 So so committee you do have a copy of the annual report inside your Report is actually only 20 some odd pages, but the attachments Me and some very smart staff and including Ashwin We It's a modeling of various Why you've only got to sell four of us now Okay, so I think that would be helpful if you had the end report starting up age 16 We've got a little bit of an overview of Bonding and in the state's bond rating and some of the highlights We do have a path which I did not bring but Bonding 101 and We can send that over Wasn't sure But in general the state has a Committee called the capital debt affordability advisory committee otherwise known as CDAC I am the chair of the committee the bond bank has representation on it the president of the bond bank as well as the executive director and And then the government's appointees and I have one appointee to see that and Our charge is to is to look at the amount of debt Bonding the state condition when any given year or in our case of biennium And we look at basically three metrics as we do we look at the economy too We employ Jack Carr do some of the work on me on the revenue that's going forward So he takes the consensus revenue and he pushes it out a little further looking at some of the data Obviously the further you go out the more Volatility you have with those numbers But we take a look at that. We take a look at the overall economy and then we look at three debt metrics That that are very important to the process One is debt per capita, so to take the amount of debt we have outstanding and you divide that by the population to get a number for debt per capita that number is helpful moodies There's a mood of median moodies medium, which looks at the three characteristics including that per capita annual base and That per capita is described on page 18 of the annual report we In 2019 our debt per capita was $1,140 it's an increase over the previous year which is 987 We went 25th out of 50 states you want to rank 50 Okay, so it's reverse order and some years way back. We were ranked around 10 This is when we over over did our bonding and got ourselves in some trouble Back in the 70s and 80s and in 1990. I believe or 89 or 90 We created CDAC to start to work down our our bonding We have a long-term member of that committee that I want to recognize as David Colts And he's done a great job with us over the years and in working with that committee and has a great historical knowledge of it How can we Have a good bond rating when I was at a meeting of the day and they asked the question If you roll three billion dollars on pension, that's three billion Isn't my my correct three billion two point two in pensions and about About the same in health care and we're not going to pay until 2038 38 How can we continue it with a good bond rating if we go that kind of money? Well, I would point out that that's not unusual. We're in kind of the median With with states in terms of looking at some of the metrics moody's pointed out that Well, it's a substantial amount that are as a percentage of our own source income it it was right in in the numbers and Um, I think that that's important where we had a trouble with the bond rating was not so much the pensions were an issue But the bigger issue was with an older declining population The ability to take on all of those liabilities and pay them in the future So I think that the governor is absolutely right about demographics getting back to pensions That is like taking your mortgage and saying that you have a 300 million, uh, excuse me, 300,000 If you get 300 million out of mortgage, I want I want I want a couple of rooms and you know, you know in in in the place but It's like taking your mortgage and putting it in on your balance sheet and the fact of the matter is you're gonna be paying an amount every year Which we call the the actuarial Determined employer contribution that used to be called art actuarially required contribution So I used to say pay the art pay the art the reason that we got in trouble were a couple of things one We didn't pay the arc as is recommended by the actuary. So when an actuary says you need to put in 25 million and you put in 15 million You can't expect a good result and you do that year and year out at home When you're um, when you're trying to pay for the your child's college education Or post-secondary education, whatever it might be if you start putting the money in as a sophomore year of high school You're probably not going to meet your finance goals if you start in grade school But then you say i'm going to skip it through junior high because we've got some expenses To pay, you know, you want to do the roof and all these other things You're probably still not going to meet your goal because you're not getting the value of compound interest We did that consistently from the early nineties. I read a report from the joint fiscal office Dated in 1989 and talking about why we shouldn't put all the money into the 1990 pensions We did it all the way up to 2007 so it's back in a different result the great recession also had an impact But it had an impact across the country And so that's been an issue for us And uh, we're going to correct that so how we're going to go on forever and not change The pension or something because 2038. I mean that's what 18 years from now Let's walk with one third of the way through the mortgage So it's like a 30-year mortgage. We'll one third of the way through because we started this in 2008 And we are on target. We've done what's called a a risk assessment that includes a stress test I want to make that clear when folks say that we haven't done a stress test We did a very vigorous stress test and what we found was that And the difference also between the risk assessment and when a natural report takes a point of time June 30th And it says this is what your liability is what we said in the in these risk assessment and stress test Assume we're filling those positions and creating new people into the pension system and we'll get it and what they said is That we're on target And we can do it, but it also said there's considerable volatility So you know and we want to deal with that volatility. So we have a working group made up of the administration retirement boards The unions because you need to have employee groups involved And the legislature we've been meeting and we've said everything is on the table And we're taking a look at what we can do To to lower that volatility going forward because our rules that you can't continue on this I heard them the other night you can't continue on this on this track Because you better change the future And we were obligated to pay the pass, but are we changing the future? And I don't know enough I would argue that the future The struggles with the defined benefit plan is the most cost-effective way to pay Repentions and states that have changed to other systems. For instance, west virginia, michigan, alaska Um, they've actually west virginia was a db plan defined benefit switched to dc plan And then switched back because they said it was costing them more money and they were losing recruitment I've done the numbers on defined contribution plans. I did not bring them with me senator But I'd be happy to bring them to a subsequent meeting and a defined benefit plan would cost you more money Clearly in the short term and my friends Including david have acknowledged it in the short term The argument is that in the long term it would be a benefit have done the analysis of other states that have done that And found that it actually cost them more the unfunded liability continued to rise For different reasons and again, I'd be happy to come back and do a full presentation on this I have to play a bit of literature and analysis on this But our estimate is more that it would cost in the short term About 20 some odd million dollars more for the state system Because right now the normal cost the amount of money that you not for the unfunded liability For the state system is roughly three percent of payroll and for the teachers one percent of payroll So you'd be replacing a dc plan with that Stop it for a minute There's good news and there's bad news The good news is by 2038 you and I will be six feet under But The guy that was supposed to go along around our great site. He won't be able to get paid I just I just can't believe we're three billion dollars when I heard that it's not a million billion And how they have when we're talking about I can't believe we got any credit rating in this state Well, what's more disturbing is that it works as you said Somewhere in the middle. So think about it spread across the country. Yeah Yeah, and the states that are in the biggest trouble are the ones that didn't pay their dollars Or did benefit increases enhancements? Despite that and we have not We're working with the unions. We're working with the administration to look at ways to to lower this liability Again, I would argue that a dc plan will cost you more money Again, that normal cost is three percent of payroll and one percent of payroll You or the treasurer and Like I don't want people to agree on something We're going down the hole here. We're not coming out. Well, I would point out that that's why we have a Working group that incorporates the administration the general assembly the employees The trustees of the retirement system the treasurer's office and the chair of the from our pension investment committee But we've also made a lot more progress recently than had been made Well, we're paying down the liability now when you look at a mortgage remember when you do a mortgage You're paying an interest first and in principle So we're just about at the point where we're starting to dig into the principle And if you look at the teacher system For the it's it's kind of health study not next year. We're probably going to lower their interest rate And so it's going to push up the liability of it, but remember that the teacher's plan Which is very poorly funded in addition to not funding in the 90s We took health care costs out of that without budgeting that up to 2014 we did that And they were they were in the 55 percent But if you look at their numbers and let me see if I can find the page on that The teacher's plan they have a good plan If you look at the numbers they were at 55.6 54.22 and 17 55.22 and 55.65 it's not a lot, but it's not going the wrong direction And they're starting to edge up the state system if you look at it 70.7 versus 70.67 That's a little bit of decimal dust. This is our page Eight, you know, we we're working on this. We've got a team together. We've done a risk assessment that includes a stress test I will point out that if you'd like me to come in and talk about this further I will do that and critique also what I found to be egregious errors in the evermont Roundtable sound presentation Total misunderstandings of Of how pensions work not david stuff. I will tell you that just um I have a lot of respect for david codes want a lot of difference glutes together and david's numbers are always rock solid We disagree on the solution But his numbers are rock solid and we talk about those numbers, but I've got a reason they have a solution because as I see it we're going down too fast Well, I would be happy to have a separate presentation on this if if the chair wants me to do that It sounds like I know what I'm doing. We ought to be talking about it at some point You have to do that my immediate concern is Everybody that's been coming in here to testify is Somebody that might be looking for money. Yes. I keep dropping the seed event that we are probably looking at less money available in the next couple of years cycle. Yes I guess I'd like to hear from What's going on with that? Sure so There are a lot of folks that look at bonding As a as a solution to a fine to getting somebody into the system and what I would argue is And if you look at page 16, I actually as a deputy treasurer wrote this piece in in the 2009 Transition infrastructure around a bond program and I said at the time We said bonding makes sense and I still believe this the cost say to accelerate construction It exceeds the interest paid on the funds. In other words, the inflation rate on a bond might be 3% but the cost of inflation Construction contracts for instance 8% or whatever so it makes sense to do it now Second is a quantifiable economic benefit that exceeds the cost of borrowing now I should have in this report Darkened bloated the word quantifiable made it 16-point font Put italics on it and underlined it Everybody tells me well, this is a great benefit that it has to be quantifiable You know, we have to work with data word data-driven department and in terms of our recommendation and second a future identifiable and We reliable revenue source exists to pay the bonds There is a fourth one that I didn't put in here called intergenerational equity And the thought process on that is if you build a school now future generations are going to use that school So they should pay some portion of it Now I get that principle. It's a philosophical difference sometimes between folks about how much When I look at a bond and I say The interest rate is 26 to 28 30 percent Of the The interest that's going to be paid on it versus the the principle I say is that intergenerational worth 14 million dollars of interest of 13 million dollars of interest So we have to have that conversation as well But those are the parameters that I as a treasurer recommend when you are looking at what are you putting in to the capital debt affordability process and what are you putting in the capital bill is metrics related to this we'd be happy to assist on that But to me that's that's a basic principle So when you hear folks that are saying that we should bond more I would be cautious Simply put we have a capital debt affordability committee We look at three items as I mentioned debt per capita is one debt as a percentage of of income is the Is the next one. I'm going to try to go to the pages here. So debt is a percentage of personal income on page 19 It's fully explained What we do there is that's a that's an issue to me of taxpayer affordability And we're bumping up and we're moving up. We moved um, uh, you know, uh, as a percentage states we dropped from, um, 28 to 26 and again remember it's a reverse you want to have you know, 50 is your is your is your perfect number there Um, and we're seeing that check up slightly When we put in a bond, um, it could be a housing bond. It could be an energy efficiency bond But we modeled one at around 50 million and we went around did one at 20 25 or 27 What we found was the interest rate Was high but it also pushed up this parameter as we were looking at it And that's in the appendices of the housing report. So it pushed this up to our Limits that we have set as a policy limit In in cdc. So what we're saying is it's starting to become an affordability issue for the taxpayer This is not about the bond ready. This is about affordability for the taxpayer So debt as a percentage of personal income The third one is debt as a percentage of revenue debt service actually as a percentage of revenue So how much is debt service how much of a percentage of the total revenue, you know, the general funder? We're receiving and is you know, does is there room for that and we've got a little room on that one But I get worried about debt as a percentage of personal income And we are going to be evaluating these criteria because these we've had these for quite some time We're going to evaluate the metrics in the fall when we do our next report And we may have some tweaking to those But when you look at our numbers We are now issuing We are now paying more debt service and we are Issuing where it's it's a and we need to be careful We've got Some strains on our capital budget affordability and over the last six years we've recommended approximately 23 reduction over those That's six years in the bienniums I can't tell you what the number will be till we do the metrics We do the look at the economy. We look at the metrics themselves now they're reasonable But I wouldn't I so I can't say it's 20 million or 30 million or 10 million But what I will say is that I think that any Fund that is going to jump up radically it may stay the same. Maybe it moves up a little bit But I don't see a an opportunity for for including a whole range of additional bond Initiatives you know in in this number this is see that that's going to eventually Flesh out that number. Yes. So we do that every fall And what we do is we do it for a biennium. So we did it two years ago For the 20 and 21 biennium. So you have a number the only difference that happens in that number Is our two things one this committee does a hard look This was a recommendation that treasures office made in 2011 At the projects in the utilization. So somebody and you came up with a solution that said If if they're not using their money in after two years We want them to come in and tell us why they should keep it and you we Take residual dollars out of capital projects that you've done or capital projects that aren't expending or not getting off the of the The paper and onto reality So that's a good thing the others you get bond premiums So when we sell bonds, particularly a low interest rate environment, we get some premium this year That's a fairly substantial amount about 11.2 million and that's built into the capital budget As interest rates rise that will go away And I would say budgeting with that is is a poor idea because You never know when you sell the bonds what that's going to look like it can be 2 million It can be 11 million it can be zero So I wouldn't bet the farm on that going forward I'm offered to the ratings agencies week To discuss the bonds and scouts They need annually to take a look and do a do a temperature check. We talk to them generally every six months By phone to give them an update So we will probably catch up with them Because we talked to them and all this has given me a little bit of a stretch But we're probably talking to them probably in may or someone after the session is done I hope you've done by me but Maybe we'll talk to them late may and we'll give them an update on what happened with the budget What's happened with our cash position? That's an important piece to them What's happened with pensions and the improvements that we're going to make? and We will have a conversation with them In midterm And then we have a conversation at the time we're issuing bonds typically we issue bonds in the fall CDAC or released annually? CDAC meets For depending on the year so the year that you're doing the initial biennium they'll probably have four Canadians to start in late summer and start to work through that Maybe five if you need them this year since we're going to look at the metrics We'll probably have another we also have a working group that's looking at how you can do more cash instead of bonding for capital projects It's a proposal that that that I made Based on an experience. I had in a previous municipality In creating a structure that creates cash as opposed to bonding And you can use that for short shorter term Capital projects have a shorter use for life for instance You know we talk about it and different things until they fit in there And then that's a conversation we can have we use that in a town that that I was previously employed at It became very very effective and then several other towns in Connecticut Right into the same type of model. So I'm going to be presenting that as an option working with a work group And there are other options that the administration is looking at as well So the secretary so we have a small work group that's going to be working on that And then we're going to be looking as a whole on the debt metric So we'll probably have more than the typical four meetings that we have The second year we probably have two or three meetings Because we're we're updating the numbers and it's where that we we actually have a set of circumstances When we said in the interim one that you need to change a number of life is going downhill it could But last year we just reaffirmed the the biennium recommendation So when CDAC meets and these working groups meet Any time that they come to conclusions about something is that information shared with the bonding agencies? Yes, they see our capital debt affordability advisory On report. We also have to report every year in june on Standardized reporting structure. It's called Emma the Don't ask me what Emma stands for but we have to report disclosure information each year And also our bonds are on there. So they do keep an eye. They read our newspapers. I mean they're asked questions about things that they see in Seven days or digger or Or up north, you know Yeah, you got it. They're they're looking at everything And they're If they see issues or ask us about And so what they typically do is give us some idea of what they want to talk about What are the things by the way that they're talking about in every state is climate change now and risk mitigation efforts So that was on our list and I talked a couple of other treasurers because it was the first time I saw it on our list And and they said, you know, we had it too So it's becoming I think a big issue with the rating agencies if that Really do a lot of What they did is they actually bought a Interest moodies in a company that does analysis of risk processes and mitigation And climate change. So that's becoming a big issue for them because they're looking at They have odd weather events like I read, you know what I mean What do you and that's the becoming more frequent and they're becoming more, you know, the dorm as opposed to the To the extreme And they're looking at one of the risk mitigation strategies. For instance, we took them to a tour back in 2014 or 15 my memory and the years kind of come, you know, all meshed together as you know And we took them on a tour of the water barrier site as it was being constructed So we had to all put on hard hats and And boots so we told them to take those with them when they, you know, put them in there Not the hard hats, but the hard boots when they they showed up here And we took them all all three rating agencies through there because we had This mitigation in terms of the terms of the flooding there. It also I don't remember was 30 or 40 but a substantial amount of operating cost reductions And in fact, we saw green bonds Based on the improvements to the to that building So that was a good moment to show a risk mitigation strategy That was for the purpose of climate change questions Well, that was for the purpose of just a general meeting, but they were interested in what our risk meant mitigation was Post Irene, so you're Usually we've done another road, but our mental health facilities as well as our prison system Are they looking absolutely they look at infrastructure So it's a tough balance because you don't want a lot of debt, but you also have needs And it's a tough balance. And that's where you know, when you go back to what is a The criteria you use to what's a good candidate for bonding And you know, we recommended four right now three and the important the fourth one for me Those are things that I think are extremely important. You have others that are important to you We have offered in the past and we will be happy to do it. Um, any, um, any looks at cost benefit of Anyone or internal rate of, um, return on the particular item that's in the in the, um, in the capital plan Again, it's about prudent use of debt This state has done a good job on that And I commend you for continuing to do that. I would also say it would be a mistake To to exceed the CDAC limit and say that we're going to ignore that that we get points for that Not just on the debt side, but you're not in the pieces where they look at our fiscal management And in our financial stability, we get bonus points. Um, at the end of the there's a Notch that they give a rating agency Calculations for that and we don't want to lose that I'm trying to plan that scene with everybody that comes in the door. I don't want that to happen on my watch Yes, yeah Yeah, but you know, this is um, uh, it was unfortunate that, um, um, that, uh, we we did go down A lot of it is aging population workforce and the ability to pay those liabilities vis-a-vis that Again, not the liability itself as much as the ability to pay for it with a declining population um, we, um Part of that, but I I'm just now beginning to realize Our infrastructure is also a part of what they are considered. Yes Infrastructure, our ability to risk mitigation around climate Again, they they they love the tour And and I think it was very instructive about how we responded. We didn't just rebuild on a site that You know that that had potential for flooding without doing mitigation strategies So I guess my question is, you know, how do you With the demographics being kind of a big girl in the room How Much is it countered by the risk mitigation? Are there things is there enough that we can do to to counteract That kind of Downside of of our situation. I think that there are different ways you can handle it I'm going to go to the transportation fund for a minute and You know, we've got a record amount in there. We've we've had Really significant number of dollars I'd say since 2010 and about Starting to see some significant improvements there. We also did a Bonding proposal called transportation infrastructure bonds and we have a small one there Senator remembers all this And what we said in that is we're collecting an assessment called the motor fuel transportation infrastructure assessment I'll leave it at that and That's going toward paying the tips But also when there's extra cash that can be used In other words, you collect it more than you need for the debt service reserves You can use that for other needs in the in the Transportation and they are they're using a lot of that for pago as opposed to new bonds And I commend them for that because you'll lose it You know, you're you're increasing The the value of those dollars because you're not putting future dollars into interest payments I would commend them on that. I think the secretary of administration Suzanne and I Are looking along with our staff and our staff at ways Making recommendations and do similar types of things in the general fund whether it's the capital We see an RE fund whether it's another model whether it's trust fund We are looking at ways to try to help with that The balance that we have is the decision making that you make And how much and what is the value of the things because we give you the amount We tell you how much you can put on the credit card And what you're saying is these are the things we think that belong there And I would recommend the criteria that I that I've stated to you You have other criteria. We're willing to help in that process But the decision making the balance about this infrastructure versus this is something that that lies with this committee And you don't want me telling you what the other things you should build But it's important to think about that and it's important to recognize that Some things have more value than others and it's also the long-term value of it, you know Fits in a bridge now versus waiting for it to get really bad It's going to cost you, um, you know, uh, you know pay me now or pay me a heck of a lot more down the road So I think you've answered most of what I was thinking about and asking but when you mentioned green bonds Can you first define green bonds at all? That's an interesting question because green bonds are badly defined But they're basically sustainability bonds that that that support capital projects that um working renewable energy energy efficiency and the like The advantage of green bonds is it expands the market because people that are interested in concerned about those issues Are now likely buyers of those bonds. So it The belief is that over time that will create more market and You know, when you have more markets, you can get better So that is why we get it. Um We were one of the first states to do a green bond. Um, there are certain criteria in that And uh, but the criteria Have been in the past not as one defined as starting to get a little more with it I remember when duke did their initial analysis of environmental bonds. I think it relates to that's why I was asking that relates to that then there's another You were talking about prioritizing And the job that we have in here and the job that you have out there But so much of what we're seeing now Is it could be construed as social infrastructure? I mean everything from mental health systems And uh, and then if you're talking about mitigation of climate change with planning to get people who like think about um The 911 folks who have the care program and identifying where people are that cost money to do that and then to Once you have that system in place Yeah, do do we ever I know I like the idea of environmental bonding because then you can target it I just said with the idea you knew you knew I But I also wonder What the social bond piece is not like a social impact. Yeah A social impact bond is a different um different Um Animals will to speak of course of a different color. Yeah, it is. Um, what they what it is is um is that um Some investors will put in money and they will base it on performance. So if you need a certain performance um metric You get they will they will get a lower rate of return essential and their dollars and so it's kind of a A way of incentivizing you need very clear Metrics with that and you need very you need a good pool of investors So it's upfront money to save save money down the road. Uh, yeah, that's the normal thing Sometimes people will call something a social um an impact bond That isn't I remember one in um in dc. For instance, it was called An impact on but when you read under the uh under the hood, it was really a general obligation bond with social needs Social needs associated. Yeah, so it's a little different. Um structure Than than we're used to in this state and You do need a good infusion of cash from uh for an investor that's willing to take on those uh those issues So for instance, the corrections they've used it there in other states So um, so theoretically you lower the recidivism rate by doing certain Structural changes to the way we do business And by lowering that recidivism rate you lower theoretically unless there's a backfill Your corrections cost You know and there are ways to do that. I'm going to put a plug in for for a project that I'm familiar with out in Burlington called mercy connections. They do venturing and And this is kind of common sense. We should be looking at so the cost of incarceration now my number's a stale But at one point with someplace to incarcerate a woman with someplace around 79,000 that's where it's At least there you go In the cost of this um, and the recidivism rate was above 50 percent. You probably have a better understanding. Um, is that about fair? I'm not sure exactly what the numbers are for women. I know that 64 percent of our incarcerated individuals Are people who have been brought back in on a furlough violation It's one of the conversations down that road, but um, I'm not sure exactly what the numbers are for the rest of the time And I commend you by the way for being able to uh, because I like data-driven decision-making. So thank you, mr. Chair But if you want to go down that road, it's the two biggest drivers of that are lack of housing So on the on the other side, uh mercy connections as one-on-one mentoring At the time that that I was involved with this, uh, the cost was 1700 bucks Okay, and the recidivism rate was between 12 and 15 percent now I like the numbers They work and models like that. So in housing, for instance, we now have supportive housing models in this state housing first and sash, although I can't remember off the top of my head the sash stands for But it's a great program and supportive services are helping people Stay at home and it helps with crime. It helps with homelessness It helps people with special needs and these are the kind of smart investments We should be making now I will point out that you can make those smart investments without bonding and you know when I hear and I'm just going to be blunt Well, we don't have the money for it or we don't have the political will for it The easiest thing to do is say let's just bond for it. We'll let the next generation worry about it That's not my philosophy. Um, I want to be looking at, you know, this as a long-term Investment in the state and we should look where we can Whether it's existing revenues because I'm not opposed to that when they're reliable dependable and available And or it's new revenues The bottom line is that cash appropriations are a lot better than bonding for things And we can do that and we should do it to the ratings agencies get this far down to the leads. Yes They they really do a lot of analysis I will tell you that One of them went through our balance sheet and the reserves and the fund balance and wanted an explanation on each one And we gave it to him. We get a lot of follow-up calls. Um, and it's pretty detailed I'm going to be sentimental for a minute. I remember sitting with Jim Reid and going through all that that stuff And I miss him And uh, he had it all in the top of his head. I'm going to look at my reports, but uh, but he was as debt driven And so so frankly of the administrations After him in terms of both the shumlin administration and the scott administration to me making the decisions based on Facts and data Are important and making a decision that doesn't push it off to future generations to figure out how to handle that debt burden Is extraordinarily important to me And it should be for the rest of the state. Yes And I agree with you on most of that and I I prefer to pay for things in cash And I like that idea But I'll bring one example up as we struggle with space in our next segment Talking about space issues in this building when I first got to the house There was this beautiful proposal to expand the state house So that it would work for the people of the state from off committee rooms would be bigger There would be offices for legislators more meeting rooms. It was a beautiful development. It was 6.3 million dollars At that point the house was the wiser body because senator star and I were there And the senate pushed back on it She's a quick study The senate pushed back and said we don't want the perception People will think we're spending money on ourselves and I always argued it was for the people while two years later We cut back the proposal and the estimate had gone up to eight or 10 million two years later We cut back The expansion but what i'm saying is don't want to know but what i'm getting at dick is Sometimes dependent on the economy and the interest rates you can't afford to wait There's the economy number here Um, you know the cost thing to uh accelerate construction What I would say however Is that you have to make that decision about that 6.9 million dollars Within the context of which your overall debt should be so you're at home And you say this is the best project to do because i'm going to you know two years from now It's going to cost me a double. Okay, and I'm going to get my roof fixed now or whatever it is You still have to look at how much can I afford? Absolutely agree That's an important discussion that gets lost sometimes in the political The political shortcut is to put just bond for it Which is why we've made the recommendation the process for cdF because our bonding got out of control um School construction when I first wow when I first came in When I first came in I think we were only spending 32 million dollars a year in 2003 We had a very small capital bills in here Body was over 100 land we would log in it was true. Yeah, it was um We've got a chart on that and we've adjusted it for inflation. I will call it the um I'm sorry. Uh, what's the name of the legislature? Oh, uh, cindy as well Oh Because cindy has said you haven't adjusted for inflation. So we we've renamed it to sythia brown. Yeah, that's it And we looked at it even adjusting for inflation The general trend has been down But the last couple of years post iran has gone up a little bit and we need to say Stop it. Okay. That's our debt outstanding and that's why we've lowered the debt issuance By 23 the recommendation over the last six years because we're trying to bend that curve the other direction Because we're still living with those 20 million dollar. I mean those 20 year bonds that were done earlier And having to retire those So what I would say to you there is that if that was the preferred project and I understand the politics of it, okay Then you need to prioritize that versus Other buildings versus parks versus corrections and make that decision within the context of what you can't afford And that's what this committee has to do. Um, it's a tough job. It's a really tough job And I'm glad I don't have to do it And I was also point out that you get such approach on being office staff, you know And offices and stuff. Yeah I try it's amazing But I I will say thank you for what you do because you don't get paid a lot You don't have a lot of frills you don't hear and stuff in terms of you know You're office space the staff and all that what you do is for the people and I want to say thank you for what you do um, but we have to be within The you know Wow We need to make sure that when we say you know, people who are trying to advance That we have to come out of here believing you'll have our back on that I do now. I will tell you that I think housing is a legitimate Um, uh use of this because especially the first criteria the second quantifiable economic benefits You know the grand risk all all the pieces of what it leverages. It's a good use You have to make a determination whether it's that versus some other need And make that determination within the confines of c-deck One of the things I see is that you're using a lot of that to fund the vhcv Peace within the capital budget rather than using the the the statutory amount, which is the property transfer chance Yeah, and if you look at the housing report That big one that has more appendices than Then report you get to page 24 and 25 so page 25 is I had to put grass in you know me I have grass, you know everywhere Someone said that they're gonna put a you know grass with an x and y curve on my tombstone I said, I hope the trend line is going up and not But if you take a look the the greenish blue line, it depends on whether you're colorblind I guess is a property transfer tax revenue, which you caught up You take a look at the reddish line That is the statutory amount of the property transfer tax in vhcb's appropriation is the is the Gray or whatever you call it lying there and you see the gap is increasing And if you look over here in the chart you see the same thing Notwithstanding Notwithstanding Anymore whatever the term that you use is is is one of the the toughest things in statute You've got a statutory amount Someone comes in and pays their property transfer tax and you say well, it's being used for housing It's being used for conservation and they say oh, okay, okay We're not doing that. We're using it for other resources We should be using that dedicated revenue that's been established for for vhcb for vhcb And that would help you with some of the backfill in the capital plan as well As you're looking at it or the capital budget because you do have money in there for them as well Um fully funded the uh the Vhcb in the property transfer tax fully using that Is our number one recommendation And you know and I said it straight out. They've made short changes over the years time to correct that I certainly appreciate that the idea of paying cash Can you comment on the what the bond houses? Um reaction was to the 37 million dollars. Well, um, it was done essentially Around the same time we were we were doing some of the rating pieces Moody's included in our net tax supported debt We did we've had some conversation about the results We did not at that point know That it would not be net it would be treated as net tax supported debt So we did not have that conversation with the rating agencies. We will in the future Again, I think it's got a quantifiable economic benefit. It's done some good things The question is what else do you have in the capital bill and does it doesn't have a Quantified economic benefit and doesn't do good things and that's the The decision making that you have As I said the political will to get these things done versus putting it off to the next generation And if you take a look at it vhcb Has to pay 1.5 million out of their budget for debt service For the first bond if you were to do another bond Let's say they have another three to four million dollars over the years That's a substantial amount that's taken out now down the road You might want to put some of those dollars into ruttland or to newport or to st. Jay Where you Okay, and and he might say now i'm constrained because I now have to pay this debt service. So let's do another bond And and cover that okay, and that's how we ended up with the pension problem Okay, and that's because we put things off to the next generation. We can't do that We need to make the decisions To to be prudent with our dollars Well, you're speaking about the next generation my email box is suddenly opened up with Demands that I divest us of fossil fuels Literally, I mean they just opened up today. So I have you was really some organization Oh, thank you Mine too Okay, our status has not changed we did do an environmental social governance report called esg It's on the front of our web page. So take a look at that And it shows the value of our constructive engagement And some of the things that we've done in the pension fund to be a little more green Impudent at the same time I would give you an example our our cadian is one of our managers and when they're looking to buy security They they put it into their their their analysis and that analysis includes a presumption That there's going to be a carbon tax now whether it is or not But it what it does is it gives a bias toward that in its selection process. It's not Screening it is not Divestment it's prudent financial management because they're looking at the economic trends going forward Contingencies mismanagement going forward and making investment selections based on that. I think that's a very good process We recently bought into some in a Private equity that does clean technologies for farming lowering the use of pesticides and things like that So we're looking at opportunities to do those things. We're also engaging You know one of the criticisms that we had was that Well, we had the power to engage. We had never co-filed any any any Corporate resolutions. We've now done 17 as of last year and we're now going to be sponsoring not co-filing But sponsoring a couple this year We don't know the answer to that because when you file the company has the ability to go to the sec We don't want it or the ability to walk through it with you and negotiate with you and have it removed It's a positive result. So we don't know where we are on that. You know, we're looking at everything from opioid issues to to a really Dense one where you're looking at how they they respond to contingent liabilities on their balance sheet was Opioids it's a really, you know, really sexy one that everybody wants to join. But it's it's important We're looking at a number of different issues and we're engaging So one of the things that you find in that report is what we put asked every single manager that we deal with How do you manage? How do you recognize climate change? How do you build that into your model and how does that impact your investment decisions? And as well as other ESG questions and we have their responses We summarize their responses some of them back to them and said is this what you mean because it's going to be a public document And they're in that document for you to review So I think that if you can move an investment company instead of my hundred million dollars, that's with um abc investment company instead of Moving a hundred million dollars and say i'm not going to use you anymore because you have fossil fuels if you can change their process And they have five billion dollars of assets or 10 billion of assets under management You can make a change in those companies And we're seeing that the the process that we're using helps. We combine our efforts with new york, california other states, connecticut And work together road island The truly great treasurer down there says magazine are All together by pooling our efforts we're making changes in those companies That to me is a much more responsible way than divestment to me divestment is walking away from the table and saying It's your problem because that's what you're doing when you walk away and somebody else buys the bond or buys the equity And the stock that says I don't care about the environment at the corporate government's meeting. So we're making changes They're slow, but they're there and we're starting to see that in industries That investment managers in terms of their decision making around ESG issues in general and climate change in particular Is fossil fuel still paying is what I'm well, you know when we were asked And that's the question that we asked because I I met a guy last week His who runs a Investment firm and all they do is sell fossil fuel short That's their specialty At one point we had some hedge funds that did that we got out of hedge funds to be very honest Um, and I'm glad we did You know we our companies make those decisions and we asked them seven years ago We asked about coal and we said is coal a good investment? Or do you have coal and why do you have it? And we only had one coal position at the time Because that company was going to be spinning off and creating was natural gas But but leaving coal and and they needed the capital to stay in which is why our investment Manager said that we think this is a good investment So we continue to look at that I would tell you that the cost per barrel When the divestment debate came up several a few years back the cost per barrel was at a low Some place around 20 something 25 and then it went up to about 60 70 so I'd rather You know not settle low to be very candid And then you know we continue to look at it our investment managers continue to look at it And I think if you look at Our our our ESG report and their responses to that and we're going to ask more questions One of the things that I was concerned about is we've got a lot of verbiage, but I want to see metrics And so you've asked um, uh, v perg ask sierra club asked, um Clean you to sit down with us and help us develop metrics That the board would have to approve the or VP would have to approve to work on that So, um, just talking to one member of that group today and say we got to get working on those metrics I got diverted by the five reports that the legislature asked me to do this year including the housing report I want to thank you for all the projects But um, um, but it was worthwhile to be honest just like clean water Sure, we're responding to our constituents Assuming they're not by best Is to say simply we're moving in your direction. We're not quite able to be there yet Yeah, we're moving in a direction Um, um, and we believe that that investment Is is is not a stretch. We've got a line in the report. I'll find you that section Well, no, I'm just gonna say the long entry to my constituents is to say that and then embed your home phone number There you go Ask that I wouldn't give them my phone They have questions, you know, we'd be happy, you know to answer But I would direct them to the environmental social governance report to see the strategies We developed a five point plan, which is on our webpage On how to move toward a a cleaner economy Renewable energies and and and other methodologies And we did this back in 2017 in this report the ESG report said what is our purpose on all five Points, so I direct them to the five point letter. It's on our website. We're giving the address So that's one page instead of my long I think you end up back here in a couple of occasions before the year is yes I need to get to send your start and give these guys a break and into it. So yes We'll cut off here Now I want to say thank you and uh, we're happy to come back and talk about any subject you want including pensions I want to know your your solution to this Pension plan How would you handle it? Next time. Okay All right, so the subject is state house space study I understand you wanted to have a contribution to that Well, thank you for the time master on me. I chief of capital police. Um, I appreciated the effort but into The space study that was done this year. I I wouldn't Uh, just opened my saying this I guess a reminder that this was a short term space needs study And at some point in time the painful conversation is going to have to come up about the long term Space for the for the general assembly and um, I fully recognize that is going to be Plain painful uh for all involved, but there's only so much lipstick you continue to put on the pig So sir before you go on I would just like to say it's simple. We eliminate the house Then we have plenty of room 30 senators. We divide the room up. You guys will have plenty room Just get rid of the house or representatives. We're all set So You gotta know I will tell you from the capital police perspective we've uh, we've grown by one full-time officer since I came on board uh, two and a half almost three years ago. Um, I I don't honestly know if the additional officer that I requested for next year Made it into the governor's budget request. I confess that I don't honestly know how to read those yet Um, I have to learn the language, but um, I suspect that we will continue to grow as the demands in our services do Um, our demands increase every year. We have a nice very steep growth chart and our calls for service Above not only a number, but in complexity Your colleagues have successfully chum the waters efficiently this year If you can clear that, I appreciate that. But, uh, there there have been quite a number of, um, Fairly lengthy investigations we've had to open up This year that take away from our our presence in the building and so I expect as those Continue to increase the our our staff will necessarily need to grow Um, I believe if I understand the history correct our office around there by the elevator used to be a committee um, and Of course we're all prior to me, but trying to run eight officers out of that small space in there is extremely difficult at best our, um Our needs Honestly come down to a lot of human resource needs. I believe Senator you heard some of them in the jet and the joint legislative management committee asking our officers just to Be able to have a place to go and and and get out of the public eye for A few minutes during the day is kind of critical to their health and well-being Not only just having a place to go to the bathroom I mean it takes a little bit to get all this stuff off and there's no place in this building where that is Really available to us Additionally Sarah to know my only female officer brought up, you know Females have a whole different set of issues that Uh, the men are that we aren't dealing with but we need to be respectful of that and understand what we need to do to Make sure she has a a place To take care of those needs Additionally, we are hard-pressed to provide any place for our officers to Decontaminate or or clean up after A incident In addition to providing all forces services, we also provide provide emergency medical services within the building and that's always a question We can go there's a there's a shower on the top of one Baldwin street The pink lady there's one in the speaker's office, but reality we need to take a serious Look at that and to be able to provide those services Six to eight times a year we open up a command center within the capital complex to support Events that are going on either in this building or out on the lawn. Those are the six to eight times that we know about That does not count the times that pop up on us on short notice or Our additional major events that occur out on the lawn currently we're utilizing a Conference room the complex for that and at some point in time there really needs to be Something that pays the right attention to that I rely on Kevin staff to set that up and take it down Those times a year and I think he's about ready to kick into the curb Because it is a pretty intensive operation to get that set up and it takes that room out of play for the remainder of that day Um The coat room I know is a large part of this study The coat room has been all kind of on my list of things. I'd love to see go away Since my first day here is an enormous security risk for placed objects and Removed objects. We have several coats and nice sets of boots and things go missing out of there every year Um, we do not I'm sure you have an idea of what people would do with coats and boots if there was no program Um, I suspect that members I suspect there is a way to accommodate members and senators Um, I think the public will be on their own. They'll probably end up carrying all of them or leaving them in their car I know that's a I know that's a burden, but Um, not only the coats but backpacks You know school groups come in here and they pile 7500 backpacks up under a staircase and You know, we we never worry about the 75 that came with the school group. It's the 76 that somebody drops in there with it Uh, the the remains of concern for us Um, additionally the we we have no Surveillance inside the building. So even though we know we have theft problems Uh, we're dealing with them already this session. There's no There's no We have not crossed that that line to deploy surveillance cameras in the building Actual theft beyond what you assume is somebody picking up your own jacket or Really of what sort of stuff we have cash thefts this session already Really I'd rather not go too much deeper than that on the record Well, I I just for my self-interest and the protection of my colleagues said where I'm just interested in knowing That's going on I know there's no security But I mean There's no cameras. There's nobody posted on doors. I mean people can come and go pretty freely What good is to have more officers on duty if you don't have any Any material to oversee them in place that that's my question It's open this place. It's open right the governor has open house And like uh, wow Like matt said, it's a nightmare with the in especially like we said with the Backpacks anybody could bring anything in in the backpack and drop it off or hang it in the coat room and they're gone The code seems to be the lowest hanging fruit One of the diagrams that I see has a combination of sergeant and orcs your office 19 Your thoughts So with option a when I when I went through and looked at them from our perspective one of the challenges That we currently have in our office and in the sergeant at arm's current office So this if you consider moving either one or more both of those offices We have a a large number of alarm panels in there We have fire panels in each room security panels in each room a lot of electronics though while they can be moved I suspect they will be Expensive to move and in some cases it's fairly difficult to move Um, I do I don't think that we would have a problem with that Shared spaces in the coat room with the sergeant at arm's office We often occupy a chair in the janitor's office anyway, especially out of session So I don't think that's a that's a heavy lift for us If our current space is become shared with it Which I believe is one of the options in there to expand the copy room I think we would still maintain a desk in there We would The majority of our equipment would go out But we would probably still maintain the desk in there just to monitor those alarm panels In our current office if that were to expand to be the copy room And I've talked fairly extensively about you know sharing that space to increase the security of the copy room as well Make it less Given the forward-facing public person, but make it less come in than self-service As it is now Talk more about that, but I think we could still maintain a small presence in there to monitor those alarms you were Total space needs Which we're talking about earlier for instance people needing to be compressed to do whatever is necessary I don't envision that being in this building I don't need to center and matter of fact the space study in there specifically references that we probably should be out in the building And that means operational needs You don't want to have all your eggs in one basket from the emergency services standpoint If something does go very wrong, you would like to have someone immediately in from from outside That is uh kind of the the approach you take into this we we recognize that there's not the space Here to do anything. So if we concentrate on getting you space outside Leaving you a chair in the present room or you've got the ability to monitor equipment I think that meets our needs just so we're Our systems are fairly easily movable with the exception of that fire system But again, I think we would end up leaving an officer in a chair somewhere by one of those panels anyway That's what we typically do now a year around. We have some special modifications to the fire alarm system here that I'll be happy to go into the off the record, but uh, we Some Out of preference if if I may Something that keeps us centralized between the pavilion the springboard in here Is the best Place for us I know we had approached bgs a while back about a space that was coming available in that area and the The renovation the 109 111 renovation was preempting that was preempting Us being able to get that. I think that As long as they still have a presence in here, they could have their main office outside Yeah, but would you want all your officers here? Why they're not ever all here at the same time unless there's a Right, but you would be maintaining pedestrian That's not the right word You would be maintaining foot traffic patrols throughout the building and say no And they got their station up in the card room and they've got the room Down by the lounge. They wouldn't notice any change. He wouldn't notice any change space and for instance the female officer Had come in talking about the need for her to drop off kids in front of the joint legislative management committee And that she Is constantly having to be in full uniform because she can't get changed before she gets here Like to be able to have a place to get changed After she drops off her kids so she's not Coming to the school with guns, but she probably is going to be for both They're going to take your guns away too. We would not notice any difference No, sir, not at all and you keep in mind we do have a mission outside the link We have a mission to assist bgs in the complex and we do that fairly regularly as well As far as the what you were talking about is you've noticed some There was I'm not sure where that space Sits now in the grand scheme of things, but we did identify some over there that would meet Most all of our needs And where's the off-stakes space that you have now in one of the buildings on the office in six ballroom Yes, sir. And that's on the same that's in the same spot with With bgs security. So it is A Good spot to have How many buildings down from the main bgs office is that one? So we're down the wall on street, you know where uh, the hopkins street comes down to the right across from right So it's the first building now on the left. Okay one with the defender general and That's Yes And you know with with all the things that we're we're working through, you know, our our operations plan looked about this thick for State and budget, you know, you have to have a place to go and work on those things So how big is the bgs portion of that? You talk about in the sixth ballroom. Yeah, it's Uh, what half that floor and half the floor below it. Uh, yeah, we have a locker room So perfect locker room all set out there you go Um, the space that we kind of eyeballed over there quite probably we did eyeball some space in that building as well. Um The risk management folks and AOA and the ethics commission currently occupied The space we looked at over here was Ethics They don't have as much bulless I Would just know that as we were going through the uh, the individual options and option a they mentioned Camrose from the sergeant in arms office I don't think that's a big lift the bigger lift is modifying our policy to allow it. Um, the Under option b it turns the lounge into a large meeting space and I would Um suggest you examine the security concerns with that based on what's hanging on the walls Of that building from if for no other reason Um, you know the option c is still the coat room still remains an issue Um And you know option d is the one that messes with the cafeteria I encourage you at some point if you come back to this Maybe they have the chef from the cafeteria down to visit because they are absolutely bursting at the seams of their machine You know it gets worse and they weren't they weren't It wasn't in an oversight of anybody just would you know nobody really thought about that I think in this space assessment. So they probably need to Have a chance to talk Appreciate that Because uh, if you get back to camp if you ever get back to talking about cameras I'll tell you the building's wired for him already And we know about what it would take So what kind of like the cameras It's a policy policy, right Right I thought we'd do that. That would be just us If you don't want to well you can cameras at the outside doors facing out right the question Is who who would gain access to them or could gain access to them? And what could they do with them if they were inside could they be used to eavesdrop and spy on people? And that I mean it it's a big it's a big question I know there's cameras everywhere and people are completely losing their privacy with facial recognition And if somebody if the wrong person can get into those systems and start Accessing conversations that people think are private and so that's one of the concerns We're probably going to talk more about that on the new upcoming joint The legislative management committee Which is currently in the building of the house Okay, anything else you need to Thank you, man. I'm here for a while. Anything? Sure Let's see. We had this guy named star If we if we let senators dark them up we can just finish this conversation. He has a really good inexpensive plan His vote earlier in the yeah, yeah Perhaps we're not going to listen to right now I wish you'd get your witness that chairs good structure The chair can even get You should have told me I brought my chair over Yeah, that's thank you Thank you for asking me in and you know when this this was all put together last year There was Never any idea. I don't know how much this thing cost you guys are us, but it must have been kind of a serious number and And I but I still don't know How much you you want to spend or don't want to spend but Santa maz and said we got to do this reasonable So, uh, I I took your document home and I actually read the whole thing and Well at least one of us are real guys And uh, well, if you had to ship or I said I see you had a cross through I think it's be diagram Be or whoever had this before Your first gave it to me Yes, so I figured B was off the table Anyhow So basically for our concerns here in In the senate We had the first floor diagram A and first floor diagram C There is page 15 In 17 So, uh, I already had heard that The sergeant browns didn't care to move Her office Didn't care so that would mean that if you did do that It moved to room 10 It was going to mess up The coat room and the mail And then over on the left hand side of A You got The coffee room was going to get altered And then you're going to take the lounge And mess that up So I said Well, hell it doesn't take a whole lot of thinking To figure this mess out Just take the lounge and go down by the door where the door goes into the education room Well to the left is the door that goes in the lounge You could put a wall across there. You could put a movable partition a sliding partition across there and then Some committee would use that room during the session And in your report it states how the lounge is under underutilized It's not used to its potential And then you could leave the sergeant arms where it is You could leave room 10 or where it is You could use room 10 in the summer for the gift shop And the only thing Is we've got we've got one little corner In that back corner of the lounge Where Maybe it's the IT or one slave council's entity Well, I don't know about IT but they should have their own office. Well, but he has to be there to help He helps people with IT problems in the lounge, but he could he could have a little desperate back up here in this corner He don't take much room. Yeah, but that would be the only disturbance I don't know what you take the action The truth the truth Well, but he needs to be there because he helps people all the time especially on payday and stuff He's running around from one desk to the other he could be right there But the truth The truth the matter is as senator star said that space is underutilized There's all this big open space and that big table in the middle we could build little workstations that actually have little Little privacy petition and you could put 10 times the number of workspaces in that lounge Even after you took out a room for a committee. I think it's a great idea and it's the most reasonable Financially you could do this cheap in a short term Well, the other thing that I should mention is I agree I don't pay for it. I don't get around to visit all the senate committees very often But if there's a committee that's already busier than What my room is In needs space because they're cramped wicked bad They could do the lounge room. I doesn't need a great big room. You know if you get Eight people ten people in there. I'm fine I don't need a room for 20. Yeah, but that one has a fireplace. Don't you want a fireplace? That room is the former supreme court room Historically if you're trying to keep this building semi intact But you could Permanent or folding wall that does not harm the integrity of the building It would be fairly simple that way if we get to a place where we do an expansion You take it out and reclaim it. No harm no foul And I've been here in the summer People came going that way, right? It's rocked off, you know, the winner either and uh, right but You know, I just I will say I personally Every morning at 7 a.m. That's exactly a real fun. But no, there's room in that room. That's it. Look at all that Open it's a bit. I'm curious. So we've got BTS in the room. We can have a chat about the Significance of historical I want to know if senator star's going to get $19,000 for his proposal Like we paid the consult is that all 19 rain If you go if you got all this from 19, you did get a good deal because I got architecture for me and that wasn't They usually don't stop Just a few fingers Well, I I offer that as a solution and and you know, the supreme court's been gone from there a long long time and If we don't want to if we as a legislature um, you know, don't want to Spend any money to add on a new place And we want to try to get by with what we've got in a workable Situation we I mean, I don't know how you could do it any cheaper and more convenient and if You know, the walls would be open if you had a movable partition That could be open all summer and people could look in there As an alternate thought, um, theoretically you could do exactly the same thing in the coat room You're gonna be short, but then you don't Then you don't have a coat So part of the idea about eliminating the coat room was that legislatures Could technically hang their coats in their own committee I mean, I was over in the house for 20 odd years It works excellent here But I you know Finally get to the third floor to make it where they have the coke and then hang And that well or or then for the public to be crammed in like in natural resources and senator starck's committee Is the same way we've seen it in here You got 20 people crammed into a tiny committee room and they're all hanging on to their coat now because there's no place to And then there are coats on the wall Yeah, I will only say that earlier we heard that there is an ongoing problem in the coat For security purposes People who are having things disappear In the coat room now, maybe we need a camera there But there are other long term, but let me just ask you this and I know janet's gonna hang me, but I've got to ask the question If you were to move into janet's current room, this is the sardine neurons office Does that committee room meet your needs? Definitely because basically that room and In a judiciary room or maybe if you look at it, they're basically the same size Except that has to be built in to make it smaller. Yeah Well that would be Distorted cameras I know that historic camera I keep telling me like that And That's a field No, that that room would Would work well for a committee room, but uh, you know, I Feel that the sardine neurons Likes that office and it it does serve the needs of of that job and And why Everybody when you can do one little thing for A few hundred or $2,000 and that would satisfy our needs of senators and it would keep the The building So anyway, that's my two senators Thank you You see the sign up from your left the sign up from where it says now agriculture Two four six seven so while yeah, you know, I I have basically Six to ten a day down there You are just oh, I end here crew and this crew and good day You sit at the end of the table and when you get up to leave the room Six people have to get up and move and get out of the room so you can get out if it was Just a little bit But you know as far as for the committee to do its work It's a good spot. It's quiet. You don't get you know much noise and uh, but it's it's the guests that come The witnesses that come it's kind of embarrassing on us to put them in that The situation Tell me again where if you were to have that portion of the current Legislative lounge You want to be in the back where the fireplace is Where would you actually have the door coming into that? Right the door down by the education room is already adorable like this and you could that's this under what? You could make that room smaller, but if you put a movable Wall in there you probably want it straight Well, that was one of the problems of the coat room to A camera in the coat room After all the initial squawking Over that had no audio just a video camera in the coat room. Do you suppose that would help the theft issue? Okay, are there theft issues in the coat room or if not really had much That's yours But we don't have to mess with that Well, maybe Somebody down there. Well, it's not an easy task that you'll have before you. I think it's A solvable I agree with senator star that that's the simplest one that anybody's come up with yet and we can make it function very easily Without spending a lot of money Eric can do that If you were changing The design of the room or You know We have to give him institutions to get it He's been wanting this room And the rate on I On Mondays, I have all the committee members climbing their pranks, you know board in their trunk They don't bring it from out of state Thank you I didn't know you wanted me to so I would wait. I'm sorry. I just wanted to Janet Miller sergeant and Before senator star leads, I just want you to consider one thing. I think so when the architects were here We were talking a little bit about that and I think you should just check with them That ceiling is really high in the legislative round also So if the partition would have to go all the way to the ceiling or would it be too much noise? Just to have a rate you might check the cost of that because A lot and I don't know do you remember any Conversations once you're putting up a petition the height isn't the height really isn't the cost factor It really isn't in construction now to add another couple feet It was suggested in here using part of that as the company's email Yeah Just consider them. Yeah, that there might be more of a cost than you might think that's All right, I'll keep hearing about the expenditures, but you know I come back Taking what's in the coat room now out Doesn't cost us anything I know that that means you're using your room in the front That doesn't cost us anything either Putting up a wall is going to cost something And if you put up the wall and you're trying to wrestle with historic preservation at the same time That might be a whole nother issue, but I'll cross that bridge when you compare it to better space for We've got two options to consider being around Yeah, right, so a bunch of those Yeah, that's all Did you want to say anything else? No, I love Senator Stark Yeah, she doesn't dare She still gets her room Thank you, Bill. I just think that the Surgeon of Arms is kind of the face of the state House especially in the summer No, that's central. I think they need to stay there But I like this I like that space down in the lounge way better for the mini space than this one here You don't know until we try Eric, you can't answer any of that question right now I could relay some of the sentiment separate over time because I know I've wandered through that room Eric, Phil, from BGS, I wandered through that room myself and And considered well, if we had a wall here, that would equal a room and that would be a functional I know that the curatorial staff and others went to great lengths to take down walls in the 70s and 80s Room 10 used to be divided Time's changed Time's changed Can you tell that curatorial staff will move them? 50 years They're in my building How about Barry? I heard there's a nice office space in Barry Kevin, you sort of put it in this picture because this one plant has IT in the Coat Room 2 And if we follow through on what's being suggested here, all the Coat Room space is the exact same way it is now You guys need to move from where you is So kind of more direct of IT All right Just make sure I'm on the same plan Are you talking any particular plan here or are you talking just a partition? Well, we're looking, I'm looking at Diagram A and we have a proposal to be modified from some extent by putting a wall in the legislative plan But if we are leaving the Coat Room the way it is, you're not going to be able to move into that place Correct So it would be challenging for legislators that are in the legislative lounge that you rely on that support for accession There's room that we are more than happy to adjust We are incredibly flexible, he just needs a space, that person needs a space to be so they're accessible That's it Our ideal situation was to be just outside of the lounge where you can see the extended Coat Room in Diagram A That would also be a help desk location, not just Coat Room Where we would actually recover some space in the Ledge Council's current main office as well It's the thought process behind that So currently we occupy a space in the Ledge Council We occupy the Coat Room and we occupy a small desk in the lounge itself If you want to follow those together in the orange location that was identified as Coat Room They would fit there, it would be an accessible location to anybody in the lounge It's at the bottom of the stairs and again you recover those locations You do have the possibility of using that purple space called the meeting where Bobby is currently looking Right, the ag room is going to be open Yeah Okay, anybody else want to chip in? So one more sentiment about that So in my perspective the whole legislative lounge is big and spacious and not efficiently laid out or used We could go in there and build actual little workstations and put in more computers than there are there currently Even after you cut Senator Star's space out and leave IT a nice corner office in there Because they do provide tons of support for legislators so I don't want to see them outside of that And then if they need more space I think Senator Star's current committee room is the perfect space It's big enough for a couple people in a couple of desks and you're right there conveniently located Good We'll keep kicking it around Anybody else? That sounds good Thank you, motion to adjourn Thank you all for coming