 Welcome to Kwok Talk. Today we're gonna talk about some sticky issues again. Now when it comes to gender and sexuality, as you know today, it's just an oversensitive issue. And why is it oversensitive? Why are people not comfortable talking about certain issues that perhaps people don't want to identify with? And speaking of identity, how is it when a person realizes that they are not in a particular gender identity that they're comfortable with and the concept of coming out, what does that mean? It's so loaded, yeah? We always think, oh, what was your aha moment of coming out? It's that simple. So we're gonna talk to a wonderful guest today to kind of unpack what it means to be transgendered and to feel the need to kind of, you know, own up to who you are. So join us now as I introduce my guest, PhD candidate in American Studies, Ava Ladner. Welcome Ava. Thank you. Now, so it's quite complicated and interesting that we've titled you under your PhD student affiliation. And yet you're coming on on behalf of talking about your identity. Tell me what the crossover is between those two. Okay, so there is a connection between the two, shall we say? Because it was in a class that I actually, like, began the aha moment, shall we say? Okay. And it was in a gender and sexuality class. And it was one of those when I got to a certain text and we were going through it and I was like, wait a minute. And it kind of had led back to like clues that I've left myself throughout my life and like my own questioning of things and like how I'd approach some things. And like as an undergrad, I remember hanging out in a certain part of the library looking for information. And I like kept going through aspects. And I was like, that's not me. That's not me. And part of it is the vocab wasn't there at the time. So part of it is the development of vocab and the research and the things to kind of enunciate these things better. And I think that's helped a lot of people as far as coming up, but not just shall we say trans, but like all kinds of different aspects of sexuality and gender. Right. Do you think it's something about the trend of the times that kind of helped bring it all together in surface? Do we just say? Trend of the time, like if you want to say access to information, absolutely. So like, aside from the internet, just the fact that there is more scholarship in this area, right? This is not in the early 90s that was starting, but it really comes out in the, I'd say mid-auts, like when we get the flourish, like Susan Stryker and other people are starting to release books that really deal with this. We get Jennifer Boylan writing about her experiences, these type of things. And it's like, those are the moments that actually kind of really catapulted it. Yeah, and bring it out. But you know, you're, I mean, I had to say, I'm not going to age you, but that's quite late for you to come out. A lot of people come out during their, you know, sexual awakening. Yeah, puberty or something like that, yeah. You must have had moments growing up and, okay, so how much did that kind of trigger or was it suppressed because of your background? I know you do your research is in the South and you are from the South and things that kind of suppressed who you are. I'm both from the South and the North. Okay, tell us about that. You're from? Right, so I grew up in Philadelphia. After I graduated high school, I moved South. Okay. But I was in Miami first and then Georgia. So the North would suppress it in one way or repress it, like I would repress it. And then in the South, the same kind of thing where it's like, I didn't necessarily belong there to begin with. Right, okay. Cause I was very familiar with the question of, you're not from around here, are you? Yeah, now that's a side that I think of. And it was like, right, I'm not from around here. So like to add that other element would have been extremely, I think, taxing in a lot of ways, right, to be trans- So that came literally, yeah, okay. So I think those type of things really kind of pressed it down. But like I went through the, you know, you're supposed to be a boy, grew up a boy, you know, played football, those type of things. Your parents had a lot of kind of direction. That was the expectations, and I'd say like both societal and family construct. Yeah, yeah, okay. So when you say the aha moment, going back to your adult life. You have, right? For a while. So all the time before then, did you not embrace who, or that must have been very frustrating to not own up to who you think you are? Yeah, so like one of the things I kind of laugh about is like, I'm a good actor, because I acted the part for so many years. But the whole time I was like trying on different things, trying to be like, okay, there's something not quite right. You dared not wear dresses and all these things until you- So that's one of the funny elements. Like before I came out, I'd started to- Okay. And I was comfortable in them, but I didn't like, hadn't necessarily embraced my own sense of femininity. Okay. And all this- I was still very much like in costume, shall we say. Ah, okay. Can we like break it down for people who have no clue or kind of like are just wary of this whole trans world? It's an awesome mess. Go for it. Is it? Okay, so let's like, what's the difference between transsexuality, transgender, transsexual, well transsexuals when you actually have this sexual operation, is that right? Well, so trans, yeah. So here we go. So like intersex, you're born with both male parts and female parts. Okay. And that's where we've seen like, experiments go wrong in the past as far as like, a person- Does the operation? Yeah, they have an operation and they like try to force somebody into being a girl or a boy. Right. And it goes poorly. And it like, you can't force a person to, that's what they've discovered basically. So intersex is being born with both. Transsexual is like, comes later. It's the better way to say it. But it mainly deals with the body in certain ways. So gender deals with identity. So it's not what's between your legs, it's up here. Well up here. Right, well yeah, right. Either way you want to put it. Heart and mind? Yeah, but not down there. This is what people kind of assume. Like okay, so oh, you have a penis so you're a guy. It's that simple. Right, and I'm thinking of a scene from the show Pose. I don't know if you saw it. Well it was on last summer. The F-axis show Pose by Ryan Murphy was really awesome because it put trans women of color as like at the forefront. Okay. And like one of the comments was like this one woman says to a trans woman, she's like, but you're a woman. And like she responds by saying, well thank you. But then the other woman rises that like she does have the genitalia of a male and like she's confused by that. Okay. And it's like, yeah, so like I'm thinking of like one of the Twitter things is like some women have penises, that type of thing. And some men have vaginas. So it's like that type of thing exists. It's almost two different levels and sometimes they overlap but sometimes they're completely separate. Right, it's a mess. So was there any, were there any thoughts in your process in wanting to change sex? Physically, biologically. Well, I mean, in some ways I have because I'm on hormones. Okay. So like obviously I didn't have breast before. Okay. Skin changes, those type of things. But like the operation. Right, but the confirmation surgery. No, because like I don't have that kind of whatever toward my body. Like some people really hate that part of their body. Oh, okay, okay. And I'm just like. Okay, but so you, can we get into like your- But I'll go with the fact that I've thought about anarquiactomy which is removing. Is that what it's called? Removing of the testicles. Okay. Oh, that's specific. Yeah, so arquiactomy is removing that aspect. Oh, because of the testosterone that's being produced by it. That part and also like part of its aesthetics. Okay. Like it's easier to wear certain things without that part of the body. Well, you wear hats all the time. Well, come on out. You see you in skirts mostly. I don't actually ever see you in pants. Right. Yeah. Skirt stresses. Yeah, yeah. Now, you have a steady partner. Yes. So because you don't have a sex change but you identify as female, like how do you have sex? Hmm. Like do you have sex as a male? I don't think about it that way. Okay, Steve, that's why I need to get out of my binary thinking. And I'm probably asking it the wrong way. But I- No, no, so like- And I'm not asking you for a tail. I kinda am. I think there's one of those aha moments in that. So I think it was the first time we were getting physical. Yeah, yeah. Okay, it wasn't the first time. But we'd gotten more intimate. Yeah. And it had taken a little while and all that. And it was the first time she took off my bra and started fondling my breasts. But she knows you as who you are, right? Yeah, right. She doesn't think in like the wrong- Right. Okay. And that was like, whoa, totally different. Can I just interrupt right now? Sorry, I just need to do a disclaimer. For people who think this is inappropriate for young children, just tell them to go in their room for a little while because we're talking about sexual issues. Adult matter, okay? Just saying. All right, go ahead. Yeah, that first moment of like actually being touched like that, like blew my mind. It was like, oh, to be appreciated- So you never had that before? Right. You never had a relationship with a female before? No, I've had relationships with females before. But I've never had them approach me like a female. Oh, that's so interesting. Right. That kind of touching was different. Right. And everything about it has been different. Okay. So in a lot, like I like to joke that I was like a virgin again. Okay, so then because, okay, now that- Then you go for it then. Because you still have the male genital. Do you still penetrate or is it less? Yeah, but it's been weird. Kind of a blurry area, right? Yeah. So when you think about, you know, you embody female and yet there are parts of you that are kind of contradict that. Absolutely. Right, and like the presentation stuff like that. Yeah. Like once again, like the comment on the clothes I wear, they have to navigate that too. I noticed, you know, it was in my class in the history class right now, she sits next to me and I always notice she wears these different nice skirts but she gets male men's shoes on. Thinking about that, like is it because you can't find shoes or size? Yes, okay. Is it huge? I know. What size are your feet? 15 or 16. Even as a guy you would have to find shoes. Yeah, so I can't find cute shoes. Oh, sorry. Yeah, draw back. That is one area where I struggle. It's all right, so okay. I do have a couple that I've found over the years but like it's really difficult actually. The shoes are one of the things where I get frustrated. I would totally, I would sympathize with you because I would think- Especially when you're wearing like a good dress or something. I know, right. So how do you want people, people just don't know what to make of this blurry area in sexual identity. How do you want people, what do you want people to know of you? Okay, so like I think one of the things that works with me is like I'm not hyperfemme, right? Like I'm not trying to be like- Yeah, you're not like total like- The he-he girl, right? Oh gosh, it's kind of annoying offense to those who are. But there are some that that's where their version of femininity lies. Yeah. Like finds like no, like you can be a normal- Normal what? Like I just see that I think of like strong women and things like that, right? Like I don't, I think of classmates so- Right. They're not like trying to be all he-he. Right. But like some people think like if they see me though it's just like a feminized male, right? And it's like I think that's where the line gets blurry in a certain way. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. So it's not just, so there's the layer of the pure sexuality, the kind of the biological component and then there's the layer of how we present ourselves and how we dress to identify ourselves. And then- Yeah, I mean let's go back to the sexual aspect of saying like, so I prefer women, cis women. So cis gender, right? Like those were born and agree with their gender. Okay, okay. Okay, I'm learning, I'm learning. Yeah, so I prefer them. But obviously there are trans women that prefer men. And then there's trans people that prefer trans people and like all this mess and it's a fun stew. Have you ever slept with a male before? No. Okay. And you never even had like kind of experimental so that you know that this confirms, ah, this is not what I want. I'd never even like, anytime I think I got close enough I was like, I already knew. Yeah. Like the vibe wasn't there for me. So you knew like from day one. It's just the kind of social pressures and just things around you that kind of really unfortunately suppress who you think you are. It's not about coming out as in discovering something influenced by your environment necessarily. What? Yeah, we'll take a quick break. I'll reiterate the question afterwards. But people, if you are interested as I am in understanding kind of the gender sexuality dynamics of the world of trans, please. Join us and continue joining us as we engage in this very interesting conversation. Don't go away. Aloha, this is Winston Welch. I am your host of Out and About where every other week, Mondays at three, we explore a variety of topics in our city, state, nation and world and events, organizations, the people that fuel them. It's a really interesting show. We welcome you to tune in and we welcome your suggestions for shows. You got a lot of them out there and we have an awesome studio here where we can get your ideas out as well. So I look forward to you tuning in every other week where we've got some great guests and great topics. You're gonna learn a lot. You're gonna come away inspired like I do. So I'll see you every other week here at three o'clock on Monday afternoon. Aloha. Aloha, I'm Wendy Lo and I'm coming to you every other Tuesday at two o'clock live from Think Tech Hawaii. And on our show, we talk about taking your health back. And what does that mean? It means mind, body and soul. Anything you can do that makes your body healthier and happier is what we're gonna be talking about. Whether it's spiritual health, mental health, fascia health, beautiful smile health, whatever it means, let's take healthy back. Aloha. Hi, back to Think Tech. I'm Crystal here talking to Ava Ladner who is a PhD student candidate at the UH Manoa. And we're talking about her transsexuality and the world of it and how you as a woman will explore these issues and challenge social norms by being who you are. Again, I asked her before, I don't really remember how I kind of asked it, but basically in essence is what do you want people to know who you are? Basic element, still person. Yes. And people can't forget that though. Yes. Right? Especially because of labeling those type of things, tokenism or aggression, those type of things, right? Still a person. Where do you think all this comes from? Ah, this is a great question. Like the hostility, is that what you're talking about? Or the... The narrow-mindedness of people not able to see in-betweens. I mean, I think it's because in the modern world we've developed such a binary for everything. So if you think about all of our forms, right? This or this, right? Those type of things. And it's really been codified over time, especially I think post-World War II America. It was easier that way, right? Black and white. Yeah, yeah. Yes or no, these type of things. And it's easier to collect data in that regard. So companies like it. The government likes it. So those type of things are the way I've kind of thought about it. And anything that's a variance of their sexuality, gender, those type of things, they really frustrate the system. Yeah. And what about religion? That's a big part of it, isn't it? What about religion? I hate to go there, but I can't see it not affecting the way people develop their views on things. Absolutely right. On sexuality, we're talking about. Yeah, and I think, right. And that's a really frustrated topic. Especially like, I think of Baptists and Catholics of Catholic... And I've been thinking to the radio today about all those new accusations against the Southern Baptist Churches. Like, oh God, this is so ugly. Right, and oddly enough, so I teach a trans class, right? Trans studies at UH. And I had to look up different views on how religion intersects with some of these things. And a group I'd never even thought about, I was like, how do the Jews view this? Right, right. They're probably more open-minded than any others. They actually are. Even the Orthodox Jews tend to lean a little left and they're like, yeah, we're pretty okay with that. And then of course the progressive and I guess the middle of the road Jews. From what I've read, granted I can't speak for the Jews. But they've all been like, yeah, cool, whatever. And then you see that with a lot of Christianity where like the Episcopalians and a bunch of other ones are like, whatever. Really? Are they really whatever? Yeah, they actually are, which has surprised me. And there's even like a string of churches now that are like opened and affirming so they don't care about your gender, your sexuality, those type of things. I think they claim it because they have to, but deep down inside they have judgment. I seriously do. Now let's bring in... I mean, there are churches that actually we're in the private, so like... Do you go to church? I mean, I don't know why I'm here. I have recently, so yeah. Okay, all right. So let's bring in, okay, so we touched on these, sorry, the religious element, but let's bring in the cultural elements too. Like how is this seen in different cultures? Your partner is an Asian background, right? So like how does that... You mean from a conservative standpoint? Yeah, for people who traditionally think of things like you said, binary and... Yeah, and right, and like, especially like very patriarchal society, very much put in a block, yeah, right? So like, I think they have to acknowledge their own kind of like outside the box thinking first. Well, you think about like Chinese history, I'm thinking Chinese history, right? The eunuchs, you know, when they were castrated to work in the palace and the whole kind of concept of, of course it wasn't their choice, you know, this was always to serve the princesses, but the concubines or whatever, but the concept of being androgynous has always throughout history been, it's always been there. Well, certainly we see that especially with ties, right? Like, is it like the fascination with the Thai lady boys and those things? Like that's an element of the tourism, unfortunately, for that country. Because it's a spectacle, though. Right, and it's like it very much denigrates or places them as less than, right? Rather than being an actual once again people. Yes. But if we think of like extremely developed like Japan or Korea or these type of places where it's like very structured and these type of things, like this is a mess, right? Yeah, so how do you deal with that? Or how do you just, you don't even go there, you just say, okay, this isn't that hard and I just crack and I'm just gonna do my own thing? Actually, at times it has been like that where it's like, okay, well, you dig me some, it doesn't matter. I'll let you figure it out, right? But it might affect you if you're involved with the relationship. No, no, I agree with that, but at times it's just better to be like, we're good. Have you met her parents yet? Not yet. Would you? Yeah, I'm actually looking forward to it. Okay. I'm like fascinated by doing this. You're fascinated, maybe even good thinking. I don't know yet. Do they know who you are? Barely. Do they know you're? No. So that's where it'll be fun, right? So you guys are just gonna like just, you get to show and tell like meet, meet and greet and say hi. Yeah, I think that's, yeah. I've questioned that, I'm like, should we prep them or what? Yeah, so I mean. That's so interesting. If you're doing a tactic, you want to go with it. No, maybe your practice is like, really old fashioned people out of here and to try it out. That's what's funny, like so, like having been to like, Korean restaurants, Japanese restaurants where like there's an older presence that is probably like first generation, if not. Right. Yeah. Yeah. How do they proceed? Yeah, they tend to be actually really friendly. Good. So I've always kind of been like, maybe that's a good barometer. Like maybe things will go all right then. Well, maybe, I don't know. That's the other thing, right? That's another thing. So going forward, do you feel compelled that this is kind of like your almost responsibility to use this in your work? Absolutely. Good. Unfortunately, as far as my project for my PhD, like I was too far along to actually incorporate this into that. Right. But I've already developed a class. I'd like, I see this as something that I'm supposed to be doing. And I really kind of find joy in it. And I think it resonates with my students sometimes as far as like, I'm just being me and therefore they think that they should be themselves too or they're encouraged to see that and believe in that kind of construct. Right. And it doesn't mean they're all gonna come out as being anything, but like that they're just a little more free. Right. On the flip side of it is this hyper-conservative, binary, dominant people who feel that there is no room in society for marginal identities like this. What do you have to say to these people and to make them understand or to open up because this whole movement going forward, some people are thinking, oh, it's too much. It's like, everything is so blended now that we don't have distinguished things of who we are. So I mean, thanks. You sound like the comment section of any article that comes out anymore, right? It's like, you're born with this gentile, so you're this, you know, there's only two genders that type of stuff. There's only two sexes. Well, that's actually bullshit. Like if you study biology, there is a range of genders. There's a range of sexualities. I mean, some even have the ability to flip. Yeah. Even microorganisms, like microorganisms have like both sexes there. They can do it easily. So it's, it's, that's it. Anyway. What? Yeah, you can. Yeah, okay. Like I have such problem with that and it really just deals with limited capacity to understand these things, right? And like they just haven't been introduced to them, but that's difficult. So how do you break down those barriers? Right. So like, I mean, I hate to be like, well, where is this taking place? But like we see it in certain parts of the country, like definitely like your Trump states and stuff like that. As far as these attitudes being prevalent. Yes. How do you break that down? Yeah. I don't know sometimes. And so like, I think of other struggles that are still happening in those states. I mean, we think of racist behaviors that exist in the South and other parts of the country. So over between racism and gender issues must be like a double whammy. Yeah, right. Just especially think of trans people of color. I mean, they're the ones that are like the murder rate on for them is terrible. Yeah. Yeah. So like, I don't know. I hope that things like optics that seen more trans people and things like film, other areas like I think that I'll break for a second and say it's when I had started hormones and all that stuff and was getting shots every couple of weeks at the clinic and I ran in as somebody who works at the HHHRC, Health, Harm and Reduction here in Hawaii. Okay. And she said, what do you do? And I said, well, I'm getting my PhD and like she was thrilled by that because like it's a, putting a trans person in a different place and like says, yeah, we can do that too. And like I didn't have that vision, but she did. Right. And it's, sorry to interrupt. No, go for it. But the fact that it's not even the courses which you're doing are brilliant, these new trans related courses, but you, your presence in the university is exactly what she's trying to say. Yeah, like even just getting the PhD, not even to teaching, because I hadn't even gotten that far yet. But like, she's like, we need you to do that. And like, and here I was like thinking that like, oh, like I couldn't relate to her and she sees something beautiful in it. So. And you're not doing it in a way, you're like holding a big sign saying, hey, look, you know, we look at me and support trans talk. And it's not like that. No. It's you just embodying who you are and then going from there and people accepting you for who you are. I mean, it sounds kind of. Actually, it sounds funny, but one of the things that really came along with coming out was like, I actually gained a lot of confidence. So like I feel like I can be persecuted more, but yet I gained confidence. Good. Which is really kind of a weird switch, right? Yeah, that's the ironic thing about that. So you mentioned earlier about resources. Do you really feel that there's an increase in the resources around, particularly in Hawaii? Well, Hawaii, I think is one of the best places. Oh, okay. Just because of the history here, right? Of like the Hahu, right? So like, I mean, there is a cultural ingrained aspect. And I think that is like actually been one of the things that's helped Fulman more resources here. Right. I mean, if you read somebody like Dana Mach's biography, like she talks about like there was a doctor here that was giving shots back in the 80s. You know, those type of, yeah, back in the 80s. Those type of things. They have been here for quite a while. I mean, there's a couple of clinics, Planned Parenthood does shots now, things like that for both male and female direction people. These type of things are really helpful. Yeah, no, people don't know about it. Right. And I think there's becoming more resources. And I think there's, I don't know, I'd say it easier-ness to it here. Well, it's just the beginning, right? It's just kind of a slow thing going forward. But I think in light of that, I want to mention that we have this upcoming conference at the University of Hawaii. I don't know if you want to do a shout out for this. It's a panel discussion at the International Graduate Student Conference. And Ava is going to be one of the panel speakers after the keynote speaker, Judge Sabrina McKenna. And you- Yeah, I don't know how I got invited. Again, it's your presence. So when does it tell people how it's open to the public? Yeah. This is February 14th, Valentine's Day. 4.30 is when the conference begins, right? Yeah. And the topic, as you can see, is gender, sexuality and access to resources, which is really interesting and useful and necessary. Yeah, actually, so having lived in Mississippi, the access to resources is something that I actually am familiar with as far as there's only like two Planned Parenthoods in the state of Mississippi. Oh, gee. So like if you want those types of things, you got to go to Tennessee or one of the other neighboring states because like Tennessee has them near Memphis and stuff like that. But it's like, yeah, I mean, that lack of access is a real problem. So we're bringing out issues that aren't even on the table and so we're kind of looking outside of the norm. And if you open your eyes to what's out there and seeing people as they are, there are lots of interesting conversations that come up out. And so I think I hope you kind of took in what Ava shared today. And if you want to hear more, please come to the conference. I'm going to be moderating it. And we have Ava as one of the panel guests and we're going to rock the boat, right? We'll be hanging out again. Okay, February 14th at the Emion Center at the UH Manoa. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much Ava for sharing all your personal and public life and good luck with your PhD and your life in teaching and everything going forward. Thanks, I'll see you in class. All right? Thanks.