 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I am joined by Dave Goodman in Sydney, Australia Dave welcome to the show Thanks, bud. Nice to be here. Yeah, this has been a long time in the works I should say you're a drummer educator and clinician and you have a musicology PhD and your thesis was on the great Tony Williams Which is who we're here to talk about today Tony Williams is one of those people where as I was saying to you before we kind of started that like many drummers He's obviously a legend, but there's just something very special about him. He's he's an icon I mean, he's if there was like a Mount Rushmore, which obviously is a very American reference with the presidents all carved into it He would be up there On that note, why don't we jump in for the sake of time because we got a lot of stuff to cover And why don't you go ahead and take us back to the beginning of Tony's life? Great. Well, yes Let's start at the very beginning Tony Tony Williams was born in Chicago, Illinois on the 12th of December 1945 and When he was two his family moved to Boston and That's where he grew up and had all of his early musical experiences His father's name was Tillman and he was African-American and his mother's name was Alice one is now She was 14 when Tony was born So she she had apparently a lot of growing up to do very quickly at that time And now she was of Portuguese Chinese descent So I remember hearing Tony say in an interview once very proudly that he's of African-American Euro-Asian descent Wow, so very worldly guy there Man, that's young 14 Yeah, how about that? That's interesting because Tony has a certain kind of like facial like a structure like I didn't know actually his his heritage which obviously that that probably spoke to a lot a lot to his Musical influences to I would imagine which we'll probably hear about later. Oh, yeah I mean the music started very early in his in the household there in Boston, you know we're sort of talking post war times and His father was a saxophone player played club gigs on the weekend and that was really what would happen There were two sort of lines would happen He would take young Tony out to all those club gigs on the weekends and But in the household, they had a lot of records, you know So, you know dad's listening to Billy Eckstein Knacking Cole Louis Jordan, Sonny Stitt, Gene Ammons and the list goes on and mum was listening to Tchaikovsky and Wagner You know and it's interesting to note that like also around that time, you know LPs Started to be produced in 1948 Live recordings were first made in 1945, you know, but took them a while to sort of take hold Gosh, you know, I guess Jazz record sales doubled in 1957 So there was but it was still like a lot less than what Elvis Presley and pop artists were producing at that time you know, so there was a lot of music a lot of listening and He said that he was just drawn to the drums when he was a child and He decided he wasn't gonna be a saxophone player even after his father gave him the opportunity to play saxophone and he'd just sit in the audience at those gigs and You know, he thought, you know, he's looking at the drummers thinking if he can do that, you know I know I can do that and he said that's just something that you know Which is kind of cool. He had his natural aptitude for it. Yeah, that's fascinating. It's just like I'm sure you feel that way and and I feel that way where you're as just as a kid. You're drawn to the drums Mmm, when did he get a drum set? You know, when did that all start? Well, that that happened just a little bit later He I believe he was already playing by the time he got a set of drums. So it was 1956 that his dad bought him a radio king drum set and that had like a 28 inch or 30 inch bass drum 16 inch floor tom a snare and some 12 or 13 inch hi hats that had really large bells like a 9 inch bell and You know, I think I've seen a photo of young Tony at those drums It'd be really interesting for you one of your listeners to See if they can find those drums where they are these days. They must be in some museum somewhere surely. Oh my god That sounds very almost like trap Set ish that with those huge bass drums and everything But you said he was starting to play the drums a little bit before he actually had a drum set. Yeah, that's right so in about 1954 so a couple years before this he was eight and his father took him to a gig one night and gave him the opportunity to sit in and He asked him, well, what would you like to play and he said well, I'd like to play the drums and so without having received any formal tuition he played that night and Apparently it was very good That's surprising I mean I feel like nine times out of ten you'd have someone just sit down and it would be a train wreck I mean, we've always heard them like oh, I want to play the drums and it's that you know that like Doesn't sound musical so clearly he was born for this Yeah, and there was in some interviews There's a little bit of conjecture about the exact timeline, but but somewhere around there He did also attend like a rhythm and drum class and apparently that's when he got his first set of sticks So that's within the same year or so okay from what I can gather. He played a little bit. Oh, yeah for sure and So that that went on and on he he went around like so dad took him around to all the clubs as Often as he could so after a few years Tony was well-known enough by all the club managers and owners that that actually led him in without his parents there even as a young teenager And he he also said somewhere that that he was making tips People would give him money and he'd go home with $30 one night and the guys in the band were only working for $15 or $20 He probably had like the cute factor as a little kid, you know, no doubt. Yeah That's right. Cool. All right, we'll keep chugging from there. Yeah, so around round about this time It's when he met one of his most important influences and that that's a man that we know that today is the great Alan Dawson And it's interesting to note that from what I can gather When he started teaching Tony Tony was actually his first formal student He wasn't really known as a teacher before this he was a drummer that the Tony's dad played with on occasion and So Tillman invited Alan Dawson around to the house one time when Tony was about nine Dawson can't decide whether Tony was nine or ten or eleven when he met him, but somewhere around that time Sure, and they went up into the attic Tillman played the saxophone and Tony started playing along and and You know Dawson said words along the lines of like, you know, this this kid was this kid started to cook He had beautiful time beautiful fills Great taste and a good feeling everything but chops Yeah Interesting. Yeah, how about that? So there was a natural flair for it, obviously But he could could have afforded to have learned a lot more so Dawson actually took him under his wing and Taught him how to read. He didn't know how to read to that point And taught him the rudiments because he didn't know the rudiments at that point apparently Max Roach He another thing is that he'd already Max were met Max Roach by this time and So Max kind of his butt a little bit to get with Dawson apparently as well to get these rudiments under his belt I'm assuming it'll be out by the time I do this But I just did an episode with John Ramsey who studied with Alan Dawson and he was the chair at the drum department chair at Berkeley for years, but it was we talked about how there's this Boston kind of like, you know Max Roach and Alan Dawson, it's just there's something about this these Boston guys So and and Max Roach came up in that episode as well. So Right place the right time, you know Yeah, I think these guys were just passing through town so much and and again Tony's dad was just so adamant about taking him out to all these gigs so When he started with Dawson, you know, like I mean Tony said that not only did he teach him how to play the drums But he taught him how to conduct himself as a musician and as a man, you know Yeah, which is really nice and and the other thing that's really interesting about Dawson is that and and actually I've had some long conversations with the great pianist Hal Galper about this Hal wrote to me a few years after my thesis was published and he wanted to Touch base and he was a fan of the work and so we've stayed in touch since then and he was actually a really big part of Tony's youth in Boston as well playing in bands with Sam Rivers and stuff and and Hal used to play with Dawson and he said that he was one of the most clear drummers You could imagine hearing and and when he hears Tony play even at the age of 12 He can hear that same clarity that that you know clarity of ideas Yeah, that was a big a big part of it From what I understood about hearing about Alan Dawson was it wasn't like he wasn't a mean drill instructor types type teacher But he knew what he wanted and and a lot of what John Ramsey was saying about him was was the use of like stick control and syncopation But the incredibly innovative ways that he would use these books to have them, you know grow their independence and I think it was like Working through the first few pages, but you'd be playing and then you'd be simultaneously Humming a melody to a song while you're running through, you know stick control To get a certain kind of musicality To your plane which anyone out there who's heard Tony Williams knows he's a very musical drummer Yeah, that's right And and I guess we just don't know if he was teaching that method at that time You know, and I wouldn't have the first clue about where those ideas came to Dawson if they were his original ideas or if you know That was a musical thing But yeah, it is interesting to note that he he certainly became one of the great great great teachers for all of that Cool. So yeah, keep going there. So so right now Tony's 12. He's jamming with his dad. They're up in the attic. They're they're having fun He's cooking but not shopping So well around this time That's when he said that he started listening to Philly Joe Jones art Blakey and Max Roach and he labeled them the big three and He he had this idea that to make the perfect drummer you needed feel Technique and creativity and he was able to see these traits embodied in the work of These three guys he thought that aren't Blake. He really embodied feel Max Roach embodied technique and Philly Joe Jones embodied creativity And that that was really interesting to me in the study So I said when I did my musical analysis, I sort of looked at all them through the lens of those ideas and and it was interesting to try and hear that in his playing as compared to their playing to and so He was listening to them on recordings trying to incorporate all their ideas listening to jazz messengers John Coltrane, Sonny Rollins, all the prestige Blue Note Riverside releases, you know and and Also Around that time that's when he started seeing them play live So 1958 Blakey played in Boston. So Tony's what he's around about 12 or 13 this time and Blakey's there with the jazz messengers and Tony had developed enough confidence and skill by this time to ask Blakey if he could sit in with the jazz messengers Blakey said sure Wow, you got to walk the walk the walk if you're gonna go up there and ask, you know what I mean He's probably like yeah, oh, yeah Back it up. Wow. Yeah back it up And the band on that occasion is incredible. It was Lee Morgan on trumpet Wayne shorter was playing saxophone Who of course he ended up playing with him Miles Davis band later on anyway and Bobby Timmons on piano So what an impressive band and he really thought like, you know, I'd Blakey He just is the sound of his ride symbol and hi hats really really really stuck out to him Has something to latch on to and I think that's like, you know And I tried playing along with some I'd Blakey recordings when I was studying just like to get that kind of sound at that Great big sound out of the cymbal boy. Oh boy. Yeah, that seems to have a character of feel about it to me Yeah, but his Well like you I mean you're obviously a Studied man, but like with with what he's done to as a kid. I mean clearly the the amount of hours He's put in on this is um Is really showing off so so that must have been kind of a not not really I guess it wouldn't be a big break But that had to be a big moment for him. Oh No doubt, you know, and I I from what I can gather he really started to increase his Dedication I guess from around the age of 12 or 13 he said at some point He started practicing eight hours a day He left school at some point to to play the drums he started doing a lot of local gigs himself So yeah, I can just imagine those interactions with with someone as revered as Blakey, you know And then like a year later max roaches in town and he asked max if he could sit in as well and max let him You know and and that was a great band art Davis on base George Coleman a saxophone another Miles Davis alumni. He ended up playing with It's it's just phenomenal, you know and What's really interesting about his interaction with max roach is that Well, I you know he when he loved apparently Art Blakey was his first love, but max roach became his sort of greatest love And he had already done enough gigs by this time He was saving 20 to out of $30 a week from the gigs he was doing on the weekends And he bought the same silver sparkle Gretch max roach set around that time. Yeah, so I think that's the set of drums They used in his early days in New York Wow, and that kind of I mean he obviously had a long relationship with Gretch So I guess that might have been his because you said he was radio king first. So he started out slingerland and then I always say it here, but it just goes to show the how influential and important seeing your your your eye your idols what they play How that makes you want to play those drums? Yeah, that's right and just trying to match that sound and and the bit that really struck out as interesting to me And I'm sure a lot of people will be interesting interested in finding this out Is that again around that time in his early teenage years? His parents had divorced by that point and he was living at home with mom And yes, she was so young right so so she apparently was leaving town On a Monday morning and returning on a Friday evening to go and further her education. I don't know what she was studying Hmm, but what this precocious young man would do would Tony would get on a bus and go to New York And stay in New York for a week and then return on Friday morning before mom got home And she'd be like, what have you been doing? Oh, I've just been hanging out Wow, so yeah, I mean he must have really struck up some some deep friendships with these elder players, obviously, you know And I think that Max Roach knowing Alan Dawson already they That was a warm introduction all around and the bit that's probably of real interest here is that It's that Kay Zildjian sound that that he's known for, you know So I've got a little quote here from him on that on the symbol of the 1960s that he's so famous for so here And I quote the Kay sound I got that from Max actually years ago. I think it was 1960 I came to New York to visit Max. I'd met him. I think in 59 or 58 I went to visit him and we went out to the old Gretch factory in Brooklyn I met Mr. Gretch Fred Gretch at this time they had Kay Zildjians at the factory Max said hey Why don't you take this one? This sounds great So Max started me on the sound a big high dark sound. That's the right symbol. I have it's a high tone But the symbol itself of the dark sound I learned that definitely among other things from Max So there you go Max Roach actually gave him that symbol directly from the Zildjian warehouse man, I mean, there's so much History in that alone where and I I almost I kind of found it confusing where not what you said I found it confusing doing a zildjian episode where there was a whole thing where Gretch owned the rights to certain zildjian Like they owned Kay Zildjian or and someone else owned a yeah I think I have that backwards, but where Fred Gretch owned them and there was there's lawsuits and copyright issues They can own the Turkish made things and So Gretch is involved. So just there's a lot of history right there and that that little bit Yeah, I remember hearing Mel Lewis talk about some issues there at that time you had trouble getting getting the symbols he wanted It's confusing But I would direct people to the zildjian episode with Paul Francis because we talk about it, but My my mind is failing me at this point, but okay because he's he's very famous I mean that Kay sound is is pretty legendary. So that's very cool to hear that Yeah, and the interesting thing about that too is I've talked to people who have offered me the information of saying like, you know friend of mine went to You know a workshop that I think it was Wallace Roney put on Tony's trumpet player from the 80s and 90s And and he put a symbol up on the drum set and he got all the drummers there to play it I don't know if this is the very symbol that we're talking about But you know, he said what do you think of that symbol and everyone went? Oh, yeah, whatever It's just a symbol and so well guess what that was Tony Williams a symbol he gave that to me They're like, oh, I like it So I think you know with the artifact kind of thing It's like well a lot of what we're talking about here is really and I guess this is the main point that that I got from All this study is that like it really is about the individual It's not so much the artifact thing is interesting But but the actual playing of it is where the magic is I would agree completely I think that's so true across the board with symbols with Drums with, you know, un You know dampened bass drums and certain things you might sit down and not like it But if the right guy plays it or girl plays it then it's that's so cool. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So Testament to that Exactly story here for sure So he stuck with the case then for a long time obviously did and I don't want to get ahead of ourselves But that was basically use those K's for a long time, right? Oh Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, I'm not so clued up on the details through the 70s And someone like when the case became difficult to get but I think that I remember Reading that like in the 90s or so when all the A customs came out, you know, his drum tech at the time Garrison who works at DW now Got him a whole set of a customs to play and Tony really hated the fact that that happened But he actually acquiesced and played his whole wilderness album with those A customs and it sounds beautiful sounds like him He was like, okay. Yeah, I need something new So again, you listen to that album. You wouldn't know if they were K's or or anything else. Yeah It's just it's Tony Williams. That's the thing you hear his voice coming through the instrument Yeah, that's awesome. Man. It really is. It's him. All right. So moving on here I'm looking at your timeline. So this is when so you have Teenage years when he really started ramping up and this is I mean you kind of take for granted how young Tony was in that There's like a very famous Miles Davis video where he's sitting there playing and it's black and white and I'm sure obviously, you know all about that Yeah, take us through this. When did start to think when when did things start to pick up? Yeah, so I guess that the real big deal was that Jackie McClane came to Boston in December of 62 and Tony had been playing in the house band and Jackie McClane was the guest for the week and One thing led to another and to cut a long story short basically Tony said to Jackie. I want to get out of here. I want to move to New York and Jackie McClane said well, why don't you come and work on the play that I'm musical director for in in the city and You know with your parents blessing your mom's blessing. We can do that. And so That's what happened on Christmas Eve 1962 Tony Williams moved to New York I guess he had just turned 17 Wow Yeah, geez I Wanted point out too because you said before he would sneak off to to New York in the In you know on his week where his mom was going to school because for people I mean even you're in Australia But for people around the world who might not know and you might be thinking kind of geographically How far would that be if I googled New York to Boston distance? It says it's about 215 miles. So three hours and 37 minutes as a drive Today in 2021. So I don't know, you know with like if things were a little slower then but so let's say it's about four hour Drive just to kind of put it in a perspective. So everyone knows that it's not going from New York to California Which is the complete opposite side of the country. Yeah, and I guess that's why all these guys were in Boston so much Yeah, yeah during his youth so which are good for him. Yeah. All right. So Tony's in New York Yeah, so now he's in New York and he's playing on this play with Jackie McClain and I guess he's you know He's been let loose in the city. So he's Basically Jackie McClain Apparently recommended to Miles Davis who was looking for in your rhythm section at the time Why don't you come and check Tony out? In fact, sorry, he had already met Miles One of the other occasions about sitting in him in Boston was he you know, Jimmy Cobb was playing drums And he asked Jimmy, can I sit in and he said we have to ask Miles. So we asked Miles He says go back sit down and listen Said Miles didn't let him sit in Wow, he's asked everyone to sit in they've all said yes, but Miles was like Yeah, how about that? So So I think eventually, you know, he got to New York and somehow Miles found out about him this is that kid from Boston and You know apparently Lewis Hayes also recommended Tony because Tony Miles asked him if he could join it But he was with Cannonball Adelie. So well this three-day session happened Miles invited Tony to his apartment on I think it's 77th Street if I remember correctly and Herbie Hancock was on piano and Ron Carter was on the bass and Now Tony didn't know this at the time but Apparently, you know, he says I he didn't find about out about this until many years later, but and I quote Miles had me Well, sorry, Herbie Hancock said this Miles had me Tony and Ron play together in the recreation room downstairs in his 77th Street Manhattan apartment So he was upstairs listening to us over the intercom He came in when we got there when we first got there and played a few notes on his horn and said oh shit I'll be right back And that's the last we saw of him, you know so apparently Ron Carter led the audition and he just there were a few charts on the piano and he took Them through those things and Miles is upstairs now apparently it this went for three days and At various points over those three days He had his friends, you know closest friends the ranger and composer extraordinary Gill Evans and also Philly Joe Jones Invited them to come and listen, you know and and obviously He was very happy with the sound and I think on the last day he went downstairs and he played a few tunes with them man Yeah, that's like it's I don't want to say it's bizarre. It's awesome But it's like this just weird situation where it's like If I were Tony or those guys and herbie Hank, I'd be like All right, what's going on? Yeah, yeah That's right. They must have had a sense of what was going on room Miles Davis house and just playing like he must be hearing us Yeah, he's gotta be here. Wow, that's new been wild Yeah, what an experience, but so he obviously He passed the test No doubt. Yeah, and it was very shortly after that that they recorded the Tracks that appeared on the album seven steps to heaven So that was I think with April April 63. Yeah, I think they they did that It's interesting to note too that like there's an interesting little period So, you know Christmas Eve 1962 before April 63 when he joins Miles He'd already made four albums for Blue Note at that time To two sessions with Jackie McClane one's called vertigo, but it wasn't released at the time It was recorded like released way later like the late 70s or 80s and then another album called one step beyond which did come out at the time and there's an album called my point of view by herbie Hancock and My other album I can't think of it right now. I think Kenny Dorham's album. Yeah, I'm a mass Wow, and yeah, and you listen to those I mean listening to vertigo is is an experience You think you're hearing a young Tony when on those early Miles things But actually he's he's got it together on this his very first recording session in February 63 Yeah, I think it's important. You said that cuz like I don't know I think sometimes historically you see it as like this like this magic where Tony says can I sit in and then they say yeah, and then okay now he's famous where no he's put in a lot of work Oh, yeah be studied. He's played in a Rec room for three days. No, I'm kidding. But like All kinds of things but but where he's been he's this isn't his first session, you know what? I mean, he's been on the album So that's not to say that he's just some phenom who came out of the nowhere and then was with Miles Davis because sometimes Pop culture makes you think that that everything so for some people it just happens overnight, but uh, he worked Oh, yeah, yeah, totally musically adept, you know one interesting thing, too That how Galper told me that I haven't seen in print anywhere is that when? When Tony started playing with Sam Rivers back in Boston around Tom. He was 15 or 16 and how was playing piano? I think it was Richard Davis on bass what they would do is they would get together and play a tune for an hour and Then they'd take a break and then they'd come back in and play that same tune again But they'd actually work an arrangement in on top of the tune, right? I don't know what kind of arrangement it was they'd play that for an hour and then they'd take another break come back in Put another arrangement on top of the arrangement that they put there before that previous break Wow, and then they go and take another break and then finally at the end of the day They'd come back play the tune again with no arrangement and just see what came up and that According to how you know really influenced the way the band would interact and I can hear in some of the Miles recordings You know the interaction that he had with her be on the live in Tokyo session They're playing this they're actually super imposing this long 7-4 over the very fast 4-4 You know and this like takes them like two hits to know like I think her be plays it and then Tony's like Oh, I know what you're doing, you know and and joins and they play this long drawn-out thing Not to get too analytical here. Oh, sure But that's you know, I always thought how and on earth did they do that and once I heard that from how that? They probably rehearsed putting these arrangements in in that similar kind of way, you know And and and then when they get up to play, there's no particular arrangement, but because I've done that work That informs the kind of interaction. I love that idea. I think it's absolutely brilliant. Yeah They've they're just it's like There's no surprise nothing can it almost seems like nothing can surprise them Like you can they can throw whatever they wanted each other and they've already been through all this stuff And there's you know, different time signatures and lane arrangements on top of each other. So that's right just a mastery Wow Yeah, there's there's an idea in like musical theater That I was intrigued by when I was doing this study You know, I realized that like Ron Carter absolutely embodied this whether he was directly aware of it or not But it's like this idea in musical theater is like yes And you have to just say something ridiculous and your counterpart has to acknowledge that and go on with something It's not no, but yes, and and I think they really really embraced that spirit of that, you know, yeah, it's very jazzy Yeah, so Alright, so how old well first off and I remember someone talking to me about this Tony Williams for the very in the early years was typically referred to as Anthony Williams. Is that correct? Yeah, okay So Anthony at this point really Yeah, how old was he when he joined up, you know, basically getting involved with Miles Well, I guess what are we talking about April 63? So he's still 17 17 Okay, that's what I thought it's kind of the famous. He was 17 when he was there. So so, okay, got it And you can hear of course from this very brief story that there's 10 solid years of Interaction with some of the best and and just some incredible performance practice going on right to that So he certainly didn't come out of nowhere. No, exactly. That's sure. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So where do we go from there? Well, I guess, you know, he's he's he's in the Miles Davis fold now He's he's developing some notoriety, you know, and and there there are factions some people like it other people really don't like it You know, he's really into playing fast at that time, which alienated a bunch of people in Boston apparently But you know, and apparently the traveling got to him a little bit You know, they got to Europe for the first time and he wanted to go home I guess because he's just still so young as a kid. He's really only been interested in the drums Yeah, that's right. He can play the hell out of the drums, but you know, yeah You know, he said that it's throughout that time. He was he actually felt Quite lonely had to go through it all alone and it was quite emotional as well, which is interesting He said, you know at various points like, you know, people wanted Tony Williams a drummer But no one was interested in Tony Williams the person. So it's interesting to note that all this is going on Yeah, he said his teen years lasted well into his 20s Yeah, you know, I bet you know, what's cool though is it's interesting to think too about having a Mom who's so young when she has you like I just quickly used the calculator and kind of did it like when he's 17 His mom is 31. So she's so young too. They must have been really close. I would imagine like yeah, right? I think so when when dad moved out there was another Tuba player Howard Johnson moved into the house and he'd lived there for about two or three years and and he was on the scene He and Tony actually left Boston at the same time because it wasn't Howard Johnson thought it wouldn't be appropriate for him to be renting The room in the back of his mom's house. People think they were together and all this stuff. So, you know, respectfully he left When they very obviously weren't so Yeah, I think they were close and and he really did respect her Guidance on what what he was allowed and not allowed to do despite the fact that he snuck away on the bus Yeah, what mama doesn't know doesn't hurt her I guess is Okay, so he's but he's he's a He sounds a little bit I don't want to say sensitive with the going to Europe and the missing home and people not knowing who he is But he's sound he seems very emotionally intelligent You know like like not just a drummer who hits stuff who's in the back. He's he's an artist Oh, definitely and and it's really interesting, you know in moving on like when you mentioned that his name was Anthony Williams That's that's correct. He released two albums on blue note one was recorded when he was 18 called lifetime and That was blue notes first and perhaps one of their only avant-garde releases It's really quite out when you listen to it that one and gosh I can't think of the name of the other album right now But but they were both really quite avant-garde and he was really clear I this is one of the things that really strikes me about him too is that He goes to great length in in you know various interviews to say That he really wasn't interested in sounding like anybody else But the only way that he could come up with his own original sound Was to have gone through the process of learning to play exactly like all these guys and he claims to have done that Prior to all of this and so what he ended up playing was what they didn't play Hmm and when I was studying I didn't have any recorded evidence that this is the case I just had his words, but there's there's a there's a clinic on YouTube now that's that's come out So I think it's 1987. He's in Germany somewhere. It's a three hour long presentation right at the end He's got his great big bus driver drums Yeah, you know characteristic of that period sure and and towards the end of that presentation it Comes about that he actually goes and does all these impersonations of these guys. We've already mentioned Max Roach Art Blakey Philly Joe Jones Also, like I remember Roy Haynes Maybe one or two others and when you listen to him like we were talking about before like it's not the Artifact it's the way you play it. He made his drums those same drums sound He didn't sound like Tony Williams playing it. He sounded like Max Roach playing those drums He sounded like Roy Haynes, but he sounded like Elvin was the other one Elvin Jones Here I'm Tony Williams doing Elvin Jones, but impersonation is wild and it's like wow Yeah, he can play just like all of those guys, you know, even through to the 80s But when you hear him play, he's very decidedly playing himself and it's informed Entirely by that. That just knocks me out. Yeah, he's oh my god. That's such a good point. It's uh Which all those guys are very unique, but Elvin especially is very his own Sound and Max Roach all those guys are very very unique where it's not, you know, I Guess you'd say top of the pops kind of like just you know rock drummers. These are these aren't easy things to imitate either No, that's that's right. That's right. And there was one one story from Howard Johnson about when he was living with Tony was that you know when Coltrane's Africa brass session came out album came out and I think it was 61 or 62 He said that like he heard Elvin play on that It just he didn't like it at first apparently but but he warmed to it and then I realized and he's asking Howard Johnson Listen to those Tom Tom's. He's playing the Tom's You know, and yeah, so he played along with that over and over and over and over from the morning tonight He just played over and over with the Africa brass session And I think that's what he did with all of the records. He just play along As much as he could to really cop that sound. Yeah at this point right now is Tony I don't want to say or Anthony I should say is he Not really a household name because I feel like for that usually means like buddy rich or something where your grandma knows about him You know what I mean, but is he amongst drummers? Like a respected name. I mean, it's his name like it just max roach art Blakey Elvin Jones Roy Haines to all these guys know about him as the young kid who's oh, yeah Yeah, they do and and like including Lewis Hayes Like that they they all rate him very highly and and and Lewis Hayes just said like you know He was absolutely dedicated, you know, and they used to practice together He said when they were in California touring together with Miles and cannibal everyone else would be in the at the beach Lewis Hayes and Tony would be back in the hotel room practicing together You know, and this is this is after he's joined miles, of course So he just didn't stop and I read one account that said by about August 1965 There's it's no doubt that he's been received internationally as being a new thing And yeah by the time say Eric Dolfy's record came out out to lunch You know that famous Miles Davis 1964 concert recorded at the Lincoln Center You know, what's it called the two albums my funny Valentine and four and more now It's the complete 1964 concert. Well, that was February 64. So he's already been with Miles for about a year and Like two weeks after that he goes into the Rudy Van Gilda studio in New Jersey and records out to lunch with Eric Dolfy You know that the juxtaposition of this really far out avant-garde thing with the standards that Miles playing Yeah, it's it's like he he didn't operate in just one scene. He's straddling all these different aesthetics Coming and going and playing all these all-star blue note dates with with everybody He's already played with Joe Henderson and Bobby Hutchison and all these amazing The biggest names. Yeah, really Miles I guess was a little bit and I'm really speaking, you know Not as an expert in any way about miles Davis But there was a documentary that I think we've talked about on the show before about miles It came out sort of recently that was really cool. But so he was obviously sort of He would get kind of heated at points, you know over certain things was did he and Tony get along really well Miles and Tony as as far as I'm aware Miles gave Tony free reign He didn't he didn't tell him what to do. I've heard that a lot, but there's one little interview I read I think maybe it's in Mars a lot of biography where he said, you know Tony didn't play the hi-hat at some point and and he said he got him to play the hi-hat Because that's what everybody did so there's this, you know, yes He told him what to play. No, he didn't tell him what to play But I mean that I think miles. Yeah, I mean there's lots of lots of recollections of miles The of him saying like You know, nobody knew What was going to happen, you know, and but they were excited by that And this little this little guy on the drums just totally blowing him away So the thing that I think musically what one of the things that he really really changed That I noticed mostly when I was doing all my analysis was that and and miles Davis Absolutely paved the way for this to happen was like more of a sense of Interaction in the band so that the drums aren't in the back line being Support act for the soloist at the front He knows my big solo and you're gonna support me that that kind of hierarchy he broke that down and He he really Complimented miles phrases the end of the phrase within an eighth note of miles ending the phrase Tony realized that you know Here's a little spot. I'm gonna I'm gonna answer that phrase here He does he does it over the bar line because nobody was doing that either and he's all around the drums and and Breaking up the time That was that was pretty new the way the way he did that and so I think miles was that It gave him a whole new sense of direction and motivation to keep growing I think he said at some point like he'd stopped practicing and he Before Tony joined the band. He wasn't really, you know, he was just kind of just towing the line I guess. Yeah, but then when my Tony comes in and her be of course, I mean, it's not just Tony But it's a whole band and wrong legendary. Yeah. Yeah, so they're they're all there together and it's Exciting and the whole world is hearing this for the first time. So if you're the if your name's on the marquee I guess you're gonna be pretty excited by that, you know, yeah so All right. Well, let's keep chugging forward. Obviously we then as on your timeline then miles goes electric So, yeah, take it on. Yeah, take it on from there Yeah, so, you know, you think of Coltrane dying in mid 67 and and that that's really when Tony started wanting to hear something else And you know, electrically amplified guitars like Jimi Hendrix was coming onto the scene Motown was big James Brown came about so both Tony and Miles are starting to hear this electric guitar and and those kinds of Grooves and they're obviously very popular More popular. Yeah, maybe jazz is dwindling a little bit. Yeah So from, you know, I noted a very definite period from the 4th of December 67 to 18th of February 1969 That's when like I call that like the electric period with miles. So One of the great recordings from that period of fear to kill a man Jaro That's that that really embodies this sound Who be Hancock's playing electric piano. Oh, also, you know keeping it Current of course, the great chick Korea has just left us. Yes and gone to play the great piano in the sky. Yeah Yeah, it's a Devastating loss. Well, I read somewhere that it was actually Tony Williams who recommended chick Korea for miles And that was, you know, in order, you know, the messages that are coming out about chick this last this last week or so That, you know, chick Korea getting with miles was a very big pivotal moment in his career He'd already done some great stuff, but that was a deciding moment. So Tony Williams was responsible for that apparently. Wow Yeah, so he's on this album as well. It's just one of those guys where and there's other groups and bands where like there's like like There's like this one person at the center miles, but then all these musicians that came off of it. We're just like, yeah Just like legends. Yeah, it's off the wall. It's amazing So, you know, the guitar is in there now. He's got George Benson playing the guitar Joe Beck was the first guitarist he used on some of the stuff that came out on Circle in the round Quite a few years after it was recorded and Gosh, you're the electric bass, you know, miles was all that like if I can hear the bass I can play a bit better. So the whole electric sound was like a natural matriculation, it's like, wow now we can hear everything and I think he's bashing out a bit more on the drums You know, he's starting to get a bit louder because he's not he's not limited I guess by the acoustic nature of the other instruments now Not that not that he sounds limited at all prior to that, but no by nature You know when things get louder when you play with a band then there's even when you're you know If you're playing a band the speakers are better because you're playing in a bigger venue or something It's like, oh, I can kind of play different. Mm-hmm. Yeah, what's your take? I mean you're you study this stuff. Do you like the electric peer? Do you have any feelings one way or the other about it? I mean, they're obviously different beasts. Oh I Love it. I mean, I love them both for very different particular reasons. I can't really decide I can't put one against the other I do love the fact that it just evolved. Yeah, it wasn't you know, it seemed very natural organic a Reaction to the pop culture of the time the availability of the technology now to have portable amplifiers and stuff like that and Just the way, you know and and with all the You know the civil rights movement haven't having happened 64 and everything that came about you just seeing the blending of Black-and-white musicians now and that's just like jazz rock really just embodies that to me And I love it. I love it. There's no more segregation. You know, it's everything's Coming together and doesn't it doesn't matter. Let's just play music together and let's let's play a backbeat Let's let's play an ostinato. Let's you know, it doesn't have to be You know, like free all the time. So it's yeah, there's very very different characteristics of all that though I particularly love. Yeah. Yeah, they're yeah, these guys are taste makers Obviously, so it's got to be liberating and I know there was something similar with obviously Bob Dylan going electric and people hated it So, hmm, but I mean if you ask me again not being an expert on on either one What do you want stuff to just keep being the same like these guys have to these are these are innovative guys It just has to keep you forward. Yeah, that's the main point I think and and yeah, none of them were interested in rehashing any of their old stuff You know, I think I think that had enough of wearing the tuxedos as well You can see them different a change of wardrobe. Yeah, I think they're all far out camera. Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure Yeah So yeah that the and it still sounds like the same people just playing something different now, you know, it's it's really cool Yeah So of course at this time now, you've got Tony Williams He's kind of a little bit sick of being under the thumb to like he's hearing these sounds and thinking I wanted, you know He'd been studying composition all of this time So he wanted to break out and form his own Band and there's a little bit of controversy about Miles Davis stealing John McLaughlin for the in a silent way session and You know, whatever about all of that Tony Williams eventually broke away and formed the Tony Williams lifetime with the great Larry I'm on the organ and John McLaughlin on guitar who he brought over from England And that's that's when really, you know in a lot of history books They say this is the beginning of fusion music what it became known as fusion or jazz rock Whatever you want to call it and again, it's not like they're going all let's make a new style It just it just grew organically out of all of the everything that emerged Yeah, so yeah, he's in his 20s. Oh Yeah, yeah 22 or 23 and and I remember him saying actually an interesting point since we mentioned Hendricks I remember one interview which has since disappeared from YouTube So it's worth noting here that the guy actually identified Tony has been the only person who played with Jimmy Hendricks Miles Davis and John Coltrane The Hendricks thing was like a get-together. It wasn't recorded but But he had that distinction of being the only guy who played with all three and the guy asked him like What did they all have in common? What a question, right? Yeah, really and Tony's response was well What they all had in common was not only that they were prepared for the possibility of making a mistake But they were actually willing to make mistakes How about that? So he I think he was inspired by that in wanting to form lifetime He said like if I'm gonna make any mistakes, I'm gonna make them now I don't want to wait till later on to make all the mistakes. I'm gonna make I'm gonna make them while I'm still young So I don't if he's talking about like, you know record contract stuff. I've heard all sorts of things about He was he was offered a Columbia deal as as an alumnus of Miles Davis band but apparently that fell through and that contract actually went to John McLaughlin and Billy Hart knows about all of this. I can't remember exactly what he said But you know and then so and that's what that's how the my efficient orchestra started with McLaughlin using that contract And then Tony Tony got all disgruntled and and You know this whole thing about Billy Cobham. I mean, I'm talking out of school here I you know Billy Cobham is still with us and I would like to talk to him personally about this rather than making up Conjecture, you know, but it is interesting. It's just an interesting period. He's no longer, you know, Cobham is around now So and he's got the great big drum set Tony's trying to find himself still And I think that the interesting point for me and everything I've looked at I think the album believe it that came out. I think it was 76 you can hear It's like he's he's now this is the Tony Williams that was always in line. It was always going to be this Everything before this has led to this moment. I really hear a very strong statement in the in the believe it album As far as his drum sound his playing his tunes his arrangements the band That's like a defining moment to me. Although, I mean lifetime. I mean the the Emergency and everything you did with that band prior to it's like this real tumultuous Period is just like a lot of output and I just I feel like it all culminated in this when Alan holds worth joining the band And yeah, it's fascinating. So You mentioned bigger drums, I mean, that's all fascinating you mentioned bigger drums So maybe rewinding quickly because obviously we can just spend all day talking about this, but So Tony traditionally was playing like a four-piece kit or so right early in his earlier days And then things progressively got bigger. So maybe just touch on his gear, you know Yeah, sure. Yeah, just a little bit Yeah, so I you know when you listen to the killer man Jara album, you can actually hear a third Tom Tom I don't know if it's a second floor Tom or a second rack Tom, but you definitely hear that third tonality And and later in the early 70s to see footage of him playing a five-piece Gretch Set and there's a sort of smaller Tom in between the regular rack and floor Tom's and I think that's probably the third tonality that we're hearing You know on some recordings actually even before Roy Haynes Came out with now he sings now he solves famous flat ride sound Tony's actually Recording with a flat ride as an effect symbol like before Roy Haynes It was one interesting fact Although that wasn't released at the time, but it was you know, it was there. He did it And so there's this five-piece set and then you hear the album the old Bums rush I think it was 73 and You're hearing the larger drums, but it's not quite as concise and coherent as again what came out 75 76 He's definitely using the bigger bass drum. There's no question about that Like he went up to a 24 inch bass drum and apparently that was so he could hear himself over the volume of all the amplified drum Guitar and things now. Wow. So the the music's that loud around them that he really needed that go from 18 to a 24 And you talk to people who have heard that drum acoustically and it's just to just hit you in your stomach You know just goes straight through you had a very flappy and no muffling a lot of the time to just like a big concert-based drum Man slamming the you know, yeah, he's got a big sound. I mean you can tell that from Watching YouTube videos on your computer speakers, you know, you can tell that he's got a huge sound Which thankfully we have all these videos. Yeah So the big drums, yeah, I'm pretty sure my way of putting it together. It is a reaction to Billy Cobham In some way. I don't know. That's just me making that up But it would make sense if that came to be the case and so he's got you know The 13 and 14 inch rack toms and a 14 16 and 18 inch floor tom again on this 24 inch bass drum and they're tuned Melodically, it's tuned to like a pentatonic scale. He's got only a tone between the three smaller drums Then a minor third up to the snare drum when the snares are off And then like a maybe a fourth and a fifth going down to the bigger drums So he started playing around this time these really melodic single stroke roll type almost like their timpani Yeah, which is fascinating. Has he gone yellow at this point? I Believe so. I think by the time he's actually playing with John McLaughlin and Larry young. He's got a four-piece Yellow Gretch set. So I don't know what happened to the silver sparkle drums, but yeah, they're yellow And I think he stuck with that because he's like those are those are again keep saying the word But those are very iconic. I mean, he's him playing a yellow drum set is about as you know Yeah, they go together. That's right. Apparently not to not to you know I know we're going long here not to get too far ahead either But it's like, you know, he went with DW later on and I think apparently that was because Gretch actually sent me like a yellow Wrap instead of a yellow lacquer and he didn't like it and send it back and they sent it back again And you know, I don't know that's that's here say but that's what I've heard and so The yellow thing, you know, but he had the hardware painted red on that on the DW drums, which is interesting Yeah, that is interesting All right. Yeah So I'm looking at your timeline. We're in about 77 ish now, right? Mm-hmm. So at this point he moves to San Francisco I'm not sure what the reasons for that are. I think a lot of musicians actually moved from New York to San Francisco and That's where he lived for the rest of his life Santa and Selmo and Apparently he made he he He was making income from the Brownstone apartment he owned in Harlem So he was getting rental income for that and that was that's what paid for his life So I think obviously he's not playing as much, you know, just around town playing So he did big tours with a VSOP band and all these all-star type lineups that they tour the world But he was really interested in composition at this like like he's always been interested in composition But I think from what I gather he basically became a composer at that point So he's doing a lot of counterpoint studies and orchestration studies and like learning to write like in the same way He did it with the drums learning to write in the style of Marla in the style of Schoenberg You know so that he can again find the cracks and end up emerging with his own sound, you know Again, it's fascinating. So he got us all the tools together that he could so whenever one of those big tours Or a record date came up and boy a boy. There's some fantastic ones over the next say 20 years or so until he died He would he'd get on the drums a few days beforehand just to warm everything up again and just to get on board with everything You know, so so all that practice was done many many years beforehand Wow, and I don't know too much about this period, but But that's you know, and I guess if we forward to the 80s He's now got his quintet his sort of second stint with the blue note records and that he's been writing for that band It's really beautiful compositions acoustic. He's got the big drums, but he's in an acoustic quintet again now People accused him of modeling it on Miles Davis, but Again, he thought well, no, this is but this is my music. It's not it's not I'm not modeling on Miles Davis at all So that's fascinating. That is fascinating people always want to I Don't know when you're a celebrity musician, even if you're a drummer I say that I think everyone knows what I mean You're not like Britney Spears or something up there. Like you're We're in the back But we're still we're still great But but even then if you're a famous musician, they still want to kind of like Poke at you a little bit. You know what I mean and say, oh, you're just doing it like Miles Like yeah, it's such a long career at that point already. Yeah, that's right And I guess those the people writing those articles or putting those news posts together They want to sell copies so some kind of controversy and something something to Argue over is gonna, you know move some units. I guess very true. That's pretty much every entertainment, you know Magazine out there. That's exactly what they don't say. Everyone's great. We love every That's right, you know, it doesn't sell doesn't matter. Yeah So so yeah, that was an interesting sound and those those albums are beautiful He put some lovely little drum solo vignettes on there and you know to me it still sounds, you know It still sounds very much like the same person just a little later in life having gone through whatever he went through and Yeah, yeah, so that's San Francisco and You know, I mean his discography really speaks Most clearly, you know, like you you listen to the recordings that he did throughout this period. I mean, they're all Unbelievable. It's just so great the way he I could go on for hours and hours and hours Analyzing the way he played but obviously there's not over here Yeah, like the interesting stuff is definitely the way he got set up and then how that followed through to his move to San Francisco You know, and I guess that brings us pretty close to the end of his life where Gosh, it was somewhere around I think 94 95 couple years before he died he started using a double bass drum set and And There's some great photos of him around using that and he really wanted to get into like playing metal and Now I heard I've heard Stories from people who actually were he had a trio play at Birdland in New York only only weeks before he died and it was Mulgrew Miller on piano and Ron Carter on the bass and He had the double bass drum set up There and they they said like I've heard this independently from other people from different people He played all together too loud. It was actually too loud way too loud for what it was. It's like like definitely loud We've all been in that situation. We're like, dude. Yeah, it's chill a little bit So, I mean, I would have loved to have heard that But of course, you know, it was never to be and then so there's a lovely trio record with Mulgrew and his regular bassist Dara Coleman playing some trio music and then there are two albums towards the end of his life that are really to me very very important His own album Wilderness, which I think was recorded in 96 or at least in 96 He had an all-star band Michael Brecker Pat Matheny Stanley Clarke and gosh, I'm missing somebody Oh, Herbie. Herbie once again and a chamber orchestra playing his orchestral compositions It is absolutely beautiful. It is stunning and he's got um, I wrote to the photographer from that session And he's years ago and he actually sent me a few photos from that session of Tony on his great big double bass drum set up And my goodness again, just like moving from the four piece to the five piece to the however many pieces are in the big bus driver set Seven I guess and then to this again, it's always this natural Organic matriculation into this new thing. He's got it cut maybe one or two extra toms on this big drum set So he's even more melodic You can hear with the stereo spread of it where the toms are on this solo piece that he's written is beautiful absolutely beautiful and The way he plays drums on these orchestral pieces with the quintet there You've never heard anyone play the drums like that, you know, it's just the most musical statement. It's almost like if his Everything that's come before has has culminated in this and as they you hear people say this about great people who leave us too young It's almost like they go at the right time. It's like he did wilderness. It's almost like his soul was like I've done what I came here to do. That's my feeling about it. Anyway, my personal feeling about it And then there's this other album which he did in collaboration with the great Bill Laswell there's a band called Arcana and There were two albums. It's the second one that's most interesting. It's called Arc of the Testimony and He's got the double bass drum set on that and it's it's getting close to metal aesthetics and And the great Ferris Sanders plays saxophone on it I have to say and you read the liner notes Bill Laswell said, you know, Tony died before we got to finish this Obviously, he got all his drums tracked, but they hadn't finished, you know, doing the mixes or whatever they were gonna do And and so if the title of the first track is called gone tomorrow Which almost makes me want to well up thinking about it. I really touches me deeply and you listen to when you hear it, but It there's something so touching About the ethereal nature of the way he plays on that with Ferris Sanders on the top, you know Very much he was Coltrane's close compatriot towards the end of Coltrane's life So there's Ferris Sanders at the end of two significant lives Which is I've never really thought about that before I just said it, but that's that's an interesting point and then I think in February February 1997 he had to go into hospital for They say routine gallbladder surgery had his gallbladder removed and one or two days after that operation He was in recovery and he ended up dying of heart attack 23rd of February so 1997 so he was 51 Geez and he's so much. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah What a life what a life with It's such a shame too that it was routine Gallbladder surgery. It was just a surgery. You know what? I mean, it wasn't like yeah now and I you know I'm sure what what does it matter? But like it seems like he didn't have a lifetime of like drug abuse or going too far and though You know drinking too much too often or something, you know, it seemed like he was a little more, you know Put together Yeah, well, he didn't he didn't drink apparently and but he did smoke these great big cigars. Okay According to Mike knock who's a pianist out here an old band leader of mine He played with Tony in those early Boston days, too And so for a long time Tony did smoke big cigars. I don't know what you know, you're not supposed to inhale with a cigar, right? I don't think so. That's just good for you So I don't know if that had any impact on on his health during this surgery, you know, I mean his wife Yeah, I was gonna say I mean if Keith Richards is still going and guys like that Then I don't think John Tony playing smoking a couple cigars. Yeah. Yeah, and again my my yeah My take on it is it's on a soul level or just his time had come, you know It was a time for him to check out and that's that's how it happened for him and unfortunately for the rest of us Yeah, I got to meet him or hear him in person, but um, so many people did incredible. Wow That's just such a good full picture of his life. I mean So his legacy lives on Obviously, he's still as we've said I mean, it's kind of cool in my opinion that as you said Max Roach art Blakey Alvin Jones, Rohans these guys who were his Idols, I mean without a doubt. He is up there with them. I mean he is there's no like, you know, the kid who's You know, they kind of lump him in there. I mean he is one of the Top dog legends of drumming so he he he achieved his his goal there Yeah, that's arguably true. Yeah. Yeah, man. All right. Well Dave, this was just like I Feel like I've learned so much more about Tony because I've seen tons of videos about him and all this stuff and Yeah, and honestly, I think you covered a lot of the great stuff We talked back and forth a lot about how you know, this could be a two-hour. You mean you said like you Realistically you could talk for 10 hours about each individual topic, but I think this was a great, you know Compact version of it and For everyone listening Dave has been kind enough to join me after this is recorded to hop over and we're gonna do a quick You know 10 15 minute patreon bonus episode where we're gonna learn about Dave's Journey and how he learned all this and how he wrote his thesis on Tony Williams and what that all entailed and maybe how the reception was how people liked it obviously so Yeah, on that note Dave, where can people find you? Why don't you tell them here where they can find you what's going on with you and you're because you're a great drummer? Obviously in in in your own right, so yeah, what's your your info? Oh, thanks, bud Well, my central point of contact will always be Dave Goodman.com.au on the internet and if you go slash PhD After that URL you'll find the page where you can actually go to the University of Sydney Electronic library and download a copy of this thesis for free, you know and and or everything else you if you want to know anything More about me you can all find all my socials and all that from there because they come and go don't they so we never know But that website will be here forever And I'm contactable through there, of course. There's an email page. So yeah, cool Yeah, all right. Well, Dave, this has been a pleasure. It's been again. You're a day ahead of me I love doing the stuff with Australians because it's just so funny how like the the time distance and The time difference and I'm so glad we could do it at a reasonable time It's it's nine o'clock for me and it's about what one one o'clock for you. That's right. Yeah, it's worked out. Well the next day And then coming to you from the future Exactly All right, well Dave will thanks so much for sharing your incredible knowledge with us my absolute pleasure But we're real real honored to be here If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history And please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning