 So welcome folks. This is house corrections and institutions committee. We are continuing our work on S 45, which is earned discharge from probation. And our testimony this morning. We'll begin with trying to get a view from the on the ground. From the perspective of probation, what it's like from the field service offices in terms of how supervision or probation occurs. And then also from someone who has been on probation. What that's about, just so we can get a feel from people who are actually dealing with probation in one form or another, instead of always hearing it from central office and no disregard to you, Dale. I am more than happy to have these final ladies in here talking about what we do. We just want the perspective from the community angle of it. And that's our goal for the next hour. So we're going to turn it over to Kathy as as Tim Borski. Perfect. Good. Thank you. So if you could just introduce yourself for the record before you begin and then. And then we can also after your testimony, we can open that up to questions. So welcome. Thank you. I'm Kathy Esther Borski. I've worked for the department of corrections for over 30 years and in many different capacities. I've worked in the facilities and out in the community. And most recently I've been at the Hartford probation office. Since 2015. And I am currently the senior PO in the office and an interim supervisor, just as a few months ago. So, yeah, I've been doing the work for a long time. Regarding probation, I mean, I think it's the status that I feel that we have the least input in upfront. People often just come to us from court after they've been sentenced. And so it's a little tricky in that we don't have a lot of input into really knowing somebody and what conditions they might need to supervise them most effectively. And over the years, it's certainly the court has really whittled down on the conditions that they apply. And, you know, it makes sense that they should be risk related, but that from a probation officer's perspective has somewhat changed the playing field a little bit because they often don't have conditions that we would find helpful to keep them accountable and keep track of folks. And, you know, I think there's not an opportunity like with other statuses like parole or furlough where we have an opportunity to do assessments and give input into what conditions are set. It feels with probation that that's definitely less so. And, you know, in getting into probation, in somebody's probation term, it also is just, it takes longer to effectively, like if we need to file a violation, you know, you have to go back to court and you rely on the court for setting dates. And so the process is really drawn out when a violation does occur. So that also is a little bit challenging. I feel, you know, it really takes away from if somebody has a behavior that needs addressing or correcting or, you know, maybe adding conditions, it can take a long time to see somebody through that process. So, and then, you know, in terms of midpoint review and recommending discharge, I think the proposals that are in this legislation would be really helpful because right now, you know, even though it's our department policy, when somebody's at midpoint that if they've done their special conditions we can put in for discharge, it really varies a lot per court and by the state's attorney's offices as to how those reviews are done. So, like, there's one judge that, you know, we work with where unless the probationer can identify some compelling reason why probation is holding them back or causing a detriment in their life, they won't, the discharge won't be granted. And so even if they've completed all their conditions and special conditions and have done what they needed to, then the judge is just like, well, you know, there's not really a compelling reason right now so we're not going to do that. In our office, as we prepare to recommend a discharge at midpoint, we would normally reach out to the state's attorney's office and now to reach out to any victims that are involved in the case and that their response goes into our written recommendation to the court. So, if the state's attorney doesn't agree that a midpoint discharge should be, you know, should go through, sometimes that affects us continuing to recommend it. So, as I understand the proposed changes, it would kind of flip that around and the onus is really more on the court and the state's attorneys to say why it shouldn't happen. And I think that that would really provide a lot of consistency across the state as well as just a cleaner process overall. So that's very helpful, Kathy, and I appreciate that. And for the committee, just a little bit of information in a lot of the other states, folks who are on probation, because probation is determined by the court. It's not determined by DOC and a lot of other states, people who are on probation are supervised by the probation officers that are under the jurisdiction of the court, not under DOC. So that's the disconnect that Kathy is referring to in that we have DOC folks who are doing the supervision of folks who are on probation and those conditions to probation are set by the court. So the court has a different view than maybe DOC would have a view in terms of those conditions. So I think that's what Kathy was referring to, the disconnect there. And I just wanted to let the committee know that in other states, the court has folks who are supervising folks on probation. And here we do it differently. Right. And it, you know, we've talked a lot about. It's his phone. You know, mental health issues and substance abuse issues. And in when probation conditions, as I said, are set by the court, if those issues aren't evident in the offense, then we might not get the conditions to address those things, which really without addressing that, it's really hard to make longterm change for the people that we work with. So for the committee that ties right back in. To age 20, section two, the pilot project. That ties right back into that in terms of looking, having that pilot project. This is for the felony piece for felony charges for folks who are on probation. Really looking at those mental health, substance use, behavioral health. Risk and assessments. That would be so helpful. Yeah. So it can help on setting those conditions. So that's why that pilot project is there. So that's the full circle. So Kathy, the other piece that I found interesting, your testimony, when, I mean, currently. I'm doing a midpoint discharge or midpoint report. Is current in statute. This is not being applied across the system. And that's what S 45 intent is, is to take away that geographic injustice. That's occurring and, and really make it a part of statute that, that it would be required a midpoint review. And you said, when that, currently when that happens for the midpoint report, or recommendation for a discharge, you submit to the court, you connect with the state's attorney. And also you, you connect with the victims. If there are any victims. And then you send that information to the court. The information that you have for the victims. Is that their current kind of, is that their current kind of, the information that you have for the victims. Is that their current contact information? The contact information should be in vans. So that's what we rely on. And it's, it, that is inconsistent as to, you know, whether we can actually reach the victims or not. Sometimes we can get that information to from the state's attorney's office. If they've worked with the victim prior to their sentencing. But it's, it's, it, I wouldn't say it's hit or miss, but it's not always really available. Sometimes it takes a little digging to try and reach them. And sometimes we can't. But if they were listed in vans, we would send a letter or an email to that information and hope that it's still current. So that contact information would be relayed in the discharge report, the midterm report from you folks. Well, we wouldn't have any of that information in there. We would just say that, you know, if we've reached out to the victim on this date and whether they responded or not, or, you know, what their input is. The other testimony we heard too was for the van system that. It's really when you said hit or miss, it may be also hit or miss that the victim of someone who's been put on probation does not always register with man. Right. Yeah. It's not uncommon that the victims aren't registered. And that's different for probation than it is that someone is actually sentenced to an incarcerated sentence. It could be the same in other. Statuses as well. It's up to the victim to determine. Yeah. If I may, madam chair. I think the victim notifications that the probation officers do and Kathy, please, I mean, it's mostly around the listed victims, victims of domestic assault, victims of sexual assault around victim safety concerns. As you know, many of the charges and S 45 are going to be with the non listed categories kind of carved out. So these are going to be cases where we may not have victim notification and they may not have been referred to van. And we may not have any notification. Contact information for them. And if I'm incorrect, Kathy at the local level, please. Please chime in and correct me. Well, I, yeah, I think that that's the way things are written. We do try and reach out to people if we can get their information, you know, regardless of what the, what the offense is. Okay. So we have some questions here, Karen. Thanks for, thanks for being here. I have two questions. I'm curious if you can shed light for us on what are some of the challenges for you as a probation officer, but also for the folks who are on probation when folks are kept on probation after they've completed all their terms. Like they're, they've done all the requirements. And like you said, there might be a time when they're, they just asked to keep, keep going under probation. What are some of the challenges on both, both sides of that? Well, I mean, you know, we, at that point, alls we would be doing really is checking in with them to see. If they're still doing okay, basically, you know, but in terms of having goals to work on or. You know, particular things that they're trying to complete it. It's kind of wouldn't say dead time, but there just isn't a lot to check up on, you know, prior to that, we would be checking in with providers, you know, for their treatment programs, making sure that they're doing what they need to do. And there's just a lot more involvement with treatment providers, the individual and, you know, ourselves in terms of kind of having a game plan. And I think it's, it can be frustrating for the probationers. If, you know, they don't have anything that they're supposed to be accomplishing, and it's just a matter of a phone call or a visit every couple of weeks, then, you know, is it really necessary to keep them on, you know, especially when being on supervision interferes with people's employment or, you know, other things that they're trying to do, just to have a successful regular life. Thank you. It's helpful to hear that. And that my other piece of this that I've been asking folks that are coming in is, you know, how easy, not easy, but I'm thinking about access to services. So for folks to meet their probation requirements, whether it's to attend programming to get work. I can't think of what other conditions might be, but wanting to make sure that across the state, folks have access so that they're able to meet their requirements in a timely manner. I have thoughts on that. Like you feel like in your area, folks are able to get into the programming, meet the requirements that there are. Are there any delays or kind of waiting lists for things? You know, it's at this point, it's hard to remember pre COVID because things have definitely since the pandemic. Yes, there are waiting lists and it has been a challenge. You know, a lot of domestic cases get are on probation and one of the, you know, it is a barrier for some people that the domestic violence programs they have to pay for and insurance doesn't cover. So sometimes that can prevent somebody from being able to get in in a timely manner. But prior to COVID, they're usually like domestic violence programs or counseling, they could get into pretty quickly. And substance abuse, yeah, in our area, we can get people in pretty quick if they need like a MAP program or something like that. I mean, somebody on probation would probably already be connected, but when they need a screening or something, it's more difficult with COVID, but prior to that, within a week or two, they could usually get in residential treatment if they get to that point is fairly available, but too short in my opinion. I'll make that plug while I'm here. Thank you. So we have another question per. Good morning, Mrs. Stomkowski. My understanding is that furlough and probation and parole are all your job in respect to those three is that it's all basically risk and need and receptivity perhaps. But is there any real difference in the way that you deal with a person who's on probation as opposed to someone who's on parole or furlough? Well, the difference, not so much in terms of the supervision that we provide, but there's a huge difference if we need to do a violation. And with probation, that can be a pretty drawn out process. So the process would be that we would issue a citation to go to court to respond to the charge of violation of probation. So they go to court for the arraignment. They enter their plea. And then we continue down the path of trying to find resolution. This is really challenging right now because of COVID, because the courts are so backed up. So we have people that have had violations pending for a year. And then, you know, you go to court again and we're relying on the attorneys to, you know, come up with some kind of agreement. And it can really take a long time to resolve that, which it just doesn't work overall. You know, I mean, I have somebody who I filed a violation on pre COVID that the violation is still pending. And now she's picked up two more. So things can kind of snowball, I think, because of the length of time that it takes to resolve something. And compared to the act, the supervision of the, of the individuals rather than the processing violations, but the actual supervision is pretty much the same for all three now. Yeah, yeah, we, yes. Okay. Also the, I wonder about the effectiveness of some of the programs and treatments. When you have a person who is supposed to be doing programming for alcohol abuse or for drug abuse or for domestic violence. Do you find those to be effective? Or do you, or do you say, or do you say, oh boy, I'm sending them off for treatment, but I know they'll be back in a year and it'll be the same problem over again. Does that, how effective are those programs in your opinion? Well, I think it really depends on how much the individual wants to change. You know, I think if, if they're motivated to, to become sober or to work their program, then there are plenty of services to help with that. And that's really what it comes down to, because no matter how effective a program is, if they don't, if they're not ready for the change, then it's not going to work. But, you know, in our area, I feel like we have good relationships with the treatment providers. And, you know, if we're in communication and the people that we supervise understand that we're communicating with the treatment providers so we can stay ahead of, you know, the curve, if things go, you know, start, if they start to slip, if they're having problems and that we can kind of work together to, you know, figure out what else they might need to make their program more successful. Okay, good. And a question on the midpoint, identifying that midpoint for the probationer, because my understanding is, I mean, there's a whole bunch of different, different statuses or different types of probation. So, like, if a probationer is on a dual status, I gather, now that's a mixture of furlough and probation. I don't know a lot about that, but is there a midpoint that you are aware of that you can say, oh, this midpoint's coming up. I'm going to have to file a charge, look into filing a discharge motion. Does all MS provide that pretty easily? No, but it is. I think they're going to. Well, you know what they do, actually, there is a report you can run that, but you look at the sentencing date and their term end, and it's, you know, the midpoint between those two. So it's easy enough to figure out. And then the midpoint review is due the month prior to the actual midpoint. And, you know, it's a good carrot for people to get their conditions met. But I think, again, with the proposed changes, it would be more effective because as a probation officer, I don't want, I always qualify to probationers that anything that I submit to the court is a recommendation, and it doesn't mean it's going to happen. And that's very true of the midpoint review, right? So I don't want to get somebody's hopes up and say, if you get all this done, then for sure, you're going to be done with your probation at that point. And I think that these proposed changes would allow us to be more clear with the probationer and to be more of a carrot, that they get their special conditions met so that they could definitely be considered for that midpoint discharge. And somebody who has multiple crimes, multiple sentences, I guess, or is it still just, that's easy enough also to figure out the midpoint for the current sentence they're serving or do you? I don't know. Yeah, it would only pertain to the charge that they're on probation for. So if they had multiple statuses, they might get discharged on their probation case, but then they would still be on furlough or parole or whatever else they were on. So they wouldn't be all done, but it's like one thing less they have to worry about. Because there might be different convictions for different charges. Okay. Can you explain to me what the dual status is when someone is in more than one status at the same time? Well, if somebody has multiple charges, they could have already been sentenced to a furlough sentence, which that are incarcerated sentence, which then would turn into either furlough or parole. And now that, I mean, we can say more often that's going to be paroled with the changes with JRI. So they might be on that track, but then pick up another charge and be sentenced to probation on that. So it doesn't happen that often, but it does happen. If I might, I think it happens a lot when you have an offender getting sentenced in multiple courts. You could have, you know, an offender getting sentenced at different times in three different courts. And they, and there you could have three different midpoints for each court probation. Because they were in different parts of the state when they committed the crime. Correct. So they go to the different, so they go to the court that's in that part of the state where the crime was committed at the time. So how is that going to work? I mean, which midpoint do they follow if that's the case? So each probation order is kind of stands alone with their own conditions. So if there's a violation, each probation order gets violated as would each discharge for each probation order. So they're separate. And it does happen on occasion. Generally if there's probation going on within the same county or the same court, they usually kind of roll everything together. So there's one kind of sentencing date, but it really depends on the court and the timing and things of that nature. Okay. So, so we, if we have a person who is actually has two different, two different courts, two different sentences, two different crimes, two different sentences, both of them probation, two different midpoints. They could the, is the probate just by as a side is the probation officer the same for both of those or could we also have different probation officers? No, one probation officer. Okay. So one probation officer then says, all right, here's the midpoint coming up in this court. I file for discharge that probation that let's assume it goes through that probation sentence is gone. Then the other one is still active and the person is still under probation. Is that the way that would work? Yes. Okay. Good. Thank you. That's very helpful. But those are more of an exception to the standard, what goes on. Those are rare, the rarities of supervision. Okay. Good. Good. Thanks. So we have another question, Sarah. Thank you, Madam chair and good morning. Good morning. Kathy, I hope we don't mind me calling you. That's fine. And I'm looking forward to hearing from Ms. Hummel as well. One of the things that struck me in your testimony. It's this morning was your comment about that sometimes you get folks coming to you on probation and you have not had any input on the, on the conditions. And we know that there's a piece of legislation that's currently in the works that I will be discussing on the floor. I think this afternoon. So I just, I wanted to ask you for your advice. I mean, we're looking in that piece of legislation for a pilot, but it'd be great to get your perspective on advice. How we can make that a simple process so that it can actually serve you and your work. And what I'm hearing is so that people can have, you really are the experts. And so that the conditions for probation are more in alignment with what will help people get the help that they need and also get, you know, move through probation and so they can get back to their lives and working and having a family and all those things that we want people to have. So if you, not to belabor it, but I'm just curious to hear a little bit more of your thoughts on that, since you mentioned that when you opened up with your testimony. I think that the department's come a long way in utilizing assessments more effectively. And, you know, I think the only way to get at more of the a person's particular needs is through that process of having assessments that would be done prior to them being sentenced so that the court has that information. Like, for example, if you take somebody who's on probation for burglary, burglaries are often motivated by substance abuse. And, but if you're just looking at the behavior of breaking into somebody's home, that might not be captured. Whereas if the, you know, the cases looked at more broadly in the individual and kind of what motivated that crime, that would be super helpful. And I don't know how else you would capture it other than making risk assessments part of the whole process. Part of the pretrial services are pretty great. And I think that's what we're looking at. So that's, that's helpful. Thank you. So Kathy, I have a question and then I want to move on to Christy here. So one of the things that I'm curious about is the conditions are laid out. And then how does a probation officer or people in the field really determine that there's a significant violation that, that renders being sent back to the court? I know in some conversations with PNP officers, you know, they really sometimes really try to work with the offender and say, okay, there's a little screw up here, but we're not going to violate you at this point. Let's see if we can find a way that helps you so that there isn't a continued violation. Does that happen in most cases or is it just, okay, you violated this condition. You're going back. No, that does not happen. That we just sent people back. And with the JRI legislation, you know, we're looking at the different statuses that we supervise sort of, you know, somewhat through the same lens. And we have this graduated sanction process, which, you know, I think we're getting better at making more consistently uniform. But that's sort of, you know, and it's an adjustment in our thinking to go to that first so that we have a whole, you know, sort of menu of options that we can use as graduated sanctions. So that is the first way that we would try and address something. You know, at the same time, as a probation officer, I also realize I have a responsibility to the court to make them aware of violating behavior. And you don't want to let things get too far down the path before the court is, you know, kept informed of violations that happen. But we do have the graduated sanction process and also like you can take somebody to court and just ask that the violation be noted for the record without having, you know, not asking that their underlying sentence be imposed and probation revoked, but just that the court is made aware that there's some concerns going on and things aren't going all that smoothly. And, you know, if we, I didn't see this in the proposal legislation, but typically in our office anyway, and Dale, I don't know if this is consistent around the state, but if somebody's had a lot of violations, we wouldn't necessarily recommend a midpoint review. So that's another piece that we consider around that midpoint. And if within the proposed legislation, I don't know if you wanted to add something to that effect or if it's only about just completing their conditions, which is pretty clear in and of itself. Okay, great. So we have another question, Kurt. I know we wanted to move on to Ms. Hummels, so I wanted to make this kind of quick, but is there, when you're considering somebody violates and you're, or you're trying to determine whether that should be, at what level that should be raised, is there somebody that you can contact superior to you, you say, you know, how did, how should I handle this? What's the, what's the proper way of doing this? And who, what position would that be? Well, within a local office, we have our manager, the supervisors, and then the PO's, and everybody's involved in those kind of conversations usually. I mean, you know, initially it might just be a PO and a supervisor, but where we staff those things, we bring, you know, talk to folks, and we often call central office, especially in these last few months as the changes have kind of been coming along. Dale and Gary Marvel, I mean, they're very accessible to us. So that we're, as we're still trying to figure out how hard do we hit somebody and where is the room? But yeah, we, we, it's not, usually the decision is not just made by the PO. Okay. Good. Thank you. So let's shift to Kristi Hummel here and Kristi, I hope this has helped you a little bit in figuring out what questions we ask and the flow. And we just want to hear from you in terms of what it felt like to be on probation. His phone comes through this computer. So we just want your perspective and viewpoint and, you know, if you can share with us what you experienced and then we can ask you some questions as well. So welcome and Kristi, if you could just identify yourself as well for the record. All right, my name is Kristi Hummel. I'm honored to be here today. Thank you very much. I pled guilty to a DUI and negligence with a vehicle. I had never been in trouble with the law before. I got a warning for a speeding ticket when I was 20. And so being a first time offender, I had no idea what to expect. And when I was given two years of probation, I didn't know what to expect either. But I got very lucky. My DUI was a result of a suicide attempt. I deal with mental illness and substance abuse. So I have a dual diagnosis. Three years prior to the DUI, I realized that I had a substance abuse and alcohol problem and I started a 12 step program. So I was almost three years sober when this happened. And I had gone down on medication with my psychiatrist because I wanted to get pregnant and have a baby. And within a month of going down on my medication. I had ended up trying to end my life. I went with my car trying to drive it over a bridge in White River Junction and I sent a bunch of texts before and then I decided I'd been sober for three years I was going to have one last drink. I put people in danger on the road. And I understand, you know that I broke the law. I completely understand why I have was put on probation. And I've had a lot of time to think about that. The conditions of my probation were a monthly check in via a phone call service, and also communication with my probation officer. I had some fines that I paid. I paid the fines for my probation as well, which is a monthly fine of $15. And I was directed to do drug and alcohol counseling. Immediately after this, even though it wasn't court ordered, I went to rehab for two months. And I also stated a psychiatric unit for several weeks and I actually got ketamine infusions as a treatment for my depression. I was very lucky that I got probation officer I did. We talked a lot about my mental illness, we talked a lot about my substance abuse issues. He was very helpful to me during COVID and I couldn't go to my meetings so having a substance abuse problem being on probation, and then being able to really access some of those tools made it really difficult. There was a whole lot of shame and a whole lot of guilt. And after a year of my probation, I did apply to be to have an early discharge, which was declined. And it was hard for me to understand that. But it was also important for me to understand too that being on probation with somebody else holding me accountable for my actions and my substance abuse and that was helpful. It was helpful to have somebody else and to have it kind of haunting me in the back of my mind that, you know, no matter what I do I have these charges and they're going to stick with me and even when I'm not on probation. It's still there in my brain that I did this terrible thing and then I was put on probation and, and all of that. It's also difficult because my prior job actually ran a supervised visitation program, which was safe and secure meaning I scheduled police officers to come and do some of the visits so I have gone from having colleagues as police officers to now this. And because of COVID, the supervised supervised visitation center was shut down. So I don't really have to worry about gee, am I going to get my job back will I ever be able to do anything like this again. So it's really a big ball of emotions and different aspects for me personally to keep in mind. It's hard now it's been a year and a half. So I have alerts in my calendar every month I need to call in on the fourth, don't forget. So for someone like me where a part of my mental illness is severe anxiety. I have tons of alerts to remind me to call, and it's just kind of following me and I wish that after you know I understand understand why it's just frustrating, because what I did with my time was I started talking for NAMI which is the National Alliance for Mental Illness, and I started working with the Vermont Police Academy talking to them about what it was like to live with a mental illness, but also talk about what it was like with law enforcement and I had some really great interactions where the police were very helpful and where probation has been helpful. So I've been able to kind of give back during my time, not only, you know, meeting the conditions, but going above and beyond because I thought it was important to share that you know I actually got some help from this. So, Christy, are you still on probation or is the term expired at this point? It's been a year and a half and my probation officer just submitted for me to get off of the last six months. So I'm waiting to hear about that but currently I have been on for a year and a half. Okay. Questions from folks. It's got to be some questions. This is the committee that always asks questions. So Sarah and then Michelle. This is less of a question but more of saying thank you, Ms. Hummell, for joining us this morning. It's so important when we do this work that we have a humanizing, you know, the people who are impacted by the decisions that we make in the legislature so it's really wonderful to hear you and also it's just you're so incredibly articulate and reflective on the process and also your recovery. So I just wanted to say, you know, good luck and this is really helpful and I know this is kind of intimidating but it really informs our work. So I just wanted to say thank you for joining us this morning. It gives me hope that, you know, to see this and hope that you guys were willing to hear from me and so I really appreciate it and it's honestly it's my pleasure. Thank you. Michelle. Yeah, thanks. So Christie, thanks so much for joining us. I believe I've actually heard you done and do an in our own voice presentation through NAMI before I used to be a board member, and I've been a volunteer with NAMI Vermont as a family member as well so thanks for your good outreach work it's really really valuable to hear that first person experience. So the question I'd like to ask you this bill that we're looking at, you mentioned that being on probation on a certain level holds you accountable. I also mentioned that the anxiety when you know your date is coming up and you need to call is also really difficult for you. So I'm wondering if you could just maybe boil down in terms of your own recommendation as a person who has lived through this experience of being on probation and really it sounds like making the most of it like you have, you've done a lot of hard work to try and put yourself back on a good path with these challenges that you face. I feel like this idea of making it more standardized that halfway through we have a midpoint review, and if everything looks good, you should be off. Or do you think that holding accountability piece is valuable for the judges to have some discretion I'd like to hear a little bit more clearly what your thought is on those two issues the accountability versus the anxiety and stress that continuing to be on probation cause. Sure. So, in terms of the accountability, you know, knowing that I could randomly get drug tested at any time was really helpful for me. But at that year mark, where I was able to apply. I had a long conversation with my family and with my probation officer about do you think you're ready to not have this extra accountability like it was a conversation that my probation officer had with me. And so I did complete I went up above and beyond just in the year. And I felt like at that midpoint. I deserved almost like a chance to explain what I've done with my time. I would say that that extra accountability part like I've been sober for over a year now I'm still I've committed to continuing my counseling and continue to go to meetings. For me personally that that would have been really nice and I could get over the anxiety of having to call every month it wasn't like my probation was more severe on another level honestly calling once a month really isn't that is not much So, my anxiety is my own. And that's something that you know I would work through the work through with my drug and alcohol counselor but I was lucky that I kept my regular counselor, who knew me this whole time and that was helpful too. Does that answer your question. Yeah, yeah, I mean it sounds like you feel like having the the drug testing, put pressure on you for a while but they're reached a point where you felt like you didn't necessarily need that anymore. You had shown that you were ready to be without those restrictions and still live responsibly. And if, if the courts had had that system in place, you would have had six months that they wouldn't have had to be dealing with you you wouldn't have had to be dealing with them. And it sounds like pretty likely the last six months, you still would have been doing the right thing. Yes, you're absolutely right that's it in a nutshell you got it right on the head. Okay, thank you. Thank you. So we have another question here. I'm wondering how isolated you are from either the system or the criminal justice system or from other people on probation or serving furlough or parole. Do you do you have any interaction with other people in your situation or is it pretty much you and your parole officer. It's myself and my parole officer and my counselor and stuff made it so that I signed a waiver so that he could talk to my probation officer. I mean, the interaction that I've had with other people on probation has been in my 12 step program. So I've seen some people behave as I did and take it and use it to the best of their ability as one more motivator to stay sober. I've seen people who have gotten off of drug court and immediately gone back to using and I don't know how you guys would be able to predict that because substance abuse along with mental illness can be very varied person to person. Okay, thank you. Any other questions here. I'd like to say I don't know how you guys match people to a probation officer if we just put on a list, but mine was really wonderful in terms of his compassion. And he knew that I'd never been in trouble and honestly was terrified just to even walk in there and and he was great so I do have to say that I was very lucky with who I was matched up with in terms of my anxiety, being a little bit lowered but also him. Understanding where I was coming from. So it's fair to say Christie that you really were feeling supported. Absolutely. And I wasn't feeling watched I wasn't feeling, you know, it was all my own knowing that I needed to really be on my behavior. And sometimes I think folks perceive a probation officer as a person of authority, and for some folks that may backfire. And for other folks they may see that as a way of being supportive but also maybe a probation officer can really work in being supportive and caring for a person they're under supervision and not to be so authority. And that may help the person on probation even more by having that supportive role, instead of being the authority figure all the time. He made it clear that if I can get a hold of my sponsor or if I needed something in terms of my mental health to he made it very clear that any made a lot of you know, not only text and email and think the phone and things like that I had a lot of to take advantage of that help so it's terrific. So we have another question Lynn. Good morning. Thank you both for being here. I have a question that I've never asked however I work for the Department of Correction for 10 years here in Newport. How are people assigned a parole officer. Just whoever's up next. Do you have parole officers that really shine and really do a really good job with mental illness or drug abuse, or is it just a matter of who is opened enough to take a new client. I guess that's for Dale I'm not sure. One of the other. So generally, and also what kind of depends on the size of the office supervision is generally assigned to caseloads that are kind of specialized, if we can. Burlington will have, for example would have multiple probation officers that deal with domestic violence or with sexual violence. We also have low risk or telephone monitoring. Miss Hummel was on was on administrative supervision on telephone monitoring. And that is our lower level of supervision. I'm not sure how all the offices are kind of different the manager kind of manager, but generally we try to specialize special with sex offenders and the violent offenders. We placed on caseloads, where the probation officer has additional trainings and knowledge to deal with those specific areas. So it's, it's, it's, there is a method to the assignment, but it's, it's, it's kind of based on when the probation or when our fender comes in, or is getting assigned for reentry is kind of where is there. What is the right risk and what probation officer matches it. Now there is also some local decision makings where the manager or the supervisor could say, you know this parole officer probation officer might be a better fit for this individual because of whatever reason. So there is some some selectiveness that can still occur but it really depends on on what the charges are and what the supervision status is is where they're generally assigned. Thank you. I don't know why I never thought of it before but thank you for answering my question. Oh you're welcome. Karen. Yes. How are you, Christie. Thanks for being here and thanks for sharing your story and not, I know it's not easy to, to come to committee and share this and it's very helpful. So, my question is about your probation your midpoint review, you said that you, your PO, put it forward, and that it was denied by the judge. I don't think I heard, was there a reason or what was that process like did you, I'm guessing you didn't go to court since it was closed there but just, if you can describe that of what was the reasoning what was the process were you told anything of like this is why this is what you need to work on and you can come back. If you can shed more light on that be helpful. My midpoint, my, when my probation officer applied for me at the midpoint, I didn't have an opportunity to write anything or say anything about how I'd use my time. I was kind of dependent just on the paperwork that my probation officer filled out. The judge for me was a little bit frustrating because because I had used that year so so well and and didn't see any, you know, was going to continue that whether I was on or off probation but I was told that the judge said hey we're glad she's doing everything that she's doing but we gave her two years and she's going to serve her two years. That was the way it was described to me. And one of the things that was in my year thing was both of my parents have cancer, and they live in New York, and all I had to do was ask, you know, if I go and see them I had to ask my probation officer if that was okay. That was something in there that I know is included. But yeah, I was basically told like hey we're glad that you're doing the right thing, but we gave you the two years and you need to. And that's helpful. I could have been you know and let's have you do x, y or z or anything. It sounds like it was more just stick with the timeline that was put there versus work on these things so. Right, which I came to accept and I can understand that. But go a little deeper into that particular question you were, you were in compliance with your conditions that were set. Correct. Oh, absolutely. And I had been rehab to which wasn't required. And my, they didn't say how often I had to do my counseling but after me, obviously because it was a suicide attempt. My counselor and I were seeing each other two times a week. And we continued that and we geared it towards staying sober in the environment of not having 12 set meetings there or doing them online. Yeah, it might be beneficial to the committee to have this humble talk about the court process and how she, you know, after the incident and before she got from probation what what the sentencing and those phases were like because I think that would play into when he would kind of kind of go into and obviously miss almost on tremendous work and taking care of herself and and you know she's she's an all star, you know, unfortunately on every probationer is is motivated and dedicated as her to make the change. But but that process may be important to hear for the committee how you know after someone gets arrested like what is that court process like and how do I get put on probation. Sure. My first, when they asked me to appear in court for the first time, I was still in treatment. So I was waved from having to show up because I was at a rehab but also getting the ketamine infusions for my mental health. So I didn't, I was waved to have to go to the first one. And then what happened was, I got a lawyer, and we talked about about what I might expect and what might happen. And I, and why what my charges were and what I was pleading to so my lawyer was the one that kind of explained that all to me, and I felt somewhat prepared going in. And then when I did go up in front of the judge. She did give me an opportunity to say something. You know, and I expressed that I had put other people in danger by my actions and that I understood why I was there and the importance of why I needed to make changes in my life. And after the actual court hearing, my lawyer sat me down and gave me a bunch of paperwork and explain the fines and where I needed to go to pay them and how I could pay them. And they gave me my initial date meeting with my probation officer. And because of my sentencing I had no driver's license and I couldn't, I thought I wasn't going to be able to make the first date because I didn't have arrived there. And so, when I went in to meet my probation officer for the first time. I walked into the office and everything was glass and lockers to put your things in and security metal detectors and all of that stuff. For me never having been in trouble was extremely overwhelming. And when I went back I wasn't allowed to bring my phone to put things in my calendar. He had scheduled out dates for us to meet at our six months point in our year long point. Very intense, although like I mentioned my officer was great and he explained things to me. I had no idea that I was on the type of probation that I was on until I met with him for the first time when he put me on the lower level, I guess. And I was able to pay instead of $15 a month I was able to pay a whole year so that I wouldn't have to worry about that in my anxiety. So it was all explained to me very well. There were just a lot of unknowns, the first time I met him and just feeling completely powerless and they're asking for help and receiving it but to me having not really been in that situation before it was a little frightening. And I think that would be fair to say for all of us here sitting here because you know not experiencing something like that and someone else is is giving out a form of punishment. That you don't have any control over and you don't know what's ahead of you and who the folks are that you're meeting. I think that would be uncomfortable for all of us here and really intimidating. I mean, it's a level of fear that we all would have so what you were feeling is not to be unexpected. I mean it is to be expected and and for you it really turned out really well because you were open to having someone, your probation officer really help you when you were open to accepting that support and help. You know, I mean, I'm sure that once I'm off of probation. My officer would tell me that I can contact him anytime for help and quite honestly because of his personality and because this for me probation has gone smoothly for me. I don't know if one of the requests were outlandish of anything that I was, you know, capable or not capable of doing. I certainly would reach out to him after probation, if I needed something, or if I was, you know, anything popped up. Okay. I have a question for for Dale I think I just picked up on her mention of levels of probation are there formal levels of probation or is that just a, how does that work. So, we have what was called administrative probation. Oh, that's the monitoring. And we also have risk management which is more involved with case management. And it is an evidence based practice where we focus our resources toward the higher end of the spectrum. And, you know, I think Miss Hummel was a good example of that and so on that is low risk, doesn't need to come in and see a probation officer every week. And it's monitored through a telephone monitoring system. So we do have really two tiers of supervision levels one is administrative administration, which is geared around telephone monitoring. It's really about compliance of the conditions and supporting individual getting through. And our risk management is where we do our full fledged assessments, where we do our risk reduction programs. And it's just a higher level of supervision, more resources are applied to the supervision of the risk management cases. Okay yeah I think you've you've been through those before so those two, those are the two levels that she's referring to. Good thank you. Okay, so we have folks who are waiting for our next testimony and I'd like to take a 10 minute break prior to that so anything else for Kathy or Christie. If not I want to thank you both for coming in this has been very, very helpful and Christie you did fine for your first time. You did great. Thank you guys for for the opportunity. Well thank you and we really, you're doing great. Thank you. You did a great job. Excellent. Thank you guys. Hang in there you got a light at the end of the tunnel coming up more ways than one with a coven as well. So, thank you. Thank you and Dale you might want to stay on because we're going to talk about victim notification in the courts. Okay. So, for folks I'd like to take a 10 minute break, and then we're going to shift it over to judge Gerson and the state's attorney from Wyndham County Tracy Shriver, but let's take a 10 minute break and we'll be back at.