 On behalf of the United States Institute of Peace, we are pleased to welcome everyone to this important discussion on economic security and stability in Pakistan and South Asia, with His Excellency, Dr. Shahqad Turin, Pakistan's Federal Minister of Finance and Revenue Affairs. The minister's visit to Washington comes at a critical moment when Pakistan and South Asia are rethinking many of their political, security and economic priorities, and when the defining feature of the U.S.-Pakistan relationship is no longer the war in Afghanistan. It is within this context and knowing the direct link between sustainable economic development, stability, peace and security that makes today's conversation so timely. During the next hour, we look forward to reflecting on a number of key issues, including the tough choices that Pakistan may need to take to restructure the economy that potentially disruptive impact of the sharp rise in global prices of core commodities and the possible impact of economic collapse in Afghanistan. We also look forward to reflecting on China's continued influence in Pakistan's economic development and, most particularly, the impact of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor on the partnership with the U.S. Mr. Minister, we are honored and delighted that you are here with us today. We note with appreciation your distinguished career in banking and your role as the minister of finance from 28 to 2010, when your decisive leadership helped to stabilize Pakistan's economy during the 28 financial crisis. We are also delighted to have Dr. Peter Lavoie, former National Security Council senior director for South Asia, here with us to moderate a conversation with his Excellency, the minister, and to take questions from our virtual audience. We invite everyone to share your questions via the chat function on our website, and we welcome you to follow discussion on Twitter using the hashtag at USIP Pakistan. Gentlemen. Thank you very much. Minister Terine, thank you very much for joining us. I know you're in Washington at a very busy time, and it's a real honor that you could take this time out of your schedule to join us and talk about Pakistan's economic future. I have to say that I lived in Pakistan 30 years ago. It was one of the most wonderful experiences of my life. And at the time, I realized Pakistan had so much economic potential, a big population, a young population. The population has grown bigger. It's grown younger. But yet the potential has not really been taken advantage of. Can you tell us what you are doing? And under the Imran Khan PTI government, what your team is doing to take advantage of the opportunities that you have in Pakistan to create sustainable, inclusive growth in the country? Thank you, Peter. Let me take you back a few years, a few decades. Pakistan and US has had very long association with each other. I mean, we had one time, we were also members of Seattle and Cento, and clearly one of the friends of the United States of America, which we continued over a period of time. In the 60s, Pakistan's economy was the fourth largest economy in Asia. And then we got hit by a nationalization of assets by Zulwakar Ali Bhutto in 1973. And then we entered an Akhwan war in 1979. These two events disrupted our economic growth. We lost track. We then, you know, we had military dictatorship for 11 years. And then, you know, the civilians who came actually did not do justice to the economy of Pakistan. Now that, you know, we are here, Imran Khan took over an economy which was struggling in 2018 with a current account deficit of $20 billion, large fiscal deficit, and clearly not sustainable. So he had to go into a very tough IMF program, and he was doing fine. He took very difficult political decisions on currency devaluation, increase in discount trade, increase in utility prices, all politically unpopular actions. As we were coming out rather consolidating and, you know, thinking that a year after we will start growing happened COVID. And COVID was handled rather well by Imran Khan and his team. I think, you know, our performance in terms of infections and deaths far less by standards countries around us. So Imran Khan, while being in COVID, kept investing in two productive sectors like agriculture, industry, and housing. So last year, this fiscal year which ended in June, Pakistan rebounded from a negative half a percent growth rate year before to around four percent growth rate, we believe it's four and a half percent. So five percent turn around, five percent of B-shape turn around. Now what we have done is that we have said that I think we have consolidated our economy. Now we've got to grow because we have 60 percent of our population on the age of 30. They need jobs. So we have taken some steps, you know, to revitalize agriculture, industry, exports, housing. And we believe that this year we are going to grow by five percent. The good thing is that we probably are growing faster than five percent. But that also means that we got to make sure that we don't overheat. So Pakistan today is not only growing, but we have also decided, Peter, that we are not going to leave the underprivileged by the wayside. I think the underprivileged have been waiting for the trickle-down effect for too long. And because our growth has been cyclical and it's not been sustainable over a period of time, so trickle-down has never reached the bottom, the rung of our society. So we are going after the bottom-up approach as well, like Joe Biden, if the United States needs bottom-up, I mean Pakistan certainly does as well. So that will help Pakistan grow, will have inclusive and sustainable growth over a period of time. That is the way we are moving. Thank you. And could you talk a little bit more about what the government is doing to help the poorer part of the population gain access to resources to allow them to grow? You see, we were always dependent on these banks, large commercial banks to reach to the bottom echelons of our society. And we all know I've been a banker for 46 years now. It is not in their DNA. You force them, they will do some kind of short covering, window dressing as you call it. But actually, they will never reach. But there are other institutions, we do it for living. Microfinance banks, microfinance NGOs. And in Pakistan, we have some great leaders like Shoaib Sultan. And those are the people who have been doing this for 30, 40 years. And the recovery rates have been around 98% to 99%. So what I did was I asked the large banks to wholesale the funds to these NGOs, these microfinance banks, and told them to go and retail this. So what are they doing? This is what your question is. Number one, they are going to go to the small agriculture, people with 12 and a half acres of land. They'll give them interest-free loans for every crop, 150,000 rupees. There are two crops. They'll give 200,000 for mechanization. They'll go to people in the urban areas, give them half a million rupees, up to half a million interest-free loan to do their business. They'll give them money for their houses. They'll give health cards, insurance, and also technical training for one person. Now, this is going to be a complete package for around four million households over the next few years. So I think that is pretty significant. That would be remarkable. And I think the population, I'm sure there are Pakistanis that are watching this right now from their homes and will certainly appreciate that. Now, you're here in Washington, D.C. at a very important week. This is the annual meetings of the World Bank and IMF. And as you mentioned, sir, under the Imran Khan government, negotiations with the IMF have resumed. And I think the sixth tranche of support might be in the offing. Could you describe what your mission is here and what you hope to bring home from your visit to with the IMF? I think concluding the sixth tranche with the IMF is the most important part of my visit. I mean, I could have done the IMF meetings and World Bank meetings virtually. But I've just come over here because I think we have completed the technical level discussions. And the final, of course, the closure is going to be now talking over with the seniors at the IMF, including the managing director. So I believe that I think progress we have made today is pretty encouraging. And as we say, inshallah, I see this happening now on this visit. Inshallah. If I could also talk about a priority that the Prime Minister Imran Khan has announced. He talked about Pakistan being too long focused on strategic or security issues, geo-security. And it's trying to pivot Pakistan's role in the region and the world to one focusing on geo-economics. Could you explain what's behind that? What is happening behind the scenes to transition Pakistan to a vibrant, connected economy? And what should we begin to see in terms of evidence of that process working? I think we have to understand that Pakistan at a lot of time in the past, we're looking through the present of security. And I think what the Prime Minister is saying that I think we have to look through the present of the economic welfare of our people. And when you talk about this kind of change in focus means everything changes in terms of your foreign policy, economic policies in terms of your internal security and whatever else. And I think this is what we are doing, but we have an issue, and our issue is India. And India clearly is a bigger country, it's part of this sark kind of economic block we have. And we probably are the chairs of sark, but they would not visit us. So I think that is one area which we have to solve our relationship with India. Otherwise, I think our relationship with all our neighbors is good and getting better. Well, we're looking at South Asia for so long have been frustrated to see that South Asia is probably the least economically integrated region of the world. And there is an irony, you have the world's fastest growing big economy in India, which this year should experience somewhere between 9.5 and 10% economic growth. And international investors are clamoring to get into that market. And yet, its trade and investment with other countries in the region is very limited. Are there opportunities you think that we could see in the next year or two of increased trade between Pakistan and India, for example? I think there is a fundamental issue between India and Pakistan, and that issue is Kashmir. The fact is that we think it's a disputed territory and obviously security council and several resolutions have said that. But somehow the other, this government of India does not accept that. And they just, I think they unilaterally, they cancel all the privileges given to the Kashmiris. So we do not agree with that. The very fact is our trade is suffering, our economic, obviously cooperation with India is suffering. But I think the Imran Khan has offered so many times to India. If they take one step, we'll take two steps. My own sense is through this forum, I'll once again request the government of India to just basically sit back and say that, yes, I think we have to cooperate. I can tell you I've been a city banker. I've got very, very good Indian friends. And when we used to sit together, I think we used to always talk about that there's just a border. I mean, both sides of the border, I mean, people live the same way as they live in India or Pakistan. So my own sense is I think at the political level, I think we got to just really give some space to the economics and the welfare of the people of both the countries. Again, inshallah, inshallah. Could I ask you about the other side of Pakistan, your other border? You have a situation in Afghanistan where the US forces after fighting America's longest war have finally withdrawn completely. You have the Taliban taking power, consolidating power. But at the same time, there is an emerging horrendous humanitarian and economic crisis. How will that affect Pakistan? I mean, that has to spill over the borders 360 degrees around Afghanistan. And as you mentioned before, Pakistan dealt with conflict and the fallout of conflict in Afghanistan before. How do you anticipate the impact on Pakistan today? I think the situation on the ground is, I would say, pretty dangerous. The Taliban's are in control, whether we like it or not. I think the whole world is saying the Taliban must have an inclusive government, a tolerant government. This is not only what the United States of America is saying, but this is what Pakistan is saying and every neighbor is saying. So we are trying that. I think we are trying our bit. I think there have been a meeting in Doha between the US delegation and the Taliban's now. I think the noises are the right kind of noises. But we must understand that the Taliban's probably running out of cash. And by end of this year, if the world does not get together to support them on humanitarian grounds at least, then there could be a complete chaos and there could be a situation where maybe even the Taliban's may not be able to control. So what can happen is it will spill over into Pakistan, it will spill over all over the world. They will escape, they will go and they will try to just reach Europe, they will reach whatever country they can because if they are not getting two meals in their home country, they will do whatever they have to. So my own request to the world would be that they see this, that something has happened. They're making early noises of cooperating with the world. They're making early noises of being a responsible country. So I think this is when we should say yes. I think we let's help them step by step and encourage them as they improve their behavior or demonstrate their behavior. So Pakistan believes that if the situation in Afghanistan deteriorates, we will directly get affected. I think my former colleagues in the U.S. government, or I used to work, my colleagues that are still in the U.S. government are still holding out very sort of important criteria for that financial support to the Taliban government, that the Taliban meet certain requirements on assuring the United States and other countries that they won't foster terrorist groups anymore, that they won't allow terrorist attacks to spill across their borders, that they'll respect the human rights of all Afghan citizens and particularly allow girls to go to school and be treated fairly like regular, like boys. These are important issues for Pakistan as well. So how do you, what's your advice for to your own government and to others to balance those foreign policy needs and requirements that we have toward Afghanistan, but at the same time recognizing they need money to deal, to feed their population at this critical time? You know, Pakistan, like any other country, as I said, wants an inclusive government to start with, I think, which means they cannot just Pashtuns, I mean, there should be Tajiks, Hazarites, Uzbeks, and not only that, you know, they've already included them in the second rung of their government. We need to see those faces in the senior echelons of their government. And then, as they have promised now, that they will basically also respect the human rights of the women and, you know, all citizens, we want a demonstration of that. And also, we want to see that they, all the pledges they've been making, that there will be no terrorism from the Akhwan territory, whether it is Pakistan, because we have Taliban, Pakistan, you know, TTP, which basically launches attacks into Pakistan. We want those things to be stopped. So similarly, if we believe there's a good behavior, we'll probably, I think, the world should recognize that. But as of now, the first thing is we should understand that they've made some promises and they've made some moves. So let's at least look after their basic needs of food and some security, et cetera. I think we should basically start, you know, moving, you know, forward step by step. And unless the world does not do that, and pretty quickly, you could see some major disaster over there. Thank you for that. You mentioned TTP, Tariq-e-Taliban, Pakistan. And we've seen actually a spike in attacks in Pakistan since the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Afghanistan and the victory of the Taliban in Afghanistan. I'm now working for a private company and international investors look first and foremost at the safety and security of the country that they would invest in, secure and safe conditions. I think international investors are now looking at Pakistan with a little bit of concern that is there a new trend where TTP will be more prominent once as it was about a decade ago? You're absolutely right. What has happened is that, you know, there are certain people who just believe in jihad, even in Pakistan. And so they've been lying dormant. But the very fact is they've seen Taliban, you know, actually succeed in Afghanistan. And they've just been emboldened, you know, and they just believe that, well, somehow the other jihad has won, which is what we are trying to now do is, you know, try to move in and just put the senior people, you know, in the center, kill this kind of, you know, spike, you know, from the TTP and really just bring this in these emotions down. But it's bound to happen because they're pushing both sides of the border, you know. So, I think, but we are on top of it. Pakistan is, as of now, you know that we have fenced the entire border. You know, there's a small piece, you know, near Chaman, which is not fenced. Otherwise, all fenced. We are controlling the traffic to and fro from Afghanistan, making sure that we are not getting the miscreants we used to get before. So, we understand that and our military and security forces are taking, you know, the necessary action. Well, Minister, you have to forgive me. I think I'm treating you more like the foreign minister than the finance minister. But thank you for indulging us with those thoughtful responses. Going back to your area of focus and expertise, I noticed that in your past, you were a banker. You took a number of, took leadership positions in a number of banks and were extremely successful. For example, the big Habib Bank, which was faltering when you took over and you turned it into a very profitable concern. Those practices worked well for you in the financial world and in the private sector. How are you taking those practices in your approach to the Pakistan government, to institute reforms in your country? You know, Pakistan's government used to be an employer of choice in the 60s. 50s and 60s, people used to, you know, want to join government of Pakistan. When I was growing up, my father once took me to a friend of his who was a bureaucrat and who was deputy commissioner. And he said, this is what I want you to do because the bureaucracy had merit. They used to have the empowerment and they used to perform. Over the years, the political, I would say, leadership has destroyed that, you know, fabric of bureaucracy and we, the government of Pakistan, no longer employer of choice. We basically have interference. We do not allow them, you know, kind of freedom and our compensation and others really, they're not up to the mark. So what I bring to the party is I've told the prime minister that we need to just reform the entire human resource aside of the government, which means we got to bring in meritocracy, pay for performance, and of course all this merit in promotions as well. And the compensation by itself must be benchmarked against the market. You know, we know that countries like Singapore, you know, New Zealand and some Scandinavian countries, the benchmark, you know, their bureaucracies against, you know, so that's what I'm trying to bring. But myself, what I'm trying to do is bringing in private sector people in key positions in the ministries where, you know, the skill set is not there. And we will then basically have a kind of combination of the bureaucracy which understands, you know, the government but also private sector which understands the market. So bring in the market efficiencies. So this we have already started as a matter of fact in my tax regime, a department which is a little bit of revenues. There's a committee which has 50-50, you know, 12 people committee, six from private sector, six from the government. That's how we are going to start. And my discussion with World Bank is, I've said, please help me put some of these good people in almost all the major, you know, ministries and they have agreed. Well, that would be remarkable. I know, again, international investors, I think, have been frustrated with Pakistan. They have to deal with ministerial fiefdoms rather than integrated entities that appreciate market mechanisms. And I think there's a real opportunity there. We came from an event at the U.S.-Pakistan Business Council. I think there are only about two dozen companies that are members of that. It's really an appallingly low number of American potential investors in Pakistan. That number probably should be two or three or four times as many. Are you hopeful that if you're able to implement these reforms you'll improve the ease of doing business and be able to attract more companies to invest in Pakistan? Peter, you know, what you have to do is basically go to these companies who are in Pakistan. And I go to them now on a quarterly basis. You ask them what your problems are. They resolve their problems. They bring in more investment. And the other companies who are not in Pakistan will see what is happening and they'll come, you know, and join you. So it's like, you know, the pigeons, they come one at a time. And frankly speaking, you know, it takes time. And so we, as Pakistan, also had, you know, this issue of terrorism. So foreign investors have been shy of going to Pakistan because of now that, you know, we have security under control and we have a progressive, you know, government. My own sense is if we take care of the problems of the foreign investors or all investors in Pakistan, you will see that, you know, the number of companies going to Pakistan will increase. I think you're right, sir. I think you look at Pakistan. It's the fifth largest economy in the world, fifth largest population. Sorry, fifth largest population in the world. I wish we were fifth largest. I know. I know. We need to work on that. Yeah. And it's also one of the most youthful populations. I think the average, the median age is 23 or 24. So you have a demographic dividend that if you could take advantage of this, there's a huge market that has the potential for rising living standards, increased purchasing power. All companies would like to take part in that market and contribute to it. So I think, you know, I wish you success in improving the ease of doing business and, you know, appreciate the Prime Minister's efforts to try to market Pakistan, the geoeconomics as a growing concern and growing opportunity for investment. But I think I have to say that the world community, the international investors, need to see a little bit more tangible process on reforms, progress, and to see that more clearly communicated. And I think opportunities like this, where you can come out and talk to more investors are always good. Hopefully, with COVID now moving behind us, hopefully, there'll be more opportunities like that, too. Yeah. I mean, if you see that, you know, this year, the World Bank has not come up with that index. But last year, Pakistan jumped around 28 places in ease of doing business. But also now, I think the Prime Minister is now taking charge of this thing himself. So he's going to have, you know, the Board of Investment reside in the Prime Minister's office, reporting directly to him. And PM is going to take, you know, these meetings twice, twice a month. Why? Because investors have met him, whether they are, you know, German, American, Chinese and whoever. And they said exactly what you said that, you know, we don't see, you know, on the ground the action which you promised. So implementation leaves much to be desired. So we will make sure now that the special economic zones and the problems of the foreign investors, they are, you know, given for priority. And in the economic zones, we like to create an environment, you know, which is akin to their own country, which means the same kind of financial system, legal system, you know, labor laws, etc. And those zones will become autonomous. We will not have to depend on 16 different, you know, departments. So I think this is a move in the right direction. It'll take a little time. But my own sense is that what we will do is we'll try on four to six special economic zones within the next 12 months. And if they succeed, then we're going to multiply. Well, good luck with that. I think that's very important in the world. International investors are going to be looking closely. I know our company is. I see we have one question from the audience, and I encourage all audience members to send in their questions. Have you agreed to IMF terms on increasing electricity and gas prices, as well as increasing tax rates without real growth in GDP and per capita income? Well, our GDP is growing, our per capita is also growing. The very fact is that you see when the IMF talks about, you know, the increasing tariffs, we believe that if you increase tariffs, you know, without, you know, structural changes, it'll only increase inflation. It's going to make your industry uncompetitive. But we also see their point of view. So what we have done is we have just done some technical discussions with them, and we will increase, you know, these tariffs in a gradual manner. Thereby, it does not increase inflation, you know, a whole lot. But as the economy will grow, we have a problem on the power side that we have excess in our capacity, which I think previous governments, you know, built and we have to pay for the capacity payments. So without, you know, getting the economic benefit, we are making those payments. So as the economy grows, it'll soak up that additional and we also have to improve the efficiency of these public sector companies, which is distribution company, and of course, you know, the power generation companies, they are in the public sector. So I think all that is being successfully negotiated with the IMF. So there is no question of that this stagnant, you know, GDP, you know, per capita growth, because this year, we will be growing at around 5 percent. That's good. I think the whole world experienced so much loss, economic loss, during COVID. And it hit the people that are closest to the subsistence level hardest, including Pakistanis, and it's good to come out of that. And with the programs that you've talked about, aiding those that are most in need. Part of the economic reforms that I think your country is dealing with is now trying to speed up privatization. As you know from your own experience, and you've been in public sector companies and private companies, they have two different cultures. And in today's world, it's very hard to see a country succeed if it relies too much on public sector companies. Can you talk about the privatization priority in Pakistan? Should we expect other big companies to become privatized? And will that create benefits for your economy? Yeah, privatization is, you see, we have around 85 companies. And there are only 15 of them. They have losses of 1% of a GDP. And this is really unacceptable. It's not a question of that we are losing 1% of a GDP. It's a question of that we could have had 2% of a GDP. So it's a 3% turnaround. I gave you the example of Habib Bank used to lose 10 billion rupees a year and now makes 35 billion rupees of profit a year. So just a four times turnaround in a matter of 20 years. So the fact is that we could do the same with these companies, which are airlines, railways, steel mill, electricity distribution companies, etc. So we, I am a firm believer that in developing countries, government has no business doing business. So we have to privatize them. Now the challenges are that their management reside in ministries. The ministry would not let go the power of, you know, not having them. So we have to first disassociate them from the ministries, bring them under a structure where the professional, you know, a group of people, you know, board of directors looks after them. And they actually not only, you know, stabilize them, but also privatize them. And this will now, this process has started. And hopefully you will see the major progress in the next three to five years. That would be, that would be good to see. And again, international investors, I think, are looking forward to that. If I could raise a tough issue, media has reported that there are 700 Pakistanis that have been named in the Pandora papers of taking wealth and putting it offshore. And this is at a tough time when Pakistan needs that revenue, taxable revenue to drive some of the economic reforms and policies that you're talking about. How can the Imran Khan government, which is so high on anti-corruption measures, how will it deal with this as I understand there's an investigation ongoing? Well, there's a committee which basically will make sure that each one of those 700 people, whatever they have done, if they have this stashed money just over taxes, it will go to the federal bearer of, you know, revenues. If they have just done some money laundering, it will go to the federal investigation authority. And if they have done something, you know, which is some corruption, it will go to National Accountability Bureau. And nobody is going to be spared. I think he has made it clear in the cabinet that whoever has done anything wrong, you know, whoever has done nothing wrong doesn't have to fear. But somebody who has done something wrong will have to, you know, face the consequences. So we will do that. As a matter of fact, I think that process is already started. Good. That will be good to see that accountability. You're in the United States. We in the United States have a bit of an obsession with China these days. China has emerged as the pure competitor to the United States. And the U.S. has really reoriented its foreign and defense policy to focus on the competition with China in what the U.S. officials call keeping a free and open Indo-Pacific region. At the same time, Pakistan has improved its relationship with China, which started back in the 1960s, but it's become very, very close. China is a big investor in Pakistan today. Are you concerned that the growing geopolitical competition between the U.S. and other countries on one hand and China on the other hand will create fallout for Pakistan or other countries in Asia? As far as Pakistan is concerned, our view is very, very clear. Our strategy is very clear. We want to be friends with everybody. We want to be friends with China. We want to be friends with United States of America. We have been in major strategic partnership with the United States for the past many, many decades. So I think our friendship with China is not going to just affect our relationship with the United States and we believe that we can work with both the powers equally. China has helped us in putting up this infrastructure for us and they spend a few billion dollars over here and we value that. But that does not mean that we'll become China-centric. I think this is what people have been thinking that we will. We are open. We want to be doing business with not only China but United States, Europe, you know, kind of Japan and Korea, everybody else. So we are an open country. So I don't think there should be any misconception that we will, you know, kind of tilt towards one power or the other. You mentioned China's infrastructure investment in Pakistan. Obviously, that's part of a broader program that China initiated many years ago called the Belt and Road Initiative and in Pakistan it's the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, which is actually the biggest part of the Belt and Road Initiative. But this program has come under a lot of criticism or created a lot of controversy. On the one hand, the Chinese are bringing much needed infrastructure to developing countries like Pakistan. On the other hand, they're often strings attached, they're often environmental practices that might not have the highest standards or labor practices that might not be as sensitive to local popular needs. And then sometimes there are financial implications that the loans that countries have to undertake to get this infrastructure create distress ultimately and impact the economy. Can you describe Pakistan's experience with CPAC and how you're able to navigate these challenges and come out ahead? You know, we had a need, we had a need that we had to build some infrastructure if we had to attract foreign investors and even our own investors. And we went to China and China said okay we are going to give you this kind of money whether it's power generation or roads or railway and other infrastructure. So they provided the money we actually have undertaken some projects. And then Pakistan was supposed to have these economic, you know, special economic zones which would have taken advantage of these, you know, infrastructure, you know, kind of projects and then, you know, generated economic activity. Now I think China has done its bit and I think our process is very competitive. We have, you know, what we call, you know, the competitive rules, PEPRA rules and through which we just actually give, you know, the different contracts and so they are all above board. It's us who really did not create the environment from the private sector to take advantage of this, you know. So we are lagging behind, you know, you know, then the Chinese came in and they're very efficient. They just put up the infrastructure. We were supposed to take advantage of that. So we are suffering a little bit, you know, because of that, that, you know, capacity is there and we just do not have the business to support that. It is our problem, it's not their problem. So I think, you know, they have done their bit and we are thankful to them because I think if they are putting 30-40 billion dollars, no other country was willing to do that, you know, when we wanted it. So that does not mean, you know, that we should start blaming them because of our own shortcomings. I think that's fair. I've got to tell you a funny story. When I worked in the U.S. government, I was authorized to reach out to China in Pakistan. We met with the Chinese ambassador in Pakistan. This was at the outset of CPAC and offered for American companies to take part and jointly work on these infrastructure projects where you have bringing some of the state-of-the-art technology and capital from U.S. companies to match maybe the areas where the Chinese infrastructure development was weaker. But I think it was a real missed opportunity. The Chinese said no, no thank you. And I think they anticipated that things were going to get a little more competitive with the United States, especially in Pakistan. But I think that was a missed opportunity for Pakistan. If you could have Chinese companies and American companies working together with Pakistani companies for development projects, it really would have been, I think, some remarkable outcomes. But I think Peter, we did. There are, you know, we just in the kind of electricity generating companies. Chinese companies went in and collaborated with GE, the GE, you know, kind of turbines, which were used in a big way. You know, and I know that hundreds of millions of dollars, you know, kind of, you know, joint ventures between the Chinese companies, the Pakistani, you know, the local entrepreneur and the Chinese and the U.S. company. So there were, I mean, some of these collaborations, my own senses that, I mean, we could, there could have been more. But there were some and some large ones. We see another question from the audience that Pakistan, whoops, it just moved, Pakistan remains on the Fatif gray list, which means that Pakistan is not eligible for certain kinds of assistance that otherwise it would get and potentially subject to sanctions. And the many Americans and people from other countries believe that Pakistan is not done enough to counter terrorism and to support state sanctioned terrorism to deserve to get off that gray list. And some would argue that Pakistan should be punished more. Can you talk about the steps that are being taken for Pakistan to get off the Fatif gray list? And are you hopeful that those steps will be appreciated? I think there were 27 conditions. And out of the 27, Pakistan met 26. One is half met. Any other country, we should have met, you know, 26 out of 27, you know, kind of conditions would have been, you know, off the gray list long ago. Pakistan is being, I was punished by some some kind of countries for different reasons, not economic reasons. And frankly speaking, it's the same mantra that, you know, basically Pakistan is a terrorist state. Pakistan, you know, encourages terrorism. A country which has lost 80,000 people because of terrorism. A country which has lost $150 billion of its economy because of terrorism. And the country which has, you know, suffered for 40 years, I mean, 50 years, sorry, 40 years, 79 to now, 21. I mean, you know, we have been blamed for this. So I think we all know, sir, what is the agenda of some of the people, you know, who are putting us in that spot. But 26 out of 27, you know, kind of conditions have been bet by Pakistan. So you cannot just say that we have not made an effort, an earnest effort. Well, I have to say, sir, that my wife sets about 30 or 40 conditions for me every day. And if I don't get 100%, I'm also on the gray list. Sometimes you need to achieve 100%. I'd like to ask you maybe to reflect personally on what it's like to work in the government. I've gone the other direction. I spent my career working in the government. I've come to the private sector. I'm going to say I really like it. I mean, I enjoyed, I loved working in the government. But the private sector, there's a lot more clarity. There's a lot more market conditions, are observable, there's less ambiguity. And you know, you know, rewards and punishments are or penalties are very clear. The government is very murky. There are political motivations, bureaucrats, try to protect turf as much as accomplishing objectives. How are you navigating that space? It's a challenge. Let me tell you what, my motivation is different. My motivation is I basically done, I had a very successful private sector career. City bank and probably some of these banks. My father was one of those people who worked for the independence of this country. He was a doctor. And I believe now that, you know, my children married, I have to, some do whatever I can to fix this country. And unless I just don't join the government, unless I just don't work with the government, I will not be able to do that. So I have a great leader because she's also a personal friend. He said, why don't you come and help me? I have said, absolutely. And let me tell you what, no amount of hurdles will stop us making Pakistan economically great again. One of the top countries in Asia first and then in the world. So in our lifetime, if you can make Pakistan one of the top countries economically in Asia, that will be an achievement. And that is my motivation. I think you should print hats, make Pakistan great again. They're very popular in the U.S. for a while and they might be good in Pakistan. As you look at potential investors around the world, what country, you know, if you're looking 360 degrees around Pakistan, where do you want investors to come in? Where do you think there's most potential? And if you're successful in your job, you'll attract investment from this company, this country. Well, I think, you know, what we believe is as of now, you know, our target, you know, is that we like to have all countries come and invest because we have the infrastructure and the territory which we have around Gawada is unique because it basically covers, you know, Gulf in the South, Africa, Central Asian republics, then Pakistan and even, you know, the distance between Gawada and China is also pretty short. So I think any country can come and invest. As of now, the way we are looking at is that we are trying to attract, you know, in those special economic zones, those Chinese jobs which are going to other countries, the 85 million job wages, you know, basically sending to other countries. We're saying, please give us some jobs over here. You have created the infrastructure. But more importantly, we are just going everywhere. We're also going to the Pakistanis overseas Pakistanis who are really helping us. I think they're helping us. As I said in the morning, that, you know, we have a trade deficit, you know, are almost 40 billion dollars. They're covering almost 37 to 38 billion of that. So that's huge. And so they also, there are entrepreneurial Pakistani entrepreneurs sitting outside overseas and we are now trying to attract them to come to Pakistan, invest in Pakistan. Now, this is how the process will start and then other countries will come in. But we are open to investment from whoever wants to come in. Well, that's very interesting. You mentioned Guadr. I thought Guadr was the Chinese viewed it as their exclusive economic investment zone. Is it open to other countries? Absolutely. I think, I don't think this is Chinese centric. I think this guadr probably has to be open to everybody. And we believe that, you know, whether the Japanese, the Americans, the South Koreans or whoever, the Europeans, for them, you know, if they want to do business with the Gulf, if they want to do business with Africa, and they want to do business with the Central Asian Republic, this is the right place. Well, it's strategically located and while Iran remains under sanctions, it really occupies a unique place. I'm wondering, though, if the instability in Afghanistan will scare away investors from Guadr, because for Guadr to realize its potential and reach into Central Asia, you need some peace and stability in Afghanistan. Afghanistan is definitely a challenge, as I told you. And I think a stable Afghanistan will be good for all of us. And unstable, you know, Afghanistan is not going to be good for all of us. So I think we, I've been, as I said, I urge, you know, the world community, my Prime Minister is doing the same, that let's not make, you know, Afghanistan unmanageable. And I think that will not be good for anybody. You have to manage it. You can pick your friends, but you can't pick your neighbors. They're there. You're here in the United States. You're going to meet a number of American officials, as well as World Bank and IMF officials and other finance ministers from around the world, colleagues of yours. What message do you bring to American officials and U.S. government officials? And I see in the audience we have a number of U.S. government officials. What would you like them to know about Naya Pakistan? You see, I've been with Citibank for almost 25 years. I think my children have studied in the U.S. We have been very close associates of the United States for decades, you know. So I think, you know, for me to sit over here and say that, you know, we want to be friends with the United States, I think it means nothing. We have demonstrated that, you know, we have stood by United States in, you know, very difficult times. So we want to be friends with the United States of America. The very fact is that, yes, you know, we may have made some mistakes, but so has the United States. The United States can't say that they have not made mistakes in Afghanistan, but we may have also made some mistakes. But, you know, that's the reality on the ground is that the Taliban are there in Afghanistan. We are saying we'll move with the government, with the rest of the world, and making sure that they have an inclusive, you know, government and proper, you know, human rights, you know, kind of the follow the human rights for the women and everybody else. So we are on the same side. So United States should understand Pakistan is, the same Pakistan is still there. So I think let's join hands once again for the betterment of that region, which will be for the betterment of the world. I would agree. And I think if there is some alignment on objectives on the, dealing with Afghanistan, there are opportunities. And as I mentioned, having lived in Pakistan, you know, three decades ago now, but travel there regularly, Pakistanis are still oriented to toward the United States. There's more affiliation allegiance to and, you know, positive feelings to to Americans, whatever with CPAC and other sources and friendships that Pakistan has with other countries in the world. Still, the bond of friendship with Americans is going to remain strong. And I do think that that eventually will prevail. But there has to be alignment on Afghanistan. And we're coming out of a period where Pakistan's policies and U.S. policies got very disjointed and created a lot of a lot of friction. Hopefully that alignment will reoccur and will create peace and stability in a more inclusive environment in Afghanistan. I agree with you. And I believe that, you know, I says, in our interest, interest of both the countries to work with each other and to make sure that that area part of the world is stable, does not generate, you know, the kind of terrorism it's used to, and which is not good for Pakistan, not good for the United States or Europe or the rest of the world. Mr. Minister, you're being very genocidal with your time. I have maybe one or two more questions. One question came from the audience. And it refers to the challenges faced by private firms trying to operate in Pakistan. And I assume that to mean both Pakistani firms as well as international firms. You touched on this a little bit earlier, but maybe you could, you could reiterate this. What steps is your government taking to resolve some of the outstanding disputes with these firms? Maybe you could give an example of one of the challenges being overcome. Well, I think as I've told you that I've made it my policy to meet all the investors, whether they're local or foreign, once a quarter. I mean, I just go to them. I don't ask them to come to me. And we have these councils which really work regularly with the different parts of the government to make sure that we are going to remove the issues which people face. And there are issues obviously, you know, that at times our bureaucracy doesn't move as quickly as they should. But we are doing that. The ease of doing business improved by 28 points. I've told you the prime minister himself is now managing the board of investment personally. It reports directly to him. And with the finance minister who manages most of the economy is also a private sector person. My own sense is that things will improve. And as I told you in the previous meeting that the perception of improvement in Pakistan improved overall by 59 percent from one year ago. And by 104, it was negative 74 percent a year ago. And it's positive 40 percent now which is 114 percent you know by the foreigners. So something must be happening that you know the perception has improved over the last 12 months. If I could ask you a very specific question. You're the Imran Khan government has two more years in office. And there'll be elections in 2023. That means presumably of two more years in your job. Who knows what will happen in elections. All elections are uncertain. Pakistani elections tend to be particularly uncertain. What do you hope to accomplish? Can you name one or two specific things you want to accomplish in the next two years that you're in the job? Well for number one is that I want to make sure that we are on the path of inclusive and sustainable growth. I think we take all those steps which we have to do that so that the economy is growing at a four to five to six percent you know growth rate. But I also want to accomplish is that want to have this bottom up approach to make sure that the poor people of Pakistan they also get something out of this. Because the poor people of Pakistan have been waiting for the last 74 years for this Manu Salba to come down to their level and it hasn't. This time around the government of Imran Khan is committed that we actually give them the break they deserve. Those are very important words. I hope the audience has heard them. And I would just reflect again Pakistan has one fifth or it's the fifth largest country in the world fifth most populous country in the world. 220 million people or or so that amount of population if they are successful if poor people can can escape poverty improve their living standards they can contribute to the world's future in a remarkable way. The world needs Pakistan to be successful and I think we all appreciate that you're in the job trying to make that happen. Thank you very much minister. Thank you very much Peter. It's okay.