 and welcome to episode 359 of the Private Property Podcast. I'm your host, Usaman Thoma. In addition of the Private Property Podcast, if you join us for the first time, welcome to the leading property show in South Africa, catering to all of your property needs. Make sure that you follow us across our social media platforms on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, we're on TikTok, and of course, catch up on all the great episodes that you have already missed out on, whether on Facebook or YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow myself at Usaman Thoma on Twitter as well as on Instagram. And to one of our regular viewers who watch us on Instagram, Facebook and on Twitter, on Facebook, YouTube rather, as well as on Instagram, look at me tripping over these social media platforms. You know how we do it. Every weekday, you and I have an appointment. We're always in conversation with a property expert who helps us navigate our property journey. And this really is the show that you come to, to get expert answers on all of your property needs. And of course, you can also catch a host of other shows that Private Property has across our social media pages. And that is every single weekday at 8 PM. As it is a Monday, you can catch a chat on the home shopping show. I'm tripping over our shows today. It's probably good because it's a blue Monday. I had low share in twice today. So I am having a very blue Monday, but I'm glad that I'm able to be here with you that I'm not being low share. And of course, we are able to be together. So we're going to roll with it. I think many of us probably did experience, you know, double low share today and trying to still get to work and do work as best as we can, even despite the power cuts. Well, as I was saying, you can catch a chat on this evening on the Home Shopper's Show. It comes to your screens every Mondays and Fridays. Every Tuesdays and Thursdays, you can catch on by your knock on the farming park cars, tackling all things agriculture. And on Wednesdays, Eastie Classroom brings you First Time Home Shopper's Show. The First Time Home Buyer's Show, rather, which is always in conversation with people who are on the vault of that First Time Home Buying Journey, but have gone on to grow their property for collures from strength to strength. And talking about growing things from strength to strength, you know that one of the things that we absolutely love doing is changing things up when it comes to competitions. We did promise you that we're going to have another competition where you can set a chance of walking away with 500 grand cash every single day right here on the Farming Park. And this time around, we want to find out from you some of the great lessons that you have learned while watching the podcast. We have posted, you know, the link that we posted, rather, and pinned the post on our Facebook page. And we're looking to also get 20,000 comments on that post. We're setting another big, bold target. So do share with us what you have learned from watching the podcast. I'm going to be in the Farming Park Castle, the First Time Home Buyer's Show, and we'll be announcing the winner live right here on the show. And as usual, we'll have to be watching this live in order to claim the prize. It's that easy to walk away with 500 grand right here on the private property podcast. And if nobody claims the money, as usual, we're going to have a roll over to the following day and that money is going straight into the money bag. Well, this evening's conversation is one that I am quite excited about. And, you know, we did promise last week that we're going to have a let's call it a pop two of this conversation. Last week, when we're looking at the RDP resale market, I think one of the things that became clear is that there, you know, there are certain challenges that people unfortunately encounter when it comes to, you know, RDP houses, whether it's issues of title of needs, issues of selling the type, you know, the property, sometimes even the family homes and trying to get a sense of who's who's the title deed, who's whose name rather than the title deed is in. And that's exactly what we're going to be looking at this evening. We're looking at the former residential property market transactions. First, we're going to get a good oversight of, you know, what the stage of the market is and then really look at some of the touch points that I had promised last week that we're going to look at. So in the event where you know that, you know, a family member even yourselves have either it's an RDP house or a family home and you're not struggling with, you know, the paperwork and how to best navigate it. That's exactly what we're going to be dealing with this evening. So do share some of those insights with us down here below, what you hear from me. Also, how was your weekend? I mean, I, we already said you started on a remote. I started with already six AM, had no chatting, no chatting again in the afternoon. But when I found out from you at home, how you are doing and certainly how you're navigating this double loan shedding, because I'm struggling with it. I mean, as you can see, I'm like tripped already so many times just doing this show. But let me introduce my guest. The guest this evening is Ilana Melser, who's a founder and the engagement manager at 71.4 Consulting. Ilana, thank you so much for joining us on the show. Thanks so much for having me. It's only a pleasure, Ilana. I think let's get into it. I mean, first, before we even look at, you know, the types of cases that, you know, get dealt with in the Transaction Support Center that we spoke about, let's have a sense of the formal residential property market transactions in South Africa, just at a high level, what they look like. I think one of some of the figures that were shaped last week really did surprise me. I didn't realize that the RTP market in particular looked the way that it looked. But perhaps can you just give us a sense of what that market, you know, at a high level looks like. Yeah, if we look at the total residential properties that are registered in these registries, that's about 6.6 million properties. And what you'll see happening every year is that all those properties around 2.5% so will be reselling or transact. Sometimes sincerely, a person-to-person sale, some of those might be a transfer out of a deceased estate, but those are the full transactions. So you've got around 160,000 or so transactions, property market transactions, resell transactions that are happening every year. You've also got new books coming into the market. So in South Africa in 2019, there was about 56,000 units of new properties that came into the market. So you can see the markets growing every year. A lot of those new properties are actually government properties, although we never know how many. But a lot of them are built and not registered. So that's always a challenge. But if we just look historically at the trends what government is saying in terms of their RDP development at about, call it on average 100,000 units a year, we're not picking anything up like that in the Deeds office in terms of new registrations that would be closer to, say, 20 or 30,000 a year just depending on the year. So these are some of the challenges. We even the formal market, what should be formal is often not afflicted in the data because of the backlog on title deeds. And unfortunately with 2020 and COVID and all of that kind of stuff, we've had a lot of delays happening in the Deeds office, in the Masters office. So we think that some of the transactions that we'll be seeing coming through from 2020 might be a little bit depressed. And maybe we'll see some catching up in 2021 and opening 2022 as we get back to some sort of sense of normalness where offices are closed for extended periods of time. We should see those numbers. And you know, I actually want us to spend a good chunk of the show looking through some of the and unpacking some of these challenges and what the potential solutions are. Because we already got some of those questions last week. And I know that it's one of those issues that often people struggle with, right? And before we kind of look at individually the different types of, I'll say, problems, perhaps take us through firstly the categories of matters that you would typically deal with before we zone in on a few of them. Because I know that viewers at home want to get a good sense of how they can, whether they're facing that individually or there's a family matter. And oftentimes it's a family matter and trying to find ways of resolving it. Because the issues of title deeds is such a big one in so many different instances. And it's unfortunate that we are not getting solutions, I'll say, from a mainstream perspective. And that's why, you know, this show in particular is so important. Yeah, I think you're really hitting the nail on the head. It's not unfortunate in mainstream, but it affects so many millions of households and so on. I think maybe a good way of thinking about it is first you distinguish between those properties that have been registered and whether there is a title deed and those properties that have never been registered and there's no title deed. So maybe let's start with those ones first, the ones that have never been registered. So, and these are typically already P houses that can build some of them many, many years ago. But because sort of government prioritized building the house and they wanted to do it quickly, they didn't sort of do all the necessary sort of planning and land legal sort of requirements. And so now it comes to registering the deeds office and they can't and there's an enormous delay and they have to go back and register the servitudes and do whatever they need to do. And what's happened is that in the meantime, the original beneficiaries who were allocated to that house might have moved on or they might have sold or they might have died. And now you've got this enormous problem of trying to figure out whose name to put on that title deed because you can't just put the original beneficiary on it because they might not be they might many cases that are alive. So there has to be this very detailed investigation and when they are claims on a property that are not sort of substantiated they have to be investigated. So it's a very, very time consuming and very lengthy process. I think that's one category of challenge and not to underestimate the task. It is a very, very onerous task, a very laborious task, but we have to do it. So we have to pay attention to who should earn the property before you transfer the property. So that's one category. Then in the category of cases where they originally was a title deed and maybe the title deed was issued 30 years ago or 25 years ago to the legitimate owner and what we see is that with the passage of time that title hasn't been maintained. So for various reasons in some cases the original registered owner might have passed away and is never resolved the estate. They never reported the estates, they never transferred the assets out of the estate to the names of the new owners or whatever the case is and that might have happened years ago. You might have an informal transaction. So people might have bought and sold properties without going to a conveyance. Because the conveyancing system is not accessible and it's pretty expensive and there are local informal systems that seem to work well. They seem to work well because obviously they can't work well and the formal system work well. You've got to have one system. You can't have competing systems and so that's a major problem. You've got an informal transaction that also might have happened years ago. You need to find the proof. You need to make sure that whoever the successors are in terms of title to that property agree that there was a sale and then you need to formalize it. So that can take many, many months particularly if the original owner is deceased and you've got to trace the heirs and all the permutations and problems that can happen with that. We've also got other problems. We're just a cause of like no one was paying attention so there might be errors on a title. And this is not uncommon that people come to us and the ID number is wrong or the name is stolen. And you have to do the work to go and rectify that error. We've got a whole lot of clients where the property was registered in the old apartheid system and the ID numbers are not today's ID number. That's not their fault. But now the way things currently work, they would have to pay a conveyancer to go and correct that error. And so I think it's all those kind of challenges that we're seeing. We've seen cases, a lot of cases where properties were registered. It's a married couple, but only the husband's name is on the title. There was a customary marriage. It was never reported to us. The customary marriage was never registered. And now to kind of undo this and to make sure that the surviving spouse gets access to that property, it can take many, many months of working through things, finding the evidence. And in some of the cases that we're working with, there isn't a precedent. So it's kind of like officials are dealing with this for the first time. And they're as clueless as to how to deal with this. It's like, okay, we've got this client, a very poor person. It was a customary marriage. It was never registered. What do we do now? And it's like, we don't go to home affairs. It's like, well, home affairs come and help us. What do we do? So this is just the nature of the work that a lot of the processes haven't been worked through. And so the clients come with a problem, and it can take a long time to resolve it. But I have to say that we are committed to resolving it. And I think more and more we're finding that officials that we're working with are committed to resolving this. And I think we're getting more and more interest at more senior levels within government who understand how important it is to resolve this challenge and to really assist people to access the assets that they own in a formal legal way. And you know, you know, Ilana, firstly, I think it's very encouraging to know that there's definitely a commitment to resolving this because this is one of those things. And even in last week's episode, that really gets me fired up. It's one of those things that keeps me awake at night that oftentimes when it comes to housing poor South Africans, we don't prioritize some of these things. And the repercussions are so far reaching beyond, you know, the original owner, for instance, the inability sometimes even for the children or the grandchildren to be able to trade with that particular property, right? Because when we understand that this is actually an asset that by the time, you know, the kids or the grandchildren have access to it, they're able to do XYZ with it and use it in certain ways, the barriers that we've created for poor people to be able to have, we'll call it formal ownership. And I say formal with, you know, with the title deed that has the right names in place is one of the things that's, you know, holding so many households back. And we've seen so many fights, you know, countless fights, people's homes being sold behind their backs, somebody coming and making family members, you know, sign papers, you know, sort of power of authority. And they weren't aware what they're signing. And only after the fact, we realized that actually, this is what you were signing. And they're now people who want to move into the house. So when we look at this particular topic, it really is one of those things that we need to set up and want to address, because so many people are affected. You know, when we heard the statistic last week about just how big the RDP market is, you realize that it's not a segment that you should be ignoring just by virtue of, you know, people didn't buy that particular property in ways that many people buy it. We still need to be able to service, you know, those people as much as possible and ensure that the paperwork is in place because as you say, there's so many structural systems that have unfortunately led to, you know, the paperwork not being what it should be. When we come back for the break, I want us to go for a quick break and see who the lucky winner for our new competition is. As of course, you share what you have learned on the show. Right. And we're going to find out who that lucky winner is of the 500 grand cash prize. I'm going to come back to Ilana. I want us to maybe tackle one or two, you know, scenarios and what people at home can do because I think they're really big thing and you hit the nail on the head. People don't know and won't even be able to afford to use a conveyance in so many instances. I think it's one thing to know that an attorney must be involved, but the reality of so many people who find themselves in that situation is they simply do not have the means to pay for one. And often they get sent from pillar to post and there's never a clear direction in terms of this is actually what needs to happen. And so really want to get a good sense for viewers at home who find themselves in similar situations about some of the active steps that they can make instead of having to go to a police station and home affairs and, you know, having a lot of back and forth and obviously incurring transport costs and all kinds of other costs. And so we're definitely going to be looking at a few scenarios and what you can do at home if you find yourselves in that particular scenario, but let's see who the lucky winner for that first installment of our new competition is going to be. And I can see we kick starting this evening with two winners. So we're going to have two people walking away with that cash prize. And I see we've got Usaiman and Parker as well as Michelle Hressel. So Michelle Hressel, Usaiman and Parker, do you drop us a text down here below to claim that 500 grand in cash? You're both going to get dibs on that should you drop us a message. It is that simple to walk away with cash right here on the private property podcast with myself, Usaiman Domo, Tomalo. This evening I'm in conversation with Ilana Melser who is the founder and engagement manager at 7.4 Consulting. And we're looking at the formal residential property market transactions and really getting a sense of what we can do in the event where we're facing challenges with let's say the family home or RDP home and wanting to move it to the formal sector. And we say formal because we really mean having the paperwork and the paperwork reflecting the owners that it should reflect. So you're not going to have issues with even names not being spelled properly because by the time one day when you want to start it then you'll have issues. We're not having any effect. And we really want to get a sense of what can we do in the event where we find ourselves in some of these situations. And I really see some of the love that we're getting on our Facebook page from our viewers at home. We've got here who was saying who was saying new competitions, new hashtags. It's nice to be here. I agree. Megan from Sculpey saying private property good. It has been a perfect Monday. How are you fam? I'm so excited for my favorite part of the evening Monday nights with private property. Also watching same private property all good family. And of course we've got some of the regulars who are also tuned in. Justin Bartman watching there. We've got. I want to start with the first scenario. And it's one that you've already touched on. And it's one that's actually happened so many instances. I've seen it so many countless times. And many of us have even, you know, we know somebody who's found themselves in the situation where you have a family home. And let's use Soweto because I think Soweto is a very big township. And the reality is, you know, our parents and grandparents and sometimes even great grandparents lived there. And the title deed was in the name of the grandparents or the initial beneficiary. And there is a title deed. And it is in, you know, sort of their name. And but they have, as you've pointed out earlier, they've passed away. And they passed away many years ago. And, you know, their children also supposed the children also passed away. And we're now left with grandchildren. And they don't know how we then resolve this, right? Because the grandfather would have had, let's say, three, four, five children. And now all his children are late. And you guys are now the grandchildren. And it becomes a question of firstly, whose name is meant to go on to the title deed? If let's say the grandchildren, their 10 grandchildren, how do we navigate that one? Because that's a very big one when we look at particularly, you know, homes and townships, where really our grandparents, you know, got those homes. And at some point, I know there were different government initiatives with title deeds. And as you say, you know, people then pass away, we aren't able to resolve it. And here we are now realizing that here things that are happening. And the unfortunate thing in some of these scenarios is that sometimes the one grandchild may want to try and sell the property. And then, you know, all kinds of things happen. So in the event where that's a, the scenario that people at home have where, you know, grandparent passed away and the parents have also now passed away and you are the grandchild, how do they go about resolving that particular matter? I mean, where does one even start? Yeah, yeah, I mean, it can be very, very complicated. I think the place that I would start, and I'd be interested in hearing with other people about different suggestions is did that grandparent have a wall? And did that actually write a legally binding wall to say, this is what I want to have happened to my property? That's the first question. And if there was a will, then you need to follow the instructions according to the law. So which person did the house go to? And you would kind of notionally do that transaction, let's say that person also is the sister, that person have a wall. And then you would follow that. So the simplest cases or the ones that are potentially easiest to resolve are the ones where they are walls in place. We know a lot of people don't, don't have walls and don't have walls. And I would say for everyone at home who's got a property, if you've got a property, have a wall, just make sure you've got a wall because it creates enormous problems for your ears if there isn't a wall. And I will give you examples if you want to talk about those. But so that's the first question. So the first question is, the second question is, what's the value of the property? Is the property in excess of 250,000 rent? 250,000 rent is currently the smallest state special. If the value of the property and you'd look at the municipal valuation, so you look at your monthly rates account and your water account, you see what value the municipality puts on it. If that value is below 250,000 rent, it's a lot simpler and cheaper to transfer the property. If it's above 250,000 rent, then you actually have to go through the formal process of winding up the estate. And every time you do that, it costs you three and a half percent of the estate. So it just becomes a very costly, you know, so let's imagine the house is worth, you know, let's say it's 300,000 rent, you're going to have to pay for the property transfer and then you're going to have to pay to wind up the estate and you can't miss sticks in the chain. So that gets very expensive. And I would say that really what you should do is get in touch with the transaction support center. Or you could get in touch with Pro Bono if you are, if you earn below the threshold, so it's about 600,000 rent a month, half of the income, you might get assistance from Pro Bono. Or we can just go up to our Facebook page, the transaction support center or TSC Facebook page and just get in touch with us because you've got to investigate the facts of the matter. But if there's no will, what will happen is that the estate will be divided according to the laws of interstate succession. And basically that says depends on the value of the property, but it goes to surviving spouse. If there's no surviving spouse goes to children, if there's no surviving children goes to grandchildren, if there's no grandchildren etc. So there are a lot of rules around how a property is transferred, but a lot of things can get in the way. So for instance, if there was no will and there were children and there are no grandchildren, that can be, and the grandchildren are minors, that can become very difficult because you can't just sign a way to get the right to a minor to the property. So all of these cases get very, very complicated and you do need to have someone to assist you through this. And again, I would say get in touch with the transaction support center. Let us help you guide you through the process. It is going to be laborious. So prepare yourself. It's going to take a lot of time. And then of course, that's just the legal process. There's of course, the process of just agreeing between the ears, what should happen. And often that's actually when things get stuck. And I would say a really first, you know, if you call a rich agreement, find a mediator who can help you to agree around what should happen. And you know, if someone wants to cash out what the process will be. So sit around as a family, discuss what you want to do with the property, and then come to the transaction support center. Let's just see if we can help you get to that outcome. But as I say, prepare yourself for a very, very long process. We can cut some of the costs of the process, but it is going to be long. It's going to take a long time. So that that's just the way that is. You know what we find with a lot of the ODP properties that we're dealing with here in Cape Town? We're working in areas like Kainich or Delft. Those are new areas. So we haven't got too many cases where it's a multi-generational family issue that needs to be resolved. But those are very tricky. And there are a lot of proposals around how to resolve this. We're not sure that any of them are really going to work. You know, the more people have a claim to a property, it just gets more and more complicated. So again, that's why we would say to any property owner, just make sure you have a one. Make sure you discuss with them kids that everyone knows what's going to happen to the property. And the more people have a claim on it, the more complicated it gets. What happens if someone wants to sell, as you say, what happens if the others don't want to buy out their share? Just gets complicated. So I mean, that's what, you know, can't say there's a silver bullet, but there are people out there who are willing to help. And I think, I think you know, you know me. So, so getting touch with pro bono, getting touch with a TSC. And I mean, Ilana, when we then also look at instances, and this is also something that, you know, you highlighted earlier, instances where perhaps the property was, let's say either the parents or the grandparents may have sold it to a another party. And the property was in their name. So they had, we'll say legal right to be able to sell that particular property. And there was never a change of ownership. Even though at the time they did actually have the title deed. I mean, I know of an instance where then, because as you said, oftentimes people will do, you know, a contract or go to police station, even to write the terms of the payment terms, for instance, that, you know, the property, let's say we're going to say it's 200,000 for instance, and you must pay it over in a one year period. And they failed to pay it over that one year period. And they kind of give you the grace and the grace. It's now year three. And the parents or the grandparents are like, actually, nope, we want, we'll say, out of this transaction because you're not paying. And yet the property is still in the other party. They're still living in the property. Now many years have gone on. They're still living in the property. As the parents or the grandparents, you still have the title deed. But now it becomes a question of, okay, who has right over the property? You know, especially, let's say the parents did give back all the money or they didn't give back all the money was whatever was signed, you know, so legally binding that ownership must actually change. It's an era that it hasn't changed. How do we, because we're seeing quite a lot of those kinds of, you know, instances, because when the property was initially, you know, sold, lawyers didn't get involved and, you know, people moved. And I suppose didn't think that it was, you know, important, but, or again, perhaps not even knowing that that's a crucial part of, you know, the transfer process that we must have a conveyance in place in the event where the owners who have the title deed now will say want their property back. And I mean, physically back. How do they go about resolving that? Because I think that's also one way you obviously can't go in and chase somebody out of, you know, the property or do all kinds of sinister things because also know that's not legal. So how do they actually try and go about resolving that matter? Because their argument would be, well, we've got a title deed and it's the correct title deed and it's in our name. It hasn't changed all these years. And the other party, you know, has their side of the argument. How do they go about resolving it? You know, this is a very difficult question to answer. You know, there's the legalities. So what are the rights? And technically speaking, if you've got a title deed and there was no valid sort of sale agreement, so there was no deed of sale that was valid, and there's money outstanding. If you took that matter to court, the court would probably find in your favor and allow you to evict the people living in the property. So that that might be what your legal rights are, of course, to enforce that in a local community where there might be a computing system of kind of informal regulations where people are saying, hey, this family's been living out for years. And they made an initial installment which hasn't been paid back. And you agree to let them stay on and just be reasonable. We're not going to. And if you evict them, we're going to burn that stuff. You know, who knows what they're going to do. But I think that's some of the complications now that arise because there's been this degradation of a record of who owns what an uncontested agreement of who owns what. And so the contestation creates a lot of challenges in local communities. And, you know, again, it's always better to try and reach an agreement. And for the parties to sit around a table and, you know, to be reasonable and just say, OK, this is what happened. This was our initial intention. We're going to pay over X many months. It didn't happen like that. What do we do now? It's not right that you're continuing to live in the property without paying. On the one hand, on the other hand, we do accept that you want to do by the property. What do we do now? So I think, you know, these are the challenges and the courts are always there, but the courts are very expensive. It's going to cost a fair bit of money to get an eviction order. So I think that would probably be the last result. And I think what we're really interested in is finding out about these alternative mechanisms to resolve these disputes and to figure out whether there isn't another way to do it. And a lot of the time it depends on the local community dynamics on leadership, trusted by the parties. Is there anyone they both trust to mediate with them to sit down and work through an agreement? Because that's ultimately what you're going to have to do is just come to an agreement. And sometimes it takes time and it takes time for people to to let that sink in. I know in conflicts that I've been in, I think we've all been involved in conflict. Sometimes you're just so angry. It's like, this is my right. I'm right. That was just get up. And then someone just talks to you and says, you know, you just have to take a deep breath. It will take time but come to an agreement that's fair and that will work for both parties. So I think that's what would have to happen in these kind of circumstances. But I'd love to hear whether you've got other views or other people have got other views and other experiences. I mean, we're seeing, I had a client today, a case today, of a woman who bought a property. I think it's in Google Air to Incantar. Many years ago, didn't get the title deed transferred from a conveyance. But as kind of an act of goodwill and as evidence of the transaction, the seller actually gave her the original title. So she's sitting with the original title. This often happens. She's got copies of the seller's ID. She's got everything she needs except for a valid sale agreement. So we have to find that seller and we can't find the sale. So she can't get a number. She knows there's a cousin who lives near her but she won't give the number of the seller. So we've got to now find another way to trace the seller because without the seller's signature on a sale agreement, you can't get their transfer through the deed's office. So this is the reality and it affects a lot of people. But you've got to make the best efforts. Eventually, we'll find the seller and I'm sure she's a reasonable person and she'll understand. I think it's also one of those things we'll hope because the seller, unfortunately, we're finding people are also realizing that, well, I, you paid the money. I've now long used the money. There was no valid sale agreement. So there's also no way where you can have sort of legal recourse for me to pay you back your money. And legally, I still own the property. The fact that I gave you this title deed, they can get another copy from the deed's office. It's not like there's only one that sort of exists. And so it's one of those things where we want to assume that we're working with sellers in good faith. And I think more than anything, this is why it's just so important and I'm emphasizing this to the viewers at home that you get that sale agreement in and that you understand the sale agreement and that you get a condenser in. I know how expensive it is and that when you haven't budgeted for it, particularly, it's even a bigger barrier of entry. This is where when you're helping friends and family members, when it comes to property transactions, especially family homes, we all know the struggles that we have when it comes to the, you know, I think now more than ever, it's so important for us to make sure that we have the legal stuff in place. We've seen far too many stories of property being sold behind siblings or grandchildren's bags or one of the siblings or grandkids who's usually the more educated one, making people sign powers of authority. They want to show what they were signing and then a property is now being sold. So now more than ever, in the event where there's a family member that you know of, let's try and get things in place now and anything, even Elana was saying with emphasizes on the show, get that bill in place as well because then it makes some of this so much easier to manage whether it's your children who are going to be managing that it or their grandchildren who are going to be managing it because far too often these kinds of, you know, instances, Elana and it's very sad, we sometimes end up, you know, finding and we always say like, basically it's, I mean, a direct translation is it's eaten, but that's not what we mean. But oftentimes other people end up, you know, getting the house because all of all the conflict even within the family and you know, sometimes they even offer you let's say 200,000 and you know, to some families that seems like a lot, but it's actually being split between five people for instance, and all of that could have been, you know, avoided certain things being in place because we cannot take for granted the importance of shelter and the importance of having the family home and the options that having a title deed to a property gives a family, you know, I think now when we look at the township property market and we're seeing how people are even, you know, putting back rooms and using that as a means to make a bit of extra money for the family, we can't downplay how that as a tool can be something that a family can use. Ilana, we have run out of time, but I just want you to, you know, final tip on your side for people at home who find themselves in conflict situations when it comes to but it's RTP house or certainly the family house and in terms of just the best ways to go about trying to resolve the matter. Yeah, I would say two things. The one is where we've seen in foreign transactions, a lot of times people are honest and will agree they sold the house. I think yes, we get very anxious, don't be anxious, let's get the data, let's get the information before you get anxious and make an effort to formalize there's a long journey ahead, but it's worth it and don't be anxious about it. You know, chances are the person that you bought the house from is not a crook. So I think just to end that one on that more hopeful note. But then I think, you know, the family homes issue, the one thing that really strikes me about properties in Soweto, that's very different from the properties we're dealing with in Kainichah. In Kainichah, the average stand is about 75 square meters. 75 square meters, the house fits on the stand, that's it, it's tiny. What you're dealing with in Soweto is a very large stand and land is at a premium and the opportunity to develop and to go multi-story and to really think of that family asset as an asset that could actually house many, many families if you go up. And I think that to me it's like those kind of opportunities, think creatively around how to build up, instead of fighting over what there is, how do you come together to build more. And I think if the family can resolve around maybe it's transferring the property into the name of a company and everyone's own shares in a company and we agree that the company is there to develop that asset to build a multi-story development have, I don't know, 12 flats on the property and each family member gets one and the other, you know, they six family members and the other six are rented out. Whatever the situation is, you've actually got a sizeable asset that can accommodate a lot of it. So I think it's solutions like that. Of course, there are times when they just is conflict, you know, and people don't agree and those are terrible, terrible times. And I think to just bring in people and the family trust, to just, you know, try and kind of look at something that instead of sort of dividing up a small thing between many people to think about how to grow that and how to make it work for the family members. I mean, that's not anything I can say. And to just say that sometimes, you know, just going to an external party finding a mediator can help everyone think differently about the situation and can help you see a solution. That's what I would say. No, Ilana, we're going to leave it there. And I think it's a really great note. I would urge viewers at home to reach out to the Transaction Support Centre. We have shared their link down here below. Of course, you can also reach out to Pro Bono because you really do want people who will be able to walk the journey with you. As Ilana has pointed out, it can be a very long journey. And you at the very least want to work with people you know, have a good sense of the steps ahead. And people that you know are not trying to also scam you because I think the other reality in so many of these situations is you find people who say they can fix these sort of problems. And more often than not, they don't have the means to do so. And you pay thousands and thousands of rents and it's still not resolved. So we're going to leave it there this evening. Ilana, it was such a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you for joining us. Thank you so much. Thank you. And that is Ilana Melser, who's the founder and engagement manager at 71.4 Consulting. Wrapping up the Monday edition of the Private Property Podcast with my son, Fuzamantou Mouakumalo. We kickstarted our competition this evening. We didn't get any claims. So those two lucky winners unfortunately didn't claim. So the money is going to be rolling over in the money bag for tomorrow evening. While I have overstayed my welcome, you can look forward to Chad on the Home Shoppers show right now at 8 p.m. I'll be back on your screens tomorrow evening at 7 until then hoping you stay home and stay safe.