 He has occupied some of the most important functions in the Turkish government. He was vice prime minister, minister of finance, minister of foreign affairs. And what else, Ali? That's all? And European Union affairs. And European Union affairs. So he has an extraordinary experience and I can tell you I think I have had one of those who had the privilege of having known him for something like 10 years or perhaps even more now. He's highly respected worldwide and in particular in the United States and in the European Union. So it's a great privilege Ali to have you here and it was also, I must repeat, a great privilege to have former prime minister and minister of foreign affairs, Ahmed Abuturu, again sorry for my pronunciation. And I hope that we can go a little bit deeper this afternoon to understand what is going on in Turkey now and the future of the relations between Turkey and particularly the West, the United States and Europe. So Ali if you allow me I think we could start with a very simple question, probably not a simple answer but a simple question. Can you enlighten us a little bit more about what is going on in Turkey? How should we understand what happened with the failed coup last July? What are exactly the stakes of the gulen sect that very few people know and understand in the West? What about the request of President Erdogan of extradition of Mr. Fetula Gulen? I think perhaps we could start with some clarification on this fundamental domestic issue and then we will widen the discussion to some foreign policy issues. So the first question is put and we are listening to you very carefully indeed. Well Tiryu thank you very much first of all for your invitation and also I have to express my sincere appreciation for the state of Qatar and foreign minister of Qatar for organizing this event together with IFRI which is a very important institute for global affairs for international relations which has been in the international community as a big success story I have to say and congratulations on doing the world police forum in a very consistent and successful actually I was able to attend the Monaco event which was three or four years ago I remember and congratulations on doing this this time here in Doha, Qatar. Well what Turkey has gone through this summer in July was quite traumatic unexpected quite abrupt we were faced with a coup attempt it was not the full military attempting this but it was a faction within our military tied to Fetula Gulen those Gulenists I would say who were within our army attempted this but it was unsuccessful it failed I think it was very important for our president Erdogan to make a call for the people to occupy the streets to occupy the squares of the country and people responded very fast and the strong stance of Turkish people in a way prevented the coup which could get really worse but when we analyze this why this happened or who are Gulenists or who is Fetula Gulen this actually dates back to more than 40 years ago a religious gathering I would say which we thought on the visible side was doing good things like schools and charity social work solidarity social work and so forth not only in Turkey but around the world we actually cooperated with them for some time and help them do more of the things which we thought were good things and they infiltrated step by step to state organizations so the followers of Fetula Gulen got more and more into our government units our judicial system our police force army and after reaching a certain threshold of occupancy or effect I would say then they started to exercise this power for the organization itself in a way just capturing the control of the state became more and more of an important agenda for them and we were kind of careful about what they were doing especially over the last few years but we didn't really think that they could go that far to attempt a coup we lost 241 people mostly civilians that night more than 2000 people wanted they hit the parliament building by F-16 aircrafts they use course helicopters tanks to bomb the presidential palace our intelligence headquarters our police force headquarters and think about any capital in the world whether it is London or Washington on Paris in one night the some elements of your own army using the most modern weapons hitting the most critical state units so that was quite a trauma for us and after the 15th of July we started a very important process it's a massive operation of the police force and the our judicial system nowadays trying trying to pick the people who are involved with this organization and now we call them FETO a terrorist organization since they even used weapons to destabilize the country so so we are now going through a big big effort to make sure that the followers of Gülen or members of this terrorist organization are no longer in critical positions in the government system but the thing is they can hide themselves very well it's a very secretive organization and the problem with this organization like some other terrorist organizations in the islamic world is that in the mainstream islam mainstream islamic thinking our target has to be legitimate religious legitimate and every step that we take towards that target has to be also legitimate religiously legitimate but FETO and some other terrorist organizations in the islamic world unfortunately if they have a legitimate target they can do every kind of nasty things all kinds of religiously illegal things to reach that target I said I think there's a big sickness that the Muslim world has to deal with and then islamic thinkers has to work on very very carefully another important element with this organization is that they think that their leader is like messiah or the awaited one so when they get by an order the followers turn into robots or zombies so they don't even think actually in islam thinking and our minds using our brains is a big gift which differentiates us from all the other being creatures so so in in this kind of organizations the followers are asked to stop thinking close their minds lock their minds and do every kind of crazy thing so this is also a sickness that's also a big flow that we have to deal with and this is not just for FETO I think for for Daesh for Al Qaeda or other organizations that this is something which needs a serious dealing with so what we are going through is not easy because on one hand Turkey signed up to all the important values and ideals like democracy human rights freedoms rule of law and since 2002 from the very beginning of a party we were very careful to improve ourselves on these areas together with improving our domestic security situation and being more careful about of course our external security situation also so we didn't want to really make a tradeoff between security and freedoms and so forth so far but this is such a unique event that like France did after the Paris bombings we had to declare an emergency rule in the country and under the emergency rule the mood is of course security first and when this there is a security first approach then there are some some probably criticism coming from and there but the number one priority right now in Turkey is to restrain the stability making sure that our domestic security situation gets back to normal because not only our domestic security situation is important but on our Syrian border we have two important terror organizations right across the border Daesh and YPG PYD or PKK as we call them in Turkey which is which are right on our border and and Syria is a huge regional threat for for many countries not only for Turkey so on one hand we are dealing with this domestic issue and on the other hand we are also dealing with Syria and also how things will evolve in Iraq as well as in Yemen and Libya and so so it's not easy times in this part of the world but this part of the world is also the the region of Europe and we hope that our European colleagues and friends have more input and support in the solution of some of these issues which I this why also I think having this WPC here in Doha has a very special meaning thank you very much to make the transition with foreign policy issues the fact is that in terms of perception Turkey is President Erdogan are perceived very often as as having overreacted with tens of thousands of people displaced arrested etc etc and the result is that there is a sense of crisis in the relationship with Europe with the European Union we will see that in the next few days maybe there are talks about restoring the death penalty in which case that would be incompatible with the belonging of Turkey to the Council of Europe which is of which Turkey was a founding father that very few people maybe know that so it's a relatively difficult situation and of course with the US there is the question of what President Trump President-elect Trump will do will he abide by the request of extraditing Gulen it I'm not even sure that he has the power to do it himself by the way that there is a legal problem here but be that that may be as it may there is there could be some serious I see there could be because some serious diplomatic problems both with the EU and and with the US and at the same time the relationship between Turkey and the West is becoming more and more important in the case of Europe we have the refugee issue we have the medallist situation so how do you see the interaction between these domestic problems in Turkey and this quite complicated international situation particularly in with the West well unfortunately the world is going through a deglobalization process nowadays so many countries looking more and more just inward being disintegrated from each other the world trade the global trade used to increase double the size of the global growth but now the world trade is increasing at par or even less than the growth of the global economy so in a way countries or regions are becoming more and compartmentalized and populism is on the rise nationalism as our prime minister that would already mentioned in the opening session so so this populism nationalism and in every country blaming outsiders for whatever is going wrong in the country is a big big problem so the big turmoil that the Middle East is going through unfortunately coincides with such a deglobalization process that the world is going through even when we look at the at the European Union the 2008-2009 crisis the eurozone crisis made so many countries inevitably too much occupied with their domestic issues that the enough attention in Middle East and North Africa probably was not paid and when the Arab Spring started as Turkey we felt quite lonely in a way defending and and expressing the very European values to our Middle East and North North African neighbors but transformation in in this part of the world is not not easy like in Eastern Europe when the transformation happened after the Soviet Union many countries became part of EU become became part of NATO but the huge political and economic support has been given to those countries and they were promised a better welfare they were promised better circumstances for their citizens Poland today gets grants of about three to four percent of GDP from the EU and Poland is quite an advanced economy nowadays but they still get a grant from the EU to continue with the transformation so for Middle East and North Africa that was not unfortunately given another problem I think is the deficit of leadership in the world that is that has played a key role in the deterioration of the process and and the nationalism and populism is also a result of lack of leadership in quite a few countries in Turkey luckily we don't have that problem so we have a very strong leadership and this strong leadership has been quite influential in transforming the countries since since 2002 but also I think it's important to understand the the domestic and regional circumstances of of Turkey and why you mentioned like civil servants being laid off from government units and so forth but in these difficult times sometimes it becomes necessary like what happened in eastern Germany when the eastern and western Germany was were being reunified hundreds of thousands of civil servants were laid off in order to clear the Nazi mentality from the state system so in terms of our domestic security situation right now FETÖ and PKK two biggest threats and sometimes to make sure that those threats really go away you have to do these kind of things as I said our mood right now is security first mood but but this will this will change and and we hope that the European Union also goes back to the founding values and I think the world does need a European strong European Union in my view especially after the second world war the European Union emerged as a very important peace project countries fighting with each other million after millions of millions and millions of people died they were able to find some common areas of interest some common interest which they can be known it started it call and steal very simple subjects maybe then it turned into an economic entity common market and then European economic community then European community the final European Union so common economic interests were at the very fundamentals of European Union emerging as a very important success story and now I am afraid we are losing it because the feeling of when we are together we benefit all this feeling is now evaporating in many European Union member states like what happened in the Brexit vote the 52% of the British people thought that being together with the EU does no longer help UK actually being a member of the EU is a cost not a benefit so why don't we get out so if this feeling of not any longer having the common benefits of being together is is is not good so so this is a very dangerous trend that we are observing as Turkey it's a very big pity for us because we had a strong EU anchor external anchor which helped us a lot to transform ourselves in in in rule of law in human rights freedoms in how our democracy functions and now that important external anchor or a big target is also evaporating in front of our eyes as a very important magnet and that the soft power of the EU the leverage of the EU on the neighborhood is also evaporating with together with the deteriorating solidarity within the EU so it is not easy times in our in our in our region and also within Turkey but I think this is not also a missed opportunity we still have to be hopeful we have to work a lot there are I think still a lot of a lot of people in this region and around the world who are good global thinkers and what kind of a better region and better world that we can we can achieve and and we have to move forward well thank you Ali so what I will do now is we have about 10 minutes I would like to take this opportunity of having Ali Babajan with us we're here to take a few questions and I will ask you to be extremely short it's not it's questions it's not a long comment so who would like to ask a question to Mr Babajan Mr Herjankovic from Austria by the way when we had the WPC in Austria in 2014 President Gul was the guest of honor of the world policy conference so we have a long when I say we I mean WPC has a long story of friendship with Turkey and we want to keep it alive Mr Babajan amongst the many problems facing the world not only Turkey minority problems and there are many countries that have rather bigger smaller minorities and in Turkey of course we have the Kurdish problem and you should be sure that nobody in Europe has the slightest sympathy for terrorist methods as they are applied by the pkk and similar groups on the other hand there will be a need to come to some kind of compromise to some kind of arrangement but there is a large group which is not only present in Turkey also in in Iraq and in Iran so your strategy in that regard would be of great interest to us thank you well actually we don't really have a Kurdish problem in Turkey it's a pkk terrorist problem that we are going through in Turkey why because first of all the ruling party AK party my party is the party which gets the highest amount of support from the Kurdish citizens of Turkey so we are we are the number one party as the ruling party which gets the highest amount support to the Kurdish population of Turkey plus when we look just across the border in Iraq Turkey and the KRG has now very good relations and probably right now Erbil Ankara relations are better than Baghdad Ankara relations nowadays so I wouldn't call it a Kurdish problem it's a terrorism problem and we cannot label the terrorism problem by any ethnicity by any religion or religious sect and pkk is a terrorist organization which is officially recognized by EU by US and by other individual countries and and and other international organizations so and how to deal with it yes we do need a comprehensive approach when we deal with terrorists but the thing was when we actually had the the dialogue process to solve this terror issue then pkk's syrian arm pyd ypg they became an operational partner to the united states in fight against ash so this gave pkk another wave of encouragement or a new source of legitimacy to resort back to terror in Turkey so that's that's very problematic so when we talk about terror or terrorist organizations we have to have a categorical approach and we should not use one terrorist organization and against another terrorist organization we should not cooperate with terrorist organizations the dialogue maybe comprehensive approach yes but don't cooperate with them don't take them as partners in any kind of business that you are you are doing with so so this is what we went through and pkk increased its terrorist acts within Turkey especially last more than last one year now it costs us hundreds and hundreds of civilian lives as well as official official slides so it is a regional issue now and and it does need an international approach so no country alone nowadays can deal with any terror organization alone because terror organizations are now cross-border it is intranational it is international so we need to see that this also needs an international cooperation so no country should feel lonely when it is time to fight against terror organizations and we are kind of feeling lonely in our fight against pkk nowadays they are their operation partner with the u.s. and they have their activities in many many countries in the european union they are approached with sympathy empathy defense on the on the on the country and and i think solidarity is very important here and we need to have a stronger cooperation collaboration when we talk about terror nowadays and unless we do this it is very easy and one one organization that you cooperate today could be an enemy for you following months or years so i think also we have done a lot in terms of making Turkey a country where differences can live together in peace and our history actually when we look at this region overall and then we look at Turkey many many cities are multicultural cities multi-ethnical cities multi-religious cities and it's very important to preserve this aspect of diversity city by city country by country and having values and ideals which are about ethnicity which are about any any religious sect or something or something like that is something that we need to go through so we're going to have i think tomorrow if i'm not if i'm not mistaken a session on terrorism but one of the big problems of course is that there is no universally agreed definition of terrorism even the un system they have never agreed on a definition of terrorism and we know a number of former of people once considered to be terrorists who receive the noble price for peace so it's a it's a quite a complex situation and but i will give the floor to Mr Lai should be for short but short intervention and unfortunately and then we will have to perhaps time for one more question thank you continue in the african institutions and regularly the jerry has a presence The Algerian is a very strong presence in African institutions, and has often chosen the choice of the resolution of conflicts and crises by the political approach, whether in Somalia, or in Eritrea, or in Libya, and elsewhere. I would like to have your opinion on this title, how do you see the Libyan dossier, what is your approach, and also what is your approach to North Africa in a general and African way, and I thank you. I think that the role of non-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-religious societies is very much valid for North Africa as well. You mentioned Libya, well, we have relatively more successful examples, but also worse examples. Starting from Egypt, unfortunately, there was a military coup, and an elected president is now in jail, and there is a different kind of an administration right now in Egypt. And when we look at Tunisia, maybe it's a more successful example, having good transformations still with issues, but still a better example. But in case of Libya, it's very unfortunate because of the very divided nature of the society, and also very divided nature of politics, different powers acting with each other. But I think the international community, the UN, has played a very constructive role for Libya, and the political agreement, the Libya political agreement, which all the many countries, the international community has agreed on, has to function more and more, and we have to side with the legitimate, and I say legitimate, whatever the international community has agreed on, the structures, the new councils, the new administrative structure needs to be supported more and more by the international community, and also Daesh, unfortunately in Libya, is still a player over there. Hopefully we will see a phasing out of Daesh, but when we look at the root causes of many of these terror organizations like Daesh, we also see alienation, we see exclusion, we see oppression. So no group, no sect, no ethnicity should have any kind of dominance over the others. We should target for governance in countries which truly reflects the composition of the society, so that the will and aspirations of the people will be reflected in how the countries will be governed, and external support is very, very important, because sometimes just the domestic dynamics of a country will not allow a successful solution. I think this is a big, big duty I think for European Union and countries like US and others to consult more and also have more of a unified approach. And if every country looks from its national perspective and national interest perspective to Libya or other countries in North Africa, I don't think there will be a healthy solution any time soon. So I think it's a very, very big duty for the European Union and the US, the stripping off from the national interests for a while, and coming together and what is the best for Libya and other countries and what is the best for people of Libya. Because at the end of the day, if there is lack of stability, if there are security issues, this will hit the neighborhood. So sometimes it is in the form of refugees, like we are observing Syria or other North African countries, many, many refugees are trying to reach Europe and causing huge social and economic issues, or terrorism. I mean, the most immediate spillover effect of difficulties on those countries are refugees and terrorism, and no country is immune. So it does need a lot of communication, cooperation, collaboration when it comes to have solutions. And solutions at the end of the day need to be political solutions. The military solutions alone, if it is just a military perspective, is not long-lasting. It's not a sustainable solution most of the time. And for Libya and for other countries, having good political targets and international coming together very closely with supranational values and ideals, rather than narrow national interests, I think that is going to be important. Thank you. Unfortunately, time is running out, so I will take one last question that will be Dorothej Schmidt. And then we have to stop, unfortunately. My name is Dorothej Schmidt, following Turkey at IFRI. My question would be, how do you assess the cost of the coup, the economic cost of the coup? How does it affect the stability of the Turkish state, especially vis-à-vis some areas such as the judiciary I'm particularly interested in? And do you think there's a chance that death penalty would be voted back into the Turkish law, and for what purpose? Well, unfortunately, the Gulenists, the followers of Gulen infiltrated many state units, but especially the judiciary in terms of judges and prosecutors, were one of their most important targets. And we are estimating that about 30 to 40 percent of the judges and prosecutors were under the direct influence of the organization. And now we are trying to solve the problem through, again, our own judicial system. So, yes, many judges and prosecutors were laid off because of the fact that when it is time to decide, we are not sure if they are going to decide by the constitution, by the law, and by their conscience, or are they going to decide by the orders that they get from Pennsylvania? We cannot be sure. So, in order to make sure that the judges and prosecutors really do the job that they are supposed to do, we have to be sure that they are able to act independently and they are able to act without any influence from here and there. And they should also feel empowered to do the right things. So, thinking about the judicial system, which is 30 to 40 percent under the influence, and stripping off these people from the system and dealing with the problem with the rest of the judges and prosecutors, it's not an easy process. So, we have been hiring many new judges and prosecutors, young lawyers, which are now being trade and put into the system, but it's going to take time and this is not going to be flawless. But it's a big effort, a massive, massive effort right now going on to go back to normal with our judicial system, to go back to normal with our security units. The death penalty, yes, it is now in the agenda of the country, but no proposal has come yet to the parliament and we don't know about what kind of a proposal it will be, if it will be or not. We don't know about the timing. Those are all unknown, but it is now in the public domain and it is now in the agenda. But nothing concrete about how it will progress from now on. We will see it, but it will be a democratic procedure that we will follow. We know how important of a subject it is, not only for our European Union friends. It is also important, very important for our own country and also our own citizens. But you have to remember that we went through a big trauma, a coup attempt, and this was just four months ago, not decades ago, and it's very fresh and the influence of this on our public is still huge. And we have to see how things will evolve. Well, unfortunately, we have to stop here. I want to thank you. I want to thank you again also, Mr. Davutoglu, for his intervention this morning. Turkey is a very important country for the international system overall, particularly, of course, in the European continent, in the Middle East. And I very much hope that next year, the next WPC, we will have also, we could spend more time perhaps to talk with our Turkish friends. And I hope that the global situation will have improved by then. So thank you very much again. Please, don't leave the room. Well, you're going to applaud him in a second. But don't leave the room because each time we are losing 10 minutes and put the schedule under jeopardy. And also, I would like to remind you that there is a studio WPC TV, room number six outside. And our journalists would like to interview many of you, so they will probably get in touch with you. So thank you very much, Ali. And now we applaud you. And I ask for the next panelist to come immediately on stage.