 Good. The future role of the D9 Plus delivering an innovative economy fit for global leadership. That's the topic of this afternoon's discussion. Welcome to you all here in person and online, and a particular welcome to our speakers and Minister Kaleri. And also thanks to Amazon, one of our most active members for supporting this event today. We've got a little more than an hour. We're running slightly late. So rather than me going into any formal introductions, I think you've all read who we have today. I'm going to hand over to the Minister to give the opening sort of 15-minute address. Thank you, Minister. Good morning. Good afternoon, everybody. My apologies. I was just delayed there. There's an incident unfolding in North Ulcer with everybody who's being affected by it. But I am delighted to be here with you all. To talk about D9, it's a welcome everybody that's here, everybody that's online. I think D9 is something that's incredibly important for Ireland, an incredibly important forum, and will be even so next year when we can share it. And I look forward to welcoming it to Dublin. Margin in Sweden back in 2016, and Ireland was a key player in its formation back then. At that time, the European Commission had a relatively new focus on digital. A large package of files, which was collectively known as the digital single market files, were under discussion. A group of like-minded member states worked effectively together in Brussels on those specific legislative proposals. And following on from that work, and growing from that work, the D9 was set up and had a higher level strategic, more long-term mandate. Essentially, in 2023, the vision of the D9 remains that what was established in Sweden back in 2016. It's a political and a public initiative. It's based in capital. Representation is at a political level. And it's a platform for dialogue with the public and with the business sector. And a forum for visioning and for challenging debate on future digitalization issues. Since then, numerous exchanges are regularly held at ministerial level in the D9 capitals around issues such as the DSM. And now that the digital decade has taken its place and has grown from that original small focus on the digital single market. And in the acceptance that our economies are even more tied to technological advances, the D9 has become very firmly rooted. But the digital and the green transition have become interlinked. And our front and center for all policymakers, for our future economic, our social and environmental well-being. The very flexible format of the D9 has been an important factor in allowing member states to exchange constructively. To use a famous EU phrase that my colleague, Foreign Minister Creighton will be well used, there is a degree of constructive ambiguity around D9 moniker. At its core, more small countries originating, if I'm not mistaken, in those countries that were digital front-runners according to the first European Commission DESI index published in 2015. However, the format of the meetings has been and continues to be flexible. And at times it's included Norway and the UK and others. And now D9 has become D9 plus and has grown to 12 members as envisaged when the group was first emerged. The purpose of D9 has always been about the necessity of smaller member states to work together to maintain their collective influence on the EU stage. D9 countries don't, of course, agree on everything. And indeed, views will change and views will evolve over time. And that is why that flexible format is important. And as digital policy cuts across many different ministries, across many different countries in all member countries, a minister attending and participating in D9 events depends on the focus of the discussion. So for instance, next month's D9 plus ministerial meeting in Brussels will have two ministers, my colleague Oshin Smith, who leads on connectivity in the government to, along with myself, focusing on the digital economy. The world was very different in 2016, even though it was only eight years, seven years ago. But yet the changes that are happening as we speak and that have happened since have underlined the continued importance of multilateral and global cooperation and underlined the importance of the D9. 2016 was the year the UK voted to leave. Many of the D9 would have naturally gravitated towards UK's world view at the time, which is very much on the open side of open strategic autonomy. In response to the UK's departure, there is a greater need for smaller EU members to invest in building up our capital to capital relationships. And in Ireland, we are and have always been very conscious of this. And as part of the global Ireland strategy, with a commitment to deepening our global footprint, we are strengthening and continuing to strengthen our diplomatic presence in EU countries. We are also conscious that, as I said previously, small countries on the EU stage must work together to allow our voice to be heard. And of course, the D9 isn't necessarily small countries. We count Spain and Poland amongst our number. And if anyone is struggling on EU mathematics, that would just be about enough to make a blocking minority. But that is not our purpose. The D9 is there for cooperation, for collaboration. But equally, it also shows that the D9 cannot be ignored. In 2016, the world was slightly more tech-optimistic. I think politically, even then, there were cracks. Some of those are now deepened significantly. And digital policy has become responsive to the events and to the technologies that have emerged during that time. In 2016, the only significant digital legislation on the horizon was GDPR, which came into force as subsequently. Collectively, we in the EU have developed significant digital regulation since then, in areas such as audio-visual policy, access to data, consumer and competition policy, and online safety. Two recent key pieces of legislation that will impact on all Europeans are the Digital Services Act and the Digital Markets Act. The Artificial Intelligence Act, the AI Act, is another key digital file, and that is coming to finalisation as we speak. Europe has been a pioneer on the digital regulatory front, and Europe has been instrumental in settling and settling global standards, all based on shared values and on principles. Already, we can see this taking shape in AI, with a global push to address potential risks. The digital world has no borders, and it's important that Europe continues to set an example in terms of cooperation and collaboration that others see a value in following. Here in Ireland, we have, we continue, and we will continue to play an outsize role in enforcing and in drafting this legislation. We are committed to providing the necessary legislation and the relevant resources for their timely and effective implementation. Commission Neman was formally established last March. It is Ireland's Digital Services Coordinator under the Digital Services Act, and it will also enforce the Audio-Visual, Media Services Directive, and the Terrorist Content Online Regulations. Legislation is in preparation to give existing bodies additional powers arising from the Digital Markets Act, from the Data Act, and the Data Governance Act. The Consumer and Competition Protection Commission, Comrig, the Office of Government Chief Information Officer, and the Central Statistics Office will all gain extra powers under this, and within my own department we are investing significantly in CCPC and in Commission Neman to allow them to have the resources to fulfill their mandate, and we continue as a government to expand the role of the Data Protection Commission. It is a challenge to constantly keep ahead of legislation and technology in this space and to ensure the appropriate resources are being invested. We have excellent cross-governmental collaboration, which is essential due to the interlinkages between all of these areas, and to ensure clear and effective structures in light of the importance of Ireland as the European place of establishment for 11 of 13 very large online platforms as designated. As these regulations take effect and begin to deepen, we will continue to maintain a non-going review of resources to ensure that our regulators possess the necessary skills, staffing levels and technological backup for effective implementation. Domestically, we are continuing to make strides in implementing Harnessing Digital, which is our national digital strategy. Our strategy aligns with the digital decade vision of the EU with its four pillars, digital infrastructure, digital government, digital skills and the digitalization of business. A progress report will be presented to cabinet shortly. My department also leads on the National AI Strategy, AI Here for Good, and we have made substantial progress in the two years since its launch. This year's DESI Index continues to show Ireland's strong performance relative to our EU peers, but we must continue to strive to improve in order to meet our very ambitious targets in relation to digitalization of business, which includes an update of big data, cloud and AI to 80% of businesses, which Enterprise Ireland, our local enterprise office network and our four European digital innovation hubs are continuing to drive. We are finalizing the Grow Digital Portal, which will allow companies to access their digital presence, their digital maturity and to find solutions to suit the specific company to meet the targets that we are setting. And we are examining how to broaden eligibility for digital funding schemes. The close engagement between D9 and the business community, which I mentioned as the founding principle of D9, has been solidified through the B9, with Ibeq instrumental in this group. B9 now meets alongside D9 to facilitate this dialogue and ongoing communication. As I said at the outset, Ireland will take the chair of the D9 for the first half of 2024. The D9 ministerial gathering will be held in April and it will coincide with our annual digital Ireland conference, which we will be hosting in Dublin Castle on the 18th of April. This conference, the first iteration of which we ran this time last year, will be a very exciting opportunity to engage business community, political community, the academic and key players in our local innovation ecosystem and to get them together in discussions in the one venue. The two themes for the digital Ireland conference will be AI and looking to the digital priorities of the next European Commission. The D9 plus ministerial will discuss the importance of a consistent, of a coherent, but also of an innovative approach to EU digital regulation. We want regulation. We want to ensure that it works, but that it works with and not against innovation and economic opportunity. We will have I'm sure another also use the opportunity of that time, maybe two months out from European elections to discuss priorities for the next European Parliament and the next European Commission in this space. And I am absolutely determined that Ireland will use the full six months that we hold the D9 plus chair to share the Irish vision that a proportionate approach to digital regulation will lay a strong foundation for an innovative, a thriving and a lively digital single market in Europe, which respects those four key principles of D9 that I outlined at the beginning. I look forward to you all joining us in Dublin Castle in April. I look forward to engagement on D9 and D9 plus issues with the IIA between now and then. And I look forward to hearing about today's discussions for me and Markov. Many thanks minister for that exactly to time as well before joining our panelists to respond and give their own perspectives from Belgium on screen from Spain to my left here on the panel and from Ireland. Let me just do a couple of the standard housekeeping notes. Your questions are very welcome. Anybody here just indicate to me at any point during the course of the discussion that you like to pose a question. Anybody online who wants to put a question, I'm looking at a screen in front of me, they will come up and I'll be able to put those questions to the speaker. You might identify yourself, whether you're here in person or online so that we know who you are. And also just to remind everyone everything today is on the record. That includes obviously anybody posing questions as you might imagine. So with that, let me go to our first speaker, first panelist I should say, Alberto Gargo Fernandez, who's advisor to the Secretary of State for Digitalization and AI Spain. Thank you. Thank you very much. I don't have a speech as such. I will just give a few comments on what the minister just referred to. Spain is indeed one of the D9 plus countries since 2021. We entered into this group quite late, but because we had a commitment and the firm belief that the group can solidify impact in whatever is going to happen in the future of the commission and also in defining all the political priorities that the commission was going to have. And this happened, this was very clear when we signed the declaration on the digital decade back in 2021, together with the D9 plus countries. And that had a real impact in how the commission defined the digital decade policy program that was then put into a decision and it was then adopted by all the member states in the council and also together with the parliament, the co-legislator. Since then Spain saw the potential of this and we wanted also to host or to chair the D9 plus group and we did that in December 2022, so the second part of 2022, together with the Digital Economy Ministerial Meeting that we organized in the Canary Islands of the OECD minister. So that means that we brought to the Canary Islands to talk about digital economy more than 40 countries of the world, the 38 that are part of the OECD plus other embities, for example Indonesia which at that time was the presidency of the G20 and other countries where discussions focus a lot on how to ensure digital rights are part of the digital transformation and the human centric vision that we are having at the European Union is not only focused on the fact that humans should be at the center but they rights should be at the center. So they should be empowered to use those rights when they are online in a platform or when they are faced with a decision taken by an AI algorithm or in any other or with their data when it's shared either for commercial or not commercial purposes. We brought the discussion in the OECD, also we tackled these issues as well within our D9 plus meeting where we put forward a statement a chair statement that was agreed by all the members on one side was on 5G saber security and on the other side was on digital skills and how we should look at building the necessary skills in the European Union in order to be able to cope with the digital transformation not only basic skills of individuals at all ages of your life but also advanced skills so that we have enough workforce to cope with the transition that our economies are going to enter. In this regard this was also key because on 2023 I don't know if you know but it was the year of the skills for many for the European Union so that was interesting to see how all the digital nine plus states were proposing initiatives that they have done nationally for example the Ireland proposes skill net initiative and that could be an example that can be scaled at European level through more harmonization from more coordination and also to have enough information for the policy makers at the European Commission to build future policies on advanced and digital skills and now after the D9 so we are holding at the moment the Presidency of the Council of the U you all know this already we have one of those it's called in English Golden Presidences because you suppose that you finish you have to finish all the legislative action but it's already negotiated in Spain we call it the BRAS Presidency so that you brass things out a way it's a bit funny how the translation is there so we do have we focus on that matter on I mean we close the EIDAS the digital identity European Digital Identity Regulation we close the Europe Interoperability Act in order for public administrations to be interoperable with all of them and we are now in the let's say in the verge of closing the cyber resilience act that you know it's about software and hardware and IoT products the cybersecurity of those of those products and software and also we are now in the final stages of the negotiation on the AI Act that I mean if there are questions I can we can also talk about this too because I'm involved myself in the trilogues or the technical meetings so on that on that aspect and but I mean that that is important for sure but what we saw from the very beginning is what you mean is to refer to that the possibility to influence the next commission mandate and in this regard we have adopted four declarations two of them with Ireland one on the development of a human centric and rights oriented neuro technologies for the future of the union because it's important that we look at these technologies that are going to help us overcome some of the challenges in the generative diseases for example but also are going to open up a lot of competitive competitiveness in the area of education and also entertainment so we need to develop these technologies Spain the European Union have a lot of potential on being at the forefront of these technologies but we need to do this always considering our vision of human centricity and rights oriented as well we have adopted another declaration on use European startups and scalabs on the need that we need to have on the need that the commission needs to put forward a strategy on this aspect in particular that goes throughout the whole life cycle of the startups and scalabs not only on how to create new startups but also on on how they exit to this to the market or exit the strategies to stock market sorry or also the the the challenges that they may have with regards to a faction of talent or a faction of of finance or investment here in the European Union apart from that we also adopted a presidency declaration on on a trusted data with trusted cloud to produce trusted AI in the context of Gaia X which Ireland I believe it's also part of this of this family and finally last week we held the AI alliance in Madrid in 16 and 17th and we adopted another declaration with 15 countries 15 states from Latin America and the European Union to reinforce and cooperate and converge on AI policy and regulatory framework so that whatever we do at the European Union it also becomes as you mentioned minister a global standard in the world as it happened with the GDPR we from the Spanish presidency we see it's clear that all the legislation that we are putting forward together it's going to come to become a golden standard because it's the top standard that you know companies may will have in the world and it's easier to adopt that standard and apply it across across the board rather than you know modulating your policies your internal commercial policies to it's it's it's in every country and with this I mean this is what I wanted to bring to the table how important it is that countries that are that have a vision they get together and they and they put it forward in writing in papers in declarations either if it's as the nine plus or it's or if it is in the in the context of the council presidency that Belgium will get in the next six months but it's important that it's out there because then Commission and the European Union can be influenced and can be inspired by this and have already a basis on which to work great thank you Alberto let me just say that the minister I understand has to lead quite shortly a few moments here great so before moving on to our second panelist Lucinda Creighton who's the CEO of Vulcan Consulting and a former minister of state for Europe as most of you will know thank you very much and delighted to be here thank you for the invitation and for the opportunity to exchange some thoughts on on what is a really important topic one that has I suppose been a theme for the Irish government for a very long time now in terms of advancing the digital innovation agenda the digital single market I mean probably for 15 to 20 years now that has been a core theme of pretty much every every government and I suppose the question that that we have to pose and that we have to reflect on is well how do we actually make that a reality and how do we maybe move beyond the the ambition or the the sort of objective and actually become a little bit more effective at implementation and and action and and that's knowing feet that's for sure and when it comes to the D9 when it was founded in 2016 I think that there was a real sense of momentum there was a sense of urgency and I think that Ireland and a number of the other founding member states particularly Sweden were really committed and really motivated and mobilized and I would I would certainly have the feeling that since then the that sense of kind of urgency and commitment has maybe dissipated a little bit so I think for that reason our timing in terms of having a minister firstly who is really committed to this and energized and also approaching Ireland's presidency or a chairmanship of the D9 plus group next year really presents an excellent opportunity I mean if you look at the objectives the original objectives of the D9 group I think they are legitimate I think they are worthy I think we probably everybody in the room and most people would subscribe to them but you know I think that there is scope for greater definition in terms of the purpose and the objectives of the group and I also feel that when you look at the world that we live in and Minister Cleary has already alluded to the fact that things have changed a lot even in those seven years you know the context of the geopolitical challenges that we have faced and that we now face are extraordinary if you think about it we've just lived through a pandemic which catapulted lots of people into the digital world that weren't part of it or were you know detached from it up until a few years ago so it has really accelerated and catalyzed the evolution of our digital agenda if you like and that's just one thing if you look at what has been happening in Ukraine for example and how everything from aid to warfare to communication has changed how hugely influential tech companies have been in the fight for democracy in Ukraine it is extraordinary and we probably don't step back to think about it sufficiently if you look at the implications of the war in Ukraine and the pandemic actually not not not unconnected and how that has shaped the West's view of China and Russia for example the geopolitics around all of that I think it's really interesting it has changed the sense of urgency it has changed the prioritization of the European Union so for example and there you know there are questions that I think the D9 group D9 plus group needs to address when I talk about greater clarity and definition of objectives one of the things that has been a huge team for the European Union for the last four years and for this commission has been digital sovereignty or strategic autonomy they're interlinked or open strategic autonomy whatever way you look at it I think it would be really beneficial for the D9 plus countries to have a clarity of purpose and a clarity of vision in terms of what those concepts actually mean they have changed I think probably even in the last four years when people talked about strategic autonomy a few years ago they were probably thinking in terms more of military strategic autonomy some would say that certain member states were thinking about it in terms of derisking from the United States or maybe introducing a form of protectionism when it comes to US multinational companies particularly tech companies that has evolved I think if you see some of the approach of the European Commission you know the concept of strategic autonomy has become much broader and and more pervasive but also creates opportunities if you look at it from the perspective of open strategic autonomy as opposed to closed or a sort of a tool to to maybe reduce interaction or dependency with the rest of the world so these are concepts that are changing they're evolving and I think it's really important that countries like Ireland have a very clear view of what they mean firstly what are the risks associated with those those terms and those concepts at EU policymaking level but also you know what do we want them to mean and if they're here with us and we have to live with them how do we shape them how do we actually take really concrete steps and I think the D9 plus group is a really obvious way to bring clarity to some of those concepts and to bring clarity in terms of what it is we want to achieve from the digital single market from concepts such as digital sovereignty and so on. I think when you speak to or you listen to the minister to the Spanish government and to the other members of the D9 plus group of member states and they certainly speak clearly and supportively of the need for the digital agenda to deliver on innovation on preserving and enhancing competitiveness at European level but again you know are the policies and the regulations that we are introducing actually achieving those objectives I think they are really important questions that we have to continuously ask ourselves that we're not just a part of a sort of a sausage making process of developing more and more regulation and you know phrasing or clapping ourselves in the back for you know being the best in class when it comes to developing regulation on the on the global stage what does that actually mean you know the the EU is often accused and I was a member of the EU scrutiny committee and the European affairs committee in the Irish parliament for nine years and the biggest criticism at every practically every meeting that we ever held was about gold plating EU regulation so that's that's a that's an Irish identity crisis that we that we have to deal with but and but in terms of of you know the rush to to develop and to develop regulation and to implement regulation are we really fully evaluating the impact of that regulation are we thinking of not just the implications for maybe the five top big tech companies that we might have at the forefront for our minds when we're developing it but are we thinking of the ripple effect for our own indigenous businesses for SMEs and for the ecosystem in Europe I've come from a lunch an American chamber Thanksgiving lunch on the other side of town which the ministry was also attending and I was speaking to somebody with the Finnish background and we were talking about about Nokia and about the huge presence that company had and you know it was a European digital champion and there are many other examples of companies that maybe you know didn't have the opportunity to thrive and grow for whatever reason and I think if we if we really want that digital ecosystem to to survive and thrive every single piece of legislation every single policy decision has to be taken with that lens of looking at what is the impact and how is it going to how is it going to affect competitiveness and the potential for innovation and growth in the European economy and I'm conscious that we have to wrap up but just a final point on the on the D9 plus group because I think it is great that it provides a platform for dialogue and capital to capital engagement and publication of non-papers or declarations that's that's really good but I would love to see a concrete mechanism for it to actually come to life in a more tangible way. I think that the digital nine plus group would really benefit from a secretariat from a presence in Brussels because having a dialogue between the capitals is really important but legislation and regulation comes from the European Commission it is obviously decided through co-decision by the council and the parliament both of which institutions also sit in Brussels so I think it's really important that and I think it's a real opportunity actually for Ireland to start thinking about this in the lead up to Ireland's presidency of the D9 next year as we move into a new commission and a new parliament how can the D9 plus formalize and how can it actually start thinking strategically about having a much greater impact and a much greater influence on EU policymaking and and regulation so that we are fit for purpose in five and 10 and 15 20 years time otherwise I think the big risk is that other regions around the global past is irrespective of how much we believe that we have the golden standard in regulation so a secretariat from the D9 in Brussels teed up perfectly for our final panelist who we'd like certainly like to get both both of our other panels and indeed the minister's view if he has time on that proposal and many other things so thanks uh Lucinda for for that thought-provoking contribution um our final panelist is Alexander Hoffman Hoffman's he's the deputy chief of staff to the secretary of state for digitalization the Belgian in the Belgian government you're very welcome Alexander good afternoon everyone I hope you can hear me perfectly me fine okay great thanks so first of all for for inviting me I'm sorry I couldn't be with you this afternoon but you have Alberto he's a superman I don't know how he does it during the Spanish presidency he's everywhere um first of all yes I like the sound of another secretariat based in in Brussels I will get back to that um I thought of maybe focusing really on the D9 plus as such um in my intervention and I wanted to start with a few observations I've been participating in the D9 plus since I'm in office here so that's 2020 so I've been through a couple of them with mixed feelings honestly it's a very interesting forum institutionally and this has been mentioned before it's a very informal setting there is no structure there is no secretariat there is no rule book there are no rules of procedure so it's very flexible indeed this can be an advantage can also be a disadvantage of course because it's very much let's say chair driven and I think we've seen at least from my experience that there is no real intensive dynam dynamism in the D9 plus as such up until now it's been limited let's say to a meeting that is being organized during the presidency or the chairmanship of the D9 plus but throughout let's say the chairmanship there is little dialogue there is little dialogue in terms of composition we are now indeed the D9 plus counting 12 but I have to say that de facto I would say that we're already 14 because Romania and Slovenia have been invited to participate in the past D9 plus sessions as well Belgium has invited them as well to participate and of course other member states of the EU regularly come knocking on our door to to to discuss membership and there was a very courageous attempt by the the Spanish chairmanship of the D9 plus to try and structure a dialogue around this issue of how do we deal with this there there are no criteria basically a member state sends an email to the mailing list and then we discuss it electronically among the member states but there is not really any standard let's say or a criteria of course originally it's the daisy criteria but I have the feeling that we've maybe lost a little bit track of that perspective in terms of composition what is interesting in the D9 plus of course is that there is a mix with what we call the B9 plus so it's the business federations of the member states and this is a very interesting setting of course we always try to do a mixed composition during the meeting of the chair and I will come back to that as well third observation is in terms of the content basically the chair of the D9 plus has a certain wish list let's say thematically that they want to bring to the table and discuss there is not necessarily a link with for example the telecom council for some issues there may be for others there isn't again very flexible positive maybe also some disadvantages so on the basis of these observations where can we go in the future with the D9 plus I think that's a very valid and pertinent point of discussion can the D9 plus be a real driver of the digital agenda and I think there we are entering into a very interesting momentum the minister referred to it as well during the the Irish chairmanship Belgium as well we will have a focus on future looking what will be the future digital agenda of the EU for the next five years we will also discuss this during our Belgian presidency of the Council of the EU and I'm happy to come back to any questions on the Belgian presidency of the EU afterwards but say so if we really want to have the D9 plus as a driver of the digital agenda I think we have to answer some questions on or related to the observations that I made in terms of do we want to evolve towards a more organized and structured vehicle hence a secretariat hence resources question mark there has been some discussion and this was mentioned a little bit let's say before already by the previous speakers some discussion among some D9 members in terms of a blocking minority indeed I mean if you do the counting this is possible and so it has already been discussed should the D9 plus be a little bit more let's say organized in terms of how do we position ourselves in the council telecom council or other council formations as such question mark we would have to answer some questions about the membership as well again do we looking back at what the minister said as well on terms of the DNA of the D9 plus it's become a little bit mixed already do we want to go back to let's say strict respect of the D9 plus DNA or do we want to evolve towards a more mixed group and let's say follow the line of indeed the member states who have a certain vision in terms of digital files let's open economy etc question mark do we want to have the D9 plus evolve towards having a firmer link with the telecom council for example mathematically of course that's not possible because we cannot have every D9 member organize a chair linked to a D9 sorry linked to a telecom council however where it is possible is this something that we want and then in line with this as well do we want the D9 plus to also be linked to the presidency of the council of the EU in terms of what our belgian approach to the D9 plus is and to to our chairmanship we have made the strategic choice to make the link to the telecom council we've made the strategic choice first of all to have the chairmanship now just before our belgian presidency of the EU and we've also made the strategic decision to hold the meeting in Brussels on the 4th of December the day before the formal telecom council and consultation with the Spanish presidency why it's also simply because we have seen that in the past there has been a very mixed participation in terms of the it is a political body but in terms of ministerial participation it's been very mixed so linking the D9 plus meeting to the formal telecom council I think is a way to improve let's say ministerial participation and I'm very happy that Ireland will even be participating in double let's say so so that's one let's say approach of belgium to our our chairmanship making the bridge to the telecom council also in our evening program we will have a small fireside chat event we will have a walking dinner and all ministers participating in the formal telecom council have been invited this is a way again to bridge the D9 plus and the telecom council our approach is also to try and have a more dynamic participation between the b9 plus and the D9 plus traditionally the b9 plus participates in a mixed discussion with the D9 plus limited to let's say a presentation of a b9 plus statement and then with a Q&A we will be holding breakout sessions where we want to in small format have the D9 plus members discuss with the b9 plus members on the basis of a guiding document and this will be based on the four pillars of the digital decade the digital compass 2030 again linked to what we are preparing already for our belgium presidency of the EU in terms of future of the digital agenda and then lastly but maybe not least is that belgium is preparing council conclusions on the future of the digital agenda to be adopted on the formal council on the 24th sorry 21st of May it seems logical to us that we consult the D9 plus in the drafting of course of the council conclusions besides the usual dynamic that takes place in the telecom council of course so i want to wrap it up here this is our take on on the D9 plus where it stands now and where it could head in the future thank you thank you alexander very straightforward views there which i'm sure will contribute to the the questions and the discussion we'll have so as i mentioned open to questions i just got to have to head unfortunately to know the commitment very briefly that idea the secretariat well let's see we won't take my secretariat but what i will do is i'll share this recording with our D9 plus colleagues to provoke discussion alexander set out a very ambitious schedule but it's one thing that strikes me we're very aligned with the telecoms council but the competitors of the council also meets that week so i'm actually i'm going to be at compash later in the week i did ask crucial to competitiveness as well so i i think we need to probably align it to more councils but um i think descender set us uh really good targets and discussion uh for our presidency and for our chair and i look forward to following on for the extraordinary work that's been done by belgium into uh next year and um we may have one of these discussions again as part of this right thank you thank you thank you thank you master i'm just to i want to acknowledge the huge work that's been done by its managers to try and get the ai legislation over the line you know it's being extraordinary uh commitment and it won't be for the want of effort if it doesn't make it well thanks a lot right thank you thank you um maybe just kick off on that ai legislation um do what did the panel think did will this uh will it get through before uh the cutoff point next year okay but i would like to react on i mean i think the points that alexander made were uh fantastic to have a discussion amongst ourselves because it really much ties to what uh what what you what you also mentioned um we did indeed try to get the group to get that formal kind of status because when we had the term hardship we had a seven requests from different member states that wanted to join the d9 plus and we didn't know how to deal with this request so can can we just get something uh together to you know to formalize how we are going to deal with all this i i think this is very important and the strategic vision um i i have to congratulate the the belgians because uh the fact that they died with a political event as the telecom council that takes political decisions is really a good strategic decision that we need to consider if we want to to do uh to to to to have an impact on on whatever we are doing at european level um and uh and i would like to also now i think with the with the ai act that the reactor your comment on going from ambition to implementation i mean you're totally uh right that we need to do this step is like when you do research and then it goes to the market well you also have this uh a step to to to make sure that you have a business model so in that regard for us we did we are really committed to the regulation but we are also committed to the implementation of the regulation and in this regard we uh already published uh the the law that establishes the sandbox on ai that spain is going to put forward in order to develop implementation guidelines of all the obligations that are applicable to high-risk ai systems um with the experience of particular uh companies that develop ai and uh and then this guidelines that will be put uh that will be finalized by the end of the following year possibly uh will be put at the service of everybody to be able to implement the regulation in a in a clear way not only having you know an arty an obligation that says you need to have a human oversight or you or your system needs to be uh needs to be cyber secure or robust but what does it mean that in practice and then we develop like 100 pages per per obligation that says well tip one you need to do this tip two you need to ensure that your database is structured you don't have uh this type of blank and you have your data representativeness in terms of sources and so on and so forth um but i i believe this is something that you know all member states should get one of those type of of initiatives and put you know you want to have a strategic autonomy what is the practical project that you that you are putting forward in order to uh to deploy this this thinking and i think it's a relevant it's a relevant choice a relevant point that you made listen to anything you want to come back on with any of the other points that have been made but specifically um alexander sort of hinted at possibly getting back to the core of the denign which might involve un-inviting existing members would uh given the way institutions work un-inviting people can be quite difficult you probably need to establish something new um rather than uh shrinking something so alexander i'll come back to you on that how you envisage that but uh listen to you first and any other reactions you have to it could become a process of natural nutrition you know i mean if you um if you start to um if you start to sort of agree on common principles of membership then you know it may become a natural process in a sense um but you may have perhaps members that are not um you know not fully committed um i think i mean i think it comes back to when you start to really define what it is you're for you know what it is you want to achieve what are the what are the objectives um what are the policy priorities you know what do you want to see the next european commission actually doing um and you know if if a cohort of member states start to think in that way and actually start to formalize it um you know not everybody's going to agree you know that's that's just the way it works um um but there has to be a core group who have that level of commitment and i i think it's not apparent yet um that that that that exists we'll be the first to brexit the d9 texas i won't put you on the spot we're on the record um alexander just following on from that that um you were maybe a little bit downbeat about the efficacy in recent times um how do you envisage you know if it was to shrink do you agree with lucinda that it would be a process of natural attrition do you think that some of the more committed members have to create something separate i think well first of all it's everybody will realize that it's politically very difficult for ministers to say no to member states requesting entry so this is already always a very delicate balancing act let's say the way to deal with this is is basically the right approach has been taken by by spain in the terms of trying to formalize to some extent but not over formalizing as well as well we want of course the d9 plus to remain a flexible group um and then you come into systems of okay you have founding members and then you have observer status etc i think if you push it too far then it becomes a bit too complicated as well we wanted to remain a flexible group but i think only by um standardizing some issues by having a common agreement but in a somewhat more formal way can you create um um to put it like that to sort of like a barrier around the group um without excluding of course the possibility of interaction with a wider group and i think that's what we tried to do with making the bridge to all of the 27 telecom ministers in in our case to have them involved as well in the d9 dynamic allow for b9 plus members to interact also with the 27 um ministers of the telecom council um but i think going so far as to really create an institutional uh context or format that's probably taking it a little bit too far okay okay uh in terms of all you mentioned the sort of um the use regulatory power globally you know i was thinking when you were speaking about how much things have changed in the minister since 2016 you know 2016 it was the the the expression americans innovate europeans regulate and chinese emulate um or in or emulate or i think was was the term uh that's clearly changing in terms of china these days i i do wonder if europe in the services sector is not as influential as it has been in the goods sector internationally trading goods just any any sort of the us never adopted a gdpr for example um you know is is is europe's capacity to regulate ai with chinese going as fast as they are with so much happening in the united states obviously is europe either of you yeah i mean i i think this is a fundamental question because i think that we can be we can be guilty in europe of believing our own propaganda and really believing that we are setting standards for the rest of the world i remember there was a big focus on california because some some governor probably not a governor some uh some elected official in california suggested that they were going to you know take gdp or and sort of copy it for about them and that was a huge story in the guardian in political everywhere and then actually it didn't happen we never heard about that you know so like there's a there's a there's a little bit of i think of europeans getting a bit carried away with our regulatory might and actually i think where we're really missing a trick is because where there where there really is the capacity for regulatory might is if we do it on a transatlantic basis um when europe and i understand and i appreciate particularly you know with the political blocks shall we say that we have witnessed in the us in the in the last eight to ten years it hasn't always been easy um but you know sort of powering ahead and and and not at least trying and endeavoring to reach common ground with the us when it comes to uh regulatory standards is a huge error in my view um because if the eu and the us have a commonality not on everything we're never going to be entirely aligned um we're not going to achieve a harmonized transatlantic regulatory framework on most things but if we have you know close to common standards on on lots of things ai is a great example i mean what is the point in a sense of europe trying to regulate ai if we don't do it at least with an attempt and effort to um to reflect um the other side of the atlantic particularly given that big players are us multinationals let's be honest so um i think that they're they're at the ttc under the biden administration you know again is is the right approach in terms of aspiration but frankly i was on a on a webinar with another think tank a transatlantic think tank a couple of weeks ago after the ttc with a lot of people who were really involved including people from the us administration it was so downbeat and and and from from brosles as well and it was so downbeat because it's really not making a huge amount of progress that is so shortsighted from our from our point of view it is so shortsighted the eu and the united states need a bit of a wake-up call because if we don't set the standards then you know china and and others will will will fill the vacuum right i'm sure people know with the trade and cooperation account yeah uh it's that sort of institutional framework to the us and the eu to deal with these sort of trade technology issues uh so interesting to hear that what you're hearing is that it's it's it's quite downbeat in terms of functionality and success of of the council i would like to react to that because a for example brazil is going to adopt the data protection regulation which is very much like the gdpr there is a lot of examples out there in the world that are copying the standards that we're putting on data protection i believe this is this is uh i hope maybe i don't believe but i hope this is going to be happening as well with the ai but we have what we have seen around the world china is also regulating on ai but i mean for the objectives of the of the of the party uh you know but there is regulation out there uh the us just published that exactly before there is not legislation as such but it it has some kind of uh of night on on on companies developing ai obligations are threatening for example strategies on on transparency and documentation um which is important there is there any powers the different offices like the trade commission of the us and and others to act on competition on on on data privacy for example as well in many aspects if you read their executive order many of the aspects that are reflected that are also you know somehow taken uh or very much aligned with with what we have in europe so i believe that is that is um i do have to have a bit of controversy here no but that that that i believe that we do have um we do have this this kind of uh let's say might over over other over others uh setting the standards because uh we've been talking about regulating ai since 2019 in the european union and suddenly we are going to bletchley to bletchley park and then everyone is talking about governing ai regulating ai the uk the us china the same similar narratives that they are putting forward so so it seems that i don't know we left the way somehow to to to certain extent as well that doesn't mean that there is um yeah sorry alexander finish your point i alexander i see see what it means we'll come to you next and and just uh another thing is that uh so we also have the the strange dichotomy as well um that or either we regulate or we are competitive and i believe we can be both because uh what we have seen with with some of the regulation is that you know privacy safety security that's a good business so that you can create a business out of out of those values and out of those uh uh let's say obligations that are put on our on our economy and our society that portability right for example from gdpr gave rise to personal information management system which is a business model in itself um i believe that the digital markets act will give right to many startups entering into markets that were before controlled by gatekeepers like uh uh like the big tech so i believe there is also potential for competitiveness with that coming from the from the regulation yeah i think it's always important to say that that good regulation can actually be pro competition rather than exclusively burdensome for businesses alexander thank you no i just want to pick up pick up um the the interesting discussion i think in the comparison between ai and and gdpr and the different approaches to it i i'm also always a bit cautious in in comparing um let's say the potential of the eu in both domains because it's true gdpr has had let's say cross border effects beyond the eu um but i think we we have to be careful in in in um approaching both um let's say uh issues regulating ai is regulating the use of a technology whereas the gdpr is regulating uh let's say basic components of any type of uh technology um and of course the the competition element is much stronger in in the ai file now the let's say the trickle effect of the gdpr is very interesting but it has been quite natural uh which is very interesting i don't know to which extent for the ai it's going to be that natural so i think it's going to need a little push and i think there um the the the focus on governance and global governance in terms of ai is going to be quite crucial and this is something that we want to highlight as well during uh our presidency it's where we want to pick up the ball where um spain will will hopefully end uh the the trilog of the ai act we want to go beyond the ai act and look at the different issues that are being discussed in terms of governance of ai be it the oscd the g20 the g20 the g7 united nations everybody is setting up some kind of governance mechanisms in terms of ai and you don't have that in the gdpr uh i think it's good because it means there is a let's say a natural flow that's being created in terms of uh regular sorry in terms of having a dialogue on on standards of ai something that is missing in gdpr but didn't really seem that necessary because there was kind of like a natural flow or overflow let's say in terms of um the point that's made on implementation uh rather than regulation this is um something that my secretary of state feels quite strongly about and it will also be let's say a red line through our presidency because we do feel that again being in a momentum uh towards the new european commission and new european parliament maybe the council could send a message that with the digital let's say avalanche that we've had in the past years we really have to get the governance and the implementation and the execution right and this is going to be a struggle for quite a number of member states not to mention uh small member states again maybe a role for the d9 plus here and not to mention for states which have quite complex institutional mechanisms and systems like uh belgium so i think this is something that we should think carefully about and where we should try and create synergies between all of the governance systems that have been pushed forward to be a true dsa dma data act dga whatever you have i think this is going to be a crucial debate so a little bit more focus on the implementation maybe a little bit less focus on the regulation even though we all are quite conscious of the fact that um i'm sure that the next european commission already has or will have a couple of files in their drawers that they're going to take out quite soon and in terms of ai specifically i think it's going to be interesting to see whether we will now have a general regulatory framework but will we head towards a more sectoral approach also in terms of regulation of ai okay thank you we've hit 345 um i'm ruthless about ending on time we did start a little bit late uh so i'll entertain any final point or comment by either any of the panelists or anyone here or online if not going going gone okay we're going to conclude at that point i'd like to thank the panelists uh for a lot of uh of detail in their presentation um i hope it's added to your body of understanding about the whole uh of all of these issues so thanks for our panel thanks to the minister and thanks to everyone who attended both in person and online thank you thank you