 to say anything it is on record it's now being recorded so don't say anything that you wouldn't want said publicly I mean you wouldn't want disseminated publicly but not that you know a lot of people are looking at the recordings so here we are an exciting and crazy time probably scary and also especially for me in New York City it's problematic to say the least so we start off by talking about the antitrust policy as you know participation in these meetings has to respect the hyperledger antitrust policy anyone who does not agree to this please leave the other thing is code of conduct basically it says that we treat each other with respect even when we are disagreeing with people or even agreeing with people don't say anything nasty these are the only two rules we operate under the meeting is completely open and I was just talking to Michael Castillo who's on the meeting so he's listening in also let's go down the list here and please introduce yourself with a 20 second sort of pitch on why you are here and what excites you Bobby hi I'm Bobby mascara I'm from the learning materials working group my main goal is we're working on a project to gather use cases for the community so I'm here to help out with your project use case page in case you have any interesting use cases you want to share with the community and I'm also interested in how everyone's doing hi vipin Jim hi I'm Jim I work with Bobby on the learning materials learning group and still interested in use cases as well and look forward to what use cases we can find out of this group as well so thank you Karen oh I don't want to call you call on you right away let's go down the list Kelly probably doesn't want to talk because she's probably taking notes uh then we come to money you want to say something money yeah by the okay yeah go ahead um yeah I'm Manny for life from slops up um we are you know engaged in building digital assets for the capital markets um the life cycle system so you know one of the things that we are looking at is to adopt the new token taxonomy framework uh with type alleged basis so that's the project that we are undertaking and we've been and I are working on this and you know we welcome contributions from others um Michael in case you want to say anything you can do so because more people are here hi thanks I'll just pipe in Michael Del Castillo here I'm associate editor at Forbes um been following Hyperledger from the very beginning um I'm interested to learn more about what you guys are doing and um I'm mostly here uh to sort of um learn the materials I would imagine that if I do end up doing any articles um you would hear from me um with a more formal request to talk on the record um though uh Bippin made it clear that this conversation is on the record uh I don't want to discourage a free exchange of ideas so um you know please don't uh don't don't be concerned about my presence here and uh you could expect to hear from me with a follow-up question if anything does happen yeah it's on the record in so far as it's recorded and put on the Hyperledger wiki uh the next person is Sean I'm very glad to see you here um hello my name is Sean Young I'm working on a new stability compiler called Solang and um I was I'm kind of interested in this group so I thought I'd join all right Karen in case you want to say anything hi this is Karen I'm part of the Hyperledger staff um and excited to see um some new faces in the group today yeah so before we go dive further into the Italo project I want to talk about the capital markets sig a little bit because uh capital markets are the what I call the ore use case of blockchain the first ever use case is payments which is definitely part of um the capital markets umbrella and we formed this group about six months ago or maybe even a little more may time flies uh the rationale was to talk about all the different aspects of the capital markets and see where blockchain applies and in particular Hyperledger um technologies so we have come a long way we started with the taxonomy which talked about the structure of the instruments of capital markets we already published one it's available on our projects page uh the second thing we talked about was a bunch of different projects that people were interested in some of them obviously have fell by the wayside but many of them are still active and alive they include things like regulations which is very important capital markets standards uh and if I bring up my uh page on the projects that be on the projects then I can show you something more about the details of all the projects that we do that we are that we have started it doesn't mean that we are anywhere with some of them are very vast so I'm going to share a screen about the projects just give me a second sorry it's taking a couple of minutes here can you see the screen yes we can yeah all right thanks so like I was uh saying we have the taxonomy the standards uh the use cases which is where you you might come in uh Bobby obstacles which uh which uh was a proposal by Kelly that means what are the things that are standing in the way of uh capital markets project at scale in enterprises today uh then we have the regulation Ron had uh brought up a huge book that gathered all the different regulations from various areas of the world various sovereign nations various other agencies like FATF and others the next one is like obviously the one that we are going to focus on today the tokenization and digital currency work and the oracles was some something proposed by Weicheng Neo not not much work has happened in that but oracles are very important because it basically talks about how to get off-chain data into smart contracts into the ambit of the chain itself so that we can we can be sure what the data the data that's coming through is good and secure uh this is a non-trivial problem and uh many proposals have been uh made for that now we come to the main section of the project which is to talk about ETHALER which is a project that we proposed for modeling a central bank digital currency uh we are following it from the TTF TTF is a token taxonomy framework which was started under ethereum enterprise alliance i mean too many words there but basically they are trying to standardize how a token is defined when we come to the ETHALER project and look at the token formula we can see how it becomes important to think about a token as a composable set of behaviors and subsequently what those behaviors turn out to be in terms of implementation uh meaning tubes have a certain behavior like transferable or any other kind of behavior you have to finally implement it with an interface and the interface has a certain signature as we say in uh in programming and that those have to be a met and interfaces are contracts basically contracts between the implementation and the outside world and the contract says that this particular uh behavior in order to be implemented must have these functions and the function signature has to be so and so so it freezes that uh that outside that contract with the outside world which of course goes a long way towards interoperability towards all these other properties that we are looking for now i'm going to stop sharing this screen and i'm going to come up with another screen which is a set of slides that i developed and uh you know so i want to say that um that i'll that we'll go through that but before that i want money or anyone else to talk about what's happening with the ETALER project and why is this important today because if you if you if you had the red the house bill uh that was created just a few days a couple of days ago obviously you couldn't read the whole thing because it's a 1400 page document but there are some significant things in there which are to dealing with QE for the people and why is a central bank digital currency important there they do talk about uh giving a check to every American well under with certain constraints and the way to distribute it is through a digital wallet and they also talk about issuing the currency onto a blockchain but obviously this is not going to happen for this particular distribution which is in the form of a QE to the people of course the QE to the others is about three times as large meaning or even four times as large because you know the standard QE is still going on uh in any case the whole concept of CBDC seem to have gotten an imprimatur from the house finance committee that's that's a significant step and i had argued that such crisis situations always produce new ideas and acceptance more importantly acceptance of new ideas that will live on long after the corona virus has burned through the world so that's why this e-tele project is important i'm going to pause the share here and i'm going to bring up a new new document but before that does anybody else have anything to say about this hi vith and jim just quickly um the there was a good article i'll post it in the chat but it was an interesting series of points the author was arguing why do we need a digital currency when we already have one uh in the u.s specifically and so um it's it doesn't say that you don't need one what it is is you go through the points you realize um and it makes you think differently about concepts of like a central bank digital currency here in the u.s specifically so i'll just post the link in the chat for reference a lot of people talk a lot of stuff about this uh without truly understanding what a central bank digital currency is i argue that there is no digital currency issued by the central bank today okay uh i don't i don't know what this person says but digital currency is there certainly but it is issued by the regular banks meaning it's a deposit you all your deposits are digital all the credit card transactions you do are digital you don't hand anybody fiat currency but it always comes with an intermediary and that's where the counterparty risk is tremendous right because the digital cash sitting in your account is protected by uh fdic only up to a certain amount right uh and so what is standing in the back of all of this and it's tied to a bank if if the bank goes bankrupt but the fdic has to move your um currency to some some other bank uh and i don't know how it how it works how they give you that money the bank goes bankrupt um you're right about it i used to know an fdic regulator that actually was he was the guy that would close down a bank and you're right about the process that you wind up in a sense taking the accounts that exist you pick them up literally and wind up in a sense ultimately moving into another bank but only for the amount max amount of what's insured for individual in that yeah so the difference with the cbdc is that it is not any of those things right it's in the end it's uh backed just like a dollar is by the by the central bank wherever it is um so the backing actually doesn't change i think the mechanics do though you're correct i would agree with you very much on the idea that it's not just the mechanics it is the fact that if you're holding it in your wallet there is no nothing standing between you and the central bank guarantee like in a regular dollar of course you can say the central bank can go under the in in which case of course you're right that's a very low risk obviously but the the other point lower than a bank going under or lower than anything else so anyway let's not argue about this here because i think many people are misinformed about this and they make all kinds of arguments about why we have digital cash today and why we shouldn't have a cbdc the point is that many many countries are going for it and they can't all be misinformed or you know obviously they know more than the guy who wrote that article right that that's all i'm saying yeah what do you want to say right my only point is i'm not trying to say digital currencies aren't a good thing he was saying fundamentally that you have a lot of the aspects of that in m2 today that's all and to your point there are some advantages but most of it has to do with in a sense streamlining what i call the current banking system and payment systems big time which are not necessarily all that efficient to your point yeah i mean if you go ahead bobby just when you were talking bit when you said something about um this current crisis and trying to get thousands of dollars to all people and how those of us who are aware of the technology think that you know the digital wallet is a great idea for transferring value but it's also just something that popped into my head while you were talking um i know in new york when they had that big apps blockchain challenge that one of the things that they were striving for was to have that digital wallet um be able to alert people for not only um money but services that there are available to them that they might not know of so that that wallet isn't just the idea you know apart from the central currency the wallet itself has a powerful um repercussions also yeah i mean it's i mean these emergent uses is is you know they are important but in the end okay let's let's uh i mean we can go on forever for talking about all this stuff but let's talk about something concrete like you know what what are we doing uh you know we're not going to uh we're not going to settle these arguments today obviously so i would like to move the conversation on to what what we are doing and we'll tell you uh you know what we have done so far and what challenges we are facing so money is going to talk a little bit i think since he's gotten off mute um and then we go on to the slides that i had prepared or slide that i had prepared money you want to say anything or yeah before we do that can you show us the the ttf work you have done so that yes that that's exactly what i'm going to do in the slides okay what did you do then then we can use that as a basis for you know what are we trying to achieve yeah um so you know most of the slide in the beginning of the slides are about um uh you know the if you if you go to the um to the meeting agenda you'll see that there is a link to slides in the project and uh that's what i want to show right now okay so i'm going to share again the screen am i sharing that no that's not good i'm going to stop and make sure that i'm sharing the right screen i've got 200 tabs open so you know it's crazy but you're right the slide that comes right off your meeting notes right now so that's easy for everybody to grab it from there okay so you know i'm not going to talk about um what the rationale for the definition is and ttf uh methods you know the abstraction layers of the ttf the the team at least the people who are registered as the team and the workshop flow and what our token is and why we chose that name the two choices are either it's a retail token or retail cbdc or it is a wholesale cbdc so the difference is that retail cbdc is just like cash is available to everybody can be held in a wallet obviously it's a two-tier system just like in what the chinese are saying which is basically that we are going to have the central bank issue the currency and the currency will be a distributor just like cash through the uh through the customer facing interface which is that which is the uh regular banks so that imposes an additional layer and also keeps the banking system just the way it is today with the deposits in the bank being possible to be converted to cbdc and back the other is the wholesale cbdc which means it's available only to the participants uh or institutions with fed accounts and with uh secondary regulated institutions so that it can be used to do uh settlement between them instead of uh around tripping to the fed uh to adjust the reserves which is how it is done today that means if city bank wants to transfer money to jp morgan they have to go to the fed saying transfer my reserve to jp morgan uh in this case the settlement can happen between jp morgan and uh city without involving uh without involving the fed obviously that means that the you know if city bank has to pay the fed they got a hold that much in cbdc in their institutional wallet which is what it means um and we had a debate and what should we do and all that but in the end let's see we are saying that we are looking at the uh the way in which the ttf goes from the formula to the implementation in bezu and i see that dano is here so obviously he can contribute and money has been working hard on that part and he can say what he has done so far with 1155 but before that i have to say that i created the formula inside the ttf i mean ee a token taxonomy framework github which is private at the moment and they did allow me access to it so the formula is very simple let's let's go for the formula i mean it looks complicated but it's not and here bobby is the business description of it and the business example so it first starts off with this it's called a fungible token right tf somebody is posted something on chat i can't look at it right now if if you want to say what it is i'd be glad to take a look at it tf is a fungible token okay so what does a fungible token mean fungible just means that there is no specificity to the token that means it's not like a diamond or a house but it's like a dollar in other words one dollar equals another one physical dollar could be substituted by another physical dollar that way it's fungible there is no taint that means you cannot say okay you cannot exchange this because it has come from some bad source but we make sure that it doesn't come from a bad source with some other behaviors which we will talk about in a minute and it's variable supply which means that it's not a fixed supply like an ICO type supply which is issued using an ERC 20 or something so the supply can vary according to the Fed's control of the monetary policy and in today the function is split between the Fed and the US Treasury the minting of the of the currency happens under the control of the Treasury but the supply is controlled in other words you can also withdraw money from the supply but that very rarely happens a physical dollars are burnt but sometimes more are printed to replace them and that that's it depends on physical deterioration not on anything else but in this CBDC we consider that you know basically the token can be minted or it can be burned right it is fractional which means that it is not a whole token but it can be divided into either decimals or I mean decimals you can set up to four decimal points maybe we should just like in Bitcoin you know it's a Satoshi is up to nine I think nine decimal points but we say that we can probably set it to four if we need to make real micro payments and they are also so if we have the D which is the dividable token and then we have the T which is obviously the transferable behavior and then we have I'll skip over the P for now and I'll go to C which is compliant so that means the burning and the mint operation check compliance transferring also can check some kind of a compliance regulation transferring in this case according to FATF regulations only amounts greater than 1000 needs to have a KYC AML check so we could bake that into the transfer protocol that a compliance kicks in when the transfer amount is greater than 1000 but in this case we are modeling starting to model a wholesale CBDC you know that that may not require such a heavy compliance because the institutions are regulated but it might require some kind of you know further look into this into the transfer operation the amounts the other is possible but you know most most of the time these kind of compliance operations can strike at the heart of fungibility because if you decide that some transfer is illegal and hence the tokens that are received as a result of that now become tainted for some reason and so it challenges that notion of fungibility then we have possible which is the P that we just skipped over possible is for possible freezing of movement and all other operations because of discovered bugs or upgrade of the infrastructure so you can pause and then you can resume a particular account or a set of tokens then we have this thing called sc which is nothing but supply control which which means mintable and burnable now the formula here is depicted like this but in the end inside the TTF it is a JSON file with which I've created and as far as my efforts there I have built and run the token token service I mean taxonomy service and the TTF printer and I've checked that my JSON works because the TTF printer is able to parse that JSON document and come out with no errors so as far as that goes that's already there now I'm going to I was going to delve into the into the interfaces that each of these need implementation of interfaces each of those behaviors the behavior developer needs an interface transferable needs an interface and possible compliant and so on so that is still in the works I've just started a page to do that but I'm working to get that detailed out but luckily for me the TTF already says what those behaviors need to implement as far as interfaces go and that's that's where I want to stop my you know what I've done so far I'm facing the final challenge here with the TTF because I have to use all of these JSON files then to create user readable documents that detail every one of these things out which means the use case now gets transformed from a business use case into a specification functional specification for implementation now I'll let money talk about the other end of things which is the 1155 end of stuff and I'm going to stop my share um do you have the PDF file generated or not yet no I'm facing problems doing that I'm in constant contact with Marley and I got very far yesterday with respect to running the service and the printer which are absolutely necessary for generating the PDF files and I hope to have them completed sometime this week and obviously I've had many distractions as we have all had so that's that's where I stand but I have a fairly good idea of what needs to be done you know it's getting clearer and clearer of what needs to be done maybe about 10 functions and I don't I didn't talk about roles the intersection of roles with this but the roles are important because for example for mintable only the central bank or its agents can mint the token no one else can and so is it with burn burnable only those people can burn for transferable it can only happen between uh parties at this time in the wholesale system between the parties that are so identity enters has to enter at the early stage so I was at the apology global forum and I was listening to a talk from the LAI the legal entity identity group the global legal entity identity foundation those guys that had implemented using indie or you know the earlier forms of indie an organizational wallet that went from the LAI which is enterprise focused to role focused that means if the Fed has someone called as chief mint officer that chief mint officer is delegated that responsibility of minting maybe it needs to sign off by someone else and that chief uh mint officer uh officer's boss or his checker will have that role so all of those roles had you know they had uh uh created a POC with the organizational wallet that goes from the institution to the actual roles uh and I had started to talk to them about this because it would be a great idea to integrate that role role stuff into the uh ethala project so that we have end to end and I think money will talk about how the foreign of the process the ethala project will help the other side which is asset transfers and settlement are you going to say anything about that money yeah sure um you know picking it up from uh what the within had discussed uh the focus of the initial phase who is to build a basic uh infrastructure uh so token could be issued by the central bank and you authorize part in this case uh commercial banks um um can transfer these tokens amongst themselves um but you know there's a larger focus this could also be eventually be involved into retail functions and and also uh in order to create a standard uh on the on the contact side such that um this could be eventually be you know expanded into a commercial bank issuing uh limiting and issuing their own tokens as well although that's not the focus here but we wanted to keep all of this into consideration so we started looking at saying what standard could be applied what network to be used and since this is our initial implementation is you know enterprise I want to interrupt there for a moment yeah the retail token will not be issued by the commercial banks commercial banks will just be a conduit for them no no I'm not I'm not I don't get at this point it just said that eventually this project could be extended to cover retail functions how it's going to be implemented that we will also you know look at later on um so with that in mind we looked at all the infrastructure and we decided okay to be really useful we could use more of enterprise related platforms so we decided that we could we would use the Appalachian Basics with the privacy feature in the operators so that that would be our base for implementing the token um then with the token standard itself we'll be looking at 20 uh 17 years and we felt that yes 1155 is being a newer or later standard it's a lot more useful for one uh a lot of these functions uh 1155 is out of a super sex with 20 and also um a lot of these pdf related functions that already exist and so we really felt that that would be useful and second thing is that is even for our own purposes of our exchanging if there are multiple standard banks are included in the series on a network then the 1155 would be one contract could be used um the series multiple multiple currencies or multiple tokens or you want to pull that so uh compared in year 20 where every every token needs a different contract and that contact has to go through a whole approval process and you know implemented um I mean we need the whole uh infrastructure support 1155 once it is readed through and approved then that contract could be used to use uh any number of different types of tokens um so that that's the useful not only for some of the bank tokens but also as I said with the commercial bank they want to pick it up and then their own network using their own tokens yeah we need to do the same infrastructure uh we use open zeppelin very early uh implementation or whatever their all-purpose implementation of 1155 we've taken that and we extended out and built an each hour each hour token um we used couple and initially we used the NAS to test it out and now we are deploying it on the on a four node uh base two uh private network uh our intention is uh to in the next two weeks uh start putting it out and put it into open source uh infrastructure so others others can take it up and and test out amongst themselves and also uh we would open up a test network for others to test it out so that's a very high level of what we are trying to accomplish obviously our first cut is to be very focused uh one currency one simple bank couple of commercial banks being authorized to transfer the token and you know as living comes up with the more very refined functions we would start at that point but this is a very distaste of it uh our intention is to come up with the first cut of testing in couple of weeks can you also connect it to the uh asset side of things the value transfer of uh and settlement um I mean that's you know once you once you have the basis of a a a a central bank digital currency or tablecoin then this is interesting as I said that this network of this infrastructure could also be used by banks to see their own token and hence the those tokens could then be settled using the cdbc token so you really can create an ecosystem uh for parties to uh really settle whether it is a real-time graph a real archived a real-time graph settlement basis or a net basis and that's another advantage to which we are to learn to provide this which is if you are going to do on a net basis there's the possibility that a set of tokens are exchanged simultaneously at the same time which is another advantage of the year to 1155 so you know from and from if you really look at the enterprise level banks when they settle they're settling a lot of assets simultaneously and this helps them instead of doing one asset at a time you could then settle multiple assets in one one contact on the day so were you now talking about you know something like let's say that if you if you have a swap or a derivative quick question now might or might say that not able to hear is everyone able to hear so far they had any questions yeah that's the other thing i mean right now we can we can open it open up the floor for questions about any aspect of all this stuff do you guys have any questions hi bippin it's bobby when you were referring to let me just go back in my notes for a second um you were saying you need interfaces for all of those those variables um are you collecting data points and information that would help develop what that flow for that would look like or is that what you need help with no we you know the the ttf standard states clearly what each of those behaviors in order to implement each of those behaviors uh like transferable you need to be able to say send token and receive token right i mean or something like that uh or send token uh for possible you need to say pause all tokens and then you need to be able to say assume uh so those behaviors are well defined in the ttf and the governance of those behaviors it's not the governance i mean it is in order to implement this behavior you've got to implement this interface right that that's what it means so money money currently has implemented the 1155 uh stuff but we will need to implement these interfaces as well thank you anything else anybody else wants to ask questions sorry one one quick clarification so uh when money talked about he you know he mentioned his hyperledger besu right as a platform yes um any specific reasons for picking up i i know that it's an ethereum client and uh you know as far as the tokens is concerned that's the most stable uh you know are there any other reasons for picking uh besu i let money answer that one um the main reason you say if you wanted to have an enterprise um standard um uh network that that's why you so it does not prevent you you know to implement on any other uh hyperledger fabric or any other you know block you know tlp uh we had just one and we felt that because this is again it goes hand in hand with the ttf definition uh that's also written in an enterprise decision standard so uh for demonstration purposes it makes a lot of sense uh that you use an enterprise to do an infrastructure to implement and and demonstrate and once you publish it you know uh anyone can take these and you know adopt other platforms okay um bippin one jim one question um in for wherever you are now at this point in testing anything have you determined what a transaction time would be no no no we're far away from all that so do you sorry i'll back it up then do you have a goal for that for what a transaction time would be uh no i mean you know it obviously uh there were several models sketched out one of them would be that uh the wallets would be separate from the uh blockchain um you know uh there was a model sketched out by the consensus guys the and the transaction times would be almost instantaneous uh in that in that not on the blockchain then right well yeah i mean but the blockchain is taken as the uh you know as the system of record and uh the anchor basically i mean which is which is the direction in which yeah so in your model it's not part of what i call the instant transaction then it is i mean we haven't uh look all we are saying is we have to implement these interfaces those are contracts the implementation details uh you know that's why we are building in uh besu and then we'll see what you know how we can separate uh and look first of all the creation of a digital wallet especially something that like what bobby was suggesting is a non-trivial task you know it's it's going to take a long time to develop a very secure digital wallet it is a very significant piece of work uh our intention right our intention is not to focus on the uh on like uh deliverables like a transaction time at this point obviously it has to be usable i mean you can't make a payment to a coffee shop of two dollars and then wait for you know 20 minutes hanging out in the coffee shop especially today you got to get out of there fast so yeah you know these will enter the picture and uh most likely it will be a layer two solution uh in fact in the uh in the consensus paper on cbdc there were four layers so yeah that's the point so arch it so you're right so it would help conceptually i think to just um i'll call it visually define the layers you logically expect it doesn't mean that they'll stay that way because you're right your implementation could change everything as you move forward but at least up front to say hey here's the visual layers we expect to be using and how they would work and then only other thing i'll say is it seems reasonable is wallets like real wallets in real life don't hold a lot right they hold a limited amount of things they hold some identities they may hold some in a sense uh aqua currencies of different types let's say but in a sense most of your assets the same thing for the company aren't sitting in any wallet right so it's a multi-tiered system in effect you wind up with where the actual assets are the representation of those assets is held somewhere else the wallet is only holding in a sense what you're expecting to use in someone the amount of time and the general reason for that is the security of a wallet it's not as good as what i call some other store that is i'll call it more secure right so architecturally in a sense i'm thinking we have an application that runs using um wallets erc 20 wallets but they're limited in terms of what you're going to put into the wallet so you're moving assets from some other place into the wallet in our case the network has um we didn't use um yeah but jim let me let me uh let me cut short that for a minute uh what i'm saying is we don't need to be constrained by actual physical wallet structure today especially if the wallets uh gain in strength and uh security so we don't know what the emergent effects of wallets could be the physical wallet has a as a limitation it you know you can't hold a million dollars in your wallet but an organizational wallet could hold potentially millions of dollars uh or even you know it's frictionless to hold a trillion dollars in a wallet today you cannot do it you cannot do it in its physical currency right so it would help also if you listed the assumptions at the front end of how you see this thing working because you're what you just define it's an assumption that a wallet can be 100 secure all the time and that no no no nothing is going to be 100 secure all the time but is there a way of recovering is there a way of saying yeah you know there was a problem with the wallet and it's going to happen over time just like anything else you know it may not write off with the bank start off with the bank with wallet holding a trillion dollars but over time you know it may end up i mean the the fed is holding reserves of trillions of dollars right how do they do it they're doing it in the digital digital way there's no physical cash held in the fed correct they obviously are very secure they're very sure that that stuff is not going to be uh hackable by just tom dick and harry right i mean right that so already we have examples of that of right so digital currency being held by institutions that amount amount to trillions so right so to clarify it's not really a wallet it's a wallet system that you're talking about then well i mean you know what is a wallet you know you're we are we don't have to have physical analogies for everything uh and we shouldn't have a point so there's a difference right all i'm arguing is it helps because i've got the same problem the stuff we're doing is it helps to clarify by separating the logical concepts as you say from the implementation concepts and the implementation to your point can certainly vary over time but i've got we all have the same problem so grabbing an erc20 wallet and fabric or something and creating a wallet and dumping tokens and identities into it that's mechanical and that's a physical implementation of something but to your point it helps to define logically separately what you're trying to look at as concepts with the idea that the implementation can vary that's my only point all right thank you so i think we are at time unless you guys have something else to talk a lot we always you know Karen actually we do sometimes continue over if there is uh uh you know we are not backing into somebody else um anyway so there you go um if you have anything else to add let it be the let it be the time now and we're gonna close the call soon this is michael speaking um i just wanted to uh drop my email here in the um the group chat uh i'm connected with almost anybody everybody here um and have had some great conversations with you all over the years that there are a couple people um who i don't know um and if you would ever like to chat i'm happy to speak on background as i am always learning um but also of course if you have any developments you wanted to share on the record that i'm here as well uh thank you guys all so much for your work and for uh doing this in such an open and transparent way i think it's important not only to me as a reporter but to the world so uh thank you so much thank you uh for those kind words natalia sorry uh this is one more of those days where uh where the time is against you or conception of it sorry i made i thought i made it clear but anyway uh we're gonna call close the call thank you thanks