 Good afternoon everyone, and welcome to Entrepreneur India's Resilient Series. During this tough period, while investors have become more observant about the ongoing trends, founders have looked for ways to increase their cash runway, while some truncated their expenses, others pivoted their businesses to keep the cash flow and earn investors confidence during the pandemic. These unprecedented times, despite its cruel nature, has made the bond between investors and founders stronger, or so would we believe. So, today we are going to talk about just that. I'm Saurav Kumar, editor of Special Projects Entrepreneur India, the moderator for this session. I'll quickly lay down the ground rule for our attendees. The discussion will go on for 30 minutes followed by a 15 minute Q&A session. If you have any questions during the course of the discussion, you can post them through the Q&A or comment option. Mention in your question if it's directed towards any specific panelists and we'll take them up post the discussion. Let me now introduce our panelists for the day. We have with us today Mr. T.C. Minakshi Shundaram, founder and managing director of Chirate Ventures, India Advisors. Mr. Rishabh Sanghvi, co-founder and CTO Railroad 5, Mr. Praveen Agarwal, co-founder and CEO of Better Places. Welcome everyone. So, you know to start with T.C.M, I'll come to you first in a nutshell, if you can please tell us that. I think it was calling me a bit earlier, but I was on a call with entrepreneur India because T.C.M. linked for me and what N.D. Winker went with it. No, no, I'm there. Okay, so we'll just continue. So T.C.M. I'll just come to you. So in a nutshell, if you can please tell us that how has been the last six odd months as an investor? There have been studies that more than 50% of the startups will close down, etc. So what was going through your mind as an investor? What were the emotions, the ups and downs, if you can just briefly tell us. You know, interesting question. To look back, I think the first four to eight weeks was a time of focusing on saying that how to extend the runway for the companies which are burning capital, right? And that was the most important thing and entrepreneurs are obviously by DNA optimistic, right? And so to that extent, they, and they were people who drive at 320 kilometers, right? 200 miles per hour. And that's why they are growing as fast compared to when the economy was growing much slower. So it took, I think one or two weeks for them to realize saying that this is actually here for longer impact, right? COVID has changed. Initially, I think they were saying that, okay, I will run faster. I'll continue to run faster. And that is at a time when what I would say is the rest of the world had stopped and going in reverse, right? That means, you know, the effort that is involved to do that and that was not even necessary. So once they realized it, I think saying that this is here for long, I think pretty much everyone moved into, you know, managing the burn. And it was an intense period between, I think, investors and entrepreneurs, it was brutal on them, I should say. And I remember it's easy, right? We can be a lot more objective because we are not in the firing line, right? In terms of going out and telling employees saying that, look, we cannot continue, right? Or saying what, going through those. So it's not easiest of things, but it was like, I can tell you saying that this is like learning by the fire, right? They went through the firewall. But the good thing is once that got over and we are tech VC, so to that extent, one of the important things all entrepreneurs realized is that tech is actually a COVID, COVID is actually a tech tailwind event for the tech companies. So that has actually helped them start thinking about how they can move things more and more online, launch new products, new offerings, new channels, which is phenomenal actually. So after the first six, eight weeks of looking at the burn, reducing it, which was brutal, their optimism came back and then started saying that, okay, now how do we grow? And I can tell you saying that our portfolio, which in March had a $1 billion revenue run rate collectively by September is already back at and above several of them actually are significantly higher than pre-COVID peaks is at and above billion dollar run rate. So which is phenomenal. Yes. And this is at a time when we are talking about economy having contracted 24% in the June quarter and then even in September quarter, it will be closer to 10%. And so that is the resilience of the startup entrepreneurs and management teams. Right, absolutely. And this has been shown by many entrepreneurs in the way they reacted to the opportunity change their businesses. So I'll come to two entrepreneurs that we have here and who were at the receiving end when this all started. So Praveen, I'll come to you first. But TCM very well put it that they're back to where they were pre-COVID almost and things like that. So what was your conversations with the investors when all this started? What was the conversation around? Was it like that the boss do something, change things, or was it okay to come down? Let's take a step back and think about how we are going to move from here. Praveen. First of all, this was perhaps the best experience that one can live with, right? I mean, from a journey perspective, the kind of learnings that we got, we will never get perhaps and hopefully we will never get it. But if you look at in the mid-March, one of our investors will pull his best out of US. He started asking me, what are your plans for next 18 months and COVID is coming? And we were in denial more. Like TCM said that, why should you worry so much? And so many things happened in past like dengue and SARS and other things. Don't worry about it. But every day it was changing. And when the 25th of March came, the world was already upside down with the lockdown in the picture and business going down dramatically. Some parts of the business went down by almost 80% all of a sudden. We had to rethink, right? The good thing happened that we have only one view. The investors have multiple views, right? They talk to 15, 20, 100 of their portfolio companies. They understand not only what's happening in India, but also in US and in China and other things. So we started doing a weekly making almost as a board and with investors and trying to figure out what are they learning from others and what are the things that we should do, right? And the first request was that, okay, let's see that we have a run rate for next 18 months at least assuming that our revenue goes down to zero, right? Even if we have a revenue that only helps us to increase the run rate, but let's assume that the revenue is zero and then what would be the run rate? So we started preparing ourselves for the next 18 months in a way where there is zero revenue. Now the good thing is that the investors said, don't worry much whether whatever we have planned for this financial year, if it's delayed by a year, it's delayed by a year. But if we are there and if we learn from the situation, we will bounce back again. And so that's the situation we were with. So we started cutting down costs and we also got a lot of help from the investors. Again, as I said that they have multiple views which helps us to learn from others. They also started collecting data from different portfolio companies saying what are they doing, what are the different initiatives which are being run and then we learn from each other. For example, we just left one office because anyway, we're not going to work from office for a long time. So we said, let's leave this office and we will save on rent and other things. So there are all those smaller things, bigger things that we started putting together. And then in the month of early June, we started seeing the positive trend for ourselves. And we went back to the investors and said, okay, we do have a run rate for 18 months, but this is the time to grow. This is not time to sit back and wait for things to happen. But this is the time to make things happen. And I have to put my acceleration in place. I have to go from gear two to three to four to five. And this is perhaps the time to raise capital as well for the growth. There were some discussions whether this is the right time to do it or what happens if we fall flat. But I think everybody started backing seeing the results. So the questions were also very helpful so that you don't make a decision like he said, we are optimistic people right but optimism to some extent is good in difficult times, we have to be even more careful. So investors and all of our investors, they started asking those difficult questions, which was actually helping in streamlining the process better. Today, I'm proud to say that we are far better than the pre COVID levels, we are at least 50% higher than that. We have raised capital because new investors also see that there is a potential to grow right because if you can show growth in this time and there is definitely potential to keep growing in the future. So overall if I see I think the investors work more like partners in this game rather than seeing a VC who has given money and looking for a return by hook or by growth. I think that was a very positive thing for us and our experience and I assume that most of the. So no numbers were required to be reject or anything. No, we had to we had done a projection in the January with the growth numbers. And in mid March, I said that I will stay with these numbers, but my investors kept asking me that I should reduce it. Take first quarter off the hook completely and then bring it down to 50% or 40% because them. And then I said that okay COVID is coming and it will go off by this thing there was still views that it's a cycle it will keep coming and going there will be waves. So it should be a little bit more pessimist rather than optimistic. I think we wanted to have more the investors kept pushing us. So which which was the target that you achieved the one that you thought you would do or the one that investor. We are in between right now. Okay, all right, Rishabh I'll come to you Rishabh what was your conversation with TCM during this period. What was TCM telling you. Yes, I mean it really depends on the market that you're in. So for the transportation and travel space COVID led to a high period of uncertainty, both in terms of short term impact on business and long term impact on the micro environment in which we are building right. And we had to take some difficult decisions over the next few quarters how to tactically execute and strategically how to plan for the next one to three years. And luckily we have great investors like TCM on board who guided us through this right. There was no panic at all created because they understood the market and the macro very well. We thought through the tactical steps to increase the runway and conserve cash at this moment which is very important for our market. And second, they TCM helped us think through our short term as well as long term strategies. Again, in space like transportation and travel, it's difficult to predict how long the long term consequences of this will be right. So we also in the board developed a plan B in case there's a prolonged disruption in the market beyond what any of us could imagine right. So it was a great exercise in the boardroom where we got, you know, short term tactical as well as strategic and plan B in place with the guidance of TCM. Just a story on TCM at the disc of sounding corny. It was the investor equivalent of love at first sight for us with TCM right because in our first meeting we got to know that TCM has been a train traveler for 30 years. And we knew it with the right partner because he just got it right like he knew the real consumer problem. So we're lucky to have investors who understand the market and the founders empathize with the founders at this stage. So as I was mentioning, you know, that a lot of landlords, you know, they kept calling their tenants and said that up go job jala gaya or, you know, there is a so we'll cut down your rent. So did you get any such such comfort from your investors? So for us, as I said, because of the uncertainty, we had to take decisions to extend our runway. We did extend our runway. And of course, investors, in terms of our projections of revenue growth, everybody understood right that although we saw green shoots of recovery, nobody knew it's going to be a V shaped or a U shaped recovery. So because of that understanding, you know, the projections in terms of revenues and other growth metrics, obviously, even the marketing expense. And I think it was clear that until you see a sustained, you know, return to something close to normal, it doesn't make sense to kind of kick on with growth at this stage. So we spend the time doing like other things in terms of building products which were there further in our pipeline to kind of expand our market size and a lot of other productive things instead of like growth for us. And I remember a conversation in the call. So obviously, it was a no brainer saying that don't spend on marketing right that's that was very easy. I think where we and they were sitting on pretty much all the money that we gave them. So they didn't have a huge run, you know, burn at that point in time. So I think what we challenge them is look, you are dependent on travel. So two things we asked was one to say that look you had a progressive rollout plan. Can you use this time to be ready to go national in one shot. And you needed actually a lot of this is AI, which means more and more data is important, but data is not available. So in the, in the limited data that you have, how can you go national whenever the markets open up. So literally now they are ready and I can say they are ready that what they would have taken, let's say 12 months plus to be national. Now they are ready whenever the markets open up on travel side to actually go national on day one. Right. So that is something that they use the time. So that is what we were able to use the time and challenge and then save and find innovative solutions on the product front. The second was more interestingly, saying that look, suppose this is going to continue what is your plan B in terms of which other. So you are basically a driven company. So where can this skill be used. Right, in any other market, do you want to look at that. So was this evident across all companies or like obviously talked about today if I but they could be why I'm asking this to you because you know towards the beginning we were hearing a lot of stories that you know investors were not honoring the term sheets and also was that sector specific or was it a knee jerk reaction at the initial phase and then they realize that okay it can be salvaged so what was it going on. So a couple of things. I think from an industry perspective. Now we did actually have an industry group which was exchanging notes and then as to how to guide the entrepreneurs, the ACT which was done by all the VCs together with some VEs also joining. We put out some of the guidelines in terms of even how to manage cost reduction, you know, different ideas and at that time, if you know NDMA had issued a notification so you can't actually let go anybody. Right, without getting notices. So those are all the challenges right. But one of the, I think there was a. There was a lot of I would say half baked information which got interpreted differently. You know that typically of the startups, only about 1015% or 20% are funded by VCs. Right, there are many which are self funded, many which are angel funded friends and family funded. But they do not have that much where with all and run ability to continue giving money more. Right, so when when a lot of newspaper reports came saying that you know 75% of the companies will die from a quantity perspective, is it true potentially. But are they VC funded ones or are they self family, family, friends funded angel funded ones was not identified so everybody said that started with no companies will die. Right. Definitely, COVID has played a role in in some companies deciding not to pursue not to continue. Right, because they don't have the runway. Most VC funded company because I also spoken to others in the ecosystem. Most VC funded companies found ways to extend runway to 12 months and beyond. There are many which are 18 and 24 months also. I don't think they were at the risk of suddenly falling off the cliff. Obviously, some of them were affected much more where revenues possibly straight went to zero and things like that. In some of those cases possibly they had to manage cost better or sometimes they got merged into others. What is very important in every company we have had to have this discussion. It is see many of the entrepreneurs who are in the 20s and 30s have not seen a downturn really even global financial places our startup ecosystem, which is like 15 years old has not seen many of them. Right. So to that extent they have not gone through this to take the tough decisions. Also for entrepreneurs, it is a very lonely journey. Right, you can't even share this with family you can't share this with your management team in terms of all the rest. And so, we had to give them a lot of like as a sounding board. We are also giving confidence saying that look we have seen multiple downturns we have seen how what is a playbook in terms of how to handle it. And sometimes you need to do things in the larger good where some people get affected. Right. And give them the confidence saying that do it like a karma Yogi and not like saying that look you are you have done something wrong. And I should say the management teams also stepped up. There are a few companies in our portfolio where there was zero attrition, but 100% of the organization went through cost reduction. Everybody anywhere from 20% to 50, 75% cost cut, a salary cut was taken by people voluntarily. So I think everybody stepped up hats off to them. And you know that is why they could remain as a cohesive unit and then you know come back and take the market when markets are opening up. So we'll come to you are you are an entrepreneur you're also an investor. You know so you have both the site so you know what what did you read out the situation when these kind of news were coming in as TCM explained that you know it was not the VC back really was it was, you know funded by maybe you know angel family friends which were kind of so what was your reading of the situation. So I think I think the CM has already spoken about most part of it, but if you if you look at the first priority was at least the company sales through the situation and sales through basically means that you at least have a visibility of 12 to 18 months right and then you will see what happens. And the second thing is that now that your business in the current form shape might not be running. So what are the other monetization opportunity or other ways of keep doing something which will add value at a later stage right. So, giving you an example of one of the companies where I have made initial investments is confirmed ticket, which is similar to what Richard does. But at confirmed ticket we said okay trends are close like Richard already explained, there's no revenue coming it's completely shut, but there is a lot of data. Now what are the things that we can do with this data and work with companies that might need to acquire these users and see if there is a partnership that we can develop and make some kind of strategy around it right. So I'm not sitting idle and waiting for things to happen. It was all about making things happen right and every day is about making perhaps more trial and errors rather than waiting right so I always tell my team that taking no risk is the biggest risk right I mean, if you take risk you might fail if you don't take risk you will definitely fail. So here we started thinking about different things same with better place. A lot of things we started working on new products, new solutions. We never thought that some of the solutions that we have done in last six months we would have done if not pandemic. And those are actually becoming or being adopted more than some of other solutions that we have. So this is a time to also learn. It's no time to say that I'm going to have to wait. I think that's the wrong attitude and I'm sure that none of the entrepreneurs, none of the VCs go in that path. Secondly, you said that I have seen my some of my friends who had started some businesses, whether this is brick and mortar, or some of the new take side of the investment where they had started. And for them this was a bigger challenge because they don't see clear horizon in terms of when they would be able to make money, how long it is sustainable. The people that they have they cannot pay salaries they have their own commitments. So this becomes a very difficult journey for them so either they pivot or they go back to what they were doing previously right. So there we have seen otherwise in my circle I have not seen any big negative impact where they had to shut down. One of the areas that we have felt there is definitely some impact is the fintech side, especially in the lending business they had to stop the business because you don't know the NPA situation and you have to pivot then figure out the right way of doing it. So we are in discussion with some of them, how can we partner and create a distribution channel for larger audience. But it's something that we have to learn. Yeah, I mean that's basically what I would like to add. So before I go to the next question I'll again request our attendees if there are questions, keep them coming we'll take them another 5-10 minutes maybe. So Risha I'll come to you so Praveen just talked about pivot and utilizing the downtime to think of what data can be done. So obviously that time you had the comfort of your investor telling you that okay take a step back think about it. But then as in you always at the back of your mind it is there that you have someone's money obviously you are sitting on that money now and know that but obviously you have someone's money and you are answerable to that. So what were the thoughts that you within your organization were you thinking that I should change my strategy or should I pivot or should I look for other avenues? So I think what TCM alluded to earlier is that we are very early in our journey and we were sitting on most of the cash we raised anyway so for us you know the burn rate was anyway very low so that pressure wasn't there. For us it was more about I mean firstly just on a separate note the first thought that came in our mind was a humanitarian crisis right the first few weeks we thought of it that way. It was crucial to focus on the health and safety of our employees that was the first thing that we did before any of these other thoughts came in our head. So in that line like there were no layoffs at Raylofi we started doing drills before the lockdown we were well prepared on the IT process and communications front right so we've also assisted some of our team members medically in the pandemic. But coming back to your point there was really no panic in our minds because for us we were very early on in our journey and we were sitting on most of the capital as such. We just wanted to use the time more productively and with our team we wanted to make sure that one efficiency doesn't go down in work from home. And everybody knows it's bound even it can happen if you don't have the right set of team members or the right culturally the right hires right and second was that the communication the coordination with the team is good. So we just put that in place and we of course came up with a plan being case this is longer or we had you know discussions on extending runway and cash but yeah I don't think we really panic on that stage. He said I'll come to you know how did the investors reacted to pivots. I know a lot of companies did pivot but that was not the original plan for a lot of them but they did to survive the period. So how would investors looking at it. Yeah so in our portfolio nobody did a pivot but they added extra lines. So there's a company which is the B2B you know in the packaging solutions and they looked at the opportunity of all medical supplies that are required BP requirements. They actually started an additional line on BP, which this year is likely to be 150 to 100 crores of business for them. Right. So that was opportunistically they were able to jump into it because their core competency was able to find suppliers qualify them and also find buyers right and then so create a marketplace for them. I think, but lately we are looking at companies which raised seed and then said that they pivoted. And I think the important question there that I try to get into is that obviously you know pivoting is a very pragmatic approach there's no question about it. I also try to understand what went what was going in their mind in terms of making the pivot and why they felt that the previous thought process eventually you know pandemic will go. It's not in six months maybe nine months or 12 months. So what made them to make a pivot which is completely abandoned the previous one and do something completely new. That is more assessment of the team than assessment of the previous idea for me to understand that. But you know pandemic did not even know this is one stage, but actually there is a lot more that happened because of the pandemic supply chains got disrupted significantly. So in some of our companies which had let's say things coming from China, we got an inkling about this problem much earlier because you know they were China was shut down for holiday season for the Chinese New Year after that supplies did not start immediately. So, in February, we started looking at some of the companies saying that look how much inventory you have if you continue to grow then how are you going to manage this. Those were actually and how to build resilience in the supply chain side, which many people did not think you know everybody including most of us company, but dependent on single source suppliers and single country. And then when things could not move and they nothing came in as a supply. Right. So how to create second lines. What is the additional cost that you are willing to bear. Right, because China was the cheapest in most cases. But, you know, how do you go to a Taiwan or Thailand or Vietnam to create supplies or find Indian suppliers. Right. To some extent, it was part of it also started coming in people started finding out in suppliers and there is certain additional cost associated because of scale benefits are not available to Indian suppliers. Those are some of the things which are big learnings for companies. Now, I think most of the companies will not be dependent on a single vendor or a single country. So before we start taking some questions that we have Praveen I'll come to you and you know if I have to ask you one anecdote that you know you heard about an investor and you know founder where it seems like you know there was some love loss but the confidence is back is there anything very interesting something that you came across during this past four, five, six months, whatever. From the point of view of that, you know any interesting any any interesting anecdote anecdote you know if you want to share before we go to take up questions. I think one of the things that I would like to highlight is I was speaking to a friend of mine, who is also a big time investor was a professor. And he told me Praveen if in this time, if your models are right your business model is model is right, then products will join the journey so focus on the model, not on the products, the companies that focus too much on the product. And whenever there were ups and downs that kind of failed so if you look at the journey of companies who have survived over the last two three down turns in the economy are the companies who had the right models in place. I think that was a very interesting insight. And I look back now, what we started doing is our model, we started correcting we said, one of the things that we will work is how to make employers more successful or be more efficient with your resources, that is our business model. So the whole idea turned from saying I have a solution a or module B or module C, it is about ensuring that they have an efficient workforce management right now when we started thinking that way we started creating new solutions new ideas. And TCA mentioned about the company started doing supplies the medical supplies, perhaps that was part of the model not a product focus right otherwise you start developing many features in the product, but that does not fit into the model that you want to solve. I think that was a very interesting insight that we got during this time. And, and perhaps, not only in pandemic but in any case, this is a learning that everybody should apply in their journey of creating big businesses is what I strongly believe in. Yeah, very interesting, very interesting. So, you know, we have just a few minutes left so we have some questions, and we'll take a couple of them. So this one for you TCM, you know, so off late we have seen a lot of non Chinese foreign investments coming in. So, so what. So, you know, basically I think what the person wants to ask is that a lot of non, right now the Chinese investment obviously is not allowed so is the non non Chinese foreign investment taking their place or will they be able to fill that gap that we were expecting to be filled by Indian investors. I doubt it. You know, not in the short term to short term. Nobody knows about the medium term. But the reason is simple right Chinese strategic investors and some P investors were willing to write much larger checks. And so companies in series C or plus, which would have been easily able to raise money with with investors strategic investors like a 10 cent or an Ali Baba or a four soon. They possibly their potential definitely got affected. Investors who are now stepping in obviously from Western hemisphere, but that would have actually added to this. So, now it is only replacing it with more and more Western hemisphere investors looking at Indian market was a natural progression with us having 500 million internet users potentially going to one billion the next five, seven years is a natural progression that would have anyway come in. Right, but a big chunk has gone away but that is something that companies have to start adjusting their expectation. It has a very positive side effects also when you know capital is available in a very unlimited way. The rationality in business goes away. Right. It's a question of how long you can discount how can you how long you can continue to cut each other's leg. And you can now hear both. Taking one category example where both are very well funded both are the unicorns like as some act on Swiggy in the food delivery side. Both of them are talking about unit economics, right, which they never bothered about the pandemic because capital was always available. So that's a positive side effect I would say that people are looking at unit economics, building sustainable and profitable businesses. That's a good thing. But also, India can absorb a lot of capital. So to that extent, there is some sort of negative impact. So as an investor I'm not complaining because valuations are not going up insanely. Yes, so what do you mean is that instead of irrational capital whatever foreign funds that are coming in is actually coming in very rational doses and which is keeping the sanity of the market center. I won't call it only rational capital if it is available in unlimited way. It drives entrepreneurs to grow to justify the type of money use of money and the valuation that is given. Correct. And that itself is, then there is more question in terms of, okay, I need to manage it less capital that drives a lot of discipline. Okay, okay. There's another question for the entrepreneurs here is that there will be a suggestion to those entrepreneurs who are trying to raise funds but fail because of pandemic what according to you should be done to win investors confidence. I can share my last six months where we raised and we just made the announcement of our race with jungle ventures. I think the focus shall be on creating a business and and and not on capital. You are you are not raising capital to survive the business. You are raising capital because there is a sustainable business that you are already running. And if you can give confidence to your investors that that at this stage, I'm not talking about a run rate of 12 months to 24 months and hence I look for a capital. I'm raising capital because there is a clear opportunity. I have a running business. This is sustainable. And this additional capital will help me to expand it to x 3 x 10 x or whatever. I think that has to be absolutely clear in my mind as an entrepreneur and my communication to the potential investors. If those two things are clear, I think it should be an easy game, but at DCM can add something on that because he keeps sitting on the other side. Go ahead, after that I will tell you. Praveen's point, it really depends on the market that you're in. If your market has stabilized like it is with edtech, gaming or something, then there's enough funding already happening. I mean, I just read in September, there was funding of over 550 million happened in India. But I'm assuming the question is from someone who's there's still uncertainties in the market. So at that time, the only thing you can do is Praveen rightly said is run. I mean, become a better company and focus on stretching your runway. Focus has to be on unit economics, freezing capex or unnecessary headcount and like cutting the general administrative fact. And another thing I would advise is don't fixate too much on valuations at this situation. You have to discount to valuations because 10, 20% more of zero is still zeros. Yeah, so I think from an investor perspective, who's an existing investor in a company, we have always advised companies, take money and worry less about valuation. So because I think anybody who survives through this difficult period and comes out standing at the end of this will have success written all over them. We have seen tech bust exactly the same thing happened 8090% companies vanish. Those who survived actually went on to become, you know, big companies at multiple times we have seen it. So that is one advice we tell the entrepreneur, don't worry too much about this thing. Second thing, when we are looking at new investments, obviously, many of the VCs in India have got a lot of dry powder, right, we have raised funds in the last two years time. And so we are continuing to actively look at companies. And one of the important things we look at is unit economics, and then, you know, how efficiently they can grow. Not just how fast they can grow. I think capital efficiency is coming back in the criteria also because like I cannot say whether lot more capital will be available in the next few rounds right like doing a 50 million 100 million 200 million round may take longer. So, to that extent there to plan for being capital efficient. All right, so you know we have run out of time but just before we sign out you know very quickly probably in the show when it comes to all together. So is the confidence back in the market between the founders and investors for our listeners who are here so you know so they take away that is the confidence back if they have an idea which they have been working on and you know they think it will work. You know, is this the time when they can unleash their ideas and start working towards you know, go ahead if they had stopped at all. So my my take would be that there is never a good or a bad time for an idea and idea can always work right and it depends on the situation depends on the opportunity and and sometimes the bad times actually through more opportunities than less. So there are new ways of doing things that perhaps people never thought of in past right and this is the time to make use of that. Either the companies who are doing it just keep growing on that spare or look left and right and add more or a new situation that might pop up and just take the advantage and take it forward and if there are good ideas I'm sure like there is dry powder all across the investor circle and people would be willing to fund this and if you open newspaper at least I see some company or the other getting some investment every now and then so it is just that you have to create the right opportunity. I think the check sizes have become smaller but funding is happening in various and I am earlier it was maybe restricted to ed tech which was seeing a lot of movement but I now I see that it's across across sectors as well. Thank you gentlemen and we have run out of time to my team is asking me to sign out. So thank you so much and I will see that you know the bottom is still there and the confidence is there. And as Praveen also said Rishabh said that you know they have already reached almost reached the pre-peak peak level so hopefully things are looking up and despite the 24% contraction we are hopeful that you know India has found resilience and the startup ecosystem as well. So we will be resilient and we will come out of this one. Thank you gentlemen. Thank you sir. Thank you. Bye bye.