 Great. Excellent. So this is the Public Safety Committee meeting today is January 25th. It is 6.07 p.m. So the first item on the agenda is a motion to approve the agenda. There are three members of the Public Safety Committee that are on this meeting. That's myself and Councillor Stromberg and High Tower. Our staff person is Assistant City Attorney Jared Pellerin. If there could be a motion to adopt the agenda. So moved. Okay. And a second. A motion and a second. All those in favor of the motion to approve the agenda please say aye. Aye. We have our agenda. Before we get to the public forum there is an item of approval of the Public Safety Committee minutes for January 11th. I was not at that meeting. I believe both of you were at that meeting. So if you want to one of you wants to make that motion and then second it and then the two of you can vote on it. Moved to approve the minutes. Second. Okay great. So there's a motion to approve and a second. All those in favor aye. And and then just the record will note that I did not vote as I wasn't at the meeting. This is when we go to the public forum. I believe there is one member of the public who's here. Reed if you if there was something that you'd like to add now but we're a very small committee and if there is something that you'd like to say later you're also welcome to do that. So you have the ability to speak if you wanted to participate in the public forum now would be that time. So I the other member the other people that are here are all people who are I believe part of the working group on the CNA report. So your opportunities to speak if you'd like will be when we get to the next item. So we'll close the public forum and then go on to the committee discussion on the CNA report. That's that's sort of a bit misleading on the agenda because it says we're going to be discussing the CNA report recommendations and I think one of the things that you know so James Zariah and I met with Jared yesterday yesterday morning to try to go and get ourselves recharged after after the meeting on the 18th that we did not have and try to regroup and figure out a you know if we could a very you know an efficient way of going through a very complex report. There's 148 recommendations in the report. Some of them are pretty involved. There's nine sections to the report and this committee the public safety committee has been charged with going through this report and it is our goal to try to do that before the end of the council year which would be March 31st. My apologies to all of you for getting us off to a less than ideal start by not being at the first two meetings but we're all here now and are going to try to see how we can best move through this report and that's what we're going to try to discuss this evening is I had sent all of the members of the working group which are two of the police commissioners a member of the church street marketplace and a representative from the Vermont racial justice alliance and I think I have everyone on I'd sent you a matrix that the acting chief of police had developed when the CNA report came out. We can certainly maybe as the if you have that just for the benefit of those who may not have seen that Jared at some point we maybe we can maybe we can post that so others can see this. I do believe we posted it I uh after you would send the email I spoke with chief and we put it on the board docs. Right so if you go to board docs under public safety for this meeting you'll see you'll see the signed resolution this is on item 4.01 you'll see the sign resolution raising the sworn head count and that also included the information about the CNA report and then acting chief Murad had had developed this spreadsheet or matrix of all of the recommendations and you know we're trying to figure out a good way that is effective of going through the recommendations in a way that we don't get too sidetracked and go off onto you know lots of tangents or not be talking specific to the recommendations but and I'm wondering whether or not you know this it seems as though this this spreadsheet would be very helpful at least in getting us started and I think that's the reason why it was it was sent to us we talked about whether or not we could add columns to the spreadsheet make it a little bit more our own um and uh and how that would move how we could move that going forward whether or not there would be a way that we could go through the first um the first 78 were sections one two and three and which is a lot um John had gone and and in his and this was in you know obviously in his opinion put um items that were um either uh that he agreed with that were underway that in his opinion were done um or disagreed with and he color coded those on you know in the interest of moving forward um how members of the working group and the committee feel um about the ones that you know and it doesn't have to be a blanket yes or no but how people feel about um you know going through and perhaps trying to determine what we agree with what the what the chief has said and maybe not spend a lot of time on those items where there is significant if not unanimous agreement um the first set the first um section of the cna report is 45 recommendations perhaps it's possible that 20 of them are things that we all agree on i i don't know i mean that's just a number but it would mean that we would be very efficient in dealing with the ones that either need more discussion or that we don't agree with so that's sort of where we are um we're not really probably here we probably have a lot of time to talk about the actual recommendations unless we do have time in which case we will go on with that but i'm wondering um you know what people's thoughts were on on on that on on that part of the on that part of the plan so that we can try to try to move forward and be productive with our time well Karen if I may just you know this spreadsheet is really helpful and certainly if if John Muir is already saying agreed and they're in process then do we really need to discuss those items or we can kind of move on from there well i think there is you know i think the concern on Jeff is that obviously this is you know the chief's opinion and certainly we value the chief's opinion be in the at the end of the day the charge of our committee is to is to review and make recommendations on the cna report so for the three of us on and which is why we have all of you here we need to be able to feel that when when you know item number one the bpd responses agree um and or if there's a next step that we agree with that next step um or that we think it's a higher priority than perhaps john thinks it is or if there is something that says um that it is done and there are a few of them not not a lot but there are a few it's a long spreadsheet maybe you haven't seen i mean i can tell you like on line 55 is one that says done well you know do we agree how do we know that that's done and is it done in a way that we feel is comprehensive or do we want further information on on that so that we in our mind going forward can say to our council colleagues yeah that that item is done so i think we're there's you know there's some nuances here but certainly if we agree you know if we agree with some of these then yes i i i mean personally my thought is if we agree then yeah we don't need to spend half an hour discussing it if we're all in agreement yes yeah and i think one of the things to add to not just agreeing or disagreeing but you know jeff last time you pointed out the priority column that cna provided so also agreeing or disagreeing with the prioritization and kind of working maybe under the understanding of if it's if we are putting it as a priority that that's something that gets done in 2022 as opposed to in 2023 or 24 so that maybe we've got some more categorization of timelines for priorities one thing that i haven't i don't know and maybe someone else can can figure this out does someone know on on on the matrix on column f does anyone know what that means qw 123 no all right so we need to find so we need to find out what that needs i have no idea what that i i i realize now i should have asked asked him what that means um uh so for the from the perspective of the police commissioners um or um i believe there is so so tell me i believe there is a representative from the vermont racial justice alliance and i'm not sure who that is is that isaac hello karen it is i apologize for my camera being off i'm a little tied up right now but i'm following okay no worries no worries welcome we're glad to have you um uh you know and i realize that we sort of sprung this on you the spreadsheet um if anyone else has any impressions of of it or how you feel about it or um concerns or whatever we'd like to hear them hi this is mila grants i do have some concerns about um column c of the response from the department where they don't agree and do have some items that are marked as done which um i don't believe to be done there are some things that are kind of in process but i don't think they should be marked as done so i don't know if you want to go through each one of those that isn't agree or i'm not sure how you'd want to proceed on that well i guess that's i guess that's part of the question milo is that you know i mean like for example i mean i uh if you look at you know line six i mean that is something that they agree with um and um you know obviously you know we have as a as a as a committee we need to be able to say yeah we agree too um and then how to prioritize that um now some of these are um you know some of these have been noted are um bargain items um but in some way we've got to be able to prioritize them um and we as a we as a committee um with your your valuable input in those of the other members of the working group need to come up with um a roadmap for what we feel are the highest priority items so the question is how we go about doing that and that's part of the conversation that we're having tonight and as far as things that say done um you know not speaking for all members of the committee but i think that was certainly a concern for us was you know and there aren't that many of them so you know i'll just use one it which is the one that's on line 55 this one is a discussion of very impartial policing deescalation procedural justice and implicit bias should be required should should should all be required trainings and these principles should be integrated across all training courses well you know in the opinion of the bpd response that is done well i think probably there are some of us that would feel that um that is never done it is always ongoing and what is what are the required trainings what is the curriculum um and do we want to see that do we want to know what that is and so that's i don't know that's it that's one example on the other one was use of force training required by the state of vermont and delivered by bpd should be formalized with the bpd readily able to demonstrate how the required four hours are spent well okay that is done well we don't know what that is we just know that in their opinion it's done i'm not sure that everyone would agree with that i don't i don't know well um hi it's commissioner grant again i certainly don't agree with that i feel that there's a lot of details that still need to be provided um and plus there's the note about the quote unquote apparent miscommunication um regarding information that wasn't transmitted i'm not fully i'm not really sure what he's saying there but we do know that there were a number of incidents instances where there is saying that information was available but somehow didn't make it to cna so we do need further clarification so i would say um 1.42.5 is not done 1.42.7 is not done there definitely needs to be clarification and information and that repeatedly is is something where we keep hitting the wall um so we need to know what was happening in the past and what's going to be happening in the future and we need specifics and then 1.42.3 it says consider but that shouldn't be considered that should be an agree that's that has to be on the table to be be worked with um within the training plan either at the academy or um additional training um within the department well and that's so that's a very good example that that's you know i mean that is this is the bpd response is to consider um our role is to be able to go back to the council and to the public at a meeting and say you know this is our these are these you know these are our priorities um we i mean this is their response that doesn't mean that just means that's all it means that's their response um right yeah go ahead yeah my apologies i just want to make sure that it's it's being looked upon as something that we expect to be worked on or to provide the information that they claim was not transmitted to cna so is that information actually there and if it is great let's take a look at it and then we have a chance to take a look at it we can determine if it's something that um what additional things may need to be be done but the fact that we don't know because we don't have the information it continues to be a very big issue yeah i mean i think the i think that 1.42.3 may very well be a very good example that you know they're um that they should ensure the quality of their implicit bias training courses aligned with best practices well okay we need to know what it you're right that's a very we need to know what is their what are their training courses um and if they weren't for whatever reason delivered to cna which you know again that you're more familiar with that than i am um then yeah let's see it now so that would be that would be in a separate category of yes we consider this to be a significant priority we want this done um in the first half of 2022 and um we delegate for example we could three of us could say we delegate to the police commission that you will get that information and we're asking you to supply it um that would be a response on doesn't have to be i'm just saying that could be our response um and then it would be up to our committee to follow through on that and make sure that um whatever we whatever our directive is is that the department is supplying you with that information but i don't but you know i mean from and again it's just my personal opinion i do think that this matrix is helpful on it will it may very well make our time more efficient whether we use column columns abc or ab and make up our own response on you know i think there is something to be gained from from this uh from this from this this this spreadsheet i think but again i'm part of them part of the point of the meeting was to find out how other people feel because we've all got to be working on this together and if people don't agree with that then we need to come up with a different plan well i certainly um we'll say that i agree with what you're saying and i think that it is a benefit to know kind of the mindset of the department in terms of what they consider their priorities to be um certainly with the police commission when it comes to discussing um the complaints process um use of force uh mental health and other things like that uh we're not always on the same page so i think to have a response from the committee to say we agree with the department's response or we disagree with the department's response and feel that um like a lot of these can be put in certain categories like there's a number of things that deal with the overall complaint process which is something that the police commission has been working on extensively uh changing um the complaint process um doing more with regards to oversight so there's a number of these that can kind of fall into one category and i think they should all be um something that is has to be worked on um and shouldn't be like there's some things that say partially agree or some be consider um they all need to be from our standpoint that we agree that they're important and need to be acted upon uh chief we're just talking about your spreadsheet um thank you thank you so much for supplying this to us and we're trying to figure out how you know how to use that going forward how that can be helpful um and we're just trying to get a feel from the other members of the working group how we might be able to um to use the uh you know the work that you've already started um i think there is you know perhaps a desire to use part of this um to see you know that it is helpful in knowing where you are with some of these things in terms of what your response is but also to see what our response would be as well and then of course prioritizing you know what is you know it's hard but what is most important what is not as important i mean there's very various gradations of the word important um one thing that um i don't think any of us know and maybe you could explain is in column f you've got q w one two three no can you explain to us what that means sure and uh i apologize for being late i was at a crime scene um yes uh that column is uh quick win and then priority one or two or three or not a priority because uh we we don't agree with it um or na because it's it's already been obviated by state level action so uh for example in in looking at ddo three and making uh that change to the language in ddo three that's a quick win um the council enacted that uh and can easily incorporate that language change i'm just looking at one point one point one um and similarly something like uh a uh an amendment to ddo one i'm now looking at one point seven point one um to include the duty of care directly in that section where we where uh use of force is discussed that's a quick win too that's that's that's a one night change in front of the police commission um adding in that language and then saying here we're done with this only this that doesn't mean we're not going to look at ddo one further or do additional you know do additional work on it or other directives but in so far as getting at this very specific and very narrow change quick win we can do that immediately karen if i yeah um yeah so i think one of the things that i'm not sure that we mentioned to you um that came from our meeting was so i guess i know we haven't 100 come to a conclusion yet if we feel good about using this spreadsheet but one of the things that we talked about last meeting was working um asynchronously so i think something potentially like having a column per person and then um using maybe the same braiding system that um uh john just used with the quick one one two three and no um and then seeing where there's you know some consensus and where there's not consensus and then talking through those um so that we're not so that not everybody has to give their verbal opinion um for each item which could take a while um as we've discovered and then yes we all we all are blessed with the ability to speak um and and and can do it and have shown that we can do it i agree with you um i think that's yeah that's great that that would be that would be a great idea i think if um if we each have our own column um and then maybe maybe the way to do this would be to you know to to for each meeting would be to i mean obviously that one that has the largest number of um you know of recommendations i think is section one um but you know um now when you had that conversations to rya at the last meeting was there pretty uniform agreement that that would be a plant that that would work for everyone um i want to say yes and anybody can contradict me if that wasn't the case but i think we generally agreed that would be better to have some kind of system like this um and i think sorry in adding to it this is me both confirming the statement and adding another thing to speak to milo's point as i think it'd be very useful if for the ones that said done we either could have a comfort like we could either as a committee say like yes we've seen x amount of documents and feel good enough that it's done or if we feel like it's a time intensive task that we won't be able to do say like oh like you know for this material we recommend that karen durfee looks through it and says that it's done or something along those lines um because i think i guess maybe i don't think i would hope that ultimately all of our goal is to check as much put as many of these into the done box as possible with a certain level prioritization in terms of what's important to us and so i think if we could start to say yeah actually you know this has been verified and is good to go that would be helpful yeah i think that would be i mean you know i still feel like there may very well be a large number of these that are that we can that we can certainly feel comfortable or have some sort of verification to know that yes they are under underway and of course as john has said some of these are um now that i know what qw means um you know it that would make sense i mean if it's a directive um and it's something that goes before the police commission then it would be you know bpd should add add language to assist you know x on if that is something now the question is when you so like for example when you say um i mean just use uh 1.5.1 bpd should add language to assist employees in understanding the choice between the four reporting mechanisms um when you say you agree and that that would be a directive review and you would call that a quick win that doesn't mean it has been done that means that it's a quick win when it gets done so then the question would be of all of these items that you have labeled as a quick win if we agree with that would be would that be something that could be implemented i don't know the next i don't know the next police commission meeting is it really that simple probably not probably not all of them uh there's a quite a few there um but many of them yes i'd have to look through them to know exactly which ones could be done literally between now and not tonight's police commission but the following police commission in february um again the ones that require very small amendments to existing directives could easily be done and the the question then becomes for example i you know this document and the cna report requires recommends rather a complete overhaul of dd 40 now if there were and i don't know that there is in fact i don't think there is but let's say there were a relatively quick win in dd 40 as well then we have to ask ourselves whether it's worth changing uh or a sentence or inserting one note to a document that we're going to radically overhaul in the in the coming months and whether or not living that with that one quick win is worth the effort to to promulgate it and then share it with long officers and make sure officers know it even while we're working on a full-scale replacement that might not be worthwhile for something like dd a one where there is where there is not a lot of discussion about a radical overhaul of the entirety of it yet changing that line to take what is already existing in our use of force policy that is a duty to intervene a duty of care and saying instead that we want to include that in the language in dd a one that discusses use of force that is a quick win it literally i could do that tonight and present it to the police commission actually that one i could probably do tonight if you would not be offended if i started you know just not paying attention to this meeting um i'd be able to type that up and get that ready but for next the the next police commission meeting yes that would be very easy for us to do something that small so some of these are that small others i don't know exactly i'd have to look through all of them again um i've been working on this for quite some time so i'm not you know where we are and and i have much more material on the other sections as well uh it's just not it hadn't been yet shared with the mayor the mayor has seen this but he he did not go through it he doesn't agree with all of it uh you know these there's there's room for discussion on all of these things but the part that i was going to share uh i wanted to make certain that part was a little bit more reviewed as it were but i've been working on the whole thing for quite some time so you're talking about i'm sorry you're so you're talking about um sections one two and three are the ones that that's what we're seeing affirmative and correct yeah um so it seems as though as long as we are we are in agreement as a committee that on on the ones that are labeled as a quick win that those should be ones that those are those are ones that could be done um that as you say are are more directive on the ones that you know this came on before you came on john was um some of the things that you had said consider um are things that you know others may feel are are important are very important and those are the ones that we would probably spend the majority of our time having a conversation about um you know uh the ones that we might not necessarily agree with you um uh and then the issue of the ones that you had said that are na those mostly are ones that are there's a statewide policy on them so there's nothing so what you're what you're saying is that there is we we we can't do anything about them that's correct there's a statewide policy on use of force it largely follows the use of force policy that we wrote together um first with the committee to review policing practices starting in the fall of 2019 and then working through February of 2020 and then very quickly doubled down on the work that had already been done in June of 2020 in the wake of George Floyd's murder to uh finalize and draft and then promulgate with the police commission's approval a new use of force policy that summer um and that use of force policy was by far the most progressive uh in the state it had all the components of it can't wait plus um i was actually really proud of of working on that and helping to promulgate that policy the state essentially took it they took huge portions of it word for word and cut and basted it into a statewide policy that is now mandatory for everyone in the state so that obviated ours through ours to the side and now those these recommendations are have you know uh the statewide policy supersedes however um there are places where you know where there are other places that say they're consider or na um that are a little different able training for example in 1.6.2 um you know able training is i think able training is hype i don't think it's really useful training but i do think that we can look into its availability and and determine whether or not it's something that uh you know that if for example this body or or another body wants to vet that training or vet vendors of it or or people who who put it together um i think generally what you need there is not the training but the very strong policy which we now have and the state policy has as well of a duty to intervene and a duty of care um and and those were things chief morrison promulgated that duty to intervene before we even got to the use of force in her one of her last i mean one of the last things she did before she left very early june 2020 um so that's the kind of thing that you know that's an example that just happens to be on the screen in front of me of an example of a consider or or not well that's actually you know we we had because it's early because it's early on in the report we had actually noted that one because it was one of the first ones we we came across that was yellow so we we had actually mentioned that as well um so um you know without belaboring it um it appears as though um it appears as though people are in agreement that um adding columns perhaps after after column b that are each person's response on and we go from there we see how many people agree how many disagree um what additional questions people want to be want to ask um if something says done and we have additional questions to be able to understand how that has been done or whether in our opinion we think it's been done um it sounds like since since no one is disagreeing that that would be a good use of our time a good use of us being able to get through this report and really get into the recommendations that are really important as as opposed to all of them that are important but in being able to prioritize um for the department what we feel needs to be done say in the first six months what needs to be done in the first year and what we feel is something that can be done in the first two years um or something along those lines um any other any other thoughts I mean that was really the point of this meeting was to try to flesh out how we move forward on and want to do this in a way that everyone feels like this is working um so that's that's sort of where we're at uh Karen I I agree that that makes sense to put another column in to get all of our input right here a couple of questions for chief mirad um if I mean if this is more or less fully implemented over time I imagine it's going to have some impact on administrative staffing and there's a lot of record keeping and follow-up and training it could add cost or overhead costs I would imagine um and are there any unintended consequences that we might think about one that kind of jumps out at me is um where is it again it's um disciplinary records to keep them maintained for longer periods you know is that is that customary in in Vermont or other departments in other towns and cities do the same thing or would you lose officers I mean are there some things in here that or be detrimental to keeping the staffing up I guess is question one of the questions I have I think they're I think they're certain that's a great question uh Jeff thank you very much for it I think there's certainly things in here that could affect officers and sort of how they think I think there's certainly things that are bargainable bargainable is is a note in a couple of the uh the questions an issue like you're speaking about the contract actually delineates how long documents can be held when it comes to personnel records um so that absolutely would have to be bargainable uh other issues with regard to sort of unintended consequence or or ancillary uh costs yeah a lot of those it's it's difficult to to determine what those are I guess when it comes down to it if they're um for the most part if we can if we can prefigure it and and make a determination about what the cost might be that it's not so much unattended anymore it's it's very much we know that we're getting into it once we actually decide to do x or y it's going to cost us a or b um so there are some things here that are going to have costs associated with them some of it is administrative costs and just the opportunity costs of my limited administrative staff some of it is uh actual physical costs with regard to systems that are being requested um there are trainings that want that are to be implemented uh and of course you know all of those things we are working with essentially zero sums as far as how much training time is available or or how much budget we have for that training so those kinds of things do ripple out and and as as counselor paul essentially stated you know all of this is important uh you just have to figure out which parts of it are are important to do i mean every when everything's a priority nothing is and so that was at least a component of what i was doing with those qw's and the rankings um but i hadn't actually drilled into i was doing it more along the lines of what i feel is important to dedicate time and resource to i wasn't doing the math that you're talking about jeff which is an additional layer that should be done but i haven't done it it's helpful thanks um let's go ahead jane thank you um yeah i just i just wanted to um appreciate openly the matrix being created because when i first saw that i thought that that was a very helpful map for us and um definitely appreciate the clarification as to like where we are in that progress um yeah i i think i think every like every piece should have input from like every part so like kind of like the committee um police commissioners like i think even just like jeff and like you know what i mean like i think that that is really important and i am like happy that we're going to go through that i guess my only question is logistically are we trying to do that like are we trying to have that already done before the next meeting and that that way we can look at the matrix together and see kind of like what all the input is or are we putting that in all at the same time for the next meeting so just just curious as to what the plan is there um well i'm not sure that we have a plan um for it we sort of need to determine that i i'm not sure um milo i see your hand up read i see yours i don't know if either of you have them up to speak or if you if you do jump in um but as far as the answer to your question jane i mean i think we uh you know we we probably the best way to do this would if we if we feel that we can do it would be to set up a you know just to set up a google doc and to start working on this and see if between now for example if we're going to have a meeting on on tuesday next week can we between now and sunday night each commit that we're going to go through the first section there are 40 some odd um uh recommendations i mean i think it's doable if we can do that and you know obviously if all well however many there are of us agree and feel that feel comfortable with it um you know it's just not an efficient use of our time to go and you know then debate it because we're basically debating with ourselves um was there any um i mean does that seem does that seem reasonable do you think we can do that i think that's i think that's great i just want to flag that this is the the type of document we're talking about like an active live document i haven't confronted that in terms of the open meetings law so that would be just something that if you guys could give me at least till tomorrow to like dig into and do some research just i mean it by all means i think it sounds great as an action plan but i just want to make sure that you know the lawyer keeps us in line so i was just i was just gonna say that i always have a lawyer keeping us in line reeling us in when we come up with a great idea jared if it comes down i'm the fun killer sometimes but no hopefully it'll all work out it i think that helps out we could have the we could have a view only version if that helps with the open meeting i don't know if it will um to have a view only version available to the public at any time yeah i mean even if even if we need to i i suppose what we could do is we could all do it separately and submit them to you on monday you go and put them into a spreadsheet where we're all listed that way we're not working off each other in any way we're just doing it ourselves and and actually there might be some advantage to that you know if we just do it ourselves then we're not sitting you're saying well you know what jeff has a really good idea there i think i agree with him or you know i don't agree with sarah's idea but i don't know i agree with her on this on this you know i mean i think maybe there is some i don't know maybe there's some advantage that might be i would i would just say we should just do that that sounds fine um it would be more work before we just say that we do it because somebody has to that's true i mean i mean i think it's okay i'm just not sure who's volunteering for that right in other words whoever goes first we're all going to be working off of that person it's um so whatever you think i mean you'll let us know yes i'll i'll definitely dig into that first thing you know maybe even tonight when we get off the meeting but hopefully by tomorrow i'll have more of a concrete answer as to how we could navigate that as a live google doc and for the first one maybe we can plan on just having our own and then if we can do it in one spreadsheet next time we can do that yeah i mean i'm happy to i can literally just take my own copy and make column and start going through them i mean i have no problem doing that it but you are right it definitely there is a a certain amount more work involved but maybe that's actually not a bad thing um because it's apparent to clarify if we're all just doing it or is is the only thing we're rating is the quick win one two or three are we just prioritizing is that the well i think we can i mean we can do it one of you know i mean like for example the yeah it would seem as though we have to we'd have i mean obviously to some degree we're working it off of you know i think actually maybe it was meal that said this that you know it is helpful to know the bpd response um you know and to know what john feels particularly our quick wins i mean if we can implement some of this without a lot of pain um and time that that's great um so you know but as far as the others i mean i'm not like for example i mean here's the first one the 1.3.1 on john you've ranked that as a one so i'm assuming one is high priority as opposed to two or three one is the highest yeah you're you're um that is correct great okay so um so then the question is a do we agree on do we feel that you know like for example that one says partially agree do we fully agree um or do we need more information so you put that in your the little box and then you can prioritize it on a scale of i mean i i personally could not i don't think that i can disagree with john over what is or isn't a quick win because i don't know what a quick win is i mean i i wouldn't know how difficult something is to implement um so i've got you know i mean that that's for me there would be no quick wins there would be one two or three and if one happens to be a quick win well great but i wouldn't know to be able to put that down but karen if i may i think if we're going to use one two and three as our rankings which i think we should and a quick win would be a one i guess because that's it's an easy one to do and and the chief here has already said yeah we're going to do it so that's already a one we're we're we're going to really find out where the differences are if chief here has put it into three and we all say it's a one and we've got some discussion to have here um but i think that's probably could get us to a pretty quick idea of where we differ and where we the real discussion has to happen if we feel it's a real priority and the department doesn't i think we could still sorry if i can jump in turn my camera for just a second i think i think we could still for you every quick win might be a one if i think for some people maybe wouldn't be maybe they're just like that this isn't as important to me to happen so we could have people right use whatever criteria they have intrinsically to them to create one two or three and if for you that means everything that's a quick win is a one great but i think to Karen's point if we have you know really high things that are quick wins those are the fastest to prioritize but maybe we do want to prioritize and think they're not quick wins at all despite the fact that they're not quick wins so i mean there aren't that many you know if you just take section one and that's all i'm doing there's 40 whatever 42 43 47 recommendations only eight of them or nine are quick wins i mean i i scanned quickly i could have missed one but i mean we're not talking dozens so you know i mean we can all have our own opinion about that but and i agree with you sir i i mean just because something is a quick win means that it can get done doesn't necessarily mean that we think it's a major priority however if if we if it can get done then then why not do it on okay but i mean i don't know that that necessarily needs as a one so we could probably you know with the beauty of spreadsheets you know we can we can probably put the not that we should because they're in order but those that are quick wins um you know are probably things that are pretty straightforward on one thing that there are a couple of things that are that are listed as quick wins but that you don't have as agree so i think that's rather interesting um so i guess those are things that are going to require a little bit more either explanation or there may be people that have questions on them as to exactly it seems like that doesn't really jive if something is a a quick win it can be implemented i guess what that means is that if it's a quick win and it can be implemented doesn't necessarily mean that you agree with it but you could do it quickly sorry i think the only one that the only one that applies to has to do with bias training that's being delivered by our reib and so once that begins um i i think it's a quick win because it's starting it's being done for the city right now and for our civilian employees already it'll be done for our sworn employees i'm not certain exactly when it's due to start but it's supposed to at some point certainly as i was doing this i was my expectation it would actually have started for the sworn employees already um and so to the extent that it was a quick win it was because it was happening it was right it was going to occur to the extent that uh it is that you know talking about it i i do consider it a consider i don't think implicit bias training has been shown to there are a lot of questions about its efficacy um and so to the extent that components of what they were describing as implicit bias training are embedded in the reib training quick win about to happen um imminently about to happen uh it with regard to the efficacy of spending time on that and training money on on that uh specifically that's what it meant by consider for me not because the topic is unimportant it's tremendously important but that particular mode of delivery that particular sort of niche of it even we invited not we the police commission invited several people to talk to us and people who are experts in this topic admit themselves that there are a lot of questions about what that training does or doesn't deliver yes that's very true um and that is why these topics need a deep dive um as someone going back to when i was on the committee for policing policies and on police commission trying to get information um and and not being able to has has been a really huge issue so um i look forward uh to seeing what the reib training is um make what it's going to include um and and how um but i also don't want to look at it as a one done because i think we have a lot of really serious issues um with regards to bias and the quote unquote term cultural competency which is getting to be a little bit overused right what does it really mean we we really need to talk into in specifics with regards to our community so um and just making sure that um everyone has has gotten it um because we've had issues with that like who has gotten it we we have questions about is there documentation that shows that or doesn't show that so um definitely i think it needs a more deeper dive um and maybe just providing information providing information that we've asked for um that we didn't receive i i noticed chief that you had some um indications that there was a failure by the project coordinator to transmit um information and i was wondering if you could clarify what that means because that's listed in a number of areas especially where it says done can you give me it can you give us an example milo uh 1.42.5 line 55 okay there were a number of instances of of uh my staff the lieutenant of administration at the time was instructed to provide everything we had with regard to training and i think some of those emails were too large to uh be opened and there uh ultimately it wasn't transmitted all the way um when we had direct relation when we had direct contact with the uh the firm with cna we ended up by making a lot of effort to figure out how to get that information to them not through email and as a result did uh i can't remember i think there's an ftp that was ultimately set up but initially there were some huge we're talking multiple gigabyte uh email not not a single email but large large uh swaths of information sent and that didn't make it to uh there were there were gaps in how that was sent from us to the middle to the uh to cna but um you know that material is we have a very extensive documentation of the training that has been done and who's done it i like to jump in sure hayisha thanks for thanks for joining us thank you um a couple things one um anti-racism training is not implicit bias training but also you can't out train racism you just can't do it um you have to start focusing on systems and policies in order to make the changes that we need to see happen um secondly we never received any documentations on training email or otherwise so i just want to be clear about that so if you have that when we get to that whatever it is that you do have that either it did or didn't know regardless of whether or not it got to cna isn't really the point the point is we would like to when that time comes if the majority of us want to see that we hope that you would then produce that material absolutely okay um all right well uh i think the um it seems as though we're sort of on the same page here as far as going through this report we will try so the other the other question is um so i have not really sure how i'm going to deal with this the um uh the um the training that you know so taisha you know when when there was um there was supposed to i think actually you and i may have had this conversation so i had signed up for a training on a wednesday because i knew that these meetings were on tuesday then that got changed and i was sort of brought into a training on a tuesday um i have a feeling that those i i don't remember off the top of my head but i think a lot of those are in february and i don't want to miss them and not go i can't really be at both meetings at the same time so i'm i'm i'm tempted to try to figure out a way to get into a different training even if it means that i need to do it during the day i just don't know if at this point in the in the training that's something that reib would allow i think that we can i know we can accommodate you somehow some way we do have a a leadership training um with department heads that you can possibly join but that's through during the day um i will figure something out and i will circle back with okay all right that would be wonderful because i'd like to you know it seems as though we're sort of on a roll here with tuesday nights um so the question is whether or not um do the members of the working group and and others feel that um tuesdays for the month of february are going to work for people i know jeff there was one that you thought we're getting we're getting close to um we're getting close to uh the middle of february i would imagine there'll be some days that you are not going to be available um and i know there was one in january prop must have been the one that we missed that um you weren't able to make um i have a couple of conflicts with development review board hearings coming up in other towns that's the but if it's if we're done by 7 30 like i'm going to top on another call right now because it's already ongoing but 7 30 if we're done by 7 30 i'm i'm pretty good yeah okay now what about the police commission meetings for the month of february do you know when those meetings are uh yeah our next meeting i believe is 22nd of february um i've already penciled in for 6 p.m but um with this much notice i can we can we can push that start start time a little later is it um is that a tuesday correct okay um or we could you know we can we originally had thought of starting these meetings earlier um i mean i'm happy to do that i know jane probably would be happy to do that um i don't know if jeff that would help your schedule by having them earlier um jared others if um as well isak if you know if you have an opinion one way or the other would welcome your input as well earlier certainly with uh a lot of what you said karen and i think having the time to really go through it and creating our own spreadsheet would definitely help i know uh i haven't had the time to really dissect it fully but um i'm i'm on board i'm that that's great on isak do you have a do you have a do you have a preference where you know we tried to do we're trying to do these on a you know on a weekly basis to get through the report um effectively it we were thinking uh Tuesday seemed to work for everyone um the question would be what time to start whether or not people are available at say 5 30 if that's not too early for people that then puts us um particularly for police commission meetings that would probably put us from say 5 15 or say 5 30 to 7 30 if we thought we could do that um is that too early for anyone and i think i think uh that this this whole process is moving at a rapid pace it seems that they have uh sorry that's my little psychic in the back that's okay very cute it's moving at a fast pace so i mean last time we talked that they said they only voted on a number of recommendations and you know looking at the spreadsheet looks like they they have definitely voted on a lot so i mean 5 30 will work for me but if you just send folks a few dates and time because i'm sure we can all come together it's a small group so shouldn't be challenging okay so um so we'll we'll go with milo is that going to work for you doing this at say 5 30 yes thank you okay so um so just just so we're all on the same page um uh the the matrix will be you know the matrix is the matrix as it is each person member of the working group will go through the recommendations and come up with their own column of on you know any any particular notes whether they um uh i guess there would also be prioritizing and we would use just one two and three we'll try to make this as simple as we can what we feel is a priority and then if there are additional questions or concerns or you know again if it is just simply yeah i agree and this is a priority too for me um that's sort of where we're going i i hope that i hope we're all on the same page with what we're what our what our assignment is um and just so we're also clear for each week we're only talking about one section so i think one section is going to be plenty of work yes it is um so just one section per week and we'll hope to try on the whatever it is the second of uh i think it's the second of february would be next tuesday um to do section one and then we'll see um jibu uh it's it's not the first start oh sorry okay the first the first of february um god are we already through january thank god um uh yes so we will we'll we'll plan to meet on the first of february um at five thirty um Jared or thomas will send us information so if we can if we can if we can get the um uh the i don't know how if you do this the same way as they do for council and board of finance meetings if you can send the members that are going to be here the just click to join so the um and this would be all the people that are on this call as well as um uh i did send an email included in that email Karen Durfee um she may very well have a conflict tonight but it probably be best to get her to include her as well and i don't think there's anyone that we're missing um before we before we move on and just uh get closer to adjourning i just wanted to make sure we do have one member of the public if there was anything read that you wanted to offer um we we'd love to hear from you if you if you if you do okay um all right but thank you thank you so much for joining us we're always happy to have members of the public um come to our meetings um so uh unless there is any objection we'll adjourn the meeting at seven um i'm sorry go ahead my apologies um i have uh one more question for the chief i was wondering um under column e with next steps there are a number of items that have been tagged as um being bargainable so with regards to the contract review have you tagged everything that is going to fall under that category i'm sorry where in what do you mean everything so in terms of all of these um recommendations has everything related to the contract been tagged as bargainable do you mean has every single one that could potentially have bargaining implications been tagged that way yes um no no i i'm the ones that i've noted are clearly bargainable and and generally that indicates a an impediment to immediately enacting it um but uh i i think there's plenty there that probably uh again my my approach to the second parts of this are piecemeal this was a generally internal document and it wasn't i i did share it and i knew that it was going to be shared tonight but it's been something that's been worked on internally for quite some time um i think there is a you know there there are many that probably do have bargainable or contract negotiations uh excuse me implications um that aren't marked as such here but will uh just to you know look through randomly and see if there's anything there um there's somewhere it says adding to the cba renegotiation specifically there's somewhere it's bargainable but that's not necessarily a note um there's some that don't say bargainable but probably do have uh cba implications um i don't see any off the top of my head but like in oh well i mean most of section seven most of much of section seven is going to have bargainable implications and that's not marked out yet it i have marked some of those things um and so uh they're you know they're definitely many more that may have it um and uh yeah uh and and to the extent too that this was internal and not external i would like to to note the the phrasing difference in 1.42.5 versus 1.42.7 um and uh one was rephrased in a way that was meant for external and one was internal uh 0.7 1.42.7 is is a more accurate phrasing of what happened with regard to uh sending the training materials um i apologize for that uh the but in so far as the bargainable question i think i mean there's there's a lot in here that's ultimately going to have bargaining implications okay and so when do the contract negotiations start again uh the contract is done is up in summer in this summer so summer of 2022 um and i don't know when it will exactly start uh before then if we hope because we would want when reviewing these um recommendations we will want to have a specific list maintained regarding these items that have to be discussed uh during the negotiations so um is it the city's attorney's office who determines when those negotiations start it's both the city attorney's office and the um and the union itself they negotiate for the beginning of the negotiations yeah okay so it's the and the administration as well i mean it's uh between the department the and the administration and yeah so it's but as john did point out it the contract expires the summer and so i think that we're in the process of starting to get the ball rolling on that okay so my concern would be um that all parties are aware of the recommendations that would be that could affect the contract negotiations so we just need as part of this process to make sure that these are indicated so that they're they're not missed so for example one of the things that was brought up earlier was um maintaining uh disciplinary records for longer period of time that is something that is definitely being looked at nationally um we know that bad cops move around like bad priests in our country and burlington shouldn't be part of that um if we can help it so we definitely want you know that would be a positive step to show that hey this is something that's going to make our department better um and we want to make sure that and the other items that would be affected i just get i just have a deep concern that it would somehow be overlooked so we definitely want to make sure that all the parties are available of the various recommendations that need to be discussed during the contract negotiations thank you okay um zariah or jane did you have any before we before we sign off um did you have anything else to add no um jane anything that you wanted to add i'm i'm okay for right now i think everything's pretty straightforward going going into the next week okay jared anything nope i i'll just alert everybody i just double checked my schedule and i do see that i have a tax abatement i'm meeting on one of the tuesdays but someone if it's not myself someone from our office will be here to support so um i'll work that out okay um um milo and jubu just for your just for your knowledge and as well for isek um there are there were a couple of um uh um during the month of january obviously this is not this is in the past but going forward there were a couple of dates that jeff had come to me and said you know listen i cannot be at the meeting on this day but i will have another member of the marketplace commission that i will that i will dial in and make sure that they are up to speed that they will attend in my place um although saraya jane and i cannot do that because we're the members of the committee um if there are meetings that you are unable to make hopefully not many but if there are you know and you want to have another member of the police commission or an isek's case if you want someone from the rga to be here in your place um the only request that we would have is if you have to miss more than one meeting that the person that replaces you is the same so that we're not seeing different people um just for continuity sake and we realize that we're talking about the months of february and march there are going to be days that may be problematic um if they are we totally get it um just try to replace yourself with the same person and if you can just let us know that'd be great go ahead uh yeah i have no problems with months of february um and i will be out of town the first three some march so i'll make sure i have somebody uh in place for that okay great wonderful um all right um so we all have plenty of homework to do between now and the first of february um if there are any questions at all to come up um just let us let us know um probably the best thing to do is just to email me if i don't know the answer i will um i will pose that to jared or to someone else it's best if you not email james rya and i together just because we shouldn't be trying to answer these questions because then it becomes a dialogue and is a violation of the open meeting law um with that uh i know two of you have got a police commission meeting to go to um actually you and the chief um enjoy the rest of your evening um without objection will adjourn the meeting at 7 24 um have a uh have a good week everyone thank you good night thank you have a great night thanks you too