 Hello everybody and welcome to this webinar where we will be exploring the new business transformation framework from the Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership. My name is Ben Kelloud. I'm the Director of Business Strategy here at CISL and I'm really delighted to be able to host you through this webinar. For those of you that haven't come across the Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership, we've been around for over 30 years, we're part of the University of Cambridge and our purpose is to activate leadership globally to transform economies for people, nature and climate and we do that through in four ways. So we both educate leaders, we also convene leading organisations together to look at how they can collectively shape the both the regulation and financial institutional markets to create a more stable economy. We also accelerate innovation through those start-ups and bringing the best minds and industry together to crack wicked problems and then finally we also create what we call foresight which is around making the case what do we need to be doing today in order to create a sustainable future tomorrow and that's very much what today is all about. So we're sharing with you some of our foresight which we're working on which is looking at the whole role of business transformation. As we know businesses are facing increasing external pressures and high expectations from employees, from investors, from governments, from customers in order to show how they are part of the solution and not part of the problem that we're facing as society. So today I'm really delighted to be joined by two great business leaders from two terrific businesses. So first of all we are joined by Phil Ruckston who is the Chief Sustainability Officer at Crota International and also Steve Werner who is Strategy and Integration Director at Dentsu International. A very warm welcome gentlemen. Thanks Ben. Hi. Thank you. Hello. And we'd love to be hearing more from Phil and Steve shortly. So what I'd like to do now is just give you a brief overview of the business transformation framework and a little bit about why we created it but we'll be exploring that more during the Q&A in a moment. So I'll be briefly explaining the framework. We'll then move into a panel discussion between me, Steve and Phil and then we'll be exploring what some of the implications of that might be as well. So that's the flow for today. So the framework really was developed in order to think about how is it that businesses are transforming? The research we've done revealed that I think businesses realise that the current role of business isn't functioning well but what does good look like? What do businesses, what does good look like for business? That was unclear. And so businesses weren't really able to get a clear sense of where is their current performance, what does good look like and how to get there. And so that's why we started to think about how can we create a framework to help answer those questions. And so the business transformation group, which is a group of leading businesses that we brought together, which includes Denso International, Crater International, also IKEA Inca Group and Majeed Alfoutain. And we came together to really balance out both what is the academic foundation for what a leading business needs to look like, but also how is that practical and rooted in real business practice. And so we collaborated together in order to create this transformation framework. So what it looks to do is really looks around, really we've identified 12 areas of business transformation. So these are 12 areas which businesses can look at in order to transform their role. And so I just want to briefly walk you through them, which you can see there on the visual. So the first one is the purpose and values of the business. Actually, what is it there to do? What's the primary goal of the organisation? The second one is around corporate strategy and innovation. So how is that purpose being translated into corporate strategy and driving the innovation across the business? The third is senior leadership. So what are the capabilities and behaviours and how are senior leaders demonstrating leadership across the business? The fourth is what we call environmental and social parameters. What do we mean by that? Parameters are really the boundaries within which a business executes its strategy. So what are those parameters? And so they are what we're identifying here is increasingly reflecting leadership is what are those environmental or social limits that the business needs to operate within, such as being net zero or nature positive. The fifth area is accountability and reporting. So how is the business going about really embedding that business and strategy into the into the business? And how is that accountability works through in terms of roles and functions? The sixth area is around functional strategy and innovation. So once we've got the corporate strategy, how is that cascaded into be that functional or countries, geographies, strategies and is reflected in those? The seventh area is operational leadership. So how is that really embedded into the core operations and business processes within the across the organization? The eighth is the all important people processes. So things like performance management, talent management, leadership development and so on and capacity building. How is the strategy and purpose embedded into those key people processes? The ninth area is financial management. So what are the financial decision making instruments and tools which really govern decision making where that seems like capital expenditure and so on. The tenth area is external stakeholder engagement. And so that's really around critically. How is the business both scanning and understanding the external environment through stakeholders, both feeding into the strategy and decision making, but also how they engage with stakeholders to execute and deliver their purpose and strategy, be that through collaboration, through partnerships, through advocacy to shape the regulatory or create the right enabling conditions external to the organization. The eleventh area is around investor engagement. So recognizing that of course bringing investors with the business and creating the right investor base is critical to the journey. So how is it the businesses are what sort of investors are they attracting? What sort of dialogue and engagements they're having with their investors in order to activate their purpose and strategy? And then the twelfth and final area is really underpinned by individual and collective leadership. So looking at what are some of the core principles that really underpin that. And that what we're looking at there is is integrating some of our other thing across CSL, which is capturing our leadership for sustainable future, which is looking at the core principles of leadership, and taking into account both individual and corporate purpose, thinking about the place in context in which they operate. And then we're identifying as sort of the key principles, things like being connected, being courageous, and those sorts of elements. And that's what we're sort of drawing out in the underpin by that individual and collective leadership. So both an individual level, at a departmental organizational level, and beyond in terms of how those businesses are shaping the external context around them. So there's sort of the 1212 areas. And just to give you a bit of a flavor, then what we've also broken that down into is, what are some of the responses to business as usual. So business as usual is the conventional mainstream approach where the role of businesses to maximize profit for shareholders. And if that's the primary business successes understood through the metric of financial performance alone, what are what are those what are the responses to that? And so we've identified through this and through our unleashing sustainable business papers, which we can send the link and share it with you, because we've identified if you like, for responses that business is usual. So starting on the left hand side, we've got short term self interest or otherwise known as corporate social responsibility, if you will, which is where the core goal of the organization is short term financial value maximization. So still very much in that sort of business as usual core goal. And sustainability is really peripheral to the core activity of that business, which is aimed at maximizing financial value for the shareholders. And so sustainability response or purpose is really a reactive approach to, if you like, navigate and pacify negative stakeholder pressure, where that's coming from, where that's regulatory or otherwise, and it will be a very organized way, but is therefore peripheral to the core business. We then move on to more long term self interest, which is where the goal is still financial value maximization, but into the medium to long term. And so we start to see in these business responses, a relationship where they understand their dependencies with with social and natural value and capital, but they invest in it where there's that win-win territory, where they can prove that by investing in natural or social capital, that that will promote medium to long term profits. And so it's about understanding those risks. And we split that out into two, but developing that in that early stage and more mature stage or in this long term self interest, otherwise known as enlightened shareholder value. So as we move through into the sort of more mature, it's still about that long term focus on financial value is the dominant role and purpose of the business, but they're also starting to consider well being for society and the environment as critical enablers of that long term value proposition. So then the fourth, and if you like final version is really if you like the full leadership and sustainability, which is where the what's critical is that the business is no longer just looking at profit maximization and assuming that like business as usual, that if they do that, then the market will enable maximization of well being. That's the current thinking behind business as usual, but instead with purpose driven organizations, they if you like internalize that purpose. So they demonstrate what their unique and distinctive contribution is to well being for all people and planet, which is distinctive to them and they're delivering that profitably as a private sector business. So that's the difference is the whole orientation is how they use their core competence to serve society and so all of the decision making is aligned around that purpose and their and the value it creates for society. So financial value is seen as both the means and an outcome to delivering the purpose rather than the ultimate purpose of the business. And incidentally that fourth category is also aligned with the first ever principle based standard for a sustainable purpose led business, which was published under the British Standards Institute called PAS 808, which is free to download. So that's very much aligned with that. So we have these sort of four categories, if you like, of responses to business as usual. And of course, some businesses might progress through that on their journey. Some might leapfrog and they'll all be in different places. So that's why we call them types of responses to business as usual. So what we've done in the coming back to the framework, as we said, OK, so here are the 12 areas of business transformation and what does that look like across each of these four areas? And so that we and what is the evidence you would see in businesses that work in those different stages of responses? And so the business can start to say, well, what best describes us? Where are we across those 12 areas? And once they've understood where they are, can start to think about, well, where do we want to be? Where are aspirations? Do we want to be purpose driven throughout or actually is our aspiration to be long term self interest? And then start to think about how do we then close that gap and we'll come on to that more later. But that's the thinking behind the framework. So just to give you an example of what that looks like, and we're sharing today the preliminary diagnostic. So there's two versions of this. There's the preliminary diagnostic, which we're publishing today. And then there's the more full, more detailed framework, which we're looking to publish later on. And we're in the process of beta testing this, which is why we want to share it. We'll be hearing from Stephen Phil around their experiences of beta testing it. So as you can see here, we've got the first two of those categories of 12 categories I described. So let's take purpose and values. You can see it asked first of all, what's the question it's trying to answer? So it's to what extent do the business high level, highest level goals and decision making parameters explicitly set out to improve people's lives while operating within the natural boundaries set by the planet? And so what you'll see is we start to set out. What would you see if you were in short term self interest, long term self interest developing and so on? What would be that evidence? And then again, for corporate strategy and innovation? What are some of the things that you might be seeing? So for example, within on purpose and values in that short term self interest, you might see that there's a short term financial value maximizations, either an explicit goal of the business or it might be implicit where it's part of its perception of this view of fiduciary duty through to maybe purpose driven, which is around setting out a clear ambition and a distinctive strategy that contributes to long term well-being for all people and planet and its distinctive contribution to it. That's what you'd be seeing as an explicit statement under being a purpose driven goal. So that gives you a bit of a flavour of the overall framework. So so now what we'll be doing is is exploring how this is being used in the business and in businesses. And so now I'd like to we can now move into the panel discussion. I'd like to just explore and bring in Steve and Phil to explore further what their experiences are of of this. Now, if I can maybe turn to you first, Phil, I know you've had a really interesting career at Crowder and you've worked in various commercial roles in Crowder and that since 2021 you've moved into the Chiefs of the same city officer position. I mean, Phil, maybe you could give us start by maybe just outlining tell us maybe a little bit about Crowder and the journey that the business has been on on sustainability and your role within it. Is that OK? Yeah, no, that's fine, Ben. Thank you. And hello, everyone. Forgive me, I've got a slight cold. So if I'm sounding a bit gravelly, it's really nice to be here and really pleased to be part of the the launch of this framework. And it's been a really interesting exercise for Crowder to be part of as well. Just for those who don't know Crowder, you know, we strive every day to live our purpose, smart science to improve lives. We're a speciality, chemical speciality ingredient company focused on consumer and life science markets and a lot of our high performance technologies power the brands that everyone uses every day. Our one of the important things to think about here just for a moment is your purpose is very much aligned with culture. For those of you who know Crowder, our heart remate worth at Sea Hundred Company, but our heart remains in Yorkshire in the north of England. And the culture stems from that. You know, we are very much a pragmatic get on with it type company. And so, you know, very keen to see how this can actually translate into what we need to do within the organisation. We've been sustainable, if you like, from when we first started back in 1925. Our first raw material was a waste stream from the wool industry, wool grease to make lamblion. And I'll suggest that it's serendipity rather than planning that over the years we built up a lot of sustainability assets, one of the key ones being our use of more biobased raw materials and petrochemical derived raw materials. But our formal sustainability journey probably started in response to our customers in the early 2000s. We launched our first sustainability report in 2006, 2007. I was part of the team, we pulled that together and I've been connected to the sustainability strategy and reporting ever since then. A lot of my time, as you say, has been in the commercial side of the business, primary in our materials business, supplying performance ingredients into various materials where sustainability is right to the heart of it. The transformational moment for Crowder is probably when we connected and realised that our sustainability was actually at the heart of the corporate strategy and we launched our commitment to be climate, land and people positive in 2020. And that was a 10 year commitment for a can do company like Crowder. That was a bit scary because it was setting very high conditions. We weren't quite sure how to get there. For honest, we're probably still not quite sure how to get to some of them. But the discussion from there, our aim was a broad based approach. So we look at climate, land, nature and people. We're thinking about restoration rather than just do less bad and looking to connect it to the planet's blueprint of the UN Sustainable Development Goals. And, you know, it's a terrible cliché to say it, but we're on that journey and we're also on that journey to become more purpose led. And I won't pretend for a moment that we're there. But that's been why it's been so useful to work with CISL and the business transformation group in this. Phil, thanks very much indeed. I know it's been a fascinating journey that you've been on. Thank you, Steve, if I could maybe turn to you, it'd be great to hear a bit more about Densu International's journey and your role in that. Over to you. Certainly, can you hear me? I apologize, I dropped off a little bit earlier. But thank you very much for inviting me to the webinar. For those of you who aren't familiar with Densu, we're one of the largest digital media and communications networks. We work with 95 of the world's top 100 advertisers and we have a range of service lines, including media and creative and customer experience. So we're active across one hundred forty six countries headquartered in in Japan and with about over seventy thousand employees. So that's just a quick intro for us. I joined Densu this this year in in June in the social impact team. We're we're in charge of implementing our social impacts strategy for 2030, which was formulated back in 2021. It was structured around three key pillars. So those those being sustainable world, which includes our net zero target and target to reach people with campaigns to promote sustainable consumption. And then we have fair and open society, which includes our DEI targets, such as gender, gender targets for for management and then also digital for good, recognizing as a digital communications company that impact in in reaching people to upskill, especially young people with with with those skills. We Densu International as I said, part of a larger larger network and has been operating for the business outside of Japan up until the end of last year. And this year we're in the process of integrating with the Japan business as one one density, which is just one more country. But of course, as our headquartered country, it's obviously a very key stakeholder and there's lots of different companies and a lot of breadth and variety of the business based in Japan. The social impacts and system, which was called the sustainability strategy on the Japanese side was was set and agreed in 2021. But as part of this integration journey that we're on, we've embarked on a new materiality assessment this this year and also introduced new value creation model. So integrating those social impacts theme areas, but also explain more about how we go about creating and achieving those ambitions for 2030 and beyond. So that's that's a lot of what my my role has been as as helping with the integration side. And I think that this framework is a really it's an opportune time to revisit and check where where we where we think that we're at and where we're going with our with our colleagues in Japan. Thanks. Thanks, Steve. That's really helpful context. I think fascinating how you say you're your very different types of businesses in terms of the industries you're in, the structure and so on, but all on a similar really pushing their ambitions so much. And it's been fascinating, I think, also through the group, see how different businesses like yours and IKEA, I think a group and so on are on that journey, the challenges they're facing. So if we maybe turn to the the the the framework of work and just set the context before we do. So in terms of the journeys you've been on, I'd be interested to hear a bit more about what are some of the challenges that you faced in terms of that to transform the business? What are some of the the broad challenges that you've that you've faced? Maybe I'll maybe I'll tend to you first. Yeah, then you could start by saying how long we got because you know, as as all organisations listening into this would recognise, there's a lot of challenges. I'm going to pick up on just a couple of those and I think probably the first one to recognise is the short versus long term lens and the challenges are ensuring that you're meeting the needs of your stakeholders in the short term while ensuring that you're developing that longer term approach to both purpose and delivery of of your sustainability strategy, frankly, and and having that at the heart of your corporate strategy. And that is a real you know, particularly today, you know, times for a lot of organisations and economies are tough. And there's a lot of pressure from certain stakeholders, be that your customers, your shareholders or your employees to focus on some of the short term, which drags you back to the left hand side of the frameworks piece, while ensuring that everything is still aligned to the long term. And part of that is a challenge of understanding will kind of where are we? What are the priorities and how do we measure that we're on track to stay on the long term? And so that's the first piece that short versus long term. And then the other piece really that the challenge is that the competing needs, the competing impacts and dependencies of different stakeholders. And, you know, it will be different for different companies. We're a UK listed puts you 100 company. And clearly, we have stakeholders and our investors who have certain expectations and benchmarks and metrics that they would look to CRODA for. And one of our other key stakeholders, our employees may look at that through a different lens. And there's a different materiality with our employees. And then obviously, we're only here in a way because of our customers. And so there are there are very many competing expectations at any moment in time between different stakeholders. And that's what purpose like companies got to try and navigate through bringing stakeholders with them, keeping an eye on the long term. Thanks for yeah, that's right. And I guess obviously there's so many external pressures that are buffeting businesses. And also there are still businesses operating within market and regulatory failures, which are creating headwinds as well. That's all the very much of realities that you need to operate within. Yes. So Steve, what will be your take? What do you feel is something that I realize you're new to the business, but I'd be interested to get your take on what are some of the sort of transformational challenges that you're finding? All of that resonates with me. And I think that that's captured well in the executive briefing that you have for the framework as well, those those sort of dueling pressures with the that wanting to to focus on the long term, but you also have to balance the short term demands and those those shocks that that keep coming up and take your all of your stakeholders together with you on that journey that that very much resonates with my experience not only with this company, but my previous company working in sustainability as well. I think another challenge is measuring performance and the availability of of data and the having the high level high level commitment and wanting to get there, but the investment required in order to get the robust data that you would need to be able to manage these these issues effectively is another big challenge. We have a management strategy of saying we're a business to business company, but our goal is to be business to business to society. But how do we how do we get that? That's a that's a great it's it's it's something to get behind, certainly motivating as an employee, but then to say what is this? What is this impact? How do we make sure that we're having the most positive impact? What can we do to change that? I think that that data piece can be quite challenging. That's really helpful. And what I'm hearing about is sort of threads, I guess, running through what you're saying is almost coming back to what's the value proposition, how you how you're aligning that with different stakeholder expectations and how you demonstrating that and how you can find in that sort of golden thread that runs through that to help you not just tell a story, but also evidence it as well, I guess as as as part of that. And that super I can imagine also as well in complex organizations like yours, it's not just the external stakeholder network, it's also the internal, you know within within sort of complex and corporates and so on. So super. And if we if we then turn to the framework itself, what's your sense of what what problem do you feel it's trying to solve in the context of that business transformation? What what yeah, what do you feel maybe feel again, if I can maybe turn to you to kick us off, what yeah. Yeah, so I think it's interesting when when most organizations talk about sustainability, we'll talk about the themes and the progress that we need to make towards reducing our impacts on planet and society or restoring some of the negatives for planets and society. And so for organizations who are active, leading, engaging in thinking about this, there's a huge focus on OK, how do we get to net zero? You know, what are the actions we've got to take to get to net zero? How do we become nature positive? How do we improve positive social impacts? But when you actually get down to it, you know, part of this is the organization match fit to be able to make that leap to focus on those outcomes, while still managing the expectations and satisfying all stakeholders. And as you said, Ben earlier on, as a purpose led organization, you are prioritizing some of these things in a different way, hopefully for the long term, hopefully to meet the needs of all stakeholders. But a lot of the the effort and the discussion and the support that is out there focuses very much on the steps you need to take to get to net zero. Not necessarily how's the organization set up? How much fit is it? And what are the elements that need to be transformed within the organization? We'll call them the enablers and certainly probably called the enablers that make it easier to get there. And it doesn't cause organizational chaos, stress still be chaos and stress, by the way, but minimize those on the journey. So I think that's what the the framework from the business transformation group is hopefully helping to address. That's really helpful. And I think it also resonates with the not only the business transformation group, but a lot of the leaders that are coming on our programs. That's what we're finding is that whereas maybe 10 years ago, we were a lot of it was around why is sustainability an issue? Why did it urgent? What are the drivers around the why? I think now it's very much around the how. So I think business leaders are far more aware of the existential issues facing their business. And now they really want to get into how do I do this? How do I navigate all that short term, long term uncertainty, complexity and so on. And so it's really, really interesting to hear. Thank you. Steve, what's your sense that that resonates or anything you'd want to add in terms of what problem you feel that the framework is trying to solve? Absolutely. No, I agree with everything that's been said so far. And I think for me, I think this this tool would companies face an increasing demands of from from customers as part of supply chain due diligence, plus all of these ratings, we have a lot of information that it can be. As Phil said, sort of, do you have a do you have a net zero strategy and go through without the the wider why of what what you're trying to do and what what you're trying to accomplish. And I think what's nice about this is it's not answering to to someone else. It's a self reflection, self diagnosis. So it's it's really a tool that you can bring there for an honest reflection. And everyone, everyone's going to have a different take of of of where where they think that performance lies. And I think that it because it's spread out over 12 themes, it allows for not trying to aggregate into a larger score, but really just showing performance in those those 12 different areas and being able to reflect much much more specifically. I think those are some of the benefits that stood out to me. Right, thanks. Thanks. Yes. And I guess when we conducted some research prior to this as a group, it's maybe worth sharing with with the audience is how what we found is a lot the indices the same with the ESG indices that are out there are usually safe or very much sort of focused on the what often years. So looking at things like your carbon impact or have you and so on jobs is very important. But it was less of an emphasis on the how. So actually, what does good business transformation mean? Where is the business on that journey and so on? So those that are really wanting to accelerate their journey, how can they really get that sense of where they're starting from? What do they need to prioritize as an organization? So and to try to say both also, I think even just being clear about what are those enablers? What should I even be looking at? Let them know what good looks like for them. What should I be considering? What are the different levers I can pull within an organization? And so on to try to get that level of discrimination, not just the business overall, but what are those elements where we maybe further ahead or doing well, where we may be lagging behind? What's the relationship between them and so on? Super so I guess and I know you're both and because there's a group where we're now testing the framework and we're very much in that kind of beta testing mode and you're both saying different organizational contexts and the different stages in that sort of testing. But it'd be great to get your your your sense of, you know, what's been your experience of using the framework in your journey? So maybe just a mix of Steve, I maybe just turn to you. What's what's been your experience so far? Where are you on your on your use of the framework? We we are still very much in in the early stages. So as I mentioned earlier, our our goal for using this framework is going through as first our team here based out of the international markets to do a sense check of where we think our performances as a as a wider wider group and then engage in with our colleagues on the on the Japan side and say, how do you feel about this? Do you feel that this the are we on the same page of where we think our our performance is? So that's the that's the wider plan. I think very one of the unique aspects about this is the asking you to place yourself. And I think that that's been the biggest right now we're going through it and finding the the proof points and finding out that gap analysis of what's the information that we don't have here. We're going to need to of course engage other colleagues throughout the business. But when it gets down to it, I think everyone goes, well, which because as you start putting the data in, you're putting it towards towards towards one box or the other. And I think that that's probably going to be one of the more interesting exercises as as a team to come together and lands land that. And then as I say, it's still the process. We have not we have not finished that ourselves. Right. Thanks. Yes. And I think it's my experience. It's really important that businesses make that sense themselves of where they think they are and have that conversation to be able to inform that conversation of what's important to us, where are we and so on and might. And I think there's always a risk that organisations score themselves in a factoring way. I think partly because businesses are very positive, you know, go get some sort of cultures often and often they don't know what they don't know. And I think that again, that's where the framework was in part of what we're trying to achieve is here's the evidence you be looking for. So go find the evidence in your business and then you self reference initially, where do you think that places you? That's right. And I guess it's worth showing that one of the ways in which businesses can of course do that is almost like a bit of a spider diagram or radar where they can say have the different 12 areas coming out like forks and then rate themselves. Where are they from short term self interest or purpose driven? Where are they? So you get a real kind of spider diagram which gives a very clear visual sense of where they are and the help to inform those conversations is a shared frame of reference between colleagues and different, you know, different functions, departments and roles. So thanks Phil, it'd be great to hear a bit more about your experience of working with it. So what's fascinating about using this framework is, you know, and as it was designed through CISL is this should have something in it for all different types of organisations with different cultures and strategies. And as I mentioned at the beginning, Crowders kind of coming from a slightly different angle, probably the other end of the spectrum actually to an organisation like Densu, which is right, let's get on with it. And so credit the support of the senior leadership team on the board. And we were very interested in not just the progress against our public targets, the thematics. And you know, so far the milestones, the short term milestones we've been reasonably successful at. But the question was really, you know, are we confident about our ability to progress forward and hit some of the really big challenging stuff 2030 and beyond. And so this came at a really good time to have that moment of reflection. And our approach has been very much to try and take it to test the temperature of where we think in terms of being as a match fit to get us to 2030 and beyond, but also then have that discussion with the senior leadership team that will get wider on. Okay, so which elements here do we think we need to then move on and do more to give us the best chance of being successful against the targets and most importantly meeting stakeholder expectations and helping them on that journey as well. So there's a really interesting one I wanted to pick up with Steve, actually, which Steve you were talking about that that moment of self reflection and looking for evidence. We've gone through this. So we took an earlier draft effectively into the if you like the high level approach. One of the biggest challenges we found when we for a lot of this was through qualitative interviewing and then gathering the evidence through that was to ensure that we were being honest with ourselves about evidence based positions versus aspirational based positions because it's very easy, particularly when you're engaging through a senior team to talk about where you hope to be or hope you are or want to be rather than actually where are you. And I that you know, it's something I'm sure as dentists who are working through this, it'd be interesting to reflect on that and just say, okay, how do we make sure it's evidence based? And that's been a challenge for us. But it's been that was really useful. No, it's that I certainly imagine and there's, I would say that there's cultural differences as well from my experience. I've worked with Japanese companies in the past. And the I think that the aspirations are are great. But as you say, it's the the push for evidence, I think is a lot stronger, perhaps that that on the European side, rather than just a confidence in performance and be putting that on the employees and and and engaging for the the demand for proof is certainly much, much stronger over here on the European side. Yeah, yeah, no, that has been really interesting for us. And our outcome when you talked about spider diagrams, we ended up with a heat map. Just another way of demonstrating the data, but it was a heat map where it was then we could then have a healthy discussion around the senior leadership team in one room to say, does that feel like where we are? Does everyone agree? You know, where do we want to be? And I think one of the really interesting learnings from that was actually when you got to it, there's quite a lot of consensus when people really stopped to think and reflect as you say, Steve and say, actually, you know, we're there. It is absolutely clear we're on a journey at different stages for different parts of the organization. I think what gets really interesting, though, then is the discussion, Ben, you mentioned earlier about, well, where do we want to be? And and when? And, you know, it's very easy to go, we want to be furthest right on everything. All 12 must be, you know, pioneering and so on. And actually, you've got to stop and think and hopefully people listening into this will recognize this, that you are in an ecosystem where you are, you know, totally influenced by where your very stakeholders are and where their expectations are. And I think one of the opportunities taking forwards on this is to, you know, to engage externally and have those discussions both about where say our customers are on the same journey, because there's a massive misaligned one with customers. You can't be too far behind or too far ahead of the people who are going to actually help you derive that impact. And so that's that's an interesting thing for the future. But certainly it's creating a very lively discussion. And it's meant that as we're reviewing our sustainability strategy overall, we're building into that, not just where do we want to get to on the themes, you know, net zero actually how do we get there and what are the projects of programs, but also have we got the enablers right. So we're bringing that into the same discussion. And that's been really useful for us. That's really helpful, Bill. And I think the other thing, hopefully the framework falls out, as you say, is that businesses are essentially part of a web and network, aren't they? As you say, dependent on a whole series of actors, as well as on society and nature, at least be seen as such needs to help think about what's this and it's that leadership piece around proactively playing into that network, isn't it? Not passively sitting back and going, Oh, we'll move when one of our key stakeholders or our stakeholders align, but actually proactively having that discussion and engaging with and as part of that as part of that piece of leadership. And I think the other things I want to maybe just just draw around, I guess, from some of the learning, say, well, I know when we were putting the framework together, it's probably worth sharing with people that one of the balances we're trying to strike was between on the one hand, making it comprehensive enough, so there's enough descriptions of what evidence you'd be looking for. So it's both people know what they're looking for and it's discriminating between, well, is it that or is it that? So it needs some level of detail, but also people are busy. Is it easily digestible? Let's make sure it's not overwhelming as well. So how do we get that balance right? And so it's one of the things we've been trying to strike that balance. And we really appreciate feedback from people who are looking at it would would would be great to get that. That was one. I think the other is the sort of generic and specific. So we want this to be relevant to all businesses. In fact, we also feel that actually it's relevant potentially to all organizations in different sectors is one of the things we want to test, but we've focused on private sector. So how is it both generics that could apply to such different businesses as your own, but also in a way which translates into the language of the business users. And of course, some people might, for example, use profits or value creation or whatever the language might be. Some might land, some might not, and some might need therefore a bit of translation, you know, so and therefore, I think that's one of the reasons why we want to be clear about what's the principles behind the framework in the report. So the people sort of leading that process, whether that's maybe a C-suite member or a CSO or a strategy lead or whoever it might be, can use that adaptation to the business and say, okay, here's how it's in the framework, but in our organization, this is the language we'd use for it to bridge the gap into their their context. I think is that, is that something you both sort of recognize? How do you sort of, you know, balance that? Yeah, absolutely. I think your point about, you know, trying to make sure we've been trying to make sure this is applicable to, as you say, many organizations at least many different types of businesses. The challenge then is that language, because you're ending up with some naturally some quite generic language within this. And you do need a bit of a dictionary to translate between what that generic language is versus what you say in your organization. That's no different from any other external input, but that that's quite an important piece to get right and maybe sort of a little bit of time preparing say, actually, how do we use the right words for the organization translating from this maybe more generic framework? I think that's really important. The other piece I was reflecting on, Ben, was you talk about using this at the organization level, I think there's some, there's potentially some future opportunities as well to think across sectors and look at some of the key elements of where a sector maybe lacks, you know, always further to the left in this. And as a sector, you know, can we help them support a wider ecosystem to move forward as well? Because part of this is, you know, one of our stakeholders, if you like, is our is our is our sector and ensuring that, you know, we're moving making more change and moving forwards, you know, beyond just our own boundaries. So that's an interesting, just so just to come back to one other point that I can't overemphasize the importance of kind of having a sense of culturally how an organization would approach this and the different culture. Steve, you described in Densu to to Cruder, it works for both, but it's going to work really differently. And just a bit of reflection, actually, what sort of culture are we? Are we a pragmatic kind of do get on and learn as we go? Or are we an organization that likes to plan, analyze, reflect and before implementation? That will be massively helpful in thinking about how you then would use this framework. Good point. I think it's there for people like yourselves who are leading on using it. You say using your judgment, say how do you want to use it? To what purpose? How do we adapt it to our culture and our language and so on? I think that's the other thing, isn't it is around how do you balance the breadth and depth of engagement in the business? Because of course, the deeper and broader you go in engaging colleagues that might be, for example, you engage with your finance director to find out how we or investor relations, how invest, you know, and so on, get their view because they're then engaged in the conversation, they're then bringing their insights and you're bringing there of their consensus on where do we think we are? Because the broader and deeper you go, the more time consuming it is and that needs managing. So that balance between breadth and depth, I think is part of that conversation feels like an important element. And I think the other thing is what it where the roles it can play. And we capture this a bit in the blog, but I think we've talked a bit about can help with the diagnosis. Where are we today? We've also talked about food, as you mentioned, how am I that informed where we want to get to? Because it might say, well, actually, OK, we've got us perhaps a strategy. Is it good enough? Actually, you know, do we need to go back to the drawing board on that? Or actually, we think it is it's more about what's the enablers to deliver that? And where are we trying to get to? Which can then in turn you can create almost like a bit of a gap analysis. You must have your two spider diagrams. Where are we? Where do we want to get to create the gap analysis? And then that can then maybe inform a business transformation program where you're then saying, OK, well, which, you know, which enables we're going to focus on? And if we're at say short term profit maximization, what does the next stage look like? Could maybe give indicators of what moving forward might look like, but that still all requires you say judgment to say, well, what leaders do we pull? Why? Given our culture and so on. See, I wonder if there are any further reflections, anything you want to kind of add in terms of, yeah, how, you know, maybe watch out for people listening on their own considerations when when applying this in a business. Anything you want to say? I think what what you were was saying about the flexibility and having it apply for all organizations, I think when at first glance, it it seems I was I was surprised at the the simplicity of of the structure, but it allows for that flexibility. And I I imagine that for our our organization, we're going to need to tailor for different audiences so we can use this probably at the start for that real exhaustive gap analysis. And then we'll have to tailor that. And I think it'll be as as you look into listing up the proof points, there'll be more salience or so it'll allow for a prioritization and then tailor that to an executive level audience, tell that to the more practitioner level audience that for for our colleagues in Japan. So I listening to this conversation, it made me imagine thinking we're still in the early stages, but we're probably going to have a lot of different versions or or possibilities through that. And what we what we submit and say this is the the the final results, I don't quite know what level will strike. But I I see it as it is I do like that there is flexibility in that sense rather than just this exhaustive questionnaire that doesn't really fit or where you're answering a lot of questions that don't necessarily resonate with your your industry or your type of type of business. This allows for teams to put together that story and the proof points themselves and then find the best way to engage with those different stakeholders internally. That's a good point. And I guess a bit like Google Maps, you can zoom in and out depending on the audience kind of set the exact team. It might be here's the spider diagram and then it might be to say you're working for the finance team. You might drill down more into what is our evidence. Here's what could look like for them. And so it allows you to zoom in and out super and guys, I guess just any just before we kind of close any final thoughts in terms of if we think beyond how the because also I guess we're we're working together. We're also validating your doing that kind of self assessment. And then we're we're working with you to kind of also challenge that. And that's another role that organizations could do that with their partners and get that kind of external validation to sort of if you like just provide that that sort of screw to me. But in terms of how it might be used, you know, more externally, any other sort of final thoughts for you mentioned for example, potentially with customers, it could inform that conversation or something. Any other sort of just final final thoughts on how else the business transformation framework might be used in terms of because we've obviously got a wider, you know, kind of sectoral economy to shift here. Well, so I mentioned earlier that idea of the sectoral economy and you know, we're going to make real impact if we're we're in this together in different value chains and working in pretty competitive spaces without peers and so on. And in a way, the fact is that generic language gives a common language and so you can have like the the United Nations SDGs gave a common language to sustainability themes and where we've got to get to if this can help with a common language where you can have some conversations through a trade association through a consortia about the areas that each party is trying to work on and we're okay and I get that and then you can use a much easier way to then share best practice rather than, you know, the moment if I two years ago had a conversation with Steve and Steve talked about this this language, forget Japanese English for a moment just the language of business transformation and I'd be talking about something totally different. We probably wouldn't even recognize it as commonality and so in that way, I think this could be really useful to to build a basis for the common discussions. Thanks, I think one of the interesting developments I also think even just in the last few weeks since UN General Assembly in Climate Week is often there's been this gap between we know globally we're increasingly clear what we need to achieve on carbon, on nature and so on, but then often it then drops straight to the organizational level, then organizations are left with their complex value networks say, well, what's this mean for us? And as you say, different stakeholders will have different views because it's complex, right? Whereas I think the interesting developments we've seen for example, nature positive by consortium with people like business for nature and world economic forum, we're saying, okay, here is what individual sectors need to do to create a nature positive future starts to give much clearer common language as well within sectors and say between investors and other stakeholders say, okay, now we're getting a clearer sense of what we need to achieve as a sector. And this could maybe play a role in terms of what levers do we need to pull, what's our role and contribution as a business, potentially as part of consortium as well. And that's I think a really interesting development that can maybe provide that gap between the global challenge and the individual organizational challenge. Steve, I need to learn reflections from your side. No, I completely agree with what Phil said in terms of that common language. I think it's it's absolutely essential for getting everyone aligned both internally. And this is a self diagnostic tool, but it also has huge potential for when you have that narrative and you and you come together as an organization across functions and have a common language, then you can start engaging externally a lot more effectively and have those conversations within the industry and with customers in a way that will resonate a lot more. So that that's that's the next step down the line, but I see huge potential on on on coming up with that common narrative. Thanks, Steve. Well, thank you both very much indeed for your time this morning, sharing your experiences within your businesses. We were hoping to broadcast this on LinkedIn, but unfortunately, the tech failed on us, but we'd love to keep the conversation going. So for those of you that are engaging with this, we'd love to hear your thoughts on what you think of the frameworks that say we're very much testing and learning. So I'd love your feedback how you might be using it in your organization. So please do share that with us through the LinkedIn host. And also, there's a huge amount of works gone into this and it's been a real team effort from the business transformation group members we've talked about. But also people like James McPherson, Victoria Hurth, Bianca Drotliff, Gin and Secret and Katie Park is about a whole team, you know, behind this. And so I just also want to say a big thank you to all of them for all that hard work that's gone into this. So please do engage with us as this is a living, breathing document that we want to use to sort of share as part of this as a community. Think about how do we transform the role of business? So on that note, I'll say thank you very much indeed and looking forward to continuing the debate both both online. Likewise, thanks for a great discussion. Thanks, Steve. Bye for now. See you soon. Bye. Bye.