 And I'll put a link just in case you don't have it, but I think you should all have the agenda. If you want to speak, please raise your hand and we'll let you speak. For questions, you can either use Slido and I'm putting it in a chat. Slido could use HubWeek and you'll have to select the name of our session, use practical skills. If you want to ask a question or you can just use this chat, if that's easier. Anything else I need to say? Yeah, I guess if you have some questions or issues, please ping Rob who is a host or me if something doesn't work and over to you, Natalia. Okay, thank you very much for joining this session. I would like to start by introducing a saying a few words about the working group on skills and training. So next slide if you can, Rob. The session, today's session is about for me giving an introduction. Then we will be discussing, we will be touching upon three topics. So the EOS skillset. So what are the skills with working for EOSC? Competence centers and how can we organize ourselves and the digital skills in the national strategies, how to position EOSC in the broader agenda because we know already that there's a lot going on on policy and strategy and digital skills. And then we can have an open discussion throughout, Irina, we guide us through this discussion. Next slide. Okay, so this working group, we are a late starter. We started one year after the rest of the groups in January, 2020. We have currently 38 members from 24 countries. We have a good representation from universities, data centers, libraries, ministries, policymakers, infrastructure and service providers, but also from people from education and learning. What we found very early on, and this was a nice surprise that we have members with a good experience in both data related issues, but also ICT issues. So we're trying to cover two aspects of EOSC data and services. Next slide. What is our objective? The objective of this training and skills is to see how we can provide the framework. And I know that this is a general term for a sustainable training infrastructure for EOSC. So in this working group, we are trying to find also our paths. And but we have from early on divided our work on two things, on skills and competencies and training capability. So what is needed and how we can go about it. Next slide. On one aspect is we are going to cover your organizational culture change and service development. And what are the key components for the skills development? And what on the other aspect on the other front, we're going over capabilities for trainers, research data stewards and service providers. So what are the key components for this training infrastructure? And in the middle, as you will see in this slide, we're talking about all the actors involved in this process. We're talking about institutions. We're talking about research support staff, research policy makers and EOSC providers. Next slide. And in order to, okay, our timeline is, as we started in January, 2020, we will deliver the following in fall and end of our remit. So in the fall, we want to deliver a minimal skillset for EOSC. And this more or less in common is this minimum viable product because we want a stature approach. We're talking about specific things like training catalogs in the EOSC and specifications. And then what we want, as I said before, is to have different options for organizational models for competent centers and how they can be coordinated. So as an input, especially to the EOSC association and the street documents. And also in the last quarter, what we want to do is gather all this information and say, okay, how does this fit as a minimal viable product or a value added product, whatever term we want to use for training in the systemability of EOSC. And in parallel, one of the, we will talk about it today, is about recommendations for policy makers in the high level agenda at the national level. And especially, I think this would be very much fitting in the new European research area. Next slide. So in order to do our work, because we understand there is a lot of overlap in our discussions, but we understand that we need to tackle it from different perspectives, is we have four task forces. The first task force is on the, we are discussing on this minimal skill set for EOSC. The second task forces is discussing about the options for organization models for competent centers. The third is the national strategies. And the fourth one is on the specifications for training catalog. Since February, we have studied work in the first three. And now we will be starting a new task force in this in May and June on the specification of training catalogs. What I would like to say also is that we are not, you know, what we're trying to do in this working group is do not start from strategies that we built on existing initiatives. We have involved people in our group from projects. So we are confident enough that we have all these, all the expertise that we need. Next slide. So now I will give, you know, unless somebody has some burning questions, I will give the floor to Vensian to present what we have done in the minimal EOSC skill set. I think which is, you know, for the time being one of the most important outcomes of the group. And today I would like also to stress that what we are presenting is that, you know, it's open, it's a consultation day. So it's open for scrutiny. It's open for your comments. We're open for your comments. We're open because we want to get it right as, you know, as soon as possible. We don't have a lot of time since we started playing. So Vensian. Thank you, Natalia. Well, good afternoon all. Here you have the list of the members of the task force one on the minimal EOSC skill sets. Next slide please. And here is an outline of the objectives of this task force. So it's to establish a skills development framework. The idea is that it would be set, it would be minimal skill sets for EOSC. So we are working in the global environment of open science, fair data management and so on. But this is specifically for EOSC. This is our focus. And as Natalia said earlier, we are targeting different communities, different users. So you have the researchers, service providers, policymakers and also to a lesser extent, let's say at the beginning for the general public. I'll get back to this in a minute. Next slide please. Okay. So this task force, the idea of the task force is to first kind of a map and identify the target users in the ecosystem so that we are able to identify also the specific training needs. And this in a few slides you will see what is the result of this. This is a diagram that our colleague from the task force, Ignacio Blanquer prepared and it's been discussed already extensively, let's say, but we would be very happy to have your views on this. So that is the first step. Let's say that version one on this is ready and open for discussion or further consultation. Then we will have another building block which is a mapping exercise of the existing skills and competence frameworks. Again, Natalia mentioned that already we do not want to start from scratch. We do not want to duplicate what is already there and it's already working well. But at the same time, we want to have a clear focus on the AOSC here. Then once this mapping will be ready, the idea is then to identify and prioritize the open science and digital skillsets. Again, for those target users within the AOSC ecosystem, there will be a study or there should be a study to frame digital skills and a final step that will be addressed. We need to see if we will have time to do that and if it will be relevant to do it, it's to discuss the certification of the skillset and that has obvious links with the fair working group. Next slide, please. Okay, so very quickly, a tentative timeline for those steps, those building blocks from task force one. The diagram of the users, it will be at the next slides. I'm just checking myself, yeah. So the version one is ready. Then the mapping situation by the end of tune and then from the mapping, the identification and prioritization, right after the summer break, let's say, and then the study to frame skillsets. And then at the very end, we will have those deliverables that Latalia mentioned and possibly this discussion on the certification. Okay, next slide, please. And then I will ask you to bear with me as I will try to guide you through this diagram. So I decomposed the diagram in three steps so that you get the information step by step in order to, yeah, ease it. So step one, here you see a mapping of the different target users within the AOS ecosystem and you see also the associated roles. They are grouped. You can see that you have a color code at the bottom, at the top left, you see that the rings, the color rings, green, purple, orange, and blue correspond to the communities of those users and the roles. And you can see that some of them actually with their roles, it's a mix of different communities. Let me check if I don't forget. Oh yeah, so they are grouped according to, or based on similar interactions with the ecosystem and then related assumed similar training needs and skills. Last thing that I wanted to say is that, well, there are two, I'm checking my notes. It's the researcher role is, as you see, it's like more prominent at the top of the slide. It's because for the minimal AOSC, we will first focus on researchers. So that should be clear. It does not mean that we will not be addressing other roles afterwards, but at the first focus is on researchers. And the last on this, it's important also to mention that, of course, the transversal skills and the knowledge related to digital skills to open science, the regulations that is supposed or assumed to be like part of the package for any of those roles. Okay, so I think that's it for this first step. So next slide, please. Okay, so one less please. Yeah, okay. So thank you. So now I added the outer ring, the outer circles. They are also colored, the colors match the colors that you've seen at the upper left quarter. They map to the areas of activities. And what is important here is that you can see that the boundaries between the different areas, they are flexible. So this is what is represented with those kind of overlapping colors here. Next slide, please. And that will be step three. And in step three, what you can see is like, actually this is the diagram, the final diagram, but I thought it would be better to guide you step by step. Then you can see that the diagram is mapped onto the key elements of the minimal viable AOSC as presented in the Tinman report from the sustainability working group. So you can see that you have like those elements that are the AOSC core, AOSC exchange. You have the federated data, and then there is an ID that's a portion will be linked to ICT and some other proportion to the discipline. I think that's about it. So I think that I can leave the floor to Irina. Thank you. Thanks a lot, once again. Now I would like to ask you to go to Slider called EOSC Hub Week, and maybe, Rob, if you could go back to the diagram, because we want to ask a couple of questions about the diagram. Thanks a lot. So if you go to Slider, select the name of our session, which is Data EOSC Practical. You should see a question. Do you like this diagram? And I see four yes responses, seven, thanks. Let's wait another minute. Yeah, so far we have yes, 11 yeses. And maybe let's go to another question, which is more important for us, and you should see it now, what's missing? As once Jens said, it's still a work in progress, and people who worked on this diagram also, in this meeting also, maybe they could add something more. If we miss something, we're still discussing. So if you could let us know, if you see immediately that something is missing. Please add, I don't see any additions yet, but I also understand that it's really hard to jump in and command on something that you'll just see now, especially if it's a work in progress. And also if you can not join Slider. So if you have some issues joining Slider, maybe just type your answer here in the chat. Yeah, like once Jens said. So if it's easier for you to write in the chat, please use it. How is the hand to talk? Okay, I don't see any raise hands yet. So maybe we should continue with our second taskforce. And that's next slide, please, Rob. So our second taskforce focuses on options for organizational models of competent centers and their coordination. And you can see our taskforce members on the screen. And like I said, some of them are also here today. And next slide, please. We were thinking about competent centers that build competencies and skills of professional groups that support researchers in stewardship of research outputs, eOSC service providers, trainers, and of course, researchers, eOSC users, because like once Jens said, they are our main target audience. And we plan to release this document in quarter three, so probably towards the end of September. And we'll release a draft for consultations. And next slide, please. So we're looking at training and skills elements in these competent centers. And now we're doing a landscape analysis. So we're looking at the existing competent centers and their organizational models to see what works, what doesn't. And we're looking into three types of competent centers, those that are run by research infrastructures, national competent centers, and institutional competent centers. And our goal is to provide research infrastructures, countries, institutions with some suggestions how these competent centers could be more efficient, how they could be set up. And what's more important, or what's also important from our point of view is that we'd like to suggest some coordination models. And here I would like to put emphasis on plural, that we're not talking about setting up an eOSC competent center. We're talking about setting up some coordination levels, maybe federation of competent centers that would have eOSC compatibility as one of the elements. And they would be aligned in certain areas. And next slide, please. And here you see the diagram, which once again already showed. And what I added at the bottom are different services or key functionalities that those competent centers could provide in order to build skills that you can see on the diagram. And next slide, please. These are modded pills about services and key functionalities that such competent centers could have. And we adopted this typology from Ferris Fair deliverable reports. So for example, a competent center could provide training as a service or maintain a catalog of training resources. And you can see some of examples of organizations and research infrastructures that have such catalogs of training resources or provide training services. Another service or another functionality that this competent center provides is actual data service. And again, you can see some examples of infrastructures and organizations that do that. Then guidance, providing guiding resources advisory services. And you can see examples. Catalogs of resources, services, and policies is another area that the competent center might walk in. And then suggesting some standards. And again, you can see some examples on the slide. And we're not saying that a competent center should provide all these functionalities. A competent center could just provide one or two or three of these functionalities. And it's also not a complete list yet. Because like I said, we just started with this. And that's when I would like you to go back. Those who can slide, please, if possible. And I activated the next question. And the next question is, do you recognize this setup? So for example, if you already have a competent center in your organization or in your research infrastructure, does this description somehow capture what you do? OK, they have a couple of no. I don't know, maybe if someone said no, maybe you'd like to raise your hand and comment. Why no? OK, I don't see any raise hands yet. That's good to know. So maybe you can add that in a chart if you'd like. Or we'll have in a minute the next question, what's missing? We also have two questions here from Yuri. So I think this is a more fundamental one. And then from Sana about the legal aspects of research data management in this scheme. So do you want to answer Yuri's question now? Yes, I can answer. Yuri, the way we understand digital skills is that when we're talking about data-intensive science, there are different skills that we need to employ at whatever environment this is, that the data science is taking place. So data stewardship, data science, research engineering, ICT competence, but also leadership kind of competencies are very related. So what we don't want to do is we do not want to narrow ourselves in everything that is about data stewards and data scientists. It's more than that. There are existing publications on digital skills, because the work, there are discussions on the high political level is about upskilling and it's about many digital skills. So we'll explain in your third task was how we're trying to tackle that. But again, we don't think that Yuri's question will go down to open and fair data. If I may quickly jump in here as well. I don't know what you just said, Natalia. It was discussed also at some of our meetings that communication skills should be added as well. Communication within the system, so with other roles and other users of the system, but also like, let's say, towards the general public. So I think that this is also part of those general digital skills. Yeah, and there are existing frameworks. We can point to, we can point, and we will put them in our reports. So Yurina, about next question, Sana? Yeah, absolutely, Sana. Legal aspects of research data management will fall within this schema, because as you see what I showed are just high level types of services, and then we'll fill in every, each one of these five functionalities with more detailed services and description of what kind of skills and competencies in which areas they are building. So example that you showed is absolutely, that's one of the most important. Yeah, and thanks a lot, Yurii, for providing more links in wider context. We'll definitely get in touch with you. Then going back to our poll, so we have five yeses and five noes. There's a question of recognizing this setup. Well, that's a good starting point. And the next question that I would like you to answer, if you already have such a competent center, and if we ask you to describe briefly an organizational model, would you be willing to do so? Yeah, thanks. And I'll put my email in the chat for context. And I think we have at least one person who said yes. And then maybe the next question, and thanks a lot, Richard. The next question is what's missing? You know, a list of key functionalities. But maybe that's also a hard one if you just see this. So maybe we could go back rope to the slides. Thanks. So our next steps are to actually finalize this typology of key functionalities and services, describe organizational models, see what's already exist in Ferris Faire, Diosk pilot and other deliverables, project deliverables, and also reach out to some research infrastructure, some countries or some organizations that have competent centers in place already. And we hope to have the first write up sometimes this summer, then share it maybe early September for comments and have a final version in the end of September. I don't see any questions, just quick, no questions yet. So then over to you Natalia. Okay, before I go on to tonight to the third task force, I would like to answer a question from the beginning before you started the slide, the first question and slide though, was from Christine about what is the concept of training catalogs. So Christina and to the others, I think the catalog, the way we see it is that as with services and also as with data, EOS will have rules of participations also on training material. We understand that there will be criteria on what material and what is good and what is related to EOSK. And we also understand that this is going to be a decentralized process. So many institutions, many RIs, many players, actors will have their own training material. And the catalog is a means in order to gather the material that is relevant to EOSK in a more, I wouldn't say certified, but I would say with quality assurance mechanisms. And this is where you see an EOSK portal as a centralized place to access services. We understand that there are going to be many portals, many catalogs, many entry points for training material, but at least this would mean away the catalog. Again, this would be a mechanism in order to make sure that this criteria and quality assurance is the same, okay? Let us know if you need more explanations. So I will go now to the third task force, which is, and then after that, I would like to ask, I will explain what we will ask some questions and then we would like to have an open discussion, okay? So the third task force is about national digital skills strategies and where EOSK actually fits in. Because what we don't want to do is, we don't want to see that EOSK and all our work is that it's in a bubble of its own. We know that research and science, technology, innovation and social challenges and social mechanisms are well interconnected. So what we want to do is to see how this training is also, EOSK training is part of a wider agenda. So you can see that the members of our group, if you can go to the next slide. So the objective is here is to produce a high level strategic report on how skills and EOSK development and training fits in the wider national agenda. We are talking about training. I think we're talking about two different things here. When a minister has in their mind what is about digital skills, data skills, data intensive science or data intensive workflows is that the major thing is how to upskill the workforce. So how do we make a science workforce to be interoperable if you want with other activities and developments in the countries? So the EOSK skills, what we have already said it's about open fair data and it's about data intensive science. So that means that we are looking also at services and ICT services. There is the EU digital skills agenda and our objective is to see where EOSK fits into this. If you can press next. So what we want to do is we want to develop the scope of forest study that we will commission to some professionals to go around who are more experts in domains other than EOSK and research and make this connection. So as I will explain further on is in our timeline now we are in the phase of developing the scope of the study who we target and for what. Then we will commission a study and we will work with a winner of this, whoever carries that professional probably consulting company. But also what we want to do in parallel why we are commission where this study is proceeds is we want to deliver templates for the national strategies. Next slide. So who is our target audience? So our target audience is policy makers at our layers, ministries, academic institutions how to include in education on curricula this search performing organization staff for competent centers research funding and organizations and of course one of the first recipients should be the EOSK Association and partnership. Next slide. What we have found already is that there are other can you... Okay, there are other initiatives going on. One is the strategy the EC agenda and digital skills and job. This is an effort ongoing from 2016. Then we have the pending digital euro program and then as implementation goes we have a digital skills and job coalition which brings together member states, companies, social partners, non-profit organizations and all these actors at the member state. What we have seen already by doing a very small and brief landscape report is that one of the key gaps is that they are looking more on the digital skills as we talked before with Yuri everything except for data. So data science is kind of missing from this agenda. Next slide. So what are the key components of our study in our scoping? So first is the why. So what is the landscape and what are the possible connections and gaps? So what are the skills needed in order to do this science workflow which is interoperable with the other digital workforce? Who are the actors involved in every country or in most countries? So what kind of ministries and how are they looking at it? How can we look at career perspectives? And for the moment, everyone is talking about career perspectives in New York as part of a single career path. But what would be interesting to see is how are these career paths can be intermingled with the between public sector and industry and research. Then what are the structures? So for example, competent centers is one structure that we can achieve is. A next question that we want to address in this study is what are the costs and what would be the potential funding? Then about learning environment because we're talking about training, we're talking about skills but learning environments is against something that is this group usually does not look into. And when I say this group, I mean, EOSCA stakeholders. And then it's about coordination. So how can we coordinate all these efforts? Yuri, I see that you have raised your hand but let me finish and then I will give the floor to you, okay? Next slide, please. So our timeline is that we are now, we have gathered some information or preliminary scope in order to see what's going on out there. And we have sampled some countries. So what is the focus of these initiatives? Who are the actors involved? At which level professional or educational level they are moving? How is research included? Data versus IT and education versus life-long training. So what we are now, we will be doing in the next few days and maybe you can help us out with the questions that we have is we want to outline the key components of this study in order to commission it out by June 15. And then in parallel, we will be starting the templates for national strategies. So this is more or less about our timeline. Next slide. So next slide is about the slide of questions. So Yuri, before Irina puts the questions up, can you, do you want to say? Yes, I can comment about digital skills in general and mentioning about digital skills coalition for Europe. I don't know if you made this investigation. This is a program that is say, member states level. So it goes only through a coordination of activities that are in member states. So it's very, I would not say bureaucratic, it's quite formal. So I don't know if EOSC wants to be engaged in such kind of slow progressing and formal and member states level decision activity. But actually, there is also many, many, many activities related to the digital skills coalition at the level where the participation and contribution at the levels of expert project initiative is possible. It's like send a project that's digital skills, ICT skills and okay, I'm also occasionally participate in one project that develops skills, digital skills for maritime industry. Also working with this, what I mentioned in a chat, teach com that's mentioned about data and digital skills. So this is kind of- Thank you very much. Yeah, yeah. Yes, it's maybe useful. So this is all useful and what we would like through the studies because this is what we did ourselves in sampling some countries is that we see that there's a lot going on around digital skills. But again, it's the usual story in Europe, everything is silent because maybe it comes from another DG or it comes from other people. So what our challenge here is to do is to say, where does EOSC fit into this? We don't expect that EOSC, we expect some study that will say, here is what EOSC, here is what research, the research endeavor has more requirements, less requirements or different requirements. And what we would like to see is to make this connection. So when we're talking about national strategies on digital skills and training, EOSC has its own corner. And hopefully not separated from the others. Yes, I mean, yes, Matthew, I think we will be approaching it on two levels. One, all of the task forces. One is through education and education curricula for researchers, but also the secondaries through lifelong learning and how to do these professionals, these research data or ICT or whatever EOSC professionals in order to have good career paths. Any other question before we go? But thank you, Gili. I mean, and this digital framework was very much mentioned in the latest OECD report. And the OECD people participate in our groups, telling us, bringing this into our attention and telling us what are the differences and what are the pros and cons. Natalia, can I add a couple of words? Actually, what I notice, OECD starting, like promoting or making study on science digitalization. And this is why the scope, and it's indeed where is a digital comp and the digital skills are connected in a broader way. And they have quite interesting kind of results that may give us hint what to develop and which direction to look. Science digitalization. Yes, so there is this report and also one upcoming, I'm coming now to be published in the summer about science as an enterprise and training in science. So what the group and what the study will do is make sure that all of these things taking into account is to make subtle ways and views and lenses where we see training on digital skills. And hopefully this is going to be something that at the end of the year, we're going to have a more clear pictures in our mind because what we think is important is that we need to approach our policymakers at the national level and people need to understand that data is data, ICT is ICT, EOSC is a part of a whole picture and also for the workforce, what is important in order to make sure that we have this career path ways in EOSC is that they're not in silent. People can move from one sector to the other from industry to research, to research to public sector and they need to have this as a holistic approach. I think this is why we have started this task force. So can we go to the questions, Irene? And do you see Andres' question, Natalia? Ah, okay, sorry. Training service is intended to be in the national EOSC core. Andrea, is this related to the competent centers or maybe you want to better to clarify the question because I'm not sure I understand it. Yeah, so morning. My question is related to whether when these training services will be, it will be available to users. So it will be built on top of EOSC core and EOSC marketplace or it will be part of the EOSC core or EOSC marketplace. May I say something Andrea and Vincent and Irina can tell us better? We're not so much involved in the specific or EOSC core marketplace. But the first and second task forces, they take this into account in order to see what are the digital skills and what are the organizational models. We're looking into a more decentralized and more holistic and more distributed approach. So I'm not sure what it means to have the training services on the EOSC marketplace. It means for us that if somebody wants to advertise their services, learning catalogs or training service personnel or whatever they want to put out there, they would have to abide to the rules of participation of EOSC. But what the work that we are doing is what we're trying to do on the first task force is to better classify these people and the roles. So maybe we can have a better tagging if you want for the EOSC marketplace. And the second is about because we know EOSC is a decentralized place, how can we foster competent centers or whatever we want to call them is that people think when they set this up, they can feel aligned to EOSC. I mean, Irina or Bransyan? I think you covered that well. Okay, thank you. I was just wondering in fact, if it was already known which strategy, EOSC's strategy is going to be implemented. Thank you. We will know in the next one or two years, we will know. And Rob will show our current slide a question and thanks a lot to those who already responded. So you see the current? Yeah, over to you Natalia. Okay, so difficult. It is difficult. May I say something? Because even thinking about it is we're trying to see where is the clarity. You know, what is very hard is that in each member state or European country or associated country is that things are done differently. They're approached differently, right? So where do you have, you know, where is this national, you know, national agenda? Our aim is not to put EOSC from the beginning in the national agenda. We don't, you know, we don't have such aspirations is that what we want to is by the end of the year to have a report, a very high level report that will make the connections. And given this report, then, you know, the EOSC, the partnership, the commission, the whoever, they can start, you know, elaborating and implementing that. Okay, alignment is needed in coming years, but this is not possible. It is essential, I would say. Alignments on what? There are different, you know, there are different types of alignment or alignment strategies. It is essential. And may I say also, because, you know, yesterday I was looking into the questions of the European Commission about the European research area, I think these kinds of discussions should be a priority, you know, digital skills and upskilling and embedding work forces. In my opinion, you know, we should make an effort as representatives of the community to put it as a key priority in error. So now, national strategies depend on a large number of communities and there is level, okay. Open science, the hardest part is maybe bringing everyone to speak. Yes, yes, okay. Then Michelle, okay. In July, okay. Maybe Michelle, maybe you want to say something about it and maybe especially the difference between what Yuri said about the digital science, what is the difference between these two reports? Hi, I'm sorry, maybe my video is not working at the moment. Yeah, it's Michelle Barker here. I was the chair of the expert group that ran the OECD Global Science Forum work that Natalia's referenced a little bit. So we have a report coming out in July and I've just put it in the chat if you're interested in knowing a bit more than contact me. I work at a different focus to the EOS work in that we aim to make recommendations to policy makers in government. That's the primary aim of the OECD is to enhance the work of governments in achieving their outcomes. But within the work, we also make recommendations to a range of other stakeholders like universities and research infrastructures, libraries, research funders. And so the work was really looking at how digital skills can be developed within a national system, acknowledging that there's a whole range of different players, that there's different skills needed, that there's different models for enabling training and there's additional complexities such as how we enable career paths and appropriate incentives for newly emerging roles. So there's certainly a large amount of crossover between that work, but EOS is looking much more concretely how to solve some of these issues in the shorter term and how to set up some viable structures. So it's fantastic that we're able to contribute to ensure that the pieces of work continue to build on each other. Thanks Natalia. Thank you Michelle. I think the OECD report is a great work and we understand that it tries to find a common ground between different perspectives all over the world. And this is where a job in EOS is to come in and say what we actually want. So, okay, so Ellen says it's a pity, it's a shame that Slido doesn't work for many people. Please, we don't, how much time do we have Irina? We have two more minutes. Would somebody raise, you know, their hands, you know, what you want to research methods training? Okay, good, great. I think when you say research, the person who said research methods training is maybe because it's a terminology issue is that is this what I call, you know, more innovative learning environments? And Natalia, this was me, Yuri. Yuri, okay. Yes, we realized from a long time ago from still a decent time that research methods are growing acceptance not only in science area, in data science, but also in industry. So they are, and also digital skills has elements what can be treated as a research methods, but then developing understanding what, how to research, how to state a problem. It's also a big difference even between different countries. Okay. For example, in Europe, typically students are well-prepared to do the research. In countries, Eastern countries, they don't have even such kind of notion what is research method that how to start, how to set up problem solving from the beginning to the end. So this means research method. And another story that research methods are well-developed in non-computer science, but less developed in computer science and data science. So this means that there is something to do. Maybe Yuli, what you can say is if you can possibly send me an email of a small paragraph, okay, to say what exactly you mean, because I would like probably to put that as, what is the additional requirements of research versus the other digital skills areas? Areas of digital skills. Would you do that? Thank you very much. Okay. How does this work relate to the worker Anders? Okay. Can I say that it should relate and we have not even contacted your HPC and I think this should be on our agenda. Okay. Thank you. Okay. So this is, you know, Irina, we should take that into account. So I think because Irina, maybe I, you know, the questions probably is, you know, I like to discussion more than the questions. Can I say that, you know, what we're doing, one of the most important things now for the, for the outputs is what Vincenna showed. Because this will guide a lot of our thinking in the next rounds. So would it be possible, you know, Vincenna, how would people, how could people give input to this document offline? Oh, that's a very good question. I think the idea was now to have a diversion that I presented as supposed to be V1. And it was mentioned that we would consult. They don't know how we will do that. I know they're not too, too have too much. So maybe the best would be to get in touch with me, maybe Iniasio. I don't know if Iniasio is there. Let me check. Iniasio is there. Iniasio, do you, yeah, you're here. Do you mind sending your email address? I will do the same. And what we could also do, we could publish this as a blog. Now we can group page and add an email for contacts there. Yeah, that would be very good. So I will type my address. And we'll follow up on the people who would be interested. We will get back to them. I think that's, okay. Thanks a lot. We are past one hour now. I think for us, definitely that was very useful session. Hope you also got something out of it. And we're just starting. So we'll be in touch with you with more requests for comments and feedback. Last chance to ask any questions you wanted to ask. I apologize for the slide though. Thanks a lot. Then I guess we will have a break now. And then there will be new sessions according to the schedule. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye. Enjoy your lunch. Bye.