 Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another coordinating call, DM25, The Movement for Europe, featuring progressive ideas you won't hear anywhere else. I'm Maren Kilili. You would have had to have been living a very isolated life recently to have not heard about Squid Game. It's a Korean drama series that's become a global phenomenon. It came out five weeks ago or so, and it's already Netflix's biggest show of all time. 142 million viewers across 90 countries. It's dominated conversation in social media, so clearly it struck a nerve. And what's it about? The dark side of capitalism. The series is an allegory for the modern capitalist society. It tells a story of desperately indebted men and women and competing in deadly games for millions of euros in cash while society's elites who are behind the games face little repercussion or no repercussion for their actions. So are we living in a real life Squid Game? And if so, how can we vote to end it? These are the questions that our panel will be discussing today. You out there, this is live, so if you've got any thoughts, ideas, comments, concerns, rants, anything you want to throw at us, please put it in the YouTube chat and we'll put it to our panel. Let's kick it off with Lukas. Thanks madam. So yeah, it's another piece of content about Squid Game. And why is it that it's such a phenomenon? Why is it that everybody's talking about Squid Game? Why is it that we, DM25, are talking about Squid Game as well? Well, there are several reasons. I think, first of all, it's a show that's about a dystopia, but it's not set in some faraway planet, some faraway future or alternate present like most dystopias are. It's about our society as it is. And of course, as far as we know, the 1% are not literally organizing that game just yet. But for example, just last summer, Jeff Bezos went to space and then when he came back, he gave a press conference and then he had the call to say something to the effect of, I want to thank Amazon workers for this because you guys paid for all of it. So basically, you know, thanking his workers for slaving away in horrible conditions and having to be in bottles so that he can entertain himself with his little rockets. So it's a capitalism that's so brazen that's so unafraid of real challenges that they're comfortable saying what used to go on set. And to exemplify how some people are living in a completely different planet, I actually saw this online and I want to share with you three quotes from business leaders on LinkedIn regarding Squid Game. The first one, the one culture value we love the most out of Squid Game is eco-opportunity. And that's what my company has always stood for. The second one, this article neatly explores some of the shows PR and marketing lessons that any brand can jump on. And then the third one is investing in Squid Game to investing lessons learned. So this is just to show how wide the gap in worldview between the wealthy and most of us has become. It's not just a wealth gap, but it's a gap in just the way you perceive everything. But to me, the most interesting aspect having watched the show is that the players, the participants in the game at one point, of course, they get to vote to end it very early on as soon as they realize what horrible thing that they have actually signed up for. They bring up that clause in the contract that they sign and then they vote in the game. They do that and then they go back to the real world. But then, of course, very quickly they come back once they realize how once they remember how hopeless their lives were outside in the real world as well. And then they decide that regardless of the cruelty of the game that they signed up for, there's actually not much of a difference. And in fact, it's even, it's a little bit more hopeful in the sense that there's more of a chance of you winning the lottery and then earning the financial security that all of them that's really neat. And I think that also resonates with me and with a lot of people because it's again, it's not so different from the world that we live in, you know, where democracy is, the meaning of democracy in so many places is just basically mainstream parties that cater to the same interests with different colors and different brandings and different people and slightly different messages. But essentially, you know, they answer to the same people. And more and more people seem to be attracted to radical alternatives or anything that might offer an exit from the current state of things, no matter where in the spectrum it might be. And I think it's crucial for us to be able to channel that energy into something that's truly progressive and that can move us beyond capitalism in solidarity and not in hatred. So how do we vote to end the game for real? Well, I think DM happens to believe that such a thing is possible. That's why we have electoral wings. And in fact, we have some very exciting news on that front. And I'm going to let our German members perhaps talk about that a bit later on. But yeah, that's it for me. Thank you. Thank you, Lucas. You said it all there, really. I should have introduced you, by the way, it's Lucas Fabraro, a new face around here, our new communications coordinator. Next up, Maya Pellevic, go. Yeah, well, I because I don't have social media, I actually didn't know about this squid game hype. So then when I realized that there is a new show that I must see, and it's the squid game, I have been binging it for a couple of days now. I've watched I think all maybe two, I have only two episodes left. And I was really, because this is a topic that I'm interested in also in my work, the topic of surveillance and of playing games and the way that democracy in our everyday life makes us play games that we're not aware of. And I don't want to talk about the like the dramaturgical aspects of it. I was really very surprised that so many people are watching a show that we have seen before, I think for dozens of times in lots of other shows, starting from The Hunger Games, that was a recent movie that had the, I could say, completely the same topics involved. And also, of course, all the movies which we've seen from the Truman's show to today. But the thing I realized, because of course, I was watching all the YouTube clips of all the people criticizing the show, I was mostly wanted to see what the hype was about, because it was like a big, big critic of capitalism, like, you know, all of us now realize what our worst enemy is. And I think that it's too plain, basic and simple in this show. And I remembered one movie. It's a movie from 1969 by Sydney Pollock called They Kill Horses Don't They. I don't know if some of the people watch the movie, but it's a movie based on a famous book by Horace McCoy from 1945. That is actually very similar to the, to the Squid Game. But it actually happened in America during the Great Depression. There were marathon dances. It was called like the Dance Marathon that happened during the Great Depression. And actually, people were really dancing in these big like spaces where people were watching them. They were dancing to death. There were people that were really ill. There were people that killed, killed themselves after these dance games. They had to dance for hours, days and weeks. They also slept there. And if somebody would Google Dance Marathons, they could even see clips about it. And this movie is like, it's like an actual documentary of the whole thing that happened during the Great Depression in America. And when they asked people why they participated in this game, they said that this was the only way that they could get shelter, food and a place to sleep at the moment. So most of the people did not enter the game just because of the prize, but because they could not survive somewhere else outside. So probably the, I was thinking why this show is popular now is that we are in a way entering a new kind of Great Depression with of course the pandemic, with all the things happening to us, with the surveillance that has been more obvious in the last two years. And maybe that's the main reason of the popularity of this show. And also one thing that people are not talking about, and I think it's an important aspect of the Squid Game, is that this is a show from South Korea. Actually, we're mostly used to seeing these kinds of shows, movies and series in the West, not so much in places like South Korea. And South Korea, of course, if we see it like a place that was divided from the North after the Korean War, we can also see the whole issue of the North and South actually on the Korean Peninsula. And also having one of the people in the show actually maybe even the wisest one being from North Korea. One of the girls that actually is involved in the Squid Game is from North Korea. And when they asked her why she came into the game, she said, well, I thought it would be better inside. And I think that it's also, we should also think that maybe if we look at the world, you know, after the Cold War, divided into the two, and forgetting that, of course, not talking about the North Korea in a positive sense, but all the positive things that we have still in North Korea like basic income, like the public healthcare system, and people that are the fetters from the North to the South, which we have in the Squid Game, they are entering a kind of place that is not so democratic as we think. And we have the whole equality thing that Lucas mentioned. And of course, the whole thing with the game is that all the people there are equal, which is really completely paradoxical because they're not equal, of course. And of course, looking at the whole democratic South as a place that in the way resembles also some kind of a concentration camp where we have, you know, the players going inside, you know, the ovens at the end, but into some kind of packages. So I think this is a very good example, how a show that is maybe something that we've seen before can enter some topics that we can talk about in the future. Thank you, Maya. I should warn our audience that if they haven't seen Squid Game, there'll be plenty of spoilers in it for them watching this. Dushan, Dushan Payavich. Okay, thanks, Mekhan. And I'm not going to lie, I'm not amazed by Squid Game. I think, as Maya said, that it is a mix of already seen TV shows and movies, like I don't know Circle, Would You Rather, Hunger Games, Platform, and so on and so on. But I liked two stuff from there. The first one Lukas briefly mentioned, it teaches us that two options, choosing between the two options is not a democracy. And this is what working in capitalism is. Would you rather work for Amazon and be in the bottle, like Lukas said, or would you rather starve and die? This is the question that they are presenting to us, that it is a democracy, that it is fair and square, but it is not. We need universal basic dividends, and we need to participate in the question, not just choose between the three options. One other thing that I like is, well, as you know, I'm animal liberationist, so I have to mention this. I think it portrays in a perfect way animal agriculture, because, for example, two reasons for that is that the people there are provided with number tags instead of names. This is just a way for us, for them to be completely depersonalized and without a real character. They use the same for animals in industrial agriculture. They have number tags instead of names. And also they use the world eliminate instead of murder, just like we slaughter animals in animal agriculture, or even the farmers sometimes use the word harvest. So euphemisms will not save us. It's still the same thing at the end of the day. Thank you, Dushan. A comment from Andrea Szymkus on the chat. One could argue that Squid Game promotes a position against elections as a mechanism for change. The participants vote for change, but living conditions remain the same and force people to return to the game. Interesting take. Who wants to comment on that or anything else they've heard so far? Who wants to go next? Everyone thinking, digesting. Srećko, can I put you on the spot? I think this is your wheelhouse. Go for it. Yes, you can. I'm sorry if my connection is a bit bad. I'm on a boat on a ferry, so I hope it will survive. So I watched, of course, the Squid Game. I mean, I'm a passionate serious watcher, so I watched it parallel to the other two series, which I think are also worth mentioning. The other one is White Lotus because it shows this decadence of the one percent and it's also very funny. And the other one is the chair which shows the decadence of the current academia. And it's interesting that these shows are now being shown either on Netflix or on other platforms and that precisely these shows are becoming very popular because what is in common to all these shows is that they show a certain critique of capitalism. But unlike many other critics or people who have watched these shows, I think actually it's very interesting to discuss their subversive potential, whether these kind of products of popular culture are subversive or aren't subversive. And watching Squid Game, I mean, it's impossible not to remember Mark Fisher, who, similar to David Graber, died too early. I mean, people usually died too early, except a few, and who coined the phrase of capitalist realism. This idea that, which is also, of course, influenced by this famous saying, which has been repeated so many times by Frederick Jameson, that it's impossible to imagine the end of the world, but it's impossible to imagine the end of capitalism. This kind of feeling which you have in Squid Game, that it's impossible to get out of capitalism. And as someone, I think it was Lukas at the beginning already said, you know, even when the players of Squid Game get out of the game, they're actually still inside of the game of capitalism, which in a way might be even more cruel than the Squid Game itself, because the Squid Game at least is very explicit in what will happen to them. So I think in that sense, I think it's popular partially precisely because it's part of this capitalist realism. And this is my biggest problem with the series. My biggest problem with dystopia these days. I'm a big fan of dystopia 10 years ago or 15 years ago in Croatian language. I published a book on dystopian movies. But I think the problem with current dystopia and generally with dystopia today, all the dystopia, of course, offers a critique of our current society and doesn't show us society in the future, but actually criticizes the current political economy, social conditions and so on. But the problem is that I think what we miss is actually utopian thinking. So instead of imagining the end of the world, I think we have to start imagining the end of capitalism. And in that sense, I think Squid Game still gives us two important directions. I would say one is the topic of debt, definitely, where in the in the in the series, I think it all resolves around the topic of debt. And I think it shows that the majority of people in the world today are highly indebted, whether it is the students with student loans in the United States, or it is people who don't have social housing anymore and have to take a loan and so on. And it also shows a new sort of morality, which again is nothing new. Friedrich Nietzsche already in the genealogy of morality showed that the etymology of debt is connected to guilt, because Schulte and Schulden in German language means guilt and debt. So those who are indebted, they are guilty as such. And then Maurizio Lazerato, a great philosopher, goes into the production of the indebted man, showing that everyone today becomes a kind of self-entrepreneur. You know, we are all ourselves responsible, even for our healthcare system, for our careers, for our education and so on. And in order to get healthcare education or housing today, of course, you have to get indebted. So I think definitely the topic of debt, which again would bring us back to David Graeber, in a way, is an important one. I think it's important that we have it in popular culture. And the other one, I think it's not by coincidence that both in White Lotus and in Squid Game, you have references to critical theory, which I find very interesting. So for instance, in White Lotus, of course, you have Franz Fanon, you have Judith Butler, not Judith, that's our Judith, but Judith Butler, the pronunciation, and you have Jacques Lacan. And then if you watch Squid Game, you again, I think in the first or second episode, besides René Magritte, the famous painter, you also have Jacques Lacan. And what does this say? I think it's not a pure coincidence. I think what both White Lotus and Squid Game show is the importance of what in French theory would be called libidinal economy, an economy which is based on desire, an economy which is based on the production of desire, an economy which is based on the production of the unconscious. And what it shows is actually, I think that in both series is that this libidinal economy was captured by capitalist realism. So instead of desiring a system which is out of capitalism, most of the protagonists both invite Lotus, the proliferiat who works there in the hotel, shitty jobs, bullshit jobs, as Graeber would say for the 1%, they also actually want to become the 1% in a way to start their own business, turn money and so on. And in Squid Game, all of them actually want to become rich. So in that sense, I think we have a serious problem with our current libidinal economy. And to conclude, I think it's a big task for a movement such as DM25 to also, and that's why I'm really happy to have this conversation today to start speaking about the libidinal economy, not just political economy, but an economy which is based on desire on the unconscious, and in which way we, the progressives, the Democrats, the subversives could capture or even produce a sort of libidinal economy which would get out of the capitalist realism. And I think that's our big task today in popular culture. We don't have many products which are actually showing in that direction. So in that sense, I think to conclude Squid Game kind of remains in the trap of capitalist realism, not showing really any kind of concrete progressive utopian desire. And I think that's the biggest problem. And it's our responsibility to create, recreate a sort of utopian desire today, even in popular culture. I think people here, Yanis or whoever, Maya for instance, should do Netflix series, because that's definitely a way to reach people and also to produce utopian desires. Or maybe a Netflix series of another now. Couldn't be a bad idea. Anyway, thank you for that contribution, Srećko. Lots of very important points, especially about the subversive potential of this. I mean, will Squid Game prompt people to take action? Is it possible today that a series like this could drive people to actually do something about it? Or will it just be another kind of social media drive by explosion? And this time next week, we're all binging on something else. Judith, you did. Forgive me. Thank you. I think there's another problem. I mean, apart from this series not showing us anything other than capitalism, there is also the problem that the whole series, as we're watching now, comes embedded in one of these platforms, which have taken over from our current version of capitalism, what Yanis sometimes calls techno feudalism. And that is a real problem with the consumption of a series like this one, because in Korea, when you watch it on Korean TV, it is a lot more subversive than the version presented on Netflix. So Netflix uses its power of influencing what we are seeing in the English speaking world by editing out references to, for example, the treatment of Pakistani immigrants, editing out references to the commons, to communal ownership. All of this is suddenly missing in the subtitles. And some are saying that the English subtitles provided by Netflix are actually worse than what the volunteer could do. So it really seems intentional that they cannot find any professional translators who are better than volunteers. And this is a problem with Squid Game. It's also a problem with pretty much all of their foreign content if you're watching it with subtitles. And the problem is that with this kind of platform, capitalism, we cannot actually go elsewhere. And like with a lot of previous series, I tend to binge on Chinese series, not Korean ones. I used to watch them with volunteer translations, and they were really good. But with Squid Game, you cannot actually watch them elsewhere to have a better translation. So you're forced to consume this series in the way that Netflix wants you to. And that means consuming Netflix, a worldview and not what is actually presented in this series. Great point. Thanks, Judith. Juliana, Sita. Thank you. A great comment from Judith because it fits to what I wanted to say. And I think that's really crucial to point out that the bigger picture here, which is for me Netflix, and to see that, I mean, Netflix is not like usual Hollywood production. I mean, Hollywood is like a network of people and creative people searching money and producers who will take their scripts and make a movie or series out of it. But Netflix doesn't function like this. Netflix has much more data on us, for example, than any usual Hollywood production would have. They know just how many people went into the cinema and how many people watched it on TV. But Netflix knows what we watched, when we watched it, when we stopped to watch it, when we've lost interest in something. And of course, they use all this data. If you look at the content of Netflix, almost everything is much more tending into a negative world, into problems. It's the same thing that Facebook figured out on us. If content is negative, we click on it. We just can't help ourselves. It's just it's like watching a car accident, where people cannot stop looking at it. And it's it's the same mechanism. So this is why I want to emphasize that it's not just about creative people making a series about the world and analogy to capitalism. This is also true. And of course, we can also benefit kind of of that. But I think it's more important to point out that they they just know what what we are watching and we what we want to watch, and they will always produce what they know that people will click on. So I think it's important to to criticize Netflix also, because it's a closed system, you cannot just submit a script to Netflix, they just work with people they know, it's complete. It's a completely closed circle of people who have 210 million subscribers, which, like Judith said, they can completely kind of, you know, tell the people what to watch and what to think. And I mean, subconsciously, on the long term, it works. Thanks, Juliana. And good point there in terms of surveillance capitalism and Netflix's business model, a squid game to date has made $900 million for Netflix, which is over 42 times its original cost. Meanwhile, the director who's based and writer who based the story on his own personal experiences, according to a piece in the Guardian was only very modestly paid. Okay, Ivana. Thanks. I really like this discussion, although I haven't seen any of the episodes of Squid Game, because I'm trying to boycott Netflix because of the reasons Juliana outlined. So I would like to go from the other perspective, and why is this question, which is not new, everybody said that this team is not new. I remember, because I can, running man with Schwarzenegger from 1987, which had the same topic. And I think that this kind of question, polarity of choices, as Duchamp said, democracy is not only choosing between two options is something that the industry is imposing to the audience to watchers to us that can relate to this and ask ourselves, which one would I choose? Would I stay a beggar? Or would I sell my soul to become rich? Why are these scenes so brutal and so obnoxious for people to watch? I think it's because we need to be kicked in the stomach to have a reaction because we are numb, because we don't feel anymore. We cannot relate to more industrial things, something that is not so much coming from the capitalism. And again, we are talking about the series that is just sensationalism. It's something that it's either creative industry, not art anymore. And this creative industry is also meant to produce capital, not to be a mirror to a society that art should be. Thanks, Ivana. Maija. I just wanted to add one short comment. Esretiko was saying that maybe this is a time to think about utopias and not dystopias. I'm actually a big fan of dystopias, but I think he's completely right. And I think that with the Squid Game, we have a big problem with the ending. Meron already said the spoiler alert not to watch this until the end of the series. And that is, of course, which we know from the beginning that there will be one player at the end who will win and get this enormous amount of money. And of course, they all want it. And at the end, we have the final player that gets the money. And he actually wants to change the system. But the problem is that in this utopia, in a way, we see dystopia because he is changing the system himself, number one, with money number two. So that's the actual problem with the message at the end of this Squid Game, that we have somebody that is supposed to be as the main character, a good character, that at the end is trying to destroy this game of capitalism. But he is trying to destroy the game in a sense of using the methods of capitalism, not killing the game itself. Because of course, killing or destroying this game cannot be done by one person. And I think that that's very important. Thank you, Maya. A comment from the chat from Christian Vieira. When big entertainment shows injustice, it isn't to bring awareness, but just to exploit what's already happening by grassroots movements in rekindling popular uprisings. It's just a way to release catharsis. Yanis, for the facts. Thanks, Mariam. Well, well, well, I am going to be in a minority of one. I don't think he has anything to do with capitalism. There's no capitalism in the Squid Game. The Squid Game could be, it's closer if you want to the wrong arena. It's absolutely consistent with a slave owning democracy, democracy regime, or feudalism. Indeed, it is very feudal. And this is where I resonate with what you did was saying before. It's closer to what I consider to be a new phase in the development of capitalism. But it's not capitalism. Because remember, I mean, firstly, this idea that you got the capitalists or the rich who are bored and who make people do stuff in order to be entertained. So the assumption there is that the money, the wealth, the power is independent of the game. It's already been decided. It's already been produced. There are the heves. For some reason, which is unexplained, it's not endogenous to the game. It's not part of the game. The game has not decided who the rich are. The rich are preexisting. No explanation of where the world comes from. So there's no theory in the Squid Game of wealth creation. It's only a question of what do the rich do with their power when they're bored? And how do they make the poor do things for their entertainment? That's the Roman Empire. It's not capitalism. There's not a smidgen of capitalism in the Squid Game. That's my first assumption. The second assumption is that, or comment, it's quite right to say that when you give people a stark choice between one thing and the other, that is, of course, not democracy. It was never meant to be democracy. I will make an offer you can't refuse is the strategy of the market. Now, of course, that is also found in capitalism in the sense that the reason why work is accept conditions of expectation because they have no access to the means of production. But in the Squid Game, there is no production. There is only distribution of existing wealth, which is not explained within the system. Now, many of you have mentioned many kinds, many varieties of this kind of feudal or Roman arena entertainment, whether it was a reality show, whether it was the running man, or whether it was things like who remembers that great movie of the 1970s, Rollerball. Do you remember Rollerball? Again, there is an element of truth in the sense that an exploitative oppressive regime requires bread and circuses. You need in order to keep people pacified to throw them some bread, so they're not starving and some circuses to entertain. And in a sense, the Squid Game is part of the circuses of a capitalism, which nevertheless is not reflected in the Squid Game. Having said that, and this is where I will pick up the thread from Judith. As many of you know, I have this weird theory that I'm working on that capitalism was already morphed into a variety of feudalism. So in that sense, maybe the Squid Game becomes more pertinent because capitalism is killing itself, is evolving out of capitalism. But I will insist, and this is how I'm going to close, in saying that it is a huge analytical error to try to find capitalism in the Squid Game, not consistent with the structure of the Squid Game, capitalism or vice versa. Finally, realistic utopias is what I trade in these days. This is exactly why I wrote another now, because I really enjoy these utopias, but we have a moral duty to answer the question, especially by younger generations, of how could things be different? Because that was David Graeber's greatest line ever, that everything would be different, a very revolutionary line. But then you have to answer the question is how could things be different? This is why I wrote another now. One last point, if you really want, and you know that I'm sure you've heard me say this, but I feel the need to repeat it, if you want a genuine analogy of capitalism in a dystopic depiction that comes from the arts, from the movies, from Hollywood in particular, it is the matrix. It is not anything related to the Squid Game, or any of these silly games. And why the matrix? Because in the matrix, the whole of humanity, the whole of humanity, become objects of exploitation by the machines that humanity has discovered, has invented. We all become, in the end, servants of capital in the matrix. That is a genuine analogy for capitalism. Because remember, Marx was not talking about the bad rich who are sitting in a room, who are bored, and they make the poor do things for them. No, no, no, no, no. That's capital. And that's why I am a Marxist. And that's why I think Marx was such a liberal, a radical liberal thinker, is because he's capturing the alienation, not only of the worker, but also the alienation of the capitalist. And the fear of the capitalist is that he's going to be going to become bankrupt. The rich in the Squid Game don't have any such worries. They will never go on the other side. But in the matrix, all humans, in the end, are reduced to becoming electricity generators for the machines that they've created. In the end, the machinery that we have created, whether these robots, or steam engines, or diesel engines, or conveyor belts, in the end, instead of them serving our interests as humanity, we end up serving the interests of capital accumulation. That's why I vote for the matrix, if you want, and an allegory for capitalism. Thanks, Yannis. Peral, Peral Madra. Thank you. I would like to look to this film from the point of view of society, of spectacle. I just read many paragraphs of Gideborg's Society of Spectacle, and most of the paragraphs are really describing what this film really means for the global society. I think we should, for example, if somebody writes a critical text about it, they will use probably a quote, probably, Gideborg during this text. But what made me, I mean, what I didn't find ethical is that they use a child's game, which is global. I mean, every country I have this child's game, and they really polluted this child's game. I think this was really disturbing for me. Making an innocent child's game at the end, the message is if you lose, you die. I mean, for example, if a child accidentally sees this film, can you imagine what happens in her or his imagination? So this was disturbing for me. And I really appreciate all the critical approaches of you. I think it was very good that we discussed this film. Thank you, Baral. A question from the chat. If we say that lives which are made of the time in which we're alive are priceless, how can we have wages hourly or otherwise? This is getting very philosophical. Srećko. Yeah, that's a bit too philosophical for me, but I'm joking. That's a question for Yanis, I guess. But I'd love to pick up on something what Maya said. And, this is this basic thesis that you cannot dismantle the master's house by the master's tools. That you cannot change the system you're trying to change by the very means of that system. That's one thesis. You've seen probably what happened today in the so-called semiosphere in the internet sphere when Novara Media from UK was completely shut down from YouTube without, as far as I know, in the last hours, without any kind of explanation from the site of YouTube why that exactly happened. So one of the leading alternative media in the UK just gets shut down and it doesn't exist on YouTube anymore. Now it's back in the meantime, but what does it say? It basically goes back to this thesis that you cannot dismantle the master's house by the master's tools. And I must spoil it immediately. I don't really believe that this thesis is necessarily correct. Of course, if we analyze this situation, our situation here, so all of us here for this meeting, we are using Zoom, then it's live streamed on YouTube. So basically we are all using platform capitalism in order to criticize platform capitalism. But I'm the one, as Yanis would know, that's the place where we met at the Subversive Festival in Zagreb, who still believes in subversion, that you can actually, and we must, we have the responsibility to use the existing tools in order to dismantle the master's house. How successful we can be in that, that's another question. How much will they co-opt us? That's also a very important question, but I think there is no escape from it. If you go back to the squid game, what would have happened if the main player who spoiler, but it's obviously obvious from the very beginning of the very series, that one player would end up there in the end, only one? What would have happened if he decided not to take the money? I think he can make a bigger mess by taking the money and ruining their game or ruining their show. And I think that's a lesson. I don't have a given answer, but how can we actually be subversive today by using the tools, as we are using now Zoom, YouTube, Twitter, where we announce our Zooms, and YouTube, and so on. We are basically using all the tools by Silicon Valley, whom we try to bring down and nationalize, not necessarily nationalize, but to actually turn technology into a commons. And that's a big question, how can we actually, if we still rely on these tools? Or in the end, you have this kind of VIPs, like similar to the squid game, who then just make fun out of us, or they make fun of Captain Kirk, for instance, or William Shatner to be more precise. You probably saw this scene when William Shatner comes back from space. He's saying, you know, what kind of revelation and just opening a bottle of champagne, not even listening to him, because for him, this is just a co-optation, both of Star Trek and all the energy and utopian energy of Star Trek, and just publicity for his company. So in a way, it shows our reality is much more dire, much more dystopian, I would say, than the squid game itself. Thank you, Srichko. And there's a very lively discussion in the Zoom chat about recommended viewing on some of the topics that we're discussing today. So David is putting them in the YouTube chat to share with everyone. Any other comments? Johannes, Johannes Ferre, go on. Thank you. I haven't watched Squid Game, and I'm probably not going to, because as some of you have already mentioned, we are working on some utopias at DM25. There's European utopia called the Green New Deal for Europe. And as Lukas mentioned in the very beginning, we are working towards an event on 13th of November to present our utopia for Germany. It's a program that DMers are currently voting on. So if you're a DMer or if you want to join the movement, then do this. And you can vote on our utopia, our vision. It's called For Vision and Responsibility, our program for DM25 in Germany. We are also voting on the name of our lecture wing, our lecture wings everywhere actually, as well as for Germany. And I wanted to mention that if you are free to travel to Berlin on 13th of November, or if you're living there, please come, get a ticket. And in general, join us and let's try to build this utopia together and then definitely make sure that we are not living in the Squid Game. Thanks. Very masterful, Johannes. Nice. Any other comments, thoughts? We've discussed a lot. We've approached this from many different angles. I think there's been a lot mentioned. Johannes thinks Squid Game has nothing to do with capitalism. We've had due this very, very important intervention about Netflix's dubious translation, which is communicating Netflix's worldview, infiltrating our brains. Any other comments or should we wrap it up? We're at the top of the hour. That was a fascinating discussion, everybody. Okay. Well, there we go. We'll leave it with Johannes's note on the forthcoming German party. Thank you very much for you guys watching and for your comments. And let me just remind you very quickly that our campaign accelerator program is now open for applications. That's our grassroots activism incubator program, where we'll work with you to build a campaign to address issues in your community. The deadline will be end of Saturday, October 30th. So please apply to that at dn25.org-ca. And we will see you at the same time.