 And welcome to likeable science. I'm your host Ethan Allen, here on Think Tech Hawaii. Another beautiful Friday afternoon here in Hawaii. And we're doing some particularly likeable science today. We have with us Michelle Beribari, I got that right, and Stacey Robinson from both from NOAA. And we're going to be talking about monk seals and monk seal vaccination particularly. So it seems like an odd thing. I ran into an article actually in Science Magazine, they had a one-page spread on Michelle's work and had a picture of her jabbing a monk seal. And it just immediately intrigued me. I said, this is good local science, people here in Hawaii should know about and should care about. So here they are. Tell us a little bit about how you got into this. It seems like an odd career choice. Well, my job is actually as a veterinarian for NOAA. I'm charged with overseeing the health of the population. And because Hawaiian monk seals are endangered, it means that we're looking after their health in a lot of different ways. It means that we're monitoring their health for exposure to different diseases. We look at why animals die. We look at ways to also protect their health. And so, vaccinating seals is one of the ways that we think we can best help the population fund itself off against something catastrophic such as a disease outbreak. Okay, good. Stacey? Yeah, and so I'm a research ecologist with the monk seal research program at NOAA. And so I guess I sort of fall into analyzing a lot of the data that we collect and helping look at efficient ways that we're going to go about something like a vaccination program and evaluating that when we do it. Excellent. And we've got a little video that shows sort of what this vaccinating seal is all about. It's a little different from your standard visit to a doctor's office and getting a human vaccination. And here you are. Yeah, so this is one of our co-workers. This is Tracy out on Rabbit Island. So those of you on Oahu are probably quite familiar where Rabbit Island is. And Tracy just gave the signal, which is our silly little signal to remind ourselves that we took the safety off of the pulsar inch. And Tracy's holding the pulsar inch, which is loaded with one milliliter of vaccine and she's going to go poke the seal. Obviously, she doesn't like it. And you know, they really don't, they do react, but then they kind of tend to hang out on the beach, which was something that we didn't necessarily know what to expect. But we were pleasantly surprised that a lot of seals turned around, vocalized, but often just went right back to sleep. They get over it surprisingly quickly. Yeah, like a big horse fly bit, I mean. Exactly, right? Yeah, exactly. That's, you know, it's valuable. They want to be out on the beach, right? They're doing that for reasons of their own health and well-being, presumably, and something basking to warm up or whatever. So it means a lot to them. They don't want to break the thing, go back in and cool off in the water. And yeah, so that's great. That's great that the well looks a little intrusive. It's not apparently deeply disturbing to the animals. Yeah, excellent. That's an important part of everything that we do. We're always trying to make sure that we're having as little impact on the animals as possible. Right. And so this implement in front of us here is the, what do you call this? Yes, so this is a pulsar hinge and it's not completely put together and obviously we left the needle out just so that everything would be safe today. But it is a spring-loaded device and so this is how you load the spring. And after you do that, you always make sure that the safety is on and then inside is a syringe which we would put vaccine in and it fits. It's a syringe specifically made for this and then everything just attaches onto the end just like that and then you charge it and it's ready to go. And we would have a needle on the end of this and then as soon as you turn this into the safety off position, it's essentially, as soon as it comes in contact with the seal, it's going to discharge and it happens really fast. So it's great and it's a small volume. This syringe can hold, this is a big syringe. We obviously don't fill this whole thing with vaccine. So the syringe holds about 10 milliliters. This vaccine is only a little tiny bit of that syringe. So it pops in really quickly and yeah, that's how it works. And it's a pretty common tool used in working with wildlife that you don't necessarily have the ability to bring them into a vet hospital, put them on an exam table, have a technician come in and hold them and the veterinarian gives their little vaccine. This is a much less intrusive way of going about it. Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. Very, very different than probably what you envisioned as yourself when you were going to vet school, right? You never know what you're going to get into with marine mammals, that's right there. Yeah. It is intriguing how our lives take those turns. So let's talk a little bit about this, what you're vaccinating against this distemper virus, right? Now, is this a naturally occurring virus or was it sort of introduced into the populations or? Yeah, it's a virus that actually is not that we know of at all circulating in monk seals. And the reason that we know that is because anytime we do handle a monk seal, whether it's to attach a tag to them or do any sort of health assessment, we're collecting blood samples and that's been going on for decades, far before my involvement with the program. So we're really fortunate to be able to lean on an extensive base of information. And in looking at those samples that have been collected over time, no antibodies in the blood of monk seals have ever been detected to a distemper virus or a morbidly virus. So we do not think that the virus is here or that monk seals are typically exposed to it. And that's actually the reason that it's a threat. So when you have viruses that are routinely circulating around in a population, whether it be humans in the seasonal flu or something like that, then there is some level of preexisting immunity that is existing in the population. For monk seals, we don't actually think they have that. But what we do know is that this virus has caused die-offs of tens of thousands of seals in other parts of the world. And it's also killed large numbers of cetaceans or dolphins as well. So the worry is that should it end up here in Hawaii, we could actually lose a substantial part of the population. Because if you lost tens of thousands of seals in other parts of the world, say in Europe, then for the 1,300 monk seals that we actually have left, they'd be at great risk. Yeah, absolutely. So I see. So you're doing this as a preemptive, preventive health care. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that's remarkable foresight or no as part of that. Because yeah, if this, how does this virus get introduced to these other populations? Or is that not clear? Well, it can happen from different ways. So sometimes we don't always know how that happens. Canine distemper, so that's one of the viruses that you actually vaccinate your pet dogs at home against. And there have been introductions of canine distemper that are thought to have affected marine mammal populations as well. So that's one way. It is sometimes circulating in other populations and how exactly it got there in the first place is not completely known. One of the questions that we have that we're not sure of either is whether or not a cetacean or a dolphin that may have it could actually transfer that. So it's thought that that could go between different types of cetaceans, whether or not it could actually go from the cetacean to a pinniped, we're not entirely sure. Okay, okay, interesting. So then you get the whole sort of population dynamics business you have to be thinking about, right? This is where some data analysis comes in, right? Yeah, absolutely. And so thinking about the pre-planning that NOAA is doing with such a proactive vaccination program before we've even seen the disease, this was based on a lot of analysis that came long before the action. So we went through a lot of, we've got population dynamics data on the seals, how their populations grow and move over time and move from place to place. And then also sort of if you think of the virus population, we've got population dynamics data on these morbidly viruses from other situations where they have out broken. And so some of our colleagues put together some pretty substantial computer simulation models. And so even though we haven't seen the virus here yet, we could say we have ideas about how rapidly it can spread. We have ideas about how long it takes to make an animal sick, how long they can spread it to other animals. We know about seals and how much they contact other seals and how much they could spread it. So we're able to use those computer simulations to sort of play out these different scenarios. And we can say this is what a disease might do in the population. And we saw those results were like, wow, that's really frightening. We really should do something about this. And so then we can use those same simulations to say, okay, well, so once we see disease, then we'll go out and start vaccinating the rest of them and we'll be fine, right? And then they just say, no. And probably that'll be too late, basically. Basically, yes, it would be too late. And part of that is, you know, much like you have to get your kids boosters for some of their early childhood vaccinations, we've got to give the seals one dose of vaccine, and then give them a booster, you know, three to four weeks later. So that lag time is just a virus can spread too far within that period of time. So our sort of simulation models were able to tell us that if we're going to have, you know, if we're going to have the ability to vaccinate and really keep the population protected from a disease outbreak like this, we've got to do it before the disease ever gets here. And so that's where we came up with then this plan for sort of the pro-vilactic vaccination use. And you have to obviously cover a certain percentage of the seals, you have to get a certain percentage of vaccinations and keep that some X percentage. And roughly what is that? Well, it depends on how many seals and how much contact they're in. In Oahu and Kauai, we have, you know, it's sometimes it's nice to live on a small island. And while we would love to see more among seals, it's nice to deal with a small population because the numbers are really manageable. And so based on a population of about 40, 45 animals on Oahu, we figured to be almost certain we were going to have what we call herd immunity. So that's the number of animals that if you vaccinate this many, most others will be protected because there just aren't enough susceptible animals and the populations are really spread disease very far. And that number is only about 20 to be pretty much certain that we're going to get that herd immunity number. And again, we use these simulations and we say, well, we haven't had this disease yet. So there's uncertainty, right? What if it's more transmissible than we thought? What if it's more deadly than we thought? What if they're in contact more than we thought? And so we can look at those ranges. And so we see like with eight animals, even it's like, oh, quite a few scenarios, you'd be okay. And 15 animals, even more scenarios and by 20 animals, like, yeah, we're going to be okay in most scenarios that get us. That's a great example of the whole uncertainty in science. If you knew all these answers in advance, then we would just fix the problem. So you've essentially then identified roughly 20 seals all around Oahu. And you know that these seals, they are tagged basically. A lot of them are tagged. Some of them have a scar that's distinctive. We've got an amazing network of volunteers that are out combing beaches on an almost daily basis. And boy, they are so good at identifying the seals in their neighborhoods. And it's often the same seal comes back the same place at the same time for weeks at a time. It'd be nice if they were that reliable. Pretty reliable. But they're not on a schedule. Maybe not quite that scheduled. No one's given them a paycheck to show up. But you've tried to hit basically 20 seals, then you go back and hit this same group of 20 again within some window of time. That must be a little trickier, because getting the first time, you have no particular timeframe to it. But once you started a clock ticking on us at work. Yeah, exactly. And I think when we first started and getting the first round of animals, you know, we would do things like say, oh, what's a good day that works for everyone? Well, Tuesday is good. Okay, we're going to go out Tuesday and we're going to find the seals that are around. We're going to vaccinate those seals. Great. Tuesday it is. And you know, you have a plan, you go out, you do your thing, then you go back, you do work in your office the rest of the week. And then when it's time for boosters, you just get a call. Right. Oh, I recall it. And she saw this seal at this place, drop everything, go get it. Right. It's now in that window. And so we better jump on it right away. Yeah. Interesting, interesting. I was going to say, I'm sure you guys both have good stories about encounters with seals. But before we get to those, we're going to have to take a short break. So Michelle and Stacey here from NOAA talking about vaccinating the seals. I'm your host, Ethan Allen, Unlegable Science. We'll be right back. I'm Kaui Lucas, host of Hawaii is my mainland every Friday here on Think Tech Hawaii. I also have a blog of the same game at kauilukas.com where you can see all of my past shows. Join me this Friday and every Friday at 3pm. Aloha. Aloha. How are you doing? Welcome to Ubachi Talk. Gordo the techs are here. We're here every Friday from one o'clock till about 1.45 when we talk tech with many, many great guests. I got Andrew the security guy who helps me co-host. And I got Poppy Chulow who comes in once in a while to help us through the show. So please come join Ubachi Talk every Friday. Angus will be here too. So remember, like we say at the end of every show, how you doing? And you're back here on Unlegable Science. I'm your host, Ethan Allen here on Think Tech Hawaii. With me today on Think Tech Studios are Michelle and Stacey from NOAA, Veterinarian Data Analyst, talking about monxial vaccination, all the great reasons to do it and the why's and where for's. And it's a pretty, sounds like a pretty interesting job on all sorts of levels finding out how many monxials vaccinate, when to do it, how to do it. And as we saw in the video clip earlier, it looks like an interesting part of your days when you actually have to go out there and poke them. A little different from the standard doctor's office visit. But I know we had, you had said some other figures to me about that we're showing something, I think about the population dynamics going on. The network? Yes, exactly. Yeah, so this is kind of just what we were just talking about, about deciding how many and which seals to vaccinate. So on the, gosh, I think it's on my left on the screen, the really connected jumble of points there. So that's an actual social network diagram of the monxials on Oahu. So this is based on the actual sightings that we get when people call in and say, I saw this seal at this beach or when our volunteer network fills out, you know, their data of what seals they're seeing and what places we're able to figure out, which seals are in contact with each other. And it turns out over time, most seals on Oahu sort of, there are some sort of hot spots, but seals get around or one seal, you know, meets the seal and gets around to another one. So they're really, really connected. So from a social behavior standpoint, we're like, wow, that's cool. The seals kind of hang out, they get around from a disease standpoint. We look at that and we're like, oh my gosh, every one of those lines is a way that the disease could spread from one seal to another seal. So we're not graph, the points are seals and the lines are connections between them where disease could spread. And so basically what we're doing with vaccinations is we're trying to break up some of the lines in that diagram because if a seal is vaccinated, it can't spread disease from one to the other. And so what we have on the other side, at least on my right side, is that sort of the after diagram. So those gray dots out to the side, those are all the seals that we vaccinated. And so the little connected bit in the middle are the seals that still are susceptible and the level of contacts that remain. And so you can see just looking at, you know, from the before to the after graphic, you can see how much we really took apart that contact network and took apart so many of those pathways where disease could spread through these vaccinations. And so now, but those great spots, the gray dots, there are still seals that are in the population, they're still in contact. So if they're the seal that gets contacted, the chain of potential disease spread just stops. And so that's kind of how herd immunity works and how vaccinating some ends up protecting the whole. And so we were really happy with the outcomes of our vaccination program because we were able to get enough seals that we think we're in a really good position in terms of protecting the whole population with the number we vaccinated. Excellent. So this looks like it's a very complex undertaking because there's lots of people who have to be doing lots of different kinds of things. You've got what sounds like an extensive network of volunteers, you guys with your considerable expertise and multiple skills, obviously. But the program is really, I mean, what you're doing is really part of just a bigger program to protect the monk seal population. And that involves other work. You have researchers who are out in the Northwest Hawaiian Islands where more monk seals live. Actually, the main bulk of the population is out there. Although as we were talking about a little bit before the show, at times you're actually moving seals back and forth. And perhaps you should go into a little bit of the reasoning on that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, one of the reasons that we move seals around is when they need help. So we're fortunate that seals that in the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands where we may only be there for certain months out of the year and be there on board a ship, now we can bring them to a facility on the big island that's run by a partner institution, the Marine Mammal Center. It's called Keikayola and it's a facility where they can actually care for these wild seals until we have the ability to return them to the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands. So any seals that come down from the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands are always returned back to that region of the archipelago. And it really has enhanced our ability to target one of the other threats to the population, which is malnutrition. All right. And that will be particularly in the younger seals, right? When they're just finished nursing but they're not really adults yet. They're probably not as good at getting food. They may be a little more vulnerable to predation. And some of them just aren't quite up for it, right? Well, and they also just get out-competed when they're smaller. They're getting out-competed by in the archipelago out there. There's a lot of large jacks and sharks, so big fish that are competing with monk seals for food. So the monk seals put the work in to, you know, turning over a piece of coral and getting out an octopus and a shark or a jack will come by and scoop that up instead. So, unfortunately, the little juvenile seals can tend to lose energy, struggling to get their food and not end up with that caloric benefit going back in. So then if you find such a seal, you just, of course, walk up to them quietly and pick them up calmly. Enough of no sack. Kind of what we go for. Well, generally, if they're in bad enough shape to need to come in for assistance, then they actually are not, they're not so feisty that they're difficult to pick up and bring back down. But, you know, they do still present some challenges of what we start to do with them once we get them aboard the ship. And a triage sort of thing is to provide them nutrition through a tube that we put down their throat into their stomach and give them electrolytes and fish slurry, basically a fish smoothie, that sort of thing, just to get their GI tract restarted and that kind of thing. And a fair number of the animals that we do need to treat are actually pups that were not weaned at a high enough birth weight that we think they're likely to survive until the next year. And that's based on a lot of information that's been accrued over time. So we kind of have a good sense as to, you know, if they're a little bit on the small size or really small once they've been at the time of weaning, then we can monitor them for the period that we're out there. And more likely than not, those are the ones that are going to come in as well. Because he'll be out there for a while, so they'll have a chance to check on them sort of repeatedly and make a judgment before you leave, whether you should take them back. And then you say you hand them over to this facility, they keep them for a few months? Yeah, several months again, because we're going to return them to the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands, we need a way to get them back out there. And we generally are fortunate enough to have a cruise on the NOAA vessels that go out twice a year. And so those are the primary ways that we're moving these animals back and forth between the wild and rehabilitation. But once in a while the US Coast Guard will ask them to help us out and if they have a mission that they can pair transporting seals with, then they will also help us out. So we have done that a few times as well. Excellent. And so they get this sort of rest and recreation period and gain a lot of weight and are much better able than to survive. That's great because there are only, you say, 1,300 monk seals, that's all there is in the world. That's all there is in the world, and they're all in Hawaii. Yeah. And no historically, this is Hawaii the only place they've been known to live, are there other populations of them elsewhere? There are related species of other monk seals, so there's a Mediterranean monk seal in the Mediterranean. And the closest relative to Hawaiian monk seals were the Caribbean monk seals, but they went extinct, I want to say in the 50s or 60s, the last one was seen. But so they probably, those sort of sister species, probably diverged when Panama closed off the link between the Pacific and the Caribbean. Okay, so they've been isolated here for a long time. They have, yeah. Well, that's great that you guys are keeping their populations going. And there are a lot of kinds of seals though, right? What makes the Hawaiian monk seal special other than just being another kind of seal? You know, I think they're the only really tropical seal. So if you think about other seals that you know of, you know, you're probably thinking about things in cold water environments that are chasing large schools of fish and getting food that way. And so Hawaiian monk seals have a really different existence. And that's one of the reasons we see, you know, they can be sort of living on this edge and we'll see things like nutritional limitation because it's, as it turns out, it's kind of a rough life making it as a tropical seal. And so instead of chasing down, you know, big bait balls of small fish or something like that, monk seals are very specialized on foraging on the bottom. So that's kind of a different thing. And it's just their, their habits in warm water versus a cold water seal are pretty, pretty special for the Hawaiian monk seal. I hadn't thought about that, but it's true. You generally think of seals as floating on ice floes and you see them in association with icebergs and, right, and indeed the famous, the bigger members walruses and all are very strict, an Arctic animal, right? Yeah. Okay. That's great. So when you're, I can make my question asked earlier, how did, how did you sort of get into this end of things? What brought you into this work? I think our stories are probably pretty different. I was very interested in marine mammals for as long as I can remember. And that's probably not news to a lot of viewers out there. I think there are lots of people that at some point or another consider growing up to be a marine biologist. That's what I wanted to do. I actually was fortunate enough to be involved in a lab in North Carolina in college, where I was helping with response to stranded marine mammals along the coastline. And many of those were dead animals. And it really taught me that there's a lot to learn from looking at an animal and trying to understand why it died. It can help you understand the health of the population overall that you're trying to understand. I mean, marine mammals are so cryptic compared to a lot of their terrestrial counterparts. They're very difficult to study because they're in the great big blue. And so that was something that I found really compelling. And it was also something that got me interested in anatomy and physiology and just understanding how animals worked. So those things combined, ultimately, I decided that the way I wanted to go about that was to be a veterinarian. And yeah, I think my path to Hawaiian monk seals was maybe a little more circuitous. I think growing up and all through school, I always really wanted to do things with wildlife conservation and ended up getting into sort of the research side of it because there are just too many fascinating things to learn. And so I ended up jumping around quite a bit in undergrad. I was studying alligators in Louisiana for my masters. I was studying bears and genetics in Alaska. In my PhD, I ended up studying wildlife diseases in deer in the Midwest. And so it just kind of ended up that once I got over here, there was kind of this here's this species and we need to know things about their genetics. We need to know things about diseases and things that affect conservation. So all the puzzle pieces just kind of it. Hey, well, excellent. I want to thank you both for being here. This has been just fascinating to learn about what you do, how you do it and answered a lot of questions that were running around in my head. I hope you've enjoyed the chance to share some of your learning. I'm sure our audience is the better for her. So thank you both and aloha. We'll hope to see you next week on another episode of likable science.