 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I am your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by George Flutus in Chicago Who is well known as a jazz drummer, but George is also a really really big fan and authority on John Bonham George Welcome to the podcast Hi Bart. Thanks very much. It's great to be here. Yeah, you you've come highly recommended from our mutual friend Dan Garza Who people know from the piste episode which I think was just awesome There was a two-parter and he has told me that and I've found out on my own from doing a little research on you You are definitely a a big Bonham fan, but also a great jazz drummer So I think you you're the perfect guest for this episode. Oh, thanks. Yeah, I appreciate it Dan doing that I I really enjoyed I didn't get to listen to the entire two parts Yeah, but um everything that I heard was was really great really interesting. Yeah, that was a that was a long episode Yeah, that was an awesome one, but well, that's a long history. You know, I see it's there's a lot there Yeah, which which Bonham is is is is right in there as a part of that So I'm sure we'll talk about piste a little bit in this episode, but um, yeah, so right off the bat I want to say so this one obviously Dan Garza got us connected But I've gotten a lot of recommendations over the years for this Most recently the ones I could find because I'm working on my mice as I mentioned in a pretty recent episode I'm working on my system of keeping track of all these suggestions, but I believe Rick Mackie Suggested a Bonham episode Terry Keating I've talked to before Bonzolium. He's gonna be on the show talking about something else. He's a like huge good buddy Yeah, everyone loves Terry and then Adam Stachelek. I hope I'm pronouncing your last name right Adam I think I've pronounced it wrong before but um, he actually sent an Instagram comment, which That's where I'm kind of like that's where I'm trying to keep all this stuff together of YouTube comments And Instagram comments with suggestions. So thanks to all those folks and anyone else who suggested this, but um I want to learn more a little bit later about what got you so into Bonham But I think people want to really just dive right into hearing about uh, you know, many people's favorite Drummer John Henry Bonham, um, obviously of Led Zeppelin. So Why don't we go back to the beginning of his life? Um, and just talk about you know, when he was born His boyhood all that stuff and we'll just go go from there Yeah, so John was born in redditch Worcestershire, England on May 31st 1948 Uh, he was one of three children. He had a brother named, uh, mick And a sister debbie who was also, um, she's a she's a musician vocalist And his brother mick became a photographer. He was a disjockey Um, the the little that I know is is about his childhood is basically from, you know, a couple Um books that were written. There's a thunder of drums by chris welch. And then there's also Uh, an excellent book that his brother mick wrote About his life and that one I would really highly recommend if you're not Familiar with it because it's more of an intimate family Portrait of John And there's a lot of really great stories particularly about his childhood actually in that book So, um You know, he was by all accounts He was Always into banging on things around the house from a very young age from the time he was a toddler basically So he always had this kind of innate, you know drive To make noise by hitting things and uh, his brother says a good amount of the time it was hitting him as well That sounds about right. Yeah. Yeah. So, um I think he was he got a snare drum when he was about 10 years old Uh after, you know setting up um Coffee tins and sure pots and pans and stuff like that his parents, you know, they finally Realized like I don't think this is just a passing phase. You know, maybe we should get him a proper drum Yeah, so he got a snare drum when he was about 10 and I think he got his first kit by the time He was like an early teen like 14 15 years old, which you know, I've I've I've read that and heard that and and like, um That's so interesting to have a snare. I guess I just didn't grow up with that I had I kind of started with a little junky, you know percussion plus drum set instead of a snare just a snare it's like That's a lot. That's a long time to be playing the snare drum. You know what I mean like Yeah, I don't really know exactly, you know, what that timeline was. I I know that that his father got him a used kit and uh bonzo Bonzo referred to it as mostly rust So it was like a beat up. I think it was a premiere kit And and I I think that that according to mick bonham's book I think it was a little earlier than 15 because he was already starting to play like little socials and Yeah, and you know parties at the local dance hall or whatever with with some other teenage Kids, but once he started playing with you know, a couple bands more regularly He ended up getting a tricks on kit. Oh, wow, that's cool And there are a couple pictures of him playing I believe it's that kit although in the in the book I I recall mick bonham saying that it's a sparkle kit of some kind either red or sparkle And in the photos, it doesn't look like it. It looks more like a pearl finish But he's so young looking in the photograph He's there's two pictures and one of the pictures Is like a posed shot with the other guys in the band. I think it was terry web and the spiders Which was uh one of like the local brum bands as they call them, you know, the birmingham area music scene of that time Brum beat is interesting. I've never heard of that Yeah, brum beat was a you know, it's like saying the mercy sound or something. It was just like a distinctive Style of rock and roll that was being played in the birmingham area. Yeah So bonzo was was in that environment. He was hearing that kind of music going on as a teenager and they were trying to emulate You know those sounds and also the look, you know with the hairdos and sure so so in the photographs, you know, you see this really young bonzo Uh No facial hair, you know, of course And and and one of the photos he's actually playing You know, he's he's like in the in the midst of playing and it's the only photo that I know of Of him playing actually playing the drums before You see a photo of him with zeppelin. Wow There are many photos of him with other bands like he played with a band called the crawling king snakes, which Robert plant was was a a member of and that's when they were getting to know each other as teenagers Um, let's see. Who else did he play with he played? Well early on he played with this trio the blue star trio And they were the ones who just like, you know played like these little Social kind of gigs and stuff, but you know, he was playing with all these different bands There was a band called the senators and they recorded a song for an album It was like a compilation of brum brum beat music And it's uh, I think the tune is called she's a mod. It's like she's a mod. She's a mod It was like so 60s mod sound, you know And and uh, I can't say you can tell it's bonzo, you know, because the beat is so Pretty typical and and it's the fidelity isn't that great But you know, he was probably 15 or 16 when that was made. Wow. So I always think about him as a young person going from banging on Coffee tins and all of that stuff and then getting a snare drum getting some basics, you know Maybe some basic rudiments together and then finally getting a drum set The by the time he gets a drum set if he's playing in bands like just little high school bands it's amazing to me That he pulled so much together and especially in terms of not just technique but having a Defined style and sound at the time he was 19. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I mean, I think we all We feel this way as bonham fans It's meant to be like truly. It's like Yeah, it's I mean, it's just it's like it's some sort of providence Like it's in him. I mean to to be like getting your drum set and then working and and you know, I fell I mean as a kid I would play with bands with friends But it would be like, you know, you'd be playing for me locally around like Cincinnati and different, you know The region but like I mean it just sounded like he was a working drummer Very early on and this is what he wanted to do Well, that's the impression I get from From his brother's account, you know that that he was so determined He was obviously very driven and passionate about it and he also believed I think he must have believed in himself and his ability because he seems to have had Somewhat of a very confident personality, you know, like you hear stories about him saying coming into a club or into a Show and listening a little bit and and on the intermission telling the band leader your drummer is not very good, you know You know, I I think I should sit in and wow, I think I think you'll like me better And and he and he would do that. Yeah, and it worked at least, you know on one or two occasions One of the problems was because he played with so much Authority and power I guess he was, you know, pretty loud even back then. Yeah on those smaller kits and stuff Uh, they were losing gigs, you know, so either he would get fired from a band or You know, the band would get fired and they're like, uh, they're getting frustrated because, you know They want this gig but but the club owner told them they were too loud I mean there's stories about that from people like dave peg a bass player who was in a band with bonham Early on he's he went on to be the bass player in fairport convention. He recollects um That you know bonham Would kick his bass drum so hard it would You know shake Everybody in the band and in the club up, you know, just he had great foot already. He had that power. Geez and um So and there weren't even, you know, they weren't even mic'ing the drums back then. No, which is incredible You know, he kind of developed this bit of a reputation But he was confident in his ability. So like you said, if it was it's almost as though He was following this course that had been sort of You know, um Preordained cosmically or something. I would agree now. I want to ask you though. So maybe that's a little dramatic But you know what I like it if you're if you're listening to this then you're probably a bonzo fan and you agree with that most likely Yeah, so um, all right But if we think about you know drummers Like your favorite drummers and my favorite drummers of rock drummers I mean bonham is always in the list of the most influential people and I hope that's still true today for young, you know 12 13 year old drummer who's listening to bonham and getting his mind blown and he's one of his favorites But yeah, hopefully this makes sense. John bonham didn't have that luxury to be influenced by john bonham So the question is who were his favorite drummers that made him into the drummer he was Well, his his influences I think are pretty manifold. I I think that You know, when bonzo was coming up when he was very young probably around the time he got that snare drum I'm sure he was aware of the music that his parents listened to at home. For example, which By his brother's accounts You know, they loved big band dance Swing music like glenn miller uh, benny goodman, um, you know, I don't know if count base. He was in that list, but I recall reading that uh His dad took them to see harry james orchestra And that would have been early on maybe even in the late 50s, you know, or when bonzo was like 10 12 years old Yeah, and he was floored by the drummer who was the great sunny pain And sunny pain, of course, you know, is most famously associated with bassies band and I've always heard And this is before I ever knew that that bonzo had an affinity for him I heard a relationship between them just on my own You know how it is like sometimes you listen to a drummer and you hear another drummer And you may not know through an interview or Anything they said that they were influenced. You just hear it, you know, you sense like oh that that reminds me of so and so Yeah And with bonzo, I've always felt when I hear sunny pain the way his bass drum is tuned the sound of his drums um The way he phrases especially the way he sets up fills the way he pulls back The way he leaves space. These are all things that are really definitive or characteristic of bonzo style The big bass drum sound that kind of sense of timing um So to me when I when I finally heard that and I also read in an interview with jimmy page where he mentioned sunny pain Um that that john bottom loved the count bassie band and loves sunny pain. Well, then it made sense You know because for sure, uh problem that probably With him when you're that age and you're Into the instrument, you know getting into the instrument your love of playing drums If you're if you're starting out as a drummer And I think especially at that time the prominent drummers were krupa muddy rich You know drummers Those were the celebrity drummers of the day. So for sure bonzo was influenced by by them I'm sure he heard gene krupa playing on sing sing sing Yeah, you know and heard that floor tom beat and and that attracted him as a matter of fact I know like one of his parents was a big benny goodman fan So his brother mick said that he loved gene krupa So if you're getting, you know, there's a lot of speculation about bonham, you know He's such a mythological figure that I think there's so many books that are written Um that have a lot of really great information in them But sometimes I feel like claims are made also in articles that I've read over the years You know that um He was influenced by this person or that person or whatever And it's all very likely but without actually getting it from the horse's mouth like i.e An interview with bonzo of which there aren't that many and there really aren't many Interviews with him where he talks about his influences. Yeah Um as a matter of fact, there's almost none And I always felt like that was such a shame that modern drummer Didn't get to do an interview With him before he passed in 1980. Yeah, because the magazine was still fairly young at that point. Yeah and um Yeah, you know, it would have been such a treasure to have an interview of that nature You know, it seems like a lot of times when people interview a great drummer I think now it's better than it used to be but it seems like Often they're interested in asking all kinds of other questions, you know And a lot of people focus on other aspects of bonzo in relation to his Life touring with zeppelin and so forth. Yeah less about him as a person and his influence Yeah, right. So I will say this in in the amount of time I've spent studying and listening and You know, sort of like immersed in bonoms drumming For sure. He was influenced by people like earl palmer Charles connor who played with little richard, you know, the famous intro back in which everyone Uh always sort of holds up as as like that's that's where rock and roll exactly. Yeah Long rock and roll. Yep. And and yes, I believe that it did and they may have been jamming on it in the studio that day You know, just to blow off a little steam um, because that's what the story is but Uh, you know, he doesn't play that intro note for note And that's one of those things that I've read often is what people say, you know, he copied The intro to keep a knock and note for note Or he lifted it to something like that, you know, which is even more pejorative when you say lifted He didn't lift it. He took he took something that he loved and he Adapted it and played it his own way which I don't know differences, but there are differences. Yeah, so, you know That's why I consider charles connor an influence even though bonzo never said charles connor was one of my favorites Yeah, I mean he had to be aware of him if you listen to keep a knocking But you can't come in or if you listen to toody fruity or if you listen to any of little richard's albums Or you listen to any of those You know, um albums like any cochran You know like come on everybody you see bonzo playing some of these songs Like on the royal albert hall footage and playing come on everybody and something else and he's playing the double-handed shuffle You know the kind of open shuffle. Yeah The train beat, you know, some people call it a train beat You know, that's coming directly from Black rhythm and blues drummers early calmer charles charles connor Yeah, I mean it sounds like he has a a ton of influences and and he's he's coming from that generation of Of jazz and he's really at an interesting time when music was completely changing and i'm sure the bayons that he was playing with Uh, you know as a young guy were really reflective of that kind of music But yeah, that's a very good point And it was changing because I feel like everything was where like, you know Although you may listen to gene krupa and buddy rich and all these guys playing with big bands. I think you know In the world playing big band gigs. No, it was going it was sort of i was going away, but it was not the like I don't know. It was not the like the music of the time exactly. So that kind of leads into Um, how things so getting back on his timeline a little bit about how things How he grew more let's yeah I would I would say, you know, clearly those celebrity drummers like I was uh referring to them buddy rich and krupa in particular Had an influence certainly I think max roach had an influence because you could hear the references to certain things that he would do That are pretty much directly max roach influenced Like how he would use, you know, and now amongst bottom maniacs the stuff has become more commonly known um Like for example, he would start off his moby dick drum solo live often by playing Quoting I call it quoting. Um, quoting max roach's drum also waltzes from his drums unlimited record So the drum also waltzes is simply the bass drum on beat one The hi-hat on two and three and then you play this figure While that keeps going as an ostinato. So you've got boom Right. Yeah, and on top of that the hands are doing this boom ta ta ta boom. Yeah boom ta ta ta boom That's max's solo. That's a thematic idea that he works up into this beautiful arrangement And then he he gets real busy with it and then he Kind of gets simpler with it and then the song ends So bonham had to have heard that recording Because he didn't just pull that out of the air to play that when he would do that on his solo starting in about 1969 or 70 and drum also waltzes was recorded A few years before that So that would have been a contemporary recording and this is what I mean about like yeah This is what I find fascinating and I wish I could kind of know more But part of it is the excitement through the mystery of of when you think about a figure like so iconic like bonzo It's like what was he doing? Did he go to a record store? Did he buy these records himself? Was he hanging out with someone who turned him on to these records? You know like did he hear drum also waltzes waltzes and go oh, you know, I want to cop that Yeah, I'm gonna remember that of course. Yeah, because he did it and he used it It's like it's a no all of us. It's what we do You hear somebody play a cool lick and then you take it you appropriate it for yourself And then put it through the funnel of your experience. Totally. There's nothing wrong with that Fantastic about him to me was he did all that at such a young age, but he sounded so much like himself Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely by the time zeppelin was one year old His drumming style was so distinctive. I mean even from the first album the very first Notes of the first album, you know the good times bad times beat totally. Yes. I mean, that's that's incredible No one played a beat like that to my to my knowledge So as far as his influences go, you know, like I said, I think that that max was definitely in there I think elvin jones must have been because elvin was another drummer who was also around england often Philly joe jones was living in england And there are things that that bonzo does that are very philly joe like in terms of the rudimental soloing stuff And a lot of people don't make this connection. Another thing is philly joe often did that triplet bass drum thing He just did it generally in the course of soloing not so much in a groove. Yeah You know, but it's it's it's simply The second and third triplet of a triplet figure played with the bass drum, which is very bottom I mean that is like which is that's like the signature, right? And then everyone says well, you know carmine a piece is the one who that's where bonzo got it and bonzo Said to carmine. He said I got it from you on whatever song it was and and carmine said I did that and he goes Yeah, you did that You know, so i'm paraphrasing but that's kind of the story because zeppelin were touring with the dental fudge Yeah, they were hanging out and bonzo told him I copped that I nicked that from you, but You know, he may have nicked it. He may have first heard it from carmine Or maybe he heard a philly joe jonesolo and philly joe went Dada, dada, dada, dada, dada with his foot, you know, yeah, and he's like, oh, I like that. It's just all about like That was the the Those those development years. Yeah, you know when he's all ears. He's a sponge and he's he was obviously very Naturally gifted. He didn't have so speaking about, you know, his early days. He really didn't have any formal private instruction Which is interesting and maybe that's a good thing because it made him the drummer his own he just created his own Style and technique that we're all, you know, pretty thankful for today because we can all everyone has learned from his plane That's right. And and and I think a lot of people have learned from his playing the same way They heard it and then they tried to emulate it. Oh, yeah And then they come up with their own thing that triplet thing every kid when you first learn that It's just it's like you can't stop playing it Right, right. There's there's something so satisfying. Yes about it. Yeah, it's one of those satisfying beats, you know, like there are stories about bonzo Getting together as a matter of fact one time I was in a drum shop here in chicago the drum pad It's an old shop that no longer exists and I was I went in the store and a guy that I knew another local drummer Uh Was in the shop with a couple guys from england who were in town and they were I think it was during the drum show time You know the big chicago drum show may Yes, and uh And I think these guys were in town for the show But they made a stop at the drum pad and they were just, you know, hanging out Checking out the drum pad with with my friend Rusty jones who was a great chicago jazz drummer and rusty introduced us and one of the guys names was Gary all cock is his name And he's from the birmingham area So he was one of these, you know midlands dance band, uh big band players Uh jazz musician and we got to talking, you know, he seemed like a very nice guy And he said, oh, I'd love to hear you play mate and all of this and you know, maybe we could come out to your gig I think I had a gig that weekend in town And uh, and then and they did actually eventually they came out to a gig I was doing But through the course of things when I found out he was from that area I said, did you know john bonham when he was young and he goes, oh, I knew john He said I knew john when he was a boy And he said, you know, john came over and I gave him a couple He said I didn't really want to call them lessons. You know, he's like we just hung out and We played through some things. I showed him, you know, some rudiments and And uh, he said we talked more than anything and he said the thing about bonzo was he was He said he was really eager to To to learn like, you know, he real passionate But he was already he could sense that he was restless Huh, that's he wasn't you know, so he said he ended up not really being his teacher because of that because He he said he liked to hit the drum hard Yeah the thunder you don't have to lay into it with all you got every time and um But he said they actually would set up The couple times they got together he said they set up drums and I remember him saying something about He had a small flat. So there was a drum set in the kitchen And he said they set up two two kits and they played You know and bonzo would have been like maybe 15 or so at that point 15 or 16 And he said He got the feeling that he really wasn't all that interested, you know and going further with it Like he got what he needed out of their meetings And you know, he didn't want to be a jazz drummer. He wasn't going to be a jazz musician per se Yeah, I think he already had it in his head that he wanted to be a rock and roll Player but he loved drums so much that how could you not Be attracted to swing drumming totally and and those drummers. Yeah And those drummers, right? Yeah, right. So that's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and that's what I mean is like I think his development was fairly rapid from the age of about 16 to 20 Yeah, you know, he he must have put in some serious woodshed time Because bonzo had very good hands. There's a lot of people. I think they think of him as just like a heavy hitter You know, yeah, and he played big triplets for sure and that's about it No way. Oh, no, you know, bonzo had great technique and it refined as the years went by very quickly Yeah, for so we can talk about that a little more, you know in terms of the timeline This episode is brought to you by burn symbols burn symbols are custom-made instruments handcrafted one at a time by symbol smith ray burn Each symbol has its own unique voice with a rich and complex spread that can help you stand out by creating your own distinctive sound Burn symbols are available at some of the best drum shops in the us and around the world As well as a select offering of pieces ready to ship on the burn symbols website for a limited time on burn symbols dot com Use code drum history for free shipping. That's b y r ne symbols dot com and code drum history for free shipping And as you probably guessed you've been hearing burn symbols on this ad played by anthony today I think we're we're getting close to the point. Obviously. That's a great I mean look at his his you know start and when he grew, you know His his development, but we're obviously getting closer to his his joining of one of the most famous bands in history, which Um, right how old was he when he when zeppelin actually joined up? I read a robert plant book about Uh, you know that his and it was it was so long ago. I can't really remember much of the details But what what was that early? You know joining up with those guys like Well, you know, he was associated with plant. They became friends and colleagues Playing with a couple different bands most notably A band of joy, but um, there was also a band called the crawling king snakes I don't know a lot about those bands, you know, they were sort of like incidental They were sort of stepping stones, you know, they were groups where they had fun playing mostly like blues or rhythm and blues Kind of covers, but they knew as you said earlier, they knew each other They knew each other and they're both the same age. Bonzo is a little older than plant bonzos So bonzo would have been at the time Zeppelin was formed he was 20 because zeppelin was formed in in august basically of 68 And earlier that year bonzo started working with tim rose was a vocalist You may be familiar with and tim rose was somewhat of a that was somewhat of a sweet gig for him because he was making Something like 40 pounds a week, which at that time was good money Bonzo had met, you know, his wife in who was from the area um pat and they Had had a son shortly, you know after I think jason's born in 1966 So he's my age. We're unborn in october of 66 So, you know, he he had he had a mouth a little mouth to fee. Yeah at a young age. Wow And he'd yeah, and he worked he worked off and on like I said, his father had a construction business I believe it was the grandfather's business. So it was like the john henry bonham construction company or something, you know, it was like any company Yeah, you know and and in and uh, I think bonzo thought, you know, well, I got to work. So he did work for the family's construction business off and on um, apparently the the job foreman Was a task master and and he was this big guy, you know, and mc bonham said, you know He he didn't take shit off of anyone and bonzo bonzo's heart wasn't in the construction business like it was in drumming So he he was somewhat Yeah, he was somewhat distracted Yeah, you know, he did that a little bit But he was also trying to gig and his dad had a van or a truck of some kind and he was able to have wheels You know, which was important in those days to get get your drums around. Yeah um So The bands the bands that he was knocking around with at that time They weren't really making a whole lot of money, but it was good experience and i'm sure it was good fun Uh, but what he got with tim rose So so the band of joy actually was a professional band as well Like he was in this band called the way of life and they did I think a couple little recordings And then the band of joy got some studio time And they ended up recording several tunes, which you can you know hear on youtube you can find these these songs They recorded a couple blues covers and they did a version of hey joe, which is actually pretty cool. Oh, yeah They did a cover of they did a cover of hey joe They did a cover for what it's worth and you know, things were looking a little optimistic more optimistic for that band But when he got this offer To play with tim rose That was more of like a professional regular gig. He was making good money so when jimmy page needed to Regroup basically because the the yard birds ended um He he found john paul jones john paul jones saw i think saw that jimmy was looking to put a band together to kind of Reformed the yard birds as the new yard birds and so jones Contacted him say i'd love to be a part of your new project and they knew each other from studio work in in england in london So now the question was we need a drummer and a vocalist so they found out about they found out about plant and plant told him about Bonzo So when they went to go hear Bonzo playing with tim rose And i think it was obvious to tim rose that they were spending a lot more time talking and they knew each other But they were spending a lot more time talking to bonzo than they were to him You know peter grant the manager You know and jimmy were kind of like they they're trying to you know Work and kind of pull him away And uh and bonzo was reluctant at first He was actually quite reluctant because there a story is there were many many Messages to bonzo coming from peter grant coming from robert plant. You know saying hey, what's up? You know, what are you gonna do? You're gonna decide on this and and yeah I think it was probably a tough decision given the fact that he had a wife and A new family a young family And uh, he was making decent money, but he and he also had an offer from joe cocker Oh, wow to play with joe cocker Um, but in the end, I think he realized that the music that jimmy was gonna play Or was looking to play was of more interest, you know in terms of just the taste the aesthetic Of sure sure man hindsight is 2020 because now you're looking you're like It's oh man. Come on, but but like that's a tough decision Can you imagine like you said mouths to feed and uh, I mean you're working and you don't know what's going to happen with this new Band, but man. Thank god for all of us that he he took that leap and um, yeah, it happened rather quickly because I think you know He was on he was playing with tim rose in early mid 68 um He turned 20 in in may, you know may 31st is his birthday. So He turns 20 years old sometime in july jimmy page comes to him Says hey, you know, we'd like to bring you into our thing And by august they had their first rehearsal, which was at uh, it was below ronnie scott's Jazz club below or above i can't wow, but it was a summer history room There were yeah, I mean there was like, uh, you know ronnie scott's in a different location now And I played at ronnie scott's, you know many times over the years um, but back then ronnie's was in a different location. It was like in china town in in london and uh Gerard street, I think it was and this rehearsal space They would rent out rehearsal spaces above the club. I think it was above the club and the band got together there and As jones put it, you know from the very first opening notes of train kept rolling Which was the first song they jammed on because they really didn't know what else to play Yeah, really it's like, what do you know, you know, it's one of those moments like, oh, what do you know? Yeah, yeah and and jones said he knew immediately that it was a match made in heaven You know, they just locked right in and the rest is history So that was when they you know really the spark ignited Absolutely and it burned pretty bright for 11 years, you know, yeah, which I mean my god, he's 20 years old That's just unbelievable. So yeah, him and him and plant. I mean the seniors in the band You know jimmy was the senior And he was born in 44. Okay, so he's four years old jimmy page was 24 years old I mean you are he was the experienced senior Unbelievable. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. All right. So he he then He's basically he's in zeppelin and and it It's a then it's just a rocket ship obviously I mean zeppelin is as we know huge, but how did he do personally then I mean like he's got he's married He's got a kid everything was I'm sure money was coming in then Yeah, I mean, you know, I can't I can't speak with a lot of authority about the personal life Sure, there's a lot of conjecture about it. There's been so many books. There was a book that just came out recently called beast Which you know, I don't really appreciate the title of that. Yeah Because to me that seems to like right from the outset focus on this, you know Other aspect which often gets focused on, you know, rather than really, you know, I don't know. I mean sure uh I would you know say as far as like Learning about the his you know, like some of his his his life history um, you know concurrent with being in zeppelin Um his the book written by his brother mick bonham is a really good resource for that um Thunder of drums is an excellent book written by chris welch But you know, there there really isn't a whole lot of um I guess I just don't feel that that comfortable talking You're speculating, you know about like like what he was going through personally. I know that He really and I think this is common knowledge. He really didn't like being on the road that much Okay, you know, I mean, I think he loved I think he loved being in the band and playing Music night after night. I think that that was for him You know, those were the golden moments being on stage and improvising because zeppelin were very improvisatory rock band Yeah, they weren't the kind of rock band that Plays the tunes the way they were recorded on the album And gives people the show that they kind of expect from hearing on the radio at the time, you know Playing all the hits, you know, and that's not to take away from any bands that did that but you know bands like I don't know the eagles or something, you know, we're like you go to the concert You're gonna hear the song played with maybe the same solos even or very similar with zeppelin. It was very Extemporaneous right from the beginning all the way pretty much to the end But especially in those formative years when they were playing You know, they were hungry and they were hell-bent on taking over You know the world. Yeah when they came to the united states. I mean, they blew people away, you know Um, people were just they they caused such a shock wave through the country Yeah, i'm on that first on that first tour and especially I think you know, the first tour was one thing I think where they really caused the shock wave was later in 69 because by then They shook off whatever, you know, maybe trepidation they had or insecurities, you know Obviously as a brand new band They recorded their first album in october of 68. They played some dates In the uk and in scandinavia. Well, they played scandinavia before they even recorded the album So those were their first gigs and they were bound to a contract On uh as the yard birds that jimmy page had a bunch of dates that were arranged already. That's interesting Yeah, so so to fulfill these yard birds dates They they went to build as the new yard birds But then when they got back from that short little tour of scandinavia They went into olympic studios to record with glenn johns, which is interesting to see, you know I don't know if you've been watching the let's the totally the get the get back beatle's documentary. Yeah So that's you know, that's like right after glenn johns recorded zeppelin one That's like december or january of of 69 It's just like johns magical time. It was just so amazing to think a magical time and just to think like johns had just finished zeppelin's first album and here he is recording let it be And just the whole vibe of that time, you know and these drummers Like you know iconic drummers, you know working with one after the other So they embarked on this tour they their first tour started at the end of december of 68 and went through Until almost march. I think sometime in february of 69 so that first tour they were an opening act basically for vanilla fudge Which we have to talk about maybe this is a good time His relationship with carmine apiece. They were friends and there's it's kind of famous that Carmine got him Into ludwig drums and they had a they had a pretty strong relationship Yes, yeah, I think carmine really admired him He saw him as this young kid who's got a lot of fire and has a lot of talent and You know bonzo was playing a ludwig kid. He was basically playing I don't know if it was a rental or if it was a kit that they bought for the tour But the kit was never seen before those american dates So, you know, it's it's very possible that it was something that they just acquired as a type of back line Or he bought it, you know, somebody bought it in new york or wherever just before the tour started So I that's one thing, you know that I get a little I'm I'm prone to go off on tangents about the minutia because I find it fascinating But a lot of people don't but I think in general a lot of drummers. It's like guitar players, you know Certain instrumentalists they really fixate on things about equipment and gear. Yeah You know, you know, I mean, have you found that part? Yeah, I mean he with bono especially and that's kind of leading into me thinking about his mic techniques and things like that in the studio where Yeah, bono, uh, in particular kind of has a and there's also a lot of like, uh, that's not how we did it He did it like this. Oh, that's not right and it's a lot of back and forth And I love sometimes just folding my arms and watching people just go at it because you know, I don't like to say You know, I'm not an expert on anything but I I have spent a lot of time With bono's music. Yeah, you know analyzing his his gear the the history, you know So it's somewhat of a like a a historians approach to it, you know, totally And there are so many instances where I'm just like, you know, we don't know that We don't know if he bought the drum set unless there's an invoice that shows that it was purchased by him Yeah, we don't know if he bought that first kit. We know that it ended up with robert plant And robert plant ended up selling it recently at auction. Oh boy. Wow a few years ago So that that that kit that was on the first tour was black diamond pearl ludwig um 20 I think it was a 22 13 and two 16s Yeah, um god that had to sell for he was playing it on the Well, yeah, and I mean, I think the guy who bought it is the guy What's the m-pop? Is that what it's called the museum of pop culture? Paul allen is is uh the museum of pop culture and that's where the drum kit ended up and I believe it's there right now Wow, I got in this way But yeah, so you know a few weeks into their tour Carmine was like, man, you need to get a bigger kit. I'll hook you up with a bigger kit So that's what he did. He contacted ludwig. He had him order up a A kit maple thermal gloss just like what Carmine had And um The kit interestingly, I don't know if you know this but recently a Discovery was made about the bass drum and terry and I have always suspected that the bass drum was not 14 Deep that it was deeper because in in in most of the photos it looks like It just looks deeper than a 14. Yeah So, you know, my friend terry who has his youtube channel bonzolium He's always been very passionate about his opinion on that, you know, that's the way that was a 14 Yeah, so it was great to get validation from a a mutual friend of ours a guy named bill herrington who Did a a great article on the thermal gloss kit. He actually traveled to england And the kid is in the possession of paul thompson the drummer from roxy music Which so you know, it's it's interesting to me too that like we it's such a different uh era where it's before So much documentation that it can be so Elusive and up in the air that things aren't documented like they are today where you look at a picture that's like an ultra high death picture That someone shot on their phone Um, right. So there can be this this sort of like. Oh, no, it was this I totally think that that adds to a little bit of the allure of like The mystique as we've said before like just this this sort of like Quest right knowledge and things are coming out. Uh always well, and then people I've I've seen stories of people You know, I've heard people say I saw him playing with two bass drums Um And it wasn't at a time where he would have had two bass drums, you know So there's there's like that sort of mythologizing He definitely played two bass drums later in 69 But on the first tour there's no proof that he had two bass drums. There's no photographs There's you know, if if carmine got him a set with two bass drums Just like his because carmine had to they also are 15 inch depth which was confirmed when Bill Harrington went to paul thompson's house and actually took pictures and measured everything And that's in a modern drummer article from a couple years ago. You can you can see that article and it's pretty cool Um paul thompson had cut down the the the 14 by 12 tom to a 14 by 10 And it was professionally done, you know by some drum maker or drum tech in england And and it's almost like you can't tell it was cut down but that famous, you know, big Mounted tom that he had yeah, uh the maple thermal gloss tom. It was cut down unfortunately God um But you know like the double bass drum thing, you know, the stories are that he was playing the double bass drums for a while And jimmy and peter grant no one could stand it and robber plant even said There's a a point at which robert said we used to hide his second bass drum Piss him up, you know, but he only played him. So he only played the double bass drums Um as far as we know through photo, you know evidence a handful of times In july and august of 69 So they were in their mid-summer tour and that's when I really think they were taking the country by storm I think that you know when they went out and they were doing more headline type gigs Not just opening for the fudge, you know, like they did in the early the first tour I think they turned a lot of heads. I know that when they played in new york at the filmore They were supposed to be opening part of the bill was iron butterfly And of course iron butterfly had their big hit with inagata divita and and you know, they're popular band and zeppelin were Not known the first album had just come out a month before. Yeah, so You know only hardcore rock and roll fans who are on the cutting edge would have known about zeppelin and been enthusiastic Most people were probably going like hey, we're here to see the fudge or we're here to see You know the who or yeah iron but like for these guys You know and then bam they hit him in the face when this is who we are got their mind blown Yeah, yeah, and they got their mind blown and that's what happened at the filmore that Iron butterfly were like almost booed out off Like they wanted there was like more zeppelin more zeppelin. That's a tough act to follow Yeah, but can you imagine that's that's a rare thing, you know So when they came back around the word spread like wildfire and they came back again um And then when they by the time they did that tour in the summer of 69 maybe bonzo felt a little more bold I don't know and he decided to set up two bass drums, but there's no bootleg recording That at least that's clear. There's one that I know of but it's really poor quality and you can't really tell He's playing two bass drums, you know Yeah, and the one thing I've seen online as it said that he did use it Uh a lot I think on even on the wikipedia talks about how it it was, you know The other members would call, you know, they'd say that it was being overused It's overkill. Yeah, totally. I mean, so all right with with the timeline here of bonum, you know, in particular Do you want to maybe talk about his his drums that he used? You know further going moving forward because uh gear wise. I mean, I think typically he's He's almost with Ludwig like like, uh, I mean he is ringo level of like Famous, you know, especially as time went on I think especially as time went on like early on ringo Had such a major influence like as soon as the Beatles hit the states It was like they couldn't produce enough Black diamond pearl drum kits or black oyster, you know, I mean They just couldn't produce enough To satisfy the demand whereas with bonum. I think it kind of like Evolved over the years and really grew especially After he passed, you know, even today. It's um Today, I mean today you could you could almost argue that it's more influential Now than ever. Yeah, the the amber vista lights, you know, um the green sparkle kit so Okay, so as far as the drum kits go one thing I wanted to Kind of bring up in tandem with that is the way his playing developed because You know on those early tours He he was playing you could hear so much like Vitality and like like it's like a like the the the birth of a volcano, you know, there's just this explosive Level of creativity that's going on, but it's a bit raw. Sure, you know, like Sometimes where you hear him go for things and you know Maybe it's it's a little on the on the edge or on the verge of you know coming apart and even jones said that sometimes He would try things but the thing is is that the creative fire is burning so bright And he's got this innate sense of sound You know not just bashing hitting hard, of course, you know, he could hit hard and he could kick the hell out of the bass drum Um Maybe harder than anybody at the time, you know, but that in itself is not an attribute. That's like, you know That's not a musical attribute. That's just like Fun for some people, you know to say, you know, no one hit as hard as bottom Well, I'm sure there were people who hit very hard, but they may not have been musical The thing about distinguishes bottom is that he could hit hard, but it was always musical It was always musically satisfying the greatest drummers That play loud are the reason they're great and they're still You know Recognized and and are iconic now is because they did that in a musical way Yeah, not just bash the hell out of the drums Not just bashing right bar breaking can play very loud, you know, buddy rich can play very loud Elvin jones could play very loud. These guys could hit hard philly joe jones Tony williams like all of my favorite drummers Had a huge dynamic range. They could play as soft as a whisper Or they could just come up to thunder, you know, thunderstorm levels And and bonham is the same to me bonham had a very wide range of dynamics. He had an extremely Finesse touch when he played soft Softly, yeah, and when he played loudly it was always full of groove and I don't know how else to put this but I like to call it It's like a fat warmth That's a good way to it's not an It's not an abrasive hard hurts your ears loud It might hurt your rib cage, but it doesn't hurt your ears. At least mine It's like it's almost like I can never I can never get enough of that feeling because it surrounds you It's a concept of sound. I think that bonham Really was borderline genius in this respect in terms of sound Like he knew how to play to get the sound out of his drums that perfectly suited the musical situation Yeah, and things were very Rounded and they would ring out and they would be very tonal maybe as opposed to Let's say ring go, which was very tea towel and dampened and You know, took it took it done. That was the antithesis. Yeah, bonzo was the antithesis of that Yeah, he hardly used any muffling other than his bass drum and you know a bit on the snare Yeah, um, but you know, um, so Uh So getting to this like developmental thing like from from the time he joins zeppelin to about 1970. Let's say his playing has Has a certain sound, you know certain sound and a certain feel and by 70 It's it's it's evolving. It's changing and it seems rapid to me like I think about like you know in terms of My own development, let's say, you know I don't consider myself anywhere anywhere near any kind of innovative You know level like these great drummers that we're talking about But I know that over time my playing has changed and and I'm sure you know, you're playing has changed and all drummers this process of evolution With bottom I look at it like man, did he change quickly? It was like his progression and his his level You know, he was a great drummer in in 1968 when he recorded good times bad times no question The way he plays the blues numbers on there shows this level of finesse and dynamics, you know, like on days in confused or on You shook me um The way he plays a fast rock a roll number like communication breakdown is perfect You know, like yeah the intensity the groove everything's there Then the way he plays the opening song and I was talking about this before like Who comes up with that beat for the debut the first song on your debut album? That's phenomenal to me. Yes Yeah, bass drum work the integration of the toms and the snare The writing on the cowbell the whole thing is just like man. This is a really cool Unique beat. It's to this day. I mean that is the most iconic I just remember playing that I had as a kid like I think it was like a you know, one of the best of CDs or something I would play over and over again of that beat I mean and that cowbell sound you don't hear that very often anything like that No, ever no, and if you hear a cowbell, it's generally going to be like tink tink tink tink tink It's not going to be tink tink tink tink tink tink. It's almost like he's playing a latin type groove on the cowbell Then the bass drum is going You know the triplets and the eighth notes that are quick and it's just like where did he come up with this I did an analysis video for my youtube channel of the first album And so starting with that very first song I talked quite a bit More about good times bad times than any other song on the album just because it's it's the song on the album that really is The most substantive in some ways, you know drumming wise sure. Yeah And in breaking that down, you know, I was I just found that The rhythm that he played it follows the lick follows the riff. I should say So closely that that that's one of the distinguishing factors of Bonham's drumming is that more than many other drummers Especially of that era he would come up with beats That shadowed or complimented In tandem with the melody or with the melodic riff So, you know that that that riff of course is Now he plays is very much related to that rhythm of the melody. He's not just going He's he's following along with the You know, so That That right there it might seem like obvious to a lot of people who are really in the bottom, but many people who Either aren't aware of it or aren't in the bottom might miss that that his drumming style Is a very organic um It developed I think very organically off of his musical ear I think bonzo had a really really musical Like instrumentalists kind of ear completely green I think of black dog too where it's like he just kind of reversed the main beat that we all know and just did that It's just those little things where it's like it's almost I don't say it's simple But it's like no one else's thing he makes it sound It's it's it's where he comes up with it just off the top of his head and it's just perfect and amazing but Especially at that time it's he's I mean, he's he's a Genius drummer. I think so. I think he's doing things that right and they're not necessarily Super complex like a drummer I don't know why this guy just popped into my head. But the drummer from coliseum john heisman He played in a way that was there. They're basically like a very jazz influenced rock band Sort of an early english fusion band, you know, or you think about like yes, for example Like bill bruford, you know with yes, those are styles of drumming that are Complex and in many ways more complex than what of course what bonzo was doing but there's a certain thing about bonzo's way of playing songs Basically composing a drum part that is so distinctive to him and it lends so much personality To the song and I think that's why zeppelin sounded so Compelling to people. It's one of the reasons that they were so compelling And You know in addition you have these titans, you know of like jimmy page and john paul jones. Yeah, they're they're master musicians producers You know, but then you've got bonzo who is not just the drummer. He's a quarter of led zeppelin He is definitely a quarter of led zeppelin You know and you can't say that about every drummer of every band No, that is such a good point. And I think you're you're absolutely right where you can't I mean Bonham would probably be be bonham would probably be great in any band he was in but I mean zeppelin is just a Perfect storm of these four guys and you're right. He's a quarter of it. It's alchemy. It's a perfect alchemy Did he contribute to the writing process at all or was he just purely like? Yeah, I mean, you know, I think of it this way. It's like did he put a pen to paper? Yeah, and write notes and probably not yeah, so, you know, but did if you consider writing coming up with a part That is a distinctive Yeah, you know feature of the song definitely to put it. Yeah, definitely. I'm sure as I mean gene like let's do this So a couple more times. Yeah, maybe we should exactly and I think he did do that I mean, there's some recordings of them in the studio Running over things like for physical graffiti and that you can hear a little bit of that For example Uh, I'm thinking now about in my time of dying Yeah, you know the drum beat that he plays once they kick off And they get into that next section versus, you know, I never did no wrong, you know There again, that's the riff the riff is And he plays a drum part That mimics that figure, but it's also grooving like a like like hell, you know, so it's not just this busy kind of Um, drum oriented beat It it has this It it it's it's just like this the the most the most brilliant and organic way of combining playing the drums within a beat And also grooving. Yeah, so the groove is never sacrificed But it's also an interesting groove. It's not just grooving real hard But without a whole lot of interaction and and no question. He come he contributed to the composition The even just that drum part it to me. That's part of the that's writing you're writing the song. I agree cashmere He supposedly came up with cashmere with the repetitive Riff that goes over the course of the six beats, you know, da da da da da da Now, I don't know if he Went to jimmy and said jimmy. I have an idea for this song. It goes da da da da da da da da You know, but maybe he did sure that we can't really know for sure unless jimmy page says it at some point in an interview Yeah, um, but he's credited with that, you know, so I think in that sense. Yeah, he he was a composer He contributed to the compositions and contributed definitely to the arrangements Yeah, no, that makes sense So there's a couple things I want to just make sure we cover before we, uh, you know I mean again, we could talk for five hours. We could talk endlessly about bottom, but um I can Unfortunately for everyone So the amber vista lights which we touched on before which are obviously he had other drums along the way But those are like the It's just what you think of like his signature We're almost now if you see a guy or a girl playing amber vista lights fortunately or unfortunately That's bottom. There's no like yeah, you know what? Yeah, they're forever They're inextricably linked with bottom and if you own an amber vista light kit Anyone who's a drummer is going to be like bottom bottom, you know, or who's not a drummer Actually, I think in some respects. It's more the laypeople You know Because it's such a you know, it's it's such an obvious it's a bright orange Acrylic drops. Yeah, you know, it's definitely an attention getter, but you know, I so What's the story? Well in between In between the vista lights and his maple thermal gloss kit. He had a series of Kits that were green sparkle And the green sparkle kits are just, you know classic Ludwig three-ply maple poplar maple shell Um the bottom sizes as as many people refer to them So the base drum was not a 2615 like the thermal gloss the base drum was the conventional 14 inch depth And he likely had a couple of these kits. Yeah, for sure. He had duplicates of the base drum. Yeah It's not really known how many kits he had exactly but I do believe he had at least two maybe three Um, one of the kits got trashed pretty badly in Milan, Italy in 1971 at a concert where there was a riot Police threw tear gas and all hell broke loose and the drums ended up getting thrown all over the place here was all over the place But you know, they may have been able to salvage them and repair any damage done I don't think they were crushed or anything but The common knowledge is that he preferred his green sparkle one shell kits For studio use. Yeah throughout his That he didn't really record with the the vista lights. I could see that. Um, it doesn't sound like he recorded any studio work with the vista lights I mean, they have a pretty they have a pretty distinctive sound Uh, that kind of rubbery, you know sound. Yeah. Yeah Um, and I don't hear that on any of the albums. He did use the steel kit. However for recording, um in through the outdoor And in some photos, there's a couple photos and most bottom fanatics know about these photos from polar studios When they were recording in through the outdoor You can see the steel kit set up But you can also see a green sparkle or what looks like a green sparkle kit set up in the corner And that kit is not complete like the snare drum is away from it and But it's like a bass drum and the toms are there and there's a couple mics by it But not really all mic'd up. Yeah and the bass drum head Is a clear rezzo the the resonant head is clear and there's a felt strip across the front So that's very different than what most people Think of for Bonham's, you know setup technique. He almost always had A smooth coated. I mean a smooth white head on the front, you know often with the three circle logo Um until he got the vista lights and then that was a clear head with the logo But you never saw any muffling on the front of the bass drum head. It was always a felt strip on the back So, you know, I I really don't know For sure what he used in the studio, especially when it comes to cymbals Because that's a whole other topic for for, you know, if you get deep into bonzo It's like the cymbals are like, oh what cymbals was he using? Yeah with the pasties, which again talking back to going back to Dan Garza on the Piste history because he was I mean He was a piste guy. I mean really but but I guess so what you're saying though is once you're actually in the studio, you probably use All bets are off unless there's photographs. That's my thing. It's like it's it's like we're in court now You know, you have to show the evidence The bonzo court which you and terry There are and that's why we I I personally I mean, I'm a lifelong zeppelin fan, but I I think I it's I need to tread softly because there's uh some very die-hard Bonzo fans and zeppelin fans Yeah, oh and it's okay And you know, it's okay to have your opinions and it's it makes it fun to throw Throw these things around but when whenever someone starts to get adamant like or say this is definitively or they try to make money off of it That's the other thing. It's like, you know, sometimes you see people Well You know, I can understand why jason is so protective Yeah Where's his father's legacy totally and the family? Because there's a lot of assertions that are made, you know by different people I'm not gonna start naming names, but you know, yeah There's some people out there who claim to have, you know Bonham's kit or have this or have that or know how he did something or what he used in the studio And um, you know, we don't really know without having the photos, you know One of the things about zeppelin is um, that's unfortunate for the history nerds like myself is um There weren't a lot of photos Likely because jimmy and peter grant really didn't want that kind of thing They they probably wanted to keep thing keep a tight lid On the studio sessions. Yeah, you know, so there are photos here and there like there's a handful of photos That I think eddie kramer actually took while he was recording houses of the holy From star groves, which is mic jaggers home. Yeah where they were set up recording that particular album And they didn't record all of that album there, but they recorded some of it there So there's a couple photos of bonzo and and there's a famous one of him and he's got this He's got the mean bear look on his face, you know, he's like don't even think about taking another photo Yeah, but you never know but he's got headphones on he might be listening to a playback and he's just an intense concentration Yeah, they just thought of it that morning. No, yeah, you know how photos are Yeah, but a lot of people, you know, I just say, you know, bonzo, you know the beast or whatever And I just look at that stuff as kind of that's silly, you know, like when you're in the studio, you're focused on your work Yeah, you know a moment captured like that doesn't it doesn't mean that you know, he he was angry Maybe he was maybe he was like god damn it Eddie. Don't take pictures right now. I'm trying to concentrate No, but I do want to say that I think you're doing a great job and have done a great job of Not focusing on I mean John bottom was a person who was very young who was thrown into the spotlight Who had everything you could ever want Probably at your fingertips being in one of the biggest bands in the world And uh, he did live a pretty fast life, but uh, I think you're very Respectful. Yeah, that's all this is a human being who has a family and we're not obviously going down that road Because there's plenty, you know, he's not the only one. There's so many musicians that Struggled with whatever it was Throughout their careers and especially when you know thrust into that kind of fame Um Yeah, you know, none of us none of us should be Making any kind of judgments without being put in that same situation Which no one else can be in that situation that no one else really can be what we do You know the little bit that we know and that's again through books and interviews or what quote experts have said Is that he did not like being on the road and as the years the tours went on they got bigger They got more frenetic More demanding. Yep Playing bigger venues less of that feeling of community with the audience You know, like like I remember seeing an interview with john and he was talking He's talking about you know, like connecting with the audience and people don't come to just you know, look at you He said something like that Like, you know what the beat was he felt like it was like a lot of it was like curiosity seeking Yeah, you know for them It was really important to connect with the audience if they could establish that electric what plant calls the cosmic energy You remember in song remains his name. This is cosmic energy. Everybody goes. Yay bash, you know But that's the thing that they're after that's that's what all musicians are after And and and the the crazy thing is as much as any great drummer Bonzo had that way of communicating with people. He's one of those people one of those drummers That transcends just playing the beat for the song Yeah, you know, his his contribution to zeppelin is so Important and it can't be you know, I guess I'm overstating it, but maybe it can't be overstated It it creates that feeling in you that you that makes you love the music so much Gene, of course, jimmy does too, but the drums in general this it's it's like a deep primal Instinctive thing when you feel that hit you and he he knew how to produce that so You know, I think it was important To have that reciprocity between the audience and the band and they thrive off of you know The energy from the audience, but as as the tours got bigger and they're playing these gigantic stadiums, you know, like the The silver dome or whatever or you know, the coliseum and you know, seattle and I mean Uh It's I think that it was just you know being away from from his his family and Maybe just naturally being a private kind of person Yeah, you know who just like to kind of hang out and chill at the pub and And just hang with friends and you know, you've always got to be around all these like producers and yeah, uh, I mean like industry people and you know, there's all kinds of unsavory hangers on and And then the groupie scene and all that stuff, you know, yeah He doesn't strike me as a schmoozer as much. You know what I mean is like I highly doubt that you know what I mean just because like he strikes me as a very down-to-earth direct person No nonsense. Yeah, there's so many like avenues to to go down and talk about this but one thing to say is is bottom I think forever will Forever has been and will be you know The the lists of drummers that like rolling stone or the rankings whatever you want He is always Known as one of the greatest drummers of all time. That's just he what's your thoughts on that? I'm the ranking of drummers and I mean he's he's always on those I don't like I don't like rankings. Um, first of all like a lot of times, you know I see people say the greatest ever this and that there's no such thing in any art. It's art. It's not sports It's not like some quantifiable like he has the most home runs or he scored the most touchdowns You know and even within that world that doesn't mean someone's the greatest ever no because there's all kinds of you know gradations of greatness and some people are may have the most touchdowns ever, but they don't you know Um, you know, there's some aspect of their game. That's more lacking than someone else Yeah, and I don't know if that makes sense what I just said No, it does. I think you get I think you get my point, you know, the thing is like when especially when it comes to art It's not quantifiable. That doesn't make sense to say someone's the best van goes the best painter No, I don't think he's the best. I think go gone was the best painter. That's silly You know, it's just still in his Hemingway is the best writer ever, you know No, bonzo's the greatest drummer ever. No, I'm not gonna say bonzo's the greatest drummer ever I'm not I'm not gonna say art play. He's a great. There is no greatest drummer ever But he is definitely in the pantheon of the greatest drummers And I think that at some point maybe not in the 70s Maybe not while he was alive and this is one of the things I kind of wish had happened It might have been something that gave him a boost of Confidence or I don't know man. I mean I'm speculating here, but it seems, you know at the very end Of his life He you know the day basically that he he the day before he died. He was in a rehearsal With the band preparing for their upcoming us tour for the fall tour of 1980 And supposedly on the way to the rehearsal He told robert plant that he should just hang it up That he's just and I'm paraphrasing but he was he was He was kind of lamenting to him that he didn't feel that he was as good as he used to be and that he He's just there's just so many other drummers that are better than me and you know So it's self-doubt right all artists go through self-doubt. Yes, we all do you know and no matter what level, you know I'm sure john coltrane had moments of self-doubt the greatest musicians Every artist is critical of their work and is hard on themselves at times, but that doesn't mean that You know, you can't have a moment you have that moment and it passes. It's like a storm cloud. Yeah, and I think if bonzo if if some of that A claim or those accolades like the the polls the awards the the lists You know the rolling stones greatest drummers of all time if he was in top five in 1979 You know, maybe that would have left him with a different feeling You know, wow, and I often wish that that he could have known or seen like Man, you know one day you are going to be In the top three drummers on everybody's list. Yeah In the 90s Because this really didn't start to happen till I think after the 80s You know like in the 80s, of course he was he was um Considered I guess one of the greatest rock drummers of all time But yeah to start transcending that into like greatest drummers of all time That seemed to happen going out of the 80s into the 90s 2000s, you know, all these different lists more more drum Publications to You know started to come up. Yeah, and then the and then with the advent of the internet Then there's all these internet lists and blogs and we're doing what we're doing now We're talking about john bonham exactly and there's more and more of this as the years go by And and again not to name names, but there are other drummers who are considered really great drummers But they don't their their popularity is not increasing over time like bonhams is yeah And I really think it's because he communicates something that's on a deeper spiritual level As a drummer like all the great drum like the truly great drummers do and that's why I'm so attracted to him I mean as a jazz musician. I think a lot of people wonder like Why are you so into it's almost like you're a jazz musician, but there's led zeppelin. It's like no, I love I love all kinds of music and I love all kinds of rock bands. I mean I listen to You know purple I listen to Sabbath. I listen to other stuff from my youth the classic ones I even like nirvana, you know, yeah, you know, but and then you know, but There's something special about zeppelin. There's something that has that Mystique and that that like extra something. Yeah, I really think it's bonzo That I really think it's his touch his musicality his concept of sound and feeling in the way he played And um and people are still chasing that lightning man It came and it went and everybody I myself included, you know, I'm humbled at the fact that people Consider me a bonham expert now and it's only through social media that this has kind of grown But you know, the fact is I'm not a big fan of social media even though I participate in it a lot Yeah, you know, I think it I think it does a lot of harm to society Ironically, yeah, but there's a lot of good in it too. And so, you know We see an increasing number of people who want to talk about bonham. They want to know more about him They want to know more about his influences. They want to know more about his gear So when you were talking about the amber vista light I I kind of um You know, I kind of missed that that answer what I meant to say was the reason he went to the amber vista light Was the venues are getting big and The the wood shell Ludwig, you know classic setup even though they're beautiful sounding drums He probably either heard or saw the vista lights and there's two things He probably dug the fact that they're Flashy and attractive looking. Yeah, they look cool in the lights and they're loud as hell Yeah, they cut and they project, you know, you can he can hit them at the same with the same velocity or force as the green kit But they're going to be louder You know, and they're going to mic up louder. So when they play Madison Square Garden or they play Chicago Stadium You know, it'll be that much easier to hear the articulation or the attack Yeah, and I think bonzo was again very conscious of sound I think he was very conscious of of What he wanted to project in terms of his sound and he was also, you know, a lot of a lot of people don't think about this with him he was sort of on the I don't know if it's cutting edge, but he was he was at the he was always kind of on the forefront of what was happening For you know, at least for a while there. Yeah, he was he almost was what was happening if that makes sense Like he was creating. Yeah, I mean Carmine's Carmine set him up with that kit and the big drums So then you start seeing other drummers playing big big big ass bass drum after 70 And then and then he goes to the to the vista lights and other drummers were using vista lights too But he was right in there. He was incorporating using timpani. Yes, and he was using a gong. Yeah Yeah, you know, it's a lot of things and then and then when steel shells came out. He was like, hmm I'm curious about these. I think I'm gonna get them. So then he gets steel shell, you know kit It's like I think had bonzo lived past 1980. He might have been exploring You know new new stuff that was that was coming around then maybe even I kind of doubt it would have been electronic But who knows you never know he would he was using an electronic enhancement On the drum solo. Yeah, exactly. You know, it won't be cool not that it's not cool with other drummers But he would have done it in his own way to make it like Uh, just this this bottom thing again because he's a great musician. Yes He would have utilized it in a musical way not in some fatty trendy way. Yeah Yeah, that's for sure. So I mean I Being born in 90 obviously I was you know well after His heyday and like the 70s up till 80 To me. Oh, you're born in 90 born in 90. So wow, I got married in Jumping on what you said before I just to me as a 31 year old guy it embodies his life embodies what you know Maybe it's movies and tv shows, but what that era Kind of looks like of this rock and roll star. I mean he is just like the epitome of A rock and roll super star and I do think unfortunately part of that Is dying very young which is terrible But that's sort of what you think of with this this 1970s rock and roll just live fast die young kind of Thing that's thrown out there, which again is terrible because it would just be amazing same with like Any rock star who was taken too early? It's it's sad, but it really it puts him in that that mythological You know just he's he's one of the yeah I think that factors into the into the mythologizing but you know one thing that I've I've found and that has frustrated me about um You know the bottom analysis I guess is that Recently I feel like a lot of people didn't really focus on the influences or on the musicality aspect that he had You know like for example Jones said that They loved listening to motown and tamla records. You know like the contemporary soul music of the time like marvin gay uh steve wonder and You can really hear that In the way his playing evolved quickly from like 69 to 71 and then from So they they had some major tours in those early days from 70 71 They toured a couple times in 71. They came to the u.s In the summer of 71 And they were promoting the fourth album and then they went to japan And that was a big deal because not many rock bands if any at all especially at their level of stardom Had toured japan. Yeah, so they were really the first they were before d purple um Which was I think 72 they toured in in in september of 71 They played the budakon hall. They played in osaka at the festival hall. They played big venues in in japan and To me that was kind of like a A peak in some ways for them even though they kept peeking zeppelin were kind of a band that would kind of dip down You know, they wouldn't tour for a little while like between 73 and 75 That's that's kind of a long time to not tour. Yeah, but you know, there are reasons for that They formed their own record label and then Um, you know, there there were there were different, you know reasons for why they didn't tour through 74 um, and then in 75 robert plant gets in this terrible auto accident in the summer and they were planning to come back again later in 75 so they ended up recording presence that year and then they didn't tour in 76 and then they come back in 77 but that was also I think related to a lot of You know the pressure to tour and bonzo really didn't like touring and so I I don't really You know claim to know what all the dynamics were between the band socially I just know that they were like riding some a bit of a roller coaster. Yeah, of course But in those early days, it was almost like a straight climb I mean they were just ascending ascending 1970 71 72 when they recorded When uh, how the west was one was recorded during their summer tour when they were promoting houses of the holy, you know That whole era bonzo is playing you can I can hear The evolution of his playing like he would have certain little Figures or phrases or things that he liked to do That would change and it was very rapid You know like you might hear him often playing a certain kind of thing on one tour and then in the next tour He's kind of added another bit of vocabulary to the lexicon of his playing Yeah, which we all do or we have our things that we do. Yeah, and then but it's natural, right? Especially when you're young you're kind of absorbing influences. Yeah, but But what I was going to say about that is a lot of those things That he was absorbing into his playing. I think we're coming from Uh funk music and soul music coming from bernard purdy drummers like ziggaboo modalist from the meters um And and again no no hard proof that he was interviewed and said, oh, I love the new meter's record I've been playing along with it But for sure he was you know, there's a scene in the song remains the same During mobi dick you see like jason playing at home when he's a little boy And and more recently like when jason does his led zeppelin evening shows he has some footage Uh a lot of it's unseen home footage, which is really beautiful. It's really great. Um But there's there's a clip and it was posted it was shared by jason not long ago on instagram And it's the actual clip with the actual audio From when he's playing along and and john is sitting there playing like a gem bay or a little hand drum I don't know if you remember this but it's a short scene in the movie and jason twirls his stick While he's playing well the song that he's playing along to Is a dr john song. Oh cool You know, I can't remember the name of that song, but it's like, you know, baby at the right time At the right place, you know, yeah, and that's the song he's playing along to Now I don't know who's on drums on that track if it is zigaboo or if it's earl palmer or who it is But it's most certainly a new orlan's drummer, right? Sure Yeah, from that era early 70s new orlan's funk That was on the little jukebox at home and and so cool And again, it's not it's not anything like it's not an epiphany or like, you know groundbreaking revelation to anyone who's really into bottom But sometimes that connection is not made that, you know bottom He's a he's a world famous celebrity rock star drummer But his heart is in funk and soul and r&b in addition to rock I'm not saying he wasn't in rock But you're allowed to like other things and yeah, you're allowed to like other things But I think the things that most informed his playing like jones said he wasn't really a rock drummer Like he really enjoyed soul and funk drumming, you know kind of more The guys who really impressed him were the guys playing on those records like stacks like al jackson Yeah, so you think about stacks and you listen to a recording of otis redding Let's say or carla thomas or some of the people who recorded for stacks You know You can hear I can hear a direct Link to bonham, man. It's like oh no question al jackson's pocket And the way his the way he phrases that's you know, I can hear bonham Same thing with roger hawkins who played on all those atlantic Aretha franklin sessions and wilson picket. There's an album actually called Morning m o u r n i n g like sadness morning in the morning By otis rush And otis rush, you know, of course a big influence Because of I can't quit you baby, right? Yeah, so On this recording if you listen to the way roger hawkins plays I mean it sounds so much like bonham or vice versa You know, it's it's like To me, it's clear like bonham sounds like roger hawkins You know and that's at an era that was recorded in like 68 69 Atlantic records, you know, these guys had access to atlantic catalog whatever they wanted. Yeah at that time They could just pick it right off the shelf. I'm sure God, it's just like it's like this these influences were then put into this Uh, this monster drummer this like just super talented the funnel drummer. Yeah, and then and then boom I call it the funnel. Yes. Yeah, and you get this this guy who Has has this super funky soulful approach to playing rock and roll Yeah, and blues. Yeah, heavy blues. Yeah, because zeppelin were a heavy blues band in some respects early on definitely Yeah, you know, but but but so much more. I mean, you know folk influences eastern influences There's all that stuff that page and jones brought into it and then you got bonzo and jones I mean, yeah page and jones, but then you got bonzo and john paul jones bringing this Motown stacks Uh atco, you know muscle shoals at rhythm section with roger hawkins, you know, they're bringing that into it Yeah, and they're injecting it with this flavor this like And the dr. John, you know, like new orleans funk. I mean all that stuff is in there Yeah, that's why zeppelin makes you want to shake your ass so much more than so many other rock bands And you you were right before the right place wrong time the song that is zigaboo on drums Which uh, uh, see there you go. Yeah, it's no no man No question in my mind that bonham heard the meters that he heard The wild chuppatulus and he heard dr. John and all that great new orleans funk Those guys were hanging out down there when they were on tour They would stay in new orleans often, you know, just to hang out when they were playing baton rouge or playing houston playing dallas Playing mobile alabama wherever they they they would hang in new orleans because new orleans was the fun The funnest place around in the south. Yeah, totally, you know, they love new orleans And you can even hear robert plants say it's our favorite city to hang out on one bootleg when they play in new orleans in 73 That's awesome. And and and they had a party at this place and you know a bunch of New orleans musicians were there. There's a great picture of john bonham Standing with professor longhair Oh, cool man. I mean they're they're they're obviously They loved what they did and being around these people and just like absorbing all of it And then like you said the funnel turn it around and then use it as an influence in your own music Which I think one key thing I'm getting from this is to listen to zeppelin which you know, I love to live I've always loved to listen to but you could almost listen to them a little bit differently After hearing what you're saying about these influences Exactly, which which is really cool. My goal is to get first of all just not just you know People but specifically drummers to listen to bonham and listen to zeppelin in a different way Yeah, and listen for those listen for those things and and you know It's it's important to connect the dots. I think in in a in american music. Yeah, I agree completely. Um All right. Well, there's so much stuff to talk about it's unbelievable But uh for the sake of time here because I'm going to leave a little bit at the end for you know We can tell people where they can find you and all this good stuff But so we got to say so john bonham died on september 24th 1980 Um, I think everyone kind of knows what happened, but it was an alcohol related death at a very young age. Um It was 32 years old just Very very sad left behind Obviously his family and jason bonham is carrying on the legacy now. Um and doing some great things Um in honor of his dad and it's just a monster drummer In his own right. I mean it's just incredible totally and has it has that sound Uh down I saw the show in uh In michigan At a four winds casino in michigan a few years ago and man It was it was very powerful very emotional Experienced, you know, just um, yeah, especially seeing the The slideshow presentation and the way jason presented the music, you know, it was it was really moving I mean, it's the closest thing There there is really too to john So George, uh, you yourself are a jazz drummer like we said But you you have an affinity for for the rock and roll side of things, but you are really known as a jazz drummer So why don't you tell people? I think you have some you're really, you know Have an awesome youtube channel and you're on social media. You're really doing a great job of uh Of marketing yourself, which I think is super important these days. So oh, thanks Wow, that's that's a big compliment because I think i'm terrible at self promotion and marketing. I mean, yeah, you know, I mean I've had a pretty long career playing playing this music that everyone calls jazz, which I do not like honestly the term Um, there's been a bit of a backlash lately against the term, you know jazz just because it's it's one of those titles that was Sort of put on the music a long time ago and for lack of I think many people feel for lack of a better description You know, it's jazz. They but you know, what is jazz? I mean jazz is so broad broad of a A label and I hate labels on music anyway, you know, but um, yeah, of course understandably, you know for terms of like people Yeah, um Knowing how to find me. Let's say, you know, I have a website. It's just simply my name comm and there's some background info on there But again, I'm not I'm not the greatest at self promotion. I always I've always enjoyed the The experience of playing with as many People, you know, as I can that I enjoy playing with the variety of being a freelance musician Um, I've played with some, you know, very well known jazz artists I was playing with ray brown the great bass players trio for about two years Toward the end of his his life And that was an incredible one of the most incredible experiences I've had You know working with a working with an artist of that caliber Um in their band, but I played with a lot of You know great jazz pianists like people like hank jones elvin jones brother. Yeah Uh, tommy flanagan the great pianist from originally from detroit barry harris Uh cedar walton. I used to work with cedar walton quite a bit Monty alexander is another great pianist that I had the honor to perform with And record with uh for several years joey d francesco Anyway, all that stuff you can find on my website, you know, there's a bio there and stuff but As far as playing rock and roll music, I really have not done much at all aside from I mean in recent years aside from a youtube Sort of a virtual project that I have with a few guys who are spread out across the globe And it's called people's front of zeppelin, which you may know about. It's awesome. Yeah, it's it's been fun It's especially during the pandemic, but we got started actually before virtual, you know Recording and playing was a craze. Yeah But it's mainly out of our love for zeppelin and just you know the fun that we have covering their their music Um, but it's it's you know grown a little bit Which is really nice to see and and we may even have an opportunity to do some performing Uh this this year In in europe, uh, the guitarist our guitarist. Ivan. He's from dubrovnik, croatia And uh, he may be arranging some things for us there The bass player pete is uh located in new york and The vocalist is uh thai there. He's he lives in los angeles. He does a lot of studio session work great musician multi-faceted musician and great singer Um, and you know my story. I'm I'm here in chicago. It's down in the single digits tonight. Oh, wow Geez, I'm nowhere here there. Where are you located? Cincinnati and it's it's like it's actually been kind of nice today. It's like 30s. I mean 40s. It's not too bad. Oh, that's balmy for chicago. Yeah, chicago is a different level of uh Of cold we get there. Uh, well, I'm sure we'll get down to the you know five 10 degree weather here in the next month or so, but um, yeah, well, george, um This has been amazing. So for everyone looking george F l u d a s is his last name obviously So I'll put a link for everything and I'll have george send me any extra links that I'll put in the description and everyone can find it and um Bodom is a very big Topic and he's a big drummer and he lived a big life So I hope we covered everything that people are interested in and uh, if there's anything else Yeah, then you can go to um george's youtube channel. There's bonomology, which I'll link in the description and um And then obviously our buddy terry keating whose bonzolium has some other great stuff as well and um Terry and I may and if I might add terry is the whole reason I got into doing the uh youtube channel There you go. I would not have done any of this if it hadn't been for him kind of goading me on Yeah, so yeah, and he was right. I mean he was right, you know, bonom looms large for a lot of people Yeah Yeah, his style and way of doing stuff is just it's like it's very entertaining and it's just like he's He's got a way about him. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He's just naturally Uh, very funny and engaging person. Yeah, so yeah Great george. I want to thank you for taking this much time to uh share your passion with me and uh, you know Hopefully i'll be at the chicago show next year um in 2022. I guess that's this year because it's for five days into uh january, so Right. Yeah, it's going fast. Thank you so much for being here and thanks for everyone for listening And I hope everyone is having a great new year and um enjoyed this episode. So george. Thank you for being here Thanks so much for the feelings mutual and um, I really appreciate you Asking me to do the podcast has been fun If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning