 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump! Mind pump! With your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. Hey, how many people are waiting for this interview? Dude, this was a very deep episode. I mean, we got to interview Lane Norton again. We had a great time with him the first time. Was it a year ago or so, two years ago? Yeah, last time we got to drink this time. No, we went deep, dude. He talked about his divorce, what caused the divorce. He talked about what was it, avatar nutrition a little bit. He talked about what he's doing now, the difficulties. Lots of chaos. Lane got very vulnerable, and I will commend him for his honesty. We asked him questions that were tough to answer, and he was very honest with his answers. He was open. There was nothing that was off the table. You're going to hear a side of Lane on this episode, but I don't think... You've heard anywhere else. I don't think you've heard anywhere else. I'll make that claim. Yeah, for sure. I've listened to a lot of Lane, for sure. I thought he did really well with the questions that you got. Well, I think the first time we had to get it out with the whole getting drunk and hanging out because we had to break the ice a little bit. Because everyone thought the IFYM, the anti-IFYM guys and the IFYM guy were going to go head to head on some shit. It's just like, no. World War III! Right. There was a little more nerves in the room on that meeting versus this one where we kind of all knew each other. And I think you can tell in the interview. I think we're definitely... They're definitely called any bullshit that anyone felt while they were talking. Dude, this is fire. Yeah. It's a fire interview. It was epic. It was very, very good. Good job on Lane. So, here's some of the places you can check him out. And of course, it's Lane Norton. You can go to Biolane. That's B-I-O-L-A-Y-N-E.com. He's also released a book called the Complete Contest Prep Guide. Now, we've had a chance to kind of thumb through it, but we've seen lots of people's reactions to it. People who've already read it, and apparently it's badass. People are saying it's really good. Now, knowing Lane as well as we do and all the stuff he's put or produced in the past, I can tell you this. I know Lane has done a very good job of making this as good as he possibly can. There's lots of heavy content in there. Good content, and the guys got integrity. That's one thing that we respect with him the most. So, you can get his book at BiolaneStore.com. We also did an IIFWM video with him on our YouTube channel, which you'll find on Mind Pump TV. And it should be up there coming up soon. So, stay tuned for that. But, I mean, is there anything else to say? Yeah, you can also find him on his Physique Science Radio too. So, he has a podcast. I know he's not as consistent as we are on there, but he still gets some pretty high-profile guests on there, a lot of doctors, a lot of scientists that come on there and they talk about some great topics. So, you can find his Physique Science Radio on iTunes also. That's right. And then before we get to the interview, I do want to remind those of you listeners, this month you can get free access to our private forum for enrolling in any of our maps. Bundles, of course, our most popular bundle, is the Super Bundle, which includes a year of exercise programming, several maps programs you follow in succession for an entire year, mindpumpmedia.com. And without any further ado, here we are interviewing Lane Norton. You're training for a competition right now too, yeah? Well, I actually dropped out of the Arnold. Oh, you did? Why would I? Well, because I aggravated my back in December. Dude, what's happening? You keep getting hurt. Do you think there's mobility? Maybe some mobility shit going on? Well, you know, part of it is just when you lift heavy weights long enough, shit happens. But I actually went and saw, it's a disc bulge that keeps getting aggravated. And it's actually not even that bad of a bulge. It's just when it gets flared up and it hits that nerve, it just locks you up. So I actually went and saw Stu McGill. Oh, wait, that's McGill. Back mechanic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. D-back mechanic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. D-back. So what did he see? What did he see in here? What was the deal? And it was really cool. It was me, him, and Brian Carroll. I don't know if you guys know Brian Carroll. But they just wrote a book together called The Gift of Injury. So Brian, just to give you some background, Brian has squatted over a thousand pounds. I think he was the first guy at 242 to squad a thousand. Holy shit. And then equipped. And then he went to 275. I think he squatted over a thousand pounds of competition like 50 plus times. I think he's the guy who's done it the most. He, so he got so bad that when he went, he tried all kinds of stuff. And finally, Stu was like his last hope when he went to him. And it's actually a funny story because everybody on his MRI missed this. Stu pulls up his MRI and says, do you see anything weird here? His sacrum was broken. Oh, shit. Like he had actually- Had nobody else picked this up? No. He had in-plate fractures and all of his vertebrae. And like, well, because keep in mind when they're looking at MRI, they don't even think about what to look for because they don't have context, right? He could be a 90-year-old man for all they know, right? So he had like crushed a disc, split his sacrum, herniated another disc, and then had in-plate fractures all over the place, right? And he was like, yeah, I want to compete again. And Stu's like, he's like, but why don't we just try to get you pain-free first and then let's cross that bridge and get there. And less than a year later, he's caught 1,000 pounds again. Wow. And actually what's crazy is in the book, they show his MRI like a couple years later and it looks normal. People don't realize this. They get like herniated discs and think it's like a death sentence. That's right. There's like spontaneous disc resorption. It happens, you know? Well, they call it spontaneous because they don't know- They don't know why. They think they don't know why. But I think when you change recruitment patterns, when you- Oh, that's- Listen to the sound of that. Sound of cancer. Listen to the sound of that cancer. Yeah. That's a slow death. Smoke that drink down. So that when you work on mobility and stuff, you start to see people heal in pretty amazing ways. What kind of things was McGill doing with them? So actually one of the things that McGill said is mobility, like spine mobility is not what you want to do if you're a powerlifter. If you're a powerlifter, he said, Spines do- they can do mobility well and they can do stiff and rigid well. They don't do both together well, right? So if you're a gymnast or somebody or some kind of athlete where spine mobility is really important, then yes, you want a mobile spine. He said, for a powerlifter, you want to be stiff, rigid. He said, looseness is the enemy of power. Sure. So what he did with Brian was basically like, never been your spine. Ever. What? Like, just basically get yourself used to be in a rigid position. I mean, even down to the point where, like, when I got there, somebody spilled something on the floor. When Brian went down to clean it, I mean, he went like this. I'm dropping to one knee. Oh, wow. And then he kind of like this, right? And he made sure he, like, he was braced cleaning it up, like very, very diligent. Wow. But Stu said, you know- Well, you're talking about extreme athlete. Right. Somebody used to squat a thousand pounds. Right. This isn't how you would treat the average person, I would say. Right. But Stu said, you know, one of the things you got to realize is that those discs sit inside a collagen matrix. And when a bulge happened, it's because that matrix kind of starts to break down a little bit and that disc pokes through. Okay. He said, like, think about an orange. If you wanted to squeeze a seed out of a lemon, if you wanted to squeeze a seed out of a lemon, you're going to push on the opposite side. Right. So for power lifters, they always get a disc bulge going this way. Right. So you want to prevent that spine bending. Because every time you bend that spine, you're wearing on that collagen matrix. Squeezing on the other end. Right. So, you know, he has three exercises that he's very big on for power lifters. Bird dogs done properly. And he showed me how to do them properly because I was doing them wrong. Everybody almost does. Yeah, he said, you know, if you're doing a bird dog, right, you should be breaking a sweat within a, you know, a couple reps. Bird dogs, he calls what he calls the McGill curl up, which is basically like, not a sit up and not a crunch. That's a very slow each vertebrae. Yeah. So you're, you're putting your hands under your back. You're putting one leg out and you're just kind of bracing your core, thinking about pushing here. And I'm pointing my obliques, by the way. And, and then just getting tight here and barely just bringing your head up off the ground. And then side planks is what he has people do a lot of, but there's some other ones as well. So I went there, he looked over, well, first off, he did an assessment on me. And by this time I was mostly pain free. Like I could aggravate it here and there, but I was pain free when I saw him. And I told him that he said, don't worry, I'll find it. And yeah, he put me through like about an hour of an assessment and he found it. And he's like, what did he do that made it hurt? Um, man, I, it's hard for me to remember because he put me through so many things, but like, but he had me sit up, stand down, pull on a chair. He put me in a hyper extension, flexion, all different kinds of things. And finally like after kicking my legs one or two times, I had a little twinge and he's like, yep, you got nerve dragged. He's like the first time I, he's like, it's that first time that, that nerve goes to that, that, uh, the, the canal. I could be saying this wrong. It dragged. He's like, but then, so then he did it again and I didn't feel anything. He's like, yeah, once it goes through that one time, it's fine. But yeah, he's like, you got nerve drag son. And, um, he's like, we're going to see this, this, this, this and this on the MRI and he was dead on. Like he hadn't even seen it yet and he was dead on. So. So now you've been working with him? Yeah. So he actually, um, he said overall I had a really great spine. He's like, you know, you don't have any scoliosis. You don't have any weird stuff going on. You know, he's like, oh, overall your spine is really great. And he said, I've never seen anybody in your position. If they did everything I asked him to do, who did not get back to full strength. So the other nice thing he said too is cause you know, I get all kinds of shit on the internet for the way I squat. He said, um, he's like, nah, he's like, you got as you've gotten absolutely as much out of your frame as you can. The way you squat is exactly how you should squat. Now he, one of the things I've had problems with when I get fatigued is I tend to go into a little bit of flexion and that's what's caused my problems. He said, but in terms of your forward lean and all that kind of stuff, he said, you have long legs. And he's like, you would not do based on the way your legs sit in your acetabulum, you would not do better going wider. You would lose power. Yeah. So he's like, you've done basically, you know, you managed to get out of it. He's obviously speaking to you like a pro athlete. You know what I'm saying? Like you, you're somebody who cares about power, totally different than the way he probably would communicate with the average Jane or Joe. Yeah, like if you went to him and you're like, listen, I'm done competing, but I want to be pain free. I want to be, you know, just be able to play different. It'd be a little bit different. Yeah. Yeah. Different story. I mean, you know, you can never tell somebody, hey, you're not going to injure yourself again because that's just not a reasonable thing to tell somebody shit happens. But yeah, I've been doing the stuff he's asked me to do every day. Short walks, three, 10 minute walks a day doing bird dogs and McGill curl up and side planks afterwards. And I've been pain free, like completely pain free for almost two months. How many, how many times now have you had an opportunity to compete? Is this the third or fourth time? Third time. This is the third time. Yeah. Very frustrating. I know you've been asked this question and I see this a lot on your Instagram, which by the way, man, people either seem to love you or can't stand you. It's the best way to be right? Maybe. Maybe it is. But I'll just tell you how I think. But yeah, it's true. Why do at what point do you think you'll be like, okay, I need to like stop. I need to stop doing this. Or is it because people tell you to stop that you're like, fuck, I'm going to keep going. Yeah. That's good. You know that. Yeah. I mean, I'm going to sit here and lie and say if I, I mean, people who say, oh, I don't care about what anybody else says. I kind of think people will say they're full of shit to be honest with you. Everybody cares about what somebody else says to a certain extent. I don't care enough to let it affect me so much that I changed the whole way I live my life. But yeah, I'm not going to sit here and say I don't look, you know, maybe if so, everybody just said, hey, great career man, you're awesome, great job. You did as much as you could. I probably wouldn't have that same fire to go back and prove people wrong. Yeah. Like that, you know, I live for a comeback. That's, I love that, you know, so. I know last time we met with you, we talked, we had a long interview and you talked a lot about. What, how long? Yeah, it was about four hours. It was four hours. Yeah, that's still to date the marathon. It was. And we talked about how. I could have gone longer. Yeah. That's what she said. Exactly. But you know, you talked about how growing up, you went through all this times of bullying where you were dealing with these people who were just fucking, fucking with you the whole time. Yeah. Do you think that's why maybe somebody says, don't do something now. And you're like, I'm going to do it now just because you said. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Could that be a. If you, if you don't want me to do something, just tell me I did a good job. Otherwise I'm going to fucking do it and tell you I did it. Remind you when you told me I could do it, you know, like that's, that's one of the best things in life for me. Like, you know, people could say, oh, you got somebody cycle, analyze me and say, well, that's not healthier. This and that. The way I look at it is wherever you get drive from is a good thing. You know. So I could let that. They might disagree just because you've been heard so many times. That's. Yeah. Listen, I don't know, man. It's not working out that well. That's why I went to stew because you know, if he said to me, hey, listen, you're really teetering on the edge of no return in terms of not being able to live a pain free lifestyle. I really need to. Yeah. You probably revalued. Then we're going to have a different conversation. I mean, maybe, maybe, okay. Maybe it's time to go back to body building or maybe do something else. Right. But he said, there's no reason you can't get back on the platform and and compete at a high level. So somebody tells me that if they just tell me, all it takes is time. I'm a very diligent, focused, patient person. I mean, I've done a comeback before. I can do it again. And yeah, I love proving people wrong. That's that's the most favorite thing in the world for me. Where are you? Where are you at right now in the recovery stage right now? So are you how much longer that? And then when will you start? Yeah, we'll probably start spine loading again in a few weeks is my guess. Brian is handling most of my recovery. And but he communicates with Stu. And yeah, I mean, I talked to him about possibly raw nationals in October and he said he thought that that was a good, a good goal. So I mean, I did raw nationals this past year. I got seventh in my class, but that was the first time I did it. And then I did it. I did it. I did it. And then I was the the entire month before that was just a wash of training. It was garbage. Like that was when I had some business things going on that were very stressful, personal things that were very stressful. And I did not have one productive training session the month before on nationals and was dealing with multiple injuries. You've had a like a like an avalanche of shit. Yeah, it was all came like, you know, like, like, hold on, like, like, I mean, we don't want to gloss over this because any one of these things are very stressful or somebody else. Well, well, it's just those are all like if you list like the top five most stressful things you can go through in your life. Three of them at once. You had three at the same time and all of them challenging your livelihood. You know, in fact, I know that I know you're not. We talked off air and I know there's, you know, certain you can talk about certain things and you can't talk about other things, but you're not with avatar anymore. No, we have parted ways. You have parted ways and that was a company you started if I'm not mistaken. I was a co-founder in it. Yes. Co-founder. Yeah. So is it. So that's it. No more. You're doing some other shit. You guys all friends are cool. I wish them best of luck. Okay. So that's a nice way to say that. I like that. I like that answer. So yeah, but you know what? Now it's a blessing in disguise because now I get to focus on my own stuff. You know, I think one of the big major mistakes I made in my life was started investing too much in other people. And I forgot about what I got into this industry for. Yeah. And like what my purpose was and my purpose was I wanted to help people. I wanted to put out really good content, you know, and I wanted to make a difference. And so, you know, Do you feel like you can do that more now than before? Or do you think that you weren't you weren't able to do it before with the same kind of freedom that you can now? I think that I can do it my way and I can, you know, because I was very like. Because now it's just you. Now it's just me. Like I kind of looked at it like, man, like it was really upsetting because I had this. I felt like I had this great thing that I was part of this great thing that could really help a lot of people. And I realized I don't have to have that. Like I don't need permission to put out good content. You know what I mean? Like I can still do that. And so I got back to it. And some of the best compliments I've been getting lately is people saying. Like I get complete strangers messaging me say, you seem like the lane from five years ago. Like you seem like you're back. You seem like you're back to the guy that you were, you know. But the thing is like when you're going through personal shit or business shit or it affects all your life. Like it's hard to separate. And especially me. I'm a kind of person. I wear my heart on my sleeve. You guys probably know this. I'm a very open person. And so. Oh, I mean, I mean, shockingly so. I mean, it's refreshing. I mean, you did a. I think it was on your YouTube channel where you talked about some of your personal issues with your with your divorce and what happened with that. I had an affair. And you put it on. You put it on on your page and tell me what your thought process was. And when you should. So I was really conflicted about that. Not because I didn't want to be honest about what happened. More so because I know my kids will see that one day, you know. And I worry about kids in their classes. Like if, you know, dad is more well known that other kids may use that to hurt them. Because I remember what kids would use to hurt me when I was young. But, you know, my exit actually already put it out there. And, you know, that she has a right to do that. She she went first. Yeah. She she put it out there. And she said a fair. He had an affair. Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't see that. There was a video. When did that? So how long were you married up until you got divorced? Obviously. Eight and a half years. When did that? When did the affair happen into that marriage? More recent. More recent. Yeah. So it was towards the end of it. It was. Yes. It was definitely towards the end of it. So did you get? Did you? Did she catch you? When it happened the next week I asked for a divorce because I'm not trying to act like obviously. It was eating you up. I'm definitely not an ethical warrior. You know, like I've made I made a mistake. Like no matter how unhappy you are, there's not an excuse to do that. You know, but sometimes it's not so black. You know, I five years ago, it's funny. I was a much more judgmental person because I'd look. I would look at exactly that and say, you scumbag. You know, why don't you, if you were that unhappy, why don't you just break up and then you get into it and you got kids and you've got businesses and you own a house together and all that kind of stuff. And it's just sometimes you feel trapped, you know, and but there's no, there's no excuse. Like I shouldn't, I shouldn't have been a stronger person, you know, but after it happened and I realized I didn't want to be married anymore, I asked for a divorce. So you, you're the one that told her this is what happened. I didn't tell her that it happened because, you know, maybe I should, maybe I shouldn't have, but I was afraid that she would become very combative if I did that, you know, of course. And also like, of course, it was a selfish thing. Like nobody wants to admit that they screwed up. That's just the single act when you really unpack it. There was probably much more going on for a lot longer with both of you. If you were unhappy, I'm sure there was the. Yeah, I don't want to go into the personal stuff because you know, like a lot of it was me too. You know what I mean? Like I didn't handle shit well. Yeah. So I don't want to put it all on her or make it seem like she's bad. She's not a bad person at all. I'd rather talk, I'd actually rather talk about you and what, what you've learned about yourself through that process. So, so. Two things. So first off, like, so she, once I asked for divorce, she then went back and she then discovered why. So and and yeah, that was very difficult. But what have I learned? So I've learned this. I want to, you guys only have my word for it, but I always did the right thing in my life. Like right down to like, I wouldn't even fucking litter. You know what I mean? And this was the, this was a really important thing. I fucked it up. You know what I mean? Like I didn't handle it the right way. And I have to explain it to my kids one day. You know what I mean? And that's going to be a good thing. But I've learned, I've learned this. One, I'm really motivated to live the best life I can and treat people the right way because I screwed this up. And because integrity was so important for me and still is so important for me, even though I screwed this up. And the second thing is shit compounds. Every time I've ever lied in my life or done something wrong, it has come back and bit me in the ass without fail. 100%. I believe in karma not from a spiritual standpoint, but just from a practical standpoint. Because here's the way it works. If you tell one lie, then you got to tell two more to cover that one up. And then you got to tell four more to cover those two up. And then you got to tell eight more. And it just eventually is an avalanche. That's what they call moral truth. You have objective truth which comes from, you know, science and the scientific theory and testing hypothesis and whatever. And then there's moral truth which has been with humans for thousands of years and is present in every culture and every major religion. And that is a fundamental rule that you see in all those things. And it's what separates us. It's what separates us. And talking about, look, I went through a divorce also made for 15 years. And I know just how, especially with kids, how challenging it could be. It'll break. Well, the hardest things I've ever done in my life. It'll probably the hardest thing you'll ever do in your life. It is extremely difficult to go through. And you know, it's funny. I was reading this book and I was reading about people with PTSD. It's a big issue that we have nowadays. And the psychoanalyst that was talking about it said that many times the PTSD that soldiers are getting when they come back from war is not from them witnessing horrible things in war. It's from them who feel like they're good, you know, good people. Like I'm here to serve my country. I'm a good person. And then they go out in war and then they do something that is so uncharacteristic that it shatters their identity and they cannot reconcile the two. Yeah. And so what the psychoanalyst says is he's and he's a very famous one. He says the way that I help these people is I help them understand that that person who did those horrible things in war is you also. You are all those things. Yeah. How did you reconcile that being somebody who's so identified with integrity and being also somebody who cheated? Yeah. Yeah. They call that our dark passenger, right? Um, so yeah, what I'll tell people is, you know, I think that I don't want to sit here and say everybody makes mistakes, but everybody does make mistakes. So I'm not as big as the one I made, right? Um, but I think that the difference is if you can learn from that and use that to be better, the worst thing in your life can become the best thing in your life if you use it, right? And if you use it to make you better because when we're born we're a blank slate. The only way we learn is we do something and it works or we do something and it and it blows up in our face and we say, ain't doing that again, right? So, uh, yeah, learn my lesson, you know, and, and, uh, I've been in therapy. I have a really good therapist who helped me understand a lot of things about myself too and why this actually happened, right? And, um, would you mind sharing some of the things you or because I feel like what you went through, you have a unique opportunity and I'll tell you why. I think, again, being somebody who went through a divorce, there weren't very many resources or things that could hear about, especially from a male perspective. There just isn't. We tend to be the, um, many times we tend to be the bad guy. Yeah. Um, and there's two sides to most stories. Okay. And, um, I feel like you're in a unique opportunity to help other people in who might be in a situation like yours and there's a lot more than you think. I talked to, when I tell people, when I tell guys I was, you know, I was divorced after 15 years, all of a sudden they feel like they can tell me now and I hear this shit. I'm like, wow, this is way more common. I've gotten so many messages from men and women, actually, like who have been on both sides of it. There's been a few that have been disrespectful, but for the most part, people said, you know, even like women who had had that happened to them said, I just wish my husband could have admitted it or just wish he would have taken responsibility for it. Actually, kids too of parents who had affairs have said that. Um, I've had some people go on my Instagram and call me a scumbag and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, that's. Do you think you would have been one of those people? No, I wouldn't. You would have thought it. I might have thought it, but I don't usually go out of my way to get nasty about it. Because at the end of the day, I would still go, you know what? I didn't live with them. I don't know what the deal was. So that's true. Like, I think there's a few no-go's, you know? Yeah. You beat your partner. I think that's a no-go. You know what I mean? Yeah, they're obvious, really obvious. Yeah. Like that, I think that that's a pretty really nasty, shitty thing to do. Kill people. That's a no-go, you know? Yeah. So. Well, there's more than one way to leave a relationship. That's what I was alluding to, that a lot of times, that people don't talk about that. I mean, you could emotionally cheat on somebody, too. It doesn't always have to be a physical effort. Well, that's how it started, yeah. In fact, when men and women, I obviously dig deep into all this shit after going through mine, when men and women are questioned on, there's actually one question that the last men and women, and generally, you can predict if a woman is answering this question, or if a man is answering the question. The question is, would you rather your partner fall in love with someone but not have physical sex or contact with them, or would you rather that they don't fall in love with them but they just have meaning with sex? Men would rather their wives or girlfriends fall in love and not have sex, and men are the opposite. Men would rather their wives and girlfriends fall in love but not have sex. So it's the opposite for each gender, and there's all kinds of reasoning behind that and all that kind of stuff. So there's definitely more than one way, though, to leave a relationship. I wanted to ask you, going through these therapy sessions, because I know me, the two years post divorce, ooh, there's a lot of shit I learned about myself. You know, it's so funny, everybody said it takes two years until you're back to normal. You know what I mean? And this really is about two years since all this shit started. Starting to feel like you're coming out of the clouds. Yeah, I started to feel like I'm getting back to normal. Bro, I was walking around like I was in cement. You know, I was functioning at 30%. Yeah. And luckily, I have these gentlemen right here, I was working with that kind of held me up. But what did you learn about yourself going through to therapy? Like what are some of the what are some of the things you learned through this whole process? That, um, well, one, you talk about PTSD, my therapist said you have, there's an actual, there's another term for it when it comes to bullying, but she's like, you basically have PTSD from bullying, you know. Oh, I believe that. And, uh... Oh, I saw when we first talked about it. And no, just like, I'm not trying to put on the same levels, our military members or anything like that. Like I don't want to sound disrespectful. You know, I think it's called AP, I can't remember the acronym for it. There's a specific one for bullying. Okay. And one of the, one of the reasons was is one of my triggers is, um, one, I have a really difficult time, um, speaking my mind to, uh, uh, my relationship partner. Like I have a very, I have a hard time, especially with like strong women, I have a really hard time speaking up and like standing up for myself. I have a really hard time with that. It's ironic, I feel like. Yeah. Because you have no problem standing up to anybody and everybody that comes after you. Yeah. It's a guy, no problem. It's a girl. Like I'll literally like, um, like, I'm sure I'll get messages making fun of me, but I'll literally like get like sweaty and have like jitters if I have to say something. Yeah. Get really nervous, you know. Did you have a good relationship with your mom? Does it come from that or was it just from, uh... I have a good relationship with mom. Uh, I have a great strong willed and, um, you know, uh, so that was probably part of it. Yeah. You know, um, but I hope mom doesn't listen to this. I love mom. Like, mom. Your mom listens to my mom. She loves the mind pump. Can we make a T-shirt? Yeah. You mean mom loves my mom. Your mom, my mom is a wonderful... Your mom listens to mind pump. But in all seriousness, like I, my mom is a wonderful person, but like, um, I don't respond to criticism well because I, it's, it's... You learned this through therapy? That's me. Well, especially like, um, like I would get defensive, you know, and it's, it's, uh, it's a protection mechanism, you know, from being younger. And that's like, um, you know, going through that, we kind of went through counseling as we went through divorce. And it was like, you know, looking back, you know, and I don't want to say too much about it, but, um, yeah, I would at times like, like trying to talk to her where I just like, completely freeze up. And I like, couldn't talk, you know, uh, and my therapist like, why, why, you need to be able to say something. And I'm like, uh, bathroom. Uh, so, um, yeah, I learned these things about myself and I'm working on that, you know, um, working on, you know, being able to, to say what I need to say in a relationship, those sorts of things. Um, Cause you're, now you're in a pretty committed relationship. You guys, both you and now seem like you're very. Yeah. And she, she's actually like a part of the reason we work well is, um, she frames things very well, Holly frames things very well, like, um, for example, um, and I'm not trying to disparage my last relationship. We were young. We got married. We just didn't have a lot of tools. Man, when you develop a pattern with somebody, it's hard to break. It's very hard to break. Yeah. Even if you have the tools after that, it's like when you see your sibling after you haven't seen them for five years and you're 12 years old again and now you're fighting over it. So she usually frames things not as criticism, but as like suggestions. She's like, it's not, why did you do it this way? It's, well, have you considered this? You know, and it's funny how just like that framing things can be difficult, but, or it can make things better. But I mean, you know, she's been with me, like going through all the, all a lot of this, like the most stressful stuff. And like it's been stressful for both of us because, you know, she's from fucking Lane. So she's, she's from from Australia. So, you know, she moved her whole life over here. You know, that's, that's very stressful. And then, you know, like I was with a guy going through a lot of shit too. I'd be scared to live with you. Well, yeah, you probably will trust me. You're definitely moving up. You know, you're, you're leveling up on that one. I mean, fuck, dude. Well, you should be putting it down really well or something. God, Holly is such a reserved person. If she hears, if she hears you say that, her face will be the color of that shirt right there. No, no disrespect. Yeah. She seems like, you guys are better. She's awesome. So, and you guys got together shortly after the divorce, right? No, I was still going through. You're still going through. So, well, you, you openly admitted that you openly said that she was the one, right? Didn't you say that? Yeah, I mean, we've been two together. Right, right. I've seen you communicate that. You know, do you because, you know, first off, I want to commend you on being as honest as you are right now. That's a very difficult thing to do. And I really appreciate it. I think a lot of people are going to learn a lot about you and a lot about maybe their own situations from this. And, you know, saying what you're saying about your difficulty speaking to strong women and how that would make you freeze up and how that's, you know, probably the result of, you know, the past bullying and stuff like that. Do you fear maybe being manipulated by women? Do you feel like, oh, shit, now I'm in this vulnerable position. I'm with this woman. I've really in love with her. Is that something you have to work through? Like, am I going to be manipulated? Am I going to, is this going to be a problem? Um, it definitely could be a problem. I have been manipulated by people, not specifically women, but just in general, you know, because I tend to be a woman, and it bites me in the ass quite a bit. Um, again, I don't want to get into specifics, but let me just say that if she was trying to manipulate me, it would already happen because nobody would want to have been around for the last six months of what I went through. So, um, yeah, I know like she, and she's like a go-getter herself. Like she owns her own business. She, you know, she puts it down. She's very motivated. Like we have the same world. You know, she wants to be able to put good information out to people. You know, um, yeah, it's just, you know, sometimes you just click with somebody. You know what I mean? How much harder would it have been going through this if you hadn't, if you didn't have someone like her there next to you? Oh God. Yeah. Yeah. It would have been very difficult, very difficult, very, very difficult. Yeah. So it was, you know, they, I'm going to be grateful of all the stuff that happened just because, man, now it's like, now once you're kind of on the other side of it, you can go, shit, if I can get through that, a lot of other stuff I can get through. You know what I mean? Like, it's kind of, I talked about this, it's kind of like building up confidence in yourself. You know what I mean? Like, um, you, it's like when you, like, when I first started lifting weights, got a little bit bigger, you know, then did a bodybuilding show, won that. Then I did well in school, did well in college, got into a good PhD program, won my pro-card. Like, each one of those is a big challenge. Big challenge. It's just kind of building, building, building, building and it, because I had low confidence when I was a kid, but it was building that confidence. And so even when I was going through a lot of this stuff, you know, these business problems, personal problems, friends bailing on me, all this kind of stuff. Um, just stabbed me in the back. You want to know, you want to, you want to figure out real quick who you're a good friend. Oh yeah, that happened real fast. Yeah. And you'll know, you'll know right away who the real people are. Blessing, blessing. Have you got to a point where you feel like a lot of this shit, you've attracted yourself? 100%. So this all started because I didn't deal with shit. Right. Because I just kept putting off. It'll be okay. It'll be okay. It'll be okay. And I didn't clean up my own messes. You know what I mean? Because that, and again, this is a subject that I've gotten into. When you're in this relationship, this marriage, putting things off, those are almost like little lies in the sense that you're not being your true self. You're lying to yourself. And, and that, that's one of those things like when you break, when you start to break one piece of your, of your foundation to who you are, it becomes easier to break another piece. It becomes easier then to, for it to shatter. So it's almost like you led yourself down a path of. That is a hundred percent correct. Like regardless of stuff that happened and people who may or may not have betrayed me or people who did bad shit to me, I allowed it to happen because I didn't clean up my own shit. You know what I mean? Like I just, I, situations that weren't where they were supposed to be, I kept saying it'll get better. Nothing's gonna get better without energy, without putting stuff into it. You know what I mean? And in business saying, oh, this will, this will take, no, it's not going to take care of itself, you know. And then when it got to the point where, you know, I was in a bad place and I started like lying about things and all that kind of stuff. Like they just created this mess. Yes. Some people took advantage of me. Some people stabbed me in the back, but I, the situation I created allowed that stuff to happen and allowed it to harm me. You know what I mean? If I'd been in a stronger position, it wouldn't be able to happen. Since you've had this situation that's kind of triggered that where you caught it, where you're like, oh fuck. I'm gonna stop this before. Yeah. Have you had one yet? Like now that you're aware of this. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like things like this is a landmine. Don't step on it. You know, yeah. A hundred percent, a hundred percent, you know, like again, you know, hopefully like two quotes that I really like, I forget where the first one's from, but it's like something is painful to remind you not to do that shit again. So I can tell you, I am never doing that shit again. Like I had a guy who messaged me. Um, I had a guy. Are you sexting while you're talking to me right now? No, no. Are you fucking sexting on your phone while you're talking to me? Definitely not. Because I'm being nice right now. Definitely not. I'm gonna go deep on the personal shit if you want to. No, I was, my daughter's had, my daughter's had a little bit of a temperature and I was, I was, she's at daycare and I wanted to make sure that she wasn't, she wasn't. Yeah. No, it's okay. Everybody makes mistakes. So, you know, stuff is, cause I had a guy messaged me and he's like, Hey man, I'm almost in the same position you are. Like, you know, I'm in love with this girl but I'm married, but I got to, I'm like, don't do it dude. Get out. If you're, if you are, if you can't make it work where you're at, then get out and don't do the affair. I'm telling you, you might think like, it will bite you in the affair. Like, you got, you have a very, even if you don't get caught, it poisons you. It poisons you. It poisons you. I still, every single day, I get mad at myself every day and feel guilty. And, but I can either, I could, like I had people giving me shit about the Valentine's Day post about Holly. And I said to some people, listen, I get, like, I understand. Wait, which post? Oh, I just wrote one nice about her. Do you, I've said, it was my fault. I'm, I learned, I'm going to learn from it. I'm going to not make these mistakes again. It was my fault. So what do you, what do you want from me now? You know what it is. Do you, do you want me, do you want me to, like lay on hot coals? Do you want me to be miserable the rest of my life? Should I not be able to be with somebody who I love? Yeah. Like, it's because people, what it is is that you're very straightforward and you're, you're, you're clear and people want to see pain. And you're wrong. You're like, listen, I'm sorry, but it's not enough for them because they want to like feel like, but I don't feel like you're sorry. Like, oh, I really am. Let's talk about it. Like, there was, go ahead. There was a lot of pain. It's just, you know, I'm not, what am I going to do? Sit there and whine about the fact that I had an affair. Like, nobody going to feel sorry for me. You know what I mean? So there's no point. It's easy for us to look at all the shit and they go, oh, let's not repeat that again. But really it's, it's rooted in. So, so things are painful to remind us not to do that shit again. And then, you know what Eric Thomas says is when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of change, that's when we change, you know, so. There's another quote that has something to do with that. The pain of remaining a bud became too strong when it bloomed or something like that. Yeah. Similar type of thing. But, so yeah, but you know what, all that shit, you know, he became my video guy right as my life was blowing up. And I tried to tell him, he moved down for me. And I'm like, bro, my life's a shit show. You know, he's like, it hasn't always been this way. There's a lot of good video content. Yeah. I'm sure he was excited about all this. Yeah. He's like, I got the Ricky Lake of Fitness. Dude, this could be a fucking drama everywhere. I mean, talk about, I want to hear about, I don't even know. You are the father. Oh my God. I want to hear about though, I want to, the, because this is the part that a lot of people don't talk about is the, how the stress of that affects you physically. Oh my God. Mentally. Like your sleep, you're like, let's, let's talk about that for a second. Like how, how was all that? How, how did you, how did you physically feel? Like how was your sleep? Was your, I'd sleep. Okay. Just because I was fucking exhausted by the end of every day, because I was just emotionally drained every single day, the feeling of my day. That I was fucking exhausted during the whole hour of rest, that I'd just been stuck and tired and now that I just got all the rest in the night, yeah. Now that I've gotten all the rest I needed, I just feel, it's been like one day, I push the tires away and go faster. But like I said, I couldn't even think of doing it why, but earlier on when I But, um, they had misloaded the bar, like I called for 650 and they actually put an extra five on one side and I didn't get a relift, but yeah, listen, you know, shit happens. Right. People make mistakes. Like the guy who misloaded it actually came up and apologized and he felt really bad. I was like, again, now having gone through that, like this is a microcosm, right? It's like, Hey man, I don't think you tried to purposely like mess me up. Right. He's sitting there loading thousands of times over the course of a week. Like, shit happens. Wow. So just a lot of shit happens to you though. Fuck. So, but like I, um, and then I had strained my pack like a week out. So I had to take a token bench and I was like, you know what? I kind of, so I refocused myself. And I said, okay, now would be an excuse to mentally check out. So I was like, let's fucking get a deadlift PR. I had no week out from the meat. I, you were there. I missed 585 on a deadlift, didn't I? Yeah. I missed 585 on a deadlift. I pulled 716 on my last pull. Oh, wow. I just, I had, I just, I funneled everything I had. I just, all the rage, passion, love, hate, everything I had. And I just put it in that one lift. I'm like, I'm fucking not missing this lift. I'm going to go home happy. I saw that lift. That was a good lift for you. You see, you dropped your knees. Yeah, a lot of emotion with that, you know, I went backstage and Holly goes, where the fuck did that come from? So I don't know, you know, but it's like, you know, I kind of look at that as I try to use that stuff as like, how can I re-challenge myself, refocus my stuff? Because, you know, people out there, yeah, you got your plan A and whatever, but plan A sometimes going to fuck up, you know? So you better be able to take that and go, OK, how can I refocus myself to something else? Right. So the best thing that's come out of this shit is, you know, we're talking desperation makes for great motivation. Right. So when all these business things went down, these personal things went down, I was having a lot of monetary problems as well, because everything is connected. Yeah. Right. And so my friend Peter Baker, I've known him for six, seven years, and he does like a lot of fitness writing. He's like, who thought about writing a book? At this point, I'm like, fuck it, let's do it. You know, we wrote, we started a book on contest prep. We've wrote it in eight weeks. Two hundred and sixty two, two hundred and sixty four pages. I think it is wrote in eight weeks just to finish. Yeah, you seem to you seem to run crushing. You seem to run on one speed, like, you know, fast forward turbo all the time, which which, you know, this is a quote that, you know, we say all the time on mine pump, which is your greatest strength could be your greatest weakness. Oh, yeah. Do you have another speed? Like, do you ever think to yourself, maybe I need to like learn how to you get the get the parasympathetic to kick in to chill to like. Yeah. So that's actually something that Holly's been really good at is getting me to be like, you know, take walks on the beach. There's more there's more to life than, like, you know, we want to do something really great. But if you're dead at 40, because you're just burning yourself into the ground, you know, and also, like, oh, I being objective with yourself and trying to make qualitative statements, but I was never a bad dad, but I would always be distracted. You know, I was on my phone. I was, you know, I'd always. OK, what do I have with business? What I have a business? What I have a business? Why'd you choose those words? What's that that you're not a bad dad? Why would you even say that? Well, because I should have done a lot better when my when my kids when Robert was young. Is that your own is that your own guilt that you put on yourself? Or is that other people telling you just just? There were reasons I was distracted one, you know, being unhappy and what not. And, you know, being very focused on what I wanted to do with my life and my business and whatnot. And, you know, like, all these actually been very good at being able to say. When we're working, we're working. When we have if we have the kids, we're with the kids, you know, that sort of stuff, which I was never very good at. And I'm still I still have my moments like I still pick up my phone and kind of, but I've gotten much better about being able to say, you can go away for a little while. There's nothing that's going to happen in the next 30 minutes that's going to change my life. So you better dad now than you were before. Do you think I think so? My friends have commented on it. I experienced that. That's actually a common thing. Many times is after doing something like that, you reevaluate everything and start to try to be a lot better. I think my relationship with my kids is a lot better. I think so, too. I want I want to hear you explain something that I just can't wrap my brain all the way around. And you're a science guy, you're a great guy to ask this. And you kind of made a statement kind of glazing over it, which was when you did this deadlift, you you pulled all this energy for this anger, this sad, all this stuff all into the end. You had this amazing lift. I don't know what the fuck is that? I don't know. It's hard to describe. Do you believe maybe that like our thoughts and all these things like that could actually. Hell, yeah. I mean, like I'm not going to deadlift 800 pounds just because I will it to happen. You know what I mean? But within a certain to get the absolute most out of your performance, you've got to be able to pull that. You know what I mean? Same thing like I feel like when you when you when you have I put up a post the other day, I said, you know, champion. I think it's something like champions or winners find a way to find gas in the tank that's empty. You know what I mean? Like just can you reach down for that? Do you have that other gear? You know what I mean? And a lot of I don't want to call myself elite because people give me shit about it. But a lot of elite athletes will talk about that. You know, like Jordan, like he would say, you know, when it was crunch time, they'd like he'd have these amazing performances and people would be like, how did you like and he would even be like, I don't know, you know, he's like the the gold just look big. You know what I mean? It's just that hyper focus, you know what I mean? And you but you can't have that gear all the time because otherwise, you know, there's a reason why those limiters are there. You know, you're you're we all have these like these these limiters on our bodies to prevent us from hurting ourselves. But if your mind and your your your mind believes that it is a matter of life or death, then at that point it becomes, you know, the risk is OK now because this is life or death. You're trying to escape the teeth of a lion or whatever. So would you say at that moment when you did that lift that you literally felt like? Yes, life or death. Yeah, like I like I can get my hair on the back of my neck to stand up, you know, before I go for a big lift like that. Yeah, but I can't do it every time, you know, like I'll be pretty amped up. But to get to that like literally 100 percent completely focused, you've got as much adrenaline running through your system as you possibly can, you know, like that's and to be under control, too, that's the hard part, right, to be able to do that, but still execute your technique and be under control. That's what's really hard. Have you fucked with meditation at all yet? Not as much as I probably should, because I believe that's learning to control that right there. Yeah, a lot of that is is learning to figure that when when to release that and when to calm yourself when you need to be calm. Because a lot of times our bodies go into this fight or fight situation when it's probably not always optimal anymore. We're not always being chased by lions like Sal. So a lot of times it's just some bullshit stress that somebody else has put on you and you don't want to go into that. You know, and you need to be able to calm. And then there's times when you need to call upon it and rip fucking seven hundred seven pounds off. Well, and that's a great point. Like that's part of the reason we're not probably not living as long, right, because like we get that adrenaline dump, that fight or flight response, but it's because we're late for something or, you know, your kids throwing up or and that shit didn't exist. You know, well, what happens with a lot of people is we say we don't like it, but the reality is, and I can hear this in your voice. You fucking love it. Oh, I love I love that feeling. Not not what I'm stressed out, but like the controlled stress that like I tell people, like. Well, that shit feels good. Catecholamines, cortisol, it makes you feel nothing better than that. Right. Well, there was. Do you guys ever watch The Ultimate Fighter? Yeah. So do you remember the season of Sarah versus Hughes? Do you remember? It was like season five back in the day. Yeah. So war machine. Now he's fucking weirdo. But there was a great line in this. I don't know if you ever caught it from Matt Sarah and like John Copenhaver is like getting sick before his fight, like got a five gallon bucket, like throwing up and he's like, man, I can't, I can't do this. No, I can't, I can't. And Matt Sarah is like, dude, what are you talking about? That is the feeling of being alive. You care about something that much that's making you physically ill. He's like, most people never get that. Like you should be grateful for that. And that totally changed my mind about how I approach competition when I'm nervous or anything like that. But I'm like, when I start getting those nerves for competition, I get excited, like I'm anxious, but I'm fucking excited because I know that that's part of what is going to make me do well. You know what I mean? Like it's a good thing. I perceive it as a good thing and people, you know, the same thing. They'll talk to elite athletes and elite athletes. Everybody gets nervous before competition, but it's how you perceive it that makes the difference. You know where they have a hard time, though, is separating this addiction that we have and a lot of athletes have for that rush that we're talking about, how to separate that from life. And what ends up happening is you seek out things, you self-sabotage and you don't realize it because subconsciously. You like that feeling. You like that fucking feeling. You like putting yourself in a corner. You like being the underdog. You like challenge. He's always just psychoanalyzed me right to the bone. Yeah. I mean, Paul said it. My one of my good friends, Paul Ramila, he said, you do best when you're the underdog, when you're when you're when people don't think you can do it when you're back against the wall, that's when you're at your best. He's like, so you. But I mean, like people give Jordan a hard time, right? Because he would like take anything you put. The best thing you could have done with Jordan is just don't say anything. Don't even give him a compliment. Just don't say anything. Because anything you said, he was going to turn that around and somehow use it as you're the enemy and you're disrespecting him. Well, I put a Jordan quote up yesterday. I'm a huge Jordan fan. But I'll tell you that that the things that I quote or I think or I love about him is the athletic side of him. But that guy had a pretty fucked up personal life himself. He's got a lot of drama and shit that nobody talks about. We celebrate what he did on the court because he's arguably the greatest of all time, revolutionized the game. But I bet you and you were in his shoes. Right. That's right. I'm a big fan for sure. But I bet if we were to psychoanalyze him and sit him down, I bet you that motherfuckers got a lot of regret in his life and probably isn't the best father and probably has a lot of shit. So, you know, sometimes when we attach ourselves to these these professional athletes and I'm learning this even more now that we're in this podcasting world because we get the privilege to travel and meet a lot of really brilliant minds and talented, smart people. And the more I see this, the exceptional people, the more I see the dysfunction too. Because it takes that to be so acceptable. You got to be kind of crazy a little bit to be so great at this, but you always end up, there's always a cause and effect. You know, you're super, super great at this sport because you've dedicated your whole life to, well, what's the sacrifice when you dedicate your whole life to this craft? Well, you're probably not going to be the best father. You're probably not going to be the best husband. You're probably not going to be the, and so at one, yeah, it's fucking really tough. So what I think is I think you have, when you have the ability to tap into something that can give you that laser focus, that can give you success. You've tapped into a power. I think that all people have, we just don't all know how to harness it or how to touch upon it. The problem is falling in love with that feeling and then that feeling being used like a drug where it's addicting and then you place yourself in situations that are not good for you, but because they elicit that feeling now, you're in them all the time. And so you see this all the time with, like Adam said, these very successful individuals who have some fucked up other shit and it's literally because they can't separate the two. I'll give you an example of that. Like, you know, like I thought about when I enter my back in, I'm like, man, what is this? Is it like, like where's my identity now? Fortunately, I have other things in my life. Like I'm also known as a scientist or a writer or content. I have other things I can fall back on, but like, you know, for some people, like Brian, Brian Carroll in the book, he talks about like, he walked out of a doctor's office after like the guy just basically blew him off and was like, yeah, we can do surgery, but you're never going to be able to lift heavy again regardless. And Brian's like, I had my Glock 23 in my glove box and I was seriously thinking about ending my life. You know, he talks about this in the book and it's because like you said, like that's you love that high. That is your identity. And if you can't get it, like some people are like, this isn't true, but what's the point, right? But that's like, I heard a quote one time and I forget who said it, but it was like invent yourself, then reinvent yourself, right? So that's like part of it. So who are you now? You've been reinvented. Yeah. I think I'm going back to more of what I was five, six years ago. Don't say that, bro. Don't say that. Abraham thinks I have no respect for a man that's no wiser today than he was yesterday. Well, well, with more knowledge. So, but I really liked who I was back then. Like it was really, you know, I was focused on the right things. So I think I'm going back to that. Being involved with the people I love, working really hard, knowing the limits of that and just being involved in positive shit. You know what I mean? Like contributing, like that's what I want to do. I'm not going to sit here and say I don't like money. Everybody likes money, but I like money more so be, I mean, I didn't drive it today, but I still got my grad school car, you know? I still drive by 2003 Osmond Alaro. Like I look at money as something, I don't dog anybody who likes nice stuff. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is I look at money, is that gives me a look at me like that, bro. You look over at my jays and shit over there. I see you, bro. I see you, bro. Well, money has no... It gives you the opportunity to do cool shit is the way I look at it. But it's worth nothing if your soul feels corrupted. That's right. You know, and we know that, we know that. There's a, I could name off, you know, I don't know how many celebrities who killed themselves and they had all the money in the world, you know? I mean, you know, there's a saying like, they say money doesn't buy happiness, but I don't see this motherfucker frowning and it's like a guy in a 50 foot yacht with a bunch of beautiful women on it, you know? But I know what you're saying. Like, but for me, like, if I have more money, it gives me more freedom to be creative and take risks and do stuff that's cool, you know what I mean? Which is what I really like, you know? So at the end of the day, like, you know, I have very few hobbies. I love what I do. You know, I like to shoot guns. I like to go fishing. I like to spend time with my girlfriend and friends, you know, pretty much the same shit that everybody else does, minus the guns and the fishing, because everybody's into that. But I'm with libertarians. I'm pretty sure that we're all, although you guys live in the People's Republic of California. I love as long, I love that you love things that you can do them and you should be able to. That's what I love more than anything. And I think that should be for everybody, but you know, you've got this relationship that you're in now that you've referred to several times and it's obvious that you, this is a place you feel like you're in a good space with this individual and you have your, do you have your kids half time now? Are you, are you? Yeah, I get, I have part custody. Part custody. And so I'm assuming when you have the kids around, you have, you know, your girls around at the same time. So you have Holly with the kids and how does that working out for you? Yeah, well, that could be, that could be, I'm going through that too. That could be a, what's the word? Well, the fortunate thing is they're real young. So, you know, they don't, I don't want to say the wrong thing here. Are they younger than five? Yeah, so, you know, it's, we've done a lot of work on, okay, how do we do this? You know, so it's, you know, Holly is just somebody who loves and cares for the kids and she's not mom. She's not intended to replace mom in any way, shape or form. She's just a caretaker who really loves the kids. And, you know, it was, it was... And she's accepted that role. She said, hey, I want to be in their lives as well. Yeah, yeah. Well, we, you know... That's special. It's hard to, like it's a fair, it's an adjustment period for anybody on all ends. The kids, me, her, you know. But yeah, they get along great, you know. Does she want kids of her own? I know you guys are, I mean, I'm just maybe too early to ask, but you know. God damn. Yeah. You didn't know you were going to get a therapy session today when he was talking to mom. He's like, I thought we were going to argue about IR4M. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. I thought this was a macro talk. We'll get that too. We'll talk about your favorites. Yeah, we haven't gotten that far. We'll cross that bridge when we get there. Oh yeah. We haven't gotten that far. Well, no, these are just the challenges that you go through when you're in a relationship after having, I mean, I've gone, I mean, these are things that we talk about. I talk about a microphone all the time. Speaking of macro talk and stuff like that, I feel like your posts, some of your posts lately, I thought, did I see a performance of Diet Coke thing and did I see some shit like that? I talk about the microbiome. Yeah, did I see some bad? I feel like Holly's influencing you in another way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's going on? I feel like Holly might be a real mind publicist, right? I don't know. Well, you know. Let's talk about that. So, well, now, one thing, there was actually a... Oh, OK. Hang on, you don't even know what we're talking about. I'm just coming right out the cuff. I'm just watching your brain turn right now. You got to think, bro. At criticism, you just activated my PTSD. Now, I got to defend myself. Oh, oh, oh. So, there was a study that came out recently where they actually looked at flexible dieting versus just straight meal plan. They actually found... Both groups actually had some deficiencies, which actually, by the way, it's really hard to eat and not have some kind of, not like, frank deficiency, but like a small deficiency of micronutrients. It's actually very... Which ones were the more common ones? Which nutrient deficiencies did they find? Iron is one that's pretty common. Vitamin D, pretty common. D is a big one, yeah. You know, especially even when people are eating enough if they live in cold weather, where they're inside a lot. Was it vitamin K? Magnesium? Sometimes, yeah. So anyways, but it found that, you know, the actual flexible dieting group was a little bit better for micronutrient distribution because we're just eating a set meal plan. They have more variety. More variety. Yeah, so what I will qualify things with is I will say, when I say that, you know, I'm a fan of flexible dieting and people attract their macros, I'm not saying this other stuff isn't important either. I'm just saying that your total daily calorie intake and macronutrient intake is the most important thing. That doesn't mean that everything else is unimportant, right? So what I'm saying is this is our first tier. Let's start here, making sure your calories are correct. Then your macros. Then let's start worrying about some of the other stuff, right? So we tear it. And so, yeah, of course, micronutrients are important. I've just never seen, like, as far as the gut microbiome goes. Yeah, what do you think about all that? Because the science on that's fucking compelling, right? Well, it's coming out and it's pretty awesome. It's getting there. So what I would say is we know certain things influence the gut microbiome certain ways. What we don't have a great understanding of yet is, okay, it changed gut flora. Is that a bad thing? Is it a good thing? Is it net neutral? That's some of the things that have more to be elucidated. And I think we'll probably get those answers in the next five to 10 years. Actually, one of the people I did my PhD in the same lab, she was there when I was at Suzanne Defkota. She actually works on the gut microbiome now. And, yeah, she, like, a study published in Nature and she's a professor at UC Berkeley. I think she's badass. So, yeah, I think that that's good. She was actually one of the first that showed that Splendid changed the gut microbiome. Yeah, so I know one of the things you talk about with flexible dieting is how, from a psychological standpoint, it can be easier for people because obviously, if you're following a meal plan where it's the same fucking rotation every single day, that can not only be monotonous, but it can, I mean, psychologically speaking, it could be much more difficult for someone versus having a target and being able to rotate food so long as they hit the target. So that's that psychological piece that you talk about a lot and you say that's real important. Well, and I say, let's just, let's keep in mind like what we're talking with. Like, for most people, they could get 80, 90% of the health benefits if they just found a way to eat fucking less. You know what I mean? Like, am I gonna sit here and say like, you should eat Pop Tarts and Skittles and shit? No, no, no, no. For most people, telling them to eat more vegetables, more fruits and vegetables, less starches, you know, limiting fat, well, not saturated fat I think, but, you know, limiting some fat, like that's fine advice. The problem is, is then when you take that too far and this is what fucking everybody in nutrition does, right? Cause you look like the concept of paleo, it's fine, eat more fruits and vegetables, eat less carbohydrates, eat more whole foods, eat more meat, that's fine. If you did that, you'd probably end up being a healthier person. It's when you take to the point of, oh, well, paleo didn't eat beans and they don't eat dairy and all that kind of shit, you know? And then it's like, okay. Yeah, it's dogma, exactly. That's why we attack them all. Right. We have no one favorite. We talk shit about all of them for that exact reason. It's the dogma aspect of it. I mean, here's the thing. Like you talk about the psychological aspect of the benefits of maybe IIF lamb versus a, you know, eat the same thing every day type of thing, which was so prevalent in bodybuilding in particular. Yeah. How do you feel about, and I know this is a loose term, but I think you know what I'm talking about when I refer to food this way, how do you feel about highly processed food than in the diet from a psychological standpoint? Cause they are engineered to be highly palatable in ways that you don't- Oh yeah. I'm not saying that it's not highly palatable and make you want to eat more of it. Now I stopped short of saying addictive because I think that that's a- Fine. Too strong of a term. Sure. But yeah, I mean, shit. People are like, oh, sugar's addictive because it activates this. Well, then you could say anything that you like is addictive. You know what I mean? But you can, I think you can say that. I know, I mean, I had a friend that was, yeah. Maybe, so I think it's more about the personality of the person that disposes them to being addicted, right? So for some people, I mean, for some people I said, like Holly's a great example. She does not do moderation. I literally have a lock box in my house with the treats in it. Well, I can go once a day and get myself some Reese's Cup or whatever I want, you know? She can't moderate. We could be receipt it like, we're actually gonna do a funny video about this. But yeah, like I have to keep the lock box locks because she doesn't have that with that. I can't either. If it's in my house, I'll eat it for sure. And I attribute that though to the way I ate as a kid for, so I mean, we could have cereal in the middle of the day. We could have candy bars, ice cream for dinner for fucking 20 years, man. So for some people like, you know, I'm not a, I'm a pragmatist before all things. So for some people, if you know yourself and you can't do that and fine, I encourage people to try and, you know, deal with the issues that would cause them to maybe not be able to moderate that so that maybe they can, you know, be able to, it's really hard to just cut foods out of your life for the most part, because you're gonna be exposed to it at some point. And so at that point, you kind of gotta, okay, be able to deal with it in a certain way. But if you know this about yourself, then okay, you know. Well, I mean, so, you know, a great book that I read, Wired to Eat, and I'm not sure if you're familiar with Rob Wolf, very interesting individual, but he makes some very good points in the book and he talks about, and bear with me now, he talks about- Here it comes. The ease of access to pornography. And he talks about it because he's using it as an analogy for what's happened with food. And he says, you know, we have pornography on the internet now. It's extremely accessible. Wait, there's porn on the internet? That's, I thought that's why they invented the internet. Hang on, I'll be back in two hours. A few minutes. So, Hey now. Hey. This is, but it's extremely accessible and the, you know, obviously the male brain in particular is stimulated by novelty. And so you've got these kids looking at picture after picture after picture. And you know, when we were kids, pornography was hard to come by. I mean, you had a magazine, you could probably- Work for that shit, didn't it? Exactly. It goes still from dad, right? But what's happened now is that the, when you look at erectile dysfunction among men, the age group where you're seeing the fastest rise, which is scary and exceptional, isn't men who are in their 20s, which didn't even exist before. And it's because they've literally wired their brain. Desensitized it. Desensitized. Doesn't process or highly processed food kind of do that a little bit? I mean, I know I can speak anecdotally and say I have completely experienced that. How do you feel about that with that? Because we are, we are eating engineered foods that. Just, you don't, you don't get that kind of flavor. I mean, look, if you stop drinking monster drinks today, I bet you, if you stop drinking them for two months and then you taste it again, it would taste so much sweeter than it does now. That's true. That is 100% true. Now I don't know if it's so much a brain thing, but the, the palate is very adaptable. For example, if you take people who, like Indian people who eat a lot of spice and you have to meet American food, they can't even taste it. Bland. Because it's, there's juice to so much spice and flavor. If you take somebody who's like a really high salt diet and you have to meet a low salt diet, they can't taste it, you know? So same thing. If somebody's used to eating a lot of sugary stuff, they have a hard time tasting stuff that's less. So yes, absolutely. Like you can, you can change the palate. The good thing is you can change it back too, you know? But yeah, it's really interesting about all that stuff. You know, I try not to be too dogmatic on any one thing. I guess, I guess where I try to make the distinction is, you know, again, my, my problem is with people taking it too far, you know, and people saying, well, you know, insulin, insulin is the cause of obesity and all this guy. I'm like, well, if that was true, then we would have these studies where calories are controlled and people eat more carbs or more sugar and they lose less weight. And that's not what happens. Now I'm not saying that it's a good idea to eat a lot of sugar when you diet. You'd be very hungry. You wouldn't be that satisfied. But can you have some sugar and still lose fat? Yes, unequivocally, right? But is it a good idea to eat more vegetables and things that are filling? Absolutely, right? The problem is, and I had this the other day, people, people, people are, if you ever, I told someone, I said, you ever wanna find out how dumb the average person is, try to sell something and then look at the questions you get. Like just, just like, God bless customer support for different companies. Cause I can't even imagine what some of these companies get. But, you know, I have said repeatedly that I think a ketogenic diet has several applications. I don't think it's superior for fat loss cause the research is pretty damn clear on that that if you equate calories and protein, it's not superior for fat loss. Now, if you like to eat that kind of diet, if you prefer that and you can be sustained with that, then by God, that's fine. I'll tell you what my problem was. Let me finish, let me finish. But what somebody said to me on Twitter is like, that's not true, I lost 50 pounds on the ketogenic diet. I said, please tell me where I said it didn't work. What I said was it wasn't superior. If you like it, then by all means do it, right? So that's the same thing. Like everybody, people, what you, what I say and what people hear is two different things. Well, here's where I think your message sometime gets misconstrued. When I yell, people call them stupid. Maybe, maybe. No, no, we can talk about that too. But that's not where I was going. You talk about how, you know, they were testing the ketogenic diet versus other diets, calories were controlled, protein was controlled. No difference in weight loss, which is yes, it's true. But I think where things get misconstrued is either you're not acknowledging outwardly, because I know you would not, if I bring it up now, you'll acknowledge it, but you're not acknowledging the subject. It's very presumptuous of him, doesn't it? Well, it could be. You're not addressing the subjective satiating effects that a lot of people get when they eat a lot of fat and they don't eat a lot of carbs. And so people say keto works better for a lot of people, not because it makes your body burn more body fat, but because I don't want to eat as much. That's a major factor in a diet, is how hard it is for you. Especially when we really dive into all this shit, that all the stuff, all these semantics that we argue over is not even the big factor. The biggest factor is the psychological piece. 80% of people, no matter how fucking smart you are, no matter what great diet you put them on, it's still failing. Everybody gains the weight right back. 95%. All right, yeah. So that's a low ball at 80, 95%. And why is that? And it's because there's a psychological issue. That we're completely ignoring. Yeah, that nobody talks about. Nobody talks about that. We all argue. We all get in camps, pay Leo, keto, IIFYM, and we want to argue over who's is better and get into the science of it. When none of that fucking matters, because what really, if none of these people make the choice to follow anything for longer than six weeks, then it's none of it's gonna really help anybody. So I always find it comical that we all get into, you know, all the smart guys get all these debates over who's smarter, who's more right with the science. When no one's addressing the real elephant in the room, which is these people aren't getting diving into why, they're why they want all this shit, the psychological piece. So none of that stuff matters. Yeah, it's not just a huge factor, I think it's the factor. Cause here's a deal. Here's where I think we make mistakes with nutrition is that we believe that we can command people to do something and then that's gonna work. Like we have the answer like, okay, here's what you gotta do. Eat less calories, follow this macro, or follow this diet and you'll lose weight. We can't even fucking command ourselves. We can't even tyrannize ourselves. How many times have you told yourself, I'm gonna do that and then you don't. And you're gonna tell all the people to do shit, just doesn't work that way. So I mean, how do you feel about that piece of it, that psychological piece? Like, how big of a role that play? I know you coach a lot of people, although I would say that there's probably some self-selection bias with the people you coach, cause I'm sure a lot of them are pretty fucking serious. You're probably not getting the average person, right? Yeah, usually. You're gonna attract somebody like me to you cause I want to know more of the deeper science. You know, you're not just, with coaching, it's not just your knowledge, you're selling yourself. Like somebody's not gonna hire somebody they don't like. You know what I mean? For the most part, or they're gonna fire them pretty quick. Well, there's a lot of stuff to unpackage there, but what I'll say is in terms of satiety, fat is more satiating per gram. On a per calorie basis, it's pretty close, depending on the carbohydrate source as well. But it also is very individual. Some people do better calorie control-wise on a low-fat diet. Some people do better calorie control on a high-fat diet. Would not disagree with you, absolutely. And some people say, you know what? I don't crave fat that much. If you give me enough carbohydrate, I'm a happy camper. And vice versa, right? It really doesn't matter. I mean, you can make fat from carb and you can make, well, I can't really make carb from fat other than the glycerol backbone, but more so, fat spares carbohydrate, but that's another conversation. One that nobody gives a shit about. Yeah. I'll go back to talking about it. I care. Go back to talking about- No, I just mean this is again- If I can make a porn reference, you know, I'm gonna take care of it. They make that connection, you know? They make that connection. Go on missionary, but I spared that for, you know, doggy style, so. There's that glycerol backbone there. Slide it right in. I got key tones for you. What I would say is that that's part of it, right? Is we don't know what the difference is and part of it's probably psychological, is what people prefer. I think also psychological is the emphasis on just the dieting, just the weight loss. Nobody talks about weight maintenance after they've lost the weight. That is never discussed. Very few people actually discuss that. And that is actually the major problem. Nine out of, or sorry, six out of every seven overweight or obese people will lose a significant amount of body weight in their life. The problem is that they can't keep it off. Yeah, we don't have a weight loss problem. Yeah, we don't. Cause we lose weight all the time. And then again, it's, you know, and they all follow something to get there. So there was something that was successful for them, but really wasn't successful if they didn't keep the weight off. And that's what I tell people. I'm like, don't show me your after picture. Show me your after picture six months later or 12 months later, right? You're after after picture. We get all these people like the Dr. Erstron weight loss clinic here, which is people like, oh wow, it's a magical fat burning diet. He puts people on intercalories a day. Of course you fucking lost fat. Like, let me see it a year from now after you've rebounded, you know? Those are the ones they don't put up. How do you feel about some of the sciences coming out with fasting? How do you feel about, have you practiced fasting? Have you tried it? I have not. Holy shit. You know who should totally do fasting? You. You. Jesus Christ. Fasting and meditation may change your life. Oh my God, bro. You have no idea. Just for the experience. Well, there's a massive psychological piece from fasting that if you try it, you'll know. And I'm not talking about 12 or 15 hours. I'm talking about like 48, 72 hours. And you're not talking about some woo-woo psychological thing. You're talking about this real connection that we've made as humans to food, to food that we didn't have just a few hundred years ago. What's the longest you've ever gone without a monster? Longest I've ever gone without food? No, 16 hours. Yeah. So you've never really felt, I mean, you've never felt real, real hungry. You felt cravings. That's an interesting. Well, there is a. Most people haven't. There is, once you go through a certain amount of fasting, there's like, you can get actually like a euphoric feeling. Anterexics get this. Yeah. There's like a euphoric feeling associated with it. Well, look, a lot of here's my thing. It's like, I'm interested in. Yeah, but don't compare fasting to anterexics because one is a dysfunction. Yeah, I know. And the other one is totally, it would be like me saying, hey, I'm eating to gain muscle. And you're like, oh, you're just like that. You know, it's like eating when people are 500 pounds overweight or whatever. It's and I want to be clear with that because we talk about fasting on the podcast and we're very clear to say fasting is not a weight loss tool. In fact, if you use it for weight loss, you potentially can set yourself up for those type of behaviors which are not good for all intents and purposes. Yeah, well, and that's the big problem is I apologize. No problem. Holly, as I told you, she's had the license issue and I'm trying to, she stuck somewhere. I'm trying to get her an Uber. Basically, Lane's like, I need to be more present. I shouldn't be more distracted. Yeah, I'm in the middle of a live podcast. This motherfucker doesn't listen. No, I'm joking aside. I know I'm glad we had a chance to take care of, you know, you had to take care of some stuff but we were talking about fasting and I asked you what's the longest, if you've ever fasted before, you said no. Like what are your thoughts on fasting, some of the science that's coming out? Well, I guess, well, what I hear a lot of now is autophagy. Everybody's all about autophagy, autophagy. No, I'm not talking about you guys but mostly people talk about this stuff. I'm like, do you actually know what autophagy is? Because you keep using this word. I don't think it means what you think it means, you know? So autophagy is just the process of basically like cellular degradation, like breaking down shit that needs to be broken down. Getting rid of waste, if you will. Lysosomes, you know, proteasome. Detox. Perfect scientific word. Insert Patrick's to Facebook. That is, it's a good point to tell people though, that's what they do, that's how people sell products like that as they attach it to something like that. No, if you look at, because I looked this up when people started saying this, like, all right, well, let's see if this is something that's, you know, and killer restriction actually induces autophagy as well. So I'd like to see a comparison. Dr. Volter Longo's already doing that. Are you familiar with him? I know the name. So he's one of the premier researchers on, or the leading researchers on fasting. And so he did a study, fucking remarkable study. I'd like to see it. Actually the FDA, I believe, is now investigating. He took individuals who had terminal cancer, had them fast for 72 hours, then do their chemotherapy. And he compared them to, and man, the far more effective on the cancer and far less side effects and are protected, it seemed to have protective effects on the healthy cells. The problem with that is telling people not to eat for three days, especially in the context of modern life is very difficult. So what he's doing now is he's putting people on what's called a fasting mimicking diet where they eat very low calories, mostly fat. So no proteins, no carbohydrates. And they do this over the course of five to seven days. And he's seeing very similar, for all he knows, so far it seems like it's doing the same thing. Yeah, that's not the first time I've heard that, that Dr. Dom D'Agostino. Yeah. He studies this with Keto Jack. Yeah, he's a good friend of mine. And hear that Keto Zellets? I'm one of my good friends is like one of the main Keto researchers. Who's stronger? Get off of my fuck's ass. So here's a question. Who's smarter, you or Dom? And who's stronger, you or Dom? Wow. Because he's a strong mother fucker too. And he's a smart guy too. He's a smart guy. He's very handsome too. Very handsome, yeah. Like I'm inferior in every single way. Wow. Wow. Really? Look at his scissors. No, you pull more weight than he does. You do. I have to double listen to him. Yeah, he pulls off. But I've seen him pull 700 pounds after like fasting for 36 hours. Well, I know he did that. I know he did 500 something, which is impressive as fuck after that, but. He used to like barbell row 405. Like he's a strong fucking guy. He's a fucking moose. So yeah, so let's talk about fasting for a second. Like what do you think about that? And would you ever consider incorporating that in coaching for people, maybe to help them with? I already have people who do it in fasting. Oh really? Okay. Yeah, I just, okay, here's the upsides. Here's the downsides. What are those? Well, I mean, if you look at, you know, my background was in protein metabolism. So I always kind of start there. But I try not to be too much of a hammer trying to see nails. Part of the, one of the downsides is you can't, you can't make up for low protein at one time of the day by overeating another time of the day. You don't, we don't have any viable protein storage mechanism other than depositing in tissue. And there's a max cap to that. There's what's called the muscle full effect, right? You can only per unit time put so much in, right? So then you have this minimum threshold stimulation and max threshold for amino acids and protein. So it's more anabolic to be able to get multiple protein rich, high quality protein meals per day. Now there's a cap to that. You know, once you start getting about four or five meals, it seems like it's, you're just trying to throw more stuff in that's already full. And there does seem to be something to be said for eating a meal and kind of letting the, for lack of a better term, system reset. If you eat too frequently, it's not optimal for animals. Almost as if it becomes desensitized in a way. Yeah, we call it the muscle full effect. But yeah, the, I don't know how I want to call it desensitized. Right, cause that would, that would infer like a hormonal response. But for, from a pragmatic perspective, yes. So, but also then if you, if you're fasting for 16, 20 hours or whatever, like that is, you know, that's not anabolic and you don't seem, at least from our research, it's not like you get a rebound during that. I thought that guy's anabolic fasting guy. Oh God. Damn it. I was just going to open that up this weekend. Yeah, a funny thing, you know, Gandhi wasn't jacked, you know, like, but like people say, well, look at this, look at this guy. He's, he's big and lean and he does fasting. Well, I'm not saying you can't build muscle doing intermittent fasting. You certainly can. Is it the best thing you can do for optimizing your muscle mass? Probably not. But if your goal is not optimizing your muscle mass and strength and your body composition, and it's, you know, there's some help or if it helps you, you know, control calories, there is some evidence that some people do better with time restricted eating compared to just counting calories or overall restriction. There's some people who do better. And so that's where I use it. If people say, hey listen, I know that this is the downside of this, but I just do better this way. I feel better this way. I work out better this way. It's better for my lifestyle. What the hell? I'm fine, right? We got to keep in mind like, what's the most important thing? Consistency. Like just get somebody to be consistent and make it a lifestyle. So if that's how they're able to make it a lifestyle, who am I to say, no, you have to do it exactly this way. I, like I said, I try to be pragmatic above all else. You ever considered trying a prolonged fast in the future? No. Listen, if I found out I had cancer, the first thing I'd do is fast for three days and go on a ketogenic diet. If I found out I had cancer, that's the first thing I would do. Now, why wouldn't you try it other than that? Or why wouldn't you be proactive about that? Because, okay, let me put it this way. Why wouldn't you just start taking chemotherapy now? Well, that's a big, there's a big difference. I know, I know, but my point I'm trying to make is what prevents disease isn't necessarily the same thing as what's needed to treat disease. Well, forget about preventing, once you forget about preventing disease. Hey, oh, let me, let me finish this out. So once you've, you know, your body is a pretty elegant system. Once you've gotten to the point where you've actually insulted that system so much to where you're really sick, that actually takes a lot because there are a lot of safeguards. Like when you take biochemistry, one of the things you come to understand is it is amazing shit doesn't go wrong more often. Sure. Right? We actually have extremely, we have like redundant, redundant, redundant, and more redundancy upon the redundancy to make sure that stuff doesn't happen. It's also why there's usually no magic solutions. Like people were like, they found out that full statin was a myostatin. They're like, oh man, we finally found it. And they gave it a dejection, you know? Because it turns out that when you turn myostatin off, other things end up turning off, right? To balance it out. Right, exactly. Myostatin is more regulatory in development when your cells are still dividing. But that's, I'm getting off track. So what I would say, I think that more of what is most important for preventing cancer, and I don't wanna, I'm not a cancer expert, so I'll qualify that, definitely not a cancer expert, is overall healthy lifestyle, making sure you're exercising, controlling your calorie intake, and having healthy lifestyle habits, right? But once you've insulted that system to the point where you have massive dysregulation, now it's gonna require a much bigger punchback, so to speak. Right, so you're gonna require, you have a massive insult, you're gonna require a massive response. Right, so that being said, and I don't know a ton about this, there are, you know, the thought process behind lowering your glucose availability, and actually from what I've seen, it seems even more about raising the ketones than it is about lowering glucose, is most cancers have some, I don't wanna say most, a lot of cancers have dysfunctional mitochondria, so they're glucose-obligate users, they can only lose glucose for fuel, so obviously by providing another fuel source, you're kind of effectively starving the cancer. You're weakening them, what is that called, the Warburg effect? Warburg hypothesis, yeah. That's right, that's right. So there are some, though, that can't operate off ketones and may do better off ketones, so it probably depends on the specific type of cancer that you have. Cancer's pretty smart. Cancer, so I did some, an undergraduate. I mean, you can cut off their blood supply and they'll create their own blood supply. It's like a hydra. It's like a hydra. You cut off one head and two more, bro. I had a family member who had terminal cancer and wasn't able to make it. I know way too much or way more about cancer than I think I should, and it's very fascinating in the sense that they're very different. What works for one actually feeds another one, and they're just like the human body, because it is your body. They're pretty fucking smart, so it's, but for, you know. It's like it has a brain. You know? Yeah, so. Without sounding too woo-woo, I mean, I would say. No, I mean, yeah, I don't wanna sound too, you guys know me, I'm not a woo guy, but yeah, I mean, you know, the way it acts, it's almost like it's out thinking the doctors. It is. Yeah, so it's, you know, people say, oh, looking for a cure for cancer. There isn't gonna be a cure for cancer because cancer is like thousands of different diseases. They all have one thing in common, uncontrolled cell growth, but one cancer isn't the same as another one. You know, the treatment, like my mom has multiple myeloma, that's gonna be different than the treatment for somebody who has lung cancer. Absolutely. Yeah, so now we forget all that, okay? I'm not saying you should fast for cancer. But what do you think about fasting? Exactly. Why not try it for some of the, because here's the deal, okay? And you're a science guy, so. He's working hard, that's just like he was trying to get hard and he's smoking weed. All right. That almost happened though, peer pressure. So we had to settle for cocaine. So anyway. The, being a science guy, you look at things objectively, you see studies, but there's also, well, there's also stuff that's happened cross-culturally for thousands of years and is present in the major religions of the world. And many times those things are there because they've stood the test of time. And one of those things is fasting for the, they'll say the spiritual benefit, but I'll say for the emotional psychological benefit. And being someone who's so type A, I have one gear and that has caused both of my success and also probably contributed to a lot of the shit that's happened to me, I think fast, you would benefit so much from fasting from that sense, like fast and meditate. Like, does that scare you? It wouldn't scare me. I think a 24 hour fast plus I think would blow your mind. I think just because how aware of your body, how you feel and the science guy that you are, it will, in the very least, it would cause curiosity in someone like you, I feel. Enough to where you go like, hmm, that's pretty wild. That's interesting. That I feel this way. Oh, I'll never say never. I mean, maybe I will one day. I don't know. Do you feel like if you fast, you're acquiescing to the haters? I don't give a fuck what anybody thinks. Oh, that's good. Unless they're saying you can't do something. Sorry, that's not true. Yeah, they want to challenge you. Lane, you couldn't fast for 24 hours. Fuck you, I'll show you. That's right, exactly. Well, that's what I'm thinking. I'll fast for 48, motherfucker. That's what I'm thinking. I feel like you can't. Have you noticed? I know you're not a 72, no way. I know you've got a ton of people that you've dealt with, battle with and so like that. Is that do you notice there's certain things that really bother you that someone says versus other things that people say? You're like, oh, whatever. You don't say a lot of that. When people really speak outside their turn, like speak outside their area of expertise, authoritatively, that really pisses me off, you know, or they do or they they. Why does that make you so angry? If I had to guess, being the psycho guy who likes all that sort of, I would think I had a mom who was very authoritative with me and that's me rebelling against that as an adult with my adult relationships. No, no, more so that I know what went into actually like doing an advanced degree. I'm not saying the West has an advanced degree to be smart. I'm not saying that. But you know, when you're, you're not going to be great at five different things, right? You're great at one thing. Maybe you're really good at a couple of things. Do you know what I'm saying? Unless you're leaning over to Da Vinci. Yeah, yeah. So. We're both Italian, by the way. I always want to throw that in there. There's a lot of common lie, Olivia. That's all I'm saying. So, you know, somebody is a heart surgeon. They might have had one semester of a light nutrition course. That's true. They have no bit, no more than I have any business talking about, you know, like when we just talked about cancer, I just qualified that by saying, I'm not an expert. I think I've read some things. I didn't say, do this. This is the way it should be done. I think they're qualified to say something. I think they're not, I don't think they're in a position though to lean on their education as they're. Well, everybody has a right to an opinion. Right, right. You have it. You also have the right to be told that your opinion is full of shit. Of course. Very, very true. You don't have a right to not have your feelings, sir. I mean, that's, I mean, listen, you can, you can say that, you know, sugar is toxic. I'm not talking about you, sir. Just whoever, Thomas DeLauer, whatever. It's not toxic. Whatever the guy, whatever the guy. So just and I have, and I have the right to say escalated. That's actually bullshit. And you don't know what you're talking about. No, no, no, no. Artificial sweetness. Yeah. So it's, you know, the Dunning-Kruger effect. Unfortunately, like, you know, when you first start in something, you know that you know nothing. But then when you learn a little bit, you actually think you know way more than you actually know, right? Then you know more and then you realize you know shit. And then as you start to know more and more, you realize, oh, actually, I don't know much. And then it starts to come back up right near the end, right? So yeah, like I don't even feel real comfortable. Like if somebody asked me a, you know, a vitamin K question, I'd be like, yeah, it's important for blood clotting. That's about it. I don't feel qualified to really talk about much else, you know. Well, I've always appreciated it. I mean, that's how I found you originally way back when was you were the first guy online that I thought was calling out all the bullshit that was going on in the bodybuilding world with all the bro science. And I, you know, I was a guy that I know for sure I didn't know more than a lot of these scientists, but I knew more than what these bros were trying to share with you. And I was seeking out, okay, there's gotta be somebody who knows more than I do in this field. So when there wasn't a lot and you were one of the first few. And so I know you made a big name by being that guy who kind of called the way out. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think that I could, there were times when I'll tell you the evolution of that mindset. I actually, I kind of wanted to call people out, but at the same time, I didn't want to be known as the guy who called people out because I don't want that to what I'd be known for. And my approach was at first, I'm like, all right, you know, I'm a libertarian. So I'm like, all right, the market will sort this out, right? If they're full of shit, the market will sort this out. And you figure out that they kind of game the system. You know what I mean? Especially with these coaches who have like, who are also promoters and embedded with organizations and all this kind of stuff. Like you realize that there's, it's not going to happen that way unless you say something, right? So that was about 2012, 2013, when I really started. I don't think there's very many people I called out by name, you know what I mean? You're just calling out the bullshit. I was calling out, I was trying to target the practices rather than the people. Right, you weren't saying this person, you were saying. No, listen, if somebody directs me to something and I come up there and I see something, I might just say something on their post, you know? But I think Charles Pollack when it's threatened to beat me up with a baseball bat more than once. Wow. Dude, there's another polarizing. Dude, you're, you know, here's the deal. Like you're definitely polarizing. I know in our forum, so we have a private forum and. Oh, I'm sure that's fun to read. Well, no, I'll tell you, I'll tell you what, there's people that love you on there. I'm sure. And then there's people like, I can't stand in arguments amongst, he's a zealot or he's dogmatic. And other people like, no, he's great. He's this and that and the other. And here's what I always say. I'm passionate. I'm not dogmatic. I think you guys would agree with that. Well, let me explain. This is, I come to your defense on people who tended not like you. And this is what I always say, like, whether you agree with the guy or not, because I don't, I definitely don't agree with you on everything. Or at least they think when we start talking, we end up finding out. I think we end up discovering that really what, you know, that we agree more than we disagree. But here's the bottom line. Like I always appreciate and respect anybody who is going to talk straight. And I can ask you a question and you're going to talk straight to me and we're going to have a conversation. And I fucking appreciate that. I don't care if we disagree on everything. So at the end of the day, doesn't matter whether I like you or not. And I will say this off the record, I probably hang out with you. I think you're a cool guy. I don't see any problem with you, but I respect you. And I think that that's more important. And it's because, again, you come on the show, we talk to you, we can ask you questions, you're going to fucking talk about it. You talk to, you know, you went on your own social media to talk about your person. Like, let me tell you something, you know? You put yourself out there to be ridiculed. You got to have a big set in order to do that. And I respect that. So that's what I respect most about you. And I appreciate you coming on the show, letting us talk to you, ask these questions. You know we don't agree on everything, but you still agree to do so. So I appreciate that. Well, thank you. I had somebody say something the other day, they're like, man, what did they say? They were like, I just, I had said something, like I'd cursed or something like that in the post. And somebody was like, couldn't you try to be more professional? I said, listen, man, if you want vanilla and politically correct, you came to the wrong spot. Okay? Like, do you want me to be like everybody else who's like, you know, who's just like, oh, well, don't want to offend anybody because they might buy something one day. You know what I mean? Like I'm going to tell you how I really feel. Or I'm going to just to tell you, I'm not going to answer that. Sure. You know, like that's how I'm going to do it. And, you know, I can say there's a, there's a, you know, Adam could sit here and cycle analyze me for another three hours and talk about all the stuff that I'm fucked up with. But I'll tell you, I'm many things. I have many drawbacks, but there's one thing I'm not, and that's fake. I'm not fake. What you see is what you get. And I'll tell you how I really feel. Which is probably why we all connect. Yeah. I mean, that's something that we value integrity. We value that. No way in a million years will we invite you back on the show if we thought you were a charlatan or a bullshitter or you lacked, you know. Thank you. Yeah, that's, there's no way in hell. There's been guests that we've had on the show. I'm not going to name names, but they were nice. And they left and were like, you know what? That was fucking ridiculous. I'm not going to talk to, it's very difficult to have a good conversation with fake people. I definitely do not think you're fake, which I think is part of the reason why you're so polarizing. I think the other part of the reason, and maybe you can agree or disagree with me, is because you are ready to fight all the time. Like you have your fucking hands up, ready to throw down. Let's go. All the time. Always up for a good mental scrap. Yes, absolutely. And I think maybe you jump the gun sometimes a little bit. Or maybe, maybe you, when it's time for you to hit, it's like, you don't, they slap you and you reply with a tank. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, you know what I mean? Like way more than I need to. Oh, 100%. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm used to getting it a lot. It's always been that way. Cause I think, I think when you're outspoken and you're passionate and you tell people how you really feel, some people aren't going to do well with that. And, you know, some people just ain't going to dig you. And you know, one thing mom told me, and I agree with this, she was like, honey, you're never going to make everybody happy. You're like, some people are going to hate you just for breathing, just for being who you are. So you might as well just be who you are. And that was some great advice. So, you know, if there's some people out there who don't like me or whatever. Sure, when I like everybody like me, of course. But you know what? Like there's certain people like, you know, oh, fuck it, we're all, we're all being, I'm sure he'll make a video, but whatever. Like Vegan Gaines, this guy who's, you know, like he told Furious Pete, he hoped he died from his cancer, you know. That guy's a fucking, and again, some people make mistakes, right? So I get that, right? Some people say I'm a piece of shit. But when you're repeatedly saying things like this and you're just repeatedly an asshole and the only thing you contribute is criticism of other people. So it's just like, yeah, fuck, where was I going with that? Well, I think people like- I totally got a side track, it just popped in my head. I think people like him and like Blaha and these people that you've had, I think they are kind of sick. I don't think they really give a shit about what even the things they're saying to, they just know that they've learned that- That's gonna bother me when I was coming with that. Oh, just- Well, they've learned that that's how to get you riled up. And I don't think they really care about even making a point. I really think that that's all, they're seeking that. They're both fucking nuts. Of course, but they know how to get your attention. But, and yeah, and to be fair, like they probably won in some ways because I responded. Like, you know, I figured that out a little bit too late, you know, but probably the best thing I could have done in Blaha's case was just fucking not responding. Realize that guy's an idiot. He lives in like a fucking rental shed or something and is miserable with his life. Like, hi, you win, you wake up in the morning and you win. So just like, chill out with not being like, who gives a shit what that person says? But again, that's like- You did, that's right. That's the problem, right? So that again, lesson learned, right? And that was, we talked about my business stuff earlier and kind of, you know, I could have fought some things out longer, but there's something to be said with just moving forward with your life, right? Like, yeah, yeah, there is a time to fight, you know what I mean? But there's also a time to say, how much energy is this draining from you that you could be using to create and do positive shit? You know what I mean? And in that Blaha case, like, you know, I go back and forth on that, you know, it's kind of like, okay, I made a point, you can't just say whatever the hell you want and have no repercussions. But at the same time, it's like, why did I have to let it affect me, right? I could have just fucking gone off with my life, used that time and energy and done something better with it. But I think finally I learned from it, you know? Who gives a damn- Who's the last heavy battle that you've been in with somebody virtually right now? Who's the last one that was vegan gains last one or you had somebody recently? I don't think I've ever really got it. No, he wants to debate me, but it's kind of like... Oh, really? He's actually down to do a debate. Yeah, that's something you're open to. Oh boy, here we go. So that's kind of like... We've tried to host these for you. I know, exactly. So we'll put a ring together and we'll do this. So there's two issues. One, you're not oftentimes in a debate, the person who just yells the loudest is perceived as the winner. And two, do I dignify that with a response? Like, do I even want to acknowledge? That's a great point. The second one is a good point, definitely. People, because he criticized my PhD. Really, bro? It was so easy. Well, I'll tell you what. Tell you what, you go do one. If my PhD is a joke and it was that fucking easy, go get one. I have one, it's great. And guess what? I got fucking paid to do mine. So for a genius like you, it shouldn't be fucking easy. So go for it. You know what I mean? Come talk to me when you got it. So that's, you know, it's kind of like one of those things. But at the end of the day, it's like... It's kind of like one of those things that you're still dealing with. Because I mean, it even fires you up when you retell a story. Yeah, I mean... And that can feel the passion in your voice with even saying it. I get more upset at the mindset of people like that than I do with the actual person. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but stop right there. And why? Why do you? Why do you? Why the fuck do you care? Why do you care about somebody's else's mindset? He's over in some garage, fucking living with his mom still, angry at you because he wants your life. And yet that makes you fucking angry that he's gonna try and mentally fuck you. Like who cares? More so to the point of I look at that and like you actually could do something with that. You have a platform, you could actually do something. Fuck him. He can't do anything. Obviously he's not going to. All he can do is get your attention. No, you're right. You're right, you're right. So see? So maybe as you go into eufortherapy. Well, it's not even that. So one of the best things that was ever talked to me was, you know, before I respond to anybody is to think desired outcome. What is my desired outcome by responding to this person? Now, if I'm being completely honest with myself, a lot of the times it's to feed my own ego. Yeah. You know, somebody, 100% it's that. Fuck yeah, I know it's that. Hey now, come on. But that's an existential problem. I'm out of here. That's an existential problem, by the way. It's not a Lane Norton problem. Right. And that's what I'm sharing that with. I sit here and say, I don't have an ego. God. Oh, you have to. We all do. We all do. And you know what? They can be used for good, too. It's not just a bad thing. It's not, I don't believe that the ego is bad. All bad. So what makes us human? But we tend to, when we make, when we do things like that, we have decisions like that. It is that me trying to feed an ego or an insecurity that I'm trying to overcompensate for. So if I'm being truthful with myself and I learn to unpack that before those moments happen, or when they, because in your case, it'll probably happen again. Somebody's trying to, they know they can fuck with you. And you've got to ask yourself, like, OK, and I want to respond. And you're like, oh, I want to respond because this guy's got a huge platform and he's given out terrible advice. Fuck this zealot. And that's what you want to say. But really, it's like what you got to ask yourself is, why do you even care? Well, are you really helping more people that way? So when it's not an attack, when it's actually just bad advice, I'm not doing it for that person's benefit. I'm doing it for the benefit of the people watching who I might change their mind, right? But in the case of like these other two that I've talked about, honestly, probably it's because when I was bullied, when I was younger, I was told not to stand up for myself, you know? And no, no hate to mom. I understand why she did this, but she was like, you can never get in a fight under any circumstance. You know, my dad would be like, take me over to the court. I wasn't sure. Start nothing, but you finish it if you have to, you know, like that sort of thing. But I felt like, you know, literally I'd be backed into a corner with kids, you know, saying terrible things, doing terrible things. And I felt like I had no power, you know what I mean? And so it's kind of like, okay, well, now you push me. I'm not some helpless kid. I'm going to push back, you know, but probably the best way to stand up to that is to not address it at all. You know, and actually that's one of the things my therapist said was, you know, I've had times where I'm not going to go into detail, but somebody would be bullying me and she would say, don't respond. That's standing up for yourself is not responding. Because if you give them, if you get round up, then they're showing that they're getting to you. Right. You give your power. You give your power away. So, so, so I had some similar experiences that this was really groundbreaking for me was the bullies that you had when you were a kid represented actual people. But now it's this idea. And now you're okay. I'm still fighting bullies. It's this person online. It's this, but in reality, who's bullying you now? Right. You are. Yeah. You are now your biggest. You are now tyrannizing yourself in the sense that you are making decisions that you know that, oh, fuck, what am I doing? This is going to end up terribly for me. It's just stressing me out. This is not worth the time and energy, but then there's a party that bullies you that says, no, never again, like before, keep doing this. So you're still. Well, what you learn is we're kind of slaves to our childhood a lot of times. Totally. You know what I mean? I actually, we actually, Holly and I listened to a book called Your Brain on Love and you, it's by a guy named, uh, um, Technic, Stan Technic. And he's a, um, he studies, uh, childhood attachment. So basically how children interact with their parents. And holy shit. Like, listen to this book. You under, like, not only do you understand your partner better, you understand why dump, some dumb shit triggers you, you know what I mean? Like you ever get mad at something and go, why the fuck did I get mad at that? You know what I mean? Like, or even like one where you was like, it was like a knee jerk. Like you didn't even think about it. You just immediately triggered you, you know, hashtag triggered. Um, and so. Like, and he talks about how your parents interacted with you or how your family interacted with you, sets you up for a lot of how your relationships, your interpersonal relationships are going to be in the future. And, uh, like, um, you know, there's three different basic categories, islands, anchors, waves. And, uh, an island, for example, as somebody like their, their most horrifying thing in the world, they can be as a bird, feel like a burden to somebody else. So they like their auto-regulation or when their stress is they want to be alone. They don't want to talk and they want to keep everything close to the vest. I want to be on an island. It's all about, it's all about protecting themselves, right? Uh, an anchor is somebody who could, who usually grew up in a, and typically, and he says, nobody's a hundred percent of one. Everybody's blends. But, you know, an island typically had one parent that was Barry aloof. And if ever the child wanted something, the parent would make them feel like they were a burden. So that set him, them up to feel like later in life, that feeling like a burden was the worst thing in the world, right? And then there's anchor families. Anchor families were usually like your strong families. They had mostly good interactions. They never felt like they weren't going to be able to get their affection and their love and the things they needed. They felt stable, right? And they do well with being alone and they do well with being with other people. And then there's waves and waves are kind of the opposite of island. They, they, their auto-regulation is they like being around people. If they, if something happens, they want to talk about it. They want to talk about it. They want to talk about it. They'll beat it into the floor, right? And usually they had one parent that would, waves are a little bit more complicated to explain, but essentially like their, their auto-regulation is like clingy. You know what I mean? And it also talks about how when you're with somebody, who the person you're with can change how you act. So for example, if you're an island, but you are with somebody who's like the island of islands, you become more like a wave, right? Because it's like people chase what retreats or that sort of thing. You know? So if, if you're used to being the one who's has to be like, oh God, stop being so clingy. And then all of a sudden you're not getting that affection that you usually get. Now, now you're the one who starts being more clingy. You know what I mean? It was extremely fascinating. I would definitely recommend it, you know, but you understand so much more about yourself and how you interact with things. But I was telling holiday, I'm like, God, isn't it amazing like how when you're a kid, you don't really even think much about this stuff. It might bother you for a few minutes, but then later in life, it affects every single thing you do. You know what I mean? That's actually been like an eye-opening experience for me that like, like in terms of parenting, like not to neglect the little stuff, you know? Try not to, you know, don't make your kids feel like a burden when they ask you for something, you know, that sort of thing. Because then they're going to, they're going to view that and their relationships and they move forward. You're shaping them right now, man. Yeah. It's why I think it's so scary when you see so many people having kids at such a young age. So like I don't even know yourself. Right. I have my buddy Paul was like thirty five. Right. No one should get married till thirty five. He's like, you don't even know what you want, you know? Well, sometimes it's the it's part of how you know who you are, is you got to get you get married young and you get divorced later or whatever. And it's like now I know. And not to say that there's people who stay together and have healthy relationships. But a lot of that is a conscious effort to grow together and be on the same page and those hard conversations. If you think you're going to marry somebody and in ten years, they're going to be the same person you're married, you signed up for the wrong fucking thing. Yeah. That's the bottom line. You're not going to be the same and they're not going to be the same. And those two people either need to grow together or you're not going to be the same people. It should be together. Yeah. And I think that that like one of the things I learned is like, I think everybody should get counseling as a couple, just like as maintenance, like you do like changing the oil on your car. You're the second person that's told us this on this on this trip, in fact, and I agree with that. You know, and address problems when they come up, because the worst thing that can happen is like start to get like that resentment, you know what I mean? Well, you don't even address the the problems anymore. You're just like just communicating. Yeah. That's, you know, yeah, that's when you feel like you can't talk to somebody anymore or whatever. Or you feel like you only talk about certain things. Yeah, I just like once that starts to fester, it's really hard. But, you know, people, people don't know what they don't know. But yeah, everybody listening, like, I would definitely check out, even if you're single, check out that book, because it will make you understand like, like we'll put it in the show notes. What's it called again? Your brain on love, your brain on the neurobiology of healthy relationships. Excellent. And it's like, you know, he talks about two, like people say, why always pick assholes or always pick this or always well, the reason you're picking is there's something familiar about that person. And usually said our pickers after age 25, for the most part, usually aren't broke. It's just that we don't know how to interact with that certain person, right? Like, whatever, because, you know, love is also we have all this information, but you can have a person that fits every single thing that you say you want, and it just doesn't click. You know what I mean? Like, you could have every single checkmark and it just doesn't click, right? And then you can have somebody only like, there's only one thing you guys really gotta come for whatever reason, it just fucking clicks. You know what I mean? And so learning how you interact with that person based on who they are and based on who you are is like a huge thing. I love it when you get esoteric. I was going to call it out. You didn't even smoke any weed. Imagine if you did. So balls like more about love. Balls deep enough. Well, hey, man, I keep feeling like one of these troops because we have these gaps between senior to he's going to come back and he's going to be all hippie out. He's going to be meditating. Oh, let's pull up in the van. So sad. Open the panel van. The smoke will roll out. I found the answer. I dropped acid and everything changed. Change your life, man. No, man. Listen, it's always a pleasure to have you on again because you're willingness to talk about whatever and your openness and we appreciate it. Yeah, I mean, I appreciate having the opportunity to do it. I mean, you know, like, you know, I'll make one point because I don't think I talked about earlier, but some people said, why would you put your personal stuff out there like that? And I get that criticism. The reason I did this was one. She'd already put it out there. So my my kids were going to see it and I wanted them to be able to what I wanted to do it for me, to be honest, because I just would feel better. I felt better doing it. So it was a selfish thing in one hand. Also, I wanted the kids to be able to see, OK, dad fucked up, but dad also took responsibility for it. Dad said he was wrong. You know what I mean? And also. So people could learn from my mistakes. You know what I mean? Like, that's what I said in the video. I'm like, listen, if you're going to like take care of this shit now, you know, don't make the same mistakes I made. Like, you know, we can either learn from our own mistakes or less painfully we can learn from other people's mistakes. So if that helps some people, it was worth it. So that's kind of why I put it out there, you know, because. I guess it would be easier to play it closer to the vest and just because, you know, people are so fickle, like she had come up. People call me names and then two months later, nobody cares. Did it bother you that people were saying like you're doing it just right now because to cover your ass, because of what's going out, did that bother you at all? That I actually put it out after all the settlement was final and everything. So it wasn't me trying to try to try to get a better deal. Yeah, I mean, obviously, you got to take my word for that. But. No, I mean more like everything that you're going through with like just going through the nutrition business and like. Oh, I was doing it for attention. Yeah, yeah. I can see how they feel that way. Yeah, you know, everybody's like I said, everybody's right to their opinion. I think I guess what I would say is at the end of the day, you never really know what's going on in somebody's life. I think, you know what, if you like somebody for the information they give out and you like the way they interact personally, then like that. But don't don't think that that person's perfect. Nobody's perfect. We've all done bad things that we regret in our lives. Of course, do you think you do you think you attract a lot of a lot of followers that have a similar story as you? Like we're bullied and like or like, look like they kind of rage the same way to like probably I mean, you you tend to attract what you put out. You know what I mean? So yeah, I think that's what you know. When you think about that, you probably you probably literally have a split of bullies and people that have been bullied that follow you. So you're dealing with all the fuckers that you're dealing with your whole entire life. They're falling because they want to just they want to try and you're encouraging them. As long as they buy the e-book, we're good. But so I always say, you know, that's one thing is like people may hate me. But when I put my information out there, they're still going to listen. You know what I mean? You may hate me, but you're still interested in what I have to say. Well, dude, no matter whether you're an asshole or not, you're a smart guy. Hey, who said I was an asshole? I would know how he really feels. Like I said, I appreciate you let me come on and, you know, for those who don't know, none of this is scripted. This is all just completely we never everybody knows us. Yeah, they know. So it's, you know, I know we're going to talk about today, but it's, you know, I, like I said, I'm it's cathartic for me to talk about it. For sure. Like I I feel better after I talk about it, keeping it close is what what poisons. Absolutely. We talk about that all the time that our shows have been that way for us. Fuck, you know, when you start putting out 700 episodes, you start really analyzing all the things, not only the things you're saying, but then your own beliefs. Like, wow, I said that. Do I really believe that? Why do I feel that way? Why was I so passionate about speaking like you start to really analyze all that stuff? Yeah, I mean, you know, at the end of the day, everybody's got different belief systems. Everybody's all you can do is one, try to do it the best you can based on what is important to you and what you believe, right? Because at the end of the day, you just got to live with yourself. Right. And so, hey, your belief system may be different than somebody else's that make yours, right? Then make theirs wrong, then make it vice versa, right? But make take actions based on what is in line with your beliefs and what's important to you and your integrity, right? And do what you love, you know, and and and try to try to find a way to be positive. Like, that's that's kind of my again, that's my my value system. I can't I can't argue with that. You know, definitely can't argue with that. So, you know, even when I was going through all this shit I went through, there was this voice in the back of my head that kept saying, keep going, keep this flywheel going, keep pushing forward, keep keep and you feel like walking with cement blocks on, you said that, right? So, you feel like and I just OK, even if we're just inching along, let's just keep going because if you're going through a hard time in your life, eventually it's not going to last forever unless you die. But it's not going to last forever. Eventually you're going to come out of it. But if you let yourself sink into that and you don't keep moving, you don't try to keep that momentum going, even if it's dangerous place, even if it's just inching along, then you're going to come out of it, get to a place and now you're so far behind because you let yourself sink. Right? Does that make sense? Well, it does. And it's a dangerous place to be in. It's a dangerous place to sit there and just be, you know, I mean, they've done so many studies on this, right? Or if people feel a sense of autonomy or at least a sense of, OK, I can do something about this way better results than when people feel like they're completely helpless and they have no choice in anything that's going on. And that's that's always bullshit. You can't always control what happens to you. In fact, you can't control a lot of shit that happens to you, but you can always control what you do next. That's it. Right? That's it. And so it doesn't mean you're going to have good options even, but you've always got options. There's always an option. So and like the way I just kept telling myself keep forward, forward. And I'm not saying I would never get down and say, well, it was me, 100% did that. But I wouldn't let it last very long. It was just, OK, what what can I do right now today? Because there's always something you can do. But the worst thing you can do is nothing. Excellent. Excellent. Thanks again, brother. Yeah, sure. Thank you guys. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes Maps Anabolic, Maps Performance and Maps Aesthetic, nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs with detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Superbundle is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30 day money back guaranteed and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.