on the side of invasion or in destructiveness or in supporting extractivism and so forth so it it just requires people such as yourselves to think through and then of course when you go out into the workforce and how do you maintain an ethical principle when you're going to be hired by you see it's a sort of a sort of web that self reproduces the abuse of the earth and so who knows if we're going to make it as a society in time before this catches up with us as it is catching up right now you know and so the fact that this question is alive in us is the beginning. Thank you so much. Good. Hello. Thank you so much for your talk. So I was very particularly touched about your presentation because I am also from Tile and I also did my architecture I know projects on the Mapuche Cosmovision and speciality so I relate very much to the feelings you described so regarding this I wanted to ask in considering the context of the current political shift in Chile regarding the prior constitution and everything that's happening now with the representation of indigenous peoples and rewriting of the constitution and the relationship that your pieces have in particular with the civilization of indigenous communities. How do you think how does the exchange between the context and performance and performative arts can provoke a social change and given that arts and politics are so interrelated and like knotted within each other and what is the weight that things that seem so light for example like the will you work with can have so much weight in society. Thank you, Magdalena. Yes, I think are you in New York? Yes, so you probably were watching on Sunday the moment when Elisa Longgon gave her speech. Yeah, so let's bring everybody into this moment. Chile has now crossed a portal. I know that you had the word portal from one of my texts as the portal as the entrance to this talk and when I saw that I was very moved by your choice of those words because of what has just happened on Sunday Chile entered into a new probability into a new reality and wishes this new reality that after the social uprising that began in 2019 the people of Chile got the right to vote for the creation of a new constitution by the people and for the people and on Sunday the people gathered that who had been selected as the constituents meaning the ones that will write the constitution from all over Chile they were gathered in one room they had to select a president of this group that will take a year and a half to write a new constitution and they chose the lady the Mapuche woman called Elisa Longgon and she improvised a speech of acceptance that was the most beautiful powerful all embracing all inclusive speech I have ever heard anyone say. I began crying in that moment and I bet at least half the population of Chile must have been crying as we were watching that because for example she changed the method and this is very important for architecture is very important for me method is everything the word method I have a poem about it is the medicine of what we're doing because the word medicine and the word method have the same root so again is the awareness of what we're doing so what was the method that she described she said now that I have been selected as the president I am not going to rule over all of you but I'm going to create a rotating system where we are going to have seven different groups representing all the collectivities all the communities representing here and each one of us is going to be the ruler for a period so that we get an evenness of hearing each other you hear that and my god even if the extreme right tries to undo that how can that be done the moment when everybody has the chance to be heard and speak that is the architecture that we need you see an architecture of perception an architecture of thought an architecture of a speech I still think that architecture is poetry itself because it's like it is sort of condensing a view of the world into an habitat what can be more powerful and more dangerous than that you know so really what happened in that moment was an embodiment of what you're asking madalena you know how did the performance of the mabuche woman cause the mabuche woman that has been despised raped ridiculed and put in prison attack I have seen for the last few years many videos shot where the police enters into mabuche territory and grabs the old women grandmothers you know beats them up and puts them in in the police wagon why because they are themselves that is the reason being themselves so how did this performance because the mabuche women perform themselves they perform their own being and they perform it in the context of their mabuche community the context of their families the context of how they see themselves and how the society sees them and you see what I'm doing for you is the relationship that you beautifully put between the context and the performance is something for us to discover something that we can only discover in performance many people said to me something that really touched my heart that here in elisa they would remember the principles of my heart that to me was a reading of the reading of the reading that can only be possible now after the chilean uprising of 2019 who wrote that uprising into its force it was the young girls so to pick up with what oscar was saying about the Lenape territory being the territory of women I think this for us all women and young women working together and with the males and the trans people and everybody who's willing to go along with this sort of feminine aspect of our own pliability our own willingness to be in the in the terminate zone of self-discovery that we have a chance and so thank you very much magdalena for your question and for bringing into presence I hope our friends who are listening in this event will have curiosity enough to go into the internet and find the speech of elisa long gone improvising and acceptance the speech of insinuity thank you magdalena for the question and alerting us with this event if someone has a link you can put it in the chat and share with everyone I want to move to you aning shan I have a question delia okay thank you so much for your amazing presentation and I found it very interesting and inspiring so here are my questions first jibu is introduced like as a foundation and the constitution to record a social self-knowledge which through reading space and everything between them we know that the ancients use notes to count number or date but the jibu you use as art is more like the prototype of the early words like creating a language what do you think of this way that initially people came up with using linear notes to carry out complex memories well I mean like simply using lines to express complicated three dimensions space or express emotions and based on this why you are choosing a chip like a media to create your works and also according to your art installation and the video it's really relates to the environment context and this cultural context material using and the symbolism meaning so can like can the development of this recording method the chip art be replicated in other cultures or will its person development have an impact on our future culture I'd like to know your comments on this thank you tricky question you named tricky tricky tricky and yeah difficult questions are a good thing and so the answer to why I chose the kibu it's not how I formulate it so I instead of answering I reverse it I believe that I encountered kibu when I was probably 14 15 years old and I must have encountered it in a book because kibus were not part of the culture where I live so I pictured the girl opening a book and encountering this weird construction of knots and being intrigued so did I decide to work with the kibu and with the kibu did I pick the kibu no something in me was intrigued attracted by the enigma of the absurdity the strangeness of this set of chords with knots I knew nothing about it and I wasn't inclined to go research it was not like now you go to the internet no no internet probably new book in my house had anything to do so it was what happened to the girl with the kibu is something that I cannot answer but all I know is that all of a sudden I had this image which I put in the presentation called the kibu that remembers nothing so my relation to the kibu was the fact that I had been stolen that knowledge so look at the process first I was intrigued attracted to something incomprehensible then I realized whatever this was I don't know what it is and why don't I know you see why don't I know so that I think it's a very girly thing to do why am I being prevented from knowing this you see so is this sense of rebellion of the animal girl and from that rebellion came this incredible image of the kibu that remembers nothing which is the basis of everything that I do it also tells you that the kibu that I began doing was not a copy of whatever it had been and it has taken me a lifetime to learn what kibu may have been in the past because it's an ongoing research we know so little because colonialism or the colony destroyed the knowledge so the fact that I am working with the destroyed knowledge is very important to me because it gives you the chance of being very creative because it that's if you look at my story with the kibus I have been doing kibus for like 50 years now and you will see an immense variety of wild treasures that are kibus are they really kibus or are they not perhaps in the future somebody can decide or perhaps never will this be able to be adapted to other cultures probably not but the process by which the girl was intrigued by a knowledge stolen from her I can certainly see that happening everywhere you know because who wants to be stolen from knowledge you know nobody and so it is what has our culture the western kind of education and it tries to sort of impede this desire to know by imposing certain knowledge and pretending that knowledge is something that you can acquire but just as I have created a method of working with the kibus and the precarious I have also created a non-method of non-teaching because I believe that we have to go through a process of liberating education just as we have to liberate our awareness you know and I would leave it there with the fact that you know if you are taking something no I said wrong if something is taken from you you don't like it thank you and that we have very Christine hi thank you for your presentation I thought it was quite unique and interesting um some of the art you produced is ephemeral and nonetheless it still raises awareness in specific culture people in language and looking this to architecture imagining historical buildings such as concentration camps that have been preserved and continuously raise awareness and reminds us of past torments of specific populations um if these buildings were ephemeral and they had been destroyed then the level of awareness that they still raised would not have been the same so this is not just limited to architectural buildings but monuments statues and you know other more permanent structures so my question is the following um is the awareness produced by this type of ephemeral art not limited to a specific time that's my question repeat the question because there was a sound interference yeah no problem I was saying if is the awareness produced by ephemeral art not limited to that specific time I see I hope so I hope it's not limited to that specific time because the let's say for example if if you ask me about the origin um remember I was speaking about me picking up the first little stick because it was a stick the first thing I I selected in Spanish I say un palito you know just for example right here I have this kind of palitos always near me and so what do I see in this palito what do I feel in this palito I feel the life of the plant the life that was you know the life that is gone so the awareness of ephemerality that you can get from something that has been destroyed or it's going it's dissolving is in the process of disappearing for me it gives you an awareness of your own dissolution of your own death and I remember as a young girl when I understood that I would die what that did to me you know that my parents would die that everybody that I loved would die you know and so I find that the awareness of death the awareness of an end is a most liberating force because it puts you squarely in the truth you know the only truth that matters that you are here for a very short time and so actually I wrote a whole text about that being the source of my sculpture and the sculpture was what was the act of inviting the gardeners of the big parks of Santiago to gather the leaves because the leaves the autumn leaves Santiago is a rare city that has four seasons in Latin America we don't have very many cities that have four seasons because of the geography being so changing you know very high mountains wild forests and things like that but if you have four seasons the your body it has incorporated the knowledge of death the death and regeneration of life you know so does awareness have that ability yes I was going to jump in with another question so I will make it quick because we have a few more here and they're all so fascinating I was curious to hear your take on the relationship of monumentality and mediation the direct experience of your work at installations like the Shanghai Biennial which some of the students have have visited there is an immersive quality simply in the scale of the quipu that is presented there and during this past year we all have been stuck behind our laptops you know sort of cut off from a direct direct experience and I'm curious how you see your work translated or transposed through the medium of the small screen and I know you are a filmmaker as well as a poet and a painter and a sculptor so I'm curious how you see your work shifting to accommodate the small screen or does the experience of your work through the small screen in some way change the work itself it's a very good question and since we're in the middle of it I don't really have an answer but hearing you I immediately my body responded immediately by saying suffering you know I think what we are going through by being reduced to the screen all of us in whatever process something happened are you still hearing me yes okay yeah okay now I got you that real back okay it's suffering you know because however way we put it if we are removed from the ability of seeing touching each other being just freely moving about in the street or in the school and all that we have all been hit as if it were by a violent wave of separation you know and how is that going to change the way we interact with each other we are in the process of learning because we have come up so far with this zoom where we can be together and take this too hard but can we really take it too hard when it has been transmitted only through the laptop as opposed to me dashing you like for example I keep here by my computer these threads you know and I sometimes do this for people who are sensing it to imagine what it could be to be in a capable performance where you are suddenly like inside a sort of the huge cloud of this unspun wool and people who have experienced these performances say that even though you may have a beautiful film and my god I do have a few beautiful films the film is like a child of a big fat mother who has you know these tiny little children like you know kangaroos I don't know if you've seen kangaroos so big mama and the babies are so it is like the the quality of experience has been robbed from us and what can we do but understand that this you know violence is exerted by a wrong orientation in science by a wrong orientation towards the use of the land by a wrong way of dealing with the animal world with even the way we eat the meat or or the wild animals I mean all these questions that are popping up are our only way is built with the question and not let go of the question is what I can say is my response. Thank you very much for that. We're running out of time so what I'd like to do is group the last three questions together I hope that's okay Andres so Andres, Iris and and Pablo will ask their question one after the other and then hopefully you can respond to whatever parts of them this year. Yes thank you very much Darryl and amazing I don't know how to call it moment time, not in time, Petilia thank you so much really really incredible and also because I think that this is probably not a lecture it's kind of a collective experience of resensing the way our bodies connect to others and become ecologies and territories and I like to ask you about this because when you talk about let's say feminism or ecology they're brought together in a notion of bodies as something that becomes collective and there's a joy on that there's a joy on the way menstruation circulate and connects bodies with the land with others and that I'd like to ask you about because this cosmology this way of understanding the kind of material solidarity among all forms of being it's a very different way of understanding ecology or even feminism that the ones that for instance are reenacted through let's say new versions of modern architecture that is becoming sustainable or is you know and I think it's crucial to pay attention to what you're saying because it's a total different way of sensing rather than understanding of kind of calculating and I this is this is basically my question. Oh wow thank you Andres I mean yes it's sensing you know and this is very beautiful because in this moment for example we are discovering I mean it's a moment it is such a beautiful moment at the same time that is such a horrible moment you know for all the pain that that we are causing to so many species that are going extinct so many cultures languages people that are being massacred but at the same time for example if we focus on the word senses it's like we have to rediscover our own human senses and we have now for example the understanding that plants have more than 20 senses you know for example you know we are discovering that roots for example I have a text about you know that Darwin who has been sort of assigned the role of being Darwin he wasn't Darwin at all at the end of his life he was fascinated by the way roots the roots all the roots of a tree have a sort of middle brain at the top can you imagine I remember when I read that that my mother would say to me mijita usted parece que tiene ojos en los dedos like she believed that I as if I had little brains in the tip of my hands because I needed to sense to touch things in order to get a was I trying to get knowledge understand or a deeper sense the wider sense a richer sense I think if if we use that kind of of questioning or wondering rather than questioning wondering what kind of sense says we have in us that we haven't yet fully explored so that we can really be fully and completely alive in the time allotted to us let's have Iris and then Pablo ask your questions back to back if you don't mind thank you so much for the touching inspiration presentation Cecilia I have a question that I leveled with two other classmates during the workshop today they are Francesca and Xanhao and we have a question regarding the podcast you did for by Neil and Shanghai the question is you mentioned that menstruation is the portal and threshold connecting the cosmic rhythm to the body we acknowledge that menstruation is a natural process happening in women's body and its importance but some women suffer unpleasant physical pain and when some women reach a certain age they stop going through that process when a woman choose not to go through menstruation or stops going through due to aging does that mean she lost a connection with the cosmos and how can she keep the connection with the cosmic rhythm after that good question and rare question for a young girl if you were older that could be like more expected I have to tell you from experience that of course I lost my menstruation long ago I lost my menstruation in several different ways and through trauma you can also lose menstruation for example many girls who are like in concentration camps as refugees they also lose their menstruation I lost it because of the military coup because of being forced to become an exile you know and so losing it having it is painful or can be painful losing it is also painful so painful on both counts but about the question of keeping your cosmic connection is not something that you can lose you see because the cosmic connection exists in every aspect of your being we are literally made from the dust of the stars you know so every iron that makes our blood possible is a cosmic element you know everything in your breath in your skin possible every cell of your body every atom of your body is a cosmic being so you don't lose the connection if you are aware that that connection exists in all your senses you know you go out in the dark night and you sense it you know you touch running water and you sense it you eat the fruit and you sense it so this cosmic nature of our being is always available not just for women but what happens the difference between menstruating and not menstruating and here I am venturing because in this life I have not been a man yet but I can imagine that why is it that women are more prone to exchanging with each other to speaking and communicating and more open to their own senses and their own sort of inner creative universe it seems that it's harder for men it may be because we carry something that is like a symbol it is a symbol of that connection for what reason did the cosmos decide that there should be something called a male and a female we shall never know but there must be a function to having that blood coming from us which is actually not blood it's a different kind of substance so that substance that acts like blood but is not blood is a speaker from my perspective it's a symbol maker obla we're going to end with your question okay thank you so much Celia for your presentation I was really touched and I really appreciate everything that you share with us I'm also from Chile and I was I was I wanted to ask you about your changing of scale in your working like changing your precarious like found objects and and now changing scale to like your red thread that is really present and powerful and I was digging a lot in your work and and I think it's it's really amazing the word that like you connect for example in people menstrual like you did three iterations of the same of the same meaning and I was wondering why why you change like or you're focusing on these red threads in your last work as a way of entangling everything or why you like not working too much with found objects but rather to with the with these red threads that is kind of engloving all your or your vision yeah not the truth of the matter is that I discovered when when I was in Athens to create the night for documenta because we went to documenta two times first all artists were invited the year ahead of time to go see the buildings to go see the architecture of Athens so that our work could be really site-specific which was a huge gift for us you know so visiting Athens and being there and I had many experiences we don't have time for me to tell you but it was when I knew when I had the image of what I wanted to do I became intrigued by my own image and I decided to research what you just said when did the red thread appear in my work and what did I discover I discovered that in back in 1964 1965 when I was like 15 years old I was already painting it and the first image of which I have a good picture of is from 1969 so suddenly I became aware of the role of the red thread in my life as an old woman you see but the red thread had been there all along invisibly because we women have been trained to become it to to become invisible to ourselves you see and so it is this process where you see who you really are that is mind-blowing you know and that's all I can say I actually wrote the book that is called read how is it called read thread where I read I began reading the thread that I even though I have been working with the thread for 50 years it occurred to me that I was reading my thread you know and so it's called the story of the red thread and after I published that book which was in 2017 I have continued to discover more dimensions of how the red thread was moving me not the other way around you know so this question of a scale what is a scale is also something that we exist as human beings in the impossibly small subatomic particle level but we also exist in the infinite imagination where we can imagine the origin of the cosmos you see so are we in our bodies yes but are we really in our you see it's it's this wireness of possibilities that is embodied in us that is the mystery and the beauty right on time thanks to sowsies incredible timekeeping prowess I wanted to thank Cecilia for her incredible generosity her powerful presence that reaches far outside of the screen embracing us in strands of red fleece as we sit here in front of our computers and which will hopefully follow us into our days as we log off to the architects let's find different ways to build the developments on the beaches of con con let's build precarios and we've kipus Cecilia thank you goodbye thank you bye bye thank you so much thank you so much thank you so so much goodbye everyone yeah ciao ciao