 Okay, just firstly, this is the first of a series of monthly events. The NSW Committee is very diligently in the last few years tried to hold something every month a free event. And this is the first one for 2023. So in planning, tentatively will be in March, March 30 on International of Aid and Evaluation and Karen, one of the other committee members will be looking after that. And then April 27, which I will be certainly signing up for the politics of recommendations, which as evaluators would know, and there's a few other things we're throwing around as possible topics. And one at the end of today, if you hang around or have a meeting me to survey where we're always keen to get people's ideas around things, but New South Wales evaluation guidelines, the red hot topic of artificial intelligence, chat GPT and the like, I've flirted with it. And I'm very concerned about the future of consultants with chapter jet, GVT, luckily, I'm here in the end of my career. Good old randomized control trials for those been talking to people in Canberra and elsewhere about possibly doing something on that. Chris criminal justice system reform, I think that should be an evaluation, NGOs and evaluation and and performance or versus evaluation, but none of these are locked in and we're very keen to hear other other possible topics. Okay, so today it's going to give a quick overview of what the evaluator program is, including some you know snapshot of some of the results from the evaluation that we of course did last year of the pilot. And then we'll get some more qualitative perspectives on it from some of the participants in last year's program. And we'll hear from them shortly so I think Laura might introduce those. And then we'll just go through the mechanics if you are interested or want to share this with other people about how how to apply. So the idea for this was born a couple of years ago where the committee said we want to provide some opportunities for peer learning, drawing on the experience that exists within the the network of people that we have. And you know, and while structured training and workshops and the like have a place, we just thought this is being another another option. So Laura and I ran some focus groups with members to test the level of interest and what emerged out of the program was a value add cheesy name. So about in program and we are distinguishing it from the national mentoring program the AES runs which is a is a group mentoring program with fellows from the AES. I have to be a fellow to participate in that and it's a much more structured and rigorous and resource intensive program fabulous in its own way. This one is very much a light touch and need to make that clear that our job we see is to try and get match people up, provide a structure for match people up and then leave it up to them to go on their respective path. As to what they want to get out of it. So it's all about building evaluation skills and capabilities in the broader sense. And that could be technical skills or about organization change or change management or dealing with internal politics or or whatever or how to do that a program logic models or theories of change. Again, that's entirely up to what people want to get out of it. So by pairing buddies who can then seek guidance support from their mentor or evaluator. The roles of the evaluators are to work with your buddy via a series of informal meetings, support them to build their evaluation skills and capabilities and open and willing to share your professional experiences, learnings and so on. The buddies are seen as the ones who critically driving it. The evaluate process, so initiating and structuring meetings and trying to set learning goals without being too dogmatic about that, because things often do emerge over time. And obviously being open and willing to learn. So in the pilot program, we had eleven, eleven pairs. And all all buddies were female, interestingly, but there was a pretty good agenda split on the evaluators or mentors side. So we did a not not just a rigorous evaluation, but we had some midterm surveys of focus groups, a post program survey. And overall, with the reason why we're running this again, because the the findings were very positive. So, you know, the vast majority of people really all saw the program as either being very beneficial or beneficial and the sorts of things. And we'll hear about people's personal experience in a moment, but the sorts of things that people did talk about as acquiring new skills, learning things that they from their from their evaluators and their and mentors across that spectrum of technical skills through to through to more generic capabilities, I guess. Now, I think at that point, I will hand over to Laura. And I'll stop sharing. I think. Right. Thanks, Greg. Hi, everyone. We thought this would be a great opportunity to hear from, as Greg mentioned, some previous evaluators or mentors and buddies that were involved in the pilot of the program last year, just so you can get a little bit of context of how the program works, what they went into the program with and what they came out with. So this is your opportunity to understand more, to ask your questions, to become a little bit more familiar with the program. So please drop any of the questions that you have in chat and we'll monitor that as we go along. I do have a couple of questions to get us started, but but please add in yours. So I'd like to introduce Duncan and Flow, who were two of the mentors that took place in the program last year. If you could give us a wave, please. And then we have Rachel and Tansen. I'm not sure if she's been able to join. Fantastic. Thank you. Thanks for the wave. So I'll just ask a couple of questions, but feel free to jump in if you've got something extra you want to say. So maybe Flow and Duncan, if we start with you, what made it motivated you to take part in the pilot last year? And Duncan, you're off mute. So you're first off the off the box. I'm just the girl. I can't say no. Look, I was interested in like I have a long, long standing passion for evaluation capacity building. It's like it's my jam. And and I so I tend to say yes to any opportunities that are creating space for developing the next generation. And part of that is because I was well mentored and supported myself in my first 10 years of of work. And yeah, and I feel like there's an obligation for people who have been cared for to care for others. So that's like that's a kind of that's that's my internal motivation because I worked at a big consulting company for my first 10 years at a company called Urbis and had a lot access to lots of mentoring and support professional development and all the encouragement in the world and really benefited from that. I'm just aware that not everybody has that in their world. There are some people who are like you are the evaluation person in your organization and that can be pretty lonely and isolating. And so I yeah, I just have a kind of general ethic that, you know, to those who much is being given much is expected. And that's a fair thing. And so and so that's what I do. Well, thank you. It's a great sense of given back there. Well, I would love to hear your motivations as well. Yes, I think I guess it was the right time in my sort of evaluator's life. I also quite enjoy evaluation, sort of capacity building and had touched on different approaches in particular, you know, most recently or a few years ago around building a community of practice, but not let's so at the individual level. So really enjoyed, you know, sharing your expertise, tips, experience from different areas, you know, consulting, governments and so realizing that you actually have something useful to say and to bring to people in a group environment. But I was also looking at doing that at a more individual level. And yes, had, I guess, enough to feel that I had enough experience to give something useful to somebody who was at a different time in their evaluation journey and also share this sort of passion of really, real interest with somebody with time. That's a great segue. Tam, what did you why did you get involved in the program? What motivated you? Well, I was moving into my first mostly evaluation job from more of a research background. And I had done some training, but I was kind of feeling like an imposter. And and so I I I learned well from through mentoring. And luckily, the timing was just right. And and I was able to join the program and and luckily scored floor off. I can't call you flow yet. I just can't do it. That's great. That's funny, because most people can't pronounce for all. Yeah, that's good to take before you're allowed to stop coming in. See, you're going to. I never did that. Right, thanks. Also, go ahead. And that's all that's all. Thank you. And what about you, Rachel? Hi, everyone. Yeah, kind of similar, actually, to Tam. I had definitely had that feeling of imposter being an imposter and imposter syndrome. And like Donk was saying before, I was the I was half of a team of two in a big organization in an evaluation and research unit and had come more from the research space. And I guess kind of felt like I'd fallen into an evaluation role, which I think a lot of people seem to feel like they have. And I had so the the other lady I was working with was a really fantastic mentor for me in in our workplace and very applied evaluation. But I didn't really have much of an understanding of what of the scope of the field of evaluation, I guess. And so I was really interested in talking to someone and getting some mentorship in in in other areas and just learning about how evaluation exists in various, you know, all the various forms that it does. Yeah, which it turned out to be really, really great for. But I think that was my main interest in signing up was just broadening my horizons a bit. Fantastic. And Tanzan would be great to hear more about what you're learning goals were, whether they differed from Rachel's. No, I was in that I really it was hard to scope, you know, what is evaluation? And not only that, but in the in the in the role in the organization I'm in and in the sector I'm in, which is domestic violence and homelessness. And it's a nonprofit no one knew. And I'm still yet to find a lot of people with a lot of knowledge around evaluation in the sector. So my my goals were really to understand, well, how do I do capacity building for myself, but also for my organization? I was really starting the organization was really starting from a low level and and and trying to understand where where do I start with it all? How do I'm one person still in in the organization doing evaluation and so, you know, talking with Florence became quite clear that I was going to be starting from a very, very low level with people and really to start getting people having a value of thinking and moving away from let's do a survey. Which, yeah, gosh, they still do to some extent. But yeah, so yeah, I think that answered the question. I could go on and on. Thank you. So, Flo and Duncan, it'd be great to hear a little bit more from you about how you actually practically interactive with your buddy once you got into the program. How did you work together to set up the relationship that you then fostered over the course of that program? Sure. Well, so Ray and I live in different bits of New South Wales. So I'm on Daryl Country down in Wollongong and raised up in Dungog near Newcastle, well, Newish. And and so we we've never like we hadn't met in person until the conference in Adelaide last year. That was the first time actually, you know, interacted and shook hands. But look, after a couple of video calls like this, we drop back to phone and would catch up when when it was convenient around kids and work and stuff. And I reckon half of the half of the times when we were talking, we were actually we were just walking, like walking the dog or what have you as a habit that I picked up during COVID of only do video calls when there's actually like when it's someone who you don't know or you need to share screen, otherwise, just get out and get steps in. So so we did that a lot. And and I think what that what that allowed was was unhurried conversations because you're not looking at the clock and undistracted conversations because you're not sitting there in front of, you know, your distraction machine, which which we all are right now. Right. And lots of nods coming through from Rachel as well. So it obviously worked for you both. Yeah, absolutely. I was going to add another thing. I think we did was dinner prep because we both I've got little kids Duncan has kids, so we'd sort of factor it in around pick up or, you know, parent life. And I think one time the first time we did happy hour, which was nice. You had a glass of wine and a chat. And then, yeah, as we got to phone, it was walking or dinner prep or cleaning or, you know, it was it was really good, very useful. Good multitasking. And how about you, Flo? How did you interact with your buddy? So it was interesting to hear, Duncan. So for us, it was the other way around. We we leave and work quite close by. So we were able to, yeah, have to face face to face meeting really, yeah, straight away. And that that helps really, I guess, building the relationship, which is which is critical to a mentoring relationship. And then first starting for me to understand, you know, where where time was at the organization and also maybe help time understand what you was getting into by trying to express it and then progressively identify where it could help or bounce IDs and then working on very practical challenges or examples projects where it could provide some practical help. And yeah, then it turned into some yeah, regular catch ups at the local cafe in in in Redfern on times away to work. So that was that was pretty nice. Sounds idyllic. And just a reminder, if you've got your own questions, please drop them in the chat and we can get to those as well. Tam, it would be great to hear from you what you got out of the program and how that impacted the work that you do. Yeah, so as Florence was saying, you know, I hit the ground running, I had to start doing stuff straight away. And I sort of didn't get to share my panic with anyone but Florence and and he was amazing. And he made I think you were sort of winding down one job before you moved on to new role. So he made himself really available. And, you know, in my panic state, I needed a lot of visual learning and he was really able to do that. And we drew a lot of graphs and tables together. And I'd say one of the really nice things was that I was able to really practice some of the tools of evaluation with my like program logic and the different I saw the different ways that he approached it and different to how I would approach it. And I've still got the, you know, the little scribblings that we did together and at the cafe. It was, yeah, super useful for me to be face to face. Much prefer that style of learning as well. I think, you know, where I'm at now is really, I mean, when I started the job, I literally made up the role and made my job description. I made my job title and by not long after I started, the organization got funding for me from a private foundation. And I recently met with them to just, you know, talk about what I've achieved, but, you know, what's next. And it was really gratifying to see that I went from just this small pebble to actually having a really nice structure, which is quite best vote to this organization and quite unique. So it's been a really creative experience. I still can't believe, you know, within a year, how much more of an expert I feel, one of the problems coming into this field in an organization or sector where there's not much evaluation done is that everyone just says, oh, but you're the expert. And when you're quite new, I think it's quite daunting. So, yeah, so I feel like I feel like I've achieved my goals and more and I can really see with Lauren's help, I could see quite early the contribution I was making to the organization and the reason for me being there. So it was really extremely good for my confidence. And just very grateful that the timing was right for Florence as well. And it sounds like it was just critical for you settling in to your role and building that presence there, which is a good time with you as well. Yes. It's fantastic. What about you, Rachel? What do you get out of the program and how has it impacted the way that you see and the way that you do evaluation in your workplace? What did I get out of it? I got I feel like I got a lot out of the program. I we we structured it very sort of, I guess, informally, but it was really useful. It was so I would kind of think of questions or issues that I had or gaps where I felt I really needed some guidance and would raise them with Duncan and we'd talk about them and really just just sort of nut it out together. And that really helped me, I think, as well, had helped doing like keeping busy or walking or, you know, moving through the issues together. It was really useful and often Duncan would send me things to look at afterwards, like articles or book recommendations, YouTube videos, different resources that I would then follow up on at our next meeting was kind of this rolling discussion. And I found it useful to just have someone to bounce ideas off about different study pathways. I was looking at to doing looking at doing the Masters of Evaluation at one point and we talked about whether the pros and cons of doing that or finishing my Masters of Public Health, you know, just that those kind of where it's good to have a sounding board to bounce ideas off. That was very useful. Gosh, what else? I think it was just great to have a good contact. The one thing I learned really quickly about Duncan is that he knows everybody in the world. The most connected person. So it was really great to be talking and he'd say, oh, you have questions about this, or I'll hook you up with so-and-so or so-and-so. And I thought, whoa, this is really, really useful. And so that was great to have that networking and connections. And yeah, and also just a mate, we had a lot in common and we laughed a lot and it's just a nice kind of continuing hopefully we haven't caught up much lately because life's been a bit crazy, but hopefully it can continue in connection. Yeah, for sure. I think like there's probably two other things that I'd kind of comment on the back of that. One of them is just talking about work-life balance. Like not about evaluation, technical stuff at all, but just the realities of of working from home and, you know, parenting and all that kind of stuff. So that like the blend of like you kind of you do the hokey pokey in this kind of thing, like you put your whole self in, it's not just a really technical coaching around a particular task. It's and I think that's one of the differences between coaching and mentoring is that coaching is very task driven and can I perform this, you know, this thing as opposed to mentoring is much more about kind of life and your whole self in your work, or at least it is in the way that I think about it. And the way that we we did it. And and the like and the other thing is in terms of being connected, it was just coincidental. There was a role that was advertised that Ray was interested in and I knew somebody who had worked in that organization. And so she could talk to that person who had knowledge of the organization. So that like that was the that was the coincidence. Yeah, you can't always you can't promise that kind of stuff. I think that that probably is the advantage of having people who have been just around a bit. And I think that that goes to Raoul, you had a question about the minimum level of expertise mentors need to have. And I think I would say just just a niffy naffy more than than the person who like not not a lot more than the person who you're you're you're butted up with. And in fact, I think there's that it's very true that you don't need to be a fellow of the society to be a mentor. Fun fact, Greg, no longer in the group mentoring program, like that that's not a requirement there either. They've kind of eased that out a bit. That's just where they started. And so I think there's there's lots to be. Yeah, there's lots to be said for people who are like mid career evaluators like me being able to spend time with people who are in their kind of first five years of it. That's gold. And that like that's what I experienced when I was when I was young in in in in in short shorts, but I want to be able to, you know, feed through. And on that comment just came in the chat about the personnel, more about personality and kind of linked to the one above about matching. Correct me if I'm wrong here. Greg, but I think that what came out of the evaluation of the national one was that the ones that were rated to be the most successfully the most successful mentorship situations were the ones where they got on and had a lot of common ground in terms of personality and beliefs and more so than working in the same field. Is that correct? I feel like I read that in one of the evaluation reports at some point. I think that's right. I think I heard that too. And if I could piggyback on a couple of those comments, too. And Rahul, I just noticed that you what did you say? I wouldn't feel like I could necessarily mentor anyone. That probably means you would be ideally qualified to do it because there's some humility, I think, involved here. And it's about shared learning and it's not about being a coaching expert. That so, you know, sort of get nervous when people think, well, I'm God's gift to evaluation. You know, someone is going to benefit enormously from from from my from my wisdom. But when Laura and I kicked this off, I think we had an expectation that this would be a program specifically for. Less senior emerging evaluators, junior evaluators, and while we certainly had some people like that at the pot, there were some that were quite a bit more experienced. And we had, you know, we're able to match them with with with people that had even more experience. So it's not a one size fits model. And I know someone did pop in a question about how the matching process works. We might come to that in a little bit. Yeah, great. Thanks, Greg. And I think I'd like to continue on that theme of the mentors as well. Because certainly from my experience and I was a mentor in the program, too, it's certainly a two way street in terms of the mentor continually learning from the body as well. And so I'd just like to hear from from Duncan and flow as well, just to hear what you got out of the program. Because I'm sure, at least from my perspective, there were a lot of lessons that I learned throughout the process, too. Go for. A lot, a lot, I think it's been, you know, studies showing that you get a lot by giving. And it's also, yeah, so it's very rewarding. And also it's sort of, I mean, and it's the best way to learn. I mean, that's where one of the things that Duncan says a lot is by teaching or explaining things. That's the best way to, you know, firm up your your your your thoughts or your knowledge that helps a lot. The other thing I was thinking is it's not because we have a bit more experience that we we're not immune to the imposter syndrome, really. And and and that actually helps to have this mentoring relationship because then that. Confirms yourself. Oh, yeah. OK, actually, actually, actually, I'm useful. I know stuff and I can help people. So that helps you is because you're always the imposter of somebody else. So I mean, it depends, depends. Yeah, so so we're not immune to that. I think that that helped me realise. And then you need sort of this sort of positive feedback and that's what you're doing is helpful and then, you know, your stuff. So I got and also the other thing I got was I think somebody touched on the sectors. It's an opportunity to touch on the areas that you're not necessarily or you may be less familiar with. And Tam was in the NGO sector, which I had less less experience with. And in quite a different field as well. If you're looking in primarily education and and health and and Tam, did you say you were in domestic violence and homelessness? Yeah, so we're primarily responding to women experiencing DV and homelessness. So yeah, very different. But yeah, I appreciated how Florence was able to translate across. And it did help, though, that that, you knew someone in my organisation and, you know, you were local to Red Fern as well. So yeah, you show a lot of mental dexterity. Oh, yeah, from the childcare. That was wish. I've been to Laura, you said you learned a bit. What did you learn? Yeah, great question. So although I've been in my organisation and doing evaluation for a while now, I've only worked in the private sector. Whereas my buddy was in Department of Education and so had quite a different feel to me, but was also in a different organisation type. And I think that was really interesting just to get some perspective of how evaluation works when you're a part of an internal evaluation unit. So understanding what the demands and constraints were on her, I think was really interesting. Also just the different types of evaluations that she did was quite different to how I approach things. The scale is often quite different. I also work across a broad range of subject areas, whereas she focuses solely on evaluation being within the Department of Education. She focuses primarily on education. So just learning some kind of interesting perspectives, I think, from that approach. Yeah, so I echo all of that. And I think there are some great questions that Ray was asking herself that were really useful to Mullover. Anyway, I think I remember one of the early questions that I was asking was of all the possible kind of skill sets that you could seek to develop in order to like thinking about future skill sets in evaluation, what are the emerging areas of workforce need, workforce shortage in evaluation, kind of like thinking about that and then thinking about her own interests and what she'd done before and what she was going to do. I think that's a really interesting question. So we were able to riff on that. Well, what are you seeing? And well, here's what I'm seeing and all those kinds of things. So sometimes simply just the like the topics that the person who's being mentored is throwing out there. They're really interesting things to Mullover and they then become things that, well, for me, that I was then asking other people when I was catching up with them, hey, what do you reckon are the emerging areas of workforce shortage in terms of skill set for evaluation? And I kind of feed that back to Ray and it was just an interesting question on that is for me to have. Definitely. And that came up with me as well. And I think also more broadly than evaluation, but starting to think about issues like managing more junior staff, like, how does one get exposure to that kind of a role and and how what are the kinds of opportunities that somebody needs to explore at an early stage in their career to keep their opportunities open as they progress? So although there was a lot of evaluation talk, there was also kind of broader positioning discussions, I guess. Yeah, look, that actually comes back to something that, for me, like that's kind of that's a that's an advantage for someone who's so I don't have any direct reports. I run a consulting company where it's me and one other person and we're colleagues and then we bring teams together. So I don't have anybody who reports to me in that way. So what that would otherwise mean is like, if I did that for 10 years, then my my kind of coaching and development skills would wither on the vine. If I if I wasn't actively doing this, this kind of thing. So I suppose that that's another thing that you could pop in the benefits for a mentor's category. Yeah, definitely. Any more questions from anybody in the audience that they'd like to throw up at the moment? Lois wants to know about how you do the matching. Yeah, good question. So I think Greg's going to touch on that just after this. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'll come to that. Great. I just have one question if nobody's got any others. So I had one there actually. Yeah. Yeah. Is the program still ongoing? Is this the final evaluation? Great question. So we ran the pilot last year and that went for about six months. And then some buddies continued, buddy and mental partners continue to engage over the rest of the year. Some relationships kind of naturally found an end. But this is the launch of the second year of the program. So looking to start a new version with some new buddies and some new mentors. And the evaluation was of the pilot that took place last year. And at that point about we did do a post program follow up to see, you know, whether people were continuing. And as Laura said, I can't remember the figures off my head, but it was a reasonable proportion, a pleasing proportion. But we did actually, as we will with this one, put us to a hard closure so that there is some formality when people can actually consciously say, yeah, let's finish up now or yeah, why don't we keep going or whatever. And again, these are two adults making decisions about what they want to do. But nevertheless, having something where you say, well, this is going to run through till December 31 or whatever. Well, just before we, in this part of the session, and I hand back over to Greg, I'd be curious to hear what everyone would say to either Flo and Duncan to new mentors that are thinking to sign up this year or Rachel and Tam for new buddies. So maybe if we start with Rachel. Oh, I was just thinking about that. What would I say to a new buddy? I think just to just keep in mind the things that we've spoken about that have been really effective, like thinking of particular questions that I guess thinking of what you want to get out of it and coming to your mentor with particular questions to address gaps that you feel that you have and not feeling that you have. Just sort of ask, you know, stick to a particular structure or, you know, it's the program you can design it completely to be of the most benefit to you. And I think what you get out of it is what you put into it. And it can be very flexible. We were meeting, I think, fortnightly at the start, but you could meet more often than that or less often. Like, I think having the, you know, I think having the whole premise that it's mentee driven is quite good in that sense. And then it's great, obviously great that the mentors get a lot out of it, too. But I think in terms of guiding the the content of what you discuss, it's have a I think reflect and have a think about where you would really benefit. And then and then just ask those questions and don't be afraid of or feeling silly or anything. I think just go for it. That's what they're there for. And, yeah, it's a very supportive environment. Stick. And, Tam, how about you? What would you say? Oh, similar to Rachel, there are no dumb questions. And, you know, it's a it's a it has to be a safe space where you trust that your mentor is not going to be judging you. And I definitely felt that and just to be brave within the relationship because it is designed to be led by you, the mentee. And also similar to Rachel, I would also really keep in note of what are you what are you going to get out of it? Because I did find that I would get sidetracked with Lauren and not by you, but by myself and and my pressing concerns and, you know, not get to the bits that I really needed to get to. And just to keep them in mind. So, yeah, just and go for it. Have a have a go. And if it doesn't work, that's fine, too. You know, you don't it's not like it has to work out. Right. Thank you. And Duncan, you're off mute. So you're next. What would I say to somebody who's considering putting their hand up as a mentor? I would say if you're even considering it, do it. And don't be put off, like, like, put your head up and offer and don't be put off by, I think, you know, Riles, you know, sense of, oh, you know, I just don't think I could. You don't know how valuable your own expertise and experience is. And it's it's always surprising to find that what kind of what it is that other people find valuable about what you've done. And and then I think the other thing is don't but don't do it if you feel like you're going to be pouring from an empty cup. But if your if your work is so all your life is so kind of caught up in emotional load or like really heavy load that you don't have headspace for someone else's. Like, you know, like to hold that that person and their career gently and put in some time, then then don't do it. But it doesn't take a lot of time, but it but it does take a bit of time and you need to hold that space and you need to kind of be available in that way for that time. It tends not to leak in my experience into other things like it is reasonably contained, but you do want to finish what you start. So if you've got a really chaotic year in front of you, then maybe that's not the year to do it. Thank you. And so I think it's really important for you to be able to So if you've got a really chaotic year in front of you, then maybe that's not the year to do it. Thank you. And Flo, lucky last. Yeah. Yeah, interesting what you just said. Thank you. Now, was I was about to say, yeah, if you're considering it the same, you should you should do it. It's it's more than a worthwhile investment of time, but I tend to agree. Actually, yes, you need to be on the in the right mindset, like you're comfortable in your space and having the space in your mind to properly allocate to somebody else. Yeah, it's it's true. But it's but it's also worthwhile just from a human and relationship perspective. I really like the point of fact, the fact that it's it's not task-oriented and a lot of the work we do on our daily jobs are task-oriented, whether consulting or as part of an existing, you know, government or in a private organization, it's task-oriented. So having this broader whilst engaging with work, it's you have the broader vision, really. And it's and it's, you know, personally rewarding, firm up your your knowledge and your area of expertise. You have something to say. And you may end up talking about theater and that's and that's and that's great. I think that so if you are in the right mind space in your in your work, yeah, I think you should you should go for it. Because you'll you'll get a lot out of it differently. Yeah. So I think I had something that's right. I feel like these programs are springboard to a community of practice. And I know that the AES hosts some some communities. I don't personally feel like I'm part of one. And yeah, I'd love to love to be part of one. And yeah, I don't know whether how to how to facilitate that or whether that's whether that's possible. Meaning as I think Duncan was saying that it's a it's a two way learning experience. Like I really feel like no, I don't have a ton of experience with evaluation, but I do feel like I could mentor somebody in the right circumstances because and why would I do it is because I would learn so much. And I would learn one of the things I would learn is what I do know and what I do bring. And it's not just my evaluation experience is my, you know, my all my work in academic experience as well. So but a community of practice, I don't know how that would function. But that is something I'm craving to have a continuing experience of being able to have these sorts of forums. Besides besides webinars and so on. Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. I think that would be really useful way of continuing, continuing and expanding on on the program. And for me, it would be keeping in touch with people in different sectors and getting that just that kind of informal area to discuss different ideas. And because that's really useful, I find in the workplace. But again, that's in your own little bubble. It would be great to be able to brainstorm or just like Duncan was saying before, you know, what emerging technologies are you guys using or those kind of conversations would be really good. Yeah. So that like that to me is one of the differences, the distinctions between one to one buddying mentoring relationship and the group mentoring projects, which the AS has been doing over the last couple of years. And so just a little kind of window in there. I actually threw my hand in that in the group mentoring program as well as a mentee because I was thinking like, how do you provide mentoring if you don't if you're not receiving mentoring? Like, how do you give something you're not getting? And and Rick Cummings, who's an AES fellow said, well, yeah, that yeah, but you you experience like how about like jump in with me and I'll mentor you in mentoring, but then we can mentor this group together. And that's now the way that that program runs. It now has a there's a mentor and an associate mentor in each of the groups. And and I feel like the the community of practice outcomes that you were talking about, Tam, but they they they fall off the tree in a group in a group mentoring context in a way that the one on one, like with there, you get it's really targeted about you and it's very individualised and it's you know, and it's really the sense of kind of intimacy and confidentiality in the relationship that you don't necessarily get in the group environment. So I feel like there's different there's different fruit from different ways of of structuring the the environments. So that that's just a reflection on having having seen both. And I feel like there's benefits in in both. That's very valuable. Thanks. I'm sure Flo was taking notes vigorously about that suggestion because we're always open to trying to do things and do some different stuff. So we may we may well come back to you and explore that and again, test out the interest. Right. Well, I think we're at the end of that session. So I'm happy to wrap up and head over to you, Greg, to go through the remaining slides. OK, and this is going to be the more mechanical stuff, but it will maybe unearth a few more questions. So please jump in at any point and then either in the chat or just there's not that many of us find to take them. OK. OK, so eligibility, who can get in this? For buddies, we do restricted to New South Wales members only or those that are willing to join. So it's a shameless attempt to build our numbers. But we are very happy to have people from across the across the nation involved as evaluators. Obviously, that would then mean it is a, you know, going to be online experience as well. And we were having some very informal chats with other states to see whether they wanted to bring this together as a cross state or even a national program. But, you know, they weren't ready for that. So we thought we'll just go ahead and do our nothing here again. But if we can get some people and I've got someone from the Gold Coast today, so very happy for you to be involved. OK, so launch today. BOIs and applications will close on March the 17th. And I'll tell you about how to do that in a moment. And then the matching. So this mysterious science craft of matching last year that involved Laura and me just put it in two piles of paper, really. And independently saying, well, you know, Bob looks really good with Betty, et cetera, because the EOIs, the applications actually say, well, what's your experience? What's your interest? What do you want to get out of this? And then you get some specific questions about who you might want to be matched with. Is it, you know, based on gender or might be a First Nations evaluator or it might be about a particular sector? So going back to some of the questions that people ask some people, although not many, I think last year from memory, you know, didn't didn't express the presence I really want someone who works in my sector. You know, in environmental management or health or whatever. But all those options are available to you. And that sort of specificity helps help Laura and I then go, OK, that looks like, as it turned out, Laura and Laura would be a really good, really good match. What we do then is, and this is all open and people have to agree to this, is we say, we've made a preliminary match between your A and B. So we go to the buddy first and say, look, it looks like, you know, Greg Masters might be a good mentor for you to, you know, and send send that person my CV, sorry, my application and say, does that look OK for you? And I think we had all 11 people said, yeah, that's great. And similarly, just double checking with the the mentor that they're OK about the person that they've been normally matched to. So that's all done. It's just a check to make sure that, you know, that the matching we've done and we were very nervous about this, frankly, because didn't know how easy it would be, but it worked out to be pretty, pretty straightforward. Now, whether that happens again, I'm not sure. And I did see a question from a whole again about about just that, which was how far this approach to support evaluation capability across the public sector in general. I'm assuming entirely voluntary. Yes, it is entirely voluntary. Or could it should be sample for a paid gig? Well, I think we're doing it as a New South Wales AES committee as a voluntary activity. That's, you know, that's something else for someone to think about. Does each man or committee want just one or could it be more? I think we sort of informally wrote the rule last year was one on one. And I think we'd probably do the same, same this year as well. Just given that it is a voluntary one. It's interesting. We did have one mentor who was also a buddy last year. That's right. Yes. Yeah. So it does show that it very much goes both ways there. After that matching process, I describe some time in mid-April, we would have a kickoff workshop. So we were trying to pick a time which is always challenging when everyone would be available. And that's a chance just to put a bit more meat on the skeleton than we've talked about today and around expectations and the like. And then really get on with it with a formal end, as I said, of the end of November, but with the prospect if people choose to continue. Now, we're we will touch base when I say we, Taliah, so let's wave their time. So Taliah is going to be the contact person. And Taliah has just started working with me at Nexus. So this is all new to her and probably picking up a bit more about today. But Taliah is actually going to be the sort of the contact person for applications and but also just touching base semi-regularly with people to check how it's going. If there are any issues, any support we can provide. But again, really need to stress that this is a you know, a slow, a slight touch program that we don't. It is voluntary and Laura and I are putting quite a bit of effort last year. Willing Lynn and Laura made the extra mile being being a mentor. But I'm sure you all appreciate that. You know, there's only so much we can do with that. So we're really saying as we've heard from people today, they set the direction and take control of the learning. So there we are, Laura and Taliah to review the EOIs and make the preliminary matches. But he asked if that's a suitable, if yes, evaluator is asked to confirm. Can I just jump in there, Greg? Just wanted to comment that I found that EOI process very useful in terms of prompting the reflection of where I would get the most benefit from and gaps in knowledge. And what was on the floor? I can't remember all of the detail, but you mentioned some before. What areas would you like to your body to work in or different interests? And all of those things, I thought that was really like completing that form was quite useful for me going, oh, yeah, you know, I hadn't thought of that. What what would be most useful for me? So that's really good. And again, it makes the matching process easier. The more specific people are about what their expectations are. So if you want to really get into your multivariate analysis of variance, you know, you obviously have to be matched up with someone who's a statistical whiz. So you can see there that people were generally satisfied with the with the matching process and that that was born out of the link to the relationships. So time that's been touched on a couple of times once or twice a month. Over six months as a guide, some people met more frequent as you heard from from Doug about, you know, a bit more early on. I think that's probably a good rule of thumb. And then, you know, but again, pacing is entirely up to you. And and this is an important thing for whatever reason. The thing can be folded and without any repercussions or whatever. So it might be change of job or change in time commitments really encourages people have said that the mentor avoid that as much as possible. But things do happen. And I think we did have one pair, you know, fold because of changing work and other family circumstances, and that's fine. So that's just going to be part of the game. There's not you're not sort of locked into a contractual obligation. And as I said, Talia will be checking in occasionally. Just before you move on, Greg, I think Duncan's got a comment he'd like to make. Oops, Duncan frozen at the wrong moment. Hi, Duncan, can you hear us back now? Sorry, it was the same. My connection was unstable. Yeah, just as the law was hanging out to you. Oh, yeah. So sometimes you don't know what you want. And I wouldn't want people to get the impression that you have to have like a really mapped out career plan and and, you know, exactly what you want from your mentor and like you're really super organized because sometimes sometimes what you where you're at is to say, I feel tired. I feel frustrated in what I'm doing. I feel stuck and I feel like I don't know what is around the corner. And so what I want is somebody to help me navigate that stuff. And I don't have anybody to help me navigate that stuff. Then chances are like a mentoring relationship, like you haven't necessarily kind of mapped out. This is exactly what I want. But you're just kind of saying, this is the situation that I'm in. And what I'd like is somebody who has experience in this sector to help me navigate this. That for me, there's heaps you can do with that as a mentor. And part of what you're going to do is help people work out what is going to be helpful for themselves and and help people identify good questions to reflect on in order to help work that out. So I think there's a there's a there's a layers thing that that I think when you've got somebody who's really organized in their mind and they're really clear about what they want, then fantastic. You play it from there. But then if someone's not, then you play it from wherever it is. Like, like that you can't pretend that you're in a different situation than than you're in. You just play it from from where it is and a good mentoring relationship will honor whatever starting point you you're at. Yeah, I think that's super advice. And it actually makes me think I should put my hand up as a buddy. OK, and there you are. I can see that sort of once a month type thing a little bit more. It was pretty common what people did and the vast majority given circumstances last year, but just the geographical separation. Some people were on online. I think we've already had these confidential results have already been de-identified as a result of our close revelations. But I'm sure you don't mind too much. We're on the same page at least. So apply. There is a form on the AES website or probably the easier way to get this from from Talia. So that's her email address there or hunt me down or flow down or whatever. And more information, you know, either Talia or Laura. I think Laura is going to have more of an administrative role in it this year. And I'm going to actually put my hand up as a as a as a mentor this time. So actually immerse myself in. And we've already got a few people that started to express interest. So I can really encourage you to my my my other great fear about the difficulty of the matching processes that we don't get sufficient numbers. So I'm really encouraged people to jump in. Oh, I'm going to stop. Sharing there and back to Laura. My yep, there we go. Thank you, everyone. We really appreciate the opportunity to talk through this with you today. We're really excited about your interest in the program. And as Greg said, just really encourage you to to take part to spread the word amongst your colleagues and friends as well. We'd love to get as many people involved as we can. So please read the word. Are there any questions before we wrap up the session today that you haven't been able to ask? I may just add something in response to role suggestion. It's interesting around all that that this whole program looks super interesting. And shouldn't we build that as part of the, you know, across the public service in general, we're thinking about that. Yes, definitely. I'm just wondering if it's those big organizations or, you know, bureaucracies in the in the white and broad sense. I'm not sure if they're well suited, maybe it could be if you have an organization that is open to that and to often sort of a fluid space for this kind of of things, like really making it like a mentoring program. Not because we've done that, yes, with the, you know, ACT Academy actually was quite interesting, but it's still in a very in task or, you know, project frame, which is, you know, because the organizations, you know, you need to say, OK, what is it going to help you with practically? Whereas in this sort of more, you know, mentoring and even more informal budding program, it's fluid. You don't necessarily know what you're going to ask for. You don't, you don't, you know, don't see the next hurdle. So if you have an organization that is happy and open to provide this, you know, license to be fluid and an open, definitely. But maybe that's the space for professional organizations like ours to be, I think, yeah. Thanks, you've got a thumbs up there. Just wanted to touch on Magnolia's question in the chat. So we do ask that you be AES members to be involved in the program. So and, yeah. And that's for mentees and for mentors as well, I believe, Greg. That's right. Yeah. And if anybody is interested, you know, in applying and which is no commit, but I need to apply. It doesn't mean you're committed. Feel free to shoot me your email in the chat now. And that will be a quick way of getting your forms as well. Yeah. And and just here in the conversation, Greg, I think one thing I would say is if anyone's on the edge of thinking would I put my hand up to be a mentor on this one? One thing that we could offer, well, certainly like I'd be happy to offer is mentoring and mentoring. So like, so, like. So you're getting it, so getting a bit better. But yeah, like that might be the thing to say, like, well, if I had somebody who could ride shotgun with me as I set this up and that I could debrief on how the mentoring thing is going, then I'd be happy to do it. Then, like, that's surely that's the kind of thing that we could, you know, just make happen on the side. Yeah. And then you'll learn how to talk with hands. Thank you for that constructive feedback flow. That's a very generous offer. Thank you, Duncan. Well, we've got a couple of people pop things in there. Daniel, do you just want to shoot through your email if that's OK? If you're happy to do that or subsequently, that's fine. You can. Yeah. If that works, you can do it in mentee. But yeah, it's probably if you're on the mentee now. Brilliant. That works. And you've got the opportunity to suggest some topics for future seminars as well. We're always welcoming ideas. Oh, OK. I missed you. You made me one. Thanks, Claire. Yeah, well, thank you, everyone, for coming today. I think we're ready to close unless there's anything else you wanted to say, Greg. Now, the call hang around if anybody does want to have a quick one on one chat about it or about life in general. Otherwise, yeah, thanks for your interest.