 Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining us and welcome to today's conversation with Matthew Marsh. I would now like to introduce Matthew to all of you. Matthew Marsh is an experienced practitioner in unlocking stuck businesses for more than 25 years. Most recently, he has led transformation programs for Barclays, Lloyds, Microsoft, the NHS, and Samsung, as well as serving as Innovation Envoy for UK's Design Council. Previously, Matt was studio director for the innovation firm IDEO, where he built one of Europe's most respective creative business consulting teams. We are delighted to welcome you today to share your experience with us. Matt, please go ahead. Well, thank you all for tuning in today. So, I've been asked to speak for about 20 to 25 minutes and then spend about another 20 minutes or so taking questions. And during my presentation, I want to reveal to you that it's actually not so unusual for businesses to get stuck, and that it's not the obvious candidates that get stuck, perhaps the thrusting young startups or the overconfident monopolies. It's actually big names, names that you would recognize, firms that made sectors, the trailblazers, the ones that defined those sectors. These are the ones that find change and transformation the hardest. Also, I want those of you that are feeling stuck to know that all is not lost. There is a way out. You need some restored confidence and a new fresh kind of help. So over the 20 minutes I have, I will share some truths about who gets stuck and how common it is, why firms get stuck, how to recognize if you are getting stuck and ways to reinstate your capability to react and respond. Now, as I go along, please do ask questions in the chat box and my colleagues will pick them up for discussion later. And we're also going to do just a little bit of polling to find out what your experience of getting stuck is like. So let's get started. Turns out, in fact, getting stuck isn't so unusual. Here's some data that I think you will find interesting. Executives were polled across a broad range of industries in 2018 by McKinsey and Company, and this is what they found out. So less than a third of executives report that their digital transformations were successful and delivered improved business performance and wait for it. That's for the digitally savvy industries such as high tech, media, telco and so forth. In all traditional industries such as oil, gas, automotive, infrastructure, manufacturing, etc., the digital transformation success rates fall between 4 and 11%. That means nine out of 10 are failing. Just 26% of executives view that their organizational transformations were successful at improving performance, which is amazing. I hear this being reported widely in the business press. And fourth, another bit of data, famously Clayton Christensen, the Harvard professor and the inventor of the jobs to be done methodology. His research showed that 95% of innovation programs fail. And finally, this one really surprised me. This is from Forbes in 2018. 70% of family owned businesses fail before they are passed on to the second generation. They were not able to recover, reinvent or rejuvenate. They got stuck and regretfully disappeared. So I'm curious, do these these numbers really surprised me? They show consistently shockingly low success numbers. I'm just wondering, did they surprise you? Or maybe not so much? If you can, let me know your thoughts in the chat and we will pick them up later on. So who are these firms who get stuck? Well, even just recently, we've heard about retailers like Arcadia and Devinums, all struggling long before COVID. A 200 year old travel business like Thomas Cook, now a shadow of its former self. The US founded 100 years ago struggling, even though car ownership has dramatically declined and car share clubs have mushrooms. Or perhaps mother care. It folded, even though, as far as I know, we're not having any fewer babies. Or consider Alitalia. Alitalia hadn't made a profit for an incredible 15 years and was reportedly burning through 700,000 euros a day until it went into administration. Or perhaps Albrands, the owners of Victoria's Secret. Even though changing attitudes to sexism, perpetuating unattainable beauty ideals, and the importance of respecting diversity and inclusivity, what everybody to see Victoria's Secret has struggled to pivot, get with the times and regain its relevance. All once market leaders, great heritage and successful businesses, all got stuck and couldn't break through. Here's the thing, you will have heard the pundits on the TV, radio, blogs and elsewhere saying that they should have worked at being great online, should have adopted super responsive delivery, should have rightsized their real estate footprint, should have been present in new media and channels. It was as though the people running those businesses didn't know all that. This is crazy. Of course they knew. What everyone was missing the point about is why couldn't they react and respond. Something else was stopping them move forward and finding their next cycle of prosperity. It was as though they, and like so many like them, almost sleptwalk into stuckness and then regretfully into decline. They walked a line, the line became a ditch, the ditch became a tunnel with no way out. And some way, somewhere along the way of walking this line, eventually their muscle memory had been so reinforced that nothing could be done to react and respond effectively. But things could have been different. If someone could have given them the right advice, made them see what they couldn't see, helped them to react and respond. So here's the thing, as you have heard through the data and the examples, businesses of all types and sizes are getting stuck. In fact, welcome to what one of my clients amusingly referred to as the dirty laundry, the great unsaid of the innovation, transformation and change sector. That great successful heritage business get stuck and they don't break through. Something stops them from taking back control. Perhaps it was the corporate structure. Was it the reporting lines? Could it have been the business modeling, the culture? Maybe. Whichever way these businesses could have taken a different path if they'd got the right help. So it's time to out the truth. Businesses do get stuck and there should be no shame in admitting it. So if you're feeling disappointed with your change transformation performance, you are far from being alone. Actually, you're the norm. Just like nine in 10 firms, you've just been missing the right help. And today, I hope that begins to change. So again, I wonder if you recognize any of this. Let me know your thoughts or perhaps note down some questions for my colleagues to bring up at the end of the session. Now, I'd briefly like to discuss what I describe as the success paradox. Counterintuitively, perhaps the firms that find change, transformation and innovation the hardest are ones that have already achieved notable, notable success. Why? Because there's nothing that defocuses an organization needing to change as easily as the success and growth that went with it. The thing is, it's difficult to kill sacred cows, the very things that made the market leaders and successful in the first place. And the firms I've founded are most susceptible to this paradox. More often than not, are the SMEs, the midsize courts, the third sector charities, government departments and family run and founded firms. Organizations with values of somewhere between 500 million and 5 billion, almost always at least 20 years old, maybe 60, and perhaps even more mature than that. They struggle partly because these sorts of organizations, ones that have tasted success, always have legacy leadership, management, processes and product lines in place. And these established and embedded attributes actually get in the way of finding the root to the next cycle of prosperity. But before we take a look at the symptoms of businesses that are getting stuck, let's find out how you personally have experienced business change, transformation and innovation and do a couple of quick polls. So we're going to go to the polling section now. And what we'd like you to do is select one of these, thinking about your current firm or perhaps you in a previous role, rate your experience of business change, transformation and innovation activity. Always go smoothly, mostly smoothie, a bit bumpy or mostly disappointing. So we'll just leave a moment or so for the results to come through. And then we'll move to the second, have a little discussion and see what happens. Okay. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm glad you're here today. 84% are somewhere being a bit bumpy and most mostly disappointing. That's fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. I'm going to have to jot those figures down. It certainly is consistent with my research. I'm going to go to the other quick poll and see what happens with this one. So this is the second poll. So this one, you know, it's more about what was most memorable for you. And, you know, how it actually felt, you know, was it frustrating, exhausting, exciting, demanding. I mean, it looks like you can only select one of the following. I should have let you select more than one. But let's see what people come up with and how their experience of it is. Don't forget. Okay, let's have a little look seeing and see what comes up. About quarter, quarter, quarter, quarter. Interesting. It's good to know. It's good to see that it being exciting there comes out pretty much in the top next to it. Ballast off with it being frustrating as well. So, okay, thank you so much for doing the poll. That was absolutely great. Let's get back to being stuck. So what are the telltale symptoms of a business that is getting stuck and unable to move forward? Well, truthfully, the symptoms of a business getting stuck are often hard to detect. Often, people in the firm are just too close to it all. They metaphorically can't see the wood for the trees. But when I take the time to take the first steps and do the audit and diagnosis work and talk to the people in these firms from the top to the bottom, more often than not, what I find out is that people knew something wasn't quite right. Oh, I just need to click and then click. Have I got control back casing? Excuse me, folks. There we go. We're there. So what you find out is that people were having quiet coffees. Can I have a quiet quick word? You hear about those surreptitious beers that happened after work. What happened in that meeting? That was crazy. They show you with a grin those crafty secret catch-ups on WhatsApp. We need to sort this out quick. Message me. Mostly people knew something was going on, something needed to be done, but they couldn't quite put their finger on what it was that was stopping them move forward. Consequently, a lot of firms don't realize they are stuck until it's too late. Okay, so here are six telltale symptoms that you can look for to detect if perhaps your business is getting stuck. I hope you'll find them useful. Okay, so this is the first one when competitors are launching things your business hasn't thought of, and it looks like you're falling behind. Now, this one so reminds me of working in the banking sector. The likes of Monzo entering the market is such a great example. The high street banks were incredibly slow to see the competitors popping up. And then once they did, they found it very hard to react even though they had many talented designers and engineers. The overwhelming sense of everyone being frozen in the glare of the proverbial headlights of change was powerful. A second telltale symptom is colleagues competing for the same and usually diminishing budgets for future investment. This one I find is particularly common in technology firms and the competition is frequently between marketing and engineering. I remember working with a connectivity company, their words, smartphones, tablets, etc. to the rest of us. And Marxing was saying, give me something new to sell. And engineering was saying that tell us what people want and we'll build it. They were at loggerheads with each other for years stuck in the middle with you. And then the third one, that agreement on what to prioritize and focus on has stalled. It's a tug of war. This is often a boardroom dilemma. The difficulty is that in the boardroom, especially when people are under intense pressure, that folk have a tendency to start talking over each other and at each other. Constructive critique goes out the window and the business attempts at change and transformation gets stuck in neutral. So number four, this is when there's a general malaise really happening at work. Now surprisingly, this one can be really hard to spot because it's all going on behind closed doors. And it's always one of those things that's been going on for ages, slowly boiling away until it pops to the surface. And in my experience, I found that the smaller and the family firms find this particularly challenging to detect because people have such tight relationships. Another telltale sign of being stuck is when there's tension between delivering short term returns and need for investing. The dilemma here is that these symptoms typically involve two very different arms of the business. Those are the cold face and those are very senior in the organization. For all sorts of reasons, both parties are highly motivated to keep things secret and not to be sharing the bad news. This I found is often be a real issue in the bigger firms that I work with. And finally, the sixth telltale sign is when new rounds of product development just aren't delivering. I hear this all the time from everyone, from everywhere, and especially from senior leaders. I was talking to an FMCG client the other day who was making this exact point. Millions of dollars spent on what turned out to be basically vanity projects. Nothing actually made it to market. But she thought this was a deficiency in her design and innovation teams, not that fundamentally the business wasn't set up to reinvent and rejuvenate its proposition positioning or products. It was locked in. It was stuck in the successes of the past. Now, if you recognize some of these telltale signs, you are probably stuck and need some help. And I'm curious to hear what you all think about this, especially if you work in senior management, or perhaps in other parts of the business that sometimes get neglected when we think about business recovery, reinvention, or rejuvenation. Okay, to finish off my presentation, and before we go to the Q&A session, I'm now going to describe three things that can be done to help a stuck business get unstuck. First, the need to correctly detect the right problem to work on. Remember, change, innovation and transformation are actually pretty nebulous terms. They mean very different things to different people. And when there's a misunderstanding within the organization of what change and transformation mean, confusion sets in. To get unstuck, you need to deal with this ambiguity and bring some clarity and objectivity about what it is that the business is actually trying to achieve. This means taking the time to create a compelling change transformation narrative. It is important for the objectives of the business recovery mission abroad to life. Try making videos, visualizing scenarios, working on language, mapping processes and crafting success measures, making it real before it's real. Who many organizations skip this critical step? To get unstuck after attempts at business change and innovation haven't worked, you must look for the intransigent underlying reasons why and deal with them. Otherwise, you go to work fixing the wrong problem, maybe in the right way, but on the wrong problem. And when a firm works on the wrong problem, it ends up choosing the wrong help and spending money putting the wrong initiatives in place. And having spent all that money, tragically having had a last throw of the financial dice, recovery, reinvention and rejuvenation is all the harder. Second, the need to focus on the tricky people for it. So what you have to ask yourself first is how well have you been bringing your colleagues with you? If the answer is that you haven't really, then you need to go out and you need to start doing some work so that their perspectives, their points of view, their constraints are brought to the surface. You need to clearly demonstrate that you're listening to their concerns and working with them in a way that they can contribute. This is how you address all those awkward conflicts, contradictions, blockages and ambiguity. And this requires someone skilled and empathetic, analytical and rigorous. And because business recovery and reinvention can be emotional and it's almost always demanding. When you're a business that's had a bunch of attempts at change and they're failing, it can become really emotional. Things like ego, stubbornness, passion, defensiveness, all these human emotions can come to the surface. People worry that it's going to affect them personally, maybe a lot of influence, a lot of authority, status or even their job. And this gets in the way of a business getting unstuck. And this is why the human part of the process is so, so important. To get unstuck, start with the people inside the business and understand how they work, how they think, why they may not want to move forward or why they really want to go in a particular direction. Okay. And finally, getting stuck requires the right kind of leadership. Change, innovation or transformation is a team sport. It needs different skills, departments and organizational silos to work together. Too often firms don't put the right interventions in place to allow for effective collaboration to happen. And without effective collaboration, the business will stay stuck. Getting unstuck, achieving breakthrough happens because someone has to campaign for it, argue for it, shine a light on it and fight for it. Someone prepared and equipped to ask tough questions and give honest feedback. Without alienating everybody along the way, you have to make the space for it to happen. You have to create the conditions and the permissions for it to take place. In short, getting unstuck needs fearless, active and progressive leadership. What one can't do is just try to paper over the cracks. All that does is creates deep frustration, distraction and exhaustion and sense of being left out and feeling bad. Getting unstuck for real positive change to happen depends on revealing where the stuckness in the different parts of the business are and then deploying a positive plan of remedial action and change, the breakthrough plan. Then you will become unstuck. You will have regained your capability to react and respond and set your firm up to embrace business change, transformation or innovation, cutting across technology, organization and culture. Okay, so I'm pretty much on time. So over the last 20 minutes or so, we've covered some truths about who gets stuck, why firms get stuck, how to recognize it and ways to reinstate the capability to react and respond. Now it's time for your questions and how you might be able to take away some of today's presentation and use it in your business. Here are a few suggestions of some prompts that I get asked all the time. And now what I'd like to do is to hand over to Casey to choreograph the question and answer part of this session. Great. Thank you, Matt. So let's see, as Matt mentioned, we're going to begin answering questions. You can still submit them through the questions pane. We'll be keeping an eye on that. So if you haven't had a chance, please go ahead and do so. Let's see our first question is, can you define digital transformation in both sentence. In one sentence. Probably not in one sentence, but I think all business change at the moment has a part of using technology to improve business performance, which is a sentence. Does that help at all? I think that was a good answer. Yeah, definitely come back whoever submitted that question and let us know. Automation and a streamlining customer experience journeys at the moment, as well as the back end systems. Great. Let's see next we've got great insights Matt considering the amazing amount of initiatives and businesses, how to prioritize the possible solutions. Yeah, so it says considering amazing amounts of initiatives and businesses. How do you prioritize the possible solutions. Right. Okay. I think this is, it gets exactly to the heart of the matter, which is when I was talking about defining what is the right problem that you're going after. It's all about how you set off on this journey and doing that mapping. Now I think one of the challenges that some organizations have is that they're trying to do all of this on a spreadsheet or a PowerPoint chart. I think the right way to actually go about that is that you actually start visualizing stuff and putting things up on the walls and allowing for all the different voices to be heard, sometimes asynchronously. So not not doing it at one one time and allowing for some of that reflection. One of the techniques that we often use is simple dot voting, giving people five green dots for the things that are most important. You know, five red dots for the ones that they think of, you know, not right. And then if you get enough people, what you begin to see is like where those dots are beginning to congregate around. And then you can stand back and look at that and have a proper grown up discussion about why all the red ones seem to be in this area and why the green ones are there. And this is all about leveling that that conversation and making the right space for people to have contributions without feeling like they're being seen to be negative, because everyone's got the five greens and everyone's got the five, five reds. So I found that that works really, really well. And you might want to try try that yourself. Great. Let's see. Got quite a few questions. Next one is, where do you suggest organization design feature in your strategy, a tree type organization that is built for stability, or a rhizome type laterally growing organism for resilience. Thank you. That's an interesting question. I mean, I think organizational design is fundamental to do this. But I think in some ways, certainly the top down tree version of it. I think it doesn't work so well. I think sometimes it can just reinforce what's already there. So I'm keen of when you get more of a matrix view of it going down and across. And then we can actually see and map where the different parts of the business may be getting stuck and what which bits are actually quite liberated. It's also important to note that it's not as though businesses who are have a lack of ideas about what to do. It's more typical that they have too many, but they are contradictory or conflicting in some way. And I think, you know, the organizational design has a really important part to play in that in terms of celebrating the different ideas and creating the room for those ideas to come to the surface and be discussed and critique effectively as well. Perfect. Let's see. Next question. How do you facilitate and ensure a common deep understanding of a problematic situation. Again, some tough ones. Yeah, it depends what the problem is. Yes, but it's a really, really good question. I think, I think, again, actually, could you just read the question out exactly again for me. Of course. Yeah, how do you facilitate and ensure a common deep understanding of a problematic situation. Right. Okay. The first thing is to be working getting people in the room from within the business in a cross disciplinary cross skill cross departmental place that I'm sure you're already doing and creating the room for that. What makes the real difference is when you start bringing in external perspective as well. And so sometimes, you know, one might invite in some journalist or someone who from a different firm who's experienced it. Coming in and getting the customer perspective is often really, really good as well, allowing people to make digital diaries and to share those things. It's a bit what another one of them is creating anonymous back channels where people can actually tell truth of what's going on a bit like in the airline industry when people are worried about something not being designed quite correctly. But in the end, what we need to do first of all is again, I think I said earlier is flattening that hierarchy and making sure that we've got not only the different voices inside the firm, but we're calibrating that with voices from outside the firm. And sometimes one of the things that can be so so effective when you're doing that is actually sending people within the firm out on actual learning journeys of their own. So for example, I remember working in one of the financial institutions, not the ones that were mentioned at the beginning of this talk about you're asking them to go and open a bank account. And then they suddenly discovered how difficult it really was or try and make this foreign exchange transfer and finding out what really happened. Try ringing up the customer call center and getting an answer to those sorts of things are absolute gold dust, because again what it stops us doing is thinking about us and just our day to day jobs. But what is the actual real experience of people working in the business and those people interacting with the business and seeing it from their point of view. Great. Let's see. Next question. That mentioned ambiguity. I believe the word transformation is far overused and the words reform or transition or reorganization are often more accurate. Could it be that we overhype our aspirations. In a word. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean the difficulty is, all of these words actually mean are all quite ambiguous to be honest. You know, for some people, it means, you know, kind of a little bit of evolution or iteration. It means something completely revolutionary. For other people, the truth is, is that they'll just be giving all this lip service and just wishing that things would go back to how things were in the past. And in some ways, I think this is the place where we have to move away from relying on this language, which nobody wants to say what do you mean sit around the board and what do you mean by the word transformation or innovation. Right, we're all meant to know. But actually, it can mean so many different things. And I think this is why, you know, I was saying a few moments ago, why it's so important to actually make things real before they're real. So you could stick something up on the wall that do you mean this or this or this do you know do we have the same conceptual model going on in our heads about what the endpoints the destination of this exercise is and what the stations along the way are. And this is something that I always try to do with my clients right at the beginning is doing that early legwork of bringing things to life. And pointing at things. And then we all know that was looking at the same different options. You know this is the family size one this is the deluxe one this is the gold plated one. You know, this is a little bit of changes a bit you know, so I think the faster you can move away from the like be the leader, lead. And this is what I'm talking about with the active and progressive leadership is do the work, so that people can do the attributes and move away from the language and try things out. Sometimes that's a simple, you know, can be, you know, doing competitive analysis and benchmarking and saying, you know, do we want to be exactly like Monzo, or do we want to be like this organization. No, no, we don't do that. Okay, now, now we're beginning to drill down into kind of really what we mean. And then we can start mapping out okay what are the attributes, what are the elements that we actually are trying to focus on. And we now know that we're getting into language that is actually shared and meaningful for all people involved across the organization. Yeah. Great. This next question might go along with that it says, what are the first five things to do to move ahead in this testing times if we plan to modernize or change modernize slash change business model. In terms of the first five things. I mean, I think the ones that I shared really figure out what the problem is. Do the early work with people and find out what's you know where the blockers are where the advocates are where the concerns are do do do all of that work. And figure out who is going to be given the leadership role and do you have that internally, it's incredibly difficult to take care of business, as Elvis said, and reinvent it, you know, at the same time, that's a really difficult tension to get right. And you, you know, you also need to start thinking about creating those permissions and conditions where, honestly, the truth serum that's going to be injected into this serum into the into this firm, you know, can be exposed and brought to the surface and thinking about how you do that. There's a way that doesn't alienate alienate people as well. And then I think the last thing, you know, is actually take a look at your skill sets internally and think about it are there some ways that we can up skill people and working slightly different ways that would benefit underpinning all of those previous four issues that I've just raised. And the default mechanism is to charge ahead, quick, you know, to solve it quickly just do something, you know. And I think that's, that's when people really do get into a pickle is they, they, you know, they leap before they look and they listen. You know, it's fine if you're, you know, you got very, very deep pockets and you can, you know, have a number of rounds at doing this, but most firms can't, you know, they can't suffer the trauma to the organizational culture or their reputation, or even their bank balance. It's a one shot deal. So, you know, pause, reflect, do the legwork, socialize it, bring people along. And it would be, would be my advice, you know, bear in mind if you set off from Portsmouth, you know, to New York and you're three degrees out, you end up in Rio de Janeiro or going around the Isle of Wides. You know, when you, where you set off will be the biggest driver about whether you will get to the correct destination at the end. So think hard about that is my advice. Great advice. Let's see. Next we have, how do you help other departments see the need for change if they do not recognize that there is a problem. Yes. This does happen, but I think it's a result of not having consulted with them early enough. However, let's say that some part of the organization can't see it. So, again, I'll go back to, you know, the banking example, there was nothing that focused the mind quicker than asking people to try out one of these, you know, new FinTech services and compare, you know, compare that to their experience. So this is what we call the learning journeys and asking people to go out and discover the things for themselves and what the lay of the land is. One of the things, especially in this service economy is that from a customer's viewpoint, they, their experience of using a delivery where they can track their pizza coming down the road and it's going to be here in two minutes. That sets their expectations of what it's going to be like to work with any other kind of organization. Then thinking, why not if they can do it? Why can't you do it? So one of the things is, it is forcing or encouraging people to look beyond their day to day work. And if you do a little bit of work of thinking quite hard about what are the exemplars that will help this person see the need for change. And then, you know, create, you know, maybe making a little kind of to do list or set them a set of activities to do of experiencing those services. Best of all, is if you, if you buddy up with that person, so they can ask you questions, but getting out of the firm and seeing how the rest of the world is moving, I find is probably the most persuasive way to move thinking forward because it doesn't feel like you're then criticizing what's going on inside this business. And immediately turning it personal. Yeah, so absolutely look outside and make it make it real and bring those experiences to life and review them and capture them and then bring those back to the other team members. It's incredibly effective. Great. Let's see how to get out of the problem when the manager confuses strategy with operational excellence. Wow. I'm just, I'm just thinking about what that means confusing strategy with. Yeah. They made a comment right after that might be related says most of the business transformations are just about imitating benchmark competition and not about strategic positioning that brings more sustainability. Okay, this one, there is a trick to doing this one and the under the back of the manner is is that change in transformation usually comprise of a number of elements. Some of them are about catching up with the competition. There's no point reinventing the wheel. If you already know what it's going to going to be about. So there's a chunk of things that are going to be in that area. Then there's going to be another chunk of things around the change of transform, which is about explaining it to other people within the business or to your customers partners suppliers and so forth. There's also going to be some bit, which is about inventing some bits. Some part of the widget some part of the technology some part of the customer experience and then the last the last one is when you're in genuine innovation space. You know, and you know it's about the next new thing that we can't think about now too many organizations throw all of those four things into a single bucket. So you start applying innovation process to catch up and you don't like catch up to it and the whole thing begins to fall apart. So one of the first tricks is about mapping what the means to get to the goal is and understanding whether the goal can be articulated you can imagine a two by two matrix. And those four items sit within within within that that matrix. And so that's where we try to join up operations and strategy so that the two parts of it are not bashing heads. And again, I know this might begin to sound a bit like a stuck record, literally getting the flip chart out and drawing this out and if you want to know the technique, ping me a message and I'll send you a slide and an explainer of how to use it. But literally, you know, 20 minutes of doing some simple mapping in that way. You know, this is about operation keeping going. This is in these different explain quadrants and then to innovate is a really, really great first step to help unlock those tensions. Great. Well, I think that is all the time we have for questions. Did you want to include any closing remarks met. Um, I just just thank you for attending today. I'm I hope you found a little piece of this useful. Do reach out and give me a phone call or send me a mail. If you, if you, you know, you want to have a bit more of an in depth conversation about what's going on in your firm. There is a way out and, you know, I look forward to working with you and have a nice day. Awesome. Thank you so much, Matt. And thank you everyone. We hope you enjoyed this conversation today. So on behalf of Matt and Brightline, we thank you for joining us and hope to see you again soon. Thank you.