 Good morning. You are with the Vermont House Government Operations Committee. We are taking some testimony this morning again from some other folks who are impacted by the executive order, proposing the creation of an agency of public safety. So we're going to focus a little bit this morning on the E911 board. And so we have Barbara Neal and Roger Marcu with us this morning. Welcome and thank you for being here. So for the benefit of those of us who have not had a chance to tour and understand what the E911 system is, I'm hoping that one of you can give sort of a virtual tour. Who are you? Where are you located? What do you do? How do Vermonters experience your services and just keep in mind that we've got a couple members of the committee who are brand new to the legislature and several more who are new to the Government Operations Committee. So we'd love to start with a high-level overview before we dive into the the changes or differences that it would make if you were a part of an agency of public safety. So thank you and welcome. Thank you. Thank you very much. I think as we planned, Roger, I'll start with that overview. So good morning. Thank you, Madam Chair. For the record, I am Barbara Neal, Executive Director of the Enhanced E911 Board. And I'm here today to talk about the executive order that creates an agency of public safety and includes the Enhanced E911 Board in that structure. I was asked this morning to include in my testimony the overview and current operations and operational structure of the E911 Board, including the responsibilities of myself and the Board staff, also including an explanation of what happens with an incoming call to dispatch and beyond, and also a review of the new structure under the executive order. I'm going to do my best to cover all of those topics in sufficient detail. And I'll begin with, as the Chair requested, this high-level overview of the E911 Board itself, which starts with a little bit of background and history. I do have about probably 15 minutes or so worth of comments on the overview and operational structure. So if need be, interrupt me, and we can go in a different way. But I think it is important not only for your new members, but I don't know that I've ever testified recently anyway in front of this committee. So I did provide a presentation, which I believe is on your website. That might be helpful for you to follow along as we go through the next 15 or 20 minutes. So of that presentation, I'm on page two. The Enhanced E911 Board was created by the legislature in 1994 as the single governmental agency responsible for statewide Enhanced E911. And it's important to remember that prior to 1994, prior to that time, most Vermonters did not have access to any level of 911 service. The intent of the legislation was to create a statewide 911 system that would serve all Vermonters and allow emergency responders to locate callers more quickly and efficiently. The 911 Board was made responsible for the design, oversight, and operational management of the statewide 911 system. So to that end, the Board developed and implemented policy system designs, standards, and procedures related to the statewide 911 system and continues to do so today. And as required by statute, the 911 Board consults with various state agencies and local community service providers to meet these responsibilities. So currently, the 911 Board or the 911 Board today is an independent Board not currently attached to any other agency or department in state government. That of course would change when and if this executive order is implemented. The 911 Board itself consists of nine Board members appointed by the governor, one each representing state, local, and county law enforcement, emergency medical service, fire service, municipalities, and three members of the public. The governor also appoints the Board Chair and Vice Chair and Roger Marcos with us today as the Board is the current Board Chair. The Board is required to meet quarterly and also call special or emergency meetings as needed. So the Board hires an executive director who happens to be me at this point in time. And there are also nine additional full-time Board staff members and one time at one part time administrative support staff person. I'll cover their responsibilities in a bit more detail on another slide. But generally, the staff member responsibilities fall into three categories. That's IT management, GIS database administration, and training and communications. And a word about funding, the 911 system is funded solely through the Vermont Universal Service Fund, which is a 2.4% charge on retail telecommunication sales in Vermont. The basically that means that the system is paid for by those who have telecommunications devices. The statute, our enabling statute prohibits the use of Vermont Universal Service Fund appropriation for non 911 operations. And currently the 911 Board receives no general funds. In FY 21, as an example of our usual budget, our appropriation was about 4.8 million salaries, benefits for the Board staff, people accounted for about 22% of that. Our system provider contract and other third party contracts accounted for 55% of that about. And our fund for PSAP, which is Public Safety Answering Point Reimbursement, which is an arrangement we have, I'll talk about this in a minute too, for call handling services accounted for about 22% of that budget. It is important tonight to note, though I know it's not the main topic for today, but there is an ongoing and unresolved revenue shortfall problem in the Vermont Universal Service Fund, which is impacting the 911 enhanced special fund budget. It currently this year, there was a decrease in the amount that we expected from our appropriation in FY 20, and those reductions are continuing today. I can, that would take up our whole time if we were to discuss that, but I just want you to be aware that there is that concern about the ongoing problem with the Vermont Universal Service Fund. And finally, as part of the high level overview, it's important to know that the 911 Board today does not have oversight over dispatch agencies or their operations or emergency response agencies. So I'm moving now, if you're following along to slide three, which shows you the current organizational chart for the 911 Board and Board staff members. So you see depicted at the top there, the governor is appointing the members of the enhanced 911 Board itself, that nine member Board, and the Board Chair and Vice Chair. The Board is responsible for establishing policy, adopting standards and rules. They have the ability or the authority to enter into contract and take all actions necessary to ensure effective oversight and management of the statewide 911 system. So the policies and directives that are set by the Board are implemented by the executive director and the Board staff members. So my position, the executive director, the statute authorizes the Board to appoint an executive director with the approval of the governor to execute the Board's mission policies and directives. And my responsibilities on a day to day basis are to provide leadership and direction for all of the activities associated with the operation of the statewide 911 system and programs. I have day to day direction of the Board's operations and supervision of the nine member staff, consultants and our contractors. I am responsible for the establishment of system performance metrics, measurements, and compliance. I develop and manage the annual budget and I serve as the Board's primary spokesperson to constituent groups, telecommunications providers, local state, federal, governmental and legislative officials, the media and the public. So that's my general responsibilities and moving on to the staff member responsibilities. You see on the, actually it's kind of in the middle of the organizational chart, we have the IT system department, the IT management department is really what that is, that consists of an IT manager and an IT specialist. They are responsible for the supervision and management of the 911 system itself and our contracted system provider. That oversight and management is critical to ensuring the 24x7x365 availability of the statewide 911 system. And the Board's IT staff have the technical expertise to understand and evaluate the work of our system provider. Their name, by the way, the system provider is indigital and they ensure the IT team working with indigital ensures that the system is up an operational 24x7. Also, it's important to know that the next generation 911, it's also referred to as NG911 industry nationally is rapidly evolving. The end goal of the NG911 initiative to move everyone to an NG911 system is really to have a nationwide system of systems, 911 systems to improve communications and all that. So an important part of the Board's IT management responsibility is to keep a keen eye on that quickly changing industry to help ensure that Vermont's 911 system remains relevant and meets ever changing needs of both 911 callers and 911 call takers. So we are actively involved at the national level in those kinds of conversations and Vermont is respected at the national level for our work in next generation 911. If you need more details on the specifics of the of the IT team, you can let me know, but I'm going to move on to the next category, which is the GIS database administration staff. There are four staff members in this group, and they are responsible for the development and maintenance of multiple databases that are critical to the operation of the NG911 system. So these staff members work closely and on a daily basis with town officials and telecommunications providers in Vermont to ensure the validity of the databases we maintain and the accuracy of the data, which is most prominently used in call routing 911 call routing and also in the mapping system the mapping display that is available to call takers when a call excuse me when a call is received. So there's there's four well multiple key databases so geographic information system data that's mapping data for the state of Vermont, telephone or automatic location, the alley database, those are basically the telephone records for the state. There is a discrepancy database to manage corrections to those critical databases, a master street address guide, an emergency service zone boundary database, an emergency service agency database, and finally the citizen's assistance registry for emergencies. So that's a lot of words. My point is there's a lot of databases all of which are critical to the proper functioning of the 911 system and ultimately getting responders to the site of to the location of an emergency quickly. So having this accurate GIS data helps ensure just that Vermont is nationally recognized for the extent and quality of our GIS data. There are over four dozen entities in Vermont right now that utilize the data collected and managed by our GIS team, including towns regional planning commissions and other public entities. So within GIS database, we have one GIS database administrator to GIS technicians, one works in the field, one works in the office, and a data integrity analyst. And I'm happy to go into more detail on those, most likely, I think at another time. But if you have questions on that, you can let me know. Finally, moving on to the training and communications department, I'm going to call it. Typically, there are two members of the training and communications team. We had a retirement about a year ago. And we have been carrying that vacancy since then. And our plan to continue to carry that vacancy do in part to the budgetary issues that that we are facing with the Universal Service Fund shortfalls. That team, which is now reduced by 50%, is responsible, though, still for the certification, recertification, and continuing education of approximately 10911 call takers employed by the six public service, public safety answering points around the state. That team is also responsible for the board's quality control program relating to how calls are handled and ensuring that they're handled in accordance with our standards and procedures, public education and outreach initiatives, and so on. So some of that, some of those, especially public education and outreach initiatives have taken a bit of a hit because we're carrying this vacancy. But that is the purpose of the training and communications team. And finally, we do have two administrative support people one full time, one part time, who provide general office administrative functions, they support all of those other departments, they administer our 911 compliance grant program, provide general office functions, respond to legal subpoenas for 911 call recordings, and the administrative assistant serves also as the clerk to the 911 board. And to wrap up the thoughts that I have around the staff members and our responsibilities, the 911 board staff is small but effective. The board IT, GIS, and executive staff are frequently asked to provide guidance and information to other jurisdictions in various stages of NG, that's that next generation 911 implementation. And it's the commitment first of the 911 board and its staff to a standards-based approach to the statewide 911 system that has helped ensure the reliable, resilient system capable of serving Vermonters and our visitors for over 20 years. Now, what's not on that screen, and I'm still on slide three, is call taking services. So it's important to know that the staff at the 911 board do not actually take the 911 calls. The board sets the standards and policies and requirements for call handling, but we do not actually take the calls. So if you move on to the next slide, slide four, you will see what we call our PSAP, that's public safety answering point configuration. Current configuration. So the 911 board partners with five law enforcement agencies in Vermont for 911 call handling services. Those five agencies operate a total of six public safety answering points where 911 calls are answered. I always note at this point in this conversation that in addition to these six public safety answering points, there are 50 some odd dispatch agencies who do not take 911 calls and over whom the 911 board does not have jurisdiction. So as I mentioned in the beginning, we have no purview over dispatch agencies or their operations. So each of the PSAPs that you see on that map on slide four are responsible for answering calls from a primary catchment area and also responsible for handling overflow calls from all other PSAPs. So that means that if a call taker is not available in a PSAP to answer a call, maybe they're on another call or they're tied up with another emergency, the call will see of the call will seamlessly and automatically flow to another available call taker anywhere else in the state. Each of these PSAPs has the same when you when we are speaking of 911 call taking services has the same training, the same equipment and the same resources to get that job done as every other PSAP has. So the board has a call handling services agreement, which includes associated reimbursement terms outlined in a formal memorandum of understanding with each of these agencies. So currently, the Department of Public Safety operates two of the public safety answering points. One of them is in Williston, one is in Westminster. In 2020, these two PSAPs answered about 64% of the total 911 call volume for the state and between the two facilities they house 16 of the state's 24 911 workstations. And then you also see listed or shown on the map for regional public safety answering points, which are operated by the Hartford, Shelburne and St. Albans Police Department and the Lamoille County Sheriff's Department. These PSAPs regional PSAPs in combination answer the remaining 36% of total 911 call volume that was the number for 2020. And each of them houses two funded 911 workstations. In addition, Lamoille and St. Albans also house two unfunded 911 positions that were put in place originally for training and continue to be available to them for call taking. So the point of these six PSAPs is geographic diversity. The geographic diversity of multiple PSAPs operated by distinct agencies is wise. Not only does it lessen the impact of human or natural caused events that could impact call taking capability in the state, it also aligns with the intent of the enabling legislation that the 911 system be a state and local partnership. So that is the high level history of how we got to six PSAPs. Technology does allow 911 calls to be answered at any one of those six PSAPs regardless of where the call originated. And it also allows all call takers as I mentioned access to the same technical resources, training and equipment. Barb, I have a question from Bob Hooper right now. Okay. Thank you, Madam Chair. Barb, are the non DPS statement or stations 24 hour? Yes, they are. All of the all of the PSAPs are 24 hours and and are required in that memorandum of understanding to maintain a sufficient level of staffing to answer the metric is 90% of their primary catchment area calls. So yes, they're available 24 seven. Thank you. Okay. Moving on and on on slide five of the presentation, just a quick overview of our 2020 statistics. There were just under 210,911 calls handled at those six public safety answering points in 2020, which was up very slightly from the year before. Interesting to note that in that call volume total, there was not a significant increase in 911 calls due to COVID that we can attribute to COVID. 71% of our 911 calls come from wireless devices. That's up a little bit from 2019. It takes us about five seconds to answer your call and we stay on the line with you for about two minutes providing asking required key questions about your emergency and then providing free arrival instructions when appropriate to help prevent the situation from getting worse before responders get to the scene. Vermont was one of the first to implement statewide text to 911 capability that was back in 2014. We received last year about 340 text to 911 messages, which is down 21% from 2019. I'm not quite sure what to attribute that to though some people have anecdotally suggested that because so many people were not commuting during 2020, we're working from home. Perhaps there were less people on the road texting in emergencies from the field, not that they should be texting while driving, but that was one thought on why that might have happened. Text to 911 though is critical to allowing access to the deaf and hard of hearing community for accessing 911 in the manner that they're used to communicating and is also important in situations like domestic violence or other events where making a voice call to 911 could endanger the caller or escalate the situation and also in some cases there's enough signal to get through a text message to 911 when there might not be the ability to get a voice call through. So text to 911 will serve a very important purpose in continuing to do so. So can I interrupt you for a question from Hal Colston? Yes. Thank you Madam Chair and thank you Barbara for your testimony. So what percentage of your calls are due to persons having a mental health crisis? Is that able to? Yeah, well that's a very good question. I'm afraid I don't have the answer. Probably the best way to get that information is to speak with actual response agencies. So we don't keep track of the nature of each and every 911 call as it's received and we're not even able to determine with much certainty whether an individual call without listening to the call without listening to each of those calls what the nature of each individual call was. If the call had to be transferred to a particular agency, Police Fire or EMS, we could draw some conclusions that the emergency fell in one of those categories. But I don't have information about the number of 911 calls that are related to mental health needs. Okay. Thank you. Peter Anthony. Thank you very much and thank you Ms. Neal for your informative review. I sort of related to Representative Coulson. I had a disagreement or a discussion about policy with a colleague and the reduction or summary of that discussion was there really only two outreach telecommunication outreach points for help 2-1-1 and 9-1-1. And following up on Hal's question, it occurs to me if the evolution of our use of the dispatch system E911 moves towards peeling off some calls which are in quotes non-criminal, non-emergency, not suitable for emergency response, which I gather some estimates are up to 30% maybe half. So if we move to try to filter those, I guess, what is it? And by the way, I look, eagerly look for your response about the creation of the agency because I'm wondering how fleet of foot you could be if you were then moving the direction of filtering calls. So some go to emergency dispatch, other goes to other support services or intervention services which are not PD based. Right. So at this point in time, what the responsibility of the 9-1-1 call taker would be is to connect the caller to the appropriate emergency responder. So in very general terms, we transfer only to police, fire or EMS. And then those responders and response agencies who would likely be on scene or would have a longer engagement with a caller would be able to determine what other resources that caller or that situation might need, whether it's engaging with mental health supporters or other support agencies. That determination is made at the response responder level rather than the 9-1-1 call taking level at this point. I don't know, kind of related to this topic though, I'm reminded that the FCC has designated or is in in the process of establishing a three digit code for the national suicide prevention hotline. I believe the code is going to be 988 which would connect callers in need of that intervention with trained professionals to help with that crisis. So in a sense, those calls that might otherwise come into 9-1-1 may end up on this other more dedicated service in the future. So I'm not sure if that really answers your question, but there are movements afloat to get suicidal callers more direct help. Madam Chair, I saw the Board Chair's hand up. Okay. Go ahead, Roger. Thank you. Hello, everybody. Representative Anthony, the primary job of the call takers and then the first responders after that is to just make sure these folks are safe. I don't know the number of folks that really don't need to call into 9-1-1 when they could call an emergency mental health number or what have you, but I know that we have the PSAPs all have these emergency numbers for it could be somebody that's homeless that's out in the below zero night. So we typically try to help those folks get immediate access to those numbers and vector them to the right people. But I suspect that the majority of the calls coming into the PSAPs are indeed emergency in nature. The suicide prevention hotline there's often that a police officer or EMS folks go and help with the initial stages of that crisis until we can get them to the right people. So that's kind of our priority to determine how many folks call in that really don't need to call in to 9-1-1 and go right to a mental health facility. I think the way that we would have to do that is to pull all of the EMS calls and police calls and then actually review each case number manually to see what was the nature of that call. So it's nothing that we can do with a keystroke of a computer. Hopefully that's helpful. Thank you. Thank you. All right Barb I guess we're back to you. Okay. So in the presentation I'm moving switching gears a little bit now and I am on slide six. So I was asked to provide an explanation of what occurs from an incoming 9-1-1 call to dispatch and beyond. And I'm hoping that this slide will be helpful and not introduce any any confusion. But first it's really helpful to have a clear understanding of the distinction between 9-1-1 call taking and dispatch services. 9-1-1 call taking and dispatching services are two separate functions each providing a unique service using different and specialized equipment and networks. Each function call taking and dispatch has specific training and each has different funding in governance. So 9-1-1 call taking in Vermont has funding in governance from the 9-1-1 board what we're talking about today. Dispatch agencies even the dispatch functioning function at our public safety answering points are funded and managed at a more local level local county or state level but not statewide. So there's different governance in place for the dispatch functions. So that said when a 9-1-1 call is placed the caller's telephone service provider maybe it's consolidated maybe it's AT&T or Verizon Wireless that service provider delivers that call to the NG 9-1-1 system that the 9-1-1 board overseas and manages that system processes and selectively routes the call to the correct PSAP one of those six facilities I talked about earlier and delivers the system delivers the caller's location data and provides the geospatial mapping to the call taker showing where the caller is it also provides the call taker with the current emergency I'm sorry the correct emergency response agency based on the caller's location. So the call taker assesses the emergency using board approved call handling protocols and procedures and is responsible for connecting the caller to the appropriate dispatch agency for the needed responders. In some cases but not always the 9-1-1 call taker also happens to be that appropriate dispatch agency and uses their dispatch resources to alert responders. So if you're looking at that that depiction on slide six the top one shows what I just described a caller dials 9-1-1 a 9-1-1 call taker answers the call at a 9-1-1 workstation that call taker also happens to be the dispatcher for the needed responder so they turn to their dispatch equipment maybe at the same workstation and notify the responder by radio typically I could also be by phone and then the responders have the information they need to go to the scene. A second thing that can happen and this happens about 50 percent of the time 50-ish percent of the time someone calls 9-1-1 but this is at the bottom of that page the call is answered at a 9-1-1 workstation that 9-1-1 call taker is not the dispatcher for the needed responder so the call taker will transfer the call and the caller to the appropriate dispatch agency at a different location and then that dispatcher at that second location uses their equipment training and resources to notify the appropriate responder. So a good example of that second scenario is in at the Williston PSAP a caller from Burlington will have their 9-1-1 call routed to the Williston PSAP where it will be answered by a 9-1-1 call taker. That 9-1-1 call taker does not dispatch Burlington resources instead they transfer the call and the caller to the Burlington emergency response agency police fire or EMS and that dispatcher notifies responders. So there's two different ways that a 9-1-1 call can be handled and they happen about 50 percent of the time in each case. So I'm hopeful that's answered the question about what happens when you call 9-1-1. Let's move on and I'm kind of looking for questions too but to our current key initiatives I thought it'd be helpful for you to know that in October of 2020 following a three-month delay related solely to COVID-19 the board and our new system provider in digital successfully implemented a new statewide NG 9-1-1 system for the state of Vermont. So the partnership within digital is good for Vermont they are a company that is focused solely on NG 9-1-1 systems they are forward-thinking proactive company that we think will serve the board and Vermont well and keep us at the where we need to be as a leader in NG 9-1-1 implementations. We've also had some recent rulemaking that I wanted to mention in July of 2019 the board adopted a rule all the enterprise communication system rule which requires specific and granular location information be delivered to a 9-1-1 call taker when calls are made from multi-line telephone systems. So these are systems that are in place a lot in schools, hospitals, hotels, any any big campus type place that has one telephone system with multiple extensions. This helps responders locate individuals in an emergency in those larger settings and in just recently actually just a few weeks ago at the January board meeting the board adopted a new outage notification rule for originating service providers and this is a rule that requires all telephone service providers wireline, wireless, and VoIP to notify the 9-1-1 board when their service is out and their customers are unable to reach 9-1-1 and there are certain thresholds that must must be met to require a report. Those thresholds are very granular and they are we are the second state in the nation to implement these much lower thresholds for outage reporting for wireless and VoIP companies, the national companies which will serve Vermonters well. We will know sooner when there is an outage impacting their ability to contact 9-1-1. That rule becomes effective actually in just a couple weeks on February 4th and we expect to begin receiving these notifications soon after that. We also have we are just entering the final 9-1-1 compliance grant program application period. This is a program that provides matching grants up to $25,000 to support telecommunications system upgrades in Vermont public schools so that they can meet the requirements of that enterprise communication system rule that I mentioned a few minutes ago. That's been a successful program and we have when we started that program the legislature authorized that program in 2016 only 20% of Vermont public schools were able to send this granular location information by the end of 2021 when a few more projects are completed we will be approaching 85% of schools capable of doing that so it's been a good success. Finally we also have what is called the Care Program Citizens Assistance Registry for Emergencies. We partner with Vermont Emergency Management, the Vermont Department of Health, 211 in the United Ways of Vermont to create this program which allows citizens who would need special assistance in an extended power outage or an isolation or evacuation event to be identified in advance in the 9-1-1 GIS data and that information is made available to responders when circumstances weren't widespread events weren't. So the new structure as we see it or understand it under the executive order would move the 9-1-1 board and its staff into a communications operational unit within the division of support services at an agency of public safety. That communications unit would also include the state operated PSAPs so that those are the two Department of Public Safety PSAPs that are being referenced here and radio services unit that exists already at the Department of Public Safety. The board is expected to remain intact under the executive order and to retain responsibility and authority for the statewide 9-1-1 system as outlined in statute. The goal is to unify emergency communications functions to support cohesive coordinated strategy for emergency communications moving forward. So getting these functions of emergency communications in the same room or at the same table on a on a consistent basis and with a structure and framework of an agency around it the hope as I understand it is to move all of those functions forward together moving forward. And that is the very last that is all I have except for my contact information on the last slide. So I am happy to answer questions or share if Mark who may have additional input at this point too. John Gannon has a question. Thank you Madam Chair. So I believe you said your revenue comes from what is the universal? Vermont Universal Service Fund. Okay. So would those funds be restricted to funding E-9-1-1 under this new agency of public safety? Well the statute currently states what the universal service funds can be used for and what the fund can be when it when those funds are transferred to the enhanced 9-1-1 special fund what those funds can be used for and it is in support of the statewide 9-1-1 system it does indicate in statute already that it is not to be used for dispatch functions and I have the words right in front of me but the dispatch functions and not for emergency response functions meaning emergency responder radios and vehicles that type of thing. Okay. So are those funds used to help with the PSAPs? We do provide from those funds a what we call our PSAP reimbursement for call taking services. So out of that 4.8 million dollar budget 1,080,000 is set aside and that figure hasn't changed for many many years but 1,080,000 is set aside to help offset the cost of providing the call taking service in the PSAPs. So it is supporting the call taking functionality not the dispatch functionality. Okay. So and that's all six PSAPs get some of that fund? They do. It's divided up based on the number of 9-1-1 workstations that they house and also there's a component to the reimbursement calculation that's based on the percentage of primary call catchment areas that they're answering. So how well are they staffing in order to answer the primary catchment call areas? So in the cases where the PSAP is also serving as the dispatch how do you determine how to divide up the money? It can't be used for dispatch but isn't the same individual who's taking the 9-1-1 call also dispatching? Well we base it on the number of 9-1-1 workstations in each PSAP which is equipment we provide so we know how many positions are there and then we also base it on the 9-1-1 call volume their dispatch activity. Let me step back the 9-1-1 call volume which we can measure because we operate that system is also used to calculate that value. We don't take into account any of their dispatch activities so the calculation is based really only on the 9-1-1 data. What they use those funds for and maybe this is the crux of your question is not specified is not required in our disbursement but the amount that they receive is based on their 9-1-1 call taking service. Okay thank you for that and one final question were you consulted about this executive order? So yes back in 2019 the legislature required that the Secretary of Administration make a recommendation as to what agency the 9-1-1 board should be moved to and in the development of her recommendation I had multiple conversations with Secretary Young and provided her information much like I provided you today about our current operations and recommendations that I would have the board would have for any changes in government and how to of course our concern is to protect the integrity of the 9-1-1 program and so we provided some input on that and I do see that reflected in the framework of this executive order. I see many of those recommendations there so yes we were consulted in that part of the discussion and then we were more recently you know made aware that that the executive order decision was being finalized and and so on so and we've begun discussions with Commissioner Sherling and Roger Mark who has joined me in those discussions to how this actually might be implemented as we move forward. So you said some of your recommendations found their way into the executive order what recommendations did not find their way into the executive order? You know I would have to go back I would say overall the recommendations were included in that order or addressed in that order and I'm going to Roger you disagree with any any fact I don't think anything significant was missed. No the structure of the of the ask was not what our thoughts were about should the 9-1-1 system be moved it was you know where in state government do we think it belongs so that's what we concentrated on. Okay well thank you very much. Let me see if I can ask that in a slightly different way are do you have any lingering concerns any gaps that you are currently experiencing that you worry might be exacerbated or any improvements you had hoped to make that you that you have questions about your ability to improve upon in the proposed structure? Well I can I can put my two cents in here the the integrity of the program the the sole mission that we have had for the past 20 some odd years I think has been instrumental in making the 9-1-1 program in Vermont a success. I do think you know we have an independent board is certainly one governance model that works that has worked well in Vermont but there are other models and that also work well and align with even national recommendations for governance of 9-1-1 and emergency communications and those those are incorporated into this executive order as well so personally I have the usual reaction you might have to change right that what if this and what if that I can say that I might our conversations with Commissioner Schirling have been productive and I think that I will certainly bring to that conversation and advocate for the continued integrity of this program moving forward but I don't have any particular concerns based on the conversations I've had with the Commissioner that that is not also his goal and I'm now going to see if if Roger would like to add to that so I've been around for I've been 41 years in law enforcement and and I'm not particularly a real technical person but I'm a customer service kind of person my issues are that through the years that this has been talked about is that the system this is working this is a part of state government that is working well and it's always and I imagine you all go through this is the unintended consequences of what you do now we had two commissioners ago we really had a disaster they closed down Derby they closed down Rutland I believe it was without any input from from 9-1-1 and that impacted us greatly so and just to follow that thread they closed down you know a PSAP where it was much easier to get personnel to recruit personnel to work because of the unemployment in those areas where in Williston they're having a difficult time maintaining staffing there and they even had to I think during COVID had to to to ask the partners us the locals to do more work which was fair but so what I'm concerned about is Commissioner Schirling wants the statute to stay in place he wants little change he wants just to to have this in name but to have us do our work the way that we've been doing it and the board would remain intact the executive board but in an advisory capacity to the secretary and I don't have a problem with that as long as the next commissioner and the next governor and what have you do not deviate too much for that my concern is quite frankly is maintaining our budget and when it's time to cut we don't cut essential what we feel is essential positions that have helped make us successful so you know those are the the high level you know the high level concerns I have but you know it's the will of the legislature and if this is ratified and or if it continues to go the way it is and the agency of public safety is created in April and we are absorbed we will be good team players and we bring a lot to the table and the commissioner has some good ideas right now about integrating other parts of state communication in in that in that new program so and so that those are kind of the concerns and thoughts that I have about the the integration thanks Roger Peter Anthony has a question thank you very much I sort of following on John in the sense that I want a contrast between the current avenue of redress and what it might be and I'll give you the context in a moment what the redress might be under the new superstructure and what I'm curious about are two things you mentioned you and this is as Neil obviously we're very proud of the fact that you're pretty sure you have adequate redundancy and backfilling and so on between the centers and the dispatches who can do double duty on occasion in certain locations I'm wondering if that redundancy has ever been stressed to the point of worry and then the second part of that is what if it is where would you go to whom would you turn saying I'm afraid the board has come to the conclusion our redundancy is inadequate we need to blah blah and then whatever the remedy is that's one scenario I'm curious about now versus under an agency model the second comment you made which I found very interesting is you now have a rule where all the telecom providers are to notify you whenever their systems are out and I guess my question is when you begin to have a problem with one of your contract contracting telecom providers and they violate that rule where do you go with that observation complaint after the board says yep you violated the rule three times and you're out what's the meaning of out and how would it differ if you're a solo act as opposed to part of the agency so it's it's those two kind of stress I like to always explore stresses on systems you know where where is where's the contrast in the current environment versus the agency so um on your first question and the redundancy question are you're referring to like redundancy of personnel of manpower versus the technical redundancy of the system am I correct in that well I I'm not sure there's a difference I mean I suppose it's probably personnel I'm assuming you have circuits to spare but you you paint either picture the point is if the redundancy that you planned turns out to be inadequate where do you go with that right so so um okay so redundancy of personnel what the the geographic diversity of the six p saps that are in place now um helps us with that redundancy concern um because if one center or one or a call taker or call takers within a center is not available for any reason the system will automatically deliver that call to another available call taker anywhere in the system so there is some um there is some redundancy there and a support of each piece up to all of the other five built in there um and have you asked has it ever come to the point of worry yes so during tropical storm Irene the Rutland the then Rutland public safety answering point which was our second busiest call taking call center in terms of call volume had to be evacuated and we had not the same system in place then but we had components of of the system in place which allowed for these calls to move from one piece up to the other and when Rutland was evacuated as far as 911 calls were concerned um the there was there were no calls missed the system um continued to operate properly and routed the calls that would have been destined destined for Rutland into the remaining public safety answering points so it was stressed in tropical storm Irene um I don't remember the exact call volume but it was our busiest day ever um during that event the system um behaved the way it was supposed to in terms of both technical redundancy and the manpower redundancy um and another time of worry really occurred during as the COVID-19 situation was was ramping up and Roger the board chair directed us to make sure that we had plans in place um to ensure 911 call taking if that illness were to sweep through one of the public safety answering points which would be that could be potentially catastrophic to to that particular PSAP um and so we developed a little bit more detailed plans for what might happen if if a PSAP were to be down for that particular reason um we built up a emergency operation center within the 911 board office using our training positions and put those plans in place um we did not have to exercise any of those extra steps fortunately um largely because each of the individual PSAPs implemented their own very stringent restricted access policies not allowing people in that weren't essential um so how that would change in in an agency of public safety as I understand it the board is going to retain its role and its authority to make policy decisions or give directives like like I was given when COVID ramped up to to um support the proper operation of the 911 system so I would suspect that that role would remain intact and that recommendation would be delivered to the agency secretary and implemented again by the 911 board and its staff um so if things are to operate the way I understand they're going to I think there would be there would be um little change in that is my expectation um what happens in reality though I guess is a is a different story and that maybe is one one of the concerns um moving forward Roger do you want to speak to and let me say one more thing right now the 911 board has always supported the the PSAP configuration which includes the two department of public safety answering points and the four regional ones um and and those are um recommended and supported for a variety of reasons and I have not heard the board um move towards wanting to change that configuration so I would expect that that mindset would remain um now I can't speak um what steps the board might recommend later on so maybe I should pass it off to the board chair now uh Roger um so I I don't you know the way the conversations have gone with the commissioner is is you really we won't see a difference in the day-to-day operations uh me as the board chair right now I answer to the you know I go to the governor if I have a problem so my understanding now is is that I may go to the deputy commissioner uh or excuse me the deputy secretary so as always it's going to depend on the quality of leadership in the future that that is in the department or the agency of public safety if you have you know a shortfall in in cash uh because this has happened to us before um we don't want the 911 system to start uh being looked at as a cash cow sort of speak and uh there was a one time here several years ago where uh the administration previous administration I think it was took a million dollars out of our out of our system and gave it to the to the department of public safety so the integrity of this system and and and whatever we can do all of us can do to maintain that integrity is is the most important part and I'm I'm somewhat reassured to know that the statutes in which we operate are going to remain in place but uh in terms of um redundancy there's one thing that we have not mentioned we have thought this redundancy issue through down to the point of if 911 fails we have a seven-digit number that we will tell the public uh um you know we'll get word to the public through social media through radios call this 911 uh call this seven-digit number which will come into the PSAPs and will continue to operate uh as usual because a 911 system went down and in two or three states uh during the Christmas bombing in Nashville we've thought of this a few years ago so um I don't I don't really I'm hoping upon all hope that nothing changes nothing's impacted in the citizens of the state are not going to uh receive any less than the the great service that they've received up to this point. If I could add just one one more thing on that and I think I mentioned this in my presentation so the board the 911 board has come been committed all of these years um to um implementing best practices and industry standards for all aspects of the 911 system from our technical um components to our database components to our training components and that commitment to those industry best practices and standards is what's made this program successful and so my hope would be and I don't have any evidence to the contrary on this but my hope would be that with any governance change that same commitment would be maintained um into into a new framework um I think that it is it is a critical piece of making a successful 911 system um and one that serves reliably. Bob Hooper has a question. Thank you again Madam Chair um I'd like to really thank both presenters today they've caused me to uh to see a second red flag in this proposal um I've known Roger's name for probably a decade or two as having been somebody who's been there done that in state government so I appreciate his candid uh response to the question it seems like we have an autonomous board now that is working and particularly with the issues that that I know from my time in state government I have my personal friend of mine ran the call center in Williston and the mandatory overtime the lack of staffing uh brings very true for the decision-making process that said let's put this thing in Williston as opposed to someplace where indeed there was a need for employment and that was a situation it was different but taking an autonomous board and moving it under an agency is a really strange sort of structure particularly when that board has a function of backfunding the agency to some degree that they're going to be under and there seems to be a lot of conversation now with I would expect or I would hope or I suspect that and there are a lot of things in this particular proposal that are not ironed out and it's causing me to have great reservation to the idea going forward thank you both for your candid evaluations thank you Madam Chair thank you sir Sam Lafave has a question thank you Madam Chair and thank you both for presenting today um as someone who uh previously took the 911 calls as a responder and who has called 911 I greatly appreciate the services that um are provided and just just so I have a clear understanding do you feel that if this does not if the if this does not go through do you have what you need to continue working as you are now or do you feel that the recommendations that you put through would put you at a better place or do you feel how you are now is okay Marv I'll if you don't mind I'll go first um um we're uh we're we're we're can do if if it's the legislators will legislatures will that we go to the Department of Public Safety we'll find the glass half full which is we'll be part of a larger agency sometimes that's not always great but it makes a lot of sense to incorporate all of the the communications together I I understand that if we stay the way we are now our biggest um challenge right now is we're going to be short 600 uh to a million a million dollars uh because universal service fund there's not enough people paying taxes um as that was designed back in the mid 90s that's changed now a lot has changed in all of those years so that's going to be our biggest challenge and the other piece of it is is we've got more entities taking some money now broadband is taking a piece of of the universal service fund in my opinion about that whether we go into department of public safety or we stay as is is that the first priority to the people of this state is to have their emergency calls answered and that's more important in broadband and in a lot of other things and the more support that I can get from the legislature on that uh the better off our citizens are going to be so um so uh representative if I I hope that that sort of answers um your your questions and I don't know where you worked but I have the utmost respect uh respect for people that are call takers and dispatchers in the state and thank you for your your service there so bar so I would just echo what what Roger just said you know if if the legislature determines that uh we should be in a in a different part of state governor uh state government or the administration makes that decision then we will um work with the tools and and resources that that are that exist within that framework and and one thing that I have been telling um the staff members as well is to consider the um considerable expertise that we bring to the table if we are to enter into you know that agency framework it's a little bit overwhelming um from to some extent from the staff members um concerns are around that type of thing and we bring a lot to the table so so we would bring a lot to the table in an agency framework or and or we would continue um executing the mission of the board if we if we stay that the way that we are but I I can't stress enough um the the concerns that Roger just expressed about the um funding issue so that is something that needs to uh needs to be resolved and it's it's ongoing now so I hope that helps thanks Barb um Mark Higley has a question thank you Madam Chair thank you both uh Barb and Roger um I just uh uh need to clarify something I'm I think I'm right in this but um when it comes to the broadband uh amount that the universal service uh fund covered was only an additional half a percent so uh my understanding is that uh they aren't drawing from what you folks had had previously and are drawing from that fund it's just an additional half a percent for the broadband am I am I correct in that or yes okay so so there's only so much by statute and Barb helped me through this there's only so much in statute that the universal service fund can can be raised uh um you know percentage wise so my my look at that is is that that additional uh the raise I think was what 0.4 percent Barb 0.5 percent okay 0.5 percent that would readily have helped us and and my point is is that we should be the priority call taking emergency you know uh handling people's emergencies in this state should be the priority and then whatever is left over gets divvied out so I'm sure the you know other folks would would strongly disagree with that but uh how can you disagree with uh making sure that people's emergencies are are are you know dealt with so that's and I and I know representative Higley good to see you so and I don't mean to be uh argumentative no that's that's fine I just I just know that being on energy and technology for a number of years that was that was looked at and it didn't go through until I believe last year the year before and and I I was assuming that that's just for that half a percent increase is just for the broadband so I understand your position too but even getting that half a percent was uh was a struggle over the years for for broadband so I think it's uh I think it's a concern to continue to reach out for that um you know we're already um up there in that uh in that universal service on charge to folks and um yeah I I I don't know where we're going to come up with the extra money but uh I believe it definitely is a concern and and you folks should be uh made whole for sure thank you thank you thank you Rob Leclerc um good morning all and um sorry I'm having some of my own technical difficulties it seems on this end um morning Roger I sorry if I miss this but when I hear that you're 600,000 to a million dollars short in the universal fund um one could you elaborate a little bit more on that is that because the revenues are down substantially and why or our increase or expenses up and it seems like I heard somebody make the comment that uh the 911 board or organization was somewhat of a cash cow um I'm not sure I would look at being down almost a million dollars as being considered a cash cow could you elaborate on that just a bit please yeah let me I'm going to let Barb take some of this but I made the statement about the cash cow uh in the context was is that we cannot have you know if we if we go to public safety or public service or you know agency or digital uh you know we can't have people look at this is that there's extra money for them to put towards other projects that was the context of that congress uh that comment that I made uh so uh in Barb um can you feel the rest of it yep I sure can so um this is not a increasing expenses issue this is a revenue shortfall issue in the Vermont Universal Service Fund so the 911 board for the past many years um even before I was executive director has presented budget requests that are at near or below level funded and with our transition to the new system provider in digital just in October um our system costs uh are down it'll be down over about a million dollars over the course of the five-year contract so there was then some reduction there um with the new system provider um the revenue shortfalls in really simple terms are the result of people not using the telecommunications devices or services upon which the universal service charge fee is assessed so that's retail telecommunication sales um wireline telephone service supports a lot of that and as I'm sure you all know the use of wireline telephone services going down down down by you know every single day and so that revenue is is lost as people move away now cell phone services up up up but the charge is on your cell phone bill is restricted it might not be the right word it is applied to the telecommunications portion of your cell phone bill not the bill in its entirety much of your cell phone bill is actually data um and so the as I understand it the fee is not assessed on that portion or some portion of your of your cell phone bill so while that use is certainly going up the the um it's not reflected in the revenues that are coming into the Vermont Universal Service Fund it the the charge is also collected on prepaid wireless and uh but not on VoIP telephone service as a requirement so it's a matter of um people not using the devices upon which the the fee is assessed um and that's it's it that is going to continue to decline in in my opinion with no with no changes to the to the revenue mechanism okay so that I understand it so we're talking about as people are transitioning away from the more traditional landline phone system that we're all used to and going more to the cell phone network that's where we're having the decrease in in the taxes associated with that okay thank you Peter Anthony has a question is uh Ms. Neal is the uh inability to extend the Universal Service Fund to uh what currently is untaxed that is to say well the database traffic is that an FCC issue is that a state statute that we just haven't reached that kind of use where's the limitation originate so this is really quickly going to get outside my realm of expertise but the question of uh the difference between a telecommunication service and an information service is the crux of this issue um certain providers have been designated and I want to say this is at the FCC but Vermont might have had a different outcome at the Public Utility Commission there there's been a designation made as to whether they are telecommunications or information services and that conversation is is still occurring as far as I know at the FCC level and perhaps even at the Public Utility Commission it the question of regulation of those services comes into play questions that are that are actually beyond what I consider on a day-to-day basis in my work so I'm really not um I'm really not uh an expert in talking about them um I would recommend that the public service department actually hires contracts with a fiscal agent to manage the Vermont Universal Service Fund and they could probably and I think they have in the past provide um much more information about the the uh the decrease in the revenues and the causes of all that um or with a little bit more research I could perhaps come back to you with a little bit more uh in depth on that distinction between telecommunications and information services and the regulation thereof thank you I think it would be helpful for the committee to spend a little bit of time understanding how the Universal Service Fund works so we will make some inquiries and Barb if you have any um direction you'd like to point us in in terms of understanding the the history and the trends over time please share that with our committee assistant we'll set off a committee hearing at a future time any other questions for Roger or Barb all right anything else you brought today with you that you'd like to share with us no I I appreciate the opportunity to give you the information that we did today and certainly happy to come back anytime you need any anything else from us just let me know wonderful thank you so much so committee we can shift gears now um we have a 15 minute break scheduled for 1115 so um I think what I'd like to do now is um we're still on the topic of the executive order um and understanding who's moving where um and so what I'd like to do is invite Tony Fakos who is now the director of enforcement um at DMV to share with us uh some of the some of the details of what the executive order would um make for changes to where DMV uh sits currently where and where DMV law enforcement would sit in a new public safety agency and then after that I'd like to invite Bill Smith to share some thoughts from the perspective of the industry so Tony welcome and uh it's nice to see you in your new role um so please share your thoughts with the committee thank you madam chair members of the committee so the regards to just a real quick uh understanding of what the division of enforcement and safety for the department of vehicles what we were made up of is basically three units there's a commercial vehicle enforcement unit that's the you know the folks that are out there that are supporting and directly engaged with our trucking and uh heavy and bus community then we have the investigations unit and they work closely they manage uh uh the automated vehicle inspection program they work with all our stations mechanics as well as carburetor ships and that is made up of both sworn personnel and non-sworn personnel and then we have the administrative unit which really is kind of keeps the glue that all these programs function supporting law enforcement businesses and uh integrating with DMV also under the investigations unit which is kind of how it breaks out we also have the the education component and that's also where we have three individuals one overseas school bus safety the other is overseas driver education and the third position there is the Vermont Rider education program the motorcycle instruction program total our division is 41 uh full-time employees and then the summertime with a uh the seasonal rider uh instructors for the VREP program that can be an additional uh high 30s to near 40 uh part seasonal instructors of the sworn personnel we have 20 uniform on the commercial vehicle enforcement side that's led by captain Kevin Andrews and then on the investigative side we have seven sworn detectives led by captain Scott Davidson so the so looking at the order specifically you know since the DMV uh sworn or motor vehicle enforcement sworn will be the first to to migrate to the department of law enforcement I think part of the beauty of how this order from my perspective is its simplicity um you know as commissioner Schirling has already pointed out when you try to do too much too soon you know there's it just becomes too unwieldy and there's too many uh opportunities for failure here our mission stays clear uh we have a very talented team of subject matter experts and and when you think back to how one of the strengths of Vermont law enforcement we all go through one police academy so we all have that fundamental baseline of training even that camaraderie I mean the fact that going through as a recruit your shoulder to shoulder with a deputy sheriff uh a game warden you know state trooper and a motor vehicle inspector and I think this approach you know capitalizes on some of that strength and to be successful in any police organization you know the way I look at it you know you always you need three core components you need the right people in the organization you need clarity of mission and then you need to provide the staff the tools and guidance that they need to be successful what I what I see in this executive order is really bolsters two of those three legs when it comes to the right people recruiting retention is a huge challenge nationally for law enforcement at every level from the FBI to the smallest police departments in this country I think there's great opportunity there to improve that capacity and recruiting and retention police reform I think is a incredible catalyst for this model to provide better service to Vermonters and that is through the you know the consistency as well as the accountability um as we look at um pretty exciting changes coming potentially with the new with the make of the new criminal justice council and how that's implemented but again coming back to um the subject that you know the um clarity of mission really nothing you know from this order in terms of the operations the effect that the public would experience immediately is going to really change I mean we're this team is still going to be tasked with working with our federal partners from the motor motor carrier assistance program to our federal highway partners to the trucking business relationships that we have out there making sure that that's going to remain the same and at the end of the day even though they're you know they're all police officers with that baseline training these are subject matter experts they've had multiple weeks plus years of experience in dealing with you know the trucking community buses and and how that provides a critical role at the highway safety uh you know I can't stress that enough you know the the uh so many of our crashes involving commercial vehicles you know are caused by a non-commercial vehicle and so protecting our highway you know our our special corridors our trucking routes that's one of the reasons why um prior to even this executive order we were looking at improving our capabilities for um providing more highway safety yeah in 2018 for example there was a motorcycle pilot project while we're looking to bring that back this year just for uh you know doing just you know everything from aggressive driving distracted driving enforcement to speed enforcement to making sure that commerce can safely you know flow through our highways and roads in Vermont as well as protecting everybody on the roads and I think that when you look at the opportunities for task force approaches between the Vermont State Police and DMV I think there's those strengths are uh profound the other concern is you know what happens when you peel away the if you will the seven detectives from we also have four field invest investigators which are non-sworn that work directly with our inspection stations and our dealerships there's still going to be however that final model works out whether they're embedded um yeah that relationship as I see it is not going to go away and I think again there's more opportunity on the sworn side of the house with this model going forward because of for all of all the reasons that uh Commissioner Shirling has already laid out and I and I welcome I welcome that also I have the greatest respect for the Vermont State Police you know they are Kalea certified state police organization um for 13 years I was the chief police at Montpelier and we work our success in Montpelier was so much so dependent on our relationships and working collaboratively with all of our area partners the state police and our federal partners that's why in Montpelier we had you know we still do have a an FBI task force officer and we vote closely with special units within the Vermont State Police and I think that uh not in this potential model there I think the department you know the division of motor vehicle enforcement can really gain a lot of that expertise the sharing of again of training opportunities professional accountability and standards policies for example that is a really important piece um and when I came here I'm looking at two where do I uh I've been in for five and a half months by the way so where do I you know where do we get our policies from do we look at the model policies that you know the municipal departments uh for the most part use that are well vetted or do we look at public safety from a specifically the Vermont State Police policies and I think that again when it comes to service delivery in general over time there's a public expectation that when they see any law enforcement officer they're going to you know they they should have comfort to know that there is some consistency in certain aspects of training especially high risk low frequency areas such as use of force and police accountability I think all of that is a strong opportunity that this executive order puts forward so with that you know there's some you know I just want to be clear there's also concerns concerns from the staff you know and those are valid and it's you know here I am I'm new to this team but I have the utmost respect for what they do and and what they they bring to the table so one I'm personally confident that we'll succeed um in whatever direction we ultimately end up but I I know we can be very very successful more so with this you know with this agency model going forward but there's uncertainty there's the the unknown and I'm taking a page at a you know Simon Sinek's leader's elast we know that when it's not clear you know what's what's my job going to be am I secure am I it is going to where do I go to work where to report for duties anything going to change those are all really important questions and these are questions that we are working through with our team and as we have clarity and moving forward we'll know how to best address those so that's that's an area of you know serious concern but again I'm confident that this group of you know mental women we're going to be successful moving forward in this in this direction and again we will you know however there's funding to be worked out in terms of federal grants right now that obviously everything is being managed and run through the agency of transportation um and then you know that those can there's a variety of options that can be worked through meanwhile there's going to be a void that would be created within the partner motor vehicle so we no longer we would have to look at dissolving enforcement safety division but the commissioner Minnelli and I we've had um robust conversations and to how this accelerates some of the modernization and ideas that we've already we're already some of we're already putting forward for example sticker on demand for inspections in other words we're really you know moving away from an archaic way of doing business where the inspection stations would have to maintain an escrow account with dmv for inspection stickers and there's you know there's cases of you know we have fraud that the stickers or what happens when a business you know has more inspections and they realize and they run out of stickers um so we're moving to we're modernizing that where they can print the stickers as they need them and and going with the direct a ch model with our our our vendor which is Parsons who has a solid track record now with the avid program with all of our businesses as well as with dmv so I think the opportunity that this creates for dmv however this new division ultimately evolves it's going to have a strong lens on business support and I think that's a really uh that's where we need to be and as we use as we look at technology to modernize we're getting away of some of the you know some of the rules you know that involve administrative penalties for example uh you know how a dealership manages their inspection state you know stickers for example um you could and but through this new process of technology that won't even be an issue anymore so I know I've kind of thrown a bunch of things out there um any questions so far Tony before we go to committee questions um I just wanted to ask you uh we've had a few folks pop in and out of the waiting room of this meeting and I just wanted to ask whether uh whether there were other folks from your team you were hoping would join in this meeting today uh I do know that um inspector John Federico will be representing the union's perspective this afternoon is my understanding yes nobody you were hoping to be a part of this conversation this morning uh no at this time all right thank you uh Mike Marwicki has a question thanks I I just have a comment for for future consideration and uh when you brought up inspections it certainly brought up something that's been ongoing with discussions here and uh several years ago there were some changes and um in looking at them what I found out many others as well is that many states are actually moving away from uh the kind of inspections that we do in Vermont and um I don't want to dig into this right now um but I think that it may be interesting for us to look at and it's probably not even our committee or maybe it will be if this if this change happens uh but it might be interesting to look at how those states are doing moving away from less inspections and and some states not even having regular inspections except for the the pollution controls but just a comment while you while you're here to put that out on the table if I can just respond briefly to that uh yeah we have our inspection processes essentially provides two functions we have a partner Department of Biomedical Conservation I think everybody's aware with the onboard diagnostic testing so DMV's primary concern is the safety aspect of the inspection so when you're looking at other states that do or do not I would also just you know I know something that's a very problematic for we all own vehicles we live in Vermont you know the corrosive effect of road treatments this is catastrophic to our vehicles so um I would just ask that we look you know as we move forward in that conversation we make sure we're looking at you know apples to apples because ultimately we're doing these inspections to make sure that that the motoring public is safe on the roads thanks tony sam lafave has a question thank you Adam chair um I had a quick question going back to the concerns you've been hearing from your staff um because I've been hearing from a couple of constituents um that work law enforcement from all around and their concerns weren't that maybe we've received the stuff you know the first year is implemented or even three years down the road but maybe further down maybe some of the specialty that your work does would get lost and get lost in the jumble of it because we were hearing that state police might be down 40 officers and we all know how you know in a time of need DMV steps up and they help you know they've been helping with capital they've been helping you know anywhere that they're needed and there's an emergency they jump in but they you know from what they've been expressing to me is that you know in other places too is their work is to make sure that our road infrastructure is stayed safe and that the big trucks and that we see on the road that they are doing what they're supposed to do and if that gets lost then who's going to protect that and there are some programs that DMV just does specifically that I know some troopers I spoke with didn't know about and we've just talked out of my curiosity um and so the concern is what happens and how how are we going to make sure that that doesn't get lost with moving something that's so special into a bigger pool um because there are benefits of doing that but there's also downsides and I just think a lot of staff are feeling that concern of some downsides thank you absolutely thank you for that question yeah what what what's already been laid out so far and and I know commissioner shirling was very clear yesterday but this design you know the the construct the construct of this that's why there are two specific divisions of law enforcement within the department of law enforcement you have the front state police and you have the division of motor vehicle enforcement so that by you know that that that structure alone protects you know the unique aspect of what this team does also there's some requirements with our federal partners that you know certain functions have to occur I also want to be clear in general every Vermont is is grossly understaffed when it comes to law enforcement and we have been for some time um and this you know as as commissioner shirling has made clear this is not a cost-saving measure whatsoever but I think this is also to further elevate the importance of public safety and and that's you know one of the key reasons why I I strongly support as I even did this concept as a as a police chief um in Montpelier makes a lot of sense but the end of the day if if if the men or women of of the commercial vehicle enforcement team for example aren't you know out there working directly with commerce with our you know with the trucking and bus community there's that there's nobody else can be doing that um and you know that's very you know and I think we need to make sure that that gets back to what's the what what is our mission what's you know and we want to make sure we're successful there um if there's an immersion situation you know we're gonna pitch in where we can and we've all seen that play out whether it's protecting the capital uh in Montpelier you know we've had very challenging protests uh where and situations where we've had to bring in as well as national disasters where you know where we've had you know game wardens we've had um certainly motor vehicle inspectors from on-state police and others help us um so I think the structure protects that concern from that concern of mission creep uh in other words hey if you know because again commissioner surely made clear yesterday um and I'm committed to this as well that um you know we're not there to take uh you know that the not one call unless it's specific to you know commercial vehicle related of course um you know two o'clock in the morning that said as we've are right now as we've done uh when there's a violent crime like a shooting that that occurs um it's being a thing of one of Newport our team you know we're there's only so many law enforcement resources and is in that area of responsibility we're going we're gonna help out our brothers and sisters um and that's and that's the beauty of Vermont and I think that goes back to what I said earlier in terms of the the strength of the academy and that one's foundational base of training that's just going to get stronger um you know with some of the things coming out of the new you know criminal justice council uh Peter Anthony has a question thank you very much and nice to see you again former chief Tony um I my question is sort of a follow the money question my uh guesstimate and I'd like you to confirm this um is that the enforcement division particularly um in the area of enforcing uh the road road assessments in the commercial class is probably a moneymaker for the state and I'm guessing that uh those funds go back to the general fund and I guess I would ask and maybe this is a bit unfair given your recent tenure to the post but um I I'm wondering whether or not you have any um any uh window into what would happen to that revenue flow uh once the DMV and the revenue generated by the DMV as it now is is combined with the state police and the expanded agency of public service and then I have a follow-up but I'm curious whether you think the current contributions will be sustained or whether somehow or another that money will be applied sort of in in division well I don't have the specific numbers but what I what I can tell you is that um you know a lot of the funding that supports the commercial vehicle operations you know mix-app funding specifically um that goes with the mission and so that would that would remain you know regarding fines um and those dollar amounts um you know that that that flow would would be the same that it is because of other aspects for commercial vehicle operations that still falls uh would fall squarely within department motor vehicles you know your fuel tax and and the permitting um so that remains so in a way that there shouldn't that should be very seamless thank you very much my follow-up is uh like Mike's a bit of an observation uh I can't be the only one who's um realized uh and this goes back to your primary and secondary mission at DMV I assume safety is the first revenue uh and compliance with the registration and and uh various ton-month tax and so on is sort of the next in line in terms of mission but my question is I can't be the only one essentially to have noticed how many commercial vehicles uh they are not heavy they are not uh interstate are uh registered in Indiana uh Ohio Florida you name it Arizona because they're registered out of a state of course they can't be inspected in Vermont so there's a safety issue obviously there are statutes which uh are in my view being violated because those trucks have never seen the outside world other than Vermont yet they're uninspected and they don't contribute to the pool of registered commercial vehicles in the state of Vermont so I being an ex-trucker I sort of know where the priorities are and I realize it's safety first but of course in this instance uh non-inspected commercial vehicles are also a safety issue as well as a revenue issue and I just want to say that not that that's going to make any difference whether you are or aren't part of an agency I just seem to me that that function seems to have been unnecessarily downgraded uh historically thanks for that in response to one of the things uh talking about innovation and modernization Captain Kevin Andrews has been instrumental um as was my predecessor you know Colonel Laverda we're now in the final phases of introducing a modern cvue platform which is commercial vehicle information exchange window with an inspection component and what that does is give so much more information at the fingertips of our inspectors in the field to have greater accountability from an enforcement standpoint but also it supports commerce and by being more efficient and speeding you know minimizing time you know at details because of what we'll know from other states and so there's a lot of technology that's happening anyway that would stay with the team to certainly improve upon that regarding registrations that is again that's still that's still in in dmv and and as we look at right now I've already tasked you know one of our lieutenants who's an expert with titles and registrations just to examine for the commissioner information on on the pros the cons and any adverse impact to our own policies and practices without a state registrations whether it's it's to avoid taxes whether it has a variety of reasons we just want to make sure we're doing the right thing for romaners or people that do business in vermont or have property in vermont thanks to any other questions from committee members all right um thank you very much tony you're welcome to stick around um i would like to invite bill smith to introduce himself and his organization and share a little bit about your perspective on the executive order contemplating this shift of dmv law enforcement thank you madam chair members of the committee my name is bill smith i'm a lobbyist i'm an attorney in northfield vermont and i represent the vermont truck and bus association on legislative and executive branch matters here in the state um vermont truck and bus uh is essentially uh heavy trucks and commercial buses and school bus operators and owners uh in the state of vermont and our organization's perspective on a change to dmv commercial enforcement is that um we'd like to make sure that the good that has been developed the good will the interaction with law enforcement by the trucking and bus industry that has developed in a very positive way over the last several decades doesn't get lost in this transition um i think representative lefave touched on this a little bit uh in her comments earlier um that um you know we got to ensure that we retain the expertise the education capability and the federal funding access of our commercial vehicle enforcement programs um and that has come about uh through the hard work of dmv staff uh commissioners uh menoli eyed uh bonnie rutledge uh going back that way uh jake ala verda captain andrew snell director fake host is on board and he brings um a lot of experience to this industry as well we're just um you may wonder why would the regulated community say keep things as they are and that's because we see the uniqueness that is in the commercial vehicle enforcement they have extra training they have to do to go out and make sure our vehicles are safe our tractors and trailers and buses and dump trucks that are running down our highways um have a very complicated system of operation representative ansie may recall from being a trucker as he said there's a lot of systems there that can be um that can fail that can be uh not uh worked on properly by a mechanic and these inspectors that go out these officers that are at those details on our highways um are trained in an area that the standard law enforcement uh personnel is not trained in and um it's one thing to be pulled over by law enforcement in your private vehicle on the interstate um and that is a skill set that's important um that we may all interact with but the trucking industry gets pulled over uh for a reason whether it's uh and that needs that a unique skill set that our the sworn law enforcement and the investigators at dmv have and in addition to that we as an association have developed um over the last 15 20 years a program where we are educated as as um inspection techniques as equipment gets more complicated as things change in the industry and the key component in that is that law enforcement works with us to educate our members educate our drivers educate our mechanics on updates and how to keep the motoring public safer when we're going down the highway with an 80 000 pound truck um over the last several decades uh commercial enforcement division of dmv has had access to federal funding for this type of training for this type of program where vermont has developed a really unique um uh enforcement level which uh which my industry embraces wholeheartedly because we can't haul products with equipment that's unsafe and our members want to be good actors and and work with our law enforcement partners is how we view them um does that mean that if one of my members uh thinks they're going to get some free pass for commercial law enforcement absolutely not absolutely not um when if kevin andrews pulls over one of my members trucks or they go into a detail in a in a in a roadside pull-off um they're expecting to get a microscope out to look at that truck everything from the frame to the brake lines to the hubs to the trailer itself to the attachments of the load that's there the securement of loads is something that's constantly being trained and it's constantly been outreached from our commercial vehicle enforcement officers that's enabled our industry to be safer and to deliver goods on time at a good price and um you'll hear i'm sure this afternoon from uh john federico um if you look at his uh his uh examples that he's put put on the committee website that's a compilation of sort of a quarterly information that goes out to the industry and to law enforcement that here's what we look for here's what we find when we pull these trucks over here and it's very complicated um stuff that they're dealing with when regard to the the systems that make up your modern uh heavy truck and trailer or or your commercial uh commercial coach is bringing skiers bringing leaf papers uh bringing tourists to our state and returning home i mean and those are all under the jurisdiction of this group of law enforcement out there on our interstates and and on our paved roads in the state of vermont so um you know they have the authority to inspect and place out of service and find uh the owner and the operator of any commercial vehicle that that they come across that is not in compliance with state and federal law and they do that very well um they do that in a professional courteous manner and our members respect that and we have come a long way in this industry from 40 years ago when you saw black smoke belching out of trucks and somebody dragging something down the highway with a locked up tire i mean to the point where we see the value of law enforcement having an expertise and we're very concerned that if it gets rolled into a larger agency of public safety that that could be lost over time and why while the industry certainly will be diligent in advocating that these law enforcement officers maintain their expertise you know the words mission creep came up um the word you know unique expertise comes up but it's a simple we're concerned that the simple math of it all would mean that those 20 25 27 officers and motor vehicle and enforcement versus hundreds of Vermont state police officers they might get lost in the shuffle and their funding streams that are unique to commercial trucking coming from the federal government might get lost in the shuffle i don't know a whole lot about that side of it other than i know that historically jake alberta could get federal funding for programs that really helped make heavy trucking and busing safe in vermont so um that outreach to the industry that educational component they come to our quarterly meetings they bring us new information coming out of the federal government that that our members need to know um i'd hate to lose that and i have a high level of comfort with uh mike shirling and tony faco some wada manoli and joe flin and kevin andrews i just wonder what's going to happen five years down the road when motor vehicle enforcement decides not to go to the annual meeting a truck and bus that year and instead of it being here's here's something new in advance your members need to do to be safe on the highway you just start getting tickets when you're at the nearest roadside stop and that's how you find out that there's a change to the regulation so we like what we have now we're concerned that that will be eroded over time and i know i jumped into this yesterday afternoon this discussion so i apologize to members for that but i do thank you for having me step in here we will continue to communicate with uh secretary flinn commissioner manoli director faco's captain andrews of course we will continue to do that i think we in fact they've scheduled a meeting with us tomorrow so um i just would throw that out to the members i thank you for listening if you have any questions i'm happy to answer them if i can now thank you thank you for joining us bill we'll give committee members a few moments to ponder whether they have questions and uh and i guess you know your your final point brings up the the reality that uh change is hard and uh and i think as we go through and evaluate the uh the different structure that's contemplated here we are trying to to keep a running list of areas of concern um uh you know it's it's really easy to outline um all of the areas of opportunity in making this change but i think it's important that we also understand where the challenges might lie i've got a couple of questions here rob leclerc um thank you madam chair good morning bill how are you sir oh well thank you um and somebody who worked 25 years for a company that's probably a large member of yours ups um i'm curious to know what your take is it's been my understanding and my experience somewhat that there was always a high level of interaction between remote state police law enforcement and basically the the dot version of dmv how would you anticipate that changing if this move was made um i mean it's always been my understanding that you could have a vsp pull over a commercial vehicle find that there's some concern about that vehicle than they call you know the inspectors in to go through and do what they do best so where would the disconnect be between what's being proposed to what we have in place currently well in that regard i don't think there is a disconnect i mean the state police has its commercial vehicle enforcement arm as well and i'm sure you're going to hear from the troopers association about that who know far more about it than i do um it's uh and they have to go through a very the the same regulation trainings as as we have at the department of motor vehicles enforcement division now it's just that these officers at dmv are uh specialists in that as well and i think that i don't think there is a difference there representative eclair to answer your question thank you all right any other questions from committee members diving madam chair and bob hooper go ahead uh bill rob asked the question at some degree that i was going to ask but our is the truck unit in vsp and the dmv uh to your knowledge duplicative at this point training and mission um they's at one point they had a dedicated truck unit in dmv does that to your knowledge not exist anymore no we're talking about the dmv commercial enforcement unit as i i may not be using the exact name there but that's what they are at dmv it's commercial vehicle enforcement um there is there are also uh our state troopers do have officers that are training this area and focus on it um so i think they do they i'm sure they do have very similar training mechanisms that they work on now but i would defer to the troopers association later on today all right well we'll hold on to that question um last call for any questions for bill from the perspective of this association all right thank you so much for being with us this morning we appreciate you flagging a few uh potential areas of concern and uh as we continue our conversation i hope you will keep tabs on uh what we're doing through our youtube stream and um have a great day thank you very much madam chair i appreciate it so committee we have a break now until 11 30 so we are going to go um off live and keep the zoom open um and we will come back at 11 30 so please