 All set? So I'm Govan Bailey from Queens University in Kingston if you weren't here last night. First of all, fantastic PowerPoints, very professional delivery. I was very impressed. Makes me feel a bit lazy. So thank you for four wonderful talks, which I also enjoyed reading because I read them in advance. I do want to make a plug here, a shout out, for Queens University. We have a very important graduate student conference every year in January. Of course, it's Canada in January. But you'll get warmth inside. It's very big. We're now up to three days long. And we get people from all over the place. So really, Europe and all over the US and Canada. So please apply. It's run entirely by our grad students. We do not deign to tell them what to do. And each year there's a theme. So it has a particular theme. So please think about that for next January. So it was interesting to see the commonalities in these papers, even though they were from quite dramatically different periods. All of them, it seemed to me, had to do to a certain degree with participation with the viewer. Not just looking, but moving. This idea of kinetic art that Lauren was talking about. I found this very interesting, this interaction between the artworks and people, real people. We have a coffret. And I hope that's how you say it. We have a coffret, which is read aloud, sorry, which you open and close, which you move around hand to your partner. And she hands it back, that you sort of have to be tactile with and manipulate to get the message. We also have a cross, which is meant to be read aloud, which is an aspect of performance. You also process around it, which is, again, a performance. It involves active looking and active participation. And it's only through this processing around it that you begin to understand the figures and to decipher the meaning. And we also have these frescoes in these staircases. I'm very jealous. I wish I could get into those staircases. But good for you, wonderful. We get these paintings in staircases in the most important palace in Christendom, in which you move through, you pass by these in sort of daily routine and encounter these frescoes. So they're part of emotion, again, because when you go up in staircases, you are processing, you are moving. So again, another connection between kinetic and art. And then these bronze statues, these wonderful statues who attentively serve you and relate to you and work within, participate in your daily ritual and your wonderfully louche dinner parties. Along with participation, often comes meditation. We have an engaging with an engagement box. Well, it is an engagement box. It's given as an engagement present. So we have someone engaging with their engagement box as an interactive contemplation upon the relationship between earthly and divine love. We have a cross which demands viewers of different levels. And here we get a bit of reception theory in here. Of different levels of education and ability and non-ability to read, for example, to meditate upon the nature of kingship and its relationship to Christ's passion and Christ's overcoming worldly kingship with its loss of faith, or loss of faith with divine resurrection. And this is a kind of walking meditation. As we meditate on these things, we actually have to walk around the cross and we have to see it from all sides. So again, this kinetic aspect. And potentially, although this is a stretch, given the louche nature of Roman banquets, a contemplation of service, perhaps, and attentiveness as an idea, a meditation upon attentiveness. And also the relationship between art and life and antiquity, by which I mean Greece specifically, and with contemporary life. So in this case, engaging more with connoisseurship and also with cultural values. And then speaking of walking meditation, these Gregory the 13th frescoes being in these staircases that people are moving by with something that also connected with meditation. I just chose random order here. I want to just speak first about Lauren's talk. What comes immediately to mind is the nearly contemporary movement called Devotee Moderna, which also took place in Northern Europe, Netherlands, and Northern Europe in the 14th century. So around the same time as the Coffret. And its application to art. So this idea of focusing on the inner devotions and short periods of meditation, but using artworks, whether paintings or objects, as a prompt to meditation, which is precisely what this box is doing. So I'm thinking there must be, is there, I'm not a specialist in that period, but is there perhaps a climate of Devotee Moderna type meditation that might connect with that box that might enliven it? This idea of active meditation using an artwork as a prompt. Caitlin's talk, very interesting how you use reception theory to the cross and look at the ways in which different kinds of people interpret it. You also look at issues of hybridity, which someone who works in post-colonial stuff. I find very interesting because it's almost exclusively used in these later periods, and particularly in post-colonial theory. But here we have a very good example of pre-Christian beliefs and talking stones and screaming stones being incorporated into these beliefs about kingship and ideas about kingship. So they interact with Christian ones. I would also like to learn more about the kinds of procession that passed around this cross. What did people do specifically with this cross? How did they engage with it physically? And also perhaps this relationship to liturgy, to what was going on in the church across from it. It is sort of like an outdoor rude screen in a sense that you go past it and get into the church. I lived for several years in Northeast Scotland and so I personally am intrigued with parallels in that part of the world. I lived on a farm surrounded by stone circles, by recumbent stones, and by fantastic pictures stones. In fact, I was a five minute walk from the famous Maiden Stone. And just are there parallels in the pictures world that might be worth exploring? Tiffany, I would like to know how these individual scenes related specifically to space. You talk about relations to past cycles, to other art forms, but how did they work in those space? Was there a specific choice to have particular scenes from Peter's life in particular staircases? The reason I ask is that in some Cinquecento Roman fresco cycles, that was a very important thing. I'm thinking particularly of the Novitiate Chapel Recreation Room and Hospital, aside of the Drale Quirinale, which are no longer there, but are described in great detail in which the imagery in the frescoes connects with what you do in a particular room. And in fact, hallways and staircases were places that depicted scenes that involve travel and involve moving. So there was a distinct connection there. So that's something I was just interested in hearing more about. Also, you said that interesting thing about activating the capital of earlier popes and how it's not a copy. That's something that's very deliberate as a way of legitimizing your rule. And it brought to mind what I was talking about yesterday. Someone actually was also asking questions about is Wauquee Stoff's Palace a copy or is it something else? But Wauquee Stoff was very consciously imitating the court and the ideals of Louis XIV. So he was using the capital, in this case, of an earlier king to legitimize his rule. Yes, so this walking meditation through these staircases, something like Zen walking meditation fascinates me. Perhaps there is no relationship in this case, but there are another ones. Daniel, a fascinating case of repurposing religious or at least commemorative art, whether we're talking about Apollo or an athlete, for example, for a domestic personal function. As you mentioned, iconography is less important. And this is interesting just because we are so focused on iconography in this field. But I was intrigued by the issue of style and connoisseurship. Very specific archaizing styles were chosen. And in one case, in the House of the Collector of Greek Antiquities, how did owners play with style? And it was a very playful thing, I think too, right? It was done with wit to arrive at just the right attentive figure for your own personal setting and for your own dinner party. What were you trying to communicate through style specifically? And you made that interesting point about the figural language inherent in Greek sculpture, made Greek sculpture appropriate for this role. So that was interesting too. I've just been told I'm to shut up, but just I'll be brief. And one name that didn't come up in your presentation, I thought I've read away was Pygmalion. You're talking about using or taking a sculpture and making it come alive, returning our own view with your attentiveness, sort of the Pygmalion idea. So I think I would like to, on that note, hand it over to the floor. And I think I sit there and we just do just open it up to questions, or how does that work? Yeah? All right, let's do that. If I can take questions. Yes, I think a lot actually has been made of their nudity in terms of the eroticism of certain actual slaves that the Romans kept, little boys, the poor delicatus, and that these somehow are, that's the immediate kind of social meaning that's residing in these statues. But as you say, not many of them have been reconstructed with their trays, except for the one, this one, which he doesn't actually have his tray top. But when they have the trays, the whole, yeah, that whole region is sort of covered up and they look very statue-like despite that. And it also sort of eradicates the one in the center has been, it's been talked about how his contra-pasta was a little bit too plucky, like that's not how Greek statues would have looked and it's a Roman sort of riff on contra-pasta and it's exaggerated, but with the trays, these big sort of bulky tray structures, a lot of that gets kind of covered up. And I think that's why style, I mean, I'm not sure how to account for the difference of style other than, I mean, personal taste is one way to account for the very archaizing boy with these other sorts of heirloom objects that were found in the house. And I think a boy who looked like he was doing something tray-like and could be equipped with it was what they wanted. And obviously we have this aspect that these are Greek statues. So they operated on a variety of appeals to Greek artistic history, I think. Yeah, I mean, I'm glad that I did that Photoshop. It looks ridiculous, but those are actually real aerotines, that's Roman aerotine wear. So I just wanted a contrast with his skin, but it looks like they're cartoons, but they're not. So scholars don't actually know for sure what was put into the boxes. And there's a debate if they actually served as engagement presence at all. That's the general scholarly consensus, but there are a couple academics in Germany in particular who push back on that and say that there isn't enough evidence, even though almost all of these boxes, they show the type of imagery that would be appropriate for courtly love in these kinds of processes and gestures. But so most scholars think because this box is quite small. And so they think it could have held small trinkets, jewelry, pendants that were exchanged between the two individuals and in the couple. But I mean, once it was in, set in to the chamber and it was kept after like the, they got engaged and then they were married. I imagine a host of other small things, small personal things that meant something to the individual who owned the box could be placed inside of it. And I'm actually going to the Met in a week to look at this box. So I'm going to pay close attention to the paint and where it is worn. And all these images are from their site and they're excellent. And you can see definitely that it has been used. And so I think that it does speak of it being, held and I mean, because it's a box, you can't use a box unless you like, hold and move and open. And so I definitely think that this shows use. But I'm also happy that you can still see some of the paint and gilding. Yeah, that's a good question. Well, and a problem with that too is what locks are original and what locks aren't. And that's actually something that I'm trying to grapple with right now. I can't give you a good estimate at this, at this precise time because it's still something that I'm trying to actively go through. But for my dissertation, I'm interested in the boxes that have imagery underneath the lid. And there's a constellation of 18 boxes that have images underneath the lid. And all of them, I'm pretty sure do have locks, but this is the only one that has a heart-shaped lock. And from what I understand, I think the heart is original, but the other, you can't see it, but on the corners and stuff on the outside, all of that iron is not. And yeah, so that's a very good question and that's a question that I'm gonna be exploring as I continue working. So I feel like I'm talking into one of those cups. In your photo reconstruction. First, I just wanted to say that I think that art history is in really good hands by the evidence of all four papers this morning. Really quite splendid. So I would like to hear the answers to some of Professor Bailey's questions. Perhaps we could start with Tiffany's because I was thinking as well as you had your different locations of the stair frescoes and the different locations of the rooms, very specific rooms quite far apart. And whether there's any textual evidence, particularly in the earlier guidebooks that would give you some inkling as to whether these had an adjacency program or a progression through the palace program. Thank you for that question. It's hot. The answer to this, I think, if we go back to the slide where we have the two, it's in the room of the Saladelli's Vecchia Svizzari, which is essentially the old room of the Swiss Guard. The Svizzari paints, one more, one more forward, this one. In terms of programs, so you have essentially what is the calling of Peter and then the introduction slash naming of Peter. This is where the old Swiss Guard kept their battlements, their guards and wares and all their equipment is stored here. So in essence, one of the things that I think is very interesting about the way the narrative builds is that if you were a Swiss Guard member, you're reinforcing this idea of Peter being called, you are being called. You are being named under Peter, you will serve under Peter. So there's that very implicit connection. The other side of this is thinking about what Dr. Cooper is saying is that they're spread apart. Now, here's the problem. So the earlier texts, so before Shatard and Taya, when they're walking through the palace, they're very disjointed. So it points back to the problem of the spectatorship, which is who would have had access to this and who would have been able to see it. The ceremonial route that you would have anticipated exiting the Basilica, you would have seen the Sopproporto, which is the exact biography that I found in the Vatican Archive. So a person who is just kind of coming to the palace, they're going to see Gregory, whether they have a papal audience or they themselves are entertaining the court, instantly they would have theoretically started in St. Peter's, walked out, seen the acts of the apostles across the top, walked around the front, gone through the Scala Regia, hit the Scala del Marchello, but in turning to go towards the Capella Palena, you should have theoretically seen the washing of the feet, a last supper on the opposite side of that and the tribute money, which kind of would have been fascinating because it's reinforcing these ideas of servitude, but also the distinction between church and state. And if we think about Gregory's pontificate at this point, Spain is weighing heavily. And in fact, it is Spain who actually elects him during his conclave. They kind of blindside Cardinal Farnese who thinks he's going to get it. Spain's like, there's no chance, find someone else. So he has to kind of run to the Medesci and be like, okay, who will you vote for? And they're like, we'll take the Bon Campania. And they're like, fine, just elect him. In a way, this need to distinguish papal primacy from what is this problematic relationship with the empire can be thought of through these stairs, which is again reinforced in the Medals that what represents Peter and his identity is filtered through the lens of apostolic primacy as discipleship. And remember, you have a choice now. You can be Roman Catholic or you can not be Roman Catholic. And in framing this debate about identity theory, essentially of Roman Catholicism, the stairs themselves are saying like, what's at stake now in being Roman Catholic as opposed to if you back up and think about even the Sistina, the way the Sistina works typologically to think of Christ and Moses. It's very heavy handed. You see that giving of the keys right in the middle and it is staged with such beautiful one point perspective to really hit you over the head. He's the one in charge. You start seeing even with Leo the 10th and the tapestries a more nuanced approach that even something that is the charge to Peter as opposed to the giving of the keys is taking a little bit of a step back to think more about how they're framing their identity. So when you get even later to Gregory the 13th, there is this moment where saying I am in charge is no longer needed as such an abrupt statement, but I'm in charge because look at what all of my predecessors have done, look at what I have inherited essentially. The other question that goes back to you which is like how on earth did you find these or there could be more. There could very well be more. All the staircases and all the staircases. Yeah, so you have to think about the stairs that are going to the Raphael Lodja, the stairs that are going around the side to what it would be the front of Bramante stairs. Essentially in the 18th century, when the palace is reconfigured, those staircases are drastically renovated. So today if you were to go look for these stairs like the ones I show in the photographs, it's a coat closet. Like when you go through you wouldn't, you would have no idea this is a program. Eventually the goal is to go back with Todd Marder and take what is essentially Chetardentaya and walk with Vitaly Zankatin, the exact layout that is described and say okay, there should be an image here, that's a door, what's on the other side or where are there potentially missing images? I hope that answers the question. Yes, I think. So you had a number of questions all over the place that I talk about in my dissertation so I'm happy to answer all of them. I'll start with Scotland I guess because that's the closest. So there are crosses there of course. They were pulled down much more in the Protestant Reformation but in Ireland that happened but just not as much and in Ireland they were actually in the Protestant heavy areas, they moved inside the churches. So it's interesting about controlling that, yeah, in Ireland. And they weren't meant to be but they were moved into the church. It just came out of me traveling around Ireland and not being able to get access to some of them for the Catholic areas. They're outside and they're in cow pastures and things like that. But yeah, the Protestant churches there and there. In Scotland, picture stones, primarily they do have a lot of martial imagery and they're weird and they're cool. But yeah, and a lot, there's a lot of hunting scenes and warrior scenes. Particularly crosses, the Dublin Cross is one that's probably closest to the cross of the scriptures. It has an inscription of Constantine, there's a Scottish king and it's in the valley of Strathearn and it may have kind of marked boundaries in a similar way and claimed kingship but that kind of ruling dynasty got wiped out by the Vikings. The Ruthwell Cross, I mentioned, it has the inscriptions going around it in ruins. And the Gosford Cross, which is interesting when you spoke about hybridity because it's a cross that also has scenes from Ragnarok on it. So it's a Viking kind of area that that was in. And that takes me over to your area of specialty. Previous research that I've completed is on the atrial crosses of New Spain. And I'm, yeah, so it actually came out of a seminar class with Monica Dominguez Torres. So it was comparing how these have been studied methodologically. And I would say something like the cross of the scriptures, it's not right, it's 900, it's not right when Christianity came. There's still kind of figuring out things but not to the extent of New Spain where I was talking about it earlier with someone. There's like a Judas Scorpion. They use obsidian in their crosses. It's just an area that's untapped. And but that, studying that up bring insight to how I'm approaching high crosses. And what primarily came out of it is site specificity and locality because none of these crosses have been cracked per se. There's not been really a full reading that's based on a textual account. It's very piecemeal and we're trying to figure it out and put them together. The cross of the scriptures is unique in that it's tied to a person, right? And probably a date. Clomic Noise was a center of learning there's a lot written on it and not all the crosses are like that. So I was able to write so much on it and usually they are thought of primarily devotional in the very beginning just purely didactic. I mean the cross of the scriptures, right? That you thought illiterate medieval people were just, oh I'm gonna learn the gospel stories, right? They're familiar with it. And it is at a monastery. But so I'm trying to break away with that with the inscription and read about kingship into that. How the ceremonies would have been kind of rich is the only thing I really know is that there is a tradition of going clockwise around the sites. Yeah, Dishil, Dish means right in Irish. And so you would proceed around the site or the object three times. And you still see some of that? Yeah, three times. Three was a sacred number and you see it a lot. There's a lot of triads and even back into kind of older Irish things, the three-fold deaths heroes would have and things like that. So it's three in Ireland and probably the Trinity, right? It was placed into that. And there's also, it's not in this image, there's three crosses at the site. Sorry, I should have, it's probably in the big over screen version of it. Yeah, you can't see them because there's a lot of crosses now. There were three crosses at the site. No, a separate, the other two have very kind of, they're dominated by non-figural. There's a couple images, there's a crucifixion. I mean, they could have thought of that later, but it's not necessarily hitting you over the head with it. But there are still kind of ceremonies where you would process entirely around the site. And when you get to the cross, I would say because the inscription is at the shaft, the base of it, it would be kneeling. So you would look at that straight on when you were praying. So I can't really answer more to the liturgy. Other than scholars have tried to attempt to read it by following the sun and how it progressed around the day. And perhaps that's a way of reading it. People have done things with like water and blood and all these different things. But every cross is different and you need to at site. And so that's kind of where I'm trying to dig into the placement of where it's at. And this one, all at all of these borders and having a name of a king and him possibly being on it is what spoke to me for this one. And since you mentioned those ones in Mexico, I mean, they were all counterclockwise because they had to process counterclockwise. Yeah, counterclockwise, yeah. So yeah, they're- Perhaps they're saying- I don't know. I think like Ireland, when I talked about kind of the stone, like this doesn't happen elsewhere. That's the only comparable body of stone crosses that I've seen really. And I think it's happening in these two places. I don't think they're exactly related at all. But I think that they both have this strong tradition of stonework and this respect for it. And they kind of already have the skills in a way, especially in New Spain. And this idea that this is part of this, that that's why it emerged. Also, a fun note, in New Spain, there was a decree. They used to be made out of wood, but they kept getting hit by lightning or falling over. And so they're like, we're gonna make these out of stone now so people stop questioning that. Irish scholars have been increasingly trying to figure out, were there wooden precedents before that? Why did this happen? But we have the answer for New Spain, which is great. But we don't for you? No, it's just- They resemble wooden crosses with kind of metalwork and things like that, or metal crosses. Yeah. I always assumed that they weren't transplants. Yeah, that's the most commonly, I mean, yeah, all these examples. The Vikings, other Irish people, burning sites, I think you said yesterday, it's hard to destroy a stone city. It is very hard to destroy a stone cross and a stone. Yeah, so I think all of those different things, and they had the power and the wealth at this time all coming up. Sorry, very long answer. Thank you. How are we doing on time? Okay, wrapping up. Yeah, so your question was about connoisseurship. Yeah. So I actually think that these statues speak to something that's not very connoisseurial in the sense that we understand it as knowing dates and named periods, dials and artists. I mean, I spoke about them in those terms because that's how we understand them in terms of modern art history. But I think this Roman response to what the statue looked like they're doing, and then we're going to, I think you were right to say that it was a playful sort of response. I mean, yeah, I think Roman connoisseurship is a difficult thing to pin down because the only text we have are rhetoricians sort of comparing visual styles to rhetorical styles and heavy stuff. Yeah, so to say, I think these are elusive in terms of how the Romans were looking at Greek art. I would say it's not connoisseurship but something, a popular response to a deep-seated desire to fill one's life with the signs of Greek culture. Yeah, you're a Greek antiquarian. Who knows this connoisseurship? Well, I mean, we have a couple of those archaizing things and some of those other ones may not have been tray-bearers but the old idea about that archaizing one is that he looks sort of like he should be holding something and the archaic style as being sort of more statue-like, more object-like than human-like. So that's an important point right there. Right, but yeah, so a fascinating response to Greek statue that I would say is not very connoisseurial in any way that we understand it. I'll be super fast. Yeah, you are exactly right in that there are a lot of instances in the contemporaneous culture in that time when the caskets are being made. I mean, these types of objects, I mean, they are meant to be moved and you have this in a lot of different kind of objects, a lot of different kinds of things that people would have known the way they move through books, the way they move through churches and different sites and it's just, it's such a part of that culture and a big part of my dissertation is to look in, trying to look at these boxes in a way in their cultural context that hasn't been done before, to try to expand how they would have spoken to other things that are happening at that time because these boxes, as I said, they haven't gotten a lot of attention most of the time when people do speak of them, it's just like small blurbs and exhibition catalogs and it's just no one has taken the time since like the 20s, Heinrich Kolhausen, German scholarship to even, like his book is the only one that has ever been done on all of these containers and all the ones that I am kind of like, you know, trying to bring together in my project, it's they haven't ever all been brought together. And so yes, so I'm trying to tie them into things that you have brought up and other things happening. Yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah. Are you going to pick this out? Are you going to get to open it, pick it up? I hope so. Because that's actually pretty important, I would think. Well, I've been- If you're wearing the white gloves, I think you need to pick it up. I hope so. There's a box that I'm being allowed to see that's been on loan there for a very long time and I've already been told I'm not allowed to touch it. So that's- But this one? This one, I'm not sure yet. This, yeah, I hope so, I hope so too. The other box that I'm going to see, it's all scenes from the life of the Virgin and Harry Boeber a long time ago, he just made a small comment in an exhibition catalog that he said it might be a 3D hours of the Virgin and no one has taken that and done anything with it. And I think that's kind of an important observation for how these boxes would work that just has been like completely ignored. And this other box, the one that I'm not allowed to touch, it was probably made in the same area, possibly by the same artist as this box. So, trying to knit all these things together. Yeah. Good, thank you, everybody.