 Are we good. Yes. I miss moiston. That's for miss moiston. Are we ready? Yes. You guys are all set. Thank you. Hi. Good evening, everybody. Happy spring. And this is the. March 17th meeting of the community safety working group being called to order at 533 p.m. We have a quorum. So I'd like to go quickly into. A roll call. And I will start with miss Ferrara. Here. Miss Owen. Here. Mr. Vernon Jones. Here. Miss Pat. Yeah. Here. Miss Owen. Here. Okay. You get two votes tonight, Brianna. Was that. No, you called her twice. So we're like, she gets two votes. Yeah, you know, it's so fun. You won't believe this. There were two pictures of her. Honestly, I'm sitting here. One just disappeared. I don't know. Awesome. Well, anyway, I'm glad you're here twice. So that means we get the benefit. Double benefit of your brilliance. So thank you for being here. So let's, let's dive right in. To a brief description. Of the. Of the agenda. We will dispense with. Proving the minutes of the, the. 217 meeting. Until a later date. We will go directly into reports and comments. Clearly public comment is part of our agenda. Every meeting. And we will see if there are any. Comments from our. The members of our community safety working group. Should there be any from them as a way to. Kickstart the meeting. The agenda in terms of our action items and discussion items. We'll have on a regular basis, a consultant discussion. Segment. We have for those. If there are people in the audience who. Are here for the first time we had our first meeting with our consultant group. Seven generations movement collective. We're very happy to have them. We're very happy to have them. And we're very happy to have them begin and their work with us. And we will. Leave this in place on a regular basis as they come in, and we schedule. Interactive meetings with them. On their work. And in terms of following up on, on the contract. Agreement that we all have. This evening they are not here, but we will. I know Mr. Wachelman, you sent out a final copy of the contractual agreement, so we'll see if there's any commentary that people want to make on that. And then we're going to go into Alternative Safety Services Community Responders Program. We've talked about that before, and I won't get into great detail around that, but there is some work we have to do as a community safety working group to keep us on that track of strong interest and direction that the community safety working group is taking to move toward that goal. The invitation to attend meeting will be a discussion with the group about when and how we invite Chief Scott Livingstone and any of his selected staff members from the Amherst Police Department to come and have a conversation with us, and then, you know, any recommendations that coming from the group that we want to put forward. So again, following that is pretty much our boilerplate of upcoming events, next meeting date, and any other topics we need to raise that were not previously raised, and then we will adjourn. So that being the case, I'd like to move directly to public comment, and as I'm looking at the numbers there, Ms. Moistur, it looks like I only see seven of us. Do we have any community members in attendance? No, we do not. No, I will wait just a minute or so to see if anybody comes out. Sometimes people join late. OK, seeing that the public comment is the first part of our meeting and people are familiar with public comment within open meeting guidelines, we will proceed since there are none, if that is the case, Ms. Moistur, that's correct, right? OK. So community safety working group members, any opening comments? Welcome, Ms. Walker. Hi. Any opening comments from any one of the membership before we begin? Certainly, if not, we can incorporate them in the body of our conversations going forward. If no one else has one, I have one comment I'd like to make, because this is kind of, it's personal, and I think it's in keeping with the kinds of stuff that we're thinking about on a daily basis, not to diminish or put aside any of the other tragedies that happen on a regular basis to members of our BIPOC community across the United States. There was a horrific shooting recently, and there were a number of Asian women in particular who were targeted. I think just as a, I think we as a group try to acknowledge when injustices are being done to, that we identify, we comment on them and mention and talk about it. But I think as a group, we certainly condemn and, excuse me one second, we condemn and strongly decry these kinds of things happening. And I was particularly struck by the fact that they were all women, they were, you know, they were Asian, possibly Asian women. This is not the first time. There have been other incidents where women were targeted by, at least in the time I'm recalling, people who were characterized as white supremacist terrorists. And I think, you know, we're in a world that is very dangerous right now. And I think our work is more, is very important, not only from, you know, looking at police and safety in Amherst, but as a more global commentary that we're joining the world in trying to erase, eradicate, redirect this very cruel and vicious energy that's in our society right now. So I just want to acknowledge that I was, you know, I happen to be talking about it a lot today. So I'm a little filled with it. And again, going back to the top of what I said, it's not to diminish anything else that's not happening in the world at this time. But certainly, given the fact that this group has a number of women who are leaders in our community and in our state, and doing all this kind of work, and to see something like this happen just drew me right back to the fact that I'm working with a number of brilliant women, women of color. And and so I just had to say that out loud and I I'm almost compelled to to write something about it because it's just one of those things, you know, this is terrorism at its worst, as far as I'm concerned. And so I'm just saying that that that's an event in my life right now. So I'm just bringing it forward. And not that we have to talk about it necessarily, but I just wanted to voice that and let you know that it did impact impact me, as I'm sure it may have impacted any of you. And I would certainly not close off commentary on it at this point, if anyone wants to say anything before you move into the agenda. So thank you for listening to me. Miss Ferreira. Yeah, I mean, thank you, Mr. Wiley for saying that, because obviously it's all, you know, I know it's on my mind to that was the first thing I kind of read when I woke up this morning and it was just like, oh, you know, in terms of just the impact, right, as a woman of color, you know, all of it is in terms of, you know, we all have to do this work together and we have to stand up for one another. The other part, too, that's been heavy on my minds, because I've been getting these and I probably I'll share it with you all this article about this Filipino American male, his name is Angelo Quintos, and I don't know if you all have heard of them. But basically, you know, same type of thing, you know, you know, a knee by the police on his neck and he passed away, he had mental health issues and passed away after the knee being on his neck, I think like five minutes, don't quote me on the time, but it was, you know, several minutes and everything. And so basically, the Asian community is saying, OK, why aren't they protesting? That's protest going on out there, too, you know, in regards to this, right, similar to, again, George Floyd, which was another horrific incident. And so, you know, as we see in terms of BIPOC, you know, situations and impact, we have to, it has to be something there that we're all, you know, working together, bringing all of these atrocities to light. And that obviously our allies, you know, our white Caucasian allies are also on board to end these atrocities, that we can feel safe in our community. But yet again, today's incident kind of made me think about Angelo Quintos and then so many others, right, that are out there, we don't hear about. If you find the space and time to do so, perhaps you could share that with the. Yeah, I definitely will. I've not heard that name before, but I think it would be, you know, it just adds to the litany of stories and articulations of, you know, of hate and violence, which we're trying to undo, you know, under the certainly under the the umbrella of racism and and social justice for sure. But I think these stories while they are so numerous, you know, sometimes just highlighting one or two reminds of the the the importance of our work and the gravity of our work at the same time. And I'm just happy to be working with folks who get that. There are some groups of people work with they have no clue about this. And I think all of us on the screen and certainly people in our audience who have joined us have have a clear understanding of what it takes to to undo this this current context in a way that helps us all. So that that that was it. And thank you, Mr. Any other comments before we move on? I'll just say thank you to both of you for raising those. You're welcome. So and so we're well, we're all of us are in good company. And, you know, this this is this is our work. So I'm happy to be doing it with you. And, you know, as we say, let's let's let's get going. Let's get going. Do we have to do. So thank you, all of you again for your ongoing work again. As I said, and this was in collaboration with Miss Miss Moisten, too. And I think it was a smart decision because we did not really know how the trajectory of meetings would go forward with our consultant group. They were here last week. They're not here this week. I think it's something we have to get a handle on to understand, you know, when and how and what kind of guiding agenda will be in place when we do interact with folks, because this is a major part of our work right now. And again, we're happy to have them on board for today. We're not. So perhaps I'd like to just maybe open it up to think a little bit out loud about this. Since there seems to be, if I'm not mistaken, Miss Moisten and an interest by the group, if I'm over speaking, please, please correct me, but there's an interest in with the seven gen. Movement collective to appearing at next week's meeting. And if that's not correct, I'll stop talking. But if it's if it is correct, we should plan for that and have an interaction with with the group beforehand. Miss Moisten, is that my my understanding correct? I'm off. So they're looking for a point person to communicate with, whether that be at the chair or the vice chair, but they're looking for a point person to communicate back and forth with. So our meetings won't typically necessarily be. They. They won't necessarily attend all of our meetings, unless perhaps you ask them to do to their own schedules. But they are looking for a point person. So it could either be the chair, vice chair, or any of the members here, whoever would like to do it. I just thought perhaps you guys would like to vote on that or nominate someone, if you will. And just before we, if I may, just before entering into that conversation with with the community safety working group, the point person, and I think this is known to all of us, has to be a person that could certainly interact with on a fairly regular basis with the with the consultant group, but also within the parameters of what the open meeting law requires. And, you know, so that the business of the group and the business associated with the town in terms of its this contractual agreements are not breached. So, you know, this would mean that the person who is a point person would be also working very closely with Ms. Moisten, as the late liaison to the group, and a lot of communications will be going back and forth through that filter, if you will. Is that correct, Ms. Moisten? Yes. Okay. So any any initial comments from anyone on on our working group? I know we have a couple of members not here. Mr. Cage is not here right now. He actually said that he was going to be unable to attend today. Okay. And did you hear from Ms. Bowman by any chance? I did not, but I did reach out to her just a few like before the meeting and just a few minutes ago. Okay. So Ms. Bowman may show up. She may not, but just acknowledging that there are a couple of members who are not here. Any other comments, thoughts from the from the working group on what we're about the idea of a point person working with the with our new consultant group. And Ms. Pat has her hand raised. Yes, Ms. Pat, how are you? Good. I got to tell you, it's really interesting. There are times I see your hand and then there's times I don't because you be a great, you be a great mime. What do you mean? You were sitting here like it was so still I didn't even recognize it. Oh, okay. Is that better? I'm old, so I have to find I'm old, but thank you. Go right ahead, speak. Okay. It says to me naturally that it will be you, the chair and the co-chair. To be the point people. I don't know if anybody have a problem with that. Can you tell me your reason why? Because that's why you're chair and co-chair. You represent us. No, that's not why I'm chair. I'm chair to keep you rascals in line. But I hear what you say respectfully. I do. I mean, that's what the town council does. I'm assuming. Yeah. You know, the chair has my responsibility. Yeah. I understand. Thank you, Miss Pat. I mess with this path because I've known. I know you're messing with me. That's why. I've known her for so long and this, you know, you, this has got to be a fun group going through, even though we have hard work to do. Ms. Ferreira. Yeah. I agree with Miss Pat in terms of the chair, vice chair, but the only thing is to, I mean, I'm also good with either or also whatever works better in terms of logistics, you know, because sometimes they just want one person so that it doesn't have to be both kind of responding back. But yeah. Both or either or. Of the comments. Ms. Walker. Any thoughts? I also agree. I think I would be fine with either the chair or the co-chair. Whoever is more comfortable. I don't have any objection to that. I don't have any objection to that. Mr. Vernon Jones. I'm certainly comfortable with either chair or vice chair. And I mean, perhaps we even want. The chair to be the. The fault person, but if you're unavailable, they could. Talk with Miss own. Okay. But. Miss own any comments. I think what Mr. Vernon Jones said would probably work the best. In your absence, or if you'd like me to either or. Okay. I'm, I'm an older. Person at this point. And either or just bothers the hell out of me. So. I'd be happy to do this. I would be happy to. To identify myself as the point person. If the group would allow miss Owen and I to have a conversation about this and how we would manage, you know, manage the mechanics of this. Then we, we would go forward, but I would do that. I know we have a very tight timeline. So we don't have a lot of time to be. You know, deliberating this kind of thing. And it's pretty straightforward. So. If that's the, the. The wish of the group. I will be the point person. And I will work with miss Owen as, as the vice chair of the group. To work out any logistical issues we may have in the course of our work with the current. With the group. Does that sound reasonable? Yes. Thank you for, for that. You're welcome. Okay. Email coming. Miss Owen. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know right now, but soon. We may even leave as moistened out of this one. We don't know. But anyway, thank you all for your vote of confidence too. By the way, thank you. And I, I, I hope both of us can. Interact with you through miss moisten. If we have questions or things that we need your input as a part of the discussion. I just want to say thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. Happy to do it. And. So any other. Issues around. Your, your, your, your contributions, knowledge, experience, et cetera. So. But knowing that we're doing it is the start. Consultant discussion. Any questions? Concerns. About the. The final agreement. Thank you, by the way, Mr. Mr. Bachman. For giving that to us. This is a lot of hard work. And thank you for focusing on the first four pages. Yep. So it was your committee that actually walked through that with your, with the consultant. So they did the leg work. Of course that committee did a great job. Thank you committee. By the way, I should have said that previously. Ms. Yeah, so I have a couple of things about the consultants that I wanted to ask. Like one, I did see the kind of back and forth around the data. So, you know, obviously, you know, and I understand, you know, it's just super, super busy, but I saw the communication with miss moisten saying that she was going to get them the data and some of, some of what they need to come and pick up. So yeah, I think the sooner we can get that to them, the better in terms of all the, you know, the recordings, the surveys, the information from the APD because I, you know, and then any other, you know, resources we've gotten right from the community, like those emails from the community that we've gotten and stuff like that. I think kind of handed it all to them so that they can have that and can start analyzing, especially that APD information that we got. That's far. Then the other thing too, in terms of, you know, we are talking about, you know, whether they should come to our meetings or what's, what's the situation kind of moving forward. So for me, I think, I don't know, there's a necessity for them to come to the meetings unless we need them to come to the meetings, right? And so I think we need to kind of spend some time thinking, okay, do we need them to come next meeting? Yes. So they can report on XYZPQ. But I would like kind of like a weekly, right? For them to send us in, they're not coming to the meeting, like a little one-page or like, hey, we've worked on blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, so that, you know, I know that they're hitting some of the points that we need them to hit, you know, so if they don't come to the meeting, okay, well, have you been working on everything so that you've been updated, like little, little updates. And then lastly, in terms of the contract, I did look at the contract and one of my questions, I don't have it in front of me, but one of the questions that I had, okay, I just found it, was that in the contract, it has these dates that are kind of like after April 2nd, April 9th, in terms of the reports to us. So did I misread? That's the only part. And I think for part A and part B, the dates were like the 23rd and in the 30th, I thought it was supposed to get it, get us something by April 2nd. I don't have the, I was trying to pull the contract up right now. I don't have it in particular. I have it, just one moment. Yeah, like for instance, yeah, for instance, in the first one for part A, the deadlines, it's saying like outreach completed by April 6th, then first draft of the report by April 23rd, and then a preliminary report, April 26th, final report, the 30th. Is this the section? Sorry. I just want to make sure I'm where you are. The payment schedule for part A? Well, deadlines, deadlines. Okay. Yeah. I'm just looking at the deadlines. So part A deadline, it's saying April 6th for the outreach, then April 23rd for the first draft, preliminary report, April 26th, and then final report, the 30th. Then when we go to part B, deadlines, it's saying first draft, April 13th, and the final report, April 23rd. So that's what, that's where my confusion lies. Mr. Bachmann. I'm just saying it's page two, I think, Jennifer. Yeah, it is. Yeah. You passed it. That's right. It was right there for part B, deadlines. Right. But part, part A is up on page two. Part A is on two. Yeah. Yeah. Part A is there. So let's focus on part A for a moment. Now Ms. Ferrer, if I can just like walk us all through this. So part A, deadlines. What are your questions and concerns about that? So unless, you know, deadlines have been elongated and I don't know about it. I thought Mr. Bachmann said that he needed the first report with budget, not budget, but like our recommendations in terms of alternative, you know, forms of, you know, in terms of policing by April 9th, so that we can get the budget in. I thought we were supposed to get a report from them, a preliminary report by April 2nd. So I don't see any of that in either part A or part B. What happened to that? Did we get. Let's stop. Let's stop right there and see if that's a question we can examine before we go. We don't want to muddle it too much. Mr. Brockman. Oh, so this is this. These deadlines were a lot of discussion were part of the major part of the discussion with the contractor. The concern with the contractor was being able to meet the requirements and they didn't want to agree to something that they didn't feel they could truly meet with a quality product. And I think the representatives and they could speak for themselves felt that the community safety working group wanted a quality project product. You know, I was part of, I was involved with that. So I was listening and participating in that conversation. I understand where, you know, we have to make compromises. And so while as much as I need the information, I was hoping to get the information by April 15th, so that it's going to be a tight squeeze no matter what. But as long as I'm staying involved, I'm hearing what the working group is coming up with. I feel like I'm pretty, I can sort of manage that into the budget process. So, okay. I mean, the reality. What does that mean in terms of dates vis-à-vis the contract? Yeah. So I'm in agreement with the dates that the, that we put into the contract. I mean, the reality was, if we were looking at, we're looking at March 17th and for them to have a report to you in 16 days was probably unrealistic. Because they really needed to do the outreach first to create the, the work, the baseline for the report, the information that we're going to present to you. So, so, but what does that mean in terms of reality about getting our recommendations in for the budget? Because that's my concern. My concern though is that, you know, what we've been tasked with is to get these things in so that then they can be in, in, in for the budget be taken into consideration for this, this next fiscal year. So I don't also want to lose that opportunity. I get it that, you know, the consultants are saying they don't have enough time to kind of meet that deadline. So where does that leave us? I mean, does that mean we need to do the report and just make sure because, you know, at this point, whatever needs to happen needs to happen, but I'm just like, I'm concerned about that. The committee is the community safety working group is responsible for getting reports to the, the town manager on the agreed upon dates. And we talked about with some mutually, which mutually agreed upon changes that may happen in this visa be the, the hiring of the consultant group. So I think, I think the questions Ms. for ever is asking is how now are we, you know, what does our calendar literally look like? You know, when, when, and I'm just, I'm breaking this down in a very simplistic way, but I think it might be helpful. What does this, the CSWG need to have on Mr. Valkerman's desk at what date? And then we're also talking about, we're working with the community safety working, because working with a consultant group, what's our relationship with it? What are, what's being filtered through us. To get this report done. So I mean, you know, these are kind of a little bit roundabout questions, but those are kind of kind of fun minutes down in some way, Mr. I think our subcommittee agreed to the dates in the contract because Mr. Bokemann said, as long as he had reports by these dates, that was satisfactory, but that was with the understanding that we would be making some decisions and sort of laying out where we're headed. report so that Mr. Bachmann can be working on budget implications. Even before he gets final reports, but that we would be able this. As I understand it, Mr. Bachmann assured us this would not limit our input. As long as we adhere to these dates, it would not limit our input into the budget at all. Is that is that correct Paul. Yes, it is. I mean, again, it's, I think it's going to be a conversation. You're going to have these conversations with the consultants all along the way. So there should be no surprises coming up by April 23rd when you get it. You should be well aware of what's going to be incorporated. The Britain report to you should have been digested through with the committee. I mean, with the, with your consultant prior to that. So you know what's going to be in the report and I should as well. Exactly. I think that that's my understanding too. I think what I'm circling back to an early discussion we just had. About the importance of. Having sort of this lifeline, if you will, between the consultant group. Miss own and myself. As we're sort of co joined there in this process. We're able to keep keep. No tight track of what's going on so it informs the process going forward so we don't breach the contractual agreements. That we've had where we're on there on time with what they're doing. We're on time with our recommendations and we're on time with being able to share information both with the community safety working. The town and the public in general. I also want to echo what Mr. Paul said and Mr. Ross. I also heard from the consultant. In our subgroup that they needed time to recruit their ambassadors and it needs time for them to do their part training thing with ambassadors and disembodied ambassadors would then, you know, get people that will work with them for time to get the information they need. So it's not just their work, their outreach is not just sending out survey. They have to, you know, it requires more time for them to do the work right. And so I was very glad that the town officials, Mr. Paul and Mr. Delaney were very flexible in negotiating with dates. So I'm comfortable with the dates that we have. I think it's a good point. They want a point person to become checking in with and that would be our chair and the co-chair. Ms. Deborah, you have suggested for them to do weekly reports. I think by 23rd, by April 30th, we will have a good sense of what, you know, their recommending that will add to our own too. So I'm very comfortable with the dates. Thank you, Ms. Pat. Perfect contribution to this, this conversation. You know, I think it's coming together, you know, for me, certainly at least about what our next steps need to be. I don't want to suspend this discussion. And move it forward unless we've heard from everybody in terms of what their. You know, understanding is where we're going. Mr. Yeah. So I think with this, Ms. Farar has identified a key piece of this in that. There has to be regular reporting, very tight communication. Because the timeframes are so tight, you can't, we, we can't let anything drift at all in order to get to the conclusion that we need to get to. So you can't get to April 15th and say, oh, we need, you know, we need an extension. We need to get to April 16th. So I think it's, it won't be, it won't be feasible. So I think everybody needs to understand that that may one day is, is immutable. It cannot be moved. And so that's, I need a few days before that to process and incorporate things. What date do you want it? I think we said April 26th. Okay. I'm only asking that because I didn't have it in my, my screen here. So wait. So just to clarify, you, you want the, that's what we've put at the deadline preliminary report approved by the community safety working group will be presented to the town manager on April 26th. I see it. And we will have seen a preliminary report before then. So we, I will know. Yeah. Yeah. On the, on the 23rd, they'll have the first draft. Yeah. And then that will, that will allow you to get things in for this fiscal year's budget. Yes. We will have something in this fiscal year's budget that clear. That's we're not going to miss that. Okay. Good. So I just want to check with the, you know, I guess Mr. Backelman and our, our community safety working group. Um, we, we have an initial charge. That we're trying to live up to certainly. And this preliminary report has to reflect that initial charge in, in ways that see that we're. Acting in a consistent. And, uh, purposeful manner. And I, I believe, I don't know if this was something we, you know, there's so much going on right now. I may be speaking out of out of pocket here, but. Uh, we want to be clear. About in terms of the preliminary report. What it is. That we want to be, we want to make sure is in their preliminary report. So that we're not having to double back and try to. Uh, recover some information or recover some input, whatever could have put in. In a timely manner. So, um, I think we have some understanding what's in that limit. Preliminary report. And I, I defer this, this question to the whole group as well as Mr. Backelman. Um, I think we're clear on what we have to. To bring forward, but it would be helpful if you could rearticulate. If you haven't already. You're written. What, what are the essential pieces of this preliminary report? You want to hear. And be able to, to talk about so that we, we don't miss the mark on this. This is a very important piece because the preliminary. Is the foundation for the final. And I want to be sure that we're, we're all on the same page. Um, I think that's a really important point, Mr. Wiley. I think in, in, in fact, so the consultant is to serve is here to serve the community safety working group and you're, and you're, and you're, what you're trying to pull together. You might want to say early on in the process, we'd like to build an outline of the elements of the report. So you know what they're going, what the, and you might ask them to lay out a draft of what the outline would look like. So you, you say, Oh yes, that's, it doesn't have to have the substance in it, but you might say, this is going to give us the information we need once you fill in the blanks, but just like you're writing a college paper, you say, what is the outline looking like? And that might help you keep this on the front burner as you, you know, in your course of your weekly meetings during the rest of March and beginning of April to say this is where, yes, we understand we're both in agreement. I worry about communication and that's why I'm so glad you have the point people of the chair and the vice chair for immediate answers, questions, answers to questions that the consultant may have. But I think, you know, if you said, let's, let's lay out what, let's be clear with our consultant what we are expecting. The, the invitation for bid was one document, but you might want to become having more of an iterative conversation on that. Thank you. And I'm asking that and I do want to hear some more input from other people. I'm asking that because as you know, I've heard from attending meetings previously yourself. We have a lots of thoughts and ideas that are informed by research, research that we've, we've examined articles and resources that you and Miss Moyston have sent to us. So we're not sitting on a rock somewhere, you know, so there's a lot of information on there. we're exchanging information, we're talking about a lot of things. And I think the trajectory that the conversation has between the consultant group and Ms. Owen and myself is going to be key at this point. So I said thinking, setting the foundation of what that communication looks like and how it's to interact with the safety working group is going to be important. But also I think what you just said is very clear and very helpful. So I want to see how that resonates with other people in the group and also see if there's anything you want to add to that particular point that Mr. Bachmann raised in response to my question to make sure we're on the right track. Mr. Vernon Jones. Well, I'm certainly in agreement with that. I think we should ask them to start producing an outline or framework for their report right away. I also think that it's possible that in your conversations with them, they will, they may raise objections about whether that can be required given the way the contract is written. And I would hope that we would agree that we can refer them to talk to the town manager about those issues since he's technically the firing authority and has more experience with contracts than most of us. It's a great, great point. I think there's, they say the statement of the devil's in the details Actually, it's my aunt Callie. She's a devil. Didn't meet her. She's in the details. That woman is, wow, she's driving me crazy. But that's, that's what it is. You know, we, we have to do it. I think the comment as well, taking Mr. Vernon Jones and Ms. Breanna, Owen and I will take them under advisement for sure. Ms. Pereira. Yeah. I mean, just to clarify, I mean, I don't think that it should be something that's too far out there in terms of requiring them to do an outline because that's what you need to do a report anyway. You know, and this is more so so that we can make sure we're all on the same page because, you know, just imagine them thinking, okay, this is what we need. And then they start working on it. And then a couple of weeks down the road, it's totally contrary to what we need. You know, thank you. So I think just having an outline with some bullet points in terms of, okay, this is what we're thinking are going to be the essential parts of what we're going to be writing about is not too much to ask. Thank you very much. And if I make, roll us back to the last conversation with our consultant, I don't think they wanted to be in a situation where they're, we're just piecemealing requests to them. They, you know, like, we need this. Now we need that. Now we need this. I think they wanted to be more predictive about what they're going to, you know, have here coming from us. And so this would be an opportunity for Ms. Owen and myself to be able to put that out there. You know, here's, here's what we'd like to have. You know, you ask for specifics, here are the specifics. Here's what we want. Here's a timeline we want them in. I think that also, it helps us and it certainly helps them. So they did not have the last moment getting some kind of, oh, by the way, you know, we thought about this, we'd like this tomorrow. I got the sense that they don't like to work like that. And I don't know about you all, but I don't like to work like that. So if anything we can set in motion, that's usually read upon, and that's the trajectory we're on as a, as a working group in response to our charge. And I want to keep saying, I'm going to say in this charge a lot in respect to our charge, we can't forget that's where we started. And we've got to stay on that. So I think Ms. Owen and I can have this conversation with them. And I'm certainly knowing the people that we're working with, if they have enough notice and it's consistent with the, with the context we're working in. I can't anticipate a problem with us not working that out. Other comments from folks? Ms. Pat? So in addition to what everybody has just said, I noticed in that they agreed, the consultant agreed on four communities to look into. And I was just wondering what we're thinking about to, you know, suggest to them. I know we've looked into several communities. So I don't know what everybody else is thinking, but I would very much like to put them to look into new team and summer bill. I particularly like reading stuff about summer bill. So, and I know, you know, some people have mentioned nothing, but we need to agree on four communities. We want them to research for us. Thank you. I think the research piece is important. And it's, I think one of the challenges around my own opinion, I think one of the challenges around research is that we have to understand the United States context. At this point, there are so many municipalities now dealing with response to different things as it, as they're defining it. Community policing, civilian oversight, you know, we just got to think about summer bill, for example, it's a lot about, and they're on that. There are, you know, whole notions and processes about social justice leadership within the police department itself. And so there's a lot of research out there. We've been the recipient of wonderful resources from our community and probably still a lot of other resources that we even haven't uncovered yet. But there's a lot of information out there. How do we filter that down into what is applicable to Amherst? And I think we can't forget that we're talking about Amherst, Massachusetts, and working with our policing and our issues of safety. So, yeah, I think Ms. Pat, you're right. You know, there are a lot of things we want them to look into as we've looked into them. And how does it filter down to what's going to be applicable to, and beneficial, and useful, and workable, and attainable, if you can put any verb you want to add as you want on that, to Amherst. And we probably can get into some of that as we get into our next discussion. We'll be talking a little bit about the press initiative. But I think that's a key piece, Ms. Pat, and certainly something Ms. Owen and I will certainly follow up in our discussions. By the way, I think these discussions going forward will foreground these things with our community, Ms. Moyston, so that you know what's going on. Mr. Bernard Jones? Well, I think our consultants need to know quite soon what communities we're interested in. And I wonder if we might even have a conversation about that right now. Looking at the material that Ms. Owen found from Somerville, it looked to me like of the Massachusetts communities that have citizen oversight boards, that Cambridge is the one that has the most investigative functions and probably the most authority for its oversight board. And I think the weakest part of our research effort so far and there's not much in our what we're asking this consultant to do is the citizen oversight piece. So here where they're investigating other communities would be an opportunity to have them look at that piece in particular. So that made me interested in Cambridge. I mentioned Ithaca because it's another college town and they're sort of doing the one of the more radical versions of things they're abolishing the police department and recreating a new department that will be partly police and partly. But that may be less relevant to us. I don't know. Well, maybe this is adding. I support that 100% and I do agree we should have this conversation. I mean, I think typically some of our things blend a bit on the agenda. But this again is crafting an assignment request, if you will, from the CSWG to our consultants. They do work for us. We have to certainly work within their parameters of the contract. But I think what Ms. Pat was saying, what you're saying now Mr. Burton Jones and in response to the contributions of Ms. Owen relative to the Somerville is that these things should be up front and close because my own opinion on it is that it has to serve Amherst. I'd hate to try to superimpose something on, you know, that we hear it's good in another community. And that's great for them. But if we try to superimpose that without filtering it through the needs and desires of the Amherst community, then we're we might be off. So what you're saying, Mr. Burton Jones is important. And I absolutely, you know, we should pursue that. And I'd like to hear some other commentary folks on this Walker, Ms. Owen, any any any comments you'd like to in response to this, Ms. Owen. So I agree with you. I think that if everybody in the group is comfortable with choosing just four specific places that we're interested in having the consultants look into it would be better because there are a lot of different places that have oversight committees. But places like I would say Pittsfield, like their board just didn't seem as effective as places like Somerville. So I do think every community is going to be different. But there's just some communities that it looks like it's being done better. And I think we will still have to craft something that works for Amherst. Ms. Pat. One thing I heard and I'm trying to remember where was that whatever we come up with might be a pilot and say to work up for us. So pilot program. Yes. And as you say, I did. Yes. Say a little bit more about that, you know, in terms of a pilot with the with the goal of doing what? So whatever program that we come up with, we recommend, we wouldn't even know if it's going to work out or not. But we just try it. You know, if it's the oversight. I mean, all these programs, some of these programs were written in different communities are new. It hasn't been long term. So we don't even know if it's working or not. You know, people are just putting all these in place with what happened last year. So I mean, whatever we come up with, I will hope we will, you know, regard it as a pilot program and see how it plays out for Amherst unique needs is what I'm trying to say. But I think I remember somebody mentioning it in one of the meetings. I don't know. I could be wrong. I think we've had mixed conversations across the board around this, but it seems to always come back to, and you said it very accurately and very clearly, the unique needs of the Amherst community. You know, I think we've been, although some of the fundamental underlying issues around policing are universal historically for the, you know, in the United States. Amherst is different from Portland. Amherst is different from Eugene, Oregon. Amherst is different from Newark, New Jersey and from St. Louis and Springfield, Missouri, for example. So they're going to put different things in there that meet the needs of their community. We have to examine very clearly. And we're going to talk a little bit down the meeting here about inviting the police chief here because we've not had a conversation with him. And I think it's important that we do at this point. But it's got to meet our needs. And it's certainly going to invite the contextual history that we're talking about because we know how messed up it is all across the board. So how do we make it right for us? So the the comments about involving our consultants and working on our behalf is really important. I'm curious to hear from Miss Alicia. She's very, you're always very insightful. I enjoy listening to you. I know why she's not speaking right now. She was very active. I didn't say anything in the last subcommittee, but you know, she and Mr. Ross, yeah. You know, like in cartoons, like in cartoons, they have this little bubble that shows up over people's head about what they're thinking about. I see that. I see it around my screen that's happening over top of Alicia's head. She got these little bubbles going on. I hear exactly what she's thinking. She doesn't think I know. I'm just giving, I'm giving her a hard time, like I do with my children. Thank you Miss Pat. You're called out by Miss Pat, Miss Walker. Go ahead. I would love to contribute. I actually, like I don't have any specific communities that I'm leaning towards more, which is just why I didn't volunteer to share. But I like to hear what other people said about Somerville. And so I would agree that that should definitely be one of the places that we keep as the four places. And then I've, I'm just thinking, because I think it would, it would be helpful for us to have somewhere else closer like Northampton, but I don't know how far along in the process they are as to if that would be somewhere that we could get enough information from where we could be useful. But like, I think they're a more similar community to ours. So I do still think that there's some value in looking into what they're doing to connect with people over there that are in this work. And then I was just kind of thinking about the other communities because I don't know much about Ithaca, but I think the fact that there are colleges here does make this a very unique community. So that's something also to think about. But I, I don't really know specifically which places we should choose. So. Well, I think one of the things and I'm going to, you know, invite my longtime colleague and friend, Mr. Vernon Jones, to this conversation because we were both in the Amherst Pellum Regional School District for 18 years together. And we typically were trying to figure out what's the right thing to do. And typically Mr. Vernon Jones, you remember this and you certainly know this. It was hard to compare Amherst to some other town that didn't look like us and try to, you know, it was not only apples and oranges, it was apples and alligators. I mean, we just couldn't really do it. So we tried to find municipalities, towns that would look like us population wise, look like us economically educationally, socially, whatever. And, you know, typically we come up with places like Cambridge maybe or something like that. But I think it's, I think what you're saying, what we're saying here is that we've got to look at something that's probably close to us, although we, you know, we wouldn't dismiss looking at other places that aren't like us for good practices. But yeah, we've got to be trying to meet the needs of Amherst is what I'm fundamentally saying. I don't know, Mr. Vernon Jones, you want to weigh in on this or not? I think Ms. Ferrara had her hand up. Yeah, Ms. Ferrara? Yeah. You know, I guess I just want to move us along because obviously we have a whole bunch of other things on. So I guess I'm trying to figure out, okay, what's the best way? How do you want to proceed? Did you want to solve the kind of say, okay, these are the four and let's go with it. Do you want to submit those two? Because I had heard something from Mr. Vernon Jones saying that they want to, you know, we should try to get this to them like right away. So, you know, I'm just bouncing it back to you to kind of figure out so that because I know there's some other things we need to get to. A couple of few things, yeah. Sure. Yeah, and that's fine. I think since, you know, Mr. Vernon Jones introduced the whole idea of what, you know, communities you want to identify, that could be one of the things for the group to do. We've got a couple already, you know, we talked about, we talked about Somerville. If you have other communities you want to look at, you probably could submit those to Ms. Owen and me and we'll be, you know, we'll be working to incorporate that in our conversations with the consultant group. I also think that we will, well, going back a little bit further, Ms. Owen and I will be having a conversation about how to begin the conversation with the consultant group to get very specific about what we're doing and when we're doing specific things. So, Ms. Walker and Mr. Vernon Jones. I'm sorry, I'm just bringing it back to my previous comment that I just made because I'm also thinking about what Ms. Pat said about it being a pilot. And so I actually think there would be value in having them look into four, like different things that are happening, like communities that are approaching it in different ways and not necessarily ways that would be or not necessarily communities that are similar to Amherst, but that one of the communities we choose should be one that's similar to Amherst and that like having a variety of different things would give us an opportunity to choose something specific for Amherst that isn't exactly like somewhere else, but like maybe we can pull from each different community what's working for them and compare it to different aspects. So I think it might be helpful to have a variety of different things happening in the towns that we look into. Excellent. Yeah, I like that idea. I think you were next. Yeah, I like that idea getting a variety of input, a variety of models. And I will withdraw any towns I've mentioned and make this recommendation from me. One is that we include Cambridge because I think they've had a citizen oversight panel with some real teeth in it that's been in operation for a while. And two, that we make sure that at least one of the places we pick is one that already has a community responder program in place. And we could pick a municipality that has that or we could let our consultants pick, but I think that would be helpful. And then the last thing is I wanted to ask the group whether you would be okay with inviting Mr. Bachmann to comment on this and see often in his work is having to compare to other municipalities. And I think there's both a question of where do we get the most useful information. And there's also what will help build our credibility of our recommendations when we make them to the town council and to the town. You are hereby invited Mr. Bachmann. So I think this is also an opportunity for the consultants to weigh in and say, you know, they're the experts, they've worked in this area. Say, what communities would you give the criteria that Mr. Vernon Jones just said we want similar to us, you know, whatever it is, you know, has a community responder model, give us some suggestions. We, you know, the working group might say we want to choose the communities, but give us the options available to us. Swalker, did you have enough? Okay. Thank you. So I don't think we need to move more deeply into this right now. Thank you, Ms. Walker, Ms. Pereira for that little prompt. We got a lot to do. We do. And so Ms. Pat, and then I think we'd like to move on. So is there a deadline for us to submit to suggest communities? So you said to send it to Ms. Owen. Is there a deadline? I think I'd like to meet with Ms. Owen. ASAP. And then we can get something out to you very quickly to have you respond to if that's okay with you. Does that sound good? I don't want to do anything in the absolute conversation with Ms. Owen. And then we can move forward very quickly. I'm sure. Thank you. All good? Yep. So community responders program earlier, Mr. Vernon Jones had submitted a grid with the goal of this tool being used to kind of get a sense of where, what we were thinking about relative to agreement, no agreement, where you're leaning in terms of certain things. And we haven't had a full response from the group yet. So I will defer this to Mr. Vernon Jones to maybe lead us in this discussion. But I think it's important that we know where we stand with respect to this community responder initiative. I think this is a very important piece of the entire work of policing reform and safety reform. So that said, I'd like to, if you're able to take this up, Mr. Vernon Jones, reintroduce if you need to or talk about that. And I don't know if Ms. Moisten, you have that form that Mr. Vernon Jones, he or I communicated that to the, I was just trying to grab it. I have the IFB one for the second piece of the IFB, but not the grid. I think I have a grid. And if Mr. Vernon Jones has a grid, can you allow him access to co-host? If you don't have it? I believe he should be able to share his screen without co-host access. Okay, that's good. Okay. So while we're getting ready for that, I think this was an attempt to, again, sort of straw poll where we were, but more than just like a yes or no or maybe there was an opportunity to make comments on certain things. And I think given the urgency of this particular work that we spend some time going through this now with everyone here minus two of our members who we can follow up with to see if we can close some of the gaps in feedback that we don't have at this point. We're kind of all set, Mr. Vernon Jones. Can you see that now? Yeah. We can see, yeah, the latter part of the page previous and then the first, now it's, yeah, that's the first page of the, what you're looking at is the first page of the grid that was sent. And the request was to fill in, you know, by checking off in any of the cells and commenting as you will going forward. So I'd like to go right into this because this is important and Mr. Vernon Jones, why don't you go ahead and proceed with that? Well, if we start talking about each of these things, we will not get to preparing to meet with the police chief. So I'm wondering, can we go through and just do the straw poll and then have people send in there so we get a sense of where we, where we are. And I'm, let's see, I'm having trouble seeing the screen share and everybody. There we go. And everyone see what's on the screen? Okay. Can we just get a, a hand raise and that would be easy. Which one? One, two, three, which one? Let's, let's start with one. We'll do it individually. We just raise our hands. Yeah. How many people are leaning to agree on number one? This is transfer to police positions currently on hold to the community responder program. And can I, may I just add something, Mr. Vernon Jones? I'm sorry to interrupt, but I might be happy for you to run this. I don't, I don't need to be. That's fine. I want to say a couple of us have turned in information to you already. Yes. So do you still want us because I have to go back and make sure I'm repeating what I said. I wouldn't worry about repeating. I think it would be most helpful if we just all participate in the poll. Okay. The poll, we can all kind of see where each other is. And then we'll come back and sounds good. Let's go for it. Can we do it by roll call? Instead of raising our hands. A raising hands is a little easier and quicker. Okay. Can you see everybody Ross? Yes. Okay. And let me say, I don't see this as a decision process. These are not votes. No, this is a, this is a straw poll about what sort of where are we thinking right now? I mean, we, we will need to vote on some of these things eventually, but I don't think we're, we need more discussion. But that's some of them may need a lot of discussion and some of not so much. And that's sort of what we're trying to figure out, I think. Yeah, I guess, but Mr. Vernon Jones is this, Mr. I guess that's the issue that I have. I mean, yeah, let's do it. But, you know, even though I may be in agreement with some of these that are there, there's a lot more discussion that I need in terms of the budget for this. You see what I'm saying? When are we going to get to the discussion of, no, the issues that, that we might have, even though I might be in agreement with some of this, there's a lot more that I want to discuss about it. I, I'm eager to have those discussions. That's up to the chair. I'm, I know you're, you want to make sure we plan for the police chief and I'm trying to save time to do that tonight. No, I know. No, me, it wasn't about the police chief. I mean, I'm, I'm fine. Either way, we can put them for another. This is important. I just wanted to move on to some of these other things. It wasn't for the police chief. It was for this is really important. This is extremely important. We can bump the police chief for another week as far as I'm, I think all these more discussion. So let's, let's agree that we're not cutting off discussion, even if we all indicate that we are leaning to agree. If I may just, just say, I think the, the first swipe at this in terms of the straw pole piece would be a good first indicator. If you, you may or may not have had a chance to look at the, the layout of the format of this at the, at the end of each segment there's a place for commentary and, you know, for more discussion and things like that. So we could certainly do this now. And certainly, Mr. bring this up for discussion. You know, for the discussion, because that's what it's designed to do. I think it was just, you know, put in place to set a foundation for, for conversation. This is not, you know, Mr. Gordon Jones says it's not a vote, but here's what we're thinking about. What do you think about this, this, this and this. And if you look at it, there are several places where you can have additional comments or questions about it. And I think that's the creating the foundation for the discussion. And I agree with you. I think the, by the way, the police thing is, is flexible. And, you know, and we can, you know, we can get to that. You know, certainly the police chief is flexible about when he and the staff appears. So this being having the importance that it does that I'd like to, you know, so let's just dive in and see where it takes us with the understanding that we're going to have a conversation. If that's okay, that works with people. Okay. Number one, leaning to agree. I'm sure you had mine. Paul, is your hand up? Okay. So that's one, two, three, six of us, right? So number two, which is make it a little larger. Russ, is that possible? I think so. It's just a little bit, not much. If not, that's fine. That's better. Thank you. Okay. Number two, in addition to that, this is in addition to the two positions currently on hold, take two more positions sometime during the next year. Leaning to agree. I just want to make a comment because I partially agree with this, but I have some complications from myself with the wording, which is why I'm not voting. Okay. Are you a no-leaning at this point? Yes. So I agree with the first part, but I'm not sure about the second part. Okay. Yeah. I don't know how I would vote for that. We'll make that five, zero, and one. Number three, leaning to agree. Yeah, that looks like everybody. Yeah. And I mean, my hope is, I mean, we're not going to get all the conversation done tonight. I hope that people would make their comments and send them in might help our chair organize the discussion. You can see as Mr. Bernjohn is scrolling down, for example, if you could scroll up a little bit, right there, put comments regarding one to three here. That's the catalyst for the discussion right there. You can check whatever cell you want. Your discussion may even change yourselves, but I think we're trying to get to the point where we can have a discussion about it. And this would be a way to sort of funnel it down to where we can have more or less discussion on certain matters. That's my take on it. Okay. Four A, training for the police departments so they begin to take the wall in dismantling systemic racism and come to everything with an aware racial lens. Meaning to agree to, meaning to disagree. I mean, number two. I think this will be an easy conversation to have. Like, why do we even need this and this? We should take it out. Police has been training for a long time. That's no result. Let's not, we wouldn't try to have the conversation. So four B, needed staff and software so the police department can publicly post data analyzed by race. Meaning to agree. Hang on a second. Let me, four B. Yeah. Yes. Two. It's three in agreement. Meaning to disagree. Two. And no leaning. One. Okay. Number five. Include in the budget. Funding for the following. Funds to develop detailed procedures for the CR program, dispatch, et cetera. Agree? Looks like everybody. That's five A, five B. Fund the hiring process for staff. Agree? Fund training for the community responders. That's a six. Train the dispatchers. I think the expectation is they would be able, people would be able to call community responders directly. But we also want, I mean, I also want nine and 11 dispatchers to refer cases. If people call 9-11, but it's really a CR case. So train the 9-11 dispatch. That looks like a six. E, provide and equip vehicles. Meaning to agree. That's a six. F, provide supervision and support. I mean, funding for supervision and support. That looks like everybody. G, funding to support training outreach and research for the new citizen oversight board. That looks like a six. And then, you know, people may have all sorts of other things they want in the budget. And this would be, you know, maybe in this next week, we can all send those Ms. Moystiner to our chair. Funding additional initiatives to create a safer, more inclusive community. Six A, youth empowerment center. Six. The transitional housing for people who are homeless. House list. That's a six. Rental assistance. I mean, obviously, I have to have discussion about what that means, but that looks like a five. I have no leaning, Russ. Paul, you, okay. D, an Amherst cultural or multicultural center. Meaning to agree. That's a five. Paul, where are you? No leaning. Okay. E, an office of diversity, equity, inclusion for the town with qualified BIPOC leadership and program funding. Leaning to agree. Looks like five. Ms. Ferrer, where are you on that one? No leaning. Okay. And then about the nature of the CR program itself. Two person multi racial teams with appropriate expertise, clinical mental health, et cetera, who are unarmed and respond as needed. Meaning to agree. So far, Felicia, are you? So I agree, but I think that I would want to rely on the research provided by the consulting group to decide if two person was sufficient. Yeah, but again, I mean, again, I mean, I have a lot of commentary on all of this. Yeah, but like, I agree in general. Like, I don't want to say I don't agree. And I don't want to say I'm leaning because I'm, I really agree, but I just don't want to limit it to two person. That's helpful. Number two, cross staff for first responders to calls regarding these issues. Leaning to agree. That's six. Three, cross services can be accessed by members of the public calling the team directly or dispatched by 9 11 or the police department or fire department can refer situations to them. Meaning to agree. That's a six team can call for assistance from the PD or entities whenever needed. Meaning to agree. Two, three, four. Okay, I guess that's everybody. Five team will have an equipped dedicated vehicle. You know, and I know it's a van has been recommended and high quality communications equipment. Meaning to agree. Six. Cross staff will be employees of the town with full benefits, supervision and support. Leaning to agree. Everybody. Crest will relieve APD of many requests for assistance. But if the request, if the crest team is already occupied, the police will continue to respond to some of the things that are in the crest category. Meaning to agree. Can you read that again? Crest will relieve the police of many requests for assistance. The police will continue to handle emergency calls of all types when the crest team teams are already occupied with other situations. In other words, follow crest teams are busy and somebody with a mental health issue calls in. The police will respond. Those leaning to agree. Disagree. No leaning. I disagree. Okay. And then these three about the mission of the crest program will contribute to dismantling systemic racism to racially aware safety and social services to persons of all races with a consciously anti-racism focus. Agree. That's everybody. Connect clients in crisis with social services. Agree. Ms. Patti, where are you on that one? Am I growing but I smart to social services that are natural support services that are like new trends emerging beside traditional social services. Yeah. And C will identify gaps in service. Agree. So my answer to 8B is no leaning right now. Right. Got that. 8B, no leaning. Yes. All right. Clearly, we got a lot to talk about, but I think that's a remarkable amount of agreement as a place to begin our conversations about the details. Well, thank you for putting that chart together. And I think what is difficult for us as a group, we're used to looking at things and commenting on them and having discussions about them. But I think this kind of organize it. And I think you can see the value and importance of conversation and for the input on this. This is an important issue. It's going to be a part of the larger context of what safety looks like in general, you know, in our community. What I'd like to do is think with you all about this. As this is an important discussion. Can we move this discussion in part or in whole to our next meeting, knowing too that, you know, Ms. Owen and myself are going to be talking with the consultant group and there's a very good possibility that they may want to return to have a conversation with us next meeting. If in the first place, this information that we're collating now just in the straw poll is going to generate a conversation, then I would like to suggest to folks, if you haven't already done so, you know, we can get the numbers poll in place. But the commentary on these additional items would be important to receive if you could in fact go into the commentary pieces under each segment, make comments and get them back to, you know, to me, if you will. And then we can have a more thorough and deeper conversation about this at the next meeting. What is your sense of folks about doing this next meeting, Ms. Walker? So I agree. I think this is an extremely important conversation for us to have, especially because we are like honing in on the day of the budget. And I think this is going to possibly require extensive conversation. And so I think we should definitely get started next meeting and dedicate, if not all, most of our meeting to this. And then maybe try to see if we can plan to invite the police chief for the following meeting because we are coming to the end of March. So that will be our last March meeting before April. I don't know if we want to talk to them, you know, much later than that. And that we might also start just working on questions we might have for them if we can in our free time up until that meeting. Yes, there's, yes, yes, I want to say, certainly we can do that the next meeting. Let me just say, let me go back to say in terms of the police chief, one, he's very flexible about when he comes on our end, I think we want to be able to forecast an agenda to him and have our questions in place to him. Ms. Ms. Carrera and I created a document that sort of sets the framework for how we might do that. And I don't know, Ms. Moisten, if people are able to get that document. Yeah. Are you there? Are you there, Ms. Moisten? I'm here. I had to step away to get water. I was choking. It's really dry in here. So I did, the last thing I heard you guys were saying is that Alicia was saying that was very important that we continue this meeting until this conversation until the next one. Yeah, thank you. It looks like we're going to do that. I think I was referring to the preliminary document that Ms. Carrera and I created for the group. We didn't have a packet this week. And I didn't see whether that was shared or not with the group. But the whole idea around that was to get the group's input on how to prepare for Scott Livingstone. And I think as a, it's important we meet with him. If we're not going to meet with him next week, that's okay. We can meet with him the following week. I think he's very flexible. I think at some point it would be very important for us to have some interaction with him as the police department is the focal point of a lot of this work. And I think in absence of a conversation, a live conversation with him and then his staff, we may be missing some things. So that's where I'm coming from on that. Ms. Walker and then Ms. Pat. Yes, thank you, Mr. Wiley. I just, so what I meant though was not necessarily because of the police's flexibility. I think they made it clear that they'd be willing to work with us, but I was more concerned with our timeline. And I know that we have reports due in April. And I don't know if as a group, we feel like we would want to get some information from the police before those reports are due. And if we just want to be mindful of our timeframe, like just thinking about if we want to have that meeting in two weeks, then we should probably still start thinking about it right now because if our next meeting is dedicated to this conversation, we're not going to have that much time to prepare to meet with them during our meetings. So we should talk about like if we want to do preparation outside of our meeting. I think that doc can be sent to us. That would also be super helpful. Okay, we can make sure that the document that Ms. Brera and I worked on is issued to you all. I want to follow the working group's guidance on this because this whole idea of a CR initiative is very important. And since we took the time to straw poll this, we need to take the time to digest it and unravel a little bit. And I'd like to suggest that for our next meeting. I think we also need to reserve some time, which is already on the, it's on our agenda. It's going to be, you know, consultant discussion for some potential conversation with our consultants vis-à-vis the work that Ms. Owen and I will do in between to see if they want to have some input and commentary to what's going on. So those, literally those two things could be our agenda for next week. Any thoughts, Ms. Pat? So as with having this discussion, I observed that, you know, some of us might feel disappointed that we, you know, we're not going into real discussion tonight. I mean, I don't want to ask anybody, but I would, I am wondering if it would be okay for whoever wants to speak, maybe for two minutes, you know, about what the grass, the stuff that Mr. Ross put together. Thank you for doing that, but I don't want us to live tonight without, I would like to like hear from people like their overall impression about the straw poll that we just had. Because I'm, you know, I'm not a psychologist, but I'm looking at people, my fellow members and some people feeling disappointed that we didn't discuss, we didn't start this discussion tonight. That's just me. No, I understand that and I totally respect that. Did all of you have an opportunity to see that grid? So, and I know, you know, it's probably what people may say, we do have other lives that we live. But I'm going to say there, you know, if we had a substantive amount of commentary in response to that grid, we probably could have had conversation about that, Ms. Pat, tonight, but I don't think there, the feedback was such that I think it was not the whole group of respondents to that grid nor made comments. It's not a criticism of the group necessarily, but that's why we did what we did to see if we can fill those cells right now and get the commentary. So that's my only thing, you know, I mean, we were hoping to have a conversation, but again, we just weren't at the point to have it. Ms. Ms. Pereira. I think Ms. Owen, did you have your name or your hand up first? So I just wanted to say, I do agree with Ms. Walker and I do think that we should have further, like we should dedicate a huge chunk of our agenda next meeting to talk about the grid where we disagree, because I think further discussion does need to happen. And I think for me, pushing the police back for two weeks would be fine, just because we need to get our recommendations in and police oversight is the second part of our charge. So in my mind, meeting with the police would be helpful for that part of the charge, not the recommendation portion. I'd like to suggest, you know, yeah, in response to that, Ms. Owen, thank you. And in respect for what Ms. Pat's saying, I could see even from the way we're responding to this in a strong whole fashion that people do have thoughts about this. And so I'm suggesting to the group that, so that we have a full and deep and meaningful conversation about that, that we all take a, whether you hand it in the form or not, whether you take another look at that thing, make the commentary that you want to make, and get that to Ms. Moisten and send it to me. And then we'll be ready to have a full blown conversation because you also have had a chance to think on your own about each individual segment of that, which is very important. And your comments in the comment sections are going to be the ones that are going to be very important. And I don't mind collating that, Mr. Vernon Jones, once it comes in, to say, here are the commentary related to questions one, two, three, A, B, and C. And, you know, get that document turned around back to other people so we can go right at it. I think it's a wonderful conversation. It's a meaningful one. It's an important one. It's essential to what we're doing. And I think, you know, it's, you know, looking at the fact that it's whatever it is, 7-12 on my computer right now, we'd be hand cupping ourselves a little bit by not having a full discussion. And I think this gives us some ample time to go back at it one more time before that's me, Mr. Vernon Jones. Well, you know, I put this list together from things I had heard from each of you in various meetings and from some community members and my own thoughts. I don't know that everything that we need to talk about is on this list. And Paul, I hope you would invite us not just to comment on the things on this list, but also what's not on the list? What else should people want to add? What other decisions do you see us needing to make or would you recommend so that everybody gets input to the list as well as commenting on what's already there? Absolutely. That's the spirit I understood it to be in. And I think this group is not going to be confined by a grid. If there's something that people want to say, they're going to say it and I welcome that. I just want us to be be thorough about this. And if it's knowing now that it's on the agenda, we should come fully loaded to have a conversation with the goal of coming to some working group agreement on where we stand relative to community response. And I think that would do justice, Ms. Pat, to what you're talking about in terms of a discussion. One of the things I worry about is having a partial discussion and then us running over time and feeling we have to get ourselves out of it. But rather, let's start right at the beginning and have it. I have no problem moving Chief Livingstone to another date. I don't think he does either. I think the important piece is to give him enough notice to know what we're seeking from him and what he wants to say to us at this point. So we certainly can do that. And that document that Ms. Pereira and I sent, created, could be sent or re-sent if it needs to be. Everyone to say, hey, respond to this. Here's what we're doing. And at some point, when the information comes back, we're going to invite Scott Livingstone and his administrative team if he so chooses to this meeting. And we'll have a conversation with him. But I'm hearing, Ms. Walker, what you're saying and others. We have an urgent timeline with our consultants, and we have something to do. So that's my thought on it. And I would vote as much time as we need to next meeting to that. I do have a question about our consultant group. I don't know what Ms. Owen and I are going to come up with necessarily, but would you like to invite the consultant group to our next meeting for a check-in, Ms. Walker? And then Ms. Pereira. I'm not sure. Well, so one, I think that our next meeting that if we do decide to discuss the grid that that discussion in itself could take up an entire meeting, if not more than an entire meeting in itself. And that given our previous conversations with the consultant group, they also require a little bit of attention and depth when we speak with them. And so I don't know if putting both of those things on the same day would be very smart, because we'd be rushing through one or the other. Also, I think they're in the process. I would need a little bit reminder maybe from Mr. Vernon Jones and Ms. Pat. They were in, they're in the process of trying to find the ambassadors. I think they said they needed a week to hire and then a week to train and then they were going to send them out. So maybe we should ask them to come in after they finish the training, which would then be the following week. Because they won't have much of an update if they're just still looking for people to go out. I don't know. No point. Well taken. Ms. Herrera. Yeah. I mean, I guess, yeah, I had my hand up for a little while. So I have, I guess a couple of things in terms of the grid, you know, just so you know, I didn't send anything in because I was really sure when, how or whatever I was supposed to send that in. So for my question is this grid, right? So that you have enough time to collate by when do you want the grid in? You know, but I think that was one of the things that I missed from the last meeting was I know we were supposed to do a grid. I didn't know by when. So I didn't know this kind of like went by my mind, but obviously it's very important. So do you have a buy when for the grid that you want it by? Well, first of all, apologies, you know, Ms. Herrera, if that was not clear. I mean, on all our parts, because because it is an important feature of our work, I would say, you know, for me and Mr. Vernon Jones, you have the straw poll numbers. Correct? Yes. If I get the straw poll numbers from you and I can get commentary from the rest of the working group, you know, by Sunday. Okay. Does that give you enough time to go through that? And then that gives me Monday gives me an opportunity to put it together. And we can go from there. And I'd be happy in response to what the group is saying to say, you know, let's feature this is our discussion at our next meeting. And you know, you will have the coalition in front of you before the next meeting. Yeah. And then I'm sorry. Sorry. And then the other part was around. Now I forgot I lost my my trainers thought here with it, but it was the grid. Oh, I got it. But oh, it was the consultants. So if the consultants don't come next week, again, I think I want to go back to I'd like to get like something from them, like a paid report. I mean, I know they said that we're going to be working on this and working on that. But I would like to get something from them to say, you know, what they're working on just so that we know that they're diligently kind of doing what they need to do. And then maybe the other thing if we have time would be on the agenda would be for next week we just be around meeting with the chief and whether, you know, and in terms of the questions that you want for that once you send that paper out, you know, the indications that says about the questions by when do you want to submit like questions for APD and things like that? Well, if they're not meeting, we're not going to meet with the chief next week, then it would be, you know, you know, I would say probably the following Friday. But I mean, the only thing is, is that maybe we could we could just if we already have some ideas, some questions we can send it to you so that if we have time, if our discussion doesn't take the entire meeting, if we have time, we can discuss some of those. So that's what I'm thinking. You mean next Wednesday? Yeah, because then we would be meeting with APD the week after. Well, I'm getting a little bit of a mixed message. I think that this meeting might take up most of our time on the first topic if I'm correct. And I don't want to diminish that conversation nor the one we would have with the chief. So. No, no, not to meet with the chief. I'm not saying to meet with the chief next week. I'm just saying. I thought you were saying. I'm saying if there's time just for us to talk about the questions that we have for the chief. Oh, we could do that if we want to make time for that. Well, if there's time, obviously the first thing would be the grid, but then put that as a second just in case if we have time. If not, that would be. I got to talk about the questions, not to meet with the chief. Perfect. Yeah. Took a lot off my head just then when you said that. Thank you. Yeah. Miss Walker. I just agree with Deborah and I was just going to say, I think we should have that as a preliminary item. So if we do have time, that should definitely be something we should try to get in there so that we don't have to have a whole another week of waiting to try to just start that conversation. So I think just add it as a preliminary at the end. Like next week is primarily dedicated to talking about the grid. And if we finish that conversation before 730, we'll start talking about the questions. Okay. I got it. How are we doing? We're okay. Mr. Vernon Jones. Yeah. Now I I'm certainly in agreement with all the all that discussion. Once we make our recommendations, assuming we can get them approved by the town council, I assume it'll be up to the town manager to set up this program. And I find myself wondering whether there are other issues that we should be deciding or providing guidance on that the town manager might identify for us. Mr. Bachmann. So the community safety working group is making this recommendation to the town manager. The town manager then presents his recommendations to the town council for its consideration. I'm sure the town council will be eager to hear from the community safety working group on the work that you've done. But just if you look at the charge that it is going, the town manager establishes the budget and then gets presented to the to the town council. My question is if we get to set it, you're setting up such a program. Are there other things you would like guidance from us on other issues that we should be examining? You're aware you're going to run into that we haven't met yet? You know, I've been looking at this with my staff as well. I mean, I see where you guys are going and so we have had some preliminary discussion but very preliminary. I don't but I think in a week or so we may have additional what we're going to be talking about over the next week or so until we can, if there are issues, I just I haven't really put that much time into it. Honestly, I've been waiting to hear this is actually a very good conversation to hear where you're headed that that that framework that you just went through was it was instructive to me. So I don't have any an answer to you right now, but I can't maybe have some in the near future. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Bachmann, Mr. Verne Jones for that question. This is all very helpful and informative. I think we're we're kind of putting this together a little bit now in a way that's useful. I see the next steps for me and Ms. Owen are to get to our consultant group to get information from them, information that for example Ms. Ferrera brought up, others have brought up about getting what it is we, you know, we want from them. Also, we have to make our solid request of what we need because they need to be organized around that request and we have to give it to them in a manner that is useful to them and timely. So we're going to start that conversation right away. In fact, you know, tomorrow morning, just so when I set up a time that you and I can talk and we get them going, get back to the group. The other thing is we're going to have this whole community responder conversation in more depth with our next meeting. It's going to be, you know, my request that folks do think about this deeply. Do submit their commentary and as was said, if there's anything else that's not in there or some other thoughts that could be in this is an open palette in a lot of ways. And I think this is just a tool to get us started. So we're going to have that conversation. And then the other thing I heard is that we should, you know, make sure you all have the document regarding the preparation for a discussion with Chief Livingstone in front of you so you can look at it and begin submitting commentary on that for a discussion that we might be able to have next meeting. And we carve out some minutes to do that as well. Am I missing anything there in terms of our next meeting? Ms. Pat? It's not about the next meeting agenda. It's just what would have been helpful. Like I heard a couple of people throw out the issue of budget. So I was just curious as to which budget are we talking about? Is the budget of alternative community safety or is it police budget would have been helpful? Like are people making recommendation based on budget or are we making recommendation based on what we feel will address problems, racism that we have in this town? So it would have been helpful for me, particularly for clarity, because I'm not looking at this in terms of budget. I'm sorry to say that. MS is very well resourced. And I get irritated when budget is mentioned when it comes to issues, services that will benefit the BIPOC community or people who are marginalized in this town. So it would have been helpful for me to hear people where the budget is coming from. And to me, I would like to see the APD budget slash into 50% or even less. Thank you. I think in terms of again referring to this tool, toward the end of the questions that were, you know, or the different cells in this tool that we're looking at, there were a number of community kinds of things and how in service to you know, our broader community in particular youth that we were talking about. So we could be talking about multiple budget entry points here and not all of it is about police. Some of it's about, you know, community services. So you know, I think your question is, it's a good one, Ms. Pack. Where do these discussions fall? Do they fall in an overall town budget? Do they fall in a police budget? Do they fall into human services? Do they fall into leisure services? Where are we going with this? And I think that's part of what our conversation will help us, you know, kind of figure out a little bit. But, you know, I wonder about those things too. You know, where's his money coming from? Ms. Walker, back to you Ms. Pack. If I may, what I'm trying to say, maybe I didn't make myself very clear is that we need to be discussing what we feel that, you know, we'll actually protect BIPOC and marginalized people in this town. I don't want to say we don't have the money, we don't have the budget, we don't, but we do have budget to build for for projects. We have money to do side work. There is funding to look into downtown businesses, a consulting group, you know, you know, has been hired to do that. And I'm all for that. But I don't want us to nickel and dime services that will benefit marginalized folks in this town is what I'm trying to hint. We shouldn't base our recommendation on whether or not we have budget for it in this town. Thank you. That's clear. Thank you. Absolutely clear. Ms. Walker. Yes. Thank you, Ms. Pat, for that comment. It just has me thinking a little bit more that it might be interesting if people can, when they're going through the list and adding commentary, think about that because our recommendations are to inform. We could add thoughts around how much money we think these things would cost or where we think the money should come from to fund the things that we are leaning towards, that those would be interesting things to add in the commentary for our discussion for next week that I think we should be thinking about. But then also to keep in mind what Ms. Pat said and that like make realistic suggestions and not suggestions that are bottled based off of how much money you think we have available to us and really recommendations as to how much money you think we would need to make this happen and make it benefit the community actually for real. Thank you, Ms. Walker. Two points well made and I think this probably resonates for a lot of us too, Ms. Pat, Ms. Walker, is that if you kind of follow the money, if you will, in certain enterprises, you see what people value. And so I think what I'm saying there is that what we value is important to us does the money follow. And it's not the other way around. And I think we struggle with that all the time. On a practical basis, we value a lot of things that we can't fund. But there's an opportunity here, I'd like to say, for us to rethink safety in this town, to rethink it and to see how can we put our values out there and the essential importance of this work out front and then follow it with some money, not the other way around. So thank you both for those comments. I'm happy now. I'm happy. You're happy? Yeah, now. Yeah. I just want to put it out there. So thank you for giving me the opportunity. Well, I don't think you think there was any way I was going to not give you an opportunity. I don't want to get hurt. Thank you. Thank you all. So I kind of, I'm looking at our agenda. We've had some, I'm looking at that. We talked about invitation, the invitation to attend the meeting. That was about Chief Livingstone. We did the community responder piece. Recommendations are forthcoming and I think we've got to keep that in place. It is 7.32 and if there's no objection, I'd like to move to be honest to the upcoming events to see if anybody has any. Ms. Herrera? Ms. Herrera? Can you hear me? No, I can't. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, just to kind of send out again what I had sent to Ms. Moyston about the one working toward racial equity around table and dialogue that's coming up on Tuesday, the 23rd, 6.30 to 8.30. I think that that could... We're losing, we're losing you little snippets of what you're saying. But anyway, did you hear that in terms of just if you all can sign up for the working towards racial equity around table and dialogue? Yeah. Yeah, that's important. Have we all seen that? Okay. Yeah. I sent it to everyone. Yeah, thank you. Excellent. So I just want to make sure, because I know we get a bunch of emails, so but I think it might be good. They're going to have young people on there from Poku. You know, my son will be there and stuff too. So I think it'll be a good thing for us to attend and maybe give us an idea in terms of when we want to invite other groups also to our meetings. Thank you. Thank you. Other events, I just have a question. Is anybody having corned beef and cabbage today? Crickets. Okay. Yeah, we did in my program. Yeah, right? In my program, we did. Good. Good. Well, it was yummy. I bet you it was. Yeah. So thank you, Ms. Pereira, for that. Please, if you haven't signed up for that, if you have the time, please do so. It should be a very, you know, an informative and valuable event. Next meeting, I guess we're looking at next Wednesday. Same time, same place. And just by way of passing, Ms. Bowman was not able to attend. Mr. Cage was not able to attend. I will follow up with them to make sure they're in the loop and also encourage them to you know, do the same homework we're doing, of course. And so they won't be out of the loop. So I will do that. So next meeting at 5.30, March 24th. Good. Other agenda items? Thank you very much. Thank you all again. I think to scroll around the screen, everybody on here who's been contributing and working so hard. We're, I just wanted to say something on Ms. Moisten's behalf too. We're a weekly committee and this is just an unbelievable amount of work to, you know, this is unprecedented. Just say it that way. So I want to appreciate Ms. Moisten's efforts to do us a solid and get everything in place. It is sometimes difficult. When it's humanly possible, everything is in place. When it's not humanly possible, we just have to give Ms. Moisten a cake or something. She's got to fly around and do a better job. But it's, you know, we appreciate you and what you're doing. Mr. Bowman, certainly from the town's point of view overall, it's a lot going on. As you can see, if you look on the website and thank the group for your ongoing research and commitment to this. And we're making progress. We were making great progress and I think we're going to make a difference in this town in a lot of different ways. So I'm very grateful to be working with all of you and let's keep it going. Just say my quick thank you. So I do want to say thank you and I want to say that I'm equally invested in working with this group as I am a resident, right? So I can't say much all the time, but there's a reason why I'm here, right? Because this is, I want to see this work, right? A lot of times I've seen these things happen and then they don't really turn out and I want to see this and I have faith that it'll work. So and I'm, you know, I, you know, so otherwise that's all I just wanted to say. Okay. I just like to add that I just like to add that Ms. Boyston doesn't say much in these meetings, outside the meetings. These headphones are filled. Okay, Mr. Bachman. He's got jokes today. Enjoy your conversation with Ms. Boyston tomorrow morning at 8 o'clock. Tonight. Yeah, tonight. Thank you all for our group. We have so much fun. It's gonna have fun somewhere in here. You know, pleasure working with everybody and thank you all for your hard work. Have a good evening. We're adjourning at 738 p.m. with the with a motion from somebody. So moved. Second. Thank you, Ms. Pat. Who seconded it? Mr. Vernon Jones and Ms. Ferrerra. They both want to end this meeting. Thank you all. Meeting is adjourned. It is 738. Thank you so much for your hard work. Thank you. See you next time. Thanks everybody. Have a good week. Good night.