 This week on the podcast. We're lucky enough for our guest to be our very own Timbo aka Timothy aka Dynamic Shoulders Is it a get a head of handstand? Is it just the one of the one of the hosts gets to answer a few more questions? And for and for those that are super intelligent with this they will know that that means that that by veto makes me Question master, which is always an exciting occasion. Hi. Hi big shoes to fill Jack. Oh because after the last question must have had in in He did all right. He did okay Feedback's been good Before we get cracking into talking all things shoulders We just want to mention and just remind you some of you have already signed up because you're very excited about getting started kicking off your January in style 11th of January the next Online course that we're doing six weeks Bodyweight basics, so if you are into your training you want to be of all of this is done completely at home You don't need any equipment or anything at all But six weeks of body weight basics with me and coach Owen starting on the 11th of January on Tuesday evenings You can join those six weeks Live you get to watch them back on replay if you miss one or if you can't make any of them You can watch them all on replay and then all of the different exercise and workouts are Available your lifetime access to all the like short tutorials of each of those broken down It's a hundred twenty-five quid if you're not a member of the scorecard It's 99 quid if you are a member and if you're VIP Take your emails because you've got a very special offer to make it just 75 quid Yeah, that starts place a limited starts 11th of January and they already started to book up So if you're keen look at for the link in the show notes We look forward to seeing you there off January in style Let's not jump on the New Year's resolution bandwagon just yet But what I'm gonna say because it applies anytime of the year is what something which makes habits more effective or habits stick is Accountability so having something to turn up to for six weeks could be enough to put a big Seismic shift in how you go about your training so for that alone and the awesome content coaching. That's an absolute steal Brilliant so Let's get into this week's podcast talking all about Shoulders this is where it's awkward because normally the guest doesn't have to say roller-jingle, but I I'm doubling up today multi-tasking roller-jingle Listen players You're listening to the movement strength and play podcast by the school of calisthenics here are your hosts Tim and Jackal So Tim bow Let's let's set the scene those that you those that follow you on Instagram those that don't like what why aren't you following? Also Tim's private account on in Instagram up with the links in the show notes for those Let's let's set let's set the scene because a lot of people have heard us talk about the story of like why we got into calisthenics and you know a lot of the time people will probably think that We had very similar starting points to some degree that we did but the the onus and the reason For For starting actually was quite different in that I was very much bored of lifting weights having finished played rugby and was looking for Something a bit new and a bit exciting to get my sort of love of training back And there may have may have been a slight element of that for you, but it was a very different Reasoning and a little bit more of a I like to think of it as a scientific experiment But what just give us just set the tone for people set the scene of Why did you actually try to learn to do a handstand in the first place? And we'll start to unpick some of the benefits for people Yeah I'll keep this relatively short so that the people that heard this story before aren't reaching for the forward button on there on their podcast Listening device and those that haven't heard it Basically, I had a history of shoulder dislocations from playing rugby So as I said before I don't actually know I stopped counting how many times I dislocated my shoulders First time was when I was 20 years old at university and then that kind of continued through to about 2008 9 I think they're like more than 10 times. Do you think? Probably be a fair guess about 10 I think it's used to go out when I've and I got I'd make a tackle Well, I try make a tackle This attack miss attack When hit the floor probably I put my arm out too far and didn't get my body behind it was probably part of the problem I wasn't great at tackling and So yeah, I dislocate my shoulder and then hit the ground and then the force of the elbow hitting the floor with that Just pop it back in so often I would dislocate and go back in so I'd walk off the pitch being like our shoulders really saw I just dislocated it but then that was kind of first round I had surgery and then I went off scuba diving to be an instructor for a few years and So I've got into weight training while I was away Strengthened a lot of things up and did quite a lot of shoulder work during that time because I knew it was a weak area for me So I really enjoyed shoulders and tricep type work because it's kind of felt like I was securing something Which was a it was a weakness and then when I came back from from traveling I started to trip playing rugby again, but I'd almost done I've got a load more muscle bulk So then when I started dislocating again the shoulder then stayed out so often So the the strengthening work that you've done didn't actually seem to that didn't do anything to stop you dislocating it No And the caveat to that was they because I continued to dislocate what happened was the original repair failed So when they went into the second surgery, I was like lying they did gave me a regional block in my neck So you're awake so they've numbed my whole arm so I could and then they showed me what they were doing on the TV Screen so I was like lying there watching and the guy sticks the camera into my shoulder And then you could see the sutures from the original repair light just floating around So where there was like a tear in the labrum imagine like you've got a Saucer and a teacup on top of it the saucer is like the scapula and you've got this really small lip Where the teacup sits and that holds the head of the whole the shoulder or the humerus in place That there's a there's basically a tear in the labrum Which is that lip so imagine like there's a section of the teacup which hasn't got a lip on it anymore So if the teacup goes in that space, it's gonna fall over. It's got no security and that's right some suction presumably Yes, it basically just seats it So the the labrum in your on your scapula deepens the socket by 50% and this thing is tiny as it is So it's really not a very because you've got this trade-off between mobility and stability of the shoulder You can't have like we've got in a hip like super deep kind of like socket and lots of ligamentous tissue It's holding in place. We still get lots of moat movement, but not like we do in the shoulder and So yeah, I basically got a tear in the labrum So imagine when the shoulder went into a difficult position or into a certain position and then force was applied It would just slip out of the socket and that's how it would dislocate So the strengthening work then was basically had served the purpose in some ways But once I dislocated what it felt like is everything just tightened up and spasmed and just that held the shoulder out And there was a couple occasions where physios were trying to put it back in and they were really struggling because I kind of got Quite a lot of upper body strength at that point But I really had to consciously just switch off and relax so that they could put the shoulder back into place So that happened and I had my last surgery. I was trying to recall the days. I think it was like 2020 2009 2010 I think something around that there's early days of where I started my strengthening conditioning career And then I actually dislocated again the snowball in 2014 So I don't know whether my shoulder is still got some color has now got a structural issue Whether that the second repair has failed Did I tear the labrum again? Because it's quite common when the shoulder dislocates if you do it enough You're gonna get some kind of like structural deformation of the of the joint whether that's the humor head You get a dint in it. So now it doesn't look the right shape. It doesn't fit as well And then that makes it easier for it to slip out of place Or we get a tear of some of that the softer and connective tissues and stuff that are Holding it in place So that's kind of that's the back to the backstory to it and I started originally to try and learn to handstand because I'd done so much physio and It never got me to a place where I was comfortable to start throwing weights overhead or Like to go back on the rugby pitch because they get you to a point of being pain-free Moving well, and then it's like right off you go And that for me was like there was a big gap then between what I actually Could do at that stage and where I actually felt I had confidence because you otherwise you go okay fish with physio What was I doing before bench person rugby? I'll just go back to doing those things which like we're probably part of the root cause of the issue in the first place So calisthenics and learning to handstand was kind of twofold one I was by the scene in just outside of Cape Town I wanted to look at the ocean while I was training So I thought I'm gonna do some body weight stuff and the second thing was if I can do a handstand Then I have some confidence at my shoulder stable that for me So felt like a sense logical progression based on having done all the band work all the kind of like low-level Stability ball balance exercises and the single arms captions and none of it really had kind of gone This feels like a joint which you can go and chuck 90 kilos through for example which is what I wanted to do as a as a Emerging strengthening conditioning coach. Yeah, and the I guess that handstand position where the arms Overhead is like you is a is a is a vulnerable position for you to to like arm reached out to To dislocate and and just talking about that whether some people, you know Some people listen to this will have will have experienced the dislocation Themself and be like cringing every time you hear you say that other people be not sure what exactly what that might be like And as you said like sometimes you were describing there is like oh it pop out and then it pop back in but then when I had a bit more muscle It's a bit difficult like I have witnessed Physio trying to put a shoulder back into to want someone I was playing with and there was two of us one holding the gas and air Whilst whilst this huge bloke of a man shout out to Rupert Cooper is now who's now actually A chef and has been the the head chef at our retreats like he is a bit Yeah, he is a big big big strong Relatively as a chef lovely guy, but as a real player like angry tough guy and he was screaming like a baby It was probably the worst thing I've ever witnessed It was just seeing someone in pain like it's not it's not a nice thing And in terms of having this unique ability to dislocate your shoulder lots of times To do with hyper mobility and not like what have you ever has anyone actually Said oh you're hyper mobile. Is there even a test to do there? Is there like a Mark is there anything where they can go? Oh, yeah You the measuring X that means you're hyper mobile or not or is it just like are you've got loads of range? Like where where because some people be yeah, you know we get people at work just like oh my elbow does this But then and so but they're not my but this other body part of me doesn't seem to be quite so hope in my bow Yeah, I don't to be honest. He's good question. Yes as far as I understand it from a physioperspective There are tests for hyper mobility I've never been diagnosed if that's the right word as hyper mobile Because if you look at my often was like we do a lot of work with swimmers You see swimmers in their super bendy elbows And sometimes it'll be in people's like knees particularly where you're seeing like that bow leg You're the test that they do is there sometimes they'll take the wrist and like how far have you got which Like right kind of range of bending the thumb down towards the forearm hyper mobile Honestly, hi potenicity, which is It'll be high po mobile So Yeah, so that was like so yeah, I've never known someone's ever said that to you But I have like a good ability to just generally move So I've kind of put it down to I've got laxity in my capsules or my connective tissue is probably quite stretchy So I dislocate my hip when I was 12 years old That shouldn't have happened like that's an that's an injury Normally how that happens in a car crash when the the bonnet shunts into the The knee inch and pushes the hip back or what happens to old ladies not many 12 year old active They're just getting out of the back. No, it came forwards. That's even more kind of like Unusual so it came out at 90 degrees of where it should have been so I've got the x-ray We've got the feet the the the pelvis and then my hips sitting at 90 degrees of where it should have been So that shouldn't have happened and all it was was someone fell on top of me And I think on top of the ball which kind of pressed into my hips. So it kind of just like popped it And my well we probably weigh about 40 kilos. It's not like a heart. That's not even the high Yeah, I was training with the gauge group above so the guy was 12 months old for me. Yeah I think he was a big he was a big 12 year old. He was a big 12 year old. Um, yeah, so So that that happened And then how painful was that by the way? Yeah So the story of that that about you don't have bad in like I played rugby from the age of like eight And you just don't have bad injuries Because it's just the collisions as a say to have that at like 12. I don't imagine like everyone You know the other people react You know, there's some things that you can just like traumatic life events that you just don't forget So I can picture the part the pitch that we were playing on at Mercer will be club Remember like I remember the falling as part of the mall. I remember the people who were there. What were you doing in a mall team? That's another question. I've done that. Um, and then I remember like lying on like rolling over my back and being in like Really serious pain and then they got to the stretcher Like chicken wire and two scaffolding poles You know is like your local rugby club So they carried me into the clubhouse and the paramedics arrived and his paramedic was like hellbent on his I need you to straighten your leg so I can put a splint on it And I was like for about five ten minutes He's trying to get me straight in my leg and in hindsight night go you can't straighten your leg if your leg So you're like they gave me like he didn't know it was disagree. No, he didn't know See it wasn't like sticking out at 90 degrees. It was kind of a funny angle But um, but I like basically managed like move my ankle my extended my my heel was slightly and that was enough He goes that's just go to hospital. So they put me in it in the in the ambulance and gave me some gas in there We got there and the x-rayed it and they were like, oh my gosh So my the claims of fame. I think it was Prince Charles was like dislocated his shoulder or popped his collar bone It's something like playing polo the surgeon that did that put my hip back together again So touched by hands of touched royalty. Wow I know I've actually heard Charles on an in on a podcast a comment And he was saying at the surgeon that sorted my shoulder So that was 12 and my shoulders are just like I just generally had quite a lot of laxity So if from an anatomical perspective like the capsule that sits around the shoulder It's job is basically to tighten up at end ranges So when you go overhead the tide that the static structure is one of the part of the static structural Static stabilization systems of the shoulder So if you start to go into outer ranges or you move there quite quickly the capsule would do a certain amount of tightening to try And stop that that happening. So for people when we say when we say capsule Tim What for people what what is what is the capsule? What is it made of? What is it? Is it muscle? Is it what is it? Yes? I think it is like connective tissue So it'll be that's probably that's a very big term But like lots of collagen lots of fibrous kind of connective tissue facial connections that sort of stuff So it's like and that the capsule also around the shoulder has got some they call they are ligaments But they're actually that they're not like separate bands of ligaments. They are like thickenings of the capsule effectively. You can kind of like Cut the capsule away and leave the ligaments as they are But it's it's not a lot going on there really in terms of that actually static stabilization And does it have like contractile properties like is it yes? Yeah to a point because like it's when it starts to lengthen you'll get some level But you're not going to get it's not like a muscle isn't contract like a muscle, but it will tighten in certain positions So to give people a visual representation if you think about when you've seen somebody who's a good Olympic weightlifter Like maybe that like a higher level on the Olympics or whatever when they throw the bar into a snatch position It looks like that shoulders hits a dead stop like it goes boom That's the end of the range the bars kind of roughly overhead And I can just hold that shape When I throw a snatch I Basically have to decelerate the weight to put it into a good position because if I don't that force going backwards would take the shoulder Too far just go to a full. Yeah, so it goes but ends up too far behind my body Then you've got a lot of weight pulling you in a really bad angle So that's kind of like that's that's that is what I think the issue is is a laxity of the tissue of the capsule That's what they did the surgeons said when they did my hip as well as like my capsules were quite loose I've got quite a lot of mobility there, which is a gift in a curse, right? So I'm 41 years old and I'll sit in astagrass without doing and I do zero Mobility work pretty much apart from some phone rolling a little bit of kind of like movement prep So for what I do is a strength and condition coach my physiological makeup Serves me perfectly for for being able to jump in front of a group of people and just be able to go Right. Here's a great quality movement. I can do that But for my own training when I'm trying to load structures. It's a bit of a problem. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, okay, so So as we as you sort of you touched on it goes a little bit more like where do we where's where have you taken it from? people the the whole concept of Did what supposed to do to stop the show this came when I went back into stuff like it would you know, it didn't fix it that the handstand principle You know was something you test and tried out. Have you ever since being able to do a decent handstand? Have you ever dislocated it since then and then and then also what is what's you know, I've seen it and Some people that follow you individually will see that The level of detail that you've now gone into around the shoulder and it's not, you know, so I guess this question is more like so would If you were to start again It's 2016 again. Would you just jump would you know, you basically just jump straight into your handstand Would you have like done stuff to build into that like where does that where does that sit in your mind having learned over the last What six years? Good question. So my current reflections around this our training was progressive Because I didn't have any option for it to be any other way So I started learning to handstand from a fog stand position So I spent a significant amount of time because I had no kind of like skills in handstands It wasn't that I really could just kick up and then risk that end range position So this is kind of like well and it's shaped a lot of how we teach handstands But I basically learned it from a fog stand and I thought I'm just going to push from a fog stand into a Handstand position if I can do that and rather than worrying about that kind of the real Like just kicking up and trying to hold it. Yeah, so that's that's good I've not really necessarily thought about this from the dislocation point of view that you're We're saying that that end position was like the goal but equally the most Worrying to dislocate, but you'd never actually really went there until you'd built up the The strength the control and and the confidence that it was okay Yeah, I mean I was doing handstand push-ups at the same time as well But if you think about that shape you still got an opportunity to stay out of the end ranges So you can kind of like I was probably arching my back at that time and your feet were on the wall Like that makes it that takes the stability demand out of it And the other thing is it's interesting around like closed kinetic chain handstand things is if you think about like where the force is coming from So my shoulder would probably dislocate down and out of the socket forwards, whereas in a handstand I'm keeping a relative amount of force upwards So I'm probably holding the shoulder in the middle or towards the top of the socket Even when I come down the force is still kind of like gonna be sitting I'm not allowing that shoulder to drop and then when the elbow comes down I'm actually in a safer position because I'm not less likely to kind of now Dissiccate through the bottom of the socket effectively So I've very much kind of like just explored some different positions But because I was so bad I had to earn the right to go and play at the level that I can now play out And it was like I remember going from a frog stand position Which is an almost closer push-up in terms of shoulder angle and as I was like leaning forwards and pushing out I was probably pushing back at 45 degrees, which is like an inclined chest press Which again is not the kind of like real risk position for me So I've spent quite a lot of time doing that stuff until I started playing like truly overhead Into some of the stuff that we do now like flags But that was probably the handstand was probably the less worrying The more worrying one was when we first started trying to learn to have to do flags H3 like putting my hand on that bar. I was like this is this now feels exactly like the position that I don't like The force is a bit different on that bottom shoulder Into the bottom of the socket yes, but it's pushing my shoulder downwards like towards a body Which was a place that I didn't like But I think actually I ran a workshop at the weekend just gone and we had a similar sort of question and and it was It wasn't any There wasn't at that time a specific strategy of I'm doing this and I know the exercises I now need to do to go and solve this shoulder issue that I've got Experimenting yeah, I could program that for now for somebody go these are the progressions that I'll play with at that time it was like I was playing around in positions that we just sort of were exploring and Experimenting with as you say and and it just happened. I think over that time I did enough to develop the new muscle control to be able to now kind of stabilize The shoulder and and that's the crux of it right like when it comes down to it If you've got a shoulder, which has got it's liable with dislocation And you've got like any level of feeling of instability Probably comes down to dynamic stability like how much neuromuscular control or how much Ability if you got to keep the humerus in the center of the socket And if you think about you've got big muscles sitting on the outside pecs and lats and anterior deltoids these guys like Well, they want to play and produce force if they are overpowering the stabilization systems That means that those big muscles come start to pull the humor head around the socket Now that causes a problem because a margin for error in the shoulder is so small Whereas if you are take that a level deeper and we've got rotator cuff and we've got Some of the any of the sort of periscopular muscles and muscles which attach onto scapula itself and take those big plays out of the equation Now we've just got an articulation and a Synchronicity of these muscles to hold the shoulder in there or the head humor is in the middle of the socket And you've got the right kind of strength balance between the bigger muscles You've now got a shoulder that can work because the intricate bits that hold it together think about it as the chassis is Rock-solid and now you can go and move if that chassis is weak Like you've just got an opportunity for things to start to crumble and and that's what I think we Re-read did on reflection as we started to explore lots of different types of calisthenics positions and I've never dislocated since Yeah, no and Yeah, bravo for that and good for that and hopefully look really there wasn't it like it wasn't Like it was it was a thought experiment as you you rightly say. Yeah, but then any any any good Thought experiments, we don't we don't know what the answer is, but it's done off the back of a theory that's like If x y z then it should make that that should work and then you're testing it out So for a lot of for a lot of people some of the For all of us and I'm interested in what are some of the common things that you see now That people could start to think about with their with their training for so whether they're whether they're in actual like pain Or whether their shoulder just doesn't feel quite right one feels a bit different to the other or just get it every now And again, it feels a bit niggly in this like what are some of the common things that? That you see that people are lacking around the shoulder and paired with that question is sort of a case of a lot of the time I know when I first like got into Got into personal training strength decision and understanding that to me It was like we'd hear that and we'd see this on sort of YouTube tutorials all the time We've got like this this sort of like Two black and white or maybe these are two separate questions answer this one first maybe that We hear of like retraction and depression of the scapula and then we've got protraction and elevation And we'd commonly hear those four things One question is like is that the only thing that is going on or is there are we missing something there? And I know that I would have had this years ago where you got the you heard it that many ways around that It seemed to suggest that like retraction and depression is good Retraction elevation is bad. That's where a lot of people will have will have will have will it maybe is still there now So is there anything else within that and then is that as I'm sort of suggesting maybe isn't quite as black and white as good and bad yeah, absolutely, so We would talk about with this sort of stuff is the scapula thoracic joint So that the scapula sits on top of the rib cage and is effectively held there in space by muscle there's a little bit of ligamentous tissue at the top which is kind of attaching on to the Chromium process and whatnot, but ultimately it's kind of held there by the muscles that support it So that gives it a huge amount of movement and just to kind of orientate ourselves around it Think about the scapula and the humor head together as a glenohumeral joint Those two things need to work in quite close synchronicity So the scapula is effectively adjusting and reacting to movements of the hand the shoulders job is to position the hand So as you start to your brain goes I want to reach here The scapula's job is to keep contact with the humor head the little foster on the scapula is where the little dish that kind of teacup That's broken up before it's trying to stay in contact with the teacup if you want to I love that that the I've not thought of that the The another is that end process things have going the purpose I would have just you just made me think I was like the reason my shoulder moves is because my shoulder moves, but it's like then it's You're you're basically wanting to move your hand I'm not really thought of it like that. You want to move your hand. You don't really want to move your shoulder It's just the shoulder facilitates the hand movement because you can appreciate the the importance of the hands in Everything that we do. Yeah, but now we can get well later We can go a little bit maybe if you want to and go well now like what's the brains Interest in that because now we come task outcome So if you like what are you trying to achieve with your hand is then the shoulders gonna facilitate that so we can Then be a little bit more purposeful about stimulating the central processes by thinking about what job I'm gonna do with the hand to get the shoulder to them play the game Yeah, and so yeah, that's gaps kind of like sat on the rib cage floating around in space held by muscles So they have they say there's like 12 cardinal movements of the scapula. So we have retraction We've got protraction of the opposites and I won't go through more because people just lose it But the major ones that often people talk about as retraction and then protraction So the scapula basically moving like laterally if you imagine that around the rib cage So you squeeze your shoulders together to try and pinch your pound coin You're in retraction if you try and reach out in front of you with your hands going at the end of like a bench press or something And really push your shoulders round. That's your protraction movement. You then also got upward and downward rotation So the scapula is going to move up and around the rib cage. That's going to be Often found in overhead pressing movements. So if you take your hand straight overhead We're thinking about upward rotation bring it down downward rotation Abduction is where the scap can move to the side and adduction it can move backwards and forward elevation depression up and down So there's this and then it kick tilts as well. So you've basically got this kind of yeah, you've got a You can always move it all mobile. You can move anywhere. It won't kind of go anywhere So Yeah, a lot of people have heard backing down and that retraction depression that kind of serves in some positions Like a bent over row that would be a pretty good cue or a horizontal a row and pattern But if we want to go up and overhead we need upward rotation So we want to go up and round that's that that's how the scapula is going to stay in contact with the humorous as we take Our hand overhead Otherwise if the scap says like locked in and down and we're trying to go overhead We're then going to force the scapula or stop the scapula from being able to maintain that contact with the Humorhead which means that the brain will then find a different way to get the shoulder into position where you can get your hand Overhead and that could be by hiking through the upper trap to elevate it to shift the whole thing up Because we're lacking the rotation to get around. So they just find a different solution. The brain's amazing at that the problem comes if if you've got like Muscle imbalance around the shoulder so it's not moving well if we've got some kind of like Issues which goes the detail of this but around a subacromial space So the space it between the chromium process, which is like the roof of your shoulder think of it like that everyone You can feel your AC joint on top of your shoulder The space between that and the humor head that is your subacromial space When it's a healthy you probably will have about a centimetres worth of space there If you have left less than a centimetre You're going to start to have some problems because you've got tendons and some other structures like a bursa Which sits underneath that chromium process? So if your scalp can't go up for example, it can't rotate upwards and Let's say that you're kind of like a bit anterior shoulder Dominant you've got too much tension in pecs lats and anterior delt your brain then goes well I can't get the scapulae up and round so I'm going to find a way for you to elevate a little bit in there We're just going to bring that humor head up underneath the chromium process pinching the structures underneath it And then that's what people will often call impingement I was effectively just like shoulder pain We're squashing structures because we now can't articulate the scapulae into good position But trying to find a solution to the end outcome, which is to get into a certain position So to your point that's kind of all sounds quite technical people go Okay, I still know why is it to what I should be doing to him But the point being that we don't do enough work which is focused on or Respects the design of the shoulder so the tagline for dynamic shows I've called it is it's performance driven by design We can only get performance gains if we understand and respect the design of the shoulder and what that means is we have to start thinking about Restoring and maintaining good shoulder movement and control and then scaling it in line with what our performance objectives are going to be So if you want to go and snatch a hundred kilos Like you're going to need to make sure you've got good movement around the shoulder And it can get into a good overhead position and then can you still do that when you're starting to throw force down? And and that will require Upgradings of both the stability or mobility stability and the strength processes in order to do that But we just go and chew away at strength based movements and we forget that we aren't actually upgrading the stabilization system directly As part of that process Yeah Well, I think and I actually think that a lot of people have heard will be listening to that and just the concept or the idea of like Okay, there is quite a big difference in the movement when I'm going overhead compared to when I'm like Doing a row or something that the where my I'm the difference between the shoulder going into flexion rather than extension requires Because there are two completely different things requires quite a difference in how my shoulder blade my scapula moves So if we've never really thought about how that that shoulder when we go overhead when we press we're doing our handstands Whatever it is that we're doing needs to have that upward rotation and that key that that the way you described There's going up and around just the idea of getting that in your head and trying to picture it I think for some people just Picturing that when they're doing movements will help will help massively so yes You've gone and spoke technically about that by actually think those little those little bits those little snippets and those little queues there For a lot of people will help things just feel a little little smoother Yeah, the timing gets messed up So I've seen a lot of shoulders where if you imagine that the scapula when we start to move overhead The scapula for the first portion of that movement say gonna go like hand up by your side and try and get overhead position It shouldn't move It should stay still for like about 30 degrees and then it will start to hopefully rotate What a lot of people will do is they'll just they activate through like the retraction So rhomboids and mid traps and if the scapula pulls in towards the spine and then then after a bit It then releases and then we'll move up But it won't get up to maybe the 60 degrees of upward rotation that we need it might hit 40 degrees for example Because this is gone like in first rather than going out Yeah, possibly you've not gone on a string to pull it around or the mobility But you're also going backwards when you want to be going forwards So the timing is almost out and that's not helped by this back and down cue because people go right back and down pinch Hold it and now go. Is that also how they have probably developed stability so it's like this thing's moving It's like right the first thing we do is like get it stable. So they're just like Yeah, they retract. Yeah, could yeah exactly and it could be that we've got say the part of the job of the lower traps is to It's to be able to sort of stabilize that shoulder blade an early portion of the movement Well, if it's not working properly then the mid traps and the rhomboids are probably like we've got this And then we've got to come work through so the lower trap is actually going to stabilize the shoulder during that first portion of the movement And then it assists with the upward rotation So when when it's strengthening conditioning coaches and trainers will often cue people and go Are we see it like fight engage mid low traps back and down like? Yes, mid low trap or mid lower traps are going to be different mid trap is a retractor Lower trap is gonna actually primarily the job we wanted to do is an upward rotator It can obviously pull the scapula down with a little bit based on it like the the line of pull But we actually need to kind of understand that Back and down is no good if we're trying to get up around overhead Yeah So stop squeezing them down and then the other thing that people will just yeah that like is that If you if you've got shoulder problems, I'm gonna give you one cue to take away Go and do some rotator cuff work external rotation work and go and do some serratus anterior work So getting that scapula around a rib cage and there's there's lots of exercises that you can find to do those sorts of things But it will be a game changer for your handstands and any overhead mobility because you will auto instantly by doing that for a period of time Improve the fundamental things around the shoulder that there's two force couples It's basically the basic mechanics of getting the shoulder into a good position It's rotator cuff and upward rotation the scapula do those things and you're gonna have more success than you probably already having And you may well clear away some pain Yeah, yeah, I always I know you've done you've done this a few times with People that you're working with but also people could do it we talk about this for When you're trying to understand what's going maybe do some problem solving on yourself with with your handstand or with your human flag Or things that you're working on training wise, but even just videoing yourself with you know If you happen like with your shirt off-seek and and your back You actually see your own scapula moving on yourself as you take your arms through different movements I think Pete like oh, it's it's fascinating if you if you are into if you're into your training you want to understand what's going on like videoing yourself and Not doing anything just literally moving your arms and just see how it see see from behind how it's what's actually Moving I think is is helpful for sure. Yeah, and then you know, then you start This is where the shoulders are maybe a little bit different So maybe some other joints in the body that we try and program for is he has to stop peeling layers back Like it's difficult to fix it and go that is the absolute thing because we change it And then there's all these other kind of ways the shoulder can move and it might then kind of like throw something else up But the awareness of what you're doing with your shoulders is actually like we don't know it Because if we're in a two-way changing mirrors and we're doing some lower body stuff I can see my my foot knee and ankle Yeah, so foot knee and hip when I'm when I'm squatting if I'm pressing over head I can't see because I can't correct it Yeah, some people like scapula winging off the back of the ribcage cut looks like a stegosaurus They're like it feels fine. Well, it's a bit painful But like a lot of problem all of a sudden like cracking We've got no contact with the scap on the ribcage, which is an issue Well, I think the flip side though if by by videoing your back when you're doing something with your shirt off So you can see what's moving You will actually see it but then whereas if I video if I you know did a naked Move but I looked at my ass with a video without any pants on like yeah, it'd be nice But and I move my leg around I'm barely gonna see anything other than my leg moving Which I could see with had my tracksuit bottoms on Jeremy. So it's it's actually It reveals quite a lot And it is fascinating to see what's what's moving about Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely particularly I think also like those are like well into their light training and their anatomy and stuff like you What you see in a textbook and then what you see on your actual body can be a little bit like different a bit Like oh is that actually is is that my upper trap like it looks a bit doesn't look like the picture on then the nice picture in the Yeah, in the textbook and it takes a little bit of fixing because they're Changing your kinesthetic awareness of how you're moving with your shoulder is hard Like it takes a little bit of time and this is probably to one of the points you alluded to before is that We become so much about intensity at the moment around training and if you're not training hard and absolutely like in all and this is kind of like it spread across many different areas of training and I Think we're losing the mindfulness of it and in as particularly in sort of like I'm a court general population I don't mean that at all disrespectfully but In contrast to an athlete's program where he's in a professional environment where they've got a strength and conditioning coach Like we were able to completely control and dictate the pace content progression of a training program Whereas a lot of people now are going to train and there's a culture of I need to train hard. So we don't Spend the time Necessary on ourselves and taking a little bit of responsibility for some of this sort of stuff Like we kind of push it hard until we get injured and then we end up either Compromised to a point where we kind of like have to take a week off or I can't train that movement Worst case scenario. I've got to be so bad that I go to a physiotherapist But with shoulders what you'll find is if you can imagine a continuum where you've got like injured at one end And then the other end of spectrum you've got like full progression like getting after it in the middle You've kind of got niggling and compromised which is where most people find themselves. I've got a shoulder niggle It's not bad enough to go to a physio Yeah, but it's not good enough that I can actually go and start to push things on and people kind of serve that line between Kind of getting a little bit better than getting a little bit worse and This is not a lot of a training at the moment Doesn't contain a lot of stuff which is actually really good fit for people with shoulders in terms of the progressive Approach to building that dynamic stability that I talked about before but it takes a little bit of care because it's such a fine Balance of getting it right you want to get to stage where I'm at now where like I've done enough of that kind of work Where I actually have got good shoulder mechanics So my my upward rotation is good like I don't have any pain I've got full range of motion and I can control through like concentric eccentric patterns So now what happens when I go and train Instability movements or dynamic stability movements on things like the rings My shoulders are getting the doses of what they need because I train well and move well based on the system That's kind of well-primed. Yeah If I don't have those things I'm missing a piece if I then go and try and so I don't need to do a lot of corrective work I don't do a lot, but I do just because training in a certain way using certain types of exercises Maintains it for me. That's where I want to get people to and then I can go and do Whatever else is I want to do. Yeah, now I guess that if Someone could go like seeing like the you know I know you really like the the pipe push-ups on the rings with your feet elevated and go and see that go That's a great exercise to do but if doing that with poor mechanics Just means you're going to be upgrading the system of your dysfunction You'll just get even better at being dysfunctional or or it will just be more painful. Yeah So like understanding the yeah understanding the Where you need to get to first before it's not necessarily or what I'm hearing is it's yes There are good exercises to do that are going to help, but it's about you being able to understand those movements and feel those movements before we worry about Actually doing something that's going to make it stronger. There's no point getting stronger in the dysfunction that you're already at Yeah And this is where I think like going back to the first thing we spoke about I have a theory that the shoulder given the right environments will self-organize. So I didn't do Loads of external band rotation work when we started calisthenics What I did was started to kind of change and play around With just different things in different positions, which we're promoting good quality movement Now bear in mind I come into this off the back of quite a lot of physio work So I've probably done a fair amount of that work as it as it was but if we if we create the conditions for better quality movement and we Consistent and disciplined with that We have to respect in my mind This is where we can get a little bit kind of like maybe new age But like we have to respect that the body will adapt to the stress that we place on it So if I'm constantly challenging dynamic stability in progressively more and difficult overhead pressing patterns Okay, if I've got chronic tightness in the rhomboids, which is sticking the scapula back towards ribcage I might need to do something about that so I might do some some release work But if I'm just constantly doing something which is promoting a little bit more external rotation kind of work Or the need for the rotator cuff to suck the human head into the fossa or I'm doing some stuff which is creating upward rotation And I'm training eccentrically. This is another great thing about calisthenics or for the shoulder is that you go and take a Olympic weightlifting or crossfit environment the amount of eccentric control that the shoulder does is like minimal We throw a bar. We drop it back onto the shoulder. We throw a bar. We're not actually decelerating weight Now that's a huge issue For controlling the scapula mechanics as we come back from an overhead position and getting ready in a good position to then go And press again Every time we kind of like coming down. We haven't got control So I'm pressing now from a poor position rather than coming down in a handstand kind of a pipe push-up position Entering a good shape plus all the benefits of the the environment and we stay away from the details of What we term as clothes can't it chain, but having your hands fixed creates a conditions for Promoting stability and control We just start to kind of like Will the shoulder just find a solution with a brain find a solution activate the bed the muscles better because it's trying to find a solution to instability for example Because we see it like you stick some up on a set of rings and you go like do a front support You just like learning ring dip do a front support the first time they do it They're gonna be all over the place and then they come back in and a week later have to practice it and actually can hold it pretty still Now what's happened there? The brain's gone. Well, I need to press some different buttons if I'm gonna get this joint to stabilize I'm gonna use these things instead because those other ones weren't working very well Because I'm risking the structure integrity by the shoulder kind of diving around a lot of place So I am I am kind of like what I don't want to do with this Kind of journey into kind of analyzing and understand the shoulder more as go It's all about band external rotations people because that's flipping boring and people don't do it So can we do a little bit of that because that's going to protect the mechanics of the shoulder? But ultimately can you go to a place where we're doing maybe weighted vest ring push-ups like just horizontal push patterns That's probably better than the bench press. It's flipping difficult And it's probably I'll give you better for the shoulder because you're constantly having to readjust and reactively stabilize the joint which is what the shoulder wants From a performance perspective and then what does that do for your bench press if that's what you want to do or your like strength based movements wherever you want to go because you've upgraded the Stabilization system so the brain goes with the joints more stable. I can let you have a little bit more force Yeah, no, definitely Well, it's I'm sure there'll be people that are Listening to this and going yeah, like I that that that group that you Said like sat in that middle portion where it's like I'm not necessarily going to go to a physio and haven't done Actually, I've known for the last two years and Michelle has been a bit and I'm not big It's holding me back a bit, but not enough to Yeah, go go into go into a physio or certainly don't need surgery or anything like extreme like that But I would like to I would like to try and sort it out I would like to have a few things in my program that's gonna that's gonna help with that Where do people where can people sort of get assistance and help with that symbol So you can find us at dynamic shoulders comm and it's dynamic shoulders on social as well We are doing some we I say we it's car and my wife and I a teaming up on this one So she does all the the she does all the nuts and bolts Then she basically pimps me out is how it's working at the moment. She sends me out to work And so we're doing some online Coaches so you can get out you could do full shoulder analysis and then we write the programs and it's kind of touch base via an app It's an education program as well So if you're a coach or practitioner in the industry that wants to learn more about this sort of stuff from a strengthening condition progressive perspective It's not a rehabilitation physio course It's gonna be more about how we help strengthen fitness coaches to get their clients pain-free Give them some more stability in their shoulders help them to get more confident So if you've got if you yourself or you know anybody who's struggling with those kind of issues of pain instability lack confidence Then have a look at the education course and we've actually got a webinar on the 15th of December Which you can register for it's free and you can come find out a little bit more about what we're doing from an education perspective Great stuff. Well, we will we'll put the links in the show notes to all of those things and yeah If let's say if you if you only do anything is like That what get a bit of more of a deep dive in that webinar for sure Perfect. Okay, that's been useful. I've actually looked I get I'm quite into this stuff at the moment So it's a little bit of a download but I hope it made sense. Let me know if you've got any questions Yeah, thank you everybody for for listening and Just to mind you are as well that if you are into your body weight training We have the six weeks body weight basics starting on the 11th of January Places are limited or is that to book up you get a discount if you're a member 125 quid if you're not a member of it It's lifetime access to the live sessions watch them back on replay and all of the tutorials and workouts in there for each week As well So if you are a member of the school cast and it's your online membership with us in the dashboard is your code To get your discounted rates of 99 pounds if you're VIP member It's all hidden and hush-hush You've got a personal email from me about about getting it for just 75 quids. So check out Your check out the email and if you are a VIP member and you're like, I can't find about really want to get involved Email me day. Yeah. What's my email just David at school guys. It's calm. We should have changed. It's a jack-o years ago There's definitely some stuff in that course as well guys that is going to be really good for your shoulder health So there's some of the stuff that we started off on using the rings getting balancing on the floor hanging from bars That's exactly where we started And that my kind of shoulder rehabilitation or progressive rehabilitation program started So if you have got some kind of stuff you want to do your shoulders, you don't need to get some stability You don't need to get some core training You need to get your pelvis talking to your spine and your Shoulders and all of that is included in body weight basics So it could be a really interesting place to start and see dick you toe in the water of calisthenics and progressive body weight shoulder Rehabilitation type work. Yeah, that's actually a good point. I didn't I haven't said that it is it's full body the body weight basics It's not just a body. It's everything Great stuff And I believe if I've got this right would come it's not that long until Christmas So I hope everybody is feeling very festive and getting in the mood and we will see you Next time for a little bit of Christmas Festivities Bring your sherry Jaco bring bring bring your Santa hat and your elf socks Yeah, and then also look out for look out for the Christmas New Year Excitement that's potentially gonna start on Boxing Day to keep an eye out for that people. That's a little bit of a teaser Or something to keep your eyes out full Can I sign us off you go for it Timbo keep exploring your physical potential with movement strength and play Class dismissed