 President Mohamed Buhari promises free fair and credible general elections in 2023 and promises to transfer power to Nigerians peacefully. And the United Kingdom's government refuses to reverse the travel ban over the Nigerian government's threat. Or this is plus politics. I am Mary Anacor. President Mohamed Buhari has assured Nigerians and the international community of free and fair general elections come 2023. He has also promised a peaceful transfer of power. He also assured that necessary mechanisms will be strengthened to ensure that Nigeria witnesses another peaceful transfer of power. He however stated that the country's democratic gains of the past decades are under threats of unconstitutional takeover of power. He added that Nigeria continues to face security challenges that pose a threat to democracy and cause un-global partners to support our efforts, that's Nigeria's efforts, in tackling incernancy and terrorism. While joining us to discuss this is Paul James. He is the program manager elections, Yaga Africa. We're also being joined by Opin Chiku. He's a legal practitioner and Kule Lawo, who is the executive director, Electoral College of Nigeria. Welcome, gentlemen, for joining us. Thank you. Paul, I'm going to start with you because of course Yaga is not just about monitoring elections, but you also do the job of making sure that people are educated daily as to what they need to know in terms of making sure that we have free and credible elections and our rights as voters. So I'll start with this question. Besides from June 12th that every Nigerian points to us, you know, the most credible elections that we've had since Nigeria became a republic in itself or since we embraced the act of democracy or the system of government called a democracy. Has Nigeria after June 12 been able to point to a free, fair and credible election other than June 12? Sure. I think there are some other elections that have passed the credibility of pressure, are being based on the lessons that Nigeria will want to do elections with. May I always want to see elections from a holistic point of view, looking at elections from pre-prison, the one is the idea around inclusivity in elections, idea around transparency in elections and also idea around accountability. Often times we limit the election to just the election day and so people pass that judgment call or other election is free, fair, transparent or credible without looking at other issues or elements around the elections. We have had elections in recent past where by human judgment a lot of people have said here it has made the integrity threshold or credibility threshold. A case in point is the Edo election and the Edo and Odo election that happened in the year 2020. These are also because before the election there were a lot of apprehension based on what we all saw in the build-up to the election and this also election that happened within the context of the pandemic, something that had never happened in Nigeria. So a lot of things have been put in place to make the election happen for instance I know how to come up with a guideline to regulate how to conduct election at least a pandemic and so we went into the election election and we saw also how I let introduce technology and to some extent that technology also helped to raise the bar in the conduct of election, helped to also bring some sanity to the result correlation process. So for me I think is how we want to build those elections. We, during the election, got that level of acceptance from Nigeria of course because we know that was also an election that happens and means a lot of other issues and that is also when we are trying to transition from a military or a dictatorship to a civilian government. So I think we also have to look at them on the case-by-case basis, we want to build the elections but then to go back also in the last 20 years since we have had democracy, how has the election fair, how has the conduct of elections fair for instance? One issue that we have to grapple with is the issue of election logistics with which we saw also play out in the last and under election in November and so once we have made a lot of progress especially in the election administration, there are still a bit of challenges here and there and that is after every election we begin to look at what are those aspects of the election that you want to see reform, what are those actions, what are the aspects of the election that you want to see us do better as we engage in a space of election and that is what that huge clamor for electoral and amendment which of course as we know is before the president for his assent. We got only barely nine days or six days until December 19 which will give us like a month since it was transmitted to the president by National Assembly for his assent. Whether or not that will happen we don't know. I heard the opening statement by the president. I mean the fundamental question to us is who was the audience, who was he speaking to? Was he speaking to a foreign audience? The president was in America, he was attending a democracy forum I think he was invited by the secretary of state for that event so yes it was not just only speaking to the world but he was speaking to us Nigerians because I mean we're the ones who are going to be participating in the elections aren't we? Sure, but then for how long are we going to continue in this manner that the president speaks more to people outside of the country that he speaks to outside Nigeria. This is where we need to do the confidence building ahead of 2023. How many months do we have from 1922? Barely 12, 13 months and then some of the elements that you want to see put in place before the election are not there. For instance, is the election amendment fully constituted? We have some positions in areas that need to be filled especially the provisions of national commissioners. We've got some people that are ten or five, we've got some people that are I mean the time of office at the last and no longer they were not going to talking about that. We'll come back to the INEC issue. Let me let me bounce to Barista Obina. Barista Obina he says that we have that we have made progress in over 20 years and as at today he thinks that we can do better but judging from June 12 let's just use that as a yardstick. We've had other elections or the forms of elections before we decided that we're going to adopt a democratic system of government. So many pundits have referred to the fact that Nigeria's elections have over the years been very dodgy. Some of us some of them say that we have a history of sorts when it comes to elections. Our elections are never really straightforward and they've said that many things have remained the same even though Paul is saying that things have changed. I'm trying to understand do you agree, are you of the school of thought that we have had a history of dodgy elections or have things been better over time? Okay first thank you for having me. I want to I want to whether one would say they will use the word disagree they we have not had any election in Nigeria that one can keep them so. Even from the June 12 election that people all of a sudden Nigerians forgot what transpired during the June 12 election and everybody is now using June 12 as a springboard or to say that June 12. Was June 12 really an election? The election conducted the way it should. The answer is no. You don't just wake up from the blues and you conduct a lecture. There must be legal framework. The legal framework will tell you whether or not that election will be fair and fair. All that we have done from 1992 and even in the past have been a hushed or a quarried kind of arrangement where one president comes in or one head of state comes in and the press will now interview him. Are you going to handle that? That's not how it should be. How should it be? How do you think it should be? It's impossible. Hello what did you say? How do you think it should what processes do you think should be taken for it to actually be referred to as a proper electoral process? That's what I'm saying. That the legal framework must be in a way, must be crafted in a way that makes it even impossible for even a president or a head of state to say that he does not want to live office. Let's take for instance what happened in the US in the 2020 election. You saw how the legal framework in America stood the test of time. Even though as of today both state shows that about several millions more than 70 million Americans are still disputing the election but the legal framework had sway. What we have in Nigeria today we are still discussing whether election will be transmitted or whether it will have a central system where election will be transmitted. All what we still have is a haphazard thing. We have not really done, I can tell you, maybe somebody will say I am maybe predicting gloom and doom and all that. We have not, we are not really to have elections. What we've been having is a political party comes in and the political party has manoeuvred the other political parties and the God people. But that's where we are as a country. So how do you expect this change to happen? You're talking about the judicial or the legal framework. This is, these elections are conducted as it is in the electoral act. I'll never forget that that electoral act which is now a bill is sitting on Mr. President's table. We cannot change the framework or we cannot go against the framework that we have as a law. So how do we change that? It's in front of our lawmakers. You and I cannot necessarily decide what has to be in that paper. We were not informed to be part of what you know that process on the floor of the National Assembly. Yes we had that thing where the National Assembly members went around different regions and had a sit down and they talked about it but did it really reflect? So again when we talk about the legal framework I'm still trying to pick your brain. How do we have a say in how these things are done even with the electoral act that we have now? Can it change anything or is it just us the people that are the problem and not necessarily the piece of paper? Let me start with the electoral law that we have now. The electoral law that we have now is not any different from what we have had in the past. It will only still, still at the end of the day, still give or pander towards a political party that has the majority. The only way the citizens can be part of it. Well elections are a game of numbers. It is a game of numbers so it the guys with the highest numbers will win. It's the same thing anywhere in the world, isn't it? Yes, I agree but what I'm saying is that it is a game of numbers for these citizens those numbers that are human beings should first of all pride the nation before selfish interests. Okay. Before their own interests. I'm going to come back to you. Let me come to Kulek. You are of the Electoral College and I've been looking at your facial reactions with all of the the responses that are coming. He on the other hand is saying that all that we've had over the years has been a sham. He's talking about the fact that if we don't fix the framework, the legal framework then we cannot really expect magic to happen but we do have a legal framework. We have something especially that which is on Mr. President's table. You were here the last time we had the row over the e-transmission of results so really what is the problem? If he's saying we don't have one Paul is saying well we have had changes we're getting better and we can only get better. What do you stand in all of this? Well I'd like to come from a different perspective. First and foremost every democracy thrives because it is participatory. It's the first layer. Now if you look at nine general elections from 2015 we've had less than 50 percent of the voting that's registered voting population participating in elections. 2019 was so bad that you have 84 million registered voters and you now have 28 million registered voters participating in an election. This is bad. If you want to lift the level of how the electoral acts function we have to be able to demand this from our lawmakers but how can we demand it when the population is massively politically illiterate? Politics is not emotional. You see we take emotional stands on how things are going. For a country with the problems we've had we've made genuine progress as regards our elections. You can look at America I think women started voting in 1960 which is more than America's 200 and something. People that didn't have massive wealth started voting sometime around women to be voting at the same time. So Nigeria's problem one participatory two we need to understand what exactly we are we are demanding from our government and the truth is we can't understand these things if we we can't demand if we don't understand so the electoral act has some flaws. Yes we always complain about the monetary fact of elections but their campaign limits within the electoral act we do not call our politicians to we do not call our politicians and say this will not be tolerated by the people we don't do that and instead we are the ones actually should we be doing that when there are laws already that negate these actions? The things is that laws in a country do not stand up and act if the people do not demand those laws to function. Agreed? Agreed? So if we generally think I just decided today May is deciding to run for office in Lagos and then next thing I say is oh May and that means you are declaring for us this afternoon you are buying us lunch that's a general thought process once somebody's running for office so we created the buffet of corruption which we call politics which is why we don't get anywhere with it. Now trying to get people involved because you're talking about participation here and you talked about you showed the decline in the space of four years and people not being interested anymore now the average person you talk to in terms of getting involved in the elections they say whether I vote or not it doesn't really matter things keep declining whether you push and you show it still doesn't change anything so there's that resigned mindset already and and so how do you even get the person out of that mindset even the even the second class even the guys who you think should know are also part of that particular you know you know what you need to understand in this country and I'm not saying this is what is obtainable but this is how it will work if you want to rig an election you will need someone not to come to an election for you to use this card to do something else if we can get this into our mindset then we might understand how elections are rigged and try to cut it down to the minimum so if I came to the ballot regardless of who i'm voting for it means my card cannot be used to appropriate some kind of misdemeanor but if I sat at home and said you know what this election is not gonna work it's not sensible it's not even credible you have crucified a system you don't even understand and I sit down at home and then you look at it okay card number this this didn't come to the polling station but it's within this world let's make it look like passing voted and then put it here so you are even facilitating the fact that frauds are committed during elections so we keep talking about people not being educated about this day people not being most people do know they know that whether you vote or not you have made a choice one way or the other and then there are people who don't even know the people that you think do not know the people that you think are uneducated are the ones who actually file out in their numbers to vote and I keep asking everybody and I'm asking this question to you Paul I'm asking this question to you by stopping now why is it that those of us who complain the most those of us who think or seem to be the ones who should be knowledgeable about these things are the ones who sit at home and watch the elections play out on tv let me explain something we normally assume being politically illiterate is commensurate to the education we have that is wrong political literacy does not have anything to do with education it has to do with understanding the way the system in politics works so I'll tell you you have more people that are party members at the grassroots I can tell you the average middle class citizen a middle class here does not mean middle class based on economics a middle class based on political middle class which means you've been to a university or a secondary school I can tell you that if we point to the room they don't know they are local government chairman they're not part of the political party and they can't even name up to three political parties out of the 18 that are functional in Nigeria well that's sad I'm going to go back to you Paul there are very many factors that have been named over time as factors that impede and you know do not allow for us to have free fair and credible elections we're talking about money politics like he's mentioned we're talking about um um violence um ballot box snatching it it sounds like something that is is in the stone age but it keeps happening in Nigeria a country that should be in the forefront of I mean yes we no longer are a third world country we are a developing country but this is still happening in the 21st century and several other issues you know people not joining political parties because they say you know politics is dirty just to buy to some of the things that Kulae has said as Yaga Africa as a Nigerian who's been trying to work on the mindsets of people do you think that we've been able to at least scratch the surface of people being politically educated and not waiting for the NOA when it's few weeks to the elections so I think uh Kulae has succinctly captured it all the wills of democracy for me are about inclusion and also participation these two kids uh these two kittens now I was in Zambia for the elections back in August and I met a voter that traveled for 600 kilometers to come and participate in the election they don't have the opportunity like we do in Nigeria for transfer of voting and so he had to travel to come and vote because he understand the power of his vote I also just we have returned from the election that was conducted in the Gambia the election happened on the 4th of December when turned out for the election was 89 percent 89 percent turn out in the election and so for me I keep asking myself what are those lessons to learn from this election each time we keep hearing about the political alternatives that they are not what people want to keep hearing things like the devil and the deep blue sea but then the challenge has been always around the culture of participation participation has been very low I've been very poor radar for digital education is also for that it also starts from the president it starts from the mindset if the options that are there I mean if the options that are available and what people desire it's a democrat common people have the opportunity to also bring up who they think they desire so and again because we have left this engagement this engagement has been reduced to episodic engagement 2023 we will must start in February 2023 it started in 2019 but most often we wait until the eve of the election or the month of the election before we begin to hear about these political preparations there are opportunities that have prevented people for instant voter registration is ongoing how many people are engaging the process this has started since july of this year perhaps in every day I see only about a million and the rest have registered and have collected their the process of collecting their pvc another election happened in last august about a hundred and twenty something persons registered for the election after cleaning up 77,000 new registered voters were added to the to the voters list but this is a state that has over five million people even that in hybrid state so I think it starts from even that mindset change if the options are available like I said I know what people desire democracy presents an opportunity to even come up once they organize and they organize well they type in set of their political parties and come up with that person that is the team oh please don't get me started with the political parties and the numbers I don't even what that's a whole kettle of fish on its own the numbers keep growing but we don't see the participation but let me come see you barris albina there are those who are of the school of thought that these political parties and the elites in those parties are deliberately keeping the electorate in the dark and and again the people themselves this is a school of thought saying that the people themselves also have resigned to some form of fate and and then that's the major problem of participation in the country that's one secondly why do you think that many nigerians are more averse to joining political parties as opposed to just showing up on election day to cast their votes yes um number one i think the your statement so i i think that you are right the problem with the participation of my friends have been hammering on is that you cannot have large standard of the so-called high participation when there is no confidence in the electoral system there is no confidence in fact from the first day the party in power select a candidate everybody knows that whichever way the person will win there's no there's no but 2015 but 2015 was a different was some form of a difference i mean that for the first time the part the party at the center did not necessarily win the presidency we saw that president goodlock johnathan former president goodlock johnathan stepped down and lost the elections yes 2015 2015 happened because there was an attempt there was an attempt to have credible election number one card readers were introduced secondly the chairman of i-nec that was appointed as at that time i can tell you somehow was a political it didn't pander to any political party and again do the justice to waste a report commission's report also came the then president was trying to some somewhat implement that so let me go back to voter turnout you will not have that desired voters turnout when there is no credibility in our electoral process secondly where is the box so if the credibility of the electoral process is where i'm at now because that's what the president is promising nigerians he's saying that he he's promising that there's going to be a peaceful transfer of power to whoever wins at the end of the day he's also saying that he would ensure free fair and credible elections and you're saying that the avid voter cannot cannot say if the the process is credible and that's why we see the level of voter apathy that we're having but is that the fault of i-nec is that the fault of political parties is it the fault of the people or what exactly is the problem yes it's uh i will not let the blame on anybody i will say is that everybody should take should share from the blame one the government should share from the blame who over time has promised the people of free and fair and free fair and credible elections and failed to do so but again let's look at let me just conclude my position on the low part a low turnout of our citizens participation like i said when there's no credibility secondly have we tried to introduce other method or means of voting like take for instance last year or this year big brother nigeria that had about three or four means of voting had more than separate billions of voters these type of voting that we must show them the system every saturday and not force people to go to vote that we have tried for more than 20 years now is it working why can't we have elections elections target where people can work in scrolling as they go to work they're scrolling and cast their vote and live why can't we try other methods i would want to use a particular method you do something and expect to have a different result you cannot have a different result okay another thing again that we must also look at is the way we have monetized politics in nigeria look at the salaries of those people look at them once you are elected for instance as a legislator i can tell you by the time you serve for it you would have gathered enough money to get yourself elected in the next election so boss on the bottom line let's make these offices less attractive financially so that we can have better needed offices less attractive okay we drain the levels okay what can be at the same level with several servers okay when you do that people there will be less confrontation people all right people will reconsider okay because we're almost out of time let me like really have the last word here i think there's something we need to stop doing and that's comparing big brother elections to nigerian elections the winner of big brother is not the commander in chief he's not the commander in chief he's talking about the voting process how the votes are collated i understand but you also cannot compare it and there are reasons why we're a country i'll give you an example an amber elections over five million people in an amber i think only about 200 000 up to 200 000 participated in the election who are you going to hold a credible election is not judged by the number of people that come out our next job is to ensure that whoever's vote that is cast is as is when collated that's credibility participation poor participation is because simply we are not keyed into political parties so i'll give you an example the average nigerian knows what goes on within the democratic party in the u.s knows what goes on within the republican party in the u.s yet we do not understand what goes on in any party primaries including the picture because we don't know that they because they don't have ideologies and we do not know what they stand for do they what's the ideology of the pdp and the apc that the pdp is actually more a capitalist party and then apc is actually more you would see like a overnight for example governor benna idea of cross river stage realizes that he is no longer a capitalist and he wants to join the apc is that what you're saying the truth is that i'm sure i'm sure i'm going to answer this i'm sure his excellency has not read the constitution of his political party and i'm going to be firm about this and that's the problem in nigeria if we had an influx a massive influx into political parties will be more concerned about elections that go on in nigeria if we had a critical mass ensuring that political parties they bring out credible candidates so bottom line the politicians and the elites in the different political parties are politically illiterate and that's why they keep cross-captaining from party to one party to the other i'll tell you the average nigerian is politically illiterate i'll tell you because most of them don't even know their functions even those serving in office to none of their functions in national assembly or elsewhere well on that note i want to say thank you to all our guests thank you very much barcel benna paul james of yaga and of course uh cune lao who is of the electoral college nigeria thank you very much gentlemen for being part of the conversation thank you thank you all right this has to be an ongoing conversation but thank you all for staying with us when we return we'll be discussing the travel ban controversy surrounding nigeria the uk and other countries will be right back stay with us