 I think we do have something that potentially we want to potentially vote on, although it may also need to go back and we'll see. So good morning. Welcome everybody. You saw the any trust reminder so don't any trust. Today we have a fairly light agenda, although I suspect that maybe the copyright license discussion will take up a little bit of time. And so we have Indie so Nathan will do the Indie update. And then, and then that's it so any other items for the agenda other than what we have here. And then Todd, I'd actually like to let Nathan go first, just so we get that in and don't on the clock or anything. Sure. I don't know that it came in, but it might have in the last little bit, Nathan. I heard of it. So I missed the first few minutes of last week. You know, so I actually didn't have an update prepared for today. So I apologize. Well, you can go first, but Yeah. So, okay, so Nathan, you'll be first up next week and then hopefully we'll also get Silas on. I don't see him right now, but I think we'll send a reminder just to make sure. Okay, great. And I will be ready for that next week. Super. Thanks. All right. So we have a really potentially short call. So let's get rolling Todd with the hack fest. All right, sounds good. Dropping the agenda into the rocket chat. I think we're about seven weeks out now we've got a lot of people registered for this already great to see the interest for that already 60 for the hack fest about 90 for the day zero. And I suspect that'll climb over the next seven weeks. But I think Tracy and I were chatting yesterday wanted to think a little bit about putting some more structure in place for this. Yeah, got a bit more runway this time and kind of how do we how do we structure this. This time around so what goes into the day zero training there's a lot of interest around that good audience for that and then for the next two days. I know we, you know, want to have an eye towards cross project collaboration actual hacking, potentially some work group meetings. What is the, what is the best structure and then how do we see some topics for that. So that people hit the ground running while they're there. Yeah, I agree. So, where's my chat. I haven't looked at the agenda. So in terms of what's in the Google Doc it's really bare bones at this point and just kind of. Yeah. But I think you know if there's specific things that the different projects want people to be hacking on. There's cross project ideas around cross project collaboration ways to bridge communities to get those thoughts in there with more specific asks and parameters around it. And then in terms of the training, is there any work that we can do in advance and blast out to the attendees to get them set up because I know kind of downloading some stuff was a limiting factor in LA and other things like that. I think for day zero right now the agenda just has a copy of what we did in LA. And so I think it's worthwhile to spend some time thinking about whether or not that work right the lightning talks work. And then what kind of actual sessions do we want, which, which of the frameworks or projects are we going to be doing demos on or not demos but training on as far as like getting people set up and those sorts of things. So that, you know, we can take some time maybe a week before and just, you know, set up some VMs that people could download and have on their machines to actually not have to worry about any sort of Wi Fi Wi Fi issues. So the one thing that I thought was a little bit awkward about LA was that everybody's sort of 101 session or, you know, maybe 102 was at the same time. And so you had to choose, which isn't necessarily ideal if the objective is to get people sort of familiar. And the 10 minute lightning talk isn't necessarily enough time to really sort of do much more than here's where we are. Here's what we are. But you can't really get into much detail in 10 minutes. I'm just wondering if we, you know, if we, if we want to spend a little bit more time on, certainly with the platforms to you know, make their case for a little bit deeper dive and then maybe then people are in a position that they might want to choose or and then maybe a little bit less time with, you know, getting set up and, you know, submitting your first transaction or something. I don't know, I just, I felt that it was awkward because people had to choose. And then there is complete separation. And I think we could go back I think when we were originally looking at this one of the suggestions was to do maybe three of the projects. Each one by itself, as opposed to parallel tracks. Yeah. That, you know, that might be, you know, a better idea and then you could maybe spend the last couple hours in a day. Maybe you want to focus on one of them. Right. The other track that would be very interesting to me, I know this is one of the most productive things I was able to do in LA, was we had kind of an architectural comparison session between soft tooth and indie and we walked through the similarities and differences. And at least for for the indie maintainers that was actually one of the best ways to learn about how soft tooth is put together. And it would be nice to do some of that with the other project. Yeah, we could. That's another way of dealing with it is having instead of having each project do a, you know, its own thing that you could have maybe a collaborative comparison and discussion of the differences between the various platforms that might be worthwhile. I might even record that music for other things. I agree with Nathan. That was extremely useful, but I think that's more of a of a thing that people who are really experienced with the projects want to be doing. Rather than kind of an introduction. I would just had a question. The previous hack fest, have we had like a really high percentage of people ready to code, because a lot of the people that are new that I talked to are just, you know, kind of coming to learn about the project. Or even like business side people that have just like no interest in coding whatsoever. Do we have like an accurate count of kind of how big this sort of population is, because this might be a reason why, you know, we're having trouble hacking these because we've got a lot of business people. Right. I'm trying to recall what we had in LA. When I recall, you know, doing the let's set up your machine, let's get you, you know, running here on your on your laptop or whatever. I think we had, you know, maybe six in the fabric one. I don't know Dan and Nathan how many you guys had. I know Dan's having trouble with his phone. Yeah, on the indie side, we didn't end up with a different room for the one on one session. So we kind of ends up launching straight into the meetings with the thought to folks so we didn't really have a specific one on one other than hallway track kind of thing. We gave introductions to four or five people there but obviously there wasn't a session conflict with that. So, you know, heart maybe to your point maybe maybe that's that's, you know, they really do just want to sort of understand what's the difference between the various platforms why might I choose to use, you know, one over the other or you know what are the benefits of using one in certain use cases. I mean, again, I think everything is going to be, you know, you know, sort of dependent on what are you trying to do. Yeah, hi, this is this is Leonard. Todd, I think I agree. I think well everyone who spoke really these are very much, you might say information sessions. The most people who turn up who aren't coders, okay, who aren't the maintainers, but have a strong desire to learn about different platforms and their strengths. So, either yes, we do a comparison in terms of the features, how one is different from the other or we just have something like an hours, you might say talk on each of the platforms because there is strong interest. And I can, I can advise you on every of the platforms. I have two small clients. And although they're fabric oriented, but there is talk about sort of and which one should we use. And now just recently launched is the, the new Ethereum standard, whereby the focus is making it an enterprise platform and focusing on privacy now and scalability. So people come into these sessions really need to understand the strengths of the platforms and be able to compare that with Ethereum as well to make that the right decision in terms of a solution base going forward. And that's where the strength of hyper ledger lies in that we have all these various platforms suited for slightly different. But fabric and do both permission and permission less dependent on how the smart contracts are coded and the access that you might say requirements for for that platform. Very important, I think, in the introduction section. Now, if the head fest is two, three days, by the second day we can get into more detail and focus more on you might say the code in hacking aspects of it. But have, but having given people a good ground in the platforms the day before the day zero. And so I think you might say agenda and strategy to follow. So I was actually going to suggest something a bit like that. I was like, you know, why don't we keep the intro day high level, no hands on type of things. And then we can, you know, direct people were interested in getting their hands on, you know, first experience. We did that at the first act fest where we were just helping people get their environments set up right. And we did that as part of the hack fest. I think, you know, I wouldn't mind helping people get set up on fabric on the second day. Yeah, I think, I think, you know, people told me that they need to learn how to start talking about the why right so it's easier if we kind of show them what they can do as a motivation to why they should set up the systems and integrate and try to get stuff in one examples. I think it's important to see the high level first. Yeah, I agree. And it kind of makes a clean separation. The first day is kind of for everybody high level business people just as much as developers. And then as part of the hack fest, you'd say, okay, if there are people want to actually get their hands dirty, we can do that as part of that. The other option could we could we consider having two different tracks for multi days, maybe for two days. You know, one track for the beginners business people and continue starting the first day introduction and gradually increase the level of technical information. Not like just one day. Yeah, I hear you Ben but then again there's only so many people to go around and you can only be in one place at a time. So for instance, you know, if we wanted to do some sort of a collaborative thing between, you know, fabric and sawtooth and indie. So who stays out and helps the, you know, the noobs. Right. If we had enough people I suppose that might be okay but I think some of the projects are going to be somewhat stretched. And that might be somewhat challenging to sort of have that and you know the other thing that I observed. And again, I, you know, I'd like some feedback from, you know, some others but is, and I think I mentioned this when we sort of did a little bit of a retrospective on LA was that the absence of having any sort of working group discussions was also somewhat of a detriment to getting people to come. And so I think we need to sort of bring back a little bit of that balance. I do want to make sure that we're focusing on hacking and cross project, you know, collaboration and so forth. But I also think that it's important that we also get those whose, you know, primary focus is on, you know, whether it's white paper the architecture identity. What have you, maybe they'll have a full, you know, separate meeting that, you know, enabling them to get together and have, you know, have conversations at that level. Not necessarily hacking is also I think important. So I don't know that we're going to solve it all here but you know I think maybe we could take it to the mailing list and people could suggest different approaches. I think the keeping day zero sort of business and sort of high level. What are these things for what can you do with them, what use cases are they useful for where are people using them. Maybe makes the most sense since that does seem to be primarily who's who's showing up for the first day. But I do want to make sure that we do have an opportunity to get people up and running that, you know, for, and also, you know, Tracy, the, you know, submitting your first patch kind of session. I know they're all the projects a little bit different in terms of the tooling but some of this stuff is pretty much the same and getting people familiar with how things work from a, you know, from a tooling perspective what tools are available and where to find out how to connect, I think is also important. If we're going to do an overview of the different hyperledger projects and compare them do we also want to do competitive analysis type of thing against, you know, some of the other main DLT's out there, like Ethereum or something. So if people are here to find out you know why they should use this. Where's that crossing the line. It's walking right up to it. I do think that, you know, again, it's worthwhile to have some of that conversation. I would hope that it wouldn't get into some sort of a bashing. Good point, Mark, but I think also having the work groups have an ability to also share what are they doing, what things are they focused on, what's their status is also I think an important thing for day zero. But you know, like I think I think we have enough mature people, both in the TSC and in our communities right so we should be, you know, when people are bashing sometimes fabric or Ethereum or Bitcoin or whatever right over the years I was always answering politely and, you know, relatively in a calm way right so we don't have to go and bashing Ethereum or any competing project or nobody should even see it as a completion right. We're doing a multi blockchain multi cloud we have a chart out offering. And whenever people are asking me what should I choose and I'm telling them do you need KYC, do you have regulatory constraints do you need to know the identities of the validators. Okay, then let's look at the permission space and then we show you like the three projects that we have in Hyperledger. Like I said I want open access censorship resistance, you know I want everybody to be able to join the network without any constraints is okay let's look at the other stack of you know and I'm not trying to put them like to put them against each other. But it's kind of informative right to tell people, let's look at what you're trying to do and then look at some of the tools that we offer. I totally agree with that Jonathan because it's a strengths we are focusing on and let's not forget by the time Hyperledger Quilt comes out of incubation and becomes a product. We will be integrating will be interoperable with all the different platforms including Ethereum. If there's a use case for that. Well we actually have a theory and we have borough. We have borough as an EVM that is standard so we can talk about the features that Ethereum provides and why solidity or why chain code. Do you have like go lang develop or use the chain code if you would like solidity and you have some legacy or some new code or you know I think we can have a more, I'm being very careful because you know especially in the enterprise space and think about it right we are like one of the smallest companies in the space compared to the conglomerates around us right. So we're really very careful not trying to bash anyone in any way not inviting us verbally but you know I think the more informative we look I think the stronger this organization looks like. Because if you educate people you know it's not necessarily have to be like a commercial offering you can just educate people. Well that's why I said I think we just have to be careful that it doesn't turn to. You know it's very sensitive and it's very you know it's very volatile and people tend to do that. Oh did you say this and you know so how many times you will miss quoted me right so. But anytime you start getting into you know characterizing somebody else's work. And it can sort of you know without them being able to sort of defend it. Even unintentionally it can sort of devolve right it can yeah end up you know ours is great and there sucks right and even if it doesn't you know come out and directly say that it ends up sort of having that sort of a flavor. I don't think we want to necessarily go there. Anyway what we can do to mitigate that risk is to review the material before the hackfest to ensure that we have a sensible level. Because at the end of the day it's communication to the people who turn up. So we can't say we are not going to communicate because we fear the worse. We it's like in any webinar seminar exactly you've got to review the work beforehand and ensure there's a good balance in terms of delivering the information to life level so people can make up their own minds based on the features in the sense of each of the products. Thanks. So there's there's a lot of chat that basically says we should really move on because. And again I did want to sort of suggest let's take it to the mailing list and continue to discuss this we can we can bring it up again next week if we have time. So the other agenda item is the copyright and license policy and put somebody paste that in the chat I know I had it up I thought yes here it is. Tracy you want to go over that. Yeah sure so there's been a lot of questions kind of as we've been going through kind of the license scanning and you know trying to get things set up properly about both license headers as well as copyright headers. And so we've obviously reached out to the folks at the Linux Foundation. Who can you know provide us with some some thoughts on this and you know it made sense to kind of write this up as a place a starting place for us to have a discussion about what this policy looks like. So most of this obviously came from our legal folks at the Linux Foundation. And you know I just kind of wrote it down as a place for us to to have some place to point people when they start asking about you know what sort of copyright should they put into there out of files, as well as kind of the license headers right. So as as we look at this rate that I think that the challenge with the copyright notice that's still out there is just this question of is it is it the right notice for us to put in place right. And I think that the big thing here is that you know copyright is an interesting thing because it made me an initial copyright that comes in that says copyright company foo. Is correct when that first gets put in but as soon as other people start making contributions to that than the copyright really is not correct right because the copyright is based on a lot of different contributions from a lot of different companies and or individuals and so the recommendation obviously is to copyright it as hyper ledger to ensure that you know if there's any sort of issues that occur that the project itself could be responsible for handling any of those sorts of issues. To the point on the copyright though, I think, certainly I would agree that you know if I submitted something and said copyright Chris. And then Tracy and Dan and somebody else come along and make some modifications to that that it's no longer fully my copyright it also belongs to Tracy and Dan, whoever else. But it also says don't remove the copyright notice so are you saying that what we should be doing is as other people add or modify the file that they should add a copyright hyper ledger and its contributors to the existing and then leave it to. If somebody wants to go through and remove the copyright Chris from that file they can they can do that but otherwise there's just two lines one that says copyright, you know, initial contributor, and the other one that says hyper ledger. So I, yeah, no, I specifically put in here in the third sentence right before the copyright line for new files added to hyper ledger repositories. This is the text that we should be including. I didn't say anything about what we should do for our previous files the ones that already exist. Right, I didn't. I really don't think, you know, it's right for us to remove those copyright notices unless, you know, the person who originally submitted it wants to make that change right. So, I'm not a lawyer but I don't know. I mean, maybe we have Mike on I don't know but is that correct or I thought that when you made contributions under Apache retain the copyright. So if I create a new file, shouldn't that as an IBM or shouldn't that be copyright IBM. I'm not a lawyer either Chris. I yeah I'm unfortunately I I do need somebody who has some legal expertise to comment on that it doesn't look like we have anybody on the call today to can do that. I didn't see Mike. Yeah. Yeah, I've actually got an email out to a message out to Mike about this particular topic because I do think it's important for for them to win because that was my understanding again I'm not a lawyer and I could that just could be wrong but I had always been given to understand that when you make a contribution any, you know, whether it's the initial, you know, blurt of code or whether you add a new feature or whatever that you retain the copyright to that code. I totally agree if you could, you know, some others come along and modify it. They should be able to add and then if that at that time we want to make it hyper ledger I don't think that's probably a problem. But yeah, I think we need to get a little bit on that. Yeah, let's at least know the copyright thing maybe we wait until we can get somebody on the call to have this discussion with us right and weigh in on actually what the legal requirements are not perfect. Maybe we maybe we'll end up in the same place where we start talking about the license stuff to stuff is a little bit easier. Yeah, because what we're recommending for new files that we add to the hyper ledger repositories there is just to use the spdx short identifiers inside of the comments of whatever that that file is whether it's a source file or documentation file right. Now this makes no claim as far as Chris your comment on the mailing list about, you know, whether or not you should also add the glyph in the link to the license inside of the actual read the docs documentation right. This is just really for the files itself to make sure that we have a reference for what license it's covered under. And obviously, everybody on this call knows from the hyper ledger charter that we use a patch of two for source code and the CC by four for documentation. So, and then obviously, you know, the license file, the license of the file regardless of how it's specified whether it's specified by the short identifier or text, right, shouldn't be modified unless it's agreed to by all contributors to the file. And then the question I had was also so we've been going through and removing the old prose headers, you know the Apache, you know, sort of to paragraph license header and replacing that with the spdx header doesn't change anything from a licensing perspective. And that's okay. Yeah, it's not necessary obviously to make those changes first because, you know, it's, it's obviously the same license, right. But obviously, you know, there's no we haven't said back to you guys and said, Oh, that was a mistake right don't do that. So, yeah, but definitely not a requirement so I know Sean had a question about like hey we think it's more clear to have the full text. You know, that's, that's fine. Obviously, you know, there is a standard out there called spdx that makes it easier for people just to type in and have one reference to where the license is but, you know, I don't think that's important enough to argue that, you know, if you want to keep the full text. You shouldn't do that. Okay. Any questions, comments, concerns. Yeah, there's a legal organization called the software freedom law council. Yes. I wonder whether they'll have an independent opinion on this. I'll be going to an event in Columbia this evening. I'll try to talk to them about it. Well, I think Mike was the one that helped you with this right tracing and he's a member. Yeah. A member for quite a while. Yeah, so we, this, this is Mike, Mike Dolan who's been helping us kind of come up with the verbiage for this right and kind of where most of this. So, well, I think what we'll do is table the copyright discussion obviously. Call and maybe we'll have him weigh in on this as well. Hey Tracy, this is Dave. So we also have Michi who does all of our crypto compliance audits, right, and is representing us in that regard. We do have that legal resource available. She's the head of SFLC. Yep, correct. Yeah, and so she's been helping me get all of the federal paperwork done for publishing crypto cryptographic software and stuff getting that at all compliance with the government. So I just thought I'd throw it out there. I mean, if we do need more legal help, we could probably ask Michi. We have her on retainer. Hey Tracy, this is Bahua. I also want to ask if we have already had the license header like the Apache license it right how to distribute and use the source code. So is there any additional specific purpose that we have to include the copyrighted declaration? So I don't know the answer to that. I don't know. It's just always been the case that those two things have existed in the header files for the open source code. So I think that's another question that we can definitely ask of Mike. Yeah, thanks. I'm assuming there is a good reason to have it, right? But what that reason is that I don't know. All right, so we need to get feedback certainly in my copyright. Is there any concern at all with using, I know, you know, fabric we've been using the SPDO titles. They work well it's actually easier to search. You know, we wanted to make sure that we, you know, have some something in our CI that assures that there's a license header in every file and SPDX is a hell of a lot easier to check than a bunch of pros. And so we've been we've been using it and sort of transitioning to it anytime the file gets changed we change the header to SPDX makes it easy to manage. So does this mean the SPDX header should be used on documentation like, for example, the architecture working group papers, the, the, you know, identity working group papers, you know, those kind of things. Yeah, any source for that documentation should have that. I know that in the latest architecture, white paper, there was a specific call out about that it was covered under the Creative Commons. So, yeah, we've been trying to include that. Should we also put those in, in like notes and scratch documents or draft stuff as well, like the Google Docs that we have that we're using. I mean, we should put the CCL at least in there. Yes. Yeah, wouldn't hurt. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And I noticed that the wiki has a footer. So I think that covers that. Okay. Any other comments, questions, concerns, if not, we'll give people 24 minutes back. All right. I will talk to you all next week. Thanks for coming in. Thanks everyone. Have a good day everyone. Thanks. Bye.