 Welcome back everyone. We'll give a few more minutes for folks to come on in. Hi everyone. Good morning. Hi Amy. Greetings. And as I look at the deck, two groups didn't provide updates this time around, but I know that tag security is really going to want to be able to say things, so Emily, I might lean on you to be able to talk about the security con that just happened. Yeah, of course. That's fine. Cool. I didn't think you might at all, but it was like the heads up. I think they're all a little busy this week recovering from that. So, you know, good times. Should we get started? Yeah, we've got 20 folks here. We can rock and roll. So, yeah. Welcome. Welcome. You have made it to the meeting. You are here, or you're watching the recording, one of the two. And this is my opportunity to be able to welcome in our new members, Duffy and Nikita. So we have new people. Hooray. Hooray is going to be fun. We also want to thank Aaron and Harry. Yes. About going members. Absolutely. Our emeritus members that are joining the illustrious group, people that have helped us out a lot. So, and welcome back to Dave and Kathy. Tim's your meeting rock and roll. Okay, so let's start with the tax storage. Anybody here from tax storage? Yeah. Hi. Yeah. Okay, so on tax storage. We had a cloud native PG project presented last year. We're trying to bring them back for another presentation. And they were also reapplying for the sandbox project. So the first initiative we have is that tax storage and the community are collaborating on a white paper. That describes the patterns of running data on Kubernetes. Focusing on databases initially. We have been discussing it in the last few meetings. We have been wrapped by paper outline. Folks from the tag and the okay, helping discussing and providing feedback. We also working on building a use case template for the story projects based on our CNCF storage landscape by paper. We will also be using information from our database by paper that we're working on to fill in that template. And we got the, the cognitive disaster recovery paper completed published. And we still need some work to do to finish the to finalize the performance by paper. That's all from tax storage. Sounds good. Let me, can I ask you a couple of questions? The cloud native PG, did they share what was the issue last time when they applied and how they are doing better than now? They didn't really say there's any issues. I think they last time when they presented, we have some follow up questions. They say they will come back. We just haven't set a time for them to come, but they say they will come back. Okay, so you're, you're going to set up a meeting and then they're going to come and present. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. The second one I was very while you were seeing white papers a few times, like how do we know that folks are looking at the white paper and it, it's actually, you know, being used in the wild. So to say, do we have any metrics or something? That's actually a good question. So, so I know that for the, for those two white papers, the, the landscape by paper, I did see someone send out some messages on LinkedIn saying hey, this is a great paper. Some feedback. I'm not sure how to measure the metrics and for the, and also the other one, the clownating disaster recovery. Yeah. There are a few people who actually asked me about that paper. So I know that paper. Right. People. I'm not sure if there is a better way of measuring, you know. Yeah, maybe we should ask Amy, Amy. Is there a way we can like, publicize these and, you know, get some download statistics or something, right? We don't want to be yelling to the wide. No, I totally get that I'm kind of struggling a little bit in terms of like the, what would be a meaningful metric and how would we capture that downloads is one way to be able to do it, but Emily you had a hand. Yeah, so I would highly recommend coordinating with the CNCF to formulate blog posts around these. So that will drive both visibility because there's a lot of folks that watch the blog posts and sending them out to the TOC public mailing list so that you get more visibility and awareness through that channel. We've often in the past when tax security does papers, we've also leveraged our Twitter account so you can coordinate with CNCF on getting a retweet of that paper going out, as well as on LinkedIn as well. So there's a couple of different things for the blog post I would recommend filing an issue with the service desk to go ahead and get that started. Beyond that I think those are really good high visibility platforms for elevating this and kind of getting that content out there. As far as confirming the metrics for who's accessing that content as long as your content is stored within the GitHub repo. There are some metrics in GitHub about how that page is being accessed and where it's coming from. So you can actually see who's been looking at that information. Yeah, so basically what we are saying is, let's try to do some post activities after white papers are launched. Maybe write it down so it'll be useful for both tax storage as well as other folks. Yeah, all the time. Exactly. Okay, yeah, yeah, that's such a good idea. Yeah, we should do that. Yeah. We just have been discussing that, presenting that at the QCOM, but we have not done blog posts or even LinkedIn treatment and stuff like that. So, great idea. Yeah. Good one. Okay. Anything else? Yeah, but I think the information they have is a little old. I think it's by it's like 2021 that's the last day what they have. Anything else? That's it. Okay, can we go to the next one. I've skipped the security slide. So runtime will be up in a moment, but I'm going to pass to Emily to be able to chat a little bit about the security tag. Um, so everyone is in full recovery from cloud native security con, which happened in Seattle last week for those of you that were able to join us. Thank you so much. We appreciate your attendance for those of you that couldn't make it. We hope you were able to stream the live keynotes. Everything was fantastic. We had excellent, excellent feedback from attendees. A lot of the responses and feedback we received were that the content was more, it was significantly deeper and more enriching to their work. In some cases, it was suggested that like, while the security track at cube con provides a great first level of information for individuals in a domain specific space like security looking for that additional content. Having that dedicated event just to focus on those has been extremely beneficial for them attendees walked away with a lot of really good technical technically deep discussions. There was great feedback about the size of the conference as well. It wasn't too big. It was a good size. People were able to network and communicate with each other effectively and actually meet new peers. So overall smashing success across the board, I would say. Sounds good. A couple of questions for you, Emily. So did you have the team dinner and how many people showed up. So tax security was actually able to hold a dinner like they used to pre pandemic. They had a ton of people show up. They're working on, I believe, updating the repo for those meetups with that picture. But it was a very, very large table of community members that were able to meet and in person and talk about how they've been enjoying the conference. Nice. That was one PR that I kept, you know, getting feedback notifications on I want to join I want to join kind of thing. So that's why I was curious. The other one was, do you see this as a pattern that we can replicate with other. I do. And we've been talking about this a lot within both cube con co chairs as well as the tag security about what is the next iteration of the color into the standalone event while still providing that same level of content within cube con. So what right now is going on is we're exploring the creation of a security village within cube con proper is like a mini conference within the primary conference itself. If this model is successful. I believe that other additional technical domains can follow suit and creation of those specialized villages within cube con to really drive attendees to those more advanced topics of information that are really centered around like storage or networking or runtime or app delivery. I think that I think we have a high likelihood of that being successful but we do need to try things out and figure out how it'll work. The village will first show up in EU as I understand it. And then from there we'll figure out how it's going to look for North America but this is all like very much in flux discussions are still going on live so I don't want to commit anybody to anything but we're looking at how we can make this work across the board. So Amy. CNC was involved in this. Right and. Yes. Yes, yes, this is cloud native security con. Yes. Okay, so if any of the other six other tags want to do this then the process would be, you know, reach out to you all and get get the ball rolling. Yeah, I think so I mean part of it is sort of like the security tag has had so much history and so much like you know pieces coming together that I'm not sure if we have like a process yet to be able to replicate it but yeah if you're interested we can we can look towards what would be possible. Okay, sounds good. I'm asking because I know it's a sick storage. Pre pandemic in the Kubernetes side of things. They used to have like today. You know, everybody shows up somewhere in the valley kind of thing. So, maybe it's time to revive something like that string. Yeah, we have not had that for a long time. Even for the cube con we just don't have the amount of people that we used to have. Yeah, so we'll see at least last time we didn't really get the critical mass. Okay, for, yeah, for a meet up. Yeah, good goal to work towards. Yeah, yeah sure sure yeah I'll see yeah. Maybe we should talk about this one and see how many people will be there. We've got plenty of time. I mean, we don't have plenty of time for for everything but we can, we can work towards like being able to have a group. Yeah, we can have a small life, you know, if we can have like as big as we had before, but we can have a small meet up. Yeah. So, Duffy Nikita jumping anytime. I don't want to be the only one talking either. So, these are informal and fun. This is our tag update meeting. Exactly. So, tag runtime. So Nikita is going to provide the update she's been working. So yeah, so like for tag runtime, we've had a couple of projects present at our meetings and there's also been some great progress happening in our working group activities. So, talking about the projects we've had presentations from go and capsule. So if you're not familiar with go it helps you build container images from go programs and pushes them to container registries. The interesting part is that it does all of this without requiring you to write a Docker file or even installing Docker itself on your machine. And it's also been recently accepted into the CNCS framework. So something that we talked about them were about expanding the pool of contributors and things on the roadmap like publishing case studies, adding support for finding images and adding some more ecosystem integration. So moving over to capsule, the presentation and demo work awesome I recommend really checking out the meeting recording. So that's why the project. So, essentially what happens is it provides a multi running environment for communities that has this abstraction called a tenant, which is basically a grouping of communities namespaces and within each tenant users are free to create their services and share all the assigned resources. So, one thing that was really nice from the meeting was that they also invited an end user from gaming company, if I recall correctly, who had been using this in production successfully to share their experience. And actually so like the end users also been contributing to the project will develop a pretty cool to pay. They wanted to consider applying to the CNCS framework. So we gave them a rundown of the process that contributions seem to be mostly from a single company. So we also suggested that they expand the first pool of contributors interact with the multi time and the working group in Kubernetes, and especially the hierarchy or namespaces project was in that working group. We also have a few more products in our pipeline for next meetings, including flat cut, who have also recently applied for incubation. In fact, actually the project and this has been so great lately that we've also had to schedule a few additional meetings compared to a regular. So that's been really nice. Good problem to have. So moving over to working group activities. So the IOT edge working group published the first edition of the edge native applications principles right people, which is the name suggests that list down a set of principles for being at native. And it also took it a step further by using these principles to consolidate an edge landscape. This is a work in progress currently, but I think we already have like 136 projects on there. It was nice to see a shout out to this working group with notes on how folks can actually get involved in this working group itself. This is a presentation from I think an engineer from Sony that was in the Alibaba cloud developer summit in China. And similar to what the edge working group is doing we also have the batch working group that's going to be putting out one page or two mainly layout the main tools in the CNC batch landscape today that's going to just get started with it. And the CDI that is the container device interface side of things. There was some improvements made to the dynamic resource allocation cap for communities 127. This feature essentially use a CDI under the hood to do it's device injection so the improvements mainly sent out around like passing information about CDI devices more efficiently and for the CRI is now extended to accept CDI devices directly. There's also been discussion about CDI support for Docker. So this was discussed in the movies, maintain a call in the last week. And the working group members are now working with movie maintainers to figure out what Docker engine changes very quiet and it will support. We also submitted a session for KubeCon Amsterdam and I guess it's probably a condition of this year because it's small group and we got accepted over to the session and conference. Yeah, for time and time. Sounds good. So the CDI is it already there in continuity. Yes. Okay, sounds good. The other question that like they seem to be a bunch of multi tenancy stuff popping up. It would be good to write, do a one pager or white paper, you know, whatever you've been doing for other areas. Do that for multi tenancy and try to get folks from the project like capsule v cluster and those kinds of things and like get get them together and figure out like okay who's doing what what works what doesn't work or things like that. Do you think that that would be a good good thing to do go do. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. I think it's a great idea. I mean the capsule team seem pretty interested in growing the ecosystem. And I think they're thinking about applying for incubation. So I think we can reach out to them and see if they're interested in, you know, drive in a white paper and maybe reaching out to other projects and see if they're interested. Okay. Sounds good. Any other questions from to see folks or anybody else on the call. Yeah, I have a suggestion I think this is this is what close OS this project. You know, for example, for the confidential computing with Western. It's very interesting there's a there are a lot of you know initiative on that side. Yeah, we can consolidate those efforts. That would be great, you know, so I think like white paper or some introduction about each of these party to promote, you know, the visibility so that other contributors working in the same areas. That would be good. Yeah makes sense. I like Kathy suggestion because I think it is very useful, especially as a blog post because wasn't as such an, you know, area where a lot of teams are working on it. Also a lot of, you know, different projects right so again, you know, we're having that comparison available in a searchable format is always helpful. Yeah, and I think there's some other projects in the CSCF that are in the wasm ecosystem so we can also reach out to them. Justin, have you been following the confidential computing assets, not the wasm side. Is there any other recent activities or something that folks are doing. Well, actually the most recent thing is that profi and the company that's sponsoring an inox has just shut down. But, um, yeah, I mean there is a bunch of other stuff going on. But yeah, I'm not sure what's going on. I need to catch up with some people that just happened a couple of days ago. Okay. Sounds good. Thank you. Let's go on to the next one. Observability. Hi, everyone. Good morning. We had some some amount of activity, you know, during the first couple of months here. And just wanted to kind of call out what's in progress, a couple of exciting initiatives that have picked up steam. And this is based on the first initiative, which was the observability query standard work group that has been actually a hot topic for a few, quite a few months now and there was a lot of good conversation and discussion around the need for a query standard as different vendors build their own query standards and or query languages and DSL and roll them out. Really the fragmentation that is felt at the end user level right and and a work group has been proposed in the in the tag observability area where you know we are encouraging different folks who had actually had a quite an in depth discussion at KubeCon in Detroit, leading up to actually making a proposal for an initial you know scope as well as a charter so that's ongoing that's really exciting to see that initiative pick up eBay as well as Netflix have been coming from you know these two core, you know, end users have been leading this discussion. And looking forward to kind of driving that. And perhaps you know actually spinning it off as a web group so that discussion is ongoing and there's also a proposal available. So exciting. So I decided as a community as an observability community cross projects to kind of keep it at the tag level because again, and reference spec could be suggested from such a work group and then implementation could be you know easily embedded in open telemetry or other projects, you know why which are really working with closely. So that's the update on that. Matt, did you want to give an update quickly on land growth of the landscape graph project. So the this project I've spoken about last summer, when we kind of conceptualized it and proved out some concepts. It's been dormant for a quarter or two but later this month, we intend to open the door to contribution and start having project meetings for anyone interested. I'll speak to a little bit in today's tag meeting but I don't want to spend a ton of time. There's some links there for those that are interested. In short, it takes the data behind the landscape and builds a labeled property graph so that we can use graph analysis techniques versus more rectangular relational, if you will, techniques. So that that's happening. The group that's the Kubernetes observability work group or observe k8s that group will have an update in next month's TOC meeting, but the TLDR is it remains to be seen what the end end point of this is sort of in parallel there's the open telemetry demo application stack which really has an earlier fork up so we might actually roll changes there, but we'll back to open telemetry and call it a day or perhaps leave something more permanent in place but we'll have an update next month. I did want to just mention that tell all your friends. If you have any case studies or end user sort of stories or experiences using observability tooling or open source projects within the CNCF or otherwise. Please send us a message to us up or friendly case in point in today's tag observability meeting which immediately follows to see me in here. This is Samuel from eBay. I will lead a long time ago but he's talking about how and why you be pivoted to open telemetry. There's a blog post from a few months ago. It's actually a really cool story that's a good blend of business and technical and and highlights why hotel is gaining adoption at the rates we've been seeing, which is great for the project on the 14th. This is still pending. This is a quick update from Quine. If you're not familiar with Quine, it's a streaming graph interpreter, which is kind of a new thing. It's an MIT licensed project that's the result of 78 years of DARPA funded research into basically something that can work in streaming pipelines and read a bunch of little things. At the other side, I have more interesting correlated aggregated things, but unlike a lot of existing solutions that use a timing window, you know, and you only have that it uses a stateful graph. So you don't have a top number of stores to do that. So you effectively don't have a timing window anymore. So it's quite good for a lot of observability use cases. We posit. And so he will come to give a talk hopefully about that project. Yeah, so that's kind of what's on the immediate agenda for the tag. Do you want to finish out on that? Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. And then thanks Matt. I mean, again, just wanted to highlight that our speaker series has been pretty successful, you know, again, just engaging as well as pulling in different, you know, case studies from the end user world as well as from actual project subject matter experts from maintainers from different projects in the observability space. There's also a lot of energy, you know, in specific topics, such as cost management, you know, leveraging observability techniques. So again, you know, all these talks are recorded. It might be worth, you know, kind of leveraging some of these for a special series that is available and tagged on our YouTube channel. We wanted to call out the cube con planning, because I think that there's a fair bit of excitement around the observability day which again super, you know, happy to see a convergence of multiple, you know, events kind of happening, converging into one day because it really enables all the projects to work together as well as the larger community to really converge together. Again, every project has made a significant effort to again reiterate the call for proposals and the observability track also is kind of enriched from a lot of the activity in this, you know, around the observability day. So looking forward to kind of having that energy at you at keep calling you and also the maintainer track where we do plan to, you know, again have a set of discussions around some of the key topics that have been important to all the different maintainers as well as end users who participate. And just to wrap it up, again, I'm sorry we're running a bit late but it wanted to call out, you know, again, how do we better communicate with the to see because I think that there's a lot of activity that is happening on the projects you know both innovative features as well as you know various projects going through different phases of growth as from a contributor standpoint, but I think that it would be useful to have more formal mechanism of communicating with the to see in some amount of detail on these projects because often you know there is a lot of interest from different community members who want to participate in the tag, but don't necessarily have a process for participation other than just joining in and attending. I can totally understand that it is you know as much as what people want to contribute to and how people get involved, but it's also encouraging folks you know with a clear process. So folks want to become tech leads or co chairs, you know, again having some of that process established and published would be useful so really working closely with the to see to define at least some criteria which you know then the larger projects and communities can leverage to to get more involved. So wanted to call that out because I think we'd like to have a more detailed conversation about you know how do we actually leverage perhaps even contributor strategy. The tag, you know, experts there as well as the to see itself to get some guidance. If you could write you, you talked about a lot of different areas that I think we've discussed in the past with the tag chairs as well as with the to see it at previous cube kinds. If you could write down a couple of those points and send that to the to see mailing list that way we we have some form of documentation around them because I believe we already have an open issue on talk and tag communication and better partnership there. Yep, James, an issue would actually probably that's great. That's great. That's a great suggestion. I'm really happy to do that. And again, you know, we can absolutely, if that's an easy way to do it. Absolutely. That's great. Yeah, I would be great to file the issue that way we have something we can work off and they open on February 21 we have that meeting. Sounds good. Yeah, yeah, that's a really hoping that one stays because February 21. I want to get all of the chairs together and to see members to be able to come talk about this. And separately, the to see liaisons are about to shake up because we've got a new to see so. Oh, fantastic. Thank you. Perfect timing for all of this. Exactly. And if you if you need like ongoing engagement with the to see we should figure out like what shape or form it takes, because we need to scale as well. So far we've been trying to do like, Hey, here are two liaisons. You can talk to you. But I don't know if that is working as well. Right. In fact, in fact, there's an issue. I don't know if you've seen it on the at least the tags observability side where folks are have raised the question who's our list. So speaking to the to the need, you know, just to just to be clear that we've seen obviously the explosive growth in the open source project, you know, the number of them over the last several years right now we see the vendor ecosystem leveraging those projects to bring various open source projects to market in that, you know, in this whole ecosystem so now we're going to see another, you know, iteration. And so as that happens, just to be we'll put this in the github issues but what level of technical interfight deal or interchange do you want to have between not just tags observability but other tags are in similar situation. Yeah, absolutely. I don't get it. Yeah. There's also one thing I forgot to put on a slide and I just didn't want to lose to lose sight of it. And that's the effort to add profiling continuous profiling or profiling reports as a formal signal type to open telemetry, which we've reported on it in past months that that is ongoing. It's transitioned to a more technical implementation focus discussion in open telemetry itself within that umbrella now that it's a formalized work stream there. And so open telemetry will be reporting on it but we can continue to give updates in the future but but that is still successfully on that's a good call out Matt. Thank you. I think I would like to say I like the idea of you know the tag defining some criteria or some governance, you know how to ramp up new contributors right so how to how they can become you know reviewers or leader or chair something like that. I think that's a that's a good thing you know to do. I can also, if you have some ideas, you know, we can help together. Yeah, I do I look forward to that conversation in a few weeks. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Also please review what is already there in sick security and I think tax security I think Emily always talks about. We've done it before a follow our lead kind of thing so take a look at that also so we can have a good conversation there. Awesome. Yeah, that's that's a great suggestion. Thank you. One other question. There was some issue around one of the vendors having some trouble with PR from somebody else. Yeah, did that get resolved or you know that was that was resolved. And again, the open telemetry project GC does plan to meet around you know, having guidelines from the CNCF to kind of handle, you know, different intervendor, you know, conversations are in public because I think that, you know, at some point, the project itself is focused on the technical aspects right and really when there are intervendor, you know, discussions or, you know, some kind of which shows up and influences the project. It is something where we would love to have the CNCF, you know, press liaison, for example, to kind of help in there because again, there were, you know, a couple of reporters who reached out and kind of pressurized some of the maintainers to make statements. So it is something that I think needs to have again, the same kind of communication where there is a clear guideline that he projects can reach out to press, you know, the press liaison and this is what you would do so we are putting together some guidelines on the open telemetry side to be able to work at CNCF and Amy just heads up I think if folks have reached out to you, we will be. So, you know, we were all watching it. So, and we were waiting to see if you can resolve it within the tag or you would come to us and, you know, we are waiting for that. But I'm glad it got sorted out but yes, I think it took some time and some effort from all of you to like get everything in a line. But yes, I agree with you, we should have a little bit more set of things that we need to. So, next time when this happens, we are better prepared for it. Yes and and you know, again, these kind of things can happen right because there are CNCF is, you know, has a amazing set of contributors, you know, coming in from the different members of the industry but also they are competitors often and and you know it is something that where we really don't want our projects to be affected by, you know, that kind of an interaction. So, having some clear guidelines there and perhaps, you know, having some clear process, even if it is, hey, you know, just reach out to this email ID and reach out to CNCF's press, you know, team would be. So let's log this as another issue. Sure. We'll see what we can do. All right, awesome. Thanks. Thank you for bringing that up. Sounds good. Thank you. Next one, please. Tag network. All right. We've, we've been struggling a bit for agenda. For a while. They've got a potential upcoming presentation from slime. And I actually don't know if they ended up submitting sent to sandbox or not, but that was to be a sandbox presentation. I haven't seen it go by yet. Okay. Okay. Then I'll reach out to them to get them to get them hooked in. They're an interesting project. We do have an upcoming agenda, a project update from network service mesh, which I think we'll focus on fact that that service mesh can run as a foundation for other service meshes and so on. So, yeah, and I think that's a good thing to do. I think that's a good thing to do. And as a result of that, I think that's a good thing to do. I think that that's a good thing to do. Thank you. So, yes, I want to thank you for being here. I'm glad to be here. And I think you should be presenting there. While we've had trouble with some of the agenda over the last couple of months, one thing that's been a consistent effort has been, well, commissioned by him to help create a, well, back then I think it was just called demo, the CNCF demo, and it was to try to get Kubernetes and Prometheus stood up in a scriptable way, such that people, you know, users could get familiar with Kubernetes and Prometheus as the first two projects inside of this demo. And so like carrying along in that same vein, this cloud native playground is something that I wanted to raise up today as an initiative from the Measury project, that I wanted to get some visibility to TLC members, maybe see how much you all feel like this makes sense that other projects might want to participate in this. The cloud native playground, this concept is that, well, in a visual and collaborative way, there would be a way of designing your infrastructure, your cloud native infrastructure. And so this playground is yet to be launched, but the hope is that there will be a set of, well, project specific best practices for how to configure individual projects and an easy way for users to come by and visually comprehend how their infrastructure is configured. Measury as a project has been originally focused on service mesh management, multi mesh management and performance management for those, but is an extensible platform for general infrastructure management. And one of the things that we've yearned to do is, well, is continuing that same vein in which the project was initially created kind of in a similar way as to what you find with playwithdocker.com or playwithkubernetes.com, that people get this sandbox environment to learn and explore. And so that's the sort of the genesis of this particular initiative. And as we go to socialize this with other projects, I figured we'd raise it up here. So something for people to potentially familiarize it with a little bit. It's a, Measury is a sandbox project. And so as we go to have a hosted version of Measury running and try to provide something of a safe environment in which people can learn about all of the individual CNCF projects. Yeah, it sounds good, Lee. I think you can send an intro email to the CNCF TOC and then we can make sure that it flows down to other, I mean, to the tags and the people not on the call and see how we can get the word out. Is this running on CNCF infrastructure? No, it's not. That's actually what I was in a roundabout way trying to get to right there at the end, which was, I don't know that that is afforded to sandbox projects or not, but. We can think of something. Yeah. Yeah, we can think of something, drop something into service desk and we'll take care of you. Absolutely. Equinix is very easy. Like just in the last week, I was able to set up some stuff for one of the projects. So yeah, we should be able to get something together, especially if you want other projects to do more here, it would make sense for it to be not tied just to one sandbox project, but also okay. So one question I had for you was I've been hearing fragments of conversations around like a CMI v2 of the specification. Is the tag one of the places where we would be able to collect people together because it's happening all over the place? Like some stuff in continuity, some in Kubernetes, some in like a rapport called container networking. So I don't know if you want to pull together people to say, hey, let's go do this and let's see, especially because there's a lot of good people in this tag and they've seen it all before. So that's why I'm curious if it would be something that you would like to continue. Yeah, absolutely. Actually, CNI was for me specifically one of the first projects that I'd done diligence on. And so yeah, do you consider that the best place to initiate that conversation is with the CNI maintainers and that they would know? Yeah, just figure out where it is happening at this point and figure out who's talking about it and let's see where it would naturally fall just because most of the people are coming from one place or the other. Gotcha. Yeah, we'll do. I'll gather some info, see if we can organize that, present some of that info for you guys to figure out. Get the people together in the room. I don't care exactly where it falls specifically. But as a leadership team, we should like, hey, you all should talk to each other and here is something to march towards. Yeah, I like the idea of this, like the playground, the sandbox environment for people to try out different projects. I think that's good. And if that can take off, I think the follow on what you can do is to publish some data on users' experience of using these different projects. So I think that information will be very useful for the end user to know, to choose, for example, if there are multiple service mesh projects and users' experiences. Yeah, to regurgitate that briefly. Yeah, not only is it for the service mesh projects, but just really any workload or any project that runs on Kubernetes and basically all of the CNCF projects, but like I think in part what Kathy, what you were saying is, yeah, it gives some of the projects an alternative venue to promote best practices with their projects that they're able to share some of those configuration best practices in a sandbox type environment. So as users come through to learn that they might do it in context of what the projects themselves are promoting or suggesting in terms of the configuration of those projects. Yeah, right, right. Or that could see how the developer velocity each party provides, right? Is the configuration simple or is it very complicated? I think those experiences, those are good information for the community to know. Okay, tag environmental sustainability. Hello, so a few updates from the tag. We created two new working groups, so these are also the first working groups. The first one is around communications with the streams events survey, like in general communication between like also different organizations and projects and so on. And then also we plan to do a website. So for example, about the survey last year, end of last year, we created the survey. We plan to do this not like every month or so, but if it like makes sense. So maybe we have like a small team around events, a small team around survey and so on. So you will see how it goes, but this is like roughly the plan. Maybe this will also change, maybe create like new working groups or not. But this is like the starting point. The second one is around tools and practices. For now, we plan to do like in addition to the current cloud native maturity model, or like do a separate one or do both. So this is not 100% clear. We are at the moment in contact with the green software foundation because they are also looking into the same direction and they have not yet something set up. So one possibility and maybe this is like also likely that we have both things. So we integrate with the cloud native maturity model and also contribute to the green software foundation or just collaborate in that way. About the landscape. So we have been working on collecting tools and like in general like landscape staff, organizations and so on for quite some time. It's like not yet finished. It's obviously, it's also not yet finished for the first version, but we plan to release it or the first version to show it in KubeCon.eu. And like the third stream in the second working group is around best practices. So there's already a few best practices in the green software space, but they're not mapped to cloud native and not to the cloud space. They're like general to software engineering. So our idea was to basically frame this in the software space and the cloud native space. And yeah, we are starting with these working groups. We plan to do a maybe bi-weekly meeting or something like this, see how it goes. And yeah, about the next topic, I already like briefly talked about the survey. So we collected a few responses to the survey and we are working on a presentation. We are currently thinking about how to publicize this. It's not finalized, but it looks interesting. So probably we will write the blog post. Maybe if there's enough content, maybe we can also do like a short webinar, maybe 20 minutes or something like this just to show the results. This is probably something that we will discuss next week in the meeting. So the next one also about KubeCon.eu. So our idea currently is that we have like two milestones, roughly two milestones. So KubeCon.eu milestone and the KubeCon.na milestone and that we have like a couple of things that we want to like do in half a year, roughly. So for example, for KubeCon.eu we have a milestone where we want to like have a landscape document ready and show already like our first idea is about the maturity model. And we will have a discussion tomorrow about the milestones itself and also like meetups, tag meetups, what we want to do, what went well like in KubeCon.na last year and what we can improve and so on. And the next item is about project presentations. So we discussed in the tag meetings that we would like to have project meetings just to connect with the creators of these projects and also to introduce them to the CNCF and just to have this communication flowing. So we want to have like every month or maybe we also can increase this but every month roughly a presentation half an hour or something about some tool. The first one would be KubeGreen and the one after that is it would be Kepler. And there are a lot of tools so this can take a while. And right, so next one. I'll let you pause here. We have one more group that I want to be able to make sure that we get to. Okay, I'll keep it like short. In the last meeting one contributor raised the issue that we would like to like elaborate a little bit more how to contribute to the tags or to the CNCF from like a non-technical point of view. So if you don't know GitHub, if you don't know anything like this, so we look into this and we agreed on an abbreviation because environmental sustainability is very long. Yeah, I remember you had trouble trying to shorten it. So tag in me, I like it. It rolls well. So thank you for that update. Our last group, tag contributor strategy, come on in. Okay, howdy. So real quickly, we're analyzing the data from the CNCF contributor survey that we held late last year. The main goal that the tag had in running the survey was to find out what common blockers are for people, trying to contribute to CNCF projects and maybe not being successful, so that we could provide advice to projects. And when we have a report on that, you all get it. We have yet another mentorship cycle. CNCF is in planning and enrolling in Google Summer Code, which means any CNCF project would be eligible to propose a project for it. And the next LFX cohort is now accepting mentee applications. There's 55 different proposals across the CNCF project for things for mentees to work on. So if anybody is connected, particularly with universities, please share out that information, which you can get from our mentorship repo. We already proposed this to the TOC, adding governance review as part of graduation. And you all said, yeah, that sounds like a good idea and immediately gave us two projects. So we're working on that. And one of the things that we'll get out of that is we're going to create a template for how the governance review should run. And in the meantime, we're working with both Cilliam and Kata on governance improvements. And we have restarted because of a new member of the TAG. We have restarted maintainers here. So again, please share this with any maintainers that you work with. We're going to have one in February 13th on managing non-code contributors for your project because we find that a lot of projects are missing out on a very good source of contributors because they don't have specific programs for non-code contributors. And we're also planning on trying to have an in-person maintainer circle in Amsterdam space permitting. But please share that first one with anybody you know and you'll see a follow-up in the millions. That is perfect. Thank you. Sounds good, Josh. I'm so happy seeing the mentoring working group launched and I hope folks are coming to help out there as well. So we can always use more. At this point, like a lot of other TAGs, the limitation of our TAG is we need more volunteers, more people involved to do more things. I always spread the word out for you, Josh. And also technically, I should be grooming my own successor because I've been TAG chair since we founded the TAG, which is a little bit longer than we really want the CNCF. It's going on the list for this year. Other questions? Are we doing like a press push for more people for the mentoring side? Or have we got a mechanism for that? Just to call out, Josh, thank you again for calling this out. Because again, as projects, even a hotel is not aware of this. So this GSOC push, so that would be useful to communicate to the projects. If we can help in any way, and you can point me to some material, we can gladly remind different projects. But it's also that Outreachee, for example, is also accepting applications. Again, maybe having a more comprehensive mentoring list may be useful. Because we all participate in Outreachee also. So one of the things we're doing is actually doing some reorganizing. The CNCF has a new beta tool called Clotributor, which lists help-wanted issues across all projects. And we're looking to incorporate that, which would give us a better and sort of continuous pipeline into projects creating mentorship opportunities, which is currently the really time-consuming and slow part of the process for all of the mentorship programs. And once we get that working, it'll become a lot easier to just participate into whatever program currently has a cycle. Yeah. Awesome. But again, I think I'd love to understand more so that we can actually get more involved. But thank you again, Josh. Josh, let's send one message out about the next cohort for the LFX, at least, to the TOC mailing list. Okay. We'll do. Okay. That's perfect. Thank you. Exactly on time. We've got a couple of projects in voting. I was hoping to be able to check in with Ricardo on being able to move over key cloak. Any other updates around projects that have not? I think Fasila had a question on the meeting chat asking about which one was this. Istio. Istio. Yeah. Projects waiting on sponsors are over on the meeting minutes doc. They are not included here. Right. That's where we currently are on the sponsor pieces. So, all right. No one's putting their hand up to one, be able to talk about like further projects in here. We will be convening on the 21st with TAG chairs and the TOC together. So, I expect like lots of fun in that one. Elita, bring your issues. Thank you. Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for your time today. See you all.