 All right So we have a lot of people joining us if you guys want to put in the chat where you're coming in from We're lucky to have Jeff and Paul from the agile pubcast So you guys were showing each other your bruise in is that what you now? Which one of you is likes the ciders is that that's me that's I've been Over this lockdown period Tom I've am I've invested in a local cider company and they've sent me a box of mystery cider Nice what I've been doing to kind of keep an element of joy to this this lockdown period and When me and Jeff record I pull a mystery cider out the box, and I don't know what's gonna be So I'm just gonna dig in now, and it could be a total surprise. It's usually something that's there Let's go with something different So Paul it's something you don't like do you still drink it or do you yeah? I've got a drink it Yeah, I've got a drink it here we go That is oh, it's it's a well-known one Jeff Shepi's So that's that's a local cider for me. That's right down that down as Taunton. Yes, lovely I'm not I'll be honest. I'm not a massive fan of elderflower, but I'll give it a go I Normally prefers the pink fruits Well, I can imagine it will be sweet Jeff well, I was showing Paul Mike because this is my homebrew ah my working from homebrew which which I am Finished finished fermentation about just just just before we went or just after we went into lockdown sort of coincided Yeah, I was asking Paul whether he could see the difference because he's seen me have a couple of these pints now And it's it's getting clearer. I think it's getting clearer and it's there's less of a head It's it's flatter. It's fruity. It's changing because it's it's still got a little bit of yeast in there So it's kind of living in it every time you have the pint from the barrel is slightly different. So Yeah, my own my own little homebrew. So are you an experienced homebrew Jeff? No, I did my first batch a while ago in In a pubcast for the pubcast Just as a bit of an experiment bit of a set-based engineering approach. So I took the same same base the same malt base But then had one batch which had certain types of hops and another batch which had another different type of hops And to see which one I preferred and then and in terms of you know learning and experimenting that sort of parallel experiments type thing Yeah, and just yeah something a little bit of a hobby So you're using your agile principles in your brewing. That's that was the plan Excellent excellent. So it looks like I'm in the before. Yeah Vasco says he's having a glass of white wine. Cheers. That's great Life you are having a drink. Cheers people having Savignon Blanc So we have people from Austria Let's see. I know You know, Tom Kegel is here from Cleveland. I saw you and we have somebody from Maine Sharon from minisator How long ago was that? So 2006 that was my friend. It's a long time ago What'd you think of minnesota jeff? I loved it. I loved it. It was cold. Wasn't it from memories? It was cold It was cold. Yeah I've got um, so it's funnily enough. So when we were there I bought so we went to see we went to see the timber wolves Ah, yeah, and we went to see the vikings and Saw the vikings against the packers actually local derby and I bought some kit for my For my daughter. So I bought her a vikings cheerleader Outfit she was two two or three at the time and um, I bought her a timber wolves tracksuit Sweatsuit, what would you call it? Yeah, and then my wife because I'm one year old now My wife got the minnesota to timber wolves tracksuit out of storage Here the day Reuse it hand it down. So she's probably only wore it like twice maybe. Yeah, and so now he's got he's got a timber wolves tracksuit Oh, that's crazy. My wife is um, she is like organized every room in our house like three times since we've been kind of At home with this pandemic. So I don't think she'd have anything from our kids when they were one So it would be Probably a good will or something like that. So All the stuff's come out of the loft old toys from 16 17 years ago clothes everything Yeah, so that's all these ways in a way. It's these jobs that we're all doing that we probably would never have done before but Emptying boxes that we would never have thought about emptying before Yeah, you've got a bit more time, aren't you to look through old photo albums and I've noticed that on facebook a lot of people posting Stuff that you know, they've recovered from their loft or photos. They thought they're lost or Their memories are being posted on which again is another benefit of this having this time to pull these things out So I'm guessing most people know who you guys are but just to kind of give people level set jeff and Paul from the agile pubcast just to kind of tell us a little bit about your background I'm I think judging by the chat most people know who you are But you know, there might be somebody out there that hasn't heard your pubcast You want to go Well, you start and I'll fill in the gaps. All right, so so Paul and I have known each other for and worked together for getting on for 20 years now Um, we used to work at British telecom together Used to pretty much sit next to each other in fact and so we were part of the agile coaching team there and Although we've gone our sort of separate ways and doing our own thing We we tend to get together, you know once a month maybe a little bit more We run a couple of classes together or just catch up for a beer now and again And we thought well If we're going to get together and we ended up talking about agile stuff anyway quite a lot of the time because that's both of our jobs And maybe it would be interesting if we just stuck a dictaphone in front of us and recorded it and A few people a few people started to listen to it a few more people started to listen to it And we found it was a great opportunity or excuse you might say to get together more frequently and and have a few more drinks So we're up to about episode number 85 now. It's the they're never scripted. We never really we never turn up with a topic in mind um, we just Have a drink see what happens just freestyle Just let it go and amazingly. Yeah people like Jeff said amazingly people Tune in I don't know. Yeah, I don't quite know why but we kept we keep doing them because people keep keep listening to them So you guys are just very compelling Ha ha maybe maybe I think it gets more maybe less compelling and the more I drink but hey, huh? Yeah, so what are you thinking of the uh, is it edel flower? Elderflower again, it's very as you can imagine. It's very sweet. Um, it's like it's like cordial really but um It's very it feels very summery and the weather here. I'm not sure what the weather's like with uton But at the moment it's pretty pretty nice for Was april late april so we're expecting 20 degrees or so this week. So um, it's quite a nice Drink I've just been out for a run as well. So it's quite a nice thing to have when I get came back in It's quite refreshing. So yeah, not it's going down quite well rather I was on a work call earlier on tom and um, somebody I was talking to you said that today Sorry, they said today that this month april is the best april for a long time Now they meant weather wise. Yeah, but my first instinct was I'm pretty sure a lot of people wouldn't call this the best april in a long time Yeah, but in the uk it has been a very good month weather wise, which which has taken the edge off quite a lot Especially with young kids. It makes it makes childcare a whole lot easier. Yeah Yeah, let them get outside and wear off some of that energy. Exactly right exactly Yeah, that's what we have a 15 year old boy and he's got a lot of energy So he's got to go do stuff or he drives his mom nuts. So So I saw someone in the chat tom said I think it was lisa say it's not five o'clock in richmond, virginia But it is five o'clock somewhere as jimmy buffett once said That's right. Uh, yeah That's right So as you guys do that you have the pubcast and you you know do work with other companies How does that work to people give you a hard time for the the pubcast or is it? got you a lot of notoriety and It helps kind of open your brand or how does that work for you guys? Oh, I was initially quite nervous about it wasn't a jeff to be fair And um, because I thought was this gonna be we could be ridiculed unprofessional, you know, kind of yeah um, but It's come come up in some really strange conversations now that And quite regularly, um, I'll be teaching or I know that jeff and I teach together and some will say Oh, we love the podcast the pubcast and I was um, I was at a conference in london um And I was just walking around the tables and someone Grabbed me and said are you are you off the pubcast? He didn't quite know he not met me before in a work context But he recognized me from the photos and from the from the name so I think yeah, it's surprisingly it has um It struck a chord with a few people I think I think it's probably not everyone's cup of tea but um Yeah, it's been pleasantly surprised I think Yeah, I'd be surprised if I suppose we'd never really know if we if we've lost out on work because of it They just wouldn't ever speak to us, but I'd be surprised if anybody who uh, who would typically Go out and search for some some agile coaching help would be We're worried about the the reputation would be the ones that were holding the purse strings, but um No, it's I wouldn't say it's it's led to An influx of work But I don't think it's uh had a too much of an impact either way. It has started like the pauses a lot of conversations Yeah, yeah, we get quite a lot of interaction on twitter people asking us You know questions topics that we can cover and we've had a few Live sessions where people have been we've been streaming and things and people joining in so a bit like this Yeah, so jeff you've written some books, you know in this context does it help That is that a platform for you to help because I know you've written, uh, three or four books Four now four right so Has it helped or not made it much of a difference, sir So I suppose it is it's a good question in a way. I don't have a good answer for you and because I don't really have the data to to really back it up either way and I I've never really been very good at self-publication self-publicizing so paul and I we always feel We know we don't we don't do sponsorship or anything like that. We don't we don't try and plug things Um, just because we feel guilty and possibly when we listen to things we don't really want to listen to the adverts either so Um, no, I don't we don't really you don't really use the use the pubcast for that It probably comes up in conversation now again Yeah It's a passing thing, but no I can hear your thunderstorms started good lord. I wonder what I was Why a theory my clouds have turned into thunder so hopefully the the wi-fi guides keep us together so You you you you took we thought a lot about improv on on the pubcast as well and I wouldn't say that you necessarily seen seen sales of your book spike After after a session where we've been talking about improv No, no, definitely not but it's um And again, we just we never really viewed it and we made a conscious effort that it wouldn't be a sales sales avenue for either of us and it's um It's just I quite like the fact and we've always just kept it very informal very unscripted and very um It leave even if we've had nothing to really talk about we'll we'll find something You know and it's just been there's never been a topic really that we've walked into it with It's just whatever on our minds at that given moment We had uh, we had a pub quiz last week On we didn't even record this one. So it's it's not even gonna go out live. We just we just had a few people into our informal social distance in Last friday and and we ran a we ran a pub quiz With a few agile questions and and just that started a conversation Yeah, and Yeah, it's amazing. We always thought oh we always thought we we did worry You know what if we turned up and we we didn't really have anything to talk about or We started talking about something and it was nothing to do with agile. What would we do? Um, but that fear is never really materialized Yeah So when you guys as you walk through or talk through a topic Do you feel like it helps you to kind of bounce it off of like Paul bounce it off of Jeff or vice versa Yeah And we've often done so often we'll do this when we're so like Paul said sometimes we we teach together now and again We teach some advanced classes together Um, and so we'll be together somewhere like in in Dublin island or in london or somewhere like that And after work we'll we'll go to the pub and we'll actually just stick the dixphone on and we'll just have a have a chat And so we'll be kind of debriefing the day Um, and yeah, we'll be talking through our thoughts and rationalizing them and just seeing where they go And you know, how did you see that and what did you think about that and what does that mean and? How's that relevant elsewhere and yeah, it gives you I think Yeah, when we talk to a lot of agile coaches this idea of if you can If you can explain what you're thinking or a concept to study else it helps you understand it more Um, yeah, so yeah, it's a little bit cathartic in a way Did you say born it? Yeah, definitely. I think it's all like you said it's also a bit of a retrospective on the day in a kind of slightly more fun way and it's it's a different it takes some of the effort out of Because we wouldn't want to sit down and do it formally at the end of it at the end of a training class and sit down and and have a drains up on on how it went but Just the the sense of a lot of people have said this to us Just recently because a lot of people in this lockdown situation and they enjoyed we're doing this regular friday Friday afternoon friday evening thing Certainly the uk and a number of a number of nice tweets that we've had just to say Thanks very much for that It's just nice to to share a drink and just to share a bit of chat with people and it's um, we're kind of a nice way just to Actually see an end to the day or see an end to that particular event or whatever it might be that's that's happened It is quite quite relaxing Do you guys find that I've talked to a few agile coaches and You know like some some companies are cutting their hours back They're looking for options of training or looking for different ways to You know generate income Do you are you hearing from people like You know because I know you guys put some things online and I know garith garith put a plug in for you He said you're the best you trainers agile trainers in the uk. So I don't know if you're paying garith I'm not sure But do you find people are reaching out for additional training or they're just kind of want to Kind of survive the crisis and move slowly through it I haven't seen a huge amount of people looking for training right now. I know yeah I know there are a lot of people out there that that are really enjoying and Jumping on the the opportunity to run some online training And there are people out there that seem to be busier than ever But no, I think a lot of you know, even even from a coaching perspective So I don't really do a huge amount of training. I spend more time Either with leadership teams or coaching coaching teams or coaching individuals and even that has Just been a case of right. We need to take stock You know, quite a lot of these people are actually thinking I need to I need to really think about how this is impacting my business I need to just I need to focus on something else for a minute And it's it's a quite a normal sort of defensive reaction It's it's very sort of short-term and and narrow if you're there if you like But it's understandable And if you think about trying to get people organized into a training course right now That must be I put myself in their position. I think that would be quite a long way down the list of Things to be thinking about yeah But I could think for the other way in that actually a lot of organizations now think well, actually This is this is more of a reason than ever to be agile And if we're ever going to invest in our people and give them the skills and the tools that they need to actually give this a chance Now is the time Yeah, and I don't know whether this this term means anything to you over in the states furlough Yes, in the uk we're having a lot of that at the moment people furloughing their workers Sort of effectively putting them on on temporary leave and the government subsidizing a lot of their wages With the hope that when things get back to normal the economy can just sort of jump start without a massive employment Now what you can't do on furlough is work, but what you can do on furlough is training So that's that that is an option But I think in general there's this sort of concerns about sort of cash flow and supply chain and things like that I think I I think I've seen that I might be you know, maybe forecasting too much on this, but I think Probably from my perspective a lot of the The hand waving that that sense of ah that panic has a little just in terms of routine now has kind of probably subsided a little bit maybe and That kind of that new normal is starting to kick in and a lot a few companies I think who have reached out to me just just in the last few days I think have started to say well, let's let's assume that this is the new this is how we're going to work Then maybe we do have to start thinking Okay, how do we do this? How do we pursue our training or how do we pursue our Agile journey if we can't be face-to-face because we can't we can't hold on forever So I think now particularly in the UK A lot of people are getting used to That the the constraints about around working around being at home A lot of people are more comfortable with it. And I think slowly maybe We might start to see companies start to Just try and shift to think well, how could we if this is going to carry on for a while because There's a lot of stories that are saying this could happen for months. Yeah, we can't we can't sit on our hands for months We've got to be able to move this thing forward And maybe we have to start thinking just a couple of inquiries that I've had or a couple of emails I've had over the last couple of days have started to give me that sense maybe We have a question in the chat about good remote facilitation tools that you used with teams in this kind of pandemic situation Well, you got About this I've just spent the last two days. Um, and again, this is again, it sounds painful. It sounds like a A chore but in some respects, I'm probably better off because of it because I've spent the last two days learning how to use Miro Have you heard of Miro, Tom? Yeah Yeah, so I was unaware of it until maybe a couple of weeks ago And it was that that name started to get mentioned to me But I don't know Jeff used it and Jeff I've run a class with it and had some success with it So I said, you know, I'm going to invest my time and my money and actually start thinking about how I can use this tool I've been, you know Quite aware around it, but generally quite impressed In terms of I think now I can I can certainly run a whole class Using just one tool which I hadn't experimented with before I was just using bits of various different tools just to meet and Make you meet that demand, but I know I think now because I've spent a bit of time on redesigning and and actually Adding some artwork to it. I think I'm actually quite pleased with how it looks and how it how it kind of flows So quite impressed with that, but there's there's there's quite a few. Um, google jam board. I've been using a lot of as well that's um Google product again, it's all free, but it's really really easy to get started with just like a virtual virtual flip chart Fun retros and the one I've heard of not used it, but a lot of people are telling me that they are using it um a lot of open source stuff that um Jitsi as well as another one that I've been recommended in as a In opposition to zoom as a something which is more open source and more integratable So, yeah, there's like there's been really really surprised actually, um I just saw two comments in the chat there. Is it mural? Oh, it's a mirror That that seems to be one of the new Battles, you know, that's two of them, isn't it? Yeah Is is your favorite mirror was your favorite mural and i'm sure it's not just those two but because they have similar sounding names that they're In quite direct competition with and they do look quite similar don't they from what I've seen they do They're both both fabulous Yeah Do you have any experience Jeff for Well, like Paul said, I jumped into Miro a little bit before him And it it it really really pleasantly surprised me It what was what was great was So the the one class that I ran with it I had Some a couple of people on the class who had had more experience with Miro than me Um, and yeah, you know, they were they were helping me Awesome to tool Which which which is great when you consider it From an agile perspective you're looking to bring the class in any way you want that sort of self-engagement You want that self-management self-organization? And you know, I often talk to people from a from a coaching perspective um It's not actually you having an opinion can be quite Detrimentally in a way if you want the team to to step up Um, so if you can genuinely not know I find it easy to coach in a domain where I Don't know. Yeah Then that yeah, we sort of had that Interesting. So do you have any favorites? Um, I've used so I've used Miro and Miro Just working with another coach. We were trying to You know evaluate some things for a company, but Um, that was more of a cost things where they were Not wanting to pay the price for either one of those so But yeah, there's that's the one thing I was wondering about as we kind of go through this Um situation where there's going to be a lot of you think a lot of people thinking about okay How can we solve this problem different ways to innovate and solve the solution and you know Training and teaching people different things and this because like if you're talking about there's people and obviously we have this similar situation United States to where companies are furloughing workers and people are You know sitting at home and drinking cider or whatever. So, you know But it's it's it you know opens a lot of doors for people Yeah Yeah, only if you not if you're in South Africa day. So you can't they they they banned alcohol the sale of alcohol when they went Really? Yeah, well, I'll say this so I live in pennsylvania Pennsylvania has state-owned liquor stores They shut down a couple weeks ago when the start of the pandemic But the funny thing is so all the neighboring states So like for instance, I live close to new jersey So a lot of people are going to new jersey to get their booze or you can go to so the state of delaware and uh the state of west virginia which border pennsylvania They look they ask for your id when you buy your booze and if you have a pennsylvania one, they'll say sorry We can't sell it to you So it's a similar situation, but my wife has found wine.com. So we've had a few deliveries from there So we're okay Good So have you guys used just mural or have you used mural as well? I haven't used mural. No, okay I again, it was it's one of those things. I think a lot of these things just go on sort of word of mouth and personal recommendations So, you know, I knew a couple of people whose opinion I really trusted who had really positive experiences And also they were willing to give me a bit of a free crash course Yeah, yeah, so a quick dummies guide to it And so that was that was the sort of clincher for me. Not that one had necessarily more features than the other or better features than the other it was just sort of access and and so Well, now vasco says that if they banned alcohol and it would start a revolution in finland, so Oh So just this sort of solution type thing you say you're trying to find a solution to things and I think that you know, that's a natural human response Isn't it when there's a problem is to try and find a solution and I don't want to say that that's a bad thing But I don't think there is a solution to this. It's it's about coping and it's about um Finding a way of of making some progress in the here and now knowing but in Two weeks time things are going to be different and the solution might be different because the problem might be different Yeah, and also there are probably I'm not going to say infinite but certainly lots of solutions and you know your solution It might be equally good and equally valid or more valid than than my solution right now But that doesn't mean that we should all do yours Mm-hmm And I think that one of the things that I'm seeing from from this globally is Essentially, so Paul said that we're you know, we're sort of getting used to this humans are incredibly adaptable incredibly adaptable As a species we're very resilient and what we are finding is that no matter how alien this sounded to begin with and how Scared we all were well. I'm not saying it's it's good or it's easy, but it's it's it's a lot more comfortable now and tolerable Yeah, and we do that we adapt Um, and that's that's what we're seeing and this is as a species now I think one of the things that we're adapting to is ambiguity And we'll never we'll never become fully comfortable with ambiguity. We're hardwired to avoid it. Yeah, but In if you look at the sort of global press conferences and things like that now Governments are feeling more comfortable to say, you know what we don't have an answer to that Whereas in the past it would have been I have to give an answer Yeah, and and it's not causing Outcry because people understand that this is so complex and so dangerous That actually saying I don't know But we're going to figure it out Is the right response? So I was talking to my you know, my daughter's At a level a so just before university just before college Yeah, so quite an important time in her educational career and A couple of weeks ago the government came out and said This year we're not going to do exams So this year students you're not going to take exams and so her response was So so so how do I how do I get my grades what what happens? And they didn't answer that they just said we don't know yet We'll figure it out for what we do know right now is that you won't be taking exams But we don't need to know the answer to the second part before we make this decision on the first part And that's that's a massive change for a lot of Humanity, but it's a real agile response, right? Mm-hmm We wonder as to whether organizations We obviously we can't predict the future. We don't have a crystal ball, but maybe if this huge complexity Issue now is staring us in the face And we don't have an answer to it Maybe companies leadership will be more comfortable with complexity in the future that Development teams won't get you know Hanging out to dry if they don't know how long it'll take to do something because we don't know that Yeah, there's there's too many unknowns. You think that might happen or am I just Maybe too hopeful I think so I think also this idea of We'll we'll become So I'll put it another way Quite often when I'm when I'm working with an organization. No, I'll say more than quite often Every time that I'm working My part of my feedback to them is you're doing too much stuff Yeah, you've got too many pieces of work projects In progress too many plates are spinning People are split spread across too many projects and teams There's just so much stuff going on that you're not really finishing anything. It's it's not it's not a revolutionary It's not particularly insightful, but it's very very common And no matter where I go, there are always multiple reasons if I was being unfair, I'd say excuses as to why They can't stop a lot of this stuff Yeah, the regulator Um, the combats to trade share we've signed a contract this customer's going to sue us if we don't blah blah blah blah Uh, we've spent too much on it already or whatever. There's loads and loads of reasons why they can't stop these things And what we found now is that they've had to And It hasn't been as catastrophic as their excuses were saying it would be And so it's been a massive eye opener for For leaders for for project managers for teams for organizations in general Of do you know what are the assumptions that we made? about the commitments that we made Maybe they were slightly faulty And so maybe we could do less stuff and maybe we will get more stuff done as a result I think it was on on our call last week. Jeff and one of our regular listeners David said he's based in Germany and they've gone down to 80 hours. I think it's 80 hours So they had they can only legally work for 80 80 percent of their contracted hours So he says it's a it's a massive real-time prioritization problem You now have to put some things down because you don't have enough hours in the week to do it And you can't work any extra hours when you're contracted. So it's and that is the same for everyone across the board whether you're You know the ceo or whether you just um, you know just join the development team It's it's broken one. They've got to do the same thing and they've got to be brutal about how they prioritize There were everyone's prioritizing that Well, that that's quite key though, isn't it because if everyone's doing it Yeah, I'm less scared about me being the only one in my industry and all the competitors carrying on when actually They've lost they've missed the trick there because if all their competitors were carrying on Thrashing on stuff that they would never get finished and they were the only ones to cut down They would have a competitive advantage, but ironically When they've lost the competitive advantage, they feel safer Yeah, but Whatever so how else in the chat any advice on coaching leadership on the value of self-organizing teams particularly in the current pandemic confested waters um So my my answer to this one is is I'd be interested in what paul's got to say about this as well because My view here is that great teams thrive Even in These in the hardest situations So when you're in really difficult situations The really really good stand out from the rest Uh in my experience The really really good teams Are the self-organizing teams. So I don't think I would need to do a lot of convincing My belief is that this will become self-evident Because they will see that now in order for them to see it. They need to be able to compare They need to have a control samples. They need to be able to see A self-organizing team and a non-self-organizing team And be able to not just see it, but actually look for it Because unless they're thinking oh, I'm going to see how this goes running a conscious experiment or observe consciously They wouldn't necessarily see it But having said all that Even self-organizing teams need to feel safe And the first thing for any leadership To do in these kinds of situations is to create some form of safety um Because otherwise everyone's going to be struggling um, and even the most Autonomous unit will Look for a security blanket when they feel a drift And it's very easy to feel a drift right now And what do you think Paul? Yeah, I think I was going to mention the safety thing But you covered it So the other thing I was mentioned a couple of people have spoken to me Completely outside of the industry at my industry and outside of work, but About how they missed their colleagues So a few of them have been furloughed and a few of them have um, you know, maybe lost contact They're not having data they contact with people they work with but they They're not so much missing their their relatives because and their family because they're seeing them every day, but they miss their work colleagues So that again that spells to me the sense of people Get safety from each other Not just from their boss or their leadership, but they're from each other So even if teams aren't seeing each other as often they probably Feel the need to check in with people more and I think that's never are going to be a bad thing especially in times like this when Perhaps people need a bit more connection and the need um, and the the advantages that we have now with the tools that can do this for us, but It's it doesn't it doesn't you don't need to have an excuse now to To pick up the phone and just to you know, just to text someone or just to chat with someone just to See how they're doing even if they're not on the team right now Maybe they've been furloughed or whatever that is but people I've spoken to are still checking in with people They work with just to maintain those connections And I think the better teams do that or feel the need to do that Perhaps without thinking Another question from the chat. Can you cover the psychological side of change being difficult for some and they hold out and become problematic? How do you typically address that? So what are we addressing here? Sorry the fact that change is problematic Yeah, the difficulty of change from like a psychological change being difficult So I think I mean I think it's difficult As you would say in America period. I think it's difficult for everyone um And that sense of that sense of psychological safety makes any kind of change easier um But the other thing that really for me makes change easier is is the why um, so if we if I know why I'm doing something differently And I can tap that into My personal objectives and my personal values and that becomes A lot easier and if I feel supported in doing that it becomes a lot easier So I'm looking from from a leadership perspective and that doesn't have to be a You know an actual executive of an organization doesn't have to be a line manager anyone Who I look who looks to me for leadership If I can provide some sense of some sense of safety And I can help that person find some sense of purpose and some sense of meaning in the change And then provide them some level of support Then it suddenly becomes a lot easier I'm not sure if I understood the question correctly Something that can again Ryan's because we've talked about this I think last week Jeff, but um Don't underestimate as well the safety that people get from being at home so because And I felt this I went out to the supermarket And it felt like one of the most stressful trips to the supermarket. I think I've ever had But I think it's because I'd spent maybe six days at home and I had one day I built it all up towards this one day to go out And then so the the security I felt when I got back in back home was a sense of relief that I'm back within my own four walls so I think there's a human side to this that we do tend to feel safer At home anyway So despite the fact we are all on them, you know a virtual meet up here But we are all within our own homes So you can build on that sense of safety people might feel more able to speak out or more able to voice their opinion Just because they're at home Because I mean within my own four walls I think sometimes we forget how much that can be an advantage as well to making something happen So what one of the things I like about our our podcasts and just me and Paul working together is that he can disagree with me and I can I can challenge him at times And just on that point about feeling safe in your own home There is that's everyone should feel it's not everybody does most people do Everybody should feel safe in their own home. Um, but actually For some people inviting your work colleagues into your home Or the part of your home where you're having to work from Is quite intimidating. It's quite a sort of vulnerable feeling. You know, some people their work space is their bedroom Some people it's they've got they've got their kids around And they don't They just don't want to show off what's going on in their house, right? And so this is where some of these tools of virtual backgrounds and things like that can can be really Equalizing if you like, I know and we had we saw the the highlights of that The one world together music event in the day And my teenage daughter Oh, I get to see inside Lady Gaga's house That's that's she knows what she sounds like. She's heard her sing, but she's never seen so their house before We'll see Elton John's garden and and that's sort of you know, that I don't really want people to see inside my house, you know By Jeff, I think that changes with time though. I think the more you do it The the safer you feel the more you From my perspective the more I care less about what's in the background The more people that I've found who've said they accept it, you know, that's really cool Well, that's I can see your kids playing football in the garden I was really embarrassed about it to begin with but you know what people said it's really nice You can see your kids outside playing that's lovely because you're you're more human You are you are you may well be on a conference call And people have put twitter pictures, don't they of like their makeshift office on an ironing board in the bedroom because that's that's the only desk that they had so There's a there's an air of You've just got to make do with what you've got and I think people are much more forgiving and that that that creates a sense of Common struggle I think with between between teams as well is that we're all in this together Yeah, yeah Once you've got there you can look at and think that was a massive part of that being built But to take that step it can be quite scary. I agree with that bit. Yeah. Yeah So hazel asks there's best ways to encourage people to challenge those assumptions without needing a global pandemic Good question Well, it's it's sort of um, it's kind of I love hazel um I hazel hazel was on my Kickstarter backers I I feel I can I feel I can be A little bit blunt here and say it's kind of a move point Because the box is open now You can't go back to a pre-pandemic world yeah, um, and so It everything you're living in a history gcse question you're living in a college economics question All right, we are living through this now people are going to be referring back to this point in time for over a century now And so this is always going to be a massive reference point And any assumptions that we have going forward Are going to be completely different to the assumptions that we had before so I don't think we need to necessarily answer that I'll be interested. I don't you know, we've all got it can go the future can go in lots of different ways obviously um But I don't think we're ever going to have to deal with that That situation where those assumptions haven't been challenged again Is that fair? I wonder if people you know because We'd ask um, we talk in our classes about powerful coaching questions things like that Given an idea of the world or given a given a carp like you had carp launch an unlimited budget to solve this problem How we and some people struggle with that suspended disbelief But the fact that you cut there couldn't be a question that said imagine a global pandemic because we we are Like Jeff says, you know, we are having one. We are experiencing that now. So maybe it will help people Push themselves that bit further because maybe there are alternatives that you haven't thought of yet Maybe it might help that creativity a little bit more So vasco asked this question. What are the mechanisms that are helping people accept uncertainty? And the lack of time to do everything they need to do So people have haven't people accept I don't I think time The longer it goes on surely the longer it goes on it becomes More normal. I think we're proving to ourselves to me. It's a little bit like Accelerated gradual exposure if that term makes sense So to overcomeophobia You gradually expose yourself to the phobia, right? So if I'm afraid of spiders, I might have a really really small spider in a box Over the other side of the room and I know it's there. I can't see it But over time maybe I'll put it in a transparent box and it become bigger and I'll get closer to it eventually the stress levels and literally the heart rate goes down and And the temperature and what have you goes down Becomes more normal and and every time that you're Upping that you're proving to yourself That you can cope with that And so what we're doing here is every day that goes by every milestone that's you know a week or You know, we've hit the peak or you know, whatever that next milestone is you proved yourself. Okay So we've done that You know we my wife and I went for a Went for a walk and the first three weeks was the big block in in the uk and said isolation for three weeks Um, and so our first instinct was well, I never do that. Yeah, we've never had to do that before we'll fight The kids will okay each other And so we went for a walk and said, you know what we've done three weeks and yeah, we're still Yeah, we're still walking together. We're still talking together. We're still in good terms. Wow. Yeah, we've done that and so And we still haven't got any more certainty than we had three weeks ago And our stress levels are lower and when I say accelerated gradual exposure is because That's in a very short period of time But because everything is so concentrated right now That that pace feels right This is probably answer the second. Yeah, probably out to the second part of Vasco's question Um doing everything that they need to do I say what on the flip side of what doesn't help Is um, and this is especially Something that I know that we've all noticed is is bad news So when it's just all over the radio for us and our house the radio is on a lot So we have the radio on night. It's kind of needed for background noise But we have to turn it off because it's just relaying quite frequently how bad everything is until I think it was I think it was my wife or some read something out of the newspaper or read something Off off the internet that said although some good news Is it something like the the curves start to flatten or we think we're through the worst or whatever it might be but start A little bit just a little bit of good news But the amount of of joy that that you know the sense of positivity that you get from a little bit of good news can be quite quite powerful So when I know it's quite hard to look for it But when it when we are in a situation where it does seem to be surrounded by global bad news But just that little glimmer of hope that little glimmer of positivity can be quite enthusing and can actually Allow give people that that sense. Well, maybe we should carry on Maybe we should keep keep pushing with this. Maybe we're going to get through this Maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel metaphorically That's a really good point and you know, I talked to a lot of scrum masters product has changed ages leaders and saying I wasn't using this metaphor then but You know what spreads like a virus Fear fear spreads like a thought but also optimism spreads like a virus You know if you've got a cynic in your team that can bring everyone down But if you've got an optimist in your team if you've got you know, a happy smiley person You can all think of one That people just love being around and it's really hard to not smile when that person's around Be that person You know, not only does it help other people But it helps you as well It's hard to feel bad when you're physically smiling When you lift the corners of your mouth, it's hard to feel bad Something I read about body language as well a while back But it's very hard to be sad with your arms above your head So you realize that your arms play a huge part because that's why we tend to when you're cheering about pop concerts You tend to cheer with your arms in your air So it tends to be and I tell my teams my daughter when she's not having a tantrum I try and hold I get it. Yeah trying to get her to hold her hands When she does that she smiles and naturally because she knows what I'm doing She can't help but smile as a hands gone. Yeah, right works Interesting. It's very hard to have an argument with the hands in it It's it's hard because I don't want to make light of anything, you know I've posted a few things online saying, you know, it's okay to feel good to feel okay to feel happy It's okay to feel positive And I don't want to come across as I'm making lights because there's a lot of no hardship going on out there There's a lot of people dying a lot of people losing their businesses There's a lot of bad stuff going on and I don't want to gloss over that But equally There's a sense of you can choose how to react and your choice not only affects you, but it affects everybody around you And it's not as pithy is just making Taking lemons and making lemonade or whatever cliche you want, but there is a sense of okay There's something positive that I can choose Which message I want to listen to right now now Holder asks this question. Do you ever have Or have a company that you're working with has using too many tools Oh We could go back to bt for that one. Can we always um But and so as well as paul and I we argue I often argue with myself which can be Enter entertaining for people watching I suppose and but but troubling for my wife and my therapist But so I would say yes Yes, but that lots of tools can be a good thing as well Because it's easy to over standardize too quickly You know bt were guilty of that as well. So as well as having too many tools and it was fragmented and you know Nobody could switch between projects because they had to learn so many new things and so on Equally so many times you've been told you have to use this particular tool for standardization purposes Um, and I think there is there is a nice sweet spot in the middle and the more complex things are The more it pays to to experiment Just because I found mirror to be quite useful doesn't mean I should shut myself off from from all the other options out there Generally the better tools I've seen teams Use of be they've Two things they've even been ones that they've chosen So involving the team In the decision which tool should we use? Uh, or secondly tools that they've built themselves And it sounds a bit trivial, but but there's a few situations in nokia where Teams just did a bit of free time had a bit of free time and created something simple enough that they could use it And it was it was meeting the purpose And it was free and they'd they were going to maintain it because they built it So it's I know that's that's probably more particular to certain teams that have that that that skill But there's nothing to say that you have to use something on the shelf If you could create something similar or better yourself You work with what you what you've got and what you know where your strengths are so i'm pretty sure that if um Let's see. I'm just pretty starting here. This could go terribly well Um, if if my if my daughter was part of the scrum team with their friends She'd put her her tool of choice for a retrospective would probably be tiktok Yeah, all right. Now you and I would think tiktok ready I'm I'm I'm extrapolating onto you here tom might be doing you a huge disservice, but um, but She's really really familiar with that and can can do great things with it And that would be really creative and she'd be comfortable and in a comfort zone But for us, you know, we've got our comfort zones. And so I think there is a sense of Uh giving the team the freedom A certain level of freedom not complete freedom Um, but a certain level of freedom to be to find what works for them Yeah, yeah, I was recently. I think it's in the accelerate, uh book Um, they talk about the teams that do the best pick their own tools and that you know when you force a tool on a team They're obviously not as productive and you know, they feel like They kind of resist it, but uh vasco has a good question here. What do you think will change when we go back to the to work in an office Used to say we will Good question to say we will yeah I think both both sides both parts of the relationship there are probably seriously reevaluating that and yeah companies thinking We probably could make this work for our people, you know Rather than these massively expensive big office and central locations and things where people are commuting hours and all this And also people thinking, you know, I don't I don't miss my commute yeah, um and All right, not everybody has a great optimum setup for working from home, but Equally, it's not really working from home for a lot of people either because For me, I've got three kids in the house, right? So it's not I can't spend eight hours a day like I did before working They'd normally be at school or at nursery so when when Schools open you've got a completely different normal to what you have now But again, it won't be like the old normal and it won't be like the normal in a year's time or three years time It's just continued evaluation I think commute. I think travel will be very different that I think I think people will initially certainly crave Going back to work going back to I think it's again in terms of safety feeling Seeing the people that they've worked with particularly in stronger teams or or stronger organizations People will want to go back to work with their colleagues or peers or friends But I think a lot of companies will drastically review the necessity to travel A lot of my friends see Let's say a lot of my friends who would regularly be asked um to travel to london Probably two three times a week and he could then I was saying that's probably largely unnecessary Um or to travel to meet unless you'll meet unless you're meeting clients. They're saying Travel should be unnecessary So I think that will Rubberband effect to anything extreme, don't you? Yeah, so so we've been we've been missing our team interactions We've been missing going to the going out for dinner. We've been missing going to the pub or go to the cinema or whatever So there's going to be a you see all the things that your social media when this is over Oh, we're massive So there probably will be a sense of well, let's all get back together again because we haven't had the chance before In some form rather, but I think it will it will slowly sort of settle on something different. Yes before The new normal, yeah Yeah, I suppose Vasco's question was what what do we think that new normal will be? And I think it there will be less centralized office. I think there will be A lot more of the I don't know what the generic term is that we have So we work and the all jacquard was the generic term for that problem So working space or workspace. Yeah, those shared offices the way yeah, the work. Yeah Yeah, things like that that that that will definitely I think be a lot a lot of a bigger thing Something my my brother-in-law said to me this weekend, um, which I've never Things don't really stop to think about but the amount of offices open plan offices that are not built To maintain a two meter distance between people So you just I Both or any of the offices that I've worked in recently or in previous years you think back to how that was set up in btgf We wouldn't be able to work Let what less probably less a meter at max between desks between screens It just wouldn't work it for where we are now or maybe where we are in three months six months 12 months You couldn't maintain a sensible I think a two meter distance between between co-workers But humans haven't been designed for that, right? We're we we we actually crave physical contact And we get pleasure and stress release and stress relief from physical contact So I've seen people saying you know on social media when we go back. I can't see people going back to hugging and you know kissing on cheeks and handshakes and things but As well as Things will change we do as human beings. We do generally have quite short memories True And so I think habits and culture and that that just innate human need and and desire to be Not just emotionally connected to one another but physically connected to one another to to be able to greet and have a hug and Have a handshake and a high five and and what have you I think that that will trump things when things are safe again. Yeah And I think that's part of the drive, right? I think that's one of the reasons why We want to we want to fix this. It's it's it's not that everyone's saying, you know what? Yeah, we can we can we can stay like this. We don't need to interact with one another anymore We do we want to that's one of the reasons why we're working so hard to try and Change things and find a vaccine and fix it so that we can go back to that sense of society community friendship Yeah, yeah, and they can have a regular pubcast Well, it's kind of we kind of feel a bit, um frauds at the moment because we're still calling our Pubcast a pubcast, but we're not we haven't been in the pub for months. Jeff. Well, it feels like it feels like months Well, so I'm for what it's worth. You can't see is you can see the wood behind me I'm in a I'm in a I might out my office, which is in my garden So it's it's effectively what used to be a shed and here Knock on that. That's my that's my homebrew barrel. So I think this Is a pub as the Jeff arms Yeah, Jeff's arms See, I can just do some optics. Jeff put some optics behind you that would be perfect. Okay, it's upper So, uh, yeah, so I believe I'm in the pub and I've got my I've got my agile pubcast beer mat There you go resting my beer on so, you know, this is coming live from the Jeff arms Excellent. Well, hey guys, it's been about an hour. I appreciate all your time Just want to thank you And really appreciate you guys joining us and sharing all those and answering questions and and sharing your brews with us Yes, lovely. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having us Excellent. All right guys. Well, this is going to wrap it up. We'll talk to you soon We'll let you know what we're working on planning the next agile online meetup for next month So we'll talk to you later. Cheers guys. Thanks so much. Cheers. Cheers