 Good afternoon everybody, happy new year and welcome back to our lunchtime Webinar Express series. We've got some great webinars lined up for 2023 and we'll be kicking off a series today with Rob Gray, co-founder and strategy partner at Creative Brand Agency Squad. If you've watched any of our Webinar Express sessions before, then you'll know how this works. But for those joining us for the first time today, I'll very quickly give you some info on how today's webinar will run. Here you can submit your questions for the Q&A and where to go if you want to watch the session again. So I'll be hearing from Rob for around 30 to 35 minutes. We'll then move into a 10 to 15 minute Q&A session to answer some of your questions. You'll be able to post your questions for the Q&A anytime during the session by clicking on the question mark you'll see on screen. We've circled the mark for you depending on which device you're watching from. So if you're watching on a laptop, you'll find the question mark on the right-hand side of your screen or along the top or bottom if watching on a tablet or smartphone. Rob has very kindly agreed for his presentation slides to be available to download whilst we're broadcasting. So if you pop into the handout section, which looks like a memo icon with the top edge folded over, you'll be able to download them from there. If you want to watch the session again, it'll be available on the CIM YouTube channel. Just head into the Webinar Express playlist and you'll find it listed there. You'll find the entire back catalog of our Express series with sessions covering a broad range of marketing skills and insights all free to access and available whenever you want. So do take a look as we've had some great sessions with fascinating insights from our speakers. If you'd like to share any thoughts about today's webinar on the socials, you can use the hashtag CIM events. We'd love to see your comments on Twitter, Instagram or LinkedIn, so we'll pop the hashtag up again when we get to the Q&A. And finally, if you're a university student attending today's webinar, then you may want to sign up to the CIM Marketing Club. All you need to do is hover your camera over the QR code and that will take you straight through to the sign up page. Alternatively, you can hop onto our website and find it within the qualifications drop-down menu. It'll keep you up to date with the latest trends, innovations and concepts in the marketing industry, so it really is worth taking a look and signing up. Okay, I'd now like to introduce our guest speaker for today, Rob Gray. If you want to turn your webcam on, Rob, I'll pass things over to you and the floor is yours when you're ready. Cool. Thank you, Phil. Hopefully you can all see and hear me now. There we go. Okay. So today I'm going to talk about how to give brands an unstoppable momentum and really drive their growth and specifically I'm going to talk about the importance of their position and the way you position them in doing that. So the context and squad and where I'm coming from squad essentially helps clients go from their vision as a brand into the execution. So we work at a strategic level with companies on their boardroom strategy for their brand and then we help them translate that into their creative output. That could be advertising, it could be branding, it could be internal communications, product design, culture, lots of different areas. And a key part of what we do is connecting strategy and strategists with creative and creatives. That's a big part of our process and that's a kind of theme that you're going to hear coming through what I'm going to talk about today. So over the last 10 years or so that squad's been going, we've worked with a huge number of clients and a lot of the thinking I'm going to be sharing with you today is based on the things we've learned during that time. So I'm going to share some theory around brands and position and how to drive their growth. I'm going to share some of the tools and practices we use and that have worked well for us and the particular kind of methods we have at squad. I'll also share examples from our own work and also from well-known brands to try and illustrate some of the points that I'm going to be talking about today. So hopefully you'll leave the session with some practical tools and thinking that you can take away and start applying to your own brand. So let's start with a definition of what is a brand. So we're all on the same page in terms of what we're talking about. I really like this definition from Jeff Bezos, founder of Amazon. Your brand is what other people say about you when you're not in the room. For me, that captures the kind of really important quality of a brand that is an impression, an image, a reputation that exists in someone else's head. It's not something that you control directly. It's not your logo, your advertising, your communications, your design, any of that things, although those all influence your brand. It's the perception that exists in someone's head. And why is that important? Well, in my experience, that perception, that brand drives choice. It drives the choice someone makes whether they want to buy your brand. It drives their choice, whether they're going to recommend your brand to others. It drives, from an internal point of view, their choice as to whether they want to come and work for you, whether they want to work hard for your brand. So that perception influences choice. And often it's very small perceptions that can have a really big impact on someone's choice. We make big decisions based on a lot of gut instinct. So brand can be very influential over choice. And in terms of how that drives growth and profit for business, obviously the more people choosing to buy the brand, to work for the brand, the more that drives growth, the more people doing that, the more profit the business will make at an absolute level. But also the degree to which people want to choose the brand, the level of desire to choose the brand over other options affects the amount they're willing to pay. So more people paying more money obviously drives up profit as well. So that's the link between how brands drive growth and profit for brands. So let's kind of unpack that a bit and start to look at, well, okay, how do we create a brand like that? How do we create a brand with real energy and momentum and drive? I'm going to test the technology here, test the limits of the technology by trying to kind of have a little interactive game. I often play this when I'm doing these kind of sessions in person. So we're going to try and see if we can recreate it online. So I'm going to show you a few examples of brands and what I'd like you to do within the questions box that you should be able to see on your interface is just type in what springs to mind when I show these brands. So let's try the first one, IKEA. Okay, great. So we're seeing some things pop up there, DIY minimalism, Scandi minimalism, flat pack, choice, Sweden, Swedish design, cheap furniture, self assembly, meatballs, always get meatballs with this one. Yeah, arrows and meatballs. Okay, great. Lots of good stuff there. So, okay, a lot of people talk about flat packs, Swedish, Swedish design, minimalist furniture and lots of mentions of meatballs. Okay, let's try another one, Ryanair. Okay, so lots of things around cheap flights, budget, blue and yellow, cheap, cheap budget, lots of cheap budgets, low cost, etc. Yeah, also mentions of poor service, low quality coming through, get what you pay for, cheap no frills. Okay, last one, to try Patagonia. Okay, sustainable, idealistic, outdoors, ethical, purpose beyond profit, earth, responsible, sustainable. Okay, adventure outdoors, lots of things around that. Okay, great. So I think what that illustrates is the essential quality of a really strong brand is that it has a really defined image about what it stands for that's different to what other brands stand for. And I think those examples illustrate that really well that as soon as I kind of show those brands, immediately you've got kind of an image of what that brand stands for and actually remarkably similar, lots of people all kind of saying similar things when we were going through those brands. So that's the kind of key quality of why it drives a kind of brand success, that clarity of position and its ability to convey that position over all the things it does as a brand. In terms of how starting to kind of unpack how you do that, how do you build a strong position like that in people's minds? I think it's important to understand there's two sides to this, which we call position in the market and position in the mind. So position in the market is about the reality of what your brand does, what does it offer, what's its product, its service, and this goes to the heart of a brand's business strategy. The other side is position in the mind, so that's about the perception you create of your brand and what it stands for through its design, through its communication, through its advertising, through its marketing, through those kind of things. And both of those kind of sides to a brand are really important and will ultimately kind of drive the position it has. I'm going to show you an example to kind of illustrate those two sides and the importance of them both. And this is a brand called Oatly, Oat Milk that you may well have come across. It was invented by researchers at the University of London in the 1990s who discovered a way to extract milk from oats. So that gave them the basis of a really strong differentiated position in the market. All of the milk products were primarily from cows. They've created a milk that comes from oats. So it's rationally different in the market and provides a lot of focus to what they're doing internally in terms of the kind of focus of the business. But for many years, they just kind of bumbled along, not really growing particularly massively. You know, this, as I say, this kind of product was invented in the 1990s. And part of the problem is it looked like that. It looked like it had been, was the product of some university academics who'd kind of researched and discovered this. It wasn't really connecting with urban millennials who had the kind of potential to be its audience and this product to really connect with. So in 2012, they made a big change. They brought in a new creative director who together with the CEO really overhauled the brand starting with identifying what it stood for. What was its purpose as a brand? And that led to a big overhaul of the packaging, of the communications, of the brand personality, of everything that kind of the brand was doing. And the purpose was all around this idea of what they call post milk generation. So this idea of a plant-based society, a plant-based diet and the health benefits of that and the environmental benefits of that. And that gave them something else beyond the rational differentiation that being out milk had given them. It gave them an emotional connection in people's minds. It created a bond between them and their customers. And that's what really kind of then started to ignite the growth of the brand because it was connecting with people more. They were talking to their friends more about it. They wanted to buy it more. There were more loyal to it. People wanted to work for it. So the brand suddenly ignited its growth. Go back one if we can. Bit trigger happy there. Within a few years of relaunching, they doubled their revenues to about $41 million within a year of relaunching in 2016. The brand now, six years on from that, turns over about $421 million. So it's gone from $41 million to $421 million in a period of six or seven years since this kind of change. So that really kind of emphasized the importance of having a position in the mind on top of a position in the market. We will click on now. There we go. I think this is a good example of where brands go wrong though and why that can be a challenge. This is an advert for Hyundai, which says life is not about spending time. It's about time well spent. Hyundai is reimagining time for the future of the future that will connect people with quality time. It's a future reimagined for us. And last time I checked Hyundai made cars. I'm not sure what that kind of position as a brand has to do with cars, what it has to do with the reality of what they actually make and what they actually sell. And this is where brands often struggle and come a cropper and they kind of fail to be authentic because the brand position they're trying to create in the mind isn't connecting with the reality of what they're doing in the market. And this is a key thing for igniting the growth of a brand and when you think about how to position your brand, you need to think about the kind of rational, its rational position in the market but also its emotional position in the mind and crucially that those two things connect so that the brand comes across as authentic. A lot of those brands I showed you earlier do this well and they come across as very authentic brands that really connect with people. The other crucial thing is getting the alignment right across everything the brand does. These days there's so many different touch points that brands have with their audiences. Every kind of point of interaction on numerous digital channels is an opportunity to connect and say something about the brand and strong brands manage to align everything they're doing. Every kind of touch point they have with people behind conveying that position and getting that position across. When they do, they start to create a real momentum and energy because everything people see in here is reinforcing and feeding off other things people have seen there to kind of create this virtuous cycle of energy and momentum and growth. Where brands often come across is actually they don't manage to drive that through the brand they don't manage to get that coherence across everything the brand is doing and saying. I'll give you an example of that. M&S have for a long time focused on their CSR position, environmental position. They call it Plan A because there's no Plan B. You see it emblazoned across staff t-shirts. You see it emblazoned across lorries driving up and down the motorway. They've done some fantastic work and they've really kind of established this reputation for themselves through everything they've done. But then in another area of the business someone's kind of decided to give away a promotion to kids on free plastic toys. And then because the brand set itself up as having this position, the press grab hold of it and kind of call them out for it and then that kind of undermines everything they've tried to do on the other side. So it is challenging in big businesses particularly in big businesses to get that alignment across everything the brand is doing and saying but that's crucial in order to really ignite growth and drive the brand's momentum. And that's often one of the crucial things that successful brands manage to do is create that coherence and alignment across everything they do. And in our experience, why brands are able to do that, why they can do it well is when they do what we call position from the inside out. When they manage to, at the leadership level have a really strong sense of what the brand stands for, what its position is. And they manage to drive that across everything the brand's doing and saying and all it's kind of creative out, but it's advertising, it's communications, it's design, it's marketing, et cetera, as well as internally it's culture. And I'm going to give you a few examples of brands who've done this well, I think to kind of give you a bit more insight around how they do it. The first is well-known brand, you might well have come across called Apple, talked about a lot because it's the most, one of the top most valuable and successful brands in the world, but I think this video is interesting because it gives you a glimpse under the bonnet. This is a staff meeting that Steve Jobs held when he returned to Apple in 1997 and set about revamping it before the iPod, before the iPad, before the iPhone, before any of this stuff. This was the kind of the start of it. And it's Steve Jobs talking about a new advertising campaign they're about to launch and I think the way he talks about this, you can really start to kind of get a sense of that connection in terms of his definition, articulation of what the brand stands for and then his driving that through into all their kind of brand activity. So we're going to test the technology a bit here and I can't actually play this. So I'm going to ask you to just take that link, which I think should pop up on your interface now or you can just copy that and punch that into your browser and then you should be able to watch that clip and then we'll resume in a couple of minutes when you've all had a chance to watch that. A couple more examples I think are interesting of brands that really kind of push that position from the top across that everything they do. Patagonia brand we looked at earlier but their founder wrote a book that my people go surfing and I think this is interesting because of the depth he goes to when he talks about their kind of environmental sustainable positioning as an outdoor clothing brand but how he drove that across, how there's a leadership team drove that across everything they do and he talks at length in this book about product design initiatives, HR initiatives, marketing initiatives, finance initiatives, operations initiative, manufacturing, all these kind of different areas and you get a really strong sense of how that position drove everything they do and really came to life across the brand. Another one that's interesting in a slightly different way is this brand. I don't know whether anyone's recognises who this is but this is the first iteration of Starbucks. It came about when Howard Schultz the founder went to Italy and he saw over there the importance of coffee within the culture. He saw how coffee shops were almost like a third place between home and work for people where they all stopped each morning for their morning espresso. He saw the quality of the coffee that was available in stark contrast to a lot of the instant coffee that was drunk in America at the time and he brought that idea back to the States and he launched a coffee chain and called it Il Gionale after Italian newspaper. He had waiters in little pinnies like in Italy. The coffee was served on bars in little porcelain espresso cups but over time this kind of vision changed and adapted to the American market and of course most notably the name changed but that kind of vision of creating this new place, this third place and offering this quality coffee stayed true and was kind of the driving force for how they've developed a brand. So I think those are all kind of interesting good examples of brands who've really kind of articulated that position at the top and then driven across everything they do. What we find when working with brands to do that is the importance of the way you approach the strategic process and the creative process not viewing them as two separate things in a linear process where the strategy is done and a kind of PowerPoint presentation is created and then that's handed over to the creative teams to implement and take forward into advertising or communications or whatever it may be but instead viewing those two things as an iterative collaborative process so that creators are involved in the strategic development thinking about the execution of it thinking about how you can bring that strategy to life and then the strategies are involved as you move through making sure the creative work that's produced connects with that position you're trying to build. And we have a framework and method we use to help clients do that at Squad which is what I'll share with you now. We call it the position power program because of the kind of energy and momentum it unlocks in brands as you move through this process and hopefully this is useful if any of you are thinking about your own brands and how to develop your own positions. The starting point is defining the position you want to build and there's lots of different kind of models available lots of different people talking about visions and missions and values and whys and narratives and big ideas and all this kind of thing but essentially a lot of these kind of things are based on similar principles and in our experience there's three core things three core questions you need to answer to articulate and define your position. So I'll lag on the change here hopefully the slide is going to change in a second. There we go. So first question is what's the space you operate in? This is about defining your place and really it's about two core questions. What are you going to offer? What's your products and service you're going to offer? How is that different to others? Is it going to be cheaper, more expensive? Is it better designed? Is there some unique invention that you've come across like the example of oat milk versus cow's milk and what's the audience you're going to offer that to? And those two things kind of affect the core of your brand's position in the market. It's differentiation. If your offer is different or if your audience is different or both are different then you've got the basis of a strong differentiated position for the brand. The second thing once you've done that is to start and think about what's the kind of narrative we're going to build around this brand? What's the story we're going to tell across it? And I think this is an interesting example of that as political campaigns often are because they have to talk about so many different subjects. This is some images from Barack Obama's landslide election victory in the States in 2008 where he went on this position of change and had this story about change and hope, this narrative he went through everything. And when he was talking about economy or welfare or health or crime or global politics it was all presented through this lens of change and that was what he boiled everything down to and brought everything back to. And over time he kind of established that position for himself and ultimately succeeded in winning the election. And that's the role a position needs to play for a brand is providing that story, that narrative that's going to run through everything. And so the way we think about making that leap between the place and that narrative is by finding your purpose. Why does the brand exist and what is that kind of core story we're going to tell? So the way we work with brands to find this is to think about what is the passion inside the business? Why does it feel passionate about that offer that it's presenting to the market? But equally then looking externally what does the audience really desire? Why do they really want what's being offered here? And if you find that sweet spot in the middle where you've got the passion that the brand has with the desire of the audience that's kind of the crux of the purpose why it exists and that's the basis of the brand's narrative. But then the third element which is really crucial is about the personality. So how are you actually going to articulate that in a way that's going to move people? And I think this is a good example of that difference between purpose and personality. Both of these hitchhikers essentially say the same thing. I want to hitchhike somewhere and one says it in a very straight way to Manchester the other articulates it in a very motive way to Moms for Christmas. And that's the difference between purpose and personality. It's thinking about not just what you're saying but how are you going to articulate that in a compelling way that's going to move people to action. And when we do this with brands a good technique that we use is to write a manifesto. And this allows you to kind of find that personality play with words, imagery, language to find that kind of way of articulating it in a really compelling way. So this is a nice example for a small piece of work we did for a coffee chain in Manchester called Potcat Black. And they, the founders to former rugby players had gone off to Australia experienced Australian coffee culture and wanted to bring that back to the north of England. And so their position was all about Antipodean coffee culture but with a northern accent it was that play on the sonniness and positivity of Australia with the kind of dry wit and humour and grey skies of the north of England and Manchester and juxtaposing those two things. So if you read some of the words on that slide now you can get a sense of how that position started to come to life with personality through the language we used. And that then provides a great framework a great platform for thinking about how we're going to push that out across everything the brand does. Once you've done that so you've got your position you've articulated those three questions and you've got your manifesto it's then about how we're going to build that momentum of propulsion for the brand. And this is where you really kind of start to drive its growth and you kind of orientate everything the brand's doing across its different touch points and create that that coherence across it all. And these will vary depending on the type of brand you are different brands have different kind of touch points B2B, B2C, etc. But the principles are the same and broadly there's these different areas that you need to think about. So there's the branding visual and verbal identity there's the internal culture and how you embed that position internally through communications and behaviors internally how do you drive it through the brand's communications it's advertising it's social media and how do you drive that across its design whether that's environments and retail experiences websites and digital experiences packaging the kind of the things will vary but the principle of driving it through everything is the same. And then before we kind of wrap up I'm going to share an example of all that how all that comes together for a brand and show you that that process and that thinking action. So this is a brand we've worked with for a number of years called JWDs who are a Manchester based brewery and pop company family business sixth generation been around for 190 years and their CEO man called William Lees Jones sixth generation kind of the family came to us about six or seven years ago and and talked about how they looked then which you can see on the slide there and how they looked and felt quite old and stale and traditional and kind of like you might expect a sixth generation 190 year old kind of family brewing business to look and feel but at the same time you know he wanted to really re-imagise the business revitalise the business and create a new vision for the brand and overhaul it. So we set off on a journey together doing a lot of work with him and his board to go through that framework that I showed you a minute ago to think about first think about that position and we define that as modern traditional brewer and the thinking behind this was that brewing was really important to what they do but had kind of been lost that kind of been a focus on the pubs and the value of the pub estate and almost kind of thinking themselves more as a property company than a brewer but actually the brewery was what was really interesting it's what really connected with people internally with customers there's a real kind of resurgence in interest in craft beer and craft brewing so there was this kind of fantastic opportunity to make more of this brewery they've been brewing beer for 190 years we wanted to do that in a way that respected the tradition and heritage of the business they've got some fantastic stories of appearing in Coronation Street of Winston Churchill dining in their oak paneled brewery boardroom but we also wanted to do it in a way that was modern that reflected that pubs are changing they're evolving they're more kind of less spit and so does more family more food beer is changing craft the craft kind of beer revolution is kind of changing the way the kind of nature of brewing and beer so there's a massive opportunity to kind of re-energize as well so the position was about modern traditional brewery and putting the brewery at the heart of the business and then we started to think about okay that's the purpose but how do we articulate that with personality how do we bring that to life and much like I talked about kind of writing a manifesto another great way of doing this is to create a film I'm going to show you a film in a second that's the film we created for JD release you can produce these in a proper polished way and then they become kind of great communication tools for launching the position but equally you can produce them in a very kind of rough cut informal way just using iMovie or something like that just as a way to start to experiment and work out how is the kind of brand going to communicate what it stands for using words using pictures using imagery what so how's it going to feel how's it going to look and you can experiment with that in a very kind of rough cut way as well so again I'm going to send you off to watch a film that's on that link there and this is the position film we made for JD release and then we'll resume when you've all had a chance to watch that so having worked out what their position was we then moved on to that next stage of propulsion which I talked about and this was about driving it through the different areas of the brand so we started with internally their culture this was William their CEO a big company conference where the business came together and we talked about this new vision and direction for the brand and what it was going to mean for the kind of behaviors internally and the service and the experience and the pubs we then overhauled the identity creating a much stronger sense of JD release it's a family of beers there running through everything flexing from more traditional beers like bitter to more modern ones like NPA and the identity had that flex in it to look more traditional or modern depending on the beer in question but all with a kind of strong sense of JD release identity running through it that was then kind of pushed out across the business into the pubs collaboration brews with other breweries it fed their innovation so one of the things we identified was the need for a stronger lager range they had a lot of ales but their beer portfolio only had one lager in it so we developed and launched a new product called Manchester Craft Lager which were designed as a kind of premium lager to go up against foreign continental lagers other collaboration brews seasonal ranges so you can see this kind of drive to be that modern traditional breweries started to really come across in the design the branding, the communications but also through their innovation extending to creating and launching new micro brewery then out into communications and starting to think about how do we drive this out into our communications and promote our beers even within communications that aren't necessarily around beer making sure beer is prominent within them and then driving that out into the design of the pub experience so not just changing the exteriors and the identity of those and tying them back into the identity for the brand but also thinking about how does that position start to drive the customer experience within the pubs so bringing almost like a micro brewery experience into the pubs reflecting the uniqueness of JD with these pubs in that they are a company that still brews its own beer unlike most pub chains you go into in the UK today the pub chain itself won't be brewing its own beer they'll be buying it in they'll be white-laving someone else's beer so that connection between brewery and pub was really important we wanted to bring that to life through cues of hops and brewing that can take it into the interior design schemes so hopefully that gives you a flavour of how you kind of go on that that journey from articulating the position and defining that to then building the energy and propulsion around it that process was really transformative for JD with these and lots of other brands we've worked with if you want to play around with this yourself on your own brand then we have a number of tools available that URL which might be interesting things for you to play with particularly the calculator which is a self-assessment tool on our website where you can answer various questions about your own brand and depending on the answers of those it'll kind of spit out an assessment of the strength of your position and how well you building propulsion around that in different areas and give you an idea of the kind of areas you might want to focus on for developing your own brand we also publish newspaper every year that you can get if you visit that URL and punch your details in this contains lots of kind of thinking and playbooks and other content that we create around how helping brands position themselves and drive their growth around it so that might be another useful resource if you want to get a copy of that and sign up there and then last but not least feel free to connect with me on on social media mainly on LinkedIn tends to be what I use also be great if any of you want to drop me an email I'm always keen to hear feedback it's hard with these online webinar sessions to know what kind of response you're getting from people and how it's going down so if nothing else it tells me that people are at least still in the room and listening as I can't see you all connect with us as a business on all the usual platforms and our website there so hopefully that's useful I think we're now going to dive into some questions that we fill thanks very much Rob that was fantastic and we have actually run over it at the moment I'm nonetheless for those who are happy to hang on we're going to try and get through one or two questions for Rob Rob a couple of things around the film that you showed for Lees one was one of the biggest challenges is bringing the people within the brand along with you did you find any challenges with staff who were reluctant for JW Lees to modernize if so what did you do I think you always get some of that at the start of a project a big project like that I think you know crucial things are engagement when you develop that position at the start particularly around the leadership team the different heads of departments to making sure their kind of voices have been heard and they've inputted into the process so that's that's crucial and and then I think you you know once you start to communicate it out into the business you find that bringing it to life kind of painting a picture as it were really starts to create energy so in that JW Lees example when we had that conference we played that film we showed the new identity of the beers and the design of the beers that's what really started to kind of create a lot of energy and excitement for the business because they could see what it meant what impact it was going to have and how the brand was much more interesting much more exciting much more interesting so you know that really kind of helps that process so that engagement piece up front and then bringing it to life for people as you move through I think would be the key things great thanks Rob questions around B2B so one question was very between different sectors particularly B2B versus B2C and secondly does culture play a role in brand repositioning of the B2B business from inside out yeah so I think we've worked with a lot of B2B and B2C clients and the principles the process is exactly the same you know at the end of the day brand is still influential over people's choice in the B2B setting as that famous phrase no one ever got fired for buying IBM you know so perception of a brand drives choice in a B2B environment just as much as B2C and at the end of the day still dealing with people you know still selling to people marketing to people who are you know the same people who are buying a consumer products as a business product I think where it gets different is the execution so if you think about the kind of channels that drive drive the growth in a B2C environment it might be more advertising you know if you're Coca Cola or whatever soft drink you know the advertising that's going to be a crucial channel in a B2B context perhaps a professional services business accountant's lawyers whatever you know the it's going to be less about advertising it's going to be more about people so you know to your point about culture you know I think culture in a B2B setting is crucial because that's one of the key mechanisms for building the brand you know what people say when they're out and about at industry events and networking and on social media and those kind of things those are really kind of drive the brand position more than perhaps advertising in a B2C context so you've got to adapt the way you execute and deliver that position for the channels you're using but that that's probably the key difference you know the principles of the importance of position and how you develop that position and how you drive it from the inside out the same in both kind of environments really. Okay thanks Rob I think we've just got time for one more question although there's two on a similar theme here so best advice for building a brand from scratch and what would be the number one priority for a challenger brand in a sector with an overwhelming market leader? I think so should we take them separately the first one was about a startup yeah I mean I think for a startup you know position is really important because it's your story and you know at the start of a journey you're trying to get people in board whether that's your first customers or investors or whoever it may be that story you're telling through the way you're positioning the brand is critical for creating that initial kind of energy and kind of momentum and you know I'd focus much more on getting a compelling position and story than any kind of whizzy kind of graphics or anything like that you know that that's really important for a startup particularly when it's a founder telling that story and delivering that for themselves a lot of the time and you know a challenger brand I guess you know similar thing but you know up against a market leader you know really look at what is their position and how are you going to position differently I think is the crucial thing understanding what is going to be really compelling because if they're so dominant you're going to have to find that kind of niche that sweet spot that's going to really set your business apart from them in order to kind of draw people to you but if you do there's often a great challenge a great opportunity because with situations like that you've often got a lot of inertia and a lot of people are quite fed up with the dominant player but they just kind of need a compelling alternative so you can kind of tap into that okay great thank you very much Rob that was great unfortunately that is all the time we have for today's webinar so I'd just like to say thank you again to Rob for a fantastic presentation. Thank you Rob and to the C.I.M. Yorkshire group for organizing the webinar. We do hope you've enjoyed the session and found it interesting and worthwhile we'll be sending out a short survey about today's webinar and we'd love to hear your feedback it will only take a few minutes and all survey responses are anonymous so please let us know your thoughts and what you'd like to see from our Webinar Express series in the future. We'll be back with our next webinar on Wednesday the 15th of February with UK marketing manager for Hasubana, Sarah Bentham you'll find further details listed on the events page of our website where you can also register for the session so that just leads me to say a final thank you to you for joining us today and we hope you've enjoyed the webinar. Take care everyone and we look forward to seeing you again soon.