 Good afternoon and welcome. It's great to see so many attendees here for what I promise will be a great session Both in terms of the content we will be discussing and of course the great panel we have We also have the global Shaper community with us. My name is Mina Al Arabi I'm the assistant editor-in-chief of a short newspaper based in London. I'm an Iraqi and These issues are very close to my heart Concerns about religious intolerance Extremism violence misunderstanding How do we live together in a world that seems to be getting smaller in some ways but also much more divided than other times? Whether it's in France or Syria the Central African Republic me and Mar so many other examples of Religious intolerance on some hand extremism on the others So what we're going to try to discuss in the next hour and a half with your input with your questions And please questions not come in since we are short on time Is how can we rid religion of this stigma of being associated with a pretext for conflict? Because I think myself and those of us here on the panel Don't believe that religion in terms of faith and religion is the pretext for conflict But what is it that's making it so stigmatized today? I'm going to introduce our panel here, and then we will take a few moments to have a discussion with the panel and then open it up For your questions. I have here. Shea Hamza Yusuf Hansen who's president of Zaytuna College in the US and I have Archbishop Favbo Cecile Magoba, who's Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Anglican Church of South Africa Rabbi David Rosen Rabbi international director interreligious affairs of the American Jewish committee in Israel and We have Tony Blair whose Middle East quartet representative and my former Prime Minister in London Okay, and we are also going to have global Shaper hubs who are going to be dialing in with us They've spent quite some time discussing this particular issue We have dialing in from Iraq the city of Erbil from Jordan the city of Amman From Germany the city of Frankfurt and from Canada the city of Toronto So you'll have an opportunity to hear from them also there and put in the discussions that younger people are also having about these issues But I'll start first with Sheikh Hamza This problem is not new. We were just discussing it. It's been maybe as long as Humans have had faiths and beliefs and fought for them and believed that they were defending them and sometimes and other times It's been the cause of wars and divisions But for some people it feels like it's reached an unprecedented level at least in our lifetimes We can't deny it. There are Muslims who are killing and saying that they are killing in the name of Islam so how Do you respond to that and how do we bring back the religion from the crimes that are being committed in its name? Well, it's been as you said, I mean, it's not a new thing One of the things about our civilization is is we have a kind of political creation myth of the nation state that argues that The nation state emerged the the ideological nation state emerged out of an attempt to become a Arbiter a peacemaker between these religious sectarianist sectarianism So in that creation myth it basically states that during the 16th and 17th century you had these wars of religion that's what they're called and So the nation state emerges out of that and kind of creates peace and a secular society that enables religions to live together Under the protection of a secular state if you read William Kavanaugh's book the myth of religious violence I think he makes a very strong historians argument and he argues in there that political scientists Rarely admit this fact, but historians do that religion does not play the central role in these in the violence In fact in the religious wars of the 16th and 17th century you had periods where the the Catholics were fighting Catholics and you you have periods where the The Catholics actually allied with the Lutherans against other Catholics So this this kind of idea that it's always about religion is false and what he argues is much of it is about the socioeconomic and political scenarios and Religion is is enlisted in that and I think what's happened in the Middle East You know if you look at the 20th century the the Muslims were probably Marxism played a more important role in in the in the in the 20th century In in the Middle East in terms of its attempts to rid itself from the yoke of colonialism and these things But a lot of these Marxists and less less us, you know, forget that the Palestinians were it was all Marxist movements You know that transitioned into the Islamist Approach to dealing with these problems. So I think that it's important that we see that religion Historically is enlisted in in in violence. That's much more to do with the socio-political and economic problems of a region and I think for for right now the Muslims we have a serious crisis because what's happened is What what I would call traditional Islam and I think people You know who understand the history of Islam will know that the Muslims have been one of the exceptional religious Civilizations that enabled other religions to live peacefully amongst them. I mean, this is simply a fact the Ottomans had a multicultural civilization and and this was part of their Understanding that they were there to protect these other religions They called them the million and there's a lot of attacks on the idea of them to but the meaning of them I was the protected group and and and they really saw it and this is why you still have churches In in in that they're being destroyed by these people that really are this is a perversion of Islam It's it's not Islam. It's a perversion of Islam and And and so the Muslims those of us who who you know really are committed to this traditional Islam You know, we're in a crisis situation and and undeniably Islam is increasingly being portrayed as this monolithic monster that's threatening to Gobble up the West which I think is absurd. I mean, I think Nazi Germany was the comparison is odious Or even to the fascists who I mean their technology their Organization the Muslims can't get trains to run on time like Mussolini Fair point, but I think there is there's a question about the role of religious leaders in saying yes while we can bring up very important examples of the history of religion actually allowing people to coexist and and Faith bringing people together. The reality is there has been some Failure to some degree by religious leaders and trying to take away Religion from those extremists who will kill in the name of religion and perhaps what's different from other historical Examples, it's that it's not countries or heads of state that are using religion as a tool rather these non-state actors that are really using religion to foster extremists and intolerance So I'd like to ask you archbishop that bow. Is it a crisis of leadership amongst religious leaders? That's also contributed to this phenomena Well, well, thank you for your question Perhaps let me start by saying religion is about belonging and The religious leaders have used that sense of needing to belong a positively Sometimes not so positively But if one were to say religious leaders have failed in there By the by themselves, I think that's part of the answer And as somebody said Religious is a reality. It is a spiritual reality and a sociological reality and if Religion is a spiritual and a sociological reality as the previous speaker said Then it takes those that perhaps may Put themselves in a smaller kind of saying we are spiritual leaders and those that we are sociological leaders But one thing I know is religion does play a very powerful tool in in social social cohesion and Social cohesion Does not take a number of dogmatic statements to happen It takes the courage of religious leaders to say if there is corruption amongst themselves if there is abuse of power by those that have been Put to be in charge of nation states or the sociological well-being of people they need to speak up and speak out and So that begs the question that why do people use Religion as a pretext for conflict of course people have realized the That human beings are all fallible human beings whether you are a religious human being or not and If you are fallible and somebody Has equated your religious belief to your sense of security They can manipulate you at any time because they know that you will fear losing your your security You fear losing your power and if that is couched in religious terms Then we are able to manipulate people and so I want to say yes I'm the first one to admit that we may have failed But I want to throw the challenge that we have failed together and it takes all of us to say What is religion that is religion is a spiritual reality in a sociological reality? What are we doing as a collective to ensure that we are not manipulated in this in this instance By those in political leadership. Thank you manipulation is a big part of politics and Rabbi David, I wanted to ask you about the issue that many of these conflicts that are given a religious cloak are really political at heart Whether we look at the Middle East or we look at many other parts of the world So why is religion so easily manipulated? Is it just a sense of a belonging or is there a weakness in the political systems? We have that allows religion to be used in this way. I think that's the million-dollar question and I don't think there's a cookie cutter here. I don't think anyone answer can be satisfactory The I've lived through examples of where you've seen the good and the bad of religion. I My first role was in Archbishop Tabel City I was rabbi the largest Orthodox Jewish congregation in Cape Town was actually at the world at the time and South Africa and in the end of government had enough of me and sent me packing But South Africa was a classic example of where religion was both the problem and the solution But not the origin of the conflict which was racial persecution and the disenfranchisement of the majority But religion was used by certain elements to bolster up oppression and to justify Minority control it was also the force that Supported and nurtured the amazing liberation forces that brought about the new South Africa So you see the good and the bad after they got rid of me in South Africa I was chief rabbi of Ireland Ireland's a classic example of the abuse of religion and not just on the part of Nonconventional components, but on the part of the establishments where it was abused on all parties And yet when the reconstruction of Ireland the changes take place that of course Tony Blair can take a lot of credit for You've seen the enormously constructive role that religion can and must play in fact in both places things improve generally when I left So there's now moved to get me out of Jerusalem. Maybe they get me out of Jerusalem things will improve in the Middle East We've sold Middle East peace right here on stage But I really think it has a lot to do with what tabo just mentioned I mean religions have been described as made up of the three bees belief behavior and belonging and It varies from place to place religion is not the same thing from one context or another even within one religious tradition itself But because it is wrapped up with belonging with identity when identity is threatened We turn to religion to nurture it if you look at the prophets of Israel that are ancient biblical prophets They're doing one of two things. They're either challenging the people and saying you got to realize that That You bet just because you feel a special presence of the divine in your history that doesn't give you any entitlement You'll know different from anybody else every human had being has to be just and righteous that goes for everyone without exception And the other time the prophets are saying don't worry God loves you. He'll bring you back. Everything will be okay. The latter is Being said to the people when they're vulnerable The former is being said to the people when they are actually secure So religion both challenges us to live up to our highest that most noble principles But it also provides sucker support nourishment Sustenance comfort in times of trouble and when we feel threatened in any way whatsoever It's natural and desirable to turn to religion to be able to find that support the danger is That because religion relates to identity identity not only tells me who I am it also tells me who I am not and In turning to religion to support me as if you like the righteous suffering There is the danger that I will portray those who are opposed to me as the devilish tools of Diabolical forces and that's where religion can get so terribly subverted in which this identity manipulation of belonging and of the nurture from religious commitment can become a tool for the most Catastrophic actions in which people really believe that they're doing what God wants them to do that They're really doing something that's good for their religion when in fact They are not only a threat to everyone around them, but they are the biggest threat to their own religious tradition and heritage themselves But this is what religion does it brings out passions and it's good to see that passion but All of all of what you said is also based on how much you know of your own religion and the religion of others and many of us Who are religious know of our religion what our parents have taught us or whether we've been to certain schooling and that can Really influence how you view religion? Mr. Blair, I want to turn to you at this point and ask you about that issue of education You've spoken quite a bit about Education would help fight extremism, but the same time what sort of education and also do we have the time to re-educate ourselves or Re-educate others at a time when when there are hotspots burning Thank you. Well, first of all, thank you very much for having me on the the panel and I think the first thing to say is that Extremism is not new We had extremism in the 20th century through Communism through fascism Both of which were ideologies that were profoundly Anti-religious don't forget colonialism You just you just reminding the British of that Yes, of course in colonialism too Actually, one of the things you find being Former British Prime Minister is wherever you go in the world at some point someone says I was all the fault the British They were there but I So I begin from the proposition that it's not religion per se that is the cause of conflict because you can get causes of conflict That are completely anti-religious. However today the ideology that is Most threatening our security and our stability is an ideology based on a perversion of religion and You know for me that the way the world works today is very simple You can see this even at a very elite level at the World Economic Forum the world today works by connectivity, right? it works by people across boundaries of nation and race and Faith coming together working together being in community with each other and That world both economically socially politically which is more interconnected than ever before it only works if people have a sense of Minimally tolerance and preferably respect towards people who are different. So you've got Jews Christians and Muslims on this panel here today You know if we can get on together and respect each other see our diversity as a strength The world will work better, right? This is all obvious and clear so the question to my mind is this because when when you have these these acts of terrorism you've got a whole parts of Countries being destabilized at the moment. There are a certain number of security issues that arise from that and measures that you've got to take for security But at the heart of this you've got to defeat the ideology based on a perversion of religion and For that the reason I say education is a security issue is that I think we've got to be very clear about this in our world today in Our own countries, but throughout the world. There are young people Educated in formal and informal education systems that are educated not to an open-minded view of the world But to a closed-minded view to a view which as the rabbis just said takes identity and makes identity of religion a cause for intolerance but Against those who don't share that identity even by the way when they're within your own faith so in order to in order to get to the roots of this because Security measures only have a limited application ultimately you've got to go to those education systems and One of the things that that I am arguing for with my foundation at the moment is that we need a global compact on education which world leaders sign up to and Take as a responsibility of their governments in their countries that we will ensure in our education systems that young people are educated Towards religious tolerance and respect and against religious prejudice and we need to make you know This should be a an obligation of governments that's as important as any obligation for example in relation to the environment or What you do in respect of the money laundering or the global economy? We need to make sure we go to the heart of this issue Which is this extremism is not natural It's taught and it's learned and you have to unteach it and unlearn it in the school systems that are creating it But the school systems are not in a vacuum and the children that are being taught this intolerance are not being taught In a vacuum where they're living in stable good countries, and if only we could change the education system They would be more accepting Unfortunately, many of these countries have gone through war have felt that they are oppressed not only internally but from the outside and so to many degrees Conflicts that were never religious as we were saying earlier become religious because people turn to that as a sense of belonging And I I take what you're saying about education But I think many people would push back and say that alone will never work because unless those same governments that are committing to a compact of Education have to commit to stop bombardment and to stop Persecution of different groups. So I guess politically Larger budgets for military hardware than they do for education, which is the case in all of the Muslim countries That's true. I'll let you answer mr. I think this is really important because of course in all of these situations You've got political dimensions. You've got often very weak institutions. You've got challenges of governance But I don't think you can put to one side This issue that the extremism we see is based on a perversion of religion and That religious perversion is being promulgated and taught So I if people say to me well, that's not enough. I completely agree if they say it's not important I completely disagree it is fundamentally important But of course it needs to go alongside other things as well most notably in respect of governance But you know, we got to be clear about this. There are millions of young people taught every day Not about the great possibilities of integration and getting on with other people but a one-sided view of the world and you know, look I remember growing up in a northern part of the UK Where everyone was the same, right? I actually remember the day I met my first Non-white person. I was 12 years old, right? That was the community. I grew up in but my 14 year old today at his birthday party He will have every type of ethnicity and at least three or four face sitting around that table That's the way the world is today But in order for it to work that young person has got to be open-minded to the person that's different And that is in part not exclusively but in part about education May I add something and just to Affirm what's been said but to state the obvious which perhaps hasn't been articulated There are a number of different issues that have to be addressed Education is a critical one, but obviously It's not the problem here is not just a matter of a fundamentalist worldview Not every fundamentalist that some of us might designate as ideologically extremist is necessarily a physical threat Examples proliferate you have even within certain Sufi traditions certain if you like very Insular perceptions within the ultra orthodox Jewish community There are elements whose worldview would be very much opposed to most of ours But who do not pose a physical threat you have the Amish the Amish in America There are many fundamentalist groups who are not because of their fundamentalism or their insular world view a threat in themselves There has to be a combination here. It has to be the combination of an insular mentality Together with the socio-political and economic conditions that can nurture it and that's not does doesn't mean Impoverishment and alienation political and economic which obviously is the swamp that facilitates these Perversions, but there's also the psychological dimension that I think she comes are alluded to and it's important to bear in mind because the Perpetrators of 9-11 were not uneducated people many of these uncertain or some up in London wasn't an uneducated person There is the place paradoxically Precisely of people more exposed to the more developed more sophisticated world that they encounter where they feel They are not respected. They are humiliated They are disregarded and they are seen as somehow in their own mind part of historic victimhood Now that's the real danger where that interfaithful plays in together And that's why I believe why the work of all of us were involved in interfaith relations is so important We have to reach out and it's not just if those of us involved in interfaith relations It's all those involved in multi Social cultural ethnic Diverse activities the more people feel welcome within society the more they have a stake in it The less they feel have something to live for the more readily and easily they will see to something to die for Okay, well the conversation could continue to go on But I I want to bring in one of the hubs if you know me, but archbishop taboo. I'll come to you and then I'll turn to the hubs please I Think the fundamental question is To start at the heart of the matter If we ignore where we come from and think we could just start somewhere and move on We will likely to fail Let me let me just situate the statement in my context If we and I'm not justifying Religious conflicts, it's wrong. I'm not I need to condemn What happened? in France but I want to pose the question of That was posed to the pope is freedom of expression With our limits and his answer was definitely it does have limits so if we know that Religion has got a welter of emotion associated to it and We go all out of our way to provoke That which people hold so dearly and passionately What response do we want? If we allow really a hypothetical situation, but it's real People to still come and within the extractive industry mind precious Platinum and take it away and leave certain communities worse off and The only mobilizing force is Religion can make us belong and have an identity to oppose this power That is foreign. What do we? Do we think education intervention or just preaching from the pulpit will help? I think I made pains to say We need to go down and look at the source of extremism and Try to uproot them look at the political causes of extremism and try and deal with those Thank you I'm going to turn to the first of four hubs who are with us This is the global shapers hub one of two communities for young people that the young at the world economic forum Has really developed and brought together one is the young global leaders Which I'm proud to be part of and the global shapers the global shapers in Erbil in Iraq have asked professor the lower Aladdin who's president of the Middle East Research Institute to Bring their point of view across to us. So he's unfortunately not one of the global shapers But he's quite close to them and has been Speaking about this particular topic with them professor, please if you can come in Thank you very much. I've been enjoying this. You're right. I'm not one of the young shapers But I'm young at heart From really I've been enjoying this debate, but from where I am in the Middle East We do see Different all the religions especially the dominant ones the Islamic religion especially is indeed Subject to selective and narrow interpretations by different groups and we are seeing the consequences of that But we also can see the consequences of lack of sufficient attention and investment in the process of governance and state building and nation building this region In in Iraq in Syria where we are at the moment We can see that the whole region is descending to dark ages With the several dysfunctional or even failed states crumbling and they've left alone Even more states will be consumed by it now the void that has been created is clearly filled by barbarian interpretation of Islam and And the really the cute problems Here in the Middle East are completely different from the rest of the globe Where long-term projects like promoting tolerance and education and all that they are fine for the long-term solution of this chronic problem But actually what we face here are the acute issues that are existential for many of the minority religions and for Communities been uprooted The the roots of Islamic extremism in Europe and Syria for instance really step from the social and economic deprivation and the and lack of serious investment in nation building a state building lack of rule of law social justice now Interestingly, there are local regional stakeholders and international And these days there are state and non-state actors All of these are part of the problem as well as our solution now the local stakeholders have been really filling the point after the the major powers have kept the distance from this region and This is what we see how the chaos is is now prevailing, but the international stakeholders specifically the superpowers have over the decades established good relations with the elite within the Islamic countries and That is at the expenses of the rest of the re-communities and the grass-roots public so the balance power now in the new Middle East is changing with with much greater need for really firing headways into Guaranteed social political and economic developments now I come back to the point that we are at the moment invariably dealing with consequences with long-term solutions, but what we need in the Middle East are short-term and intermediate-term solutions and that that is really relating to nation building and Addressing the the the way that the extreme extreme interpretations of Islam have found fertile ground in these deprived communities in the Sidelined communities and and suddenly they're embedded integrated And it's actually wrong to see the current war against ISIS as as a problem of extreme religion or problem between Salafism Salafism and the rest of Islam the is the violence the the behaviors and the overall Trend of descending into put more violence is is only now becoming visible to the outside world But it has always been there ten years ago There was a civil war in Iraq with people killing each other in the same manner in the name under the name of Sunni Shi or sectarianism Fifty years ago the king of Iraq was slaughtered and then and there was coup d'etat and then Rivers of blood never and non-stop All under pretext of religious differences and goes back a long centuries forgive me Especially if we go down the history of Iraq and conflict unfortunately will be here a long time Thank you very much for your input. I prefer yes. Shea Hamza would like to respond to you You know one of the important things that's been brought up here is the problem of just the legitimacy of a government and You know in the first Iraqi war when when Bush Was loath to go into Iraq because he was fearful of creating a political vacuum But unfortunately with the with the intervention that occurred with Bush to You know the assumption was we can simply replace a government But replacing a government is is obviously as we all see is almost impossible and one of the things about you know If you look what the classical world view in them in the Muslim world was much more akin to a Hobbesian world view that You know you have a government and you should maintain the stability of a government and so scholars We had the revolutionary period of Islam was in a very early period But quickly after that because of the devastation that these revolutions caused Muslim scholars basically Said that we should obey the ruler and this was the idea and this Was maintained for for a long period of time and one of the reasons why Muslims were so patient with a lot of the Terranies in the Muslim world was because of this ideology We've moved into a Lockean period now this idea that people have a right to rebel Against governments when they're not actually doing what they're you know what they're instituted to do which is first and foremost to protect the population and And and also to provide those amenities that enable people to live Well, so this is a crisis that we have now and and I don't see it going away anytime soon And obviously that the the incredible technological changes that have occurred Which have also added to the instability the fact that we're dealing with new technologies that enable people to communicate in ways That they've historically never been able to communicate with and and finally that individuals have the power now to do Things that armies had had the powers to do in the past one of the things that Brzezinski said recently Which to me was very interesting. He said in the past You could it was easier to control a million people than to kill a million people today It's easier to kill a million people than to control a million people and and and for me That's something that we really have to think about that one individual if you look at the beginning of World War one One individual Gabriello Princip who was a Serbian nationalist 19 years old and and basically he you know He did an act that within a month Europe was was in a devastating war and and this is where we all should be deeply concerned about the Instability in this region where a conflagration could easily erupt because of Dirty bombs getting in the hands of these people something like this So we're in a very very serious situation and Islam unfortunately has a militant tradition In the same sense that the samurai, you know all of these ancient the chivalry of the of the Middle Ages that there's a romantic view of violence In in in the Islamic tradition and and and the great heroes of Islam were great military leaders like Salahuddin and Ayyubi They were warriors, but they were chivalrous warriors Salahuddin was honored in the west and But now you're dealing with a perversion of that chivalrous, you know Frost talks about trying to end the wars. He wrote a poem about the League of Nations And in that he said they're these men trying to end war He said they're blessed with the acumen to suspect the human trait was not the basest human that made them militate There's something very noble about courage and and and the warrior and defending the weak and and so This is the mythology that has been created around this which which is very problematic I want to turn to the second hub which is in frankfurt and is coming to us from one of the global shapers in frankfurt susanna engels And and frankfurt in germany where we see some of the issues that we're discussing here in terms of tolerance in terms of concerns about rejecting the other Really being played out in germany in a way that I think has captured all of our attentions in europe and beyond So susanna i'd like to ask you about this issue of is there a concern about the rise of A rejection of whether it's muslims or others we've seen the rise of anti-semitism also and how young people Can actually face up to that and not allow that to dictate their future Certainly. Thank you. Mina and guten tag um I would just maybe in in response to that because the panelists have shared many good views I'd just like to respond to that and include some of their points So we had a round panel on saturday with six distinguished panelists of different professional religious backgrounds And one of the things we discussed Was how the question itself is religion of the text for conflict is is a bit flawed Um We wouldn't because it almost assumes that it is or at least it puts that forward We would say religion is not really a pretext per se, but it's it's often used as a justification for violence so to say religion is is um Is the problem is to oversimplify the issue So indeed we do need to look at the broader context As the panelists have already mentioned so politics economics marginalization exclusion And a lot of these things are not necessarily brought forth in the media because commercial mainstream media often portrays You know just the exceptions and also simplifies the issues so that it's easy for The mainstream matches to understand I would just like to touch on the point of Is religious tolerance intolerance on the rise and it's a two-way street We can get religious intolerance from religions towards society and then from society towards religion And in the first case, I would say that religion is Intolerance towards society is not necessarily on the rise But because violence as uh, mr. Blair commented has always been a comment has always been a In society it's been a part of our humanity However, when media highlights these extreme cases Then it does that the more than the masses perhaps believe that religion is the source And and conflict is growing Um in intolerance, but for example ice has been active for years before media actually brought it into Lights, uh, and it means I'm afraid your voice is kind of breaking up So if you can get closer to the microphone and speak a little slower What might be able to hear a little more clearly Is this better now? Yes Thank you So I was saying the point of religious intolerance towards society. It's not necessarily on the rise Violence has always existed Um as you know, mr. Blair pointed out But media highlights these extreme cases And for example, ISIS had been around and active for years Doing these atrocities before media brought it to light Well, once a west turner was behind then it became news and now it's a big deal So Second I guess The other side of that is intolerance from society towards religion And now this is where I think we're getting into real issues today because the general opinion of mainstream media At least as I felt is a practice in catholic and um As I've just seen in the masses. It's that religious people consider Foolish simple And ends Unintelligent and I and I think that's a general feeling that we're getting as young people And I can understand that because there aren't many religious people Have faith without reason Is our duty to have reason with faith and they go hand in hand So because the general opinion is going in the direction of thinking religious people are, you know, Simple-minded the mainstream then provokes Us it folks it by publishing, you know Disrespectful cartoons for example, and then it becomes more acceptable to make fun of religious people and put them down now That's dangerous because those religious people as we've commented earlier There's an identity with that and when you attack an identity, especially of a minority Then um, there's there's significant, you know problems and in conflicts that can can result from that Now I just like to talk briefly on the point of what we found our potential solutions And there are which we agreed upon one would be integration Um and a part of that is education as mr. Blair pointed out we can look at example of denmark Denmark in 2013 saw 31 people Leave the country to go fight as extremists in iraq and syria and what did the country do? They brought them and they said okay. How can we integrate them? They gave them education and they gave them jobs And then the following year only one person left So I think mr. Blair is onto something when he says education jobs, of course we provide them and then once we it's great Then we have this belonging feeling and that's a potential solution. For example, what france and germany could look at Um and this solution I would suggest is One of the reasons I believe that The west is not able to relate well to the muslim community is because we've also lost our own christian roots So if we could go back to that that might be a basis for us to better communicate and better respect the muslim community because That is something I feel that we've we've lost unfortunately So thank you. Susanna. Thank you very much for your input You've raised some amazing points one I think is the issue that also archbishop tabo raised is the issue of freedom of expression And how people's faith is sacred truly the word sacred I think is being overused to refer to other things but for People's religion being sacred and what that means well at the same time Nothing can justify violence and surely not something as pure and beautiful as religion can do I'm going to her point. I think was very important about identity That we recognize racial identity and we recognize the fact that people should not be denigrated because of their race So in public spheres people cannot use the n word in my country You can't use spick or or mick or kike or any of these words that used to be quite widespread Because people recognize that it's not right to denigrate people religious identity for a devoutly religious person Is far more profound than racial identity and and this idea of embracing the denigration of religion Which is something the west relishes because a lot of of You know the whole modern secular world is an attack on religion And and so I think because people fought hard to be able in their minds to have you can condemn and criticize religion I think by all means have academic conferences on why the quran is a made-up book from the bible in the Torah Write about atheism why it's preferred or secularism all those things are fine, but when you mock And make fun of people especially disempowered people like in france moroccan's and algerians That that are now french, you know, they have a history and they also have An understanding of of of growing up in a society that colonized the countries that their Fathers and grandfathers were from and they're in ghettoized situations 60 percent of the Inhabitants of french prisons are moroccan's and algerian background and things like this So the radicalization is very easy to occur when you mock and denigrate satire in the west is used against the powerful Traditionally, so when you use satire against the powerless, it's not satire anymore. It's just it's just absolute lack of civility and common decency But but the other point that I was saying the other point that she's highlighting which cuts across Religion is the whole notion of fear People normally play on people's fear I'm she mentioned a statement that The The muslims may may fear that they're being attacked By by the worst because extremism is associated with the muslims and possibly since 9 11 and the worst will also Fear that They are being attacked because the extremists that attacked America then were supposed to be to be muslims And perhaps before this again this discussion degenerates into a sense of hopelessness And and us playing on people's fear We need to underscore the fact that out of roughly six billion population only handful Are these extremists and so? globally, there are good people Wanting the best out of religion and no religion. I just wanted to weave that into this discussion Excellent. Well, we've now got time for questions. I want to bring in the audience And you've been waiting patiently. So thank you. So if you could raise your hand, please I believe microphones will come to you and if you could please identify yourself and Make it very brief. Thank you. I've got two gentlemen here. So the one just there. Yes. Thank you. And then here My name is Henning Tiaruk for society culture of peace My question belongs to the relation war violence and religion we saw the last year when there was coming up many wars We have also the problem with the extremists the terrorism us And one we have a based Economy for resources and behind the religion. They are also interest my question goes, of course to Tony Blair When you decided to go in the war in Iraq And we know what happens after Sunni cheat. There was not this extremist I think you have to reflect and to give us an answer because I think your decision to go there with Mr. Bush is a part of these problems with the religion. We have upgrade. We have one time And I think the idea is my question is please Can you tell us from the point of view now? What was your decision because I think you have a great responsibility for the conflicts we have now Thank you So you knew this question was going to come up at some point absolutely and You can have a debate about whether it's the right or the wrong decision But I'd also point out and I think many people in Iraq would The Saddam Hussein wasn't exactly a force for stability peace and prosperity for his country And was responsible for killing many many hundreds of thousands of people So that we can debate this but what interests me is that there's always a reason I mean, you're suggesting the extremism all comes from that decision But then we see the extremism in France that by the way was opposed to Iraq And then it's the cartoons and then you see what happens in belgium What is the reason for that and then you see what is happening In Nigeria or Central African Republic and Mali and then you see by the way When Gaddafi was removed in Libya, we also now have Huge instability there and when we didn't intervene in Syria We've got probably the worst situation So My view is you can debate the political decisions, but at some point we've got to understand This extremism has grown up over a long period of time over decades Its roots are deep within a perversion of religion a perversion of the religion of Islam And I totally agree. Look if you're sitting in Syria or Iraq today, you need immediate measures, which is why personally I support intervention in those situations And you need immediate relief from the terrorism that is engulfing your life But let's be very clear about this even if we were to defeat those extremist groups there You've got other extremist groups and you've got groups now starting in europe and elsewhere in africa in central asia even in the far east And at some point we've got to deal with the root problem Which is educating people to a closed-minded view of the world that says if you're not like me, you're my enemy And we've got to stop making excuses for those people and start to tackle the fundamental incubation of that problem Which lies in formal and informal education systems Educating young people to a culture of hatred to those that are different And if we don't deal with that we can debate the political issues forever But we're never going to get to the root of the problem But I think uh Rabbi Rosen's point about the fact that you have communities that completely otherize themselves Like I think the example of the Sufis in chachamba in turkey for instance You have these sufis that are very much like the uh hasidim in in brooklyn that they don't read newspapers They're completely isolated from the dominant community and yet they're non-violent Um and because they have an understanding of living they're protected by the state and and they're allowed to be Uh completely disengaged and many religious traditions have this idea monks go off to monasteries to get away from the world So I think that it's not the root problem. I think there's a much deeper root problem here So if I if you will allow me as chair to ask a follow-up question Then we'll come back to the gentleman waiting patiently there regarding iraq. I think what some people would say Not to talk about the war and and saddam's ills and so forth because that would be a whole other panel But to say that when a political system is set up Where you are chosen as a political leader because you represent an ethnicity or a sect and more More because of a sect there's almost an encouragement of creating people who will say I represent The sunnis for example or I represent the shia rather than representing citizens And actually weakening the state and making people feel that oh my goodness I'm not going to be protected by ex-prime minister or president because they don't represent my group And that was a system that was put after 2003 any rock. So do you reflect on that? That's not correct. That was not the system The system prior to that was a system in which a minority of the country dominated the majority So let's be very clear about this majority in iraq who were shia were denied their proper place. That's not true Look we can go back and we I mean this is a whole other panel as you rightly say but let me let me just make it Had the bathas did not in fact. They had christians tariq aziz was a christian one of the most powerful people in iraq So the bathas the bathas were not sunnis. I have to leave the iraq dialogue. We will follow up afterwards But but I think if you ask the Kurdish people they might have a rather different view as satan was saying then has just been expressed But anyway, look we could the ottomans the ottomans Give me we have to go back to the audience. We have to give them a chance Okay, the gentleman here. Thank you. And then we have two questions here So one here and then two over here I have a question to sheik hansen if you would be the prime minister of switzerland And the war crime criminal according to the war criminal commission Of quala lumpur says that mr. Blair is a war criminal What would you do if he's entering your country would you put him in jail or you would to allow him To come to the world economic forum who wants to improve the state of the world I'm not the prime minister of but I wouldn't have outlawed minarets Okay Two questions here I'm coming from turkey a country of civilizations a bridge of civilizations and for the last events we see that we need Tolerance to keep up the world peace. So I would like to ask especially mr. Blair and the other Participants, what do you think about Countries like turkish position in such a crisis and also the responsibility of the politicians Okay, and then we'll just take the second question and then you can respond I am mademoum palm from just nigeria. I'm not sure if turning blade went to visit nigeria Did you live in just so Right. Well, I am from the north The center of boku haram In northern nigeria, and I've lost relations As a result, but I'm telling you while growing up as a kid or as child The religion we see today is is quite different from the one my parents practiced I'm not supposed to be a adamu as my first name But it was a great honor for my own christian father to allow his best muslim friend to name his children So my brothers biya kubu musa and i am adamu you see that that was the atmosphere We all grew up with and as kids we look forward to salla Because we knew definitely we're going to have christmas salla food from the muslim neighborhood who are friends And they also look forward to celebrating christmas with us That was the atmosphere we grew up but in In later on in the 80s We had the metasynia uprising And subsequently we had some kind of religious crisis here and there from 2000 2001 if you could ask a question to give me Well, I want to associate myself with the argument already presented. We're talking of giving the right education But i'm telling you a disease that is much more dangerous and HIV eats is poverty We have to address the issues of people going hungry people waking up without being sure of a daily bread And it's the root cause of all these things. We are dealing with in the 21st century. Thank you. Thank you very much Okay, um, well, I'll allow you to answer I guess our um question on turkey On turkey. Yes. I mean, I think turkey Because it's got the the the g20 this year um is enormously important because turkey actually created along with spain the alliance of civilizations And I think it's important both within turkey and as turkey presents to the outside world that it should remain a country that is religiously tolerant respectful of difference And has a a view of how people practice religion in society that is modern And my view is that that is essentially a view where We accept a common space in our society where people of different cultures And faiths all share certain common goals. So for me, it's not acceptable to say that my religion Says that women should be treated less equally than men. I think Treat equal treatment of men and women is a fundamental right. That's part of the common space But then when it comes to practicing people's faith, they can practice their faith in different and diverse ways I just want to make one comment on Nigeria I mean, I agree particularly in northern Nigeria. You can see the effect of poverty over a long long period of time I just want to make this point though about the relationship between the politics and religion Because what's something that's interesting to me is that I'm I sit here as the politician and say well Actually religion is the issue when the religious people sit there and say well, actually it's the politicians And the truth is it's both of those things together. But here's what's really important to recall and remember in northern Nigeria If we don't deal with both of those issues We've got a problem because at the same time as it's true that poverty can create a breeding ground for extremism extremism It's also the case That if people are being educated to a version of religion that is extreme That's a problem in tackling poverty and development as well So the two things I don't think should ever be isolated they go together And you need the economic development the institution building but The religious dimension is also important because where religion is taught badly It causes a real problem for the country in getting to grips with its economic development Yeah I I agree I I agree. I mean there's good religion and bad religion and In the case of Nigeria One is to pose the question Who is Boko Haram? Who benefits from the presence of Boko Haram? Why would a small extremist group Be so well armed Who's arming Boko Haram? So the whole issue of militarization Is quite A key key point that we need to face Squally, but I want to also agree with you Conflict is as a result of Really the need for resources and material and food And It could be dressed in all sorts of of cloaks, but I just wanted to pose that question that Who is al-Shabaab somewhere? Who is I mean al-Shabaab who's benefiting From a militarized well armed al-Shabaab. Where do they get those sophisticated machinery in Nigeria? I'll leave that question for you to answer And another panel to be determined We're having great conversations, but I want to come back to the audience as a gentleman here at the very front Who was waiting to ask a question and then we'll go to the middle Thank you. I'm Michael Barbara. I should declare that I want to work for prime minister Blair I was with great pleasure, but I'm here want to talk about education and reinforce the argument Really put it to the panel But first with a preamble I've been working with the chief minister of Punjab in Pakistan 100 million people reforming the education system We've got 2 million extra children school over the last three years We're now focused on improving the learning outcomes. He is a devout muslim leader Building an effective state that can deliver the kind of education that prime minister Blair talked about And the point I want to put to the panel is effective state building goes with the long-term education agenda But we're never going to fix these problems without much improved education Okay, thank you very much. Okay, there's Two ladies here. We'll take them And then I'll come back at the second round. Okay, just two over here. Yep. Hi, my name's since I'm Bill Hof I'm from the Netherlands. I'm a writer mostly and an editor And I actually I'm uh, I've been thinking a lot about the shali abdo attacks I've uh, I've read a lot about it constantly obviously And I've been thinking about it on a more perhaps abstract level in the sense that I've been wondering whether it's more of less of a an attack on the freedom of expression and perhaps more of an attack on the Um concept of laicite in France so of the secular state and I was wondering what your thoughts were on that on a Religious and on a political level. Thank you very much. Okay. Thank you. And the lady just behind you, please Hi, everyone. I'm Fatima. I'm actually a global shipper representing the musket hub in oman Hi, Aman, frank for toronto and erbio so um While I applaud the forum for Their initiative bringing people of differing opinions on the same stage and having a dialogue about it I think what's more important is that actions speak louder than words So my question for all four of you is that What do you plan to do once you get back to your respective destinations? with All the talk that you've been doing this week regarding religion and conflict Once you get back. What do you plan to do on the ground with what you have just discussed This week, okay Okay, hold those thoughts. I'm just going to bring in the toronto hub since we are now speaking to the shapers I'm going to bring the toronto hub and then please hang on to those questions and give them answers. So, um, toronto is represented by math few tom Matthew thomas if I'm right And it's he's a global shaper. So thank you for patiently waiting with us and we'd like to hear about integration really and Canada as an example of both people from different walks of life living together But also the issue of religion and how it's been tackled there Thank you for having me It's a great question. We've started to touch on a few things around freedom of religion And I think your faith cooperation is a very key aspect of canadian society When we think of top to bottom here in canada It's a very special place for religiously motivated cooperation as opposed to conflict And there's multiple drivers of that one of the most important in canada and toronto though Is that we have a relatively high regard for freedom of expression and freedom of religion these freedoms either quite a bit A sweet trying to charge her Sir, you have to give me your voices breaking up. So we we heard you well until freedom of religion and freedom of expression But we've lost you And as a result they give us good discipline for what we need These rights while they're very easy to take for granted here in canada They're a fundamental precondition to the amazing sense of pluralism that we have in canada And it acts as a driver for interfaith cooperation as a quick example of how that fits out here Last year the provincial government in fact suddenly proposed a law that would ban the wearing of conspicuous religious symbols in public institutions and to access public services And the last year the collect the back electorate Overwhelmingly rejected not just pose bill at the party that tabled it in the first place And so these laws and these rights they actually set a culture where fear fear of others Fear of losing our own self-identity is not a driver of our politics and it's not a driver of our laws And our lives instead. We have the confidence to invite others into our homes of different faiths We believe you can give someone else a right without necessarily having to sacrifice Your own a really important point though is while that's at the highest levels the beauty of interfaith cooperation And it's it happens at the free local levels too I'm really sorry because we're really interested to hear the rest of what you're telling us But we can't hear it well So um, let's give it one more try and then unfortunately we might have to wrap it up But try to speak slower and closer to the microphone, please Household as well No, that didn't work I think we're having a time delay But I think that the issues you raised of course about laws and the discussions that laws when whether they're accepted or rejected Allow between people. I'm really sorry. We didn't get to hear the rest of what you had to tell us If you want to give it one more try and then otherwise we'll call it a day Sure, can you hear me? Yes Okay, so we explored interfaith cooperation at the local level here at an event two days Though with 50 interfaith leaders across the city many fates many different aspects of the greater Toronto area represented It's a city of very diverse proportions at the city level We looked at cases of how over 250 faith leaders came together across fates to actually lobby against proposed casino Here in Toronto the faith leaders remarked that it's never been done at that scale before And that's how faith leaders have come together to cooperate On the city bill level We also looked at it from an environmental and a neighbourhood level and in particular how Faith communities are coming together to prepare disaster resilient action plans in the face of extreme weather So, you know here in Toronto, we're freezing. We have ice storms But disaster resilience plans at the neighbourhood level are very applicable for hurricanes for earthquakes and tsunamis And faith leaders all come together to lead the neighbourhoods that can save lives in those first few days when First responders are there and one of the more fun aspects of the evening as well was looking at interfaith cooperation in the household And particularly with families. We had A gentleman named Colin Boyd Shaper who's putting together a photography and documentary project called the interlove project He's telling the stories over a hundred interfaith couples and how their common differences Sorry, their commonalities have brought them together. We had a great quote One couple told us that we were reminded of humanity When we married into each other's fates and what they meant by saying that was how when actually Understanding each other's faith. They found the real commonality was love and compassion The last theme that was really discussed was around the next generation both generation y which our Shaper community is part of Myself included and generation z the folks that are toddlers today We're growing up in a very different environment where Intrudively we understand the complexity and the intersection of these fates and in Toronto There are many shared spaces of fates and worship. For example one example came up where In one plot there's a mosque and a synagogue and while the adults and parents go to the mosque the synagogue Their children actually congregate in the parking lot the shared parking lot together And that's how they're thinking about interfaith cooperation I think one of the best quotes of the evening was that the ideal interfaith environment is one where it doesn't even matter What we really care about are your ideas and your thoughts as people not your labels And so that's where I think young people can really come and lead the way Hand in hand with folks who have been doing this for many many generations and decades We have a different view on this and in particular I think we can try to have a more strengths based asset based approach to interfaith cooperation And of course apply those insights by building up at the ground level Moving up to the global level Okay, well, thank you very much I think the very good point made about Local partnerships and people having shared interests when they're living in the same neighborhood and actually want to make it A better place if only we could replicate that in more parts of the world where we have More in common in trying to create a better circumstances for ourselves or our families Then trying to destroy the other and in that destroy ourselves Okay, so let's take the the couple of questions that we had and then I'll take a final round I've got two questions there, but first we'll just get your responses What are you going to do when you go home to make this? Conversation a reality rather than just words but also to discuss the issue of an attack on a secular state Well, I mean I'm involved in a liberal arts muslim college and part of the reason for that is that It was said earlier that that these people were highly educated That perpetrated 9 11, but the truth is they they weren't educated in the humanities. They weren't educated in In what was traditionally in the muslim world Considered to be a sine qua naan of an Islamic education poetry was actually a prerequisite For interpreting the Quran The the ottomans used gelaladine rumies Great musnawi as as a foundational text in their madrasa system, which taught religious tolerance We've lost a metaphysical tradition when religion loses metaphysics It loses the ability to defend itself intellectually and so its defense becomes one of violence When when people don't have spokes people that can articulate their highest truths with intelligence They're reduced to finding people to defend their religion that use brute force So that's that's what i'm involved in i'm also involved in teaching grammar in a prison To you know one of the one of the dangers is there's a high level of conversion in our prisons And it's very easy for the criminal class and one of the things that is noted with a lot of these westerners who have gone to The middle east to fight they actually came out of criminal class Elements and they get converted in prisons and and and so suddenly the the the criminal background that they have is is now Given a veneer of religion and it's you know, they say that evil people can do evil things But but only good people do evil things with religion Right, so it's it's a very dangerous Situation so that that's what i'm involved in in education and I do believe education in terms of dealing with the religious Problem is absolutely accurate. I'm not denying that but I think that religion is being enlisted In this violent struggle for other reasons. There are deeper reasons. There are deeper issues going on The the muslim world has some of the highest levels of unemployment the unemployment in jordan Is much worse than it was in america during the great depression. You know people forget that people don't have Basic needs they can't in egypt young men can't can't even think of marriage of getting married So suddenly going and getting a concubine in uh in iraq sounds like a pretty good deal Thank you Yes, for me. I'm involved Besides being an auspicious With the inter-religious group In the country called the western cape religious leaders forum as its patron And when I go home, I will once again go and remind the group and ourselves Of the critical value of love because all religions talk about love And but when we fight we we forget about that critical value But also in speaking about love I would not use it as Appeal to do away with the contextual challenges that people in our country face The inequality of opportunity the inequality in terms of material the the longing and the vision that Most of our people In southern africa Have so that's one practical aspect Do either one of you who have already spoken want to talk about the respond to the question that came about france Can you respond to that or if I can I don't want to forget one of Well, I think it's a really important question and and uh olivia raw deals with that in his book on islam and secularism I think he deals with it quite deeply and very well and Certainly france has an idea of itself I don't want to essentialize france or speak on behalf of french people, but You know the the idea of liberty is is actually foundational and the the laissé été à la france Francais is is a is a unique form of european secularism, which is very different from say the secularism in england which acknowledges faith Um, it's the idea of removing faith from the public space and and and that's why we have to be careful About uh essentializing secularism because there are many different versions of secularism And I think islam is quite compatible with many of the versions, but with french secularism. It's difficult for muslims definitely And in terms of that Perhaps I will pose a question to south africans. What does it mean? I am a charlie And what does it mean? I'm not a charlie does And what is missing in terms of their personal? A treatment of that which is different What is the understanding of the issues? Uh In france, but of course as a person of faith I can't um Abandoned hope Uh, I will actually say in that messiness in the killing in the unfortunate circumstances that have happened In france, of course one has to condemn Any form of terrorism. You can't be Tolerant of terrorism But I would like to push people Beyond buzzwords beyond Just throwing sentences into going down deep into what are the real causes Of what happened in france So fortunately, I at least I'm Protected if you like or Blessed and that I can respond to your question in terms of what takes up most of my time In other words, I'm employed To build bridges between different religious communities. That's my life work Um, in fact, I'm employed by AJC one of the oldest american jewish ad jewish advocacy organizations to in effect be ambassador for Judaism To the religions of the world. So I'm about half of the time Traveling around the world and I am back at home And that is part of what I was trying to emphasize before the importance not only of Counteracting prejudice and bigotry something I learned from my south african experience and therefore to be able to be understood correctly And to be able to be represented correctly But to be able to understand others and to be able to represent others correctly and the importance then of building these bridges That is my passion. That's what my life is committed to and when I'm back home Living in jerusalem in israel and palestine. That's what I try to dedicate myself to And I'm proud to have founded an interreligious coordinating council in israel which brings together over 70 organizations Working in interfaith relations one way or another we founded a council of religious institutions in the holy land Which brings together palestinian leadership and israeli leadership and mr. Blair has met with this particular leadership That's both of the sharia courts of the palestinian authority and the ministry of alkaf the chief rabbit of israel and all of the Patriarchates there are an enormous amount of endeavors which of course you don't read in the press because that doesn't sell newspapers or get Rating in terms of tv enormous positive endeavors And i'm also a founder of an organization called rabbis for human rights Which works primarily in terms of palestinian human rights when i've been criticized I've hardly ever been criticized because I care about palestinian human rights I've often been bitterly criticized because I worked together with reform rabbis which for orthodox colleagues is considered a very serious sin but What that also dovetails is the importance that religious interfaith activity is not detached from the human rights issue This is a critical and important marriage of enormous significance Precisely as you say do you have to show what you're doing on the ground as it affects people I'm not sure to what degree religion can impact on politics some places it can some places it can't as I said right at the beginning There's no cookie cutter religion isn't exactly the same thing in one context to another But there are certainly plenty we can do even if we can't transform that political reality and that's our obligation to do so Thank you. I'm sorry. I'm going. Oh, you don't want me to respond to the live city I I forgive me, but we have a very patient gentleman waiting in jordan who's sat through an hour and 40 minutes Very patient, so i'm gonna have to come to him. But first of course, I don't want to take um just 30 seconds quickly what you're going to try to do to take this conversation further mr. Blair To continue doing what we're doing with the the foundation I established is about religious Respect between people of different faiths. We have a schools program that links up schools across the world for example school in indonesia with those in india uk and egypt jordan america and Two things we learn out of that The first is the more that people know about the other the more likely they are to respect the other And the second thing is That the more they interact with people of a different faith the more strange enough they understand the road Thank you. Well, I go to our fourth hub which is in amman jordan um with mr. Amar al-Azaz who's chairman of the jordan strategy forum and as is very Representative of jordan. He has shown much patience And I'd like to hear from you Jordan of course is in uh In a difficult position as many of the countries of the region are I'd like to hear from you on this issue of Tolerance, but also if you can touch upon the impact that what happens in palestine has on the rest of The region if not the world perhaps also the world um in terms of many of the this Representations of despair and anger that we see Yes, uh, well, thank you very much. I hope you can hear me well um It's been a very interesting morning. Yeah, we've had the global shapers a lot of youth here Discussed the issue at hand and we've listened very interesting intensely to what was the deliberation we've had There is a sense of trauma that we are facing and there is a real danger that the trauma of the middle east of the region And its ramifications in the west can take us down a very dangerous Trajective you've asked about tolerance We've there is an agreement that religion and islam can be hijacked and The sad irony is that Quran itself addressing the prophet muhammad When prophet muhammad was being abused and ridiculed By the non believers the quran talks about his sadness not his anger And and about how his sadness can be dealt with and in another place the quran Tells the believers that if you are sitting in a group that is ridiculing islam And and the quran what you need to do is to leave until the topic changes and then you go back To them so it's there is a huge difference between what we've learned and what we've read and and what we see Interactive on the ground Through this hijacking you your question about that I'm how you know, we live in breeding grounds of this extreme Version and these breeding grounds have been put together through socioeconomic and political factors that have played themselves out Over years and years some of them are internal Some of them have to do with certain interpretations of islam But some of them are the result of the trauma that the region has suffered over the years partly internal partly regional and partly international forces A number of the panelists talked about youth In our part of the world. There is a new term that literature uses It's it's it's the weight hood generation. This is a whole generation in weight hood They finish high school or finish university. They can't find a job. They can't find a job. They can't find the house They can't find the house. They can't get married. They can't make it married And you can just imagine the amount of frustration Economic frustration, but also political frustration Reflected in the inability to participate in anything political that is legitimate Anything political is almost illegitimate in in in countries and the irony is that We know the world speak at both ends of its mouth on these issues with there is support of The historical support of the spotic regimes in the region While at the same time decrying some of the outcomes of of what happens I I know we're running out of time, but I want to say education is very important But how can you educate? Students if they are not allowed to ask questions if they're not allowed to probe Political social economic and religious realities that they face. There is no such thing as Education the way we understand it if it is not coupled with Reform that turns the state into a civic state for all its citizens in the absence of that What we will be stuck with is either Super national ideologies or sub national ideologies and and identities Which either of which leads to tremendous conflict? I want to end with You know, we're all reminded unfortunately with sam huntington's Remind you know clash of civilizations And we many of us have have been talking about the fact that it's not a clash of civilizations It's been a clash of fundamentalism's various forms of fundamentalism and the only way We can get out of the dangerous track. We have we're on to now is really an empowered Alliance of civilizations a real alliance of civilizations, but that would require for us to be consistent Consistent when we talk about freedom Consistent when we talk about freedom of speech consistent when we condemn terrorism We also condemn separation walls. We also condemn Grabbing of land illegal settlements and consistent about drones that kill civilian population It is very hard for our part of the world to be convinced Uh about the superiority of freedoms and human human rights when we see that outrage is being exercised Um very selectively We want to be outraged together at what happened in charlie Hebdo and at what happens everywhere in the middle east and around the world whenever we see Such atrocities committed against human beings anywhere in the world Thank you. Thank you very much. That was um Profoundly. Yes. Thank you So unfortunately, we have less than five minutes to wrap up So I apologize to those in the audience who did not get a chance to ask a question I do apologize, but I thought it was important to give our panelists the time to answer the questions as best as they can So by wrapping up, um, I I want to I guess pose the final thought that The fear and identity were two words that were brought up quite a lot And in different parts of the world regardless of the political dynamics There is more a sense of fear and maybe because we hear things much quicker now and through different platforms with 24 hour news cycles But also we see more wars and and conflicts that are between people within even the same country or within the same city So how can we use religion to diffuse these tensions rather than actually be The fuel that is fueling some of these conflicts Easy question to wrap up please What I love in the northern island peace process was very simple that you had to Not just engage the politicians, but you also had to gauge civic society and you had to engage because People were abusing religion in that context. You had to engage the religious leadership and the best way of of showing that you're Against The abuse of religion when you identify yourself as one type of religion say everyone who doesn't agree with me is Is my enemy the best way of demonstrating the opposite is for people of different faiths to come together And this is why the whole question of interfaith dialogue is so important and so fundamental And it's absolutely Right as the colleague from jordan was just saying by the way that if you're going to educate young people They've got to be able to ask the questions And that's why I say the more the people know About the other the more that they see people who are different coming together working together living together learning from each other The less like you if you are to have conflict So the question is and this is As I say strange for me as a political leader to be saying this We actually as political leaders can't solve these problems on our own You know, we need the religious leadership to be standing up there and saying we're reaching across the faith divide We're sitting down with people who are different and we're working together and by that demonstration We are showing by the way not just that people of different faiths can live together but also That people of different faiths and no faith Can live together and that is the true answer to these questions about secular versus religious Faith has a right to speak Faith does not have a right to dominate in the end the only societies that work nowadays are ones that are pluralist Ones that accept difference Celebrate it as a strength and make sure that societies are whole Allows people to practice their faith whatever that faith may be but in a common space of shared values that are about liberty and freedom and the ability of people to express themselves and live themselves as they choose Thank you Okay, so let's agree we're going to do one round of applause at the very end because i'm running out of seconds at this point I'm going to save you at least part of the time by agreeing 101 percent with tony blare and I can then pass over on now My colleagues It's a great speech by the way I also want to reiterate that freedom And mutual respects are key values that are enshrined within our sacred texts and if we Really uphold those we will be able to transcend all the differences but and also repeats my earlier statement that out of the six billion Population members only a handful that could be said to be terrorists So let's not be overwhelmed By justice few One of the tricky aspects of arabic is the word for right is also the word for responsibility So the arab's understood that there are two sides of one coin freedom of speech is a right But it also has responsibilities to go with it My own teacher sheikh abdallah bin bayya Arguees that you know that we have to spread peace and this was one of the essential messages of the prophet muhammad He became as karen armstrong points out a peacemaker trying to stop the violence that was widespread in the arabian peninsula at the time And he argues that within the context of peace we can redress wrongs More effectively and with greater hope than the context of war the outcome of which is never known But like kennedy or ted source and whoever wrote his speech said that um, you know if we if we make Peaceful revolution impossible. We make violent revolution inevitable And I think that that this is what happened with the arab spring There was a lot of hope but all of this was was really made impossible And so we're seeing unfortunately the attempts to change the conditions Um through violence, which is uh a disaster Thank you. Well, um before I thank our panelists I want to leave you with one thought that I often think of Which is a hadith of the prophet muhammad allah assalam He said Which is the best people or those who benefit people He didn't say benefits muslims And so I think for us especially being here at the world economic forum I'm part of the open forum. It's thinking how we can help others through some difficult times I'd like to very much thank the global shapers for putting together much of this Session today and for their participation. I'd like to thank our panelists And I'd like to thank you very much for your coming and joining us today