 715 and I will call the committee the whole to order Call the roll Hold a person acley Yeah, older person Donahue Yeah, all the person Feldy Yeah, all the person flicky pananski Yeah, all the person decker here all the person's fallio All the person Mitchell Yeah, all the person boran Here an older person sorenson is here. All right, would you please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance? To the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands one nation Under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all. All right anyone from public forum today Seeing none is there approval of the minutes from our October 19th meeting There's been a motion by Mary Lynn second by Marcus Discussion Seeing none all those in favor, please state aye. Aye Aye Anyone opposed aye? Chair votes aye the minutes are approved All right, so today we have Joe Trubrode who will be given an update on the water utility Project that they got coming down so Joe. Thanks so much for tuning in Oh, I missed rose for the roll call. She sent me a message roses is here, so Sorry about that rose Joe take it away Okay, well, thank you all them and sorenson and mr. Mayor and council members. I appreciate the opportunity to present This to you tonight One of the challenges of a remote presentation is tough to read the audience But if I hear anybody shout stop or please stop I'll take that as a sign to speed things up and I'll do my best to keep this moving Following on on administrator wolf's state of the city, I'm very happy and excited to present the project which is very much about the replacement of critical infrastructure and In this case what we're referring to as the raw water improvements project at the Wadi utility For those of you haven't met me or I haven't been able to meet you I have been at the utility since 1996 I started in the engineering department there and became a superintendent in 1998 and I've been there ever since Not quite as long as the photo here from 1935 of the utility at that point in time, but for quite quite a long period of time Go ahead and get started so let me just for the benefit of The public and everyone give a little background. What is the shabuaga water utility? We are a public utility under the state of Wisconsin and we provide drinking water to the community and We've been a public utility since 1909 Located at 72 Park Avenue and in fact water production predates 1909 It goes all the way back to 1887 when a small company came and built a small intake pipeline and a pumping station and Installed some wooden water main and served water for profit to the city of Sheboygan Um As a public utility were regulated by the Wisconsin Public Service Commission Same regulator of private utilities like Alliance and WPR and such We're also regulated by the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources and the US EPA The latter two have a lot more to do with the water quality aspects of what we do The Public Service Commission has a lot to do with the financial aspects of what we do For example rate setting and things like that One really important thing to keep in mind about the water utility many of you know this others might not but we Operate entirely on water revenues, so we don't receive any tax monies or anything from the city general fund Water utility operates entirely on water fees water revenues It's important to remember and we'll talk a little more later about a water bill Which is produced by the Wadi facility? That bill also includes the sanitary sewer charges and garbage and recycling charges and those we turn over to the proper entities for those revenues and we simply retain the water revenue portion for our operations as many of you know the utilities is governed by extra point in water or water commissioners elected by the Common Council where the community is Served by a number of very good commissioners and I'd be remiss and not mentioning our long-standing commissioner and I like to tease him that He was first appointed to the board before I graduated from high school And take a look at me. I graduated from high school a long time time ago. The community is very fortunate to have a Jerry Vandy Creek serve for decades as the port of water commissioners along with other very fine serving members Customers of the Wadi to include all city residents We also serve the city of Shipwagon Falls and the village of Kohler their wholesale water customers So we have nothing to do with their water distribution, but we do sell them water on a wholesale basis So all the water in those communities is coming from the shipwagon Wadi utility So a little basic background in providing drinking water. There's four basic steps We have to have a source of raw We refer to it as raw or untreated water And in the case of shipwagon, we're very lucky to have lake michigan on our doorsteps. It's a very fine source of water Actually probably better now than decades ago Due to a number of agricultural runoff and industrial runoff controls the source of drinking water for the city Is a very very good one um You need a process to pump the raw water through a water treatment process or plant Make it safe and potable and that plant is as you see here In a drone shot is located at 72 park avenue And the shot does give a good impression that water treatment plants tend to grow over time. They're they're never just plunked down in one spot and and all together finished they tend to Grow over time and spread over wet land they have available and you can get an impression of that from the photo here The third aspect uh, you when you finish treating the water you need a separate Mean to station to pump the water through a water distribution network to the citizens And that consists of in our case 207 ish miles of water main Water towers pressure booster stations valve hydrants all those things that we need to serve water to to the customers um the fourth and and also important aspect you need to have an accurate metering or measuring system of the customer's usage So that you can bill and provide an appropriate customer service Um and in the city of sheboygan we have just over 19,000 customer accounts In order to do that Um the photo here is also helpful It was taken in 2020 and it shows you that we don't have a lot of available space around water treatment plants at 72 park avenue So the raw water improvement project Has a lot to do with raw water untreated water from the lake and how we acquire that And currently the sheboygan water utility uses two raw water pipelines that go out into lake michigan Our veteran is a 30 inch cast iron pipeline that was installed in 1909 at a length of 5100 feet and and depth that you can see there Our baby was installed in 1959. That's the 36th concrete pipeline Uh much shorter length only 2100 feet out and in less depth of water And those two pipelines provide all the drinking water for the communities that I mentioned The 30 inch can produce 11 million gallons of water a day 11 mgd as we would say And the 36th inch can produce more about a little more than twice as much 24 million gallons a day um pipelines in lake michigan are pretty common of Most uh communities of any size along the great lakes use it as a water source So from a civil engineering perspective these pipelines tend to have a normal working lifetime of about 100 years more or less um, so right away in on that 1909 uh intake which is uh exceeded 100 years of lifetime certainly um the last point uh Just going to water utility on an average day Uh produces about 12 million gallons of water for those customers In the summer that might go up to 18 19 million gallons a day New year's day tends to be our lowest water consumption day. It might be six or five mgd But on average it's about 12 And I would just note above that that older intake Uh cannot produce 12 million gallons of water a day The newer one can Um, and those are the two that we're operating on So I throw water pipelines deliver water from the lake uh into an underground structure known as a shore well Um, basically a circular or rectangular Um reservoir in the ground Lake water enters that reservoir um in our case the shore well Dates its original excavation down to bedrock in 1887 an 1887 when that company came and formed a private utility They dug a well down to bedrock And it is what has developed into the current shore well A changes have been made over the the years including structural evaluations and some rehab But the core structure does date to that original excavation Um, although serviceable the shore well has also exceeded this normal working lifetime of 100 years Uh, that's certainly Well exceeded that. Um So what are the problems, uh, you know why am I here talking to you? uh Over the past some of you some of the public might have had awareness of our project And some might not but the problems Are we've got a 30 inch intake and a shore well that have exceeded their normal working lifetimes. Um The 36 inch intake the newer one gets it were to fail which can happen The 30 inch cannot meet average daily demand for the community very close But it really would not produce 12 mgd in a reliable fashion Both of those intake pipelines are subject to winter ice formation This phenomenon has become more common in lake michigan especially in intake pipelines that are not very deep like that 36 inch pipeline And most utilities depending on the year experience and and try to Manage winter time icing That 36 inch intake is a substandard distance offshore most Modern intakes now are at least a mile off the shoreline That one again was installed in 1959 And for whatever reason they went 2,100 feet and and and they stopped The myth is that they ran out of money. I don't know what happened, but they only went 20 100 feet at that point in time One other factor Of utility and subject inspection from from and by the wdnr And they have noted that our low lift pumps those are the pumps that take raw water and send it through the plant Are at or below now the high lake levels that we're seeing So there's a potential for flooding the dnr has noted that as that's an issue of some concern one very big factor is We have no neighboring wadi utilities that are large enough to back us up You know some communities like manatee walk and two rivers Each have a public wadi utility and and actually have an interconnection And are large enough to supply each other in a significant way if one utility had a major failure We don't have a neighbor like that The tana shabuagan does have a municipal water system, but it's not large enough to supply water for the city Along with our wholesale customers. So we're a lone wadi utility in in that sense. We have no means of backup So what should we do about these problems? In 2016 the utility completed a feasibility study and we focused on a new intake pipeline The study was done by a consulting firm out of chicago And ultimately on on much review they recommended the installation of a new 54 inch pipeline But he also recommended the construction of a new shore well You know those two pieces of infrastructure are are intimately related To connect a new pipeline to an old shore well would not make sense for a lot of reasons Uh the new shore well as well would include a new lowless pumping station again to send that raw water through the water treatment plant and finally Out of the feasibility study there was a recommendation that these would be designed for a hundred year lifetime And that's perfectly feasible You know often in today's society. We have a lot of throwaway Uh consumer goods so the even the concept of a hundred year lifetime is it's a little bit foreign But in the water industry Is not and it's achievable as we've seen from infrastructure that we currently operate Um early on this project has really been formative for many many years uh And in uh oh four the utility had approached the city And requested a small easement for the construction of the future intake pipeline and facility And you'll see here an overhead shot of the wadi utility adjacent to volrat park You'll see again at the wadi utility buildings pretty much occupy the entire parcel of land There's some very steep shorelands of the south Uh, but the area that we requested an easement For was north shown by the hatch rectangle about 60 feet by 120 feet Um and the city at that time did not want to sell property to the wadi utility But they did agree to Provide an easement for construction and operation of a future intake facility Um, so that's where we would like to locate this this new facility And obviously it's close to the current plant which is a benefit and and economical It's also important to note that The facility of the raw water facility Could also supply raw water to a different water treatment plant in the future Where that may be we don't exactly know how far in the future We don't exactly know the current water treatment plant itself has good lifetime left in it But what we would be building here is actually a piece of a future water plant You know some decades down down the road That area of volrat park if if you're not familiar familiar is kind of a flat sill area right by the shore It's not visible from the roadway at all Uh, it does have one disc golf a whole Along it But it's the low area. They're just north of of the water treatment plant. Um The new 54 inch intake pipeline We would like to run it out about 6 000 feet And and that would have a capacity of about 36 million gallons of water a day You can see here a little bit of an image of Where that pipe would go out One reason you want to go a significant length offshore is to get away from runoff from the Pigeon River the Cheboygan River Uh, 6 000 feet is is a good Distance out. You also want to be in deeper water that helps reduce icing potential It just gives you a little better source of water Um, unfortunately the lake michigan, uh, uh, bottom Of slope is very gradual But you have to go a long ways out to gain much depth Um, but at this length we'd be in about 50 some feet of water, which is a very uh, contemporary standard for lake michigan intakes The building itself is very modest It'd be about a 50 foot by 80 foot masonry building and here you see a schematic of it um It takes architectural features from Kind of the core of the water treatment plant itself, which was built in 1929 nice lintels above the doorway nice brick features otherwise pretty pretty simple but resembling the design of the water treatment plant itself The drawing might be a little hard to see but within the building we would have that shore well Again, that's basically in this case a rectangular structure Almost like a basement very deep into the ground where the raw water enters We have pumps located in that shore well. We have the electrical equipment for those pumps backup generators if we were to lose electricity And a small chemical feed room for some pretreatment of the water if we were to have taste and odor issues Uh often we want to get that treatment started right when the water comes in the door so to speak So very small building not not occupied on the daily basis monitored remotely But very near to the water treatment plant, which does have an operator on duty monitoring operations on the clock um One one-story building pretty simple overall um Of course cost is a factor in infrastructure replacement. What what was cost? How do we pay for it? um The current estimate of construction cost the 35 million dollars for the sound of your lifetime pieces of infrastructure Uh, that's an estimate. We're just beginning a detailed design phase so that that That's like to some change, but that's that your head's evolved as as we've gotten more and more detailed and further in the process Um, that's a lot of money. That would be the largest Infrastructure replacement project for the utilities certainly in the last 60 years if not 80 years A very large huge piece of infrastructure replacement um The utility has been working with the Wisconsin public finance professional professionals and carol worth on finding options We have a long-standing relationship with carol and has helped us fund Numerous projects and in the past We have some options State of Wisconsin provides what are what's known as safe drinking water loans On a project like this they would offer a 30-year loan Um, those have certain benefits low interest rates. They have some downsides. They're not callable uh And a few other issues Uh, the private water revenue bond market is also available And in that that market we could seek funding of 30 or even 40 year terms You know again 40 years is a long time if you're building a very short lived project or for a hundred year project 40 years of funding is not entirely unreasonable to consider Water revenue bonds are basically loans against the future revenues of the wadi utility and again We've used that tool in the past on various projects And uh, we do have possible FEMA BRICS uh grant projects Uh, mayor van der steen has been helping us Review some of those we we feel we might have a small portion of the project that might qualify for a BRICS grant here And we're in the process of applying for that For about 2.6 million dollars of that cost um one of the important things to know is that the funding plan would not have an impact on on property taxes or the city budget All the wadi utility debt is paid out of those water revenues again So this borrowing would not impact anyone's property taxes or the city budget uh The new annual debt service Again, depending on what the actual costs would be But roughly they'd be about 1.6 to 2 million dollars per year in debt service and You know public utilities are not allowed to have Return on revenue that's exceeding kind of a minimum standard per the state of two to three percent so certainly to Generate an additional 1.6 or 2 million dollars a year is going to take ongoing rates in cases for water rates To cover that debt service. We would need about 22 revenue increase Overcurrent revenues that we're seeing at the utility which are about nine million dollars a year um One the well-established policy of the of the border water commission commissioners is a commitment to spreading rate increases over time as much as possible So that would be the intent here as well And and we've already begun planning in in that light We would not propose or envision a 22 increase in one year, but a phased in uh approach to manage water rate increases in in the future um It's important to look at where are we currently with water rates We're currently very low as you can see from the the bar chart. We're basically at the bottom of water rates in terms of costs For a quarterly water bill 18,750 gallons You'll see the charge here and again When you you see a bill from the water utilities more than this because of the additional charges But just the water portion is what we're comparing here And you can see for sheboygan, you know, it's about 50 350 four dollars Upwards to some of our fellows where it's three times that amount In in other communities So we are very low right now In order to pay for this project, we're not going to be able to stay at the very Low end of water rates in the state But you can see we have a lot of room before we're starting to get even to some of communities like green bay and racine wasa Kind of in the middle to higher range shown here You know, so we've we've seen the need to replace critical infrastructure You know clearly to provide drinking water to the communities is extremely important Our assets are aging. They need they need replacement How do we know it's good investment? um one of the projects that the utility in conjunction with the bubble service commission Completed was a 50 year water demand study looking at future customers growth countywide uh and using a lot of information and different factors and all of that went into Right sizing the design at that 36 million gallon per day level So we didn't set out a thin thin air We actually did a very detailed Look at where we expect growth to occur where it might occur You know might we serve other wholesale customers city of plena who spurred these kind of communities in the future uh to come up with that that Figure as a design of 36 million gallons a day of course in general if you uh have a higher capacity intake pipeline it's going to cost more dollars So we don't want more than we reasonably need we want to right size it in a way that have some basis One of the things that's very important for public utilities and understanding of them is that You know, we we alone don't get to just decide we're going to build this project It actually has to be authorized by the public service commission We would have to submit the project for construction authorization because of its size and one of their key processes is to Uh eliminate or minimize stranded assets that the public is paid for So the pfc is not going to authorize a project that ends up Where it's likely to result in stranded assets they are Objective oversight on on a local public utilities expenditures And they will cut projects. It's not a rubber stamp by any means um So they provide a very good oversight of spending um at the state level um As I mentioned before we're the only large water provider in the county Uh, you know, again, we don't have anyone else we can tap into And in fact to meet some of that 50 year growth if and when it were to occur We have to be positioned and have the infrastructure to do that Um, one of the things the utility has always been committed to is is trying to keep dollars local We take dollars out of the local economy. We try to keep them in the local economy And our projects do often result in in local contractors having work local engineering firms having work such as donahue who's one of the engineer consultants on this project um And an effort to do that as much as possible And and then finally You know as we've seen we've got infrastructure dating to 1887 to 1909 as we delay Costs are only going to increase and and the risk of a catastrophic catastrophic failure goes up as these the pieces of infrastructure age as well They've been very well managed and inspected every year, but The clock is ticking and the time is here to replace them and and we know that And delay would only escalate costs more and more year by year um So just kind of rounding out You know, where where do we go from here? Uh currently the final design phase of the project is is underway and scheduled for completion in in june of 2021 Uh preliminary design has been out We've we've reviewed that with a number of parties dnr public service commission Our our colleagues at the dpw and planning Uh a number of entities that have seen the preliminary design and given us some feedback As well as our own staff um I would be remiss in not mentioning You know, I have the honor of presenting this but of course, this is uh the fruit of labor of many people at the wadi utility and from a technical basis in particular Bill swerinjan and andy wellman Josh Kubo and dan marza check have been very instrumental in the technical review of this project to date um And as we enter final design We'll be fleshing out those details In the spring of 2021 we'll have enough To submit to the public service commission for construction authorization and begin that review process Which is about a 69 month process um We've already met with them a number of times to to get their feedback And to be sure they understand the project the need for the project as well We would like to go out to bid in late 2021 uh And hopefully enter a positive bidding environment You know this project involves the construction installation of pipeline in the bed of lake michigan There aren't a lot of contractors that do that work But there there are some and we would hope to get good competitive bidding if we have a well-designed project um Construction would take at least two seasons given the length of the pipeline We have a possibility of perhaps a second emergency shorter pipeline if that is affordable or not to consider as well Um with those bid results then we would seek The board of water commissioners and council approval of the funding package So at that point in time we would have more details about the funding package And and the best options to minimize the cost Going forward, you know understanding that this is a very costly project and and it certainly is not going to be an expensive regardless of However much we tweak it um We do believe construction could begin as early as 2022 and as I mentioned would would extend to seasons And I think You know just to to close out um Again, I appreciate the opportunity to present this You know pieces of the project have come out in various ways over the past few years It's been envisioned for a long time and we focused on some other priority projects that were less costly and completed those and and now Keep moving forward with this object to replace critical infrastructure and secure the future of drinking water for the community and I guess I will close out with that and be happy to entertain any any questions as best they can Awesome. Thanks so much Joe for that presentation. I We appreciate it. I know you give me a tour of the water utility couple Well, that was a while back You really do got a great team and crew down there Um, so I'll kick it off. Does anyone have any initial questions for joe? I see berts got her hand up Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman. Um, I've got two questions. Joe, uh, you mentioned that The building proper the one that's right there down on the lakefront now as quote Quite a few years of good life left Quite a few years 30 years 40 years 80 years 20 years Um, not 80 years I would say You know, there there are ways to we have portions of the plant that are newer and portions that are older So I would say there are some portions that within 20 to 30 years would would need investment I would say in in the 40 year plus range a large portion of the plant would need significant investment or replacement And then the second question If the funding is 30 to 40 years Hopefully 30 to four years to amortization Is it feasible or have you in the past refinanced? Kind of like a home loan. I believe I've refinanced at least three times So is that in part of the package or once it's set it's that if we go with a state drinking water loan Those are not callable. So those are fixed. You can't do anything with them If we go with the private bond market, those are callable And and yes, as you say, we've had opportunities in the past to call those in and refinance them and Save some money Right now interest rates are very low So I would say That's an advantage in the private market is the ability to do that particularly if interest rates are high when you go in Okay, thank you Mr. Chairman alderman boran go for it jim Thank you, uh, joe Uh, I haven't been out of your your facility for quite a few years, but I did take a tour when I first became an alderman And knowing the layout along the lake shore there. Have there been any erosion problems in the past? or Could there be erosion problems in the future with the erosion along lake michigan? Is that any is that any concern at all or has it been a concern in the past? Yeah, that's that's a great point and and there is a concern and there has been erosion And particularly as the water levels have come up so this past year we we did some Rehabilitation of existing shoreline protection behind the water treatment plant And in the new area proposed uh, there's about shoreline protection system Design that would cost about 2.6 million dollars To secure that shoreline And and that's the portion of the project that we Are in the process of applying for a FEMA brick grant Because those grants are intended to mitigate of Walk due to two disasters like flooding or wave damage um, so yes, we would definitely be Constructing shoreline protection in in that area Currently it has very little there's a little bit of riprap rock, but it is it is eroding. That's for sure Uh, also, uh, joe if any recent projects that you're aware of around the state What funding sources have been taken advantage? Are utilities taking advantage of are they more or less going with with callable loan programs or some of the other programs that you that you referenced A lot of water utilities have been funding projects with safe drinking water loans um They do have lower interest rates than going into the private market And I think it's a combination of how large is the project? What's the lifetime? You know and if you can spread that debt over more years it can have Uh, less rate impact in the short term and that's definitely a factor on a larger project Um, so I think you know many utilities are funding smaller projects using safe drinking water loans But larger projects then there tends to be some advantage in the private bond market um, but safe drinking water loans are certainly Uh, a path that we would consider especially in the 30 year term the 25 your term would would be too short Thank you Thank you. I got a question older feldy. Yep go for barb Thank you, um superintendent, um We've talked about loans. Um, have you discussed grants at all? Is that possible? We have discussed the fema brick grant Often for the entire project But having said that fema brick does Is focused on certain types of projects And we're not really sure this is only the first year of the fema brick program building resilient infrastructure We're not exactly sure that the whole project would be a great application um, but we are applying for the shoreline protection, which again is the 2.6 million dollar portion of the project Based on the outcome of that application. We we might try to pursue the whole project Um, otherwise in the drinking water side of things there aren't a lot of grant Programmed out there. That's that's why there's a lot of interest in brick Um, and and why we've we've jumped on that bandwagon Uh, there may be a few other smaller grant programs But I really don't have any knowledge of of one that would be large enough for the entire project other than the brick program I'd suggest that even if it's not a whole project um Grant that you'd go after any amount of money because rather than raising rates I would rather see us tie into some grants That's it Thank you. Thanks barb Any other questions from any other elders? Mike Thank you. Thank you very much. Um, I think one of the things everybody needs to understand about the fema brick program As these are competitive grants across the nation So while joe is putting together something for the first round Um, the I think there's 500 million dollars available In the first round the next round is supposed to be funded at a billion dollars. So, um, You know, just so you understand why Uh, it's not a sure thing. It's it's more than just somebody saying yes or no It's going to be based on all the other grant requests that come in and and and how they dole them out Thanks, Mike Any other questions from folks Ryan Hey, David, how's it going? Say mr. Chairman, I just if I could just um, I just want to first of all Um, I support joe and all the project. This is a very important piece of infrastructure Um long term for our community. So it's a very important process project and and I Want to advocate, uh, obviously for for this for this project to move forward I guess joe if you couldn't I my question is Really surrounding the wholesale customers and how does that factor into The contractor the pay Um moving forward on the depth service of this and ultimately I mean, um If it if if in the future for instance these contractor wholesalers if they demand more water Um, and they're using more water Is it then under contract and under this depth service that they pay their fair share buy into that? Not that it could potentially take away Or that it really ends up being a burden on the city ratepayers So I'm just curious in terms of how There that wholesale connection Cost factors into the cost of this project Well, this is where the concept of Public utilities regulated by the public service commission is is critical I don't know. We don't set our own rates. The common council doesn't set water rates the board of water doesn't set water rates The state public service commission determines fair Water rates for each public utility And they also determined fair water rates for wholesale customers based on their uh usage of in all kinds of factors as a A burden so to speak on on the supplying utility so the wholesale customers Uh are factored in based on their usage Their their size their demands upon the system and in each category of our expenses So in no way are they getting of A free ride or a bargain when we incurred debt They're paying their fair share as determined by The regulator of public utilities um You know one example of that if you look at the water rates in in a sheboygan falls or the village of kohler They're considerably higher than the water rates in the city of sheboygan um That's because they have to take The charges that they pay for our water and add their own expenses on top of that and and they result in much higher water rates in those communities than in the city So there there really shouldn't be any concern that somehow our wholesale customers are Are are not contributing because as rates go up Their rates go up as well Uh each time we go in for a rate case In fact, we'd like to have more wholesale customers because they provide that growth that we need Uh a public utility has a lot of fixed expense You know, we have fixed infrastructure if we sell 10 percent more water uh That's that's a great thing to help offset that that's fixed cost basis So yeah, I understand the concern. You know, maybe somehow kohler Sheboygan falls are not contributing, but they would certainly be Paying their fair share as determined by the psc for their wholesale rates each time we have a rate case that's adjusted and and treated accordingly with their rate models um Based on that is then they're not Are they under contract? We have wholesale water agreements and have had for decades with those communities. Yes So so in other words, I mean with this project They're going to agree that they're going to remain wholesale customers for the duration of the the loan instrument Or I'm just this hypothetically if kohler and falls decide at some point, you know what? We have our own infrastructure in place. Maybe we will Go off and do our own water utility and start putting wells in and then not Get water from the city of sheboyas Well, if they have their own water utilities, we're the supplier of wholesale water to those communities Um, we have an ongoing wholesale water agreement Uh, I'm not quite sure what your concern is that that somehow we may lose them Or I don't quite understand what you're asking Well, that's exactly it. If if we supply them the the water What if they decide that uh, they don't want to receive our water in the future um, and You know Develop their own water system in terms of own source through wells. For instance I just for the long for the cost of this and the their usage of the water I'm just I would be concerned and if that if they're not contractually obligated Um, there there could be that risk with Well, my concern is having a safe reliable supply of water for the whole community The wholesale customers Are receiving water that's very affordable. It's very high quality Uh, I don't know a hypothetical that they may try to install groundwater systems Is possible, but there's all kinds of things that are possible that could happen in the future um Joe what percentage of the water that you pump currently is is diverted to wholesale supply? um Yeah, that's uh a good question Between the two It's about 25 percent Thank you Any other questions from anyone else say one quick question? I would uh, this is alderman born again. Uh, mr. Chairman I would just like to follow up on what director bevel was asking joe How far do those contracts go out with uh, shabuigan falls in core? They're not fixed period contracts. They're ongoing wholesale water agreements So if they decided that they do not Want to receive water They could make a petition to uh Extract themselves from the agreement. I'm not aware of that ever happening um You know, there's all kinds of things that potentially could happen Now one thing to keep in mind Uh, regardless of those wholesale customers We need this infrastructure And although we've right-sized it to what we think is going to be 50 year demand growth Uh, if it's somewhat lower Because the cost differential to install a somewhat smaller facility is is not very large um You know the concern that we're going to risk That we risk losing a big customer. That's that's part of what utilities manage and work with routinely routinely in our planning You know, we have very large industrial customers in the city of shabuigan We hope to keep them However, it's pretty hard to predict the the exact future um You know, if one of those were to Go out of business and shutter and not be replaced by other water users that would certainly impact Our financial plans as well So I I think, you know, this isn't an inter-community problem I think the problem is growth we want to have good growth to support finances of the water utility and You know, I think That's kind of my focus Not so much what might potentially happen With our wholesale customers Well, the problem the problem as I see it joe if that would happen if we would lose those two wholesale customers With this project of this size and with the rate Going up as you say more to the mid-range and from the on the lower end If we lose lose those whole wholesale customers Much more of the burden is going to is going to fall on the city of shabuigan water customers And that's why it's a little scary that you know that these whole these Wholesale customers don't have some type of an agreement into the future that they're going to remain customers Yeah, I understand that point, but in the same way Those customers could have made decisions like that in the past and You know, again, we're talking about critical infrastructure and Whether or not we have those two wholesale customers and we gained some other large customer in in five ten fifteen years You know that that doesn't have a huge impact on the size of this project as finance over 30 or even 40 years if there's some impact, but I think that to kind of plan about a A catastrophe catastrophic loss of those customers Would mean You know basically trying to either reduce the size of the project Or trying to to force them into a longer term agreement um I mean I could certainly review with attorney adams the agreements we have and You know the ease of withdrawing from those but You know, we have no reason to think those communities have any interest and suddenly, you know drilling wells and going down that whole A route is trying to provide water by by a different means older older donahue I know this discussion has gone on for a very long time and we really do need to get moving but One of the reasons we annexed The golf course in wilson is the thought that sooner or later We're going to force the entire town of wilson into our water system to build heights for that purpose um And I understand uh david biebel's concern And you know, there's always the law of unintended consequences. I mean that you could certainly, you know enter start begin to enter into more long-term agreements with With these various wholesale producers um, that's something to think about But then Will we be looking at needing to bargain for reduced rates in order to enter into a contract or a contractual relationship? um You know, there are all sorts of things to be thinking about so I think probably one of the Ways around this and maybe david biebel can even provide this is what is the possibility for the village of kohler and shawing and fall uh, both with growing industrial bases to secure Groundwater um Source of water um We know that groundwater and unfortunately in the state of wisconsin is not very good Now it might be good enough for industrial purposes, but uh, you know I want I don't want to live in a place with the well, uh, and so Those are those are all things to look at now on the other hand the town of shawing and did develop its own water source and um Or do they just do they just distribute joe? Do we provide the water? I can't remember Yes, but you may want to do show Trying to put a ribbon around this Is to see what The psc can provide in terms of the possibility for groundwater development at fairly high levels and And kind of take it from there We may want to look at other municipalities that have you know gone from a producer-consumer relationship to a contractual relationship If that's happened, I don't know if it has You know how that's worked out And What are you? Oh, we're happy to enter into a five-year agreement Well, then what happens after five years? I mean I'm just saying, you know, there's balancing here and And maybe the the board of water commissioners wants to look into The other alternatives that these wholesale Consumers might have so well, I'd be after long enough. It's quarter after Time to move on I would just like to add an agenda We should not lose sight of the fact that 75 percent of what we're looking at Is for us in the city and we have wonderfully safe Good tasting water. So we we need to keep our eye on the Longer term instead of the You know, we've got to be aware of this, but We do get 75 percent of really good quality water. So Um, might I add extremely cheap water compared to what other people are paying. So Yeah In the beginning I support this project. It's very critical. We need it regardless It's just something, you know, we in terms of consideration in terms of those wholesale under contract, but Um, regardless as joe has mentioned it did this is this is a need um long term it's just there's there The wholesale is somewhat um, kind of a Without it without a contractual agreement. It's it's there. So I just wanted to make everyone aware of that This is Alderman. This is Alderman born, mr. Chairman. Uh, we uh, we as we're as we're developing Sheboygan and especially our our south point business park over here in my 10th district This water issue is a huge selling point for for the city of sheboygan for developers to come in and and You know, do their industrial plants or whatever development we get out of Eventually get out there with all of the nightmares down in the Milwaukee area and the walk ashore area And all of the hassles have been going on down there for walk ashore to get decent water Uh, this is a huge selling point for sheboygan for development and I support the projects But we just have to make sure we dot all our eyes and cross all our teeth because of this huge expenditure. Thank you All right. Thanks everybody Any further comments or questions? All right, seeing none adjourned There's been a motion to adjourn In the second all those in favor of adjourning, please state I Hi Anyone opposed share vote share votes. I we're adjourned at 8 16. Thank you everybody