 We are looking into the state of the nation and the role of the church in the national discourse. So much has been going on before we took that break, we talked about the COVID-19 response and how church behaved, and how our leaders behaved in manner to mitigate the spread of COVID-19. And as we speak, the curve could say it's going down, but the Ministry of Health is encouraging us not to lower our guards yet, until we are at zero. We are now talking to matters corruption where before we went on break a reverend, my kukuriya had mentioned that we need people like Zakiaz who returned what he had taken from the people and now I am directing that very question to my political analyst, private socrates, do we have politicians who are willing to return what they have taken? Because every time someone has been mentioned in a scandal, one I will resign over my dead body and then the communities our people are being targeted. Well, for the short period of time that I have been alive and being able to have a front row seat towards the political and social development of this country, our politicians sadly do not have the moral conviction to come out and say, I have been found culpable of certain social offenses and I declare that I am not fit to hold public office and I am ready to pay. We do not, they are not mature man, look at them. They rather explore the extreme worst case scenarios than come out clean and I think this is occasioned by our previous geopolitical culture. Because we have nations where one would resign because they simply came to parliament session late. They will say, Mr. Speaker, pardon me for the last sittings have been late and my reasons for lateness are unjustified, I am unfit to continue serving this honorable parliament. I beg to step aside and you are like, wow, I mean that is huge. But Kenya, 40 billion in your account and you go, you have the audacity to summon media to your house in Karen and you know, Rwanda and other exotic residences and say how people are after your life went clearly and evidently you have been found culpable. The exact uses in our country may be in the years to come when we change the geopolitical culture and we breathe fresh air into the moral fabric of governance but you know we are also to blame as the larger citizenry. Look at, the guys we elect is a reflection of who we are. So if you elect somebody who is going to steal, right, you really need to be careful who we give power to transact business on our behalf. So we are not yet there. Alright, now finally on this, Reverend you said the pulpit has been the platform. Do you think it's about time the church changed the tactics of approaching these manners of corruption? Of course, because as timing changed, we also need to change with the timing and I think one of the things, another thing that the church needs to do is what I would term as the refusal to fraternize and this is basically where you intentionally refuse to honor in church people whose source of wealth is questionable and you give them total blackout. And I think one of the things that has also entrenched corruption deeply in this nation is because our politics more often than not is ethnic based, not issue based. And when one person has been a child with corruption, the first thing that they do is they retreat into their tribal cocoons and so we have this mutwetu syndrome. I'm the one who stole public parts but when finally EACC catches up with me, I run to my backyard and I say we are being persecuted. We are being followed. We are being destroyed. And I think politicians normally thrive on the ignorance of the people and I think right now we need to make a clear decision where we want this nation to be the next 30, 50 years. If you want to continue with the same trend, imagine it's up to us but we can change that narrative. And another thing that we can also do as a church is just raising a crop of leaders who are accountable, full of integrity and maybe Christian leaders should not shy off from getting into these political and public offices. So that probably they might also, other people might see how leadership is done. You see, we've been fed with a lot of negative issues until there's some people who, when you say something is a church leader, they tell you, ah, we're a pastor, wacha mambo ya siyasa, can I tell you something, this nation is too big, too valuable and too precious to be left to the politicians. Hilari just imagine, leaving Kenya to politicians, the media is not speaking, the church is not speaking, you know, the politicians are just running this country. It will crash and that is the narrative they are always selling to us and so I think even as a church we should do much, much more, you know, in terms of holding people accountable so that of course there has been this debate, especially when there are fundraisings in church and politicians are coming, there's some people who have been feeling that that's like money laundering, you know, the process of corruption are finding their way in church. There has been that debate, it is still ongoing, alright, but I believe the church in modern Africa has played a role in bringing positive change in the society. A perfect case study is a place like South Africa, you know, where clerics like Desmond Tutu, you know, they fought hard to ensure that the apartheid regime comes to an end and it came to an end and so I believe the church is properly placed in raising leaders and I'm just imagining like part of what I do is mentorship and somebody comes to me and says, and then I give them, I tell them it's okay and then we pray for this person and then we campaign even for them. You know, when this person begins to go off the rail, we can call this person and say, man, this is not how we brought you up. Yes, and you really need to change. Number four, we need to start being bold in calling out these people because I think where we have the levels that we have gotten into, man, we really need to call out these people. Let us call as paid as paid, that if you have found stealing public funds, carry your own cross, don't go back to your family, don't go back to your community, don't go back to your people. Deal with it because when you are stealing, you never involved us and by the way you did not even give us a coin. And I think they normally even want to figure nabaya ikua uso. Check this out, you steal public funds and when you are coming to us, you are coming with a chopper. No, leta kakwa migu. And then you are driving posh cars, posh kain, which other posh car do you know? I wish I knew. We are even giving you an opportunity to address us. How dumb can a society be that we have allowed crooks and thieves to set the agenda of this nation? May God really have mercy on us. And I think this is the high time we begin even taking personal responsibility and begin educating people on some of the virtues and qualities to look out for in leaders. I think we also need to look at the track records and personally I am off the view that if you are standing for a public office and you have a case in court relating to corruption, you should not even be cleared. First of all, deal with your mess and then come. But what are we doing? Look at most of our legislators. Actually they have loads and tons of cases. Since they entered politics. And so to clear their names, they get this money in corrupt deals and then they pay some to people and then they are sanitized. Right now we are talking about sanitization. It has happened several times. This matters corruption. I feel each year wanted it to end here. But I feel I still have a pressing issue because we have things to do with the leadership and the kind of message that is being sent as socrates. We have young people who want to be in politics. If the people who have been there, what Machako's governor would say a system that has been there for some time. The young people would go there and still they start getting corrupt. How do we end corruption? If the people were there, the kind of mentorship they are giving us to us, do we have a people right here? I know you interact with most of the young people and the young parliamentarians. Do we have young people right now who feel like when I go there, I'm going to be different? Okay Hilary, two things. One, the tragedy of contemporary society is that the modern youth wants to go to positions of leadership with the mentality of ashtag it's my turn to it. You just feel that now you have secured a seat where the national kek is being served. And you have to take huge chunks of it because you kind of feel that it's your turn and therefore you have to take a lot of money. You have to buy houses, cars, you have to maintain a certain level of lifestyle. That's the first tragedy the contemporary youth is facing. Number two, existing systems do not allow one to maintain their integrity when they get to these offices because of a very not so good history and culture of governance. It goes back to one thing, strengthening institutions tasked with integrity of the country, re-evaluating existing laws that mitigate corruption. As a youth, you have to have it at the back of your mind that when you're going to parliament, the moment you steal money, there is the hangman's news waiting for you, right? You'll be given examples of guys who are in jail for the things they did. Existing leaders, leaders of the day, leaders of today must move with speed and re-evaluate existing laws. They have to put more capacity to existing institutions that fight corruption. And they have to at least jail certain people who've been successfully convicted. That way, we as Africans have been trained to learn by example, right? So that once we see that this government is serious with matters of corruption, we will not dare to steal money because we kind of fear what goes on in jail. So it goes back to policy, it goes back to re-evaluating existing laws. As to that, I think we also need to make some of this size, especially political offices, less lucrative. And I can tell you this for a fact, one of the quickest ways to become rich in Africa is by becoming a politician. Because a politician you're somehow above the low. And you see all this, there is a certain lifestyle that you must maintain surrounded by 20 bodyguards eating in certain restaurants, dressing in a certain way, okay? And so most of the young people, unfortunately these are some of the people who've been there, models. And so to them it is not about service delivery, it's about making it in life. Being them. And so if we can even reduce, like you was talking about policies, if we can reduce the salaries of politicians so that it is only people who are passionate about bringing change and leading who are able to get there. Number two, we also need to re-evaluate on how we do business with the government. I think the rain started beating us when we realized that I can hit a jackpot by just doing business with the government. And that is why all the young people nowadays, they just want to do business with the government. You know, tender premiership. Just open a company, open an account. And then when the government says that we need people to supply this, get some few people inside government. And then supply air. With all due respect, with all the intelligence that the government has, somebody has, they got to supply air to the government and they still go scot free. And so you find that is a person who did not supply anything to the government and they are receiving a cool 100 million chilling. This person has friends. This person has other people who are looking up to him. Do you think they will value hard work? They will value patience. And you see that is why we find ourselves perennially in a cycle of corruption and all that. The government can just be able to seal those loopholes and ensure that even before you trade with the government, there needs to be a certain threshold man. Because that is, I mean it's bad. But that's quite true. But now these are the kind of people we will be voting in. And we can always agree the agencies or the commissions that have been tasked in civics education like the IBC have failed when it comes to the campaign period. They do not train or educate the public on how to vote, who to vote for. The only thing we will be shown is the X and the, but now matters integrity and what have you has been left behind for the media to tell us this and this has been this. And of course at some point the media will not do that. The media might at some point go their own way. But now coming back to the church, how is the church training or educating the members of the public on how to vote for, who, when? Number one, information is power and part of one of the things we are doing is partnering with the government to ensure that there is a proper dissemination of information on important issues so that people may make informed decisions. A perfect case study is the BBI and I can tell you this again for a fact. A majority of Kenyans, they do not know what BBI is all about. They will either support or oppose BBI based on what your favourite politician has said. And that's a fallacy. I remember the last time when we were voting, doing a referendum for the current constitution, there was a very huge divide and quarrels and disagreement in this nation. But one of the things that the government did and I was so happy is that they produced copies because there are some people who are even caught on camera saying, ah, if so and so has read this document and he has said it is good, then it is good, I don't need to read it. That's madness. But again, that is when the church partnered with the government and its voice was heard and the government produced some copies. You remember? And people are given some copies of the constitution to read so that you may make your own decisions. So part of the thing that we are doing right now is even partnering and appealing to the government that on matters which are of national importance, why don't you bring this information down to the local muanaichi so that he may participate in that thing. And then we are also using all our platforms including the media, internet, TV, radio, to even educate. We have a role of educating. Number two, we also have a role. Nowadays we do not shy off. If we feel as a church, something or some sections of certain documentaries, but we tell people that we feel as a church, this is not the right thing to do. It does not conform to what the scripture says, it is not good for a nation and it is not good for this society. That is partly what we are doing.