 Hello, hello, happy Saturday. Can I have an Instagram moment? Welcome, everybody. I am so happy you've joined us today. Everything we do at the Brooklyn Museum is done with a passionate belief in art and artists. So it is honor to be here today with two deeply inspiring artists who have used their art for true social good. Not only do they believe in the primacy of the experience between art and the viewer, they believe in the power of art to transform culture, society, and even policy. And each of them is contributing to greater goodness in the world with empathy and understanding. Everything Tanya Bergara does, performances, sculptures, public art, is motivated from a sense of urgency to fight oppression and create greater dignity in the world. She's done so with courage. In 2011, when I was still the president and artistic director of Creative Time, I had the honor of working with Tanya to present her dream project of fighting to, well, her dream project of raising attention for immigrant rights with Immigrant Movement International, along with our partners at the Queens Museum, with then director Tom Finkel-Pearl. Tom is here today. And as the commissioner of the Department of Cultural Affairs, he has paved the way for Tanya to be an artisan residence at the New York City Department of Immigrant Affairs. Tom, thank you. Like Weiwei, Tanya is an ardent fighter for the inalienable human right to free and creative expression. For this, she too has received globally prestigious awards and recognition. And for this, she too has been arrested. In 2014, she was apprehended by the Cuban government for attempting to stage a performance, mind you, one she had done previously, in her native Havana's Revolution Square. For simply planning to set up a microphone where citizens could express their dreams for Cuba, Tanya was arrested multiple times and spent months under house arrest. When it comes to what's right, Tanya never backs down. So just recently, she announced she'd be running for president of Cuba when Raul Castro steps down, as he has said he will do in 2018. Believe me, I know Tanya. She's serious about this, right, Tom? Yep. Of course, this is also absurd, because Cuba is not a democracy. Tanya always gets right to the heart of things. She once told me, I don't want to make an art that points at the thing, politics in this case. I want to be the thing. Weiwei, welcome home to Brooklyn. Activist, architect, curator, filmmaker, even sometimes a pop star, Weiwei is perhaps the most widely recognized artist in the world. Today, he returns to Brooklyn for the first time since his legendary detainment by the Chinese government in 2011 that led to four years of house arrest. Brooklyn holds a special place in Weiwei's heart, as it is where he first lived when moving to New York City in the 1980s. And it's home to his retrospective here at our museum in 2014. How many of you got to see that retrospective? Pretty mind blowing, right? And by the way, our former director, Arnold Lehmann, sends his love to all of you. He also holds a special place in our heart from the show that it was clear that there is no holding Weiwei back either. And there is no project too big for him, from his collaboration on the bird's nest stadium for Beijing's 2008 Olympics. Sunflower seeds in 2010 scattered a million of hand-painted handmade porcelain seeds in the Tate's Turbine Hall to his recent work calling attention to the Syrian refugee crisis. Weiwei, we thank you. You may recall that at Weiwei's retrospective at the museum, it included a site-specific installation of 600 bicycles in our great hall. And today we share with you our brand-new addition of Weiwei bikes made just for us. It's a very limited edition and it does know what no other artwork I think has ever done. It looks great as you ride around it on the street as well as on the wall. So you too can have order one today. Check it out. It's at the entrance of the auditorium. And I want to thank Listen Gallery for their support and Wovo who's storing this and actually showing it at their storage and viewing space for us. So who's up for holiday shopping today? I'd also like to thank one of our dearest friends, the one and only Larry Warsh, whose commitment to Weiwei and to his presence at the Brooklyn Museum is endless. I want to thank Sharon Matt Atkins, our vice director for exhibitions and collections manager for her tireless energy toward the 2014 retrospective and her ongoing relationship with Weiwei. And also Dana Gluck, our special projects WizKid, whose determination made today's program possible. And last but not certainly least, I'd like to thank our trustees and board of advisors who are here today that have made everything possible at the Brooklyn Museum. Stephanie Ingrassia, Jill Bernstein, Ellen Taubman, Victoria Rogers, Leslie Beller, Nikola Durichek, Anya Rubik, Susan Sils. Thank you very much for what you do for the museum. Now, yes, I think they should do it with us. Finally, I want to say that we're in midst of a tremendous moment in New York for Ai Weiwei. In addition to today, his only public speaking engagement during his visit to New York, we are also all fortunate to have an opportunity to witness four simultaneous exhibitions in November. At Listen Gallery in Chelsea, hello to our Listen family, to two shows with Mary Boone, and a show at Dyche Projects with our very dear friend, Jeffrey Dyche. So without further ado, it is my absolute honor and deepest pleasure to welcome our special guests to the stage, Tanya Ai Weiwei. Please join us. Thank you. Hi. Thank you for coming on a Saturday. And I want to thank Anne Pasternak, who always have wonderful wild ideas for inviting me to be here. I just want to thank the staff of the museum for all the help and assistance in this. And I want to welcome Ai Weiwei today. And we're going to start having a conversation. I'm going to put some images of his work. I'm going to ask him questions, and then so on. And then you guys can ask us questions. I have to say that when Anne first emailed me to tell me about this idea, the first thing I thought about was the face of my interrogators in Cuba, when they know we are here together today. I'm sure they don't want us to exchange notes. So, OK, hopefully we do. OK, so here, of course, we're starting to see when you were in New York. And of course, in one of your many interviews, you said that you left China to escape the political situation back then. Then you came to New York, and you integrated the IRC in here. But then you went back to China. And at the time you were in China, there was this kind of, as we saw it from the West, this kind of effervescent and enthusiastic and critical Chinese arson when you came back. And you were, of course, help on that very much. But then now it looks like from here that you are one of the very few dissident voices in the art in China. So my question, because in Cuba we going through the same phenomenon where we had a very critical mass of artists that now are very interested in the market and in pleasing the visitors, let's say. So my question would be, if you can tell me more or less, how was the process in China, in the arson in China, to go from this kind of critical subversive scene to this kind of more commodity arson, if that's correct? Thank you. This is Ai Weiwei, and first I'm very grateful to have a chance to be in the museum. And two years ago I had to show here that time I was not allowed to come. But I do feel I'm already part of this institution. I think the Brooklyn Museum is a very special institution. It's a little bit off-center, have its own unique way. And it's very important for the art community in both metropolitan area and in Brooklyn. And thank you for bearing with me for this past next hour. Before we come here, I start to take selfies with many of you. In the garden, I thought it would be nice because outside is such a beautiful day and we can just stay there taking selfies for the next two hours. And to answer the question, China is a very different situation. It's very similar to Cuba. I should say, since the end of 1970, I'm one among the first group of so-called avant-garde. It's not so avant-garde. It's a little different from what the government is doing. But that already being seen as rebounding or dissident. So it's the name always given by Western media. And you can see that creates some kind of group which is using the Western more Western inference and doing works. But of course, that is not really inferential in the society like China, I assume in Cuba also, because basically there's no platform. So those people are really in a terrible situation. But the only attraction would be to foreign embassies or foreign media. So then I left, I spent about 12 years in the United States, 10 years in this city, mostly in Manhattan. I spent about a few months in Williamsburg, Lorimer Street. And my landlord's name is Robinovich. And at that time, that area is very quiet. Of course, there's no artists in the area. As Parsons students, we rent an apartment. And it's a very mixed neighborhood. So talk about the art today in China. There's very little question about or even in relating to political issues, because that is clearly forbidden. And so after generations has been punished, if you have any opinion or any even just attitude can be openly questioning the authority which will be punished. So my father's generation and the same. My father was a poet and was sent to exile for years. And so it's very clear it's not allowed. Even China has been booming in many ways just like the West. Or even in many ways has much more freedom than the West, because the law and the establishment is not there. And seems everything goes, but only once it doesn't happen is. So-called freedom or freedom of speech. So I think when there's no freedom of speech, there's no freedom. And but yeah, but I often make a silly statement. So forgive me. And yeah, to see then the art in general is trying to meet the demand of the Western market. Whoever pays then become trendy and attract all those students. And yeah, that's the condition. Yeah, it's the same in Cuba at the moment. It's interesting that you talk about this history of repression, of course, that is so long there. In our case, we also have generations of people who have been afraid. So when you have the censorship is starting in the house. Like your father or your mother say, don't do this because you're going to have a problem. And so it's interesting. A lot of people say about you that you are very courageous. So I wonder what advice will you give to somebody that feel afraid of repercussions? Yeah, it's a good question. Because in such a large society, we have 1.3 billion people. And you're really to see one stand up in any kind of principle. So I often ask why. I think if your child be poisoned by some kind of pollution in the milk powders, they're devastating over 30 million children. And where's their parents? And when an earthquake would put 5,000 students under those rubbles, all dead. Where are those parents? And then we understand this society is such a very established communist. It come to every level. So it will really erase or sell any person from a very bottom condition. So each family, like if your child was killed in an earthquake, would have seven officials just focus on one parent. They become like warfare and give pressure to you because you can't lose your job. You can never find a peace in your life if you fight. And it's all under the name so-called stability of a society, or a harmonious society. But it really at the cost of every family, everybody, and sacrifice the very essential beliefs of justice or fairness. So naturally, if you do anything your parents will see already affect you. Your daddy's job under your sister-in-law's job, they would check on every aspect. It's a very, very sophisticated system. And very detailed. They go into the person in detail. They're not talking about the very precise. And they make sure there's no single voice can be heard. And they use a lot of resources. I had four interrogators. They rotate. And I'm like, what? They have nothing else to do with these people. It's interesting how they spend so much money and resources. I mean, talking about that made me think. And preparing for this, I saw a lot of your interviews. And I was saying, wow, a lot of things look very similar in terms of, as you say, how the states respond to these threats. There are just humans asking for the rights or asking the wrong question on the view. And for example, in Cuba, it's very normal that the state police work with the Ministry of Culture. Like, for example, in my case, you had the head of the Arts Council in Cuba going to a meeting to talk to the artist who are in the School of the Arts, a professional student, together with the person from the Department of State Police, and talk openly. Like, yeah, we are collaborating, no problem. It's very interesting. So I wonder, just to change some, to see if I can get some wisdom here, how to fight them there, how did they, what kind of strategies they have used in terms of with the artists? Like, how is this collaboration with the state police or the state security and with the arts? Do they also have these things where the Ministry of Culture is trying to intervene? Or for example, in Cuba now, there are these lists of artists who are the official artists. And if you're not in the list, if you say something wrong, you are not in the list. So none of these people here, when they go to Cuba, will see those artists. So I wonder if, how do they do it there? How do they do that stuff there? How do they control the information with the artist? Before, it was much easier. Before the so-called free economy, it was much easier because everyone belonged to a working unit. Not only you, every family, and the school or street, even though they don't have for this kind of community, but on every street, they would have one, how do you someone in the street just to watch or to maintain some kind of security code? So you all have communist control. So anything happens, police or state police and also street community worker, which is also worker for the party. And also the working unit, they also have a party representative. They would all come together, they all be informed. And if you're in school, the school teacher and the principal all informed. So you are really in a society which clearly being watched and trained. And they're just, this is very professional. That's what they do. And they do the best. So it's very simple for them. When there is no clear law to protect freedom of speech under the judicial system, it's not independent. And there's no free price. So simply anybody who acted on its own mind, which is very weird because the education already told you this is not possible. But if something happened like someone like me, it's kind of a little bit naive or crazy in a certain sense. And then you can easily be sent to a mental hospital because it must be something wrong. Even you know this is what hurt you or hurt your family. And you're still not to listen and still act the way you do. It must be something wrong. So I have a question. Of course I do. No, but following on that. Seems you have too many questions. No, following on that, at least one of the ways of attack, at least during socialist or communist time, at least in Cuba, is that if you dissent, you are representing the far right crazy win of the immigrants of your country in another place or something like that. They accuse you of being a mercenary of the CIA. They accuse you to be like somebody like a ignorant. They accuse of so many things if you dare to criticize. And I was wondering, in the political spectrum, where do you situate yourself? What's the question? Where do you situate yourself politically in all the variety of options that sometimes some people have? I don't have a clear political party or so-called left or right wing. I consider myself as an individual, which I think always would be the strongest position you one person can have as an individual. And that's how my voice is being heard about. And how many, many people see me as an example because they can sense what an individual can be. And of course, all those based on the help of the internet, based on the internet, I will not be, I will wait today. And ironically, I was set up internet by state. At that time, I was an architect and I was quite famous. Architects in China, they said, you have to have this block. So, you know, 2005, China just set up their own block called Sina. They said, you are the perfect person to have this block, which turned out to be true. At that time, I never touched the computer and don't know how to type. They said, no problem. We'll give you an assistant to do that. So that girl is very convincing. And I think why not? I always curious and want to learn. And once I touch the computer, it takes me like half a day to think of the one line to put on my first post because I write down to express yourself need a reason, but to express yourself is the reason. That takes me half a day just to use my one finger to tap it. And since that, I realize I don't want to sleep anymore. Every day I spend my time on the internet. I just pick up any topic I start. Freedom is addictive. Freedom is addictive. It's very addictive. It's, you know, I had some kind of illusion. And I even said, it gave me three years. I would change everything. And they gave me two and a half years. They put me in jail. So it's almost there. I got like 27 million people visit my blog. And they repost everything I post. And each day I would post one, two, three articles. You know, every morning I just open the newspaper. I see some topic. I start to talk about it. And I got so over excited. That's how it started. They never know what they, you know. Let's go back to the art. This is one of my. Art. What is art? Exactly. No, you have the question. This is one of the images I feel more connected to, because I see art as a gesture. But I wonder, I want to hear from you. Do you consider this more like a gesture, like an image? How do you talk about this? I did this in 1995, around that time. That time I was not really an active artist. I had this Nikon camera, which, you know, I have three. So you can take a very fast photo in one second or less than a second. So I showed my brother. So he said, please take the photo. And I, you know, he missed the first one. I didn't catch it. So I happened to have a second of us, which is a hot dynasty 2,000 years old. And I told him, if you miss this one, then that's over. So he's a good photographer. He catch that image. Then that image will stay there. I'm published for about over 10 years. You know, I never think it's serious. I never think it's a, it's more or less like a joke. But it takes a serious person a long, long, long time to make that joke. I think, and I didn't be recognized as an artist till 2004 or 2005 to make my first show. So that's already 10 years past. So during that time, I realized on my resume, there's always a period of time, like 10 years or five years, I have nothing to write. You know, I didn't do anything. I would just, I did something even not mentionable in this, in here. So I, of course, I printed out, then now become, I have sorry to say this, become a serious image, you know, but really come as a joke. When I saw, and this is a gossip that I want to share with you so you clarify the gossip, there was an artist called Caminero, who went to the Palm Museum and he took one of your pieces and broke it. And it was said that it was inspired on your own work. How do you react to that when you heard about it, like? He, after he did it, he apologized to me. I think I write to him, I said something like, yes, you have rights to state in your mind or to make a gesture, but also you have to bear some kind of responsibility for that gesture. You know, any, any activity we have to bear responsibility doesn't matter, otherwise the attitude is never free. So, of course, I totally understand him, you know, I will do, I will not say I will do the same thing, I did the same thing. So I don't really know what is the last result. I think they did a little bit minor charge with some kind of community work or something, yeah. But, you know, this is, but I mentioned, you know, this is, you normally do to your own property. It's not encouraged to do somebody else's property because in United States we all know that's a violation of something, you know. Well, but, but at the same time our work creates certain reactions, you know, the work and the way we see art as in a very, you know, iconoclastic way, let's say, also create this excitement from the audience to do something similar. So I think this is- I think they're doing private my home and I don't encourage anybody come out of this room. You know, this is a museum, you know. If you really has to be careful. I just wanted to clarify that because it was a lot of gossip and, you know, what was true. So, okay, so here we have, talking about that. Okay. You have said that the reason why the government and this kind of non-freedom of expression can survive there is because they limit the information to ordinary people. So they cannot make any judgment or anticipate because they don't have enough information. That's a quote from one of your interviews, no? And you say we have to speak the truth and stand for the people and not for power. My question is, do you think change in China or in China specifically will come from top down or from bottom up? How do you, grassroots, how do you see the possibility of great change? Yeah, there's many discussions where the change will come from. You know, it's from top down or from bottom up. Slime, can we talk about one spring will come. It's come from the frozen river, the ice start to melt or from the tip of the tree, the first green will come. I think mostly it come from the temperature. So we have a trust on sunshine. With one sun comes up, we all think, oh, what a nice day. Why we have to sit inside in the darkness to listen to this old Chinese guy talking about the sun. So I think it comes from everywhere, it comes from you and me and everywhere and come from freedom of speech, come from we defend the very essential values which is about justice, fairness and with all that, it comes from nowhere or never come. Yeah, and then we have another version of the same work. Now I have more reason to have this. Yeah, I think we both criticize our own countries but also we criticize the West, both of us are critic and post. At the moment there is something that is happening in Cuba and I wonder if it happened in China as well at some point where people from the United States and Europe go there and they actually self censor themself. They go there and they see things are wrong but they self censor, they accept the government doing things to people that they will not accept in their own places as a matter of principle and it's interesting because a lot of these people when you talk to them they say, no, you know, you have to be careful because I want to position myself in the future of Cuba or in the future I have a space and I think they don't understand that the future of Cuba is now, is done by their own actions today and that's how you shape the future of Cuba. So I was, my question was actually, how do you think or what do you think is our responsibility with others and with other places? Yeah, often being asked by same question by foreign, I would say the foreign politicians or businessmen or powerful person they said whatever we do may hurt you or would help you or what's your position on that? I always tell them, there's no my position, what's your position on that? How do you think it's right or wrong? You know, you don't have to think about it, it may hurt somebody or to be courteous but just do what you think is right. So I think that's the only, I think every day we have to ask the same question, do we really can tolerate this kind of thing happen, this kind of society, this kind of suffering and there's no excuse for not to give out your voice in any circumstance. So that's my answer, yeah. I wish more people said do that. I'm doing a selection of what I like, so I'm sorry about that. So here, I want to make a little statement before we talk about this. I want to thank you because in this series of work you put a Cuban dissident and I want to thank you because it's not normal that these people who are normally in Cuba are anonymous and they actually very brave and they stand in front of the government nothing but their own bodies and I want to thank you for that. It was included in this list of important dissidents and important fighters for freedom. So that's my personal on that. So I want to go back to, okay let me see, sorry, you can see I'm not into sculpture so I'm like, sorry. But we can come back when you ask questions. You can see all the images. Okay, so this is a very interesting work. I was, I didn't know about this before now and I was thinking it is kind of a representation of a very intense experience you had and I was wondering how do you negotiate the entrance of this very intense experience to places like a museum or the art world? How do you negotiate that? How do you do the transition? How you, what are your tactics or your techniques to invite people to think about these issues there? So distance for their experience. First I, in my life, never negotiating with artists, world, not a gallery, not a museum. I'm so privileged and lucky to have a chance to show in very important institutions and to be associated with many, many interesting people. But for me, art is the way I defense and there's no negotiation. This is what I do. Take it or not to, not to have me. So, and yeah, that's the way it's always been like that. And from a starting point on the, I'm sure it's gonna be till the end. So, but not everybody has this kind of privilege or lucky. Luck. And of course you have to consider many sense, you know, the museum is built for general public and very often use the taxpayers' money. So you have to have some kind of given take in the display. And you have to be a little bit, you know, even if you just like to eat spicy food, but when you have guests, you also have to cook some, something like, you know, now we have a lot of vegetarians and, you know, we have to be courtesed to that, you know. We're in democratic society, so. And here we have an image of, here, where you put the flowers for the camera. How do you think aesthetics can disarm repression? Or do you think it could become disarm repression? I think this is a very interesting topic because my house has been surrounded over dozens of surveillance cameras. I ask them, say, why you need so many? You know, it's such a waste. It's some kind of system breakdown or you prevent something, they say, no, you don't understand. Some belong to the street, some belong to the local governor, some belong to the state governor. So they don't trust each other, they have layers. And I don't know if they ever get together. So I decide to also have my own private camera. So each day, because I don't have a chance to travel, I think that's not right. How can you limit somebody's chance to travel? But also there's no space for argument. There's no sense of discussion, you know. If there's a little bit of sense of discussion, then everything can be solved. So I said, okay, under this kind of condition, what I can do is just put the bike there and each day to put a fresh flowers to give to myself, to celebrate my impossibility to move. So I did this day by day. And you know, this is from a one image grabbed from our videos, which our own surveillance camera. And after 600 days, each day we also post whatever is on the internet. It generates a lot of attention. So on the internet, there's that period of time, there's called a freedom for flowers for freedom. And each day I will receive hundreds of flowers from all over the world. It becomes some kind of movement. I think this concern is very, very disturbing for the authority. Yes. And they like to be clean. They like to say, okay, the voice is not there but they cannot really stop this kind of action because there's no clear reason for them to stop. They also have their own reasoning under their own system. So to put a flower there, they only say, well, we can't, can you not to do it? You know, they also negotiate. So I said, that's not possible. You know, you have my passport, I just put my fresh flowers there. I know, you know, this is not possible. So when you have this kind of negotiation, why you can't win only because they know if they stop you or generate something else, which will be even worse than this. So I think that there's always a way to bargain. So I'm very good at the person in that, I've been proved. Yes, you are. Yeah, no, and also they, sometimes they know they're going to look bad. I mean, in those rights fighting, many people always have ideas, big ideas, but they forget to do very small things, which can relate to everybody. Absolutely. And it requires determination and it requires some kind of skill. And I think that's very important because that brings a detailed life and reaches our life. You know, it's just like the color or shapes of each individual flowers. It only comes when you have that. If you don't have that, you don't have flowers, you know. Yeah. No, they know that very well and sometimes they know they're going to look bad if they repress you because it's little gestures, but they want to show the power. They want to show they are the one in power. But another thing that I wanted to ask you is one thing I want to say before talking about this piece is that it was funny in Cuba. Now I think the censorship who work, of course with the actual state police, before they censor your work, when they are going to show, they go to the exhibition to see what is showing, they say no, this, no, this, no. Then they went to the studio of the artist, they say this, no, this, no. Now they imagine the work you want to do and they repress you for the thing you haven't even think about yet. So it's very crazy the day they position the cell in our heads, no? But going back to the art world, you have made this wonderful piece from the cameras and I have, I mean, this is a question that happens a lot around you and around any successful political artist, me, you, everybody, there is always this question about the relationship between the political statement we want to do and the success we have in the art world or the success we have or some political artists like you have in the kind of commercial world. And my question is, do you think or do you struggle with art as a medium of efficiency? And do you, for the things you want to say, and if you think that this tension between the money that you receive for your art and the political statement you want to do is something that changes the desire you have to communicate the issues? I mean, how you relate to this conundrum that we have. Your question is not so clear, but I tried to... I was trying to be polite. I tried to answer it. Yeah, I know, but that's not the right way, you know. I think being a political artist or so-called political artist, you're first in your human, you know, you're not just making some statement with a skill. You can play the game, you think you're smart enough and you also can play all kinds of games because that's about life. It's not about being political or not. I mean, surviving is a political and we are living in a society we have to respect human behaving and that could include so-called economically success. If I've been politically very active but financially very poor, I will feel sorry for myself. I'm also sorry for the basic values I'm fighting for. I'm not successfully communicating. I'm not delivering my knowledge and I never really create a language or a skill for so-called ideology. Is that a clear answer for you? No, no, but I have a follow-up question. But sometimes those objects or those images circulate in the places where the political friction or the political message is being erased because in which hands they are or how they circulate. So they take other meanings, you know, so. Of course, this always misunderstanding or misinterpretation, you know, we can never really control how the world and it's like you jump in the river, you don't know where that would take you or really push you or which side of the border you can reach. But still the decision is are you going to jump into it or are you going to still think you can survive in this? Do you think there will be for you other mediums other than art or in art that will be more efficient to show this kind of struggle? I don't think so. I don't trust the media. Even this most important thing also myself, also media, but I think we change all the time and we also have different kind of intellectual or levels. So I also, I think in the public media people, there's really very surfacing and it's never go that deep and maybe because the viewers doesn't really want to be that deep, you know, people just want to see what can be seen and what matters in the very short time. Talking about, let me show this work. I want to a little bit more in detail about this idea of ethics and politics. And as you might know, this image generated a lot of criticism and generates a very adverse reaction. And the fact that you were posing like Alan Kurdi, a three-year-old kid who drone in the shore of Turkey, it was seen as a kind of, you know, as a kind of the substitution of one body from another, one body that actually captured the magnitude of the Syrian refugee crisis by another body of an artist or activist or somebody who, you know, is not going through this. So it did create some sort of ethical dilemma, you know, that a lot of artists discussed. And I wanted to know how you react to the claims that were done when you showed this image and everybody start questioning your position. I don't react to them. Okay. They only, my only position is to let them react to me. Okay. And I made it very clear. And so. Okay, but okay, you don't react, that's your right. But do you understand or how do you see the way in which us as artists intervene these situations that are not our own situations and the responsibility we have to not take away from the situation the light? You know, because in this case it wasn't. I'm an artist, I'm not a priest. I don't, I'm not necessarily seeing what my act would be right or wrong. I raise questions, I put myself into those questions. And if I do care like everybody else care, I will never become an artist. I'm different. And I'll always be different. And how do you feel with this image? Okay. And how do you feel? To answer your very clear, I don't give a damn shit about it. Great. Okay. Last question about this image. How do you feel that an image like this that was your first one? Image, like anything is an image. You know, we have a much, much worse image in the world. We can always accept it, you know, just take it or fuck it. Okay. So, but sometimes we have to fuck the artist too. Do it. Okay, we have five minutes and we'll come back. Just do it. No, but I think it's an interesting conversation because right now political art is something that is... Do you know how many people died this year? Just tell me the number. How many people died in... Hundreds of thousands people. How many people died in the past year? Not hundreds of thousands of people in this ocean. Just tell me the number. I know there are millions of people who died. No, no, no, no, no. As a political artist, just tell me how many people was wrong in the past year. I don't have the exact number right now. That's the right answer. 3,800 people dropped. I'm not working on the same crisis at the moment. I know you're a partially political artist or you're just... Or a Cuban political artist. I'm not like that. I'm very seriously about what I'm doing. Yeah, but I think that... Okay, where the seriousness reside? Where the seriousness of your work reside? You say you're very serious about it. Where do you position the seriousness? I know what I'm doing. I do clear research. And I'm more deeply involved than most people you can even imagine about. We did over 1,000 hours of documentary films on refugee situation. Personally, I interviewed over 100 politicians. That makes some sense. I traveled a dozen nations in Middle East. In many, many nations. I don't even want to mention it. I visited over dozens of camps. I see all those children, those women, those pregnant, those old people. And I share what they feel and what's in their fear or what they desired or how they've been refused. So talk about this topic. I'll be too emotional even to answer you on this stage. You just watch my film or come out next year. So what do you think art can do to solve this problem or to address this problem? Art can do to teach ourselves to be a real person. First, we need the first hand knowledge. We cannot just blah, blah, blah. We have to be real and we have to be involved. Okay, I'm involved, so. Okay, good. So, no, I think there is also a tendency to see art as right now as something that can collaborate with other areas of politics or society. So I think personally that the art, right now art is extremely important to understand not only the situation but also to solve it. And I think in a way, I don't know what you think about this, but in a way maybe one of the biggest challenges we have as artists today is actually not so much the most of production, like what is happening in the mode of production, but how can we implement the ideas in society at large? I don't know if you. Can you ask again? Again, yeah. So I, you know, for many, many years, the discussion has been about the ethics or the ways in which production of an artwork is made. And I feel that now this discussion is very old and we have very good arguments about it. And I feel that now is more about how can we implement art inside society? Not only to look at something, not only to generate something, people can look at it, but something that generate every action actually that is about caring, a reaction that is about being involved. And also maybe even imagine other ways to solve the problems through our creativity that maybe politicians or, I don't know, organizations have not had the time or the... I don't think we can find a way to solve the problem. I think the problem will always be there. And, but we are not gonna be always be there. So we're using our time trying to solve our own problem. You know, we are part of the problem. And yeah, if I make a simple, it's like that. Okay, so on that note, I want to see if anybody has a question. I did a project where I use one minute of free speech and in one minute people say a lot of things. So I will encourage people to use a minute to make their question to I. And yeah. Yeah, if we make it short, we still have a time to take selfies. Yeah. If you have a question, we ask that you line up on either side of the aisles and use the microphone. What? Oh, I don't have anything to say for the whole minute. I was just wondering, what is your thoughts about Russia and how Russia and China becoming best pals? Thank you. For you? For you. No, it's for him, no? She just mentioned your name. It's for you. Who's the cursor for? For you. For me. My name is Ah Wei Wei. I think this question is very general, you know, how China and Russia become a pal. And they are neighbors. Russia and China, it's probably one or two of the biggest nation in that area or that geographically. I don't think they ever can become a friend. And it's very hard for anybody to become a friend of Russia. And China is very practical. They are, they have to have Russia as some kind of political allies. It's just like United States and Canada, maybe. And yeah, but they also, yeah, they also share the problems. They often has been blamed together, but you know, the world is not just United States or Europe. You have also balanced counter powers. And the not necessarily is bad. You know, sometimes it also is needed. That's my personal opinion. Okay, thank you. Hi, hello. I've been a big fan of your work. I've seen it in Alcatraz at San Francisco and I was also here two years ago, so it's a great honor to hear you speak today. And my question is, I know a lot of your work deals with very emotional subjects, just like with the work you did two years ago with the, you made the snake with the backpacks of the Shushan children. And just the whole concept of that series I felt was so emotional. So how do you reconcile that emotion with your work? Like how do you approach topics that are so overwhelmingly tragic or like so incredibly sad? How do you work with topics like that? Well, as an artist, I'm always very emotionally involved. You can see even I'm on stage, I'm very emotionally involved with the topics. And I cannot, by doing something at the same time, not to really believe in it. So that I rather not to do it, you know. That's how it comes out like that. But the artworks you see is always just some fragments. And I actually see my emotions much deeper than those works. And as you always have to find a simple language which the language can be shared. Hi. Of course, we talk about both of you being really kind of brave risk taking individuals in order to challenge an oppressive system or to be political at all. But I think there's also kind of bravery and risk involved in being an artist at all anywhere. And so I was wondering if you just have any advice for someone trying to take the plunge and risk to make it as someone in the arts. You're from here? Yeah, from. Should I answer the question or the lady should answer the question? Either of you. You're both awesome. Then you go ahead. I think for me it is about, for me it is very easy, or is easier, it's not easy, but it's easier to as an artist to confront issues of politics, of a government and so on. I think what I do and I wish more, and maybe you could do, I don't know, is that to not stay only in the criticism of the outside of the art world, but I think we have the responsibility because we shape the art world. And the art world is also a responsibility and we might have more impact there than we have in the government of China or the government of Cuba. And I think my advice will be that always say what you think is wrong no matter what the price is, because it will make you feel so good. I think for me it's very easy, if you look at Trump, you think that that person still can be your president. I mean if you get different answers so you have to come out some kind of language to stay to stay to your mind. Otherwise this kind of thing can take over. It's crazy, it's dangerous, and it will affect our life. So we just to be, to act, okay. Hi, this question is for Ai Weiwei. It's also a comment as well. First I commend you, I think it's incredibly courageous to be a political artist. And so when I saw your work in San Francisco, at Alcatraz as well, and I think it brought a lot of awareness and really I think my question is rooted in that is what do I do with that awareness now? What do you suggest big and small acts? If you aren't a political artist, what can I do to also hear my voice get heard? I am not very clear what are you asking, but to... What should we do? Like if you're... What should you do? Yeah, what to do with the awareness? Take a shower or... Open the window, you know, or open the refrigerator to see what kind of best thing you can cook today. You know, that's what I do. You know, I never call myself as a political artist. Somebody calls me that. I think it's an insult, but I accept it. Did not mean to insult you. Why do you think it's an insult? Because every art has to be political. If it's not political, it's not art. So if you just say somebody is political artist, it's an insult, you know. That's how I look at the world. Aesthetics always relate to moral, always relate to our philosophy. And some art can be really out of that circumstance. I don't understand it. Yeah. There. Sorry. It's okay. Hi, my question is for you, Ai Weiwei. I'm also a great fan of yours. I've seen your work in Paris and Athens. And I think we all agree that you're a very famous and successful artist. And one of your ideals is freedom. Do you think that success and fame has given you more freedom? Or is it restricting you? I think successful is, if the words exist, it's just me or more recognized or people give you some kind of security to give you some kind of categories, not to sink deeper about this. And for me, it just means responsibility. And I just realized in the past few days, my blood pressure getting much higher. Used to be 90 to 140. Today, this morning before I walking, it's 116,150. So that's how, for me, it's been, if I take so many selfies, I have to shake so many hands and I have to answer the question repeatedly for very, very essential values. You need a patient, you need to be okay. You said, okay, I have to do this. Can I ask another question? Sorry, my turn. Hi there. First of all, I bug you quite a lot on Twitter. So thank you for being responsive and for not blocking me. Second of all, I was wondering if you've been in contact with and can therefore provide an update on your former lawyer, Pu Zichang. What does the future hold for him and what role, if any, will you play in it? Pu Zichang was a lawyer in China. Many people may not know him, but he's a kind of civil rights lawyer. And he was sentenced for five years, but not really in jail, but stays at home. You know, it's like you're being sentenced, but you're not being put in jail. It's some kind of tolerance. And of course, I talk to him, I Skype with him, but not much, you know, anybody can do. Even he, like me or many people are defending the rights, but not everybody can sense that the rights are shared by everybody. You know, it's benefit to everybody. Not only benefit to somebody in China, but also benefit somebody in Africa or, so people often say me as somebody who anti-communist. I'm not only anti-communist. You know, it's really, they don't understand me. I'm defending humanity, which can be a problem anywhere. So, talk about Pu Zichang. He's still at his home, still worried if he talks to me. And, you know, I try not to bother him too much. Can I get a selfie later? What? Can we get a selfie later? Is that allowed? You mean private selfie? No, no, no, no, no. You mean why I become, in some time, maybe I start my election, you can sue me for... You're giving away my plan, aye. Come on. Yes, we'll do selfie together. Thank you. Hi, this is a question for Ai Weiwei. One of the strongest way to fight anti-attablishment in the West is to use humor. And I think about France and America, but in France the conversation about art and politics has a lot to do with a certain kind of humor. So my question to you is, how are you inspired by humor? What is your kind of humor? And do you think humor is an efficient way, no matter where you are, to fight whatever your political side is? You use the word humor? Yes, humor, yeah. So what is humor? So what is humor, in a way? Yeah, my question is what is humor? Tell me, what is humor? Yeah, I'm just... To me, it seems that everybody has his own kind of humor. You're definitely within the realm of... Use humor or not humor, we are act funny anyway, so don't worry about it. Thank you, next. Hi, this is for Ai Weiwei. Nice to hear you in person. A little while ago, I watched a YouTube video of you, like being interviewed, and about art. And you said that the most... Art is not something someone can teach you. It's about your own motivation and experiences and interests. And you said the most important thing was to go out and see stuff. So I took that advice to heart. Last year I skipped a lot of art class. I went up to a lot of galleries and saw a lot of stuff. And it really did help me. But I guess my question to you is, I was wondering if you can give us just some key points like that you took out of your time here in New York and what kind of shaped your artistic development and what made you come to that conclusion of the fact that art is not something someone could teach you? It's for you. I guess this one, I'll ask me. I don't know how to answer this, actually. I spent 12 years in New York. If I think back, the most valuable thing, again, from my experiences as an outsider. I never, even I looked at all the galleries. The galleries, the works I liked or the work I don't like. I've probably seen most shows in the 1980s. But I still always think, always feel I'm an outsider. I think to be an outsider is very, very important. And probably that's what Duchamp said, young artists should go underground. Underground is a bit poetic, but as a misfit or outsider. I think it's, I make you very independent and also if you can make it, I will make you very quite independent. That is very, very important position for artists. Hi, thank you very much for talking to all of us. I was reading a book recently called The Daily Rituals, How Artists Work. It talks about various creative people and how they spend their time every day. Some of them have routines where they take a lot of various kind of vices. Some of them are like early risers. So I was wondering if you have any kind of daily routine that you take to think about art and come up with new creations and how that routine will be like. You ask for recipes? Potentially, or something that you do every day that helps you with your creative work. I think if you think too much about it, you'll never get it. And sometimes you have to forget about it and just enjoy the moment and enjoy whatever you like. And maybe you'll find somebody you can sleep together. But if you just think about it, I think I see many people never get it. Thank you. Hello. Thank you for coming. I wanted to ask your opinion on... Sorry, it's such a long line. Or do we have a time limit? Maybe we can take two or three questions and make like a resume and then you can answer two or three questions together. I don't want to make people disappointed because it seems quite a long line there. Okay, I'll make my question really short. What do you think about the social credit system in China? And it's the system that is purportedly used to rate a citizen's trustworthiness. I was wondering if you have any opinion on that. Can you say that again, please? I've been hearing a lot about a social credit system... And can you speak a little louder? I've been hearing a lot about a social credit system in China where kind of like a credit score, they rate a citizen's trustworthiness. And for both of you guys, what do you guys think about that? You want to... I can't hear what you say. But we can be silent for a while. We can answer the question being silent. Yeah, I think that's enough. Come and silent. Like together, yeah. Yeah, yeah, okay. Next. Thank you. Just a heads up, we have time for just one more question on each end. Oh, well, okay. So, okay. Hi, I was in Beijing in 2009 when Hu Jintao was still leading the country. And the 789 Art District was a big area in Beijing. There was a lot of growth in the art community there. How have things changed with the current leadership and what do you see for the future of art in China? And it's hard to predict the future, but to see the present situation. If we talk about art in China, which is really should be category because it's so restricted and limited. And whatever we see happens today in China, it doesn't really affect the real condition in China. It's mostly made for the market in the West. And yeah, that's the situation. You know, it's not only a few artists, they are. There are a few young artists. May involve their works in dealing with the situation or their real life there. But it can be very difficult because basically there's no real museums or criticism or magazines or newspapers which talk about a real aesthetic argument. It's just, I'm not like a fashion. It become like a design. So it's kind of sad, but it will remain that way for a long time. When a society doesn't have a freedom of speech, you don't, you should not expect that much happening. And yeah, that's what happened in China. Shiqie. Hi, so this is a question for Ai Weiwei. So a lot of the themes that you speak about, freedom to criticize the government, freedom of expression, of speech, et cetera, seem to be foundationally or at least kind of we like to think so, foundationally Western ideas. That I seem to be to some degree at odds with the current political structure and cultural structure in China. So my question is, what does your ideal China look like? And do you think that it's possible to achieve that goal given the kind of foundations that have been built in the country and where do you think we can start to kind of reach your ideal? I think for any place under any religion or any kind of circumstance, individual freedom which always defined by freedom of speech. Also, the society need independent judicial system which have a clear law to guide the mass behaving or individual behaving. And to have independent press, those are very important for the basic condition or for any society. Not necessarily to say even you do have that, you will be healthy, but can be clearly say if you don't have that, you're really sick. And that's my answer, but I don't know how to achieve that. It takes, sometimes it can take a long time. Thank you. We're gonna take one last question over here. This is not a question, I just wanna thank you for being here, you're an amazing person. This goes for Tanya. Thank you for being such an amazing woman, not only for Cuban, but for the American, the Latin American artists in general. Thank you so much. And the question that follows that is, is that, you said earlier in the conversation that when we were talking about the person who broke your peace, you said that an artist has to take responsibility for the things that they do. And so when Tanya asked you about the photograph that you reenacted, the boy who washed up on the shore in Turkey, you accused her of not being a political artist because she did not know an exact number of something that you researched. So how do you explain how that correlates with taking responsibility for your work? And also I'd like to thank Tanya for being up here and being an incredible political artist who maybe should have had also questions. I could you answer that question? Him? I would like him to answer the question of bearing responsibility, because I don't know that it's bearing responsibility to tell someone else that they're not an artist because they did not do the same research as you. Is that, I'm a little confused. Well, I'd like either of you to respond. All right. No, I think I'm going to respond on my work. Yes, please. I do, I'm an artist who, I agree with I that every artist is political. Some people decide to go, their politics is to ignore the political quality of their art and the capacity of being a political statement. But in my art, in terms of the responsibility, if that's your question, people who have worked with me know that I take more time thinking about what could happen if I do this than how I'm going to do it, aesthetically speaking. Because the aesthetic is the consequence. For me, political art is art with consequences. And being a political artist means that I have to understand where I position myself with those consequences and also make sure that I do not reproduce what I'm criticizing, because that's a very easy thing to say. And yes, I was a little, I'm a good student. So I was kind of like, I don't know the exact number, so I blocked. But I think for me, it's not to know the data. It's not about the data about the subject you are researching, but it's how to transform that emotion that you're feeling into something useful for the others. So that's what I do in my work. Well, thank you so much. I just want to say that I really had a great time in the conversation. And I want to invite our way to continue talking together in Cuba. Good, thank you. And here in Brooklyn. I just want to say that at the Brooklyn Museum, we don't think about a museum only as a temple for art. It is a temple for art. And we don't only see it as a refuge for a place to get away from society, we also see it as a place to lean into society. And we also see it as a forum, a place to come together and share differences and to see one another and to lean into difficult conversations. And I have to say, you two were magnificent sharing your similarities, sharing your differences, and being so honest and vulnerable and sharing that with all of us. So I want to thank you. I happen to be blessed to be able to have artists as friends and have dinner conversations and arguments, just like the kinds of things we saw on this stage today. But it is so rare that you see a public talk and artists have revealed themselves in the way that they did today. So I applaud you both for the courageous work you do and for the courageous conversation you had on the stage today. Thank you.